#408 – Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen

32:13It's really special. Yeah. Well, the mothership has some magic to it. Yeah. Yeah, it's really cool. It's totally different vibe, but like super awesome. You've said that Lennon Cohen is a songwriting inspiration to yours. I saw you perform this song, Chelsea Motel, brilliantly on the internet. It's about for people who don't know his love affair with Janet Joplin. How does that song make you feel? Great. I love that song. which aspect, musically the melancholy feeling, the hopeful feeling, the cocky feeling, all of it like every single line has a different feeling to it really. Yeah, but as a whole piece, I appreciate it so much.

33:03I actually lived at the Chelsea Hotel. And when Leonard and I first met, that was one of the first things we talked about was the, But you know, I lived there where all that stuff went down before they tore it apart. And yeah, it's just a beautiful song. You know, it makes me sad the way it ends. I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best. I can't keep track of each fallen Robin. I remember you well in the Chelsea hotel. That's all. I don't even think of you that often. You know that line? I don't even think of you that often always like breaks my heart for some reason. Like how, if I'm a whole short last thing, like certain love affairs can be.

33:54Just kinda like, huh? Yeah. Do you think he meant it? I always think he doesn't, he's trying to convince himself of it. It could be both. Or either, you know, I mean that's the beautiful thing about poetry and lyric is that it's supposed to be open. Yeah, I wonder if it's also open to him depending on the day. you know, definitely. I mean, the thing that he taught me or his advice to me was when you're writing a song, look at it the next morning, like just first thing and read it, and then take a walk, smoke a joint, read it again. Go have a fight with your, you know, daughter, come back, read it again.

34:39Get drunk, read it again, wait a week, read it again. So from every state and every position, the wider the lens is going to be from an audience perspective, you want things to mean multiple things. So there's one line I read somewhere that he regrets putting in the song. So I've got I asked you about it's pretty edgy. It's about giving me head on the unmade bed. Yeah. I think that's a good line or a bad line. I think it's an amazing line. It's one of the best lines in the song. Yeah, right. When he put that song out, obviously, he didn't regret it or he wouldn't have put that lyric in the song.

35:19I think what happened was that eventually word got out, either from him or from somebody else that the song was about Janice Joplin. Yes. And so at that point he regretted the indiscretion. So it wasn't that he regretted how great the line was. It was just, you know, the privacy factor. But then again, Leonard's known for rewriting his lyrics in his live shows. You'll see a bunch of songs with like new lyrics. And he didn't do it because he didn't like the old lyrics. He just did it because he could because he's Leonard. and it's like why not have fun with words, the way musicians have fun, you know, improvising solos on stage.

36:03And he could have changed that line in Chelsea Hotel after in retrospect and he never did. I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel, you were talking so brave and so sweet, giving me head on the unmade bed while the limousines wait in the street. It's so powerful. It's a powerful line, it just kind of shocks you. Well, that's what's so great about it. But also heartbreaking because it doesn't last. Especially actually to me it adds more meaning once you know it's Janice Joplin. It's like okay these two stars kind of collide it for a time. Yeah, but why is it heartbreaking? It could also be just beautiful that they had a little fling.

36:43Yeah, everything is beautiful. Thank you. Even the dark stuff. What's not beautiful? Everything is beautiful. If you look long enough and deeply enough, what were we saying? Oh, what do you think about Hallelujah? Like what do you think about the different songs of his? And why'd you choose Josie Hotel to perform? Because I lived there and it meant something to me to sing that song and actually when I put that song out on YouTube, that's when he sent me an email. He's like, hey, do you want to come over? and this is how you guys connect it. No, we met in a rehearsal studio. I ended up watching their whole rehearsal and sitting there next to Roshi, his 105 -year -old monk, which was really great.

37:35I remember when I was shaking his hand, so I was just me and Roshi on the couch watching Leonard with his band. And we shaking hands. And he grips my hand like this, so it doesn't let it go. And he said, he looked at my eyes and said, where are you? And I said, in the handshake. Yes. Wow, he passed the test. He passed the Rochy test. And then what's funny was that the next thing that happened about five minutes later was Leonard Cohen got down on his knees and opened up a jar. I'm not kidding you of caviar. This is not a callback. Well, it isn't a way. I know. I know. the month away. He started feeding the monk caviar.

38:17Yeah. And that healed my Montro Jazz Festival sadness forever. Be it. Do you think there's a kind of like weird like there's a sense of humor to it all somehow like like what does that happen? Why is that happen? Why like why stuff like that happens or that the Jeff base speaks to you? What why do we need to know? You believe in that stuff. And what's that? That there is a rhyme to the whole thing somehow, like, there's a frequency to which magical things of that nature can happen.

39:03I'm divided about that answer because I think just things are flowing. I don't, I don't I don't think anything's planned out. Like through time, it's like an orchestra playing of different experiences and so forth of senses that are somehow connected. I think everything's connected. Yes. But predetermined means like... I don't believe in that predetermined stuff necessarily. Which is different from whatever your previous comma is. Uncom is a whole other kind of conversation. I don't mean commas and like good comma, bad comma, just comma meaning the collection of things you have acquired over this lifetime or other lifetimes just whatever that whatever that is is going to influence your future.

39:56Well, you had a really interesting trajectory through life. Maybe I just read it that way because I've had a lot of stuff happening. That's like lucky. feels lucky. Sometimes I wonder like huh, this is weird. It does feel like the universe just kind of throws stuff at you with a chuckle. I don't know, not you, the proverbial you won. Yeah. You say you sometimes watch classic movies to inspire your songwriting and you mention watching taxi driver. I love that movie. And I think you mentioned that you were a love song based on that movie. So Travis Bickle for people don't know is a taxi driver and is deeply lonely.

40:43What do you think about that kind of loneliness? I think that loneliness is a product of feeling separate from the world and separate from others and that the less you experience that separation, the less you'll feel lonely. I'll often have you felt lonely in this way, separated from the rest of the world. It's less and less every single year because I work very hard at it. Feeling a part of the world. It's just meditating and studying scriptures. Don't you think that, I mean, isn't there a fundamental loneliness to the human experience? Just. In what sense? That all the struggles, all the suffering you experience is really experienced by you alone.

