#417 – Kimbal Musk: The Art of Cooking, Tesla, SpaceX, Zip2, and Family

28:56And I got into this conversation. Communists that like drugs. That's a good question, Adam. I think I know some of those. Anyway, there were beautiful people. I think they're local from Austin. I don't, you know, I don't know the depths of their personal experience of the different kinds of communists, like systems. But it was fascinating to listen to and then get to know them and the humanity, the weirdness, like the characters. It's just, I mean, I love it. One of the reasons I really love Austin. I decided to be here is just the cliche thing of keep Austin weird. I mean, there's a lot of weird characters.

29:34I love it. I think that I've focused a lot of Austin, I've been here forever and I'm like, man, you got to hold us accountable. We got to keep this place weird. 100 percent, which makes the restaurants seem great because you have all these characters come in. It's great. So I look forward to that. But you were saying like you get to see humans in real life interact. That's one of the beautiful things over food. In the book you write, Picasso once said, the meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away. Then you wrote that you believe food is a gift. We give ourselves three times a day.

30:10Can you explain that? The gift nature. Yeah, I think it's one of my most powerful life lessons is we have to eat. So it's not like you have a choice. You have to eat. And so what I choose to do is I'm choose to make it a gift to myself for each meal. And most of the time the best gift is with friends with family. So without to cook some scrambled eggs in the morning with my daughter or we'll have dinner with our family. For me, it's a gift we give ourselves three times a day, at least for the most part three times a day. Let's make it a good one. What makes it a good one to you? Like what? What aspect makes it a good one?

30:52Well, first definitely eating with people. So that makes it a good one. So eating eating is an in a restaurant or it doesn't have to be my restaurant. We have the energy of people around you. Energy of the town. People you don't know creates a little bit of a vibe that you mentioned the the watering hole analogy that animals like to ping at the water. But there's an energy to that because they're also like looking around going, is am I just about to be eaten? So there's they're all in it together. But we need to have water with also a little bit of tension as well in the background. And I think that's what restaurants do.

31:32It's a very, very subtle version of that. You're in a room with strangers. And you're a little cluster. Okay fine. You guys are connected in it. But you're in a room of strangers and it's just something that adds that energy to the meal. Yeah, you're a little bit wondering like what does everyone else think about our little cluster? Right. Like oh, we too loud or just you also just people are random. So something random could happen. And also depending on your personality if you're an extrovert, maybe you want to show off to the other clusters. You're right. Yeah, absolutely. Totally right. I mean, you know, look at the cowboy head.

32:05I mean, actually, I'll take my hat off when I want to have a quiet meal and I believe my hat on when I'm so you're aware of the lot. I'm aware of the fact that it has. Yeah, absolutely. Everyone turns. And then it's back to the watering hole because when you wear a cowboy hat, you just might actually I'm like, they're going to get me first. Noon. I love it. I got to tell the story. So this is a talk to the craziness of being of being in the restaurant world where you know, you're sitting at a table and anything can happen in the restaurant. So there's one time I was like 15 years ago, the sky comes up to us and says we'd like to propose to his wife, his girlfriend.

32:46And and and so we said, okay, cool. We've done this before. We'll we'll make sure it's all set up 6 p .m. kind of reservation. So she shows up and we we give her a glass of champagne. It's just we didn't obviously didn't want to spoil the surprise. So we just doing it. We can't but then he doesn't shouldn't he doesn't arrive. And they were like, oh man, now we're like, don't don't leave. Can we ever get you another glass of champagne? We're doing everything we can because I was obviously earnest earlier. We're just as stuck in traffic or whatever. And out coming through the back door of the restaurant, which is you're not allowed to come through the back door of the restaurant, a marching band from the school of the university like comes through the restaurant, you know, full on brass band and the whole thing.

33:31And and you know he gets down and he proposes that it's it's it's it's it's it's beautiful. Sure, but it's also like, man, this is chaos. This is insane. And we would never have said yes to this if he'd actually told us what he was going to do. Well, sometimes in life, you have to do it and apologize. You do it and apologize. But that toast to that kind of what the crazy thing that could happen in a it's subtle, but it's but it's still there. So in 2004, you opened the kitchen. It's an American bistro restaurant. What was it like? What's it like running a restaurant? The good to bad and ugly. What's the what's the easy?

34:06What's the fun and what's the hard? I think the thing that I absolutely love about running the restaurant, I'm eating a bit of running the restaurant is the tangible reaction from from people and you know, you also kind of know when you street it up. And you also know when you got to write. So even it's kind of a weird way to say this, but even if the customer's unhappy, you know, whether you got to write it wrong. It's not just about the food you're making, but it's about the person's psychological state. Yeah. And you'll even you'll do something that you're like, you know, that that was not well.

34:47And their psychological state is in it's just a very happy place and they love it. And you're like, huh, interesting. You know, like that's not how I would have reacted to that dish. And in the other way around, you'd like to know I got that right. And that that person's just like really unhappy today. Yeah. And it's so hard to read humans because you have to if you got to write that can look a million different ways, depending on the emotional role of course that human is living through. Like I've been some very low points and I've gone to like a restaurant alone and just sitting there and be truly happy with just the zen aspect of it.

35:27And it was just a great like a great state because something like this. And maybe to other people around me would look like I'm very unhappy just because I'm within myself. Yeah, within myself, but I'm truly happy within that struggle. So yeah, it's interesting, but you can kind of tell. Yeah, you could tell. And what you mentioned being at the bar, one of the most gifts, the most gifts that bartenders really understand that. You know, it's it goes beyond, but what's also great about a restaurant goes beyond the one time experience that you walk in and you have that experience is the good bartenders say they remember you.

36:08Oh, you were in a few months ago. And this is kind of your thing. You might need a little time. And other people will come and they want a conversation. Yeah. Or other people come in and they're going through a divorce and they just want to be sad for a moment as clutch. Yeah. And it's like it's amazing what you learn in the in the restaurant world to just be connected to humanity. Yeah. What is that about bars? That's a different experience. She said the the table, the communal. The table is when you connect with people learn about each other. Bars, you can sometimes do that. You can talk left and right, but you but you have the freedom to always break of break free.

36:46Like you can say, Oh, okay, great. I'm going to go back to my meal. So it's kind of like that. It's like a friend you can turn on and off at any time. Because at the bartender knows that they're trained. Like if you want attention, I'm going to give it to you. If you don't, I'm going to I'm going to say away. If you want to be chatty, I'm going to be chatty. If you want to be completely in your head, I'll leave you in your head. But there's also strangers kind of next to you that you kind of there's a feeling with a bar that you kind of alone together. Yeah. And you can reach out. Yeah. You can add some conversation or you can choose not to.

37:19And you can exit quickly. You can exit. You get exactly. It's a really good exit. So bars are wonderful. And I love going to a bar by myself after work. I might have a scratch, might even not even have alcohol. I just have something. And I just and maybe have a snack or something before dinner. Because I'm going to go home and have dinner with the family. And that's that 20 minutes. It's just a amazing state change from daytime to nighttime. Where's my went straight home? I'm like still in my head. And I'm just trying to try to get grounded. And I'm just I'm not as pleasant as a person. So there's another powerful use of a bar is just like a transition time.

38:01What I mean, it would be remiss not to mention the other use of the bar, which is like when you go on with there's some shit in life. And you just go. I mean, that sort of it's the cliche thing. I've been someone. But like the bar makes the melancholy somehow like rich and beautiful. And like it's you feel heard in the silence. Yes, you feel heard. And like I said earlier, like the people going through a divorce, they don't know where else to go. This is these are mostly men. Sometimes we're going to do it, but mostly men will do this. And I'm women out of other ways of processing it. But they just they want a place to be sad.

38:46I'm going to place where they could feel comfortable talking about it. If they weren't there, there's certainly not going to go into too much detail. But they just want to say something. And the bartender is there for that. Yeah, you don't know where to go. You don't know where to go. Exactly. The bar. The bar. Yeah, you're right. Like for men, especially as a place to just go. Yeah. And just I don't know what is that. I mean, I still do it myself where if I'm at home, and I'm sitting, you know, don't have a work thing that I got to deal with. And I don't have kids and I don't have my wife or a family around.