41:35Isn't? Maybe at the very bottom it's not. It's kind of all the same stuff. You didn't feel alone in 2016, 2017? I felt like I lost a piece of myself that I had given to somebody else. And I feel like people feel that in romantic exchanges, whether it's long term, short term, you give a piece of yourself. And then if that person dies or you break up with that person, you feel like you've lost that piece of yourself, which I feel like is very different experience than if you just or opening yourself rather than giving a piece of yourself, you're just opening yourself to somebody or something. So opening is fundamentally not a lonely experience?

42:26No, it's a loving experience. And then losing a piece of yourself can be. Yeah, because you can't really, you can't lose a piece of yourself if you are the same self as every other self. Right. Right. So if you see yourself as together with everybody, then there's no losing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful way to look at it. You said that there's something healing about being in an empty hotel room with no attachments except your suitcase. You know, a lot of people will talk about hotel rooms being a fundamentally lonely experience, but you're saying it's healing. It's healing. Yeah. because I just get to sit there and not worry about all this stuff.

43:12These meaningless attachments. I've got my suitcase with my necessities. Well, my three suitcases sometimes. And I can just sit there and meditate and just be with myself. And it's so awesome. And usually like you plan your touring for like, you know, you kind of get the business aspect of things taking care of in advance so you can kind of just really be flowing day to day on a tour. And it's a great feeling. It's funny because this last tour that I did, we didn't have hotels every night. We had hotels maybe like once a week. And I hadn't done that before. Usually it's frequently in hotels. So I didn't get that space that I'm really used to get.

44:01You missed them. I very much missed it and had to be very creative. I ended up going into the back lounge whenever one was asleep and meditating back there or before I even woke up. I actually joined, there was an online meditation retreat that was happening. It was 12 hours a day of silent meditations that happens once a year. and I love this particular group of people. And they knew I was on tour, so they're like, just join when you can. And so I was on the tour doing the meditation retreat at the same time. It was so fun. It was so fun because I was like in the back lounge, the bus is like moving around like this.

44:48My laptop, the zoom is like, and I'm just like sitting like meditating. It was like, yeah, this is the shit. Silence. So they're all connected to zoom and just doing 12 hours a day. Yeah, yeah. That's cool. These particular retreats that I started doing, it's not straight silent. There are, you know, silence sits every hour for 50 minutes and then there's some talks. And like these people that I've been working with are really cool because they're integrating spiral dynamics into zen and it's like the coolest combination. What spiral dynamics? Like Ken Wilber, you know Ken Wilber, integral theory.

45:32Yes, can you explain a little bit? So he I vaguely know him because of kind of this notion that everything is one like everything is integrated that every field has truths and falsehoods and we should integrate the truth. Yeah, it's hard to explain how it applies to this type of meditation because it's in the guided parts of the meditation that this whole like colonic theory is like brought in about like transcending and including every aspect of your being because he talks about like levels of development and like it in consciousness and how like this applies to like like every single religion or non -religion that there are these levels of development and from all the go all the way up to enlightenment, no matter what you start off with, it could be Christianity, Buddhism, Vedanta, doesn't matter like anything.

46:40Then I just like it when everything is and everyone is taken into account. It doesn't matter where you're coming from, that there is a way to be self -realized, is self -actualized. There are self -actualized beings from all walks of life with very, very different paths. There's no one path. I mean, in this particular retreat, I do. There's like a lot of silence sits and then there's some guided meditations. But I've tried a lot of different avenues and they're all great. So I wouldn't just say, just try this one thing. Like I've studied like the uponashads, like with Vedanta teachers and gone through those texts for months and months and stayed at Monasteries and how they break it down makes total sense to my mind and heart and more importantly than my mind, my inner knowing, it resonates.

47:32That's inner knowing. Yeah, because your mind is the thinking tool. It's not you, you're not your mind, you're not your thoughts, your body. you know, so it's like just the you, like that knowing that you have that's kind of when something resonates there, that's usually when you go with something. Wasn't living in a monastery like. It's the best. What are we talking about? Like what? It's just an empty room with like a tiny single bed and a sheet and pillow and that's it. That's it. You have to eat the same thing as everyone. What's the food like? What is it? Very plain, cheap, basic food, which is, you know, funny for someone like me because I'm I'm I'm pretty particular about my time.

48:20Yeah, you brought over like like 20 different ingredients. Yeah, so what was the like day in the life of Tal and a monastery? You wake up at 5 a .m. to the bell and you go and meditate like constantly. So the till bedtime other than two meals. What how are you sitting? Are you in a group? Is there other people there? And you're just sitting there? Well, if you're talking about the Zen monastery, because I stayed in Zen monastery, and I did a thing with that, the guy I was telling you about that kind of the integral Zen thing where he uses Ken Wilbur's work in combination with Zen, And that's a little bit different because he does talks.

49:08We talk about things. And that's very separate from the Vedanta monasteries I've stayed at, which there's very little meditation in terms of sitting silently. Instead, we are meditating on the scriptures like the Upanishads and we're like diving into that. What were the differences that take us from the experiences that the two different, the integral one and the meditating on scriptures. They both incredibly have been incredibly helpful to me, because the Vedanta, um, anytime I go into my head about something, the answer is there based on this knowledge. And with the Zen monastery, it's like, you just got to put your your butt in the seat and sit and wait and maybe something and we'll have maybe it won't but just keep sitting and it's very disciplined and you go through a lot your body's purging a lot there's there's a lot and you don't necessarily have the answers to what is happening and so I think for somebody like me I need both I need to be in a place where there's complete uncertainty but complete discipline and just doing the regimented thing.

50:39And then there's the me that feels very satisfied from an analytical standpoint, understanding what's happening, like what is the gross and the subtle body and the, you know, like I want to understand these things about what it is to be a human. So I like them both. Understand what it means to be a human. So that like having that patients and just sitting with yourself helps you do that. Yes. More so like the analysis part. Also the actual okay got it. But sitting with yourself there's no better education of like facing every demon and it's all going to come out and it's not going to be pretty.