39:24I don't often cook for myself. I actually love going to a bar by myself. I have a glass of red wine. And I have, you know, you don't have starter appetizer. I just made like a main meal. And I just take in the energy of the space. It was my restaurant, someone else's restaurant. I just take in the energy. And it's so much much better than being home and turning the TV on. No, no, no, no, I want to be out in the restaurant. I want to feel the energy of the town. The other thing that restaurants teach me is the there are the front lines of of the economy or what's a bit of word for it. Just like the front front lines of the energy of of of of how things are going.

40:11Oh, you like of a people's in general. Like it doesn't necessarily mean this part of town, but it could be the entire society. Yeah, exactly. So you can you can go into a restaurant and I'll use a simple example. And there why is the restaurant empty? Ah, there's a football game going on. And that they people, there's such a large number of people who want to watch that game that the restaurant is quiet or it might be like another like World Series or something. And you're like, wow, that's so interesting. You can actually watch in America, of course, American humanity watched them move in their patterns just by being in the restaurant.

40:48Yeah. Yeah. And then another time you might be in a restaurant and he's just jamming. And it's a Monday night. And you're like, what what what is the energy that created this on a Monday night and maybe even on a cold February Monday night? What is it? And sometimes you can't find out, but you can feel it. And it's it's my it's my front lines of humanity that I that I also just really love about the restaurants. Yeah, it could be empty. It could be full. Empty bars is a magic to those two. Yeah. You could still feel that energy. I don't know. I actually prefer empty bars than than four ones. It's just you and the bartender.

41:24I mean, some of my greatest experiences, just the quiet bar. It was just me and the bartender and they're doing their thing. And they've seen so many. I've almost like, threw us most of somehow feel the stories that that bartender has seen, has felt, has heard. Yeah. No, that kind of stuff. I mean, that it's it's not to be sort of like spiritual, but it seems like it's in the walls or something. Like there's the histories felt. And some of these bars are actually very old and it's wonderful. Like you know, the main in Europe like this, but there's a couple in New York City, a few hundred years old, and you and they're still operating nonstop for that long.

42:00And man, you feel it. Yeah. Let me ask you some questions about ingredients. What's your favorite ingredient to cook with? For me cooking is an art, right? So be like asking me what's my favorite favorite paint color to use. It doesn't, it's not that it isn't like there isn't one. It's more like when there is one, it really is one. You know, like there's peaches on the cover of this cookbook. Those peaches that those were in August, Colorado peaches, it just doesn't get any better than that. On that day at that moment, that was the best. That was the best. But that only lasts for a week. And then they don't taste so great.

42:40But damn, was I so good in that moment? And you just can't stop wanting to use that ingredient. That look really good. They're so good. What's your favorite fruit? I love veggies and fruit. What's your favorite fruit? I love a smoothie bowl. So I do sort of berries, raspberries. I use fruit more in the form of a smoothie bowl than I eat fruit in that often. I like an apple or a banana, but for most part, I prefer like the blended. Not me. I love the way you casually said it like an apple. A good apple is pretty great. For me, it's a problem, I think. Probably cherries number one. Probably what do they call grains with apples and them.

43:25Oh, yeah, that's a great. But try it when sometime come to Colorado in August. When you try those peaches, it is like heaven has arrived in your mouth. It is so ridiculously good. But just for a week and all this week, you can't have it all your long. What about veggies? You wrote that chef Hugo that you worked with the co -founder of the kitchen with taught you the power of a good vegetable. What's the power of a good vegetable? So I've trained in New York as a French chef, but it wasn't very much a green ingredients focus. It wasn't very much sourcing focused. He came from the river cafe in London, which was one of the nine the OGs of the forms of table and still going strong today.

44:11He taught me the value of getting to know farmers and getting to know vegetables from that farm versus vegetables from that farm. They're actually different soils a little different way they grow it a little different. It's the opposite of the industrial machine where everything needs to look exactly the same. Sometimes you'll get carrots that are ugly and deformed, but there's much sweeter than the carrots you get for other purposes. You make a carrot puree out of that and then you take carrots more typical in shape and size. You might roast them for the carrot. It's the appreciation for vegetables in general.