51:23But then there's things that happen on the other side of it that are so profound. to have you met most of your demons? I've met the demons that have come out. Oh, there might be more. Who knows? Yeah. Well, to be continued. What, since I think I heard you say that you wrote a love song after taxi driver, what kind of love songs do you write more of? Broken. So you're a songwriter first for people who don't know. they might think you're primarily a bassist but you're wrong. So do you write mostly broken heart ones or like hopeful love songs in love songs about to be in love songs soon to fall in love songs?

52:10Well the last time I put out his pre -salevics monetary is to what that is. A lot of pain though. There was, yeah. Some of it was storytelling and some of it was real experience and it's always like a combination of things. Like I serve the song. So sometimes you use your own life experience to tell a song and sometimes you may watch a movie and part of that script merges with your own experience and that tells the right story for the point you're trying to make in the song. So it varies from song to song, like in terms of how like what a biographical it is. Yeah, I was stuck at the end of the taxi driver when it's an ambitzy because Travis becomes a hero she tries to get with him and he rejects her.

53:09Also, that's powerful. My favorite love songs are the ones where you're not sure it's about romantic love or love of God or love of life or just pure just love like I was thinking like George Harrison writes songs like that like what is life or like Bob Dylan's song that George Harrison covered if not for you. Yeah, just grateful, grateful for his love. Right, right. That's kind of like where, well, what I'm experiencing now, and so who knows, well, I'll end up coming out. Do you've been writing this kind of? Yeah, I've been writing a little bit. I don't have like an intention of like putting something out in any particular time frame, but I'm just writing and letting things flow.

54:03and yeah, I love this like a bunch of like Leonard Cohen songs to where you're like there's so many ways to interpret this song and there's so many ways I just love songs that don't aren't like so like specifically about one thing. You know I I really love the song to play it to listen to it wonderful tonight by Eric Clapton and I thought it was pretty straightforward yeah and then I had a conversation with the Airquine Stein because a mutual friend of ours and he told me it's not about what I thought it's about. Oh yeah, what did he say? It's a more complicated story. It's actually a man. So wonderful tonight is a story about a man being just finding his wife beautiful and pushing it throughout.

54:55But he said it was actually a man missing his wife is imagining. that she's lost because of the decisions he's made in his life. So it's pain. And he had a long, beautiful, airquence time -like explanation of why. I love this. Have you and Eric played music? No. We just hung out and had very long conversations about everything. These are a bit of a musician, you know? Yeah. Okay. You picked up the guitar when you were 14. Let's go back. And one interesting thing that just jumped out of me is you said you learned how to practice in your head because you only had 30 minutes. Your parents will only let you practice for 30 minutes.

55:38I read somewhere the call train did the same. He was not the practice part, but he was able to play instruments in his head as a way to think through different lines, different musical thoughts, that kind of stuff. I just maybe can you tell the story of that? Yeah, I just grew up in an environment that was focused on academia. And I fell in love with guitar and really just wanted the focus to be that. So my limit was 30 minutes a day for, I don't even remember how many times a week might have been every day or five days a week, whatever. So your parents didn't want you to play more than that? No, and so I just learned how to visualize the front board in my head and I'd practice all day in my head It's kind of like you know the the The Queen's Gambit the TV show with Anya Taylor Joy and she's just like she's it on the ceiling.

56:38I used to do that with the front board Yeah, just practice and I actually recommend it to every musician because If you're just practicing here you don't know what is more dominant necessarily, is it this or is it your motor skills? If you just take that away and do it here, you know you've got it. So I'm glad that that happened and that I learned how to do that. And in terms of like learning fast, because like I had to like learn how to, well I had to try to absorb a lot of information in a short amount of time when I did have the instrument. I kind of would do things in bus, even in that half an hour, I would just go play for a couple minutes and then I'd stop for like a minute.

57:29And then I'd do it again and I noticed there was a huge difference between the first time and the second time whereas if I just kept repeating stuff, it would be much slower. But what did you do in the wind up minute? Just hang out. Just integrate. Yeah, my brain was telling me, like, just chill out for a sec. That's enough information. Let me take a second to integrate that. That's what at least what it felt like to me. And the most hilarious thing happened a couple months ago. I know your friends with Andrew Huberman. So he put out some clip, which was a part of one of his podcasts about learning.

58:07And he said that there was some research done on learning fast and that if you practice something for You know a minute or so and then you let your brain rest for 30 seconds or a minute that in that 30 seconds or a minute your brain Does the repetition 20 to 30 times faster and in reverse? And I was like, whoa, that's so cool because that's what I used to do. And I was like, now there's science that proves that, which is really cool for musicians to know that that's a good way to practice efficiently. Because you know, like some musicians, they're like practicing for six, seven, eight hours a day.

58:52I've never done that. I've never practiced more than an hour a day, even now. Like I've just, just that's my technique. And it works. Are you also practicing in your head sometimes? Now I'm not practicing as much. I'm more always writing songs in my head So that's why I like silence. That's why I love being in the empty hotel room and being alone or you know Songs come to me while I'm showering or walking around Doing the dishes or Occasionally when I'm hanging out with friends or like comedians and people just like say shit And I'll be like that's cool. I'm just like jot it out my phone. It's not always musical.

59:30It's sometimes lyrical It's more lyrical than musical now. Because it's like, for me it's like, well, there's so much music in the world. If I'm going to write a song, I want the song to be about something interesting. And so, yeah, the words matter to me. Yeah, and the right work and it has so much power. It's crazy. Like we said, we learn a lot of calling. And then they're often simple. The really powerful ones are simple. And like you when you mentioned hallelujah, you know, he wrote like 80 firsts to hallelujah before he narrowed it down to like four and it took him like 15 20 years to write that song.

1:00:10So some writers will do that like and then other writers just vomit it out and it's and it's beautiful. Like I've heard that Bob Dylan or journey Mitchell, they're like their fast writers. They just kind of just kind of come out. That makes me feel so good to no longer call and wrote to me versus of that. Like that, that was so deliberately crafted, extensively, rigorously crafted. He just would spend months and years and constantly refining refining. You have songs like that for yourself? Or you can refine for many years? It's song dependent. Some just flow out and it's like, oh, there it is.

1:00:51Everything's there. and then other songs, it's like you might have started up with music and there's some words that come out and then trying to fill in the rest of the word. Sometimes it can be like a square peg in a round hole and other times it's like, oh no, I can, you know, it depends. Sometimes it becomes like a math problem and hopefully it doesn't. Because you just want to say what's right for the song. And usually when you write it all together, like the lyric and the melody and the chords and everything's kind of developing at once, at least for the first draft, that's very, very helpful.