44:52I probably would say carrots is my favorite because that was an example of one where I really had to learn how to use the different types of carrots that come from around from all of our farms. It's fun. It's a fun ingredient. If you just went to the whole foods or just went to a grocery store and you just got exactly the same carrot every time, less fun. But go to a farmer's market and see what you get. You'll see they're quite different. Yeah, carrot for me is probably number one. I have rigorous detailed rankings for fruit and veggies. That's amazing. We'll get into the dogs. Why am the kind of person that would have a spreadsheet for that?

45:28That's true. But I'm mostly just making fun of myself. I do love carrots. I wish they weren't so full of carbs. I'm just not anti -carbs. I think they play a role. I am a great friend who's an amazing doctor. He did some tests from me and everything. It turns out I have a gluten allergy. That's like, okay. What that means is I shouldn't eat gluten. It's like, yeah, it's like, okay. But I also have hay fever. That means I should not go out into nature. So it's like, yeah, I think I'm going to go out into nature. Maybe what I'll do on bread and pasta is like the true carbs. I'll just have it when it's really good.

46:22Because when it's really good, it's really good. You don't want to miss that. Most of the time, okay, find some crummy bread, whatever. I can skip that part. But I find all of these diets are like, no, none of this or super this, super that. I wonder if they're just like a, people are just looking for something you can hang on to. But these diets have been around forever. And if they work, then we would know that. I think one of the biggest problems with diets is it adds stress when you do have that perfect little pasta. If you're, if you have categorized yourself as a low carb eating person, you might be very stressed about enjoying this thing when you should just let go.

47:05Let go. That's just your cheat day or whatever. Yeah. And I've heard that. And actually, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, friends who do that, their cheat day. And I say to them, I'm only going to hang out with you on your cheat day because that's when you're actually fun. Yeah. I mean, I, I would say like for me, there's things that make me feel really good. But they're not rules. They're not, they're like go to favorites. Now, speaking, like in terms of diet and so on, for example, I've mostly been eating once a day. Oh, wow. For, for the longest time. But that's not a rule. Like it's, it's completely flexible.

47:39And I'm mostly been eating very low carb. You must be eating a lot of food in that one meal. Yeah. It's not, you know, because it's usually a very sort of meat -heavy. It's not like portions throughout that big. Your body needs food. Yeah. Body needs food. So you drop while like 2000 calories. What you find out is like that dinner is like the most social time of the day. Yeah. I mean, I have kids in the morning. So if you have kids, it's for sure a morning experience, but if you don't, then you're right. Yeah. But like you said, I, I DV8, you know, I'm more afraid of missing the perfect, the perfect dessert, the perfect breakfast, the perfect, uh, well, pasta, pizza, all that kind of stuff.

48:21Yeah. And then I don't think of it as a cheat day. I think it's, um, well, if you're needing one meal a day, you can, you know, whatever you like. Well, like I, I want to make clear that it's not one meal a day. Always. And I'm like this very strict thing. Right. Uh, it's, you always have to be open to the experience to the new experience. Uh, otherwise you do miss out. It's just like you said, Hey, if you're like, I think if you want to be really safe, you should never leave your home. Yes. Just wrap, wrap, we learned during COVID, if you wrap yourself in cotton wool in your basement, yes, you're, you're not going to die from COVID.

48:55You might die from a lot of other things, you're a misery. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you might live forever. I hate, we don't know. But it certainly doesn't maximize the joy of whatever, whatever makes life worth living, it doesn't maximize that. Yeah. Exactly. You wrote in a book that Anthony Bourdain was one of your heroes. Uh, can you speak to what inspired you, uh, about him? Yeah. He wrote a book called Kitchen Confidential in the 90s. I was in cooking school at the time. It was so, he romanticized the kitchen, the cooking in the restaurant so well. His writing is great. He kind of got me into, like, Oh, that's cool.

49:39I want to do that. That was, it was, it was cool. Uh, so, you know, got into cooking school, got more engaged in it. And I, and I was like this headless phomo feeling of I wanted to experience what it's like to be in, in the back of my, when you're just cooking school, you are, you're in the back of the head of restaurant. We would serve people, but it's not the same thing as actually being in a, like a real restaurant. It's like you're in a submarine with, with, you know, your, your teammates and you got a win tonight. Like it's a real, it's a real energy. And so that, that was a big inspiration.

50:11I folded him over to so sad that he, he, he, he chose to end his life. But I also had met with him a few times, not, not like one -on -one dinner or anything, but just like met with him and, um, I just felt his love for, for food and truly, it's just love for food. He gave the advice of don't be afraid, get excited and cook with love. Yeah. I've used that phrase, especially the cook with love one. I mean, when, you know, one of the things about which we talked about earlier, where you get quick, tangible feedback from a customer when you're in the restaurant. Um, I know when I didn't put love into that dish.

50:52I know when one of my line cooks did not put love into that part of the dish. I know when that expert person did not put love into looking double checking the dish before putting it on the table. I, you just know and, and cook with love is, uh, when you do it for your family, oh, actually, especially when you do it for your family, the food isn't, doesn't that be perfect, but you're cooking with love. That's why you lost scrambled eggs. I do that. It's, that's in the book. Campbell scrambled eggs. Yes. You promised to make me scrambled eggs and I'm going to hold you to it. That's great. A cooking school you mentioned, the French culinary institute.

51:30I heard it was a, a bit of a rough experience in parts. I would call it, it's, it's not a rough experience in that in a beautiful way. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly. It's not like I'm a victim of it. It's, uh, it's rough in that they intentionally make it rough. So the, the school costs the same price as Harvard to go to. You show up, you have to, it's an 18 month program. You are a lot of drop out at any time. You don't get your money back. 25 people started. Six people graduated. And the people graduated. I graduated with man, there were times when I'm like, I can't handle this. I mean, I would literally say to my friends, oh, I gotta go to Cookies Call.

52:15I'm gonna go get screened at for the next six or seven hours. Yeah. And I had this little French chef who was my nemesis of this. He's still living your head somewhere. He's only got five foot two with something. And, uh, and I remember him screaming so much at me that this, he's like the short guy. I'm six five. The spittle would land on my face. Nice. And I would just have to sit there, I'll stand there and take it. It was a very humbling experience. I did learn though that it's, it's intentionally not rough. So I took a little bit of the, um, edge over one day when that same chef had come over to me and said, move over a little bit.

53:03And I moved over and he took my carousel, whatever and started just chopping everything. And it's like perfectly. And then he said, again, he's gonna come back and then he went over to someone else and started screaming at them saying that look, even Kimball can do this. And you can't do this. And I was like, this whole thing's like a psych, psychogame. So it did take the edge off when I realized there was, like, the guy was intentionally trying to break you down. And they do this apparently in the army. I'm not a bit of the army, but they need you to, they need to break you down. Everything you know is worthless so that then we can teach you and you can come out of it with what, what actually we want you to know.

53:46Are there specific technical lessons you remember you learned from that? Sort of how to cut carrots or how to approach food, how to prepare food, how to think about food, how to carry yourself in the kitchen. All of those things. I think that the one of the most beautiful lessons were is actually scrambled eggs. So there's different layers of chefs. So they're all master chefs. They're all very well known people and everything. But but Alan Sultano was one of the chief like main, main guys. And he just passed away from master chef and everything kind of stopped when he would show up in the kitchen.

54:28And he would teach very few things. And all of the other chefs who were, you know, the same ones that were screaming at us, just like, it was like the Red Sea partying. Like they have total respect for this human and he can do it every once. And the one of the things he wanted to teach was how do you make an omelet, a french omelet? And it's really fundamentally the same thing. It's the soft scrambled eggs that you fold. And the love that he put into the time with us, and of course he's a legend. There were moments like that where I'm like, wow, okay. He also, he also just like the other chefs didn't have any concern berating anyone.

55:06So he berated our master chefs, saying, I don't trust these people to teach you how to make scrambled eggs. So I'm going to do it instead. What, I mean, can you speak to that? Because, you know, a lot of people here in this would be like scrambled eggs. Like, why do you need to be a master chef to really make scrambled eggs? Yeah, it's a, it's a, well, first of all, for me, and it's a learning journey forever. So, so I make, I make scrambled eggs, I mean, I'm just made 10 ,000 times or more, whatever. That's like Jerojune's a sushi, Kimbo dreams of scrambled eggs. Pretty much. So I will, I will wake up and be held accountable by my kids to make scrambled eggs.