1:01:33Like, Songheim used to write like that, just like he wouldn't move on until, like, he would just go this way. Whereas for me, it's just like, I'll just go with what seems to be coming naturally and I'll just let it be what it is. and then you come back and you say, okay, well, what do I have to do to this now? Look, what's needed? Just through our Linga and the learning process,

1:01:56what would you recommend for young musicians and how to get good? What are the different paths a person can take to understand it deeply enough to create something special? I think first and foremost, understanding why you are playing music, If it's because you have something that you're trying to express or that you're just in love with Expression itself without itself. Those are great reasons To to start this journey the why should be I think the why is really important because it's a jagged lifestyle and There's a lot in it and so if you don't have your purpose if you're not centered in your purpose than all that that jagged lifestyle is probably going to get to you.

1:02:49Jagged. It's that word. Yeah, it's jagged. It's all over the place. It's uncertain. It's one thing, one moment, and a completely different thing, another moment. You never know what's going to happen. And if you thrive on variety, which I love variety, then it's perfect. But also, every human being needs a certain amount of certainty and structure. And so it's the certainty can come from your inner knowing, knowing that you're doing exactly what you want to be doing and knowing what your purpose is in doing it in this expression. Otherwise, you're just kind of like a leaf blowing in the wind. Like in the early days, touring, just playing clubs seems like tough.

1:03:35Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of like the physical labor aspect of it is really hard. Playing on stage to two people or two thousand or twenty thousand, that doesn't make a difference. I mean, it makes a difference to the ticket sales which informs how what level of luxury you might have on the road or not. But other than that, it's just people there listening to music. The music doesn't change. Does it make a tough one? Is two people versus two hundred? No. So even if nobody recognizes whatever the thing you're doing. No, because the idea is to be doing like having a great conversation on stage.

1:04:16The audience can come and go. Yeah. I mean, I always like, at like this certain points in shows where I'm just like, I consciously am like, oh, yes, there's an audience over there. Because I'm so like wrapped up in whatever's happening on stage. You forget yourself. Well, maybe I'm remembering myself. Oh, damn. Call back somehow. Feels like one. Okay. You think every instrument is its own journey. You play guitar, you play bass, you sing just the mastery of an instrument or less avoid the word mastery, the understanding of an instrument. Is its own thing? or they somehow like physical manifestations of the same thing?

1:05:03Both. You know, like every instrument has its strengths, beauty, limitations, range, like possible range that can, you know, be extended to some degree or another depending on who you are, like trumpet or something, you know, like certain people can hit higher notes than others, blah, blah, blah. But that being said, we're all playing the same 12 or 24. However, you divide the octave, that many notes. You know, we're all playing the same notes. So in that sense, it's all the same thing. It's just music or better yet. It's just art or expression. But yeah, every instrument has, you know, you got to go through the physical aspects of it, the motor skills and all of that.

1:05:52And hopefully you get through that really quickly so you can get to the expression quickly because if you get stuck in just that first phase, that's be really boring. Yeah, but that's a pretty long phase. The technical, the technical skill required to really play an instrument. For some people, it's a long thing and some people are short. It very, very much varies. it might have to do with like how you learn and getting to know like your strengths in learning, like more oral or more like is it more like what's your strength and playing off of those strengths. So for me like it was like I was saying earlier it was just an intuitive thing that I knew I can feel when my my brain is full, like that it needs processing time.

1:06:47And so I listen to that, I don't push past it. Even if it's like one minute and I do something, I'm like, okay, science. And then I come back in it and I trust that it's going to be there and is there. So just trusting yourself, I think is really important. Trusting that you know you better than anybody else is going to know you. So that's the kind of thing with with teachers that can be either really, really helpful and great or really not great. I'm primarily self -taught. I've had amazing mentors of all walks of life and I think unbelievably blessed that my mentors are some of my favorite musicians on Earth, whether it's Leonard Cohen or Jeff Beck or Wayne Shorter, whoever these people are, they are my favorite musicians.

1:07:36So not everyone has that opportunity, but what the opportunity that we have now that I didn't have when I was starting is that everything's on YouTube. Like every interview with every genius, like you don't need to necessarily have these people in person now. I mean it and and then I'll say to that yes and no. I agree with myself and then I don't agree with myself. And the reason is, I do believe that there is something that happens when you're in person with a master. In some cases, that there is something transferred that is not intellectual, not spoken, there's something else that happens that can happen.

1:08:23That I've experienced. And I really value that. And I think that applies to specific disciplines and also generally, like I've been around Olympic gold medalists just to hang out with them for several days. There's something about greatness. There's a way about them that kind of permeates the space around them. You kind of learn something from it. Even if you don't practice that particular discipline, there's something to do. If you're if you're able to see it, I also like what you said about the playing stuff in your head that it forces you to not be lost in the physical learning of the instrument.

1:09:11I think that's one of the things I probably regret a little bit. So I played both piano and guitar and I've become quite over the years technically proficient at the instruments, but I think my mind is underdeveloped because of that. Meaning like I can't really like, I can feel the music when it's created, but I can't create out of the feeling. I haven't practiced the projecting the feeling onto the music. I'm not like a musician. It's a different muscle that I think is if you really want to create beautiful things, you have to... The creation happens here, not... I think it's more here. Whichever, it's some part of the body, but it's not with your fingers.

1:10:04Yeah, because I think the fingers is more this. Sure. And then... Yes, it is here. Yeah. Right. And it's just nice that you said that because it's probably really it's really good advice if you want to create. Yes, slowing down is really great too. What do you mean slowing down? Sowing everything down. It could be, you know, I can play something really fast, but I may want to practice it. Yeah.

1:10:47Like...

1:10:52Go slow as possible. Because there's all these micro movements that are happening that if you just go... Like, you can't pay as close attention to the exact tone that you're pulling from each note. And there's a lot to pay attention to to how my fingers are touching the string here. Like I can change my tone a million ways just by the direction of this finger. And same with how this lands and how hard I'm attacking the string. And with what intention am I hitting the string? emotionally, physically. And so even if you can go blah blah blah, play that so slow. See how locked into a pocket you can be.