55:52So it happens every morning. And it's, I know all the steps, muscle memory level kind of steps, I don't know how much while I know it. And then I'll cook it. And it's very meditated for me because you have to focus. So most scrambled eggs, soft scrambled eggs, recipes are 10, 15 minutes to get them to that, that perfect softness. And the, the recipe that I got from chef, chef Alan was, was something that you do in 90 seconds. But it requires total focus. Like if you, like, look up for a second, you're going to miss, you're going to miss the, the, the perfect moment we have to stop and get those eggs out of the pan because once the, because the the eggs will keep cooking.

56:41And so it's this meditation. And it's sometimes you hit it, like, perfectly. But most times, this could have been a little softer, could have been a little firmer, could have been a little bit more salt, could have been a little bit pepper. And so, so, what's really fun about the morning is my kids are kind of into it. So they're, so they're like, we, we critique the eggs. Yeah. Every morning. Do they have a rating system? We're back to the spreadsheet. It's more like, and again, it's also going back to how people feel, right? So my kids can be in a bad mood and they can be grumpy. Or just like a Michelin star system.

57:16Like, what? No, no, it's no, it's more like, oh, yeah, I am, I like my little more gooier or yesterday with this way, a little bit more salt, a little less, a little less salt. Salt is usually the one that is because not all salt are equal. So if you are used to working with a certain kind of salt, and then you're just forced for somebody to ran out of salt to use some, use some other salt, you actually don't know how to use it. You really, you really want to have the same salt all the time. They have a page on salt in the book, which is fascinating. Salt is, you got to get to know your salt. You got to, you got to love your salt and you got to use it over and over and over again.

57:56And it will teach you how to use that salt. You know, your own palate will tell you how salty you like things. But if you change it up and you mix up a whole bunch of salt, you've now multiplied your learning path. So for me, my favorite salt is kosher salt. And I like to use that all the time. And if I ever change it, I might sprinkle a little bit of molten salt, just a crunchy sort of a flaky salt. But it's more for that when you're actually eating it. To give you texture as well as salt, exactly. You wouldn't use it on scrambled eggs, but the, but if you switch out your salt, it's a different weapon.

58:34Yeah, yeah. I like how, you know, usually there's wine connoisseurs. You're saying you're going back to sort of farm to table when you're talking about carrots. In that same rigor and nuance, you have to consider the different farms involved for the carrots. In that same way, you have to consider the different salts. Yeah. With like, and also not even, or kosher salt is the same. It's the particular salt that you like. Get to know it. Get in a relationship with it. It's like great. You will learn so much. How like, in terms of the, the measurement, the proportion, the amount you put of salt you put in, are you doing that like exactly?

59:21Or are you doing it by feel? So it's by feel. And that's where you get the relationship. So in fact, I have a, in the book, in the cookbook, I have QR codes that people can scan because when I struggle with recipes, is they don't, they don't teach technique, right? They can describe the technique, but they don't teach the technique because it's a technique. It's not a recipe. And so one of the, one of the lessons is how do you salt a steak? And the answer is not, here's a teaspoon and you do it this way. The answer is use kosher salt so you can see with your eyes, because their little flakes, how much salt is on your steak, and then taste it, we cook it, and then taste it.

1:00:01And now, do you think it any more, or you need it less? Okay, now next time, put a little more on it because you can see it. And it's about learning the, the fact that you, you want to be able to see how much salt is on the steak so that you can then train yourself with the future of how much salt you want to your steak. Yeah, but then the steak and the salt kind of dance together, it depends on where the steak came from. That's true. That's true. All the thickness of the steak, that'll make a difference. But for the most part, if you learn, if you're able to see it, where's this table salt, for example, this just just disappears, you just can't see what you're putting on your steak, you can't really learn as a result.