1:11:43See how you like feel every aspect of that because then when it gets sped up, it's still there with you. Yeah. That's brilliant. It's kind of like the transcended and included thing that Ken Wilbert talks about. Like it's like. And I guess that's what meditation can do for you to like really listen to like observe every aspect of your body, the breath, and all this. Here you're observing every element, like every super detailed element of playing a single note. Yeah. That's cool that if you speed it up it's still there with you. It is. I've, I've, yeah, it is. Because I hear there are certain people it's like they play really fast but I don't hear the fullness of tone always.

1:12:26And it's like, well, it's probably because maybe they didn't, maybe it's because they didn't slow it down and really sit with each note and let it resonate through their whole being. It's spiritual, it's like a spiritual expression. It's not just like, you know, it's not a sport. A lot of people treat music like a sport. Yeah, since starting to learn more, like Steve A. Vaughan versus Jimmy Hendrix. I would spend quite a long time on single notes or just bending, just like just listening to what you can do with bends, spending. Just thinking like people like BB King and all these blues musicians like spend a career just making a single note cry.

1:13:10There's like an art form to that. Yeah. And I think you putting it like taking it really slow, which I never really thought of. It's really good idea, like really slow it down. That's the same with like sitting with your own emotions. It's like we, when emotions are overwhelming to us, we get real busy. We move real fast because it's like we don't want to feel our feelings. Those are the moments to slow yourself down. and observe it anger jealousy and just be with it just be with it be like be cool with it like love it love the anger it's all beautiful can you educate me on the difference between base base and bass okay well one is a fish at least that pronounced the correct that's good it's all about the Can you pronounce my name?

1:14:05Tall. Wow. Most people say tall. Tall. Or tall. You said tall. Who says tall? Like so many people. And the south maybe. I don't know, but the fact that you used to make my name like you get extra points. Tall. I didn't know this was a game. Am I winning? Yeah. I like winning. How do you play the bass? What's the difference in finger styles slap? slap. Slap is like this, fingers, dolls like this. Have you ever played bass with a pick? Yeah, sometimes. I'm not accusing you of anything. No accusation taken. I don't know if these are sensitive topics like if that's... That would be pretty hilarious about sensitive about bass techniques, but like not about love.

1:14:49It just looks so cool, like slap it, and I don't understand what that's about, like that thumb thing, then. Yeah. I slapped less, a lot less almost never actually. It has a very distinctive sound and does a very distinctive thing to a song that is not something I hear needed very often in music today. Yeah. But in certain styles, like funk, it sounds awesome and it makes sense. It was something that was a bit overused at one point. For instance, like my mentor, Anthony Jackson, he refused to slap. Like he actually said, if you want me to slap, I'll leave this gig. So I'm not like that. See, that's why I said, since I was like reading into it.

1:15:42Because he was, he's sensitive about it. I was feeling the spiritual energy of the sensitivity of the top thing. Anthony Jackson. And then I mean, I'm playing electric bass. So generally speaking, you don't particularly want to hear electric bass on straight ahead jazz anyway. You want to hear an upright bass. But if I was to play jazz on electric bass, I might even kind of sound like palm mute. you know, like instead of going like I might go to very low. Anything to kind of make the notes shorter and less resonant and like kind of fade away quick because of the upright does that naturally and I have like a different base like a hollow body harmony that sounds closer to an upright that I'll use in in some like on my song under the sun that I put out that was on a harmony base and it has like kind of an upright acoustic kind of tone to it, but with more sustain.

1:16:41And is jazz fusion the style where you have like an electric bass? Can you as you came you with that? Again, you can you can have both. You can have both on you can have either on anything. There's no like real rules now. I've heard you say something interesting, which is Well, a lot of things you say is interesting. Just one thing. Just one. That's... And it's what time you're leaving. But that was that again. Three minutes. That it's maybe easier sometimes to define a musical genre by the don'ts than the do's. The don'ts than the do's. What are the don'ts of jazz and rock? What are the dons of jazz fusion?

1:17:29What are the dons? Any domain of life? What are the dons? The dons is just to please leave your fear at the door. And you do is to be open to anything. And open your ears, like respond to what's happening now. I think that quote you're talking about might have been more about an individual musician's unique sound because everyone has their sound. If they've developed their voice and they've listened to their own aesthetic preferences of which everyone is slightly different, everyone has slightly different likes and dislikes, then you'll have a unique sound on your instrument and your unique sound is defined more by the choices you make rather than I mean it's equally as defined by the choices you make and the choices you don't like.

1:18:26I mean it's the flip side of the same coin really. Yeah there's certain musicians you can just tell it's them just you hear a few notes and you're like okay it's them. Sometimes it's tone sometimes it's the way they put they play rhythm. Yeah it might that quote you're talking about might have even had to do with someone's like real limitations on an instrument that then that would define their sound is the things that they can't, like actually can't do versus like what you're choosing to do versus not choosing to do, which is that like flip side at the same coin thing. How many fingers you play with?

1:19:00It seems like a lot of the greatest musicians aren't technically like perfect. The imperfections is the thing that makes them unique and where a lot of the creativity comes from. I mean Hendrix, Hendrix said a lot of those things, the way you put like a thumb over the top. Well, his hands were huge. There was no other place for the thumb to go. And it was great that he could reach, you know, the the e -string and that was an advantage. He was a lefty playing a right in a guitar. Yeah, flipped, I guess. Yeah. That's weird. That probably doesn't have much of an effect. Maybe a spiritual one. I don't know.

1:19:38Actually flipping a guitar is is different. It does, you know, bring out something different in you because I've done a like flipped and it's like, Oh wow, yeah, it's really, it's really different. I remember talking to my osteopath about like, you know, because there's so much weight on this shoulder while I'm playing all the time and they were saying like, well, just off the shows, just literally just turn it upside down and do the exact same thing in the opposite way. It'll like even out your body and it'll go, it's good advice. Maybe you actually tried it. Okay. All right. I'll write that down.

1:20:11Um, all right. Well, do you know a guy named Davy 504? I've heard of him. I recently learned of him. He's a YouTuber and a bass player. He's amazing. He combines memes and also just these brilliant bass compositions and says slap like a lot. He's big into slapping. That's how that's he's the one that kind of he realized this is a thing. Okay. And he also said that you're one of the best, not the best bassists in the world. There was a bunch of his fans that wrote in and he analyzed the Jeff Beck thing that we watched across roads. Is one of the greatest solos ever, bass solos ever. So shout out to him.

1:20:54What does that make you feel like? You're the greatest of all time. Chocolate cookies. Chocolate, is that your favorite? I like McAdamia not like if you really want to get into it with like white chocolate. Yeah, that's a rare one for people to say is the favorite chocolate chip is just say easy you can kind of get them anywhere Yeah, last thing you want to be easy World you want to be easy you said that I love rock and roll quote I love folk I love jazz I love Indian classical music I really love all kinds of music as long as it's authentic and from the heart So when you play rock versus jazz you played all kinds of music.

1:21:27What's the difference technically musically? Spiritually, spiritually for you. Well, there's no spiritual there, friends. Okay. I'm not sure. Cross that off the list.

1:21:39But, more musically, yeah, it's kind of like what was saying earlier. It's like each genre has its language of what makes it that genre. And that would be a good thing to say. defined by the, you know, the do's and don'ts. Because yeah, it's like, I'm trying to think, basically I put the song first and I think of the song as the melody, the lyrics, and then the harmony and obviously the groove. So the song goes before the genre in a sense, each song is like, it's all thing. They're both things that are held in my mind. It's like, okay, genre, and then song, which is comprised of those basic elements.

1:22:34And I tend to kind of prioritize lyric because somebody is trying to express something over music. And so that lyric is very, very important. And so then the choices come from there. It's like, okay, within the genre of X, this is the typical language. And then how do I best serve this lyric? And then where else can I pull from that might not be in these two bags that would put a little twist on it? So those are all the kinds of things I might be thinking about. But I don't like twists for the sake of twists either. I like twists because I want to hear something that might be fresh. But when someone does something just to be hip, it's annoying to me.

1:23:35I think you can hear the difference. It's like when people like they write in odd time signatures or like They write all these riffs just because they can just because they have the chops to do it or they know how to play and 1116 and whatever just like but if it's not Actually creating a piece of music that's going to move somebody then why are you doing it? And so I think a lot of the questions I'm asking myself when I'm approaching a song or mainly philosophical and aesthetic So you like to stand on the edge of the cliff not for the thrill of it, but because that's where you find something new.

1:24:15Yeah. Potentially. Yeah. And it's thrilling. But you're not doing it just for the thrill. I'm not doing it for the thrill. It just happens to be thrilling. All right. Because you can always reel it back in. Can you though? Yeah. You can. No. You can do it totally like disciplined. Like I can go into a session and okay. My favorite thing about going into a session with musicians that I adore is that we don't hear the demo Because if you hear a demo you're hearing what the producer or songwriter have already imagined that every instrument is playing and Then it's like well, I've already heard what you want now my mind is Part of my mind is focused on what I already know you want what the destination is gonna be Why did you bring me in here?

1:25:01I want to not hear it I just want you to set it up, you know, and sing the song with, I want to hear the chords and the lyric and then I'll sit in a acoustic to play it and then let's all go in the room and then take one. I would say 80 % of the time take one has the most gold. And there might be like a mistake or two or someone forgot to go to the B section and you might want to like punch that in so that you're hitting the right chord. But all the magic is in that take. And then sometimes it happens where it's like you go to say we're rehearsing and take one, two, three, four, five. And then you're like thinking about it too much and then you go and you have a dinner and you come back and the next take one after dinner is the one.

1:25:45Like it's usually after there's some sort of a break. But obviously there's exceptions to that rule. Sometimes it's take two, three. Yeah, you said, you said that this is something that surprised you about recording with prince, is that he would just so much of it would be take one. So it would just move so quickly. Yeah, well with that particular album that we made together, it's called Welcome to America. He called me up and asked me, he said, I wanna make a band with you. I'm like really inspired by what you're doing with Jeff Beck. I wanna make a trio. Do you like the drum rolls of Jack Dijonette with like his first question to me?

1:26:22I'm like, well yeah, who doesn't? Who doesn't like Jack Dijonette? Like one of the greatest of all time. And he's like, well, you know, sounds like, because we had a discussion about drama. Sounds like you're kind of particular about drama. So why don't you find us the drummer? And I'll trust you to find the drummer. You can audition some people, send me some recordings. And maybe you're two favorites and I'll pick out of the two or something. So I did that. Went out of journey, found a couple guys. He picked the one. We went in. And he basically just would be like, okay, so the A section is going to go like this.

1:27:00And then the B section, I think when it's going to go to G and the bridge, I might go to B flat, but maybe I'll hold off and do it. Okay, let's go. One, two, three, four. And then we recorded it to tape. There was no part, he did not want me to punch anything. Like it was like, and there was one song called, same page, different book. And he like talked through it just like he did. And then he had me soloing between each phrase, like little fills. It's like, I didn't know that that was going to come up. And he loved that. He loved that to have me on the edge of my seat, like falling off the cliff.

1:27:39That was my first like real like falling off a cliff moment from somebody else holding me at the edge. edge of the cliff, you know what I mean? Now I just do it on my own because it's so fun and it makes sense. It's the best thing for the music. We say punch the tape, is that one you actually recorded? Like if you record the tape and there's like say like you hit a bum note, like to punch in means to like fix that note, like re -record over that one little area and punch that note in. He didn't want that. He's like, all my favorite records just like whatever happened happened. That's that moment in time.

1:28:20Let's make a new moment in time. It's great. Nobody makes records like that anymore. Everyone wants to like, you know, edit and re -record this and that. And unfortunately, with a lot of music, and I'm not saying all music, because there's Plenty of great music coming out, but there's the danger of it being flat because every little imperfection is digitally removed. Well, that's one of the promising things about AI is because it can be so perfect that the thing will actually come back to and value about music as the imperfections that humans can create. Yeah. There'll be a greater valuation of imperfections.

1:29:03Yeah, I mean you can kind of program imperfections too. Yeah, sure. That's that's also very sad But then you get closer and closer what it means to be human. I mean, there'll be a eyes among us There'll be human flawed like the rest of us Mortal and silly at times

1:29:25Another big sigh Is it fair to say that you're very melodic on bass? Like you make the bass sing more than people normally do? Is that a compliment? Yes, I think so. Thank you. Moving on to the next question. I mean, by way of understanding, there's something about the way you play bass that just kind of pulls you in the way when you listen to somebody play a guitar, like a guitar solo. The thing I love about Jeff Beck is that he played the guitar like a singer. And I think that the way that Wayne Shorter played his saxophone, it's like a singer. And I think everyone, every musician aspires to just sound like a singer.

1:30:12See, make it sing. Let me ask you about, just come back to Hendrix. Because you said that you had three CDs, Jimmy Hendrix, Kirby Hancock, and Rage Against the Machine. First of all, a great combination. It's so funny because when I listen to some of the music that I create like my solo music, I'm like, I could see how this is a combination of hobby, hangcock, rage, gets to the machine and Jimmy and Drake. I hear the influences funny. Just from your musician perspective, what's interesting to you about what really stands out to you about Hendrix. I just would love to hear like a real professional musician's opinion of Hendrix.

1:30:56I love that he is two voices combined into one voice. So it's like there is his voice on the guitar and there is his singing voice and there is the combination of the two that make one voice. And of course, the third element is his songwriting. And all of this have this beautiful chemistry and all work geniusously perfectly together. And there's nothing like it. And you know, he always beat himself up about being a singer and like he didn't like his voice, but it's like my favorite singers, the singers that don't sound like singers. Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan. You like Bob Dylan. Love Bob Dylan. You love his voice too.

1:31:47I love his voice. Can you explain that you're love affair with Bob Dylan's voice? He's expressing his lyrics. It's just pure expression. Exactly what he means. I feel everything that he's saying with 100 % authenticity. That's what I want to hear from a singer. I don't care how many runs you can do and I want to believe what you're saying. Why the cone is that? Does countless like Neil Young, I mean, there's so many musicians I love Elliot Smith for that reason. Let me ask you about mentorship. You said teachers and mentors, you had mentors. What's a good mentor for you? Harsh or supportive? It's supportive.

1:32:39You see a web lash? A movie? So that guy, somebody screaming at you, like kicking you off the cliff? Not necessary. I feel like anybody that's truly passionate about something that they want to be great at or a master of, or this and that, they've already got that person inside their in head. You don't need somebody else to do that for you. I think you need love, acceptance, guidance, support, time, advice if you ask for it. Just a space, just a nice open space. All my mentors were just that for me. They didn't tell me to do anything. They didn't care. Like, because they're not But why do they need to be invested in where I'm going?

1:33:29Only I know where I'm going. So for some mentor to come and be like, this is what you need to be doing in practice. It's like, but why? What if that's not my path? That might be your path. So I'm not really, again, otherwise it feels like a sport, like who can run the fastest race. And it's like, well, okay, well, I get that for that for sport. Maybe it makes sense to have someone a bit more hardcore, but still like, I would say athletes have the same mentality, they've got that in them already too. So I think more like a strategic approach to mentorship works really well and mainly just having an open space and just being available to someone.

1:34:11And kind of show that they see the special in you. Yeah. And they give you the room to develop that special. Whatever. Exactly. Because if you do have that harsh critic inside you, it's like it is nice to have somebody that isn't like your family or someone that's not Obligated in any way that just sees your talent and they're like, yeah, I did what you're doing keep doing it Yeah, it's funny that that's not always easy to come by Do you have any mentors? Yeah, I've had a few recently, but for most of my life people didn't really

1:34:48You know, I am very much like that too, like somebody to pet me on the back and say like, like see something in you, of value. Yeah, I didn't really have that. So... Do you wish you did? Yeah, yeah. But maybe the wishing that I did is the thing that made me who I am, not having it, the longing for that. Maybe that's the thing that helped me develop a constant sense of longing, which I think. It's a way of, because I have that engine in me, it really allows me to deeply appreciate every single moment, every single, everything that's given to me. So like, just the eternal gratitude. So you never know which are the the bad parts and the good parts.

1:35:36So if you remove one thing, it might be it the whole thing might collapse. I suppose I'm grateful for the whole thing. That one note you screwed up so many years ago. That might have been essential. What about you? Because you do jujitsu. Yes. So do you? Are you? My dad does. My dad super into it. I love my dad. He's the ghost. But no, I don't do it. He's a he's a blue belt right now. Nice. Nice. You've ever been on the mat with him? Like not yet. But I plan on it. Should do it. What belt are you? Black belt. Sick. Do you want to go on? Yeah, right. You got the shit talking part of just a dumb.

1:36:24You have to do the technique. But like for that, like for instance, like do you, Do you need a Hosh mentor or a teacher? Yeah, but you said it really beautiful. To me, I agree. There's a difference between sport and art. They overlap, there's, for sure, but there's something about sport where perfection is actually perfection, perfection is really the thing you really want to get to. The technical perfection. with art, it feels like technical perfection is almost a way to get lost on the path to wherever, something unique. But yeah, with sport, I definitely, I want one of the kind of athletes that allows to have like a dictatorial coach.

1:37:15Somebody that like helps me really push myself to the limit. But you're the one that's kind of dictating how hard you're getting pushed in a way. like you're choosing your mentor. Like that whiplash video is like, he didn't ask for that. You know? Well, maybe subconsciously. I mean, there's a movie.

1:37:39Next you're going to tell me they're just actors. I mean, but, you know, how do we choose things? You know, you don't always choose, but you're kind of maybe subconsciously choose. and some of it, like some of the great Olympic athletes I've interacted with, their parents from any years were forced them to go to practice until they discovered the beauty of the thing that they were doing and then they loved it. So like at which point does something that looks like abuse become like a gift, you know? It's weird. It's all very weird. But for you, support and space, to discover the thing, the voice, the music within you.

1:38:23Yeah, that's my personal choice, because I'm very familiar with the inner critic and I can bring her out at any point. I don't need help with that, you know? Oh, so you do have a key key she can call. She was on overdrive, that's why now I had to work on that so much. Yeah, you have a really happy way about you right now. They're very son. Can I ask you about Bruce Springsteen? Yes, sure. A lot of songs that Fizz I listen to make me feel this melancholy feeling. It's not just Bruce Springsteen, but Bruce does a lot. What is that about songs that arouse a kind of sad feeling or a longing feeling or feeling?

1:39:08What is that? What is that about us humans on the receiving end of the music? Like, frequencies, each frequency does elicit a different kind of emotional response. That is real. You mean like on the physics aspect? Yeah, yeah, physical level. So there is that combined with the right kind of lyric and the right kind of melody of the right kind of chord, we'll elicit a very particular kind of emotion. And it is scientific. It can be analyzed. I don't particularly want to analyze it because I don't want to approach things with that. In advance, I don't want it to inform where I'm going. I like the feeling to lead me naturally to where I'm writing.

1:39:57But yeah, there's a real chemical element to that. And then also, like I was saying, like the lyric, what it means to you, which poetry is supposed to mean something to everybody, like different. It's not supposed to mean one thing. Like, you can't analyze and be like, this is what this poet meant. Yeah. And, and like we were talking about with Leonard earlier, it's like the broader you can leave, Aliric, the better. You can appeal to people in so many different ways. And even to the songwriter, like I'll sing some of my songs from five years ago, and I'll be like, oh, I didn't even think that it could have meant that.

1:40:38But I guess it does that's funny. I like just giggle on stage suddenly Illure it will hit me differently from from a different new experience or something Have you ever cried listening to a song? Of course We'd like a baby in a bathtub which Who's a regular go to them? Leonard Leonard yeah How do you as a song that makes consistently makes me feel something? It's holy. His work is holy. And if you were in his presence, I guess there was a lot to that, to that being.

1:41:24What advice would you get the young folks on how to have a life that can be part of? Hmm. Just tackle the demons as early as possible, whether it's through your eye or through meditation or through whatever it means, diaries, whatever it is, just walk towards the things that are scary. Because if you don't, they'll just expand. They become bigger. If you avoid the demons, they become bigger. What does that mean for you today? Are you still missing Jeff? I'll always miss Jeff, but I don't feel like a piece of me is missing.

1:42:11And same with Leonard, it's that I did give them a piece of myself and maybe they gave me a piece of them that I hold with me and I cherish, but it doesn't feel like I'm less than, or they're less than, or anything's less than, just you learn to appreciate the impermanence of everything in life. Impermanence of everything except for consciousness, I guess you could say is the only thing that it is permanent. So everything else, you learn to appreciate that impermanence because the limit amount of time at like in this particular body is it's enticing kind of gives you like a time limit, which is cool.

1:43:06I like that. You've come to accept your own. Yeah, like it's cool that I'm like, okay, I got this amount, maybe this amount of time, who knows? But like, but if I was yeah, if I if I died today, I'd be really happy with my life. Okay. It's not like I'm like, oh, I missed out on this and that. So you really want to make sure that every day could be your last day and you're happy with that? I've always lived that way. Yeah, I felt this way since I was in my early 20s. I'd be like, yeah, I could die today. Sure. I don't want to die. I have no reason to die. But if I did, I know that I put my everything, all my effort and all my passion and all my love into whatever I've already done.

1:43:50So if my time's up, then my time's up. What role does love play in this whole thing in the human condition? Well, love is everything. I mean, if you define love, if you're talking about love as in romantic love or paternal or maternal love, or if you're talking about love as in, you know, in an Eastern tradition like Vedanta for instance, love is consciousness, love is everything. That's the only permanent thing. Yeah. Or if you were to come from a Zen or like a Buddhist perspective, they would say, nothingness, like emptiness is, versus fullness. Well those guys are really obsessed with the whole suffering thing.

1:44:36And letting go of it. Yeah.

1:44:43Well, I was wondering if you would do me the honor of playing a song. During a suffering song or a suffering song? I think I would love a suffering song. Cool.

1:45:01Do you want to sound check and make sure I'm not here?

1:45:06Sound check. One, two. Yeah, sounds really good. This one too. All right, count me off. Yeah. I don't know how to count somebody off. Where do I start at nine or three? Two, one. There you got it. One, two. One, two.

1:45:35I call out to the ocean my tears fall into the sea for the vows That I've been broken across the dunes of time repeatedly. Like a night in battered armor I lay my sword upon the ground Cause I can't keep fighting these same battles More has been lost than has been found It's hard to feel things changing After all's been sad and done We spend our lives rearranging

1:47:12Everything under the sun I walk the same road to work each Monday Every step tears at my heel. I sleep not to dream, but to forget on Sunday. A spoke just turning with the wheel. It's hard to feel things changing after all's been said and done. We spend our lives rearranging Everything under the sun Reaching for the sky, feet buried in the ground. Looking for some way out of the circle spinning round. My eyes on the horizon, seeking out the light. But don't let me be lost forever in the night

1:49:06Because it's hard to feel things changing After all's been said and done, we spend our lives rearranging.

1:49:51You're amazing. That was amazing. Tall, thank you so much.

1:50:03Try turning it to 11. It's quite loud. Can you see it from the headphones? It's like a story. Can you play something? I'm...

1:50:23Is that your professional?

1:50:29I'll I should produce your next record. Please.

1:50:45Love, don't rescue me I've got nowhere better I wanna be I wanna be held, but not be holding, stand in my ground with one eye open. This fight doesn't quite add up.

1:51:27I thought you were free, but now I'm on the hook for all you've given me. Doesn't matter what I say or think or do, you see what you see with the lens you're looking through. This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me. And it's killing me, killing me

1:52:32I'm losing my voice, you let me to believe I had a choice, but let's pause, retract Knock down course, you could take my side Well I take yours This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me And it's killing me

1:53:17Kill on me

1:53:47Love, come rescue me I've got nowhere better I want to be This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me And it's killin' me

1:54:24Killin' me

1:54:30Kill on me.

1:54:40Kill on me.

1:54:55Well, there's nowhere else I'd rather be right now. So I'll thank you for this. Thank you for the private concert. You're amazing. You really are amazing. And it was a pleasure to meet you and really a pleasure to talk to you today. Do I get a private concert now if you've playing chess with yourself? Yeah, we were out of time so we got to go. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tal Wilkinfeld. To support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Maya and Jaloo. Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the spaces between the notes and curl my back to loneliness.

1:55:38Yes. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.