1:00:36I think you talk about roast chickens where your love of food began, what about steak? What's it? I love a good steak, so great. So in the, in the, in the, in the French school, you add sauces and all this kind of stuff. And in boulders, when you realize like there's a beauty to the, to the basic, yeah, like a good, uh, New York strip from a good rancher, that, that, uh, you know, the, the, there's a lot of, uh, discussion controversy on how, how cattle should be raised. And we have a, we have a very, uh, different approach, which is, we know how our cattle are raised. We go to the farm. We get to know the rancher, we, and, um, sometimes you do want to have them be finished on, like they'll be grass fed for the most part, but then there's some sort of cool recipe of food you're giving them that will then make them taste better.

1:01:33Um, and sometimes it, it is actually pretty good to have 100 % grass fed. I've had some amazing, uh, ranchers that, that, that show me that the flavors all there. For the average person that, you know, might go to a whole future grocery store, I think that simplicity of a, of a good steak, it's, it, it, it is important to get good sourcing, but also it's just, it's just, it's just good. What's your favorite kind of meat? There's New York strip, probably New York strip for me. Yeah, New York strip. Yeah. I like the fact that it's lean, but if you want the fat, you can dive into that little strip of fat, or you can leave it alone, because you don't want it that night.

1:02:09Um, and it's, uh, uh, it's also a great steak for, uh, adding something like if you want to, you could either do a, a pepper sauce or you could do a lot of ground pepper, which gives it a peppery, um, kind of, it's not, not sour, but it's a peppery steak. It's a really good steak for a, okay, a canvas for, for other things, but the basic ingredients you're playing with a salt and pepper. Yeah, I'm just pretty magic. Actually, I will say there's another one, uh, garlic. When you, when you can, well, no, this is my favorite recipe for, for a steak is you, you season it both sides, salt and pepper, you saute it in, in the olive oil, barely, barely anything.

1:02:53And, um, you're getting a nice crisp, like a golden dark golden brown on both sides. The other, the other trick with cooking is take is don't touch it, you know, just put one side. When you're ready to turn it, turn it around, don't touch any other, any other time. But at the end, you take a dab of butter and you crush a, a clove of garlic. You don't even chop it, you just crush the clove and you, you put the two of them in the, in the pan and you just roll the steak around in the garlic butter. I think that's the one. Bold move. Bold move. What do you, uh, since you're in Austin, quite a bit opening a restaurant here.

1:03:33What do you think about barbecue? It's kind of the, uh, the Texas way. Well, I would say there's an Austin way, which is an awesome, which is an actually even Austin would say there's a suburb of Austin way. I think that, actually the, the adventure of food is wonderful. Um, I would absolutely say that, that Austin is, is one of the great food, uh, cities of America and barbecue is one of, is one of its gifts that, that it gives the city, but, but you go to one and the other and you'll have a different approach. And that, that's the part I love is where, um, the real celebration of the artisan.

1:04:12So, um, you might go to one and they have a, they have a style that they love and they've been doing it for years. And then you'll go to another and they have a style that they love and they've been doing it for years. And it's, it's not, there's still barbecue, but they're actually different and it's really beautiful to see that. And that's, I think that's what, that's what, that's what food culture is. Like it just builds up over time by people who love this style of cooking. Well, I especially love the communal, like how they structure restaurants usually or I don't even want to call it a restaurant because it's a, it doesn't feel like a restaurant.

1:04:47It feels like a tavern or some sort, like, Terry Blacks is like, yeah, it's like, yeah, they also have like paper towels. Yeah, it's messy as you like. And it's a whole roll of paper towel. They're just give you a napkin. They know what you're getting into. Yeah. And it, there's just wood everywhere and it's kind of has this feel like this place has been around forever. It's not changing. I know it's the 21st century with the internet and all this kind of nonsense that you people are building. But really, this is all about the same. Yes. It's been the same for generations. We're doing it the same.

1:05:16That kind of feel, yeah. If you want to escape the world in that way and then truly connect with people. One of the other things that will happen in the town like Austin is there'll be a barbecue joint that is just legendary, right? And then out of that will come someone who wants to do their own barbecue joint and they'll take the learning from that barbecue joint. They'll open up a new one. But it won't be the same as the other barbecue joint. Part of it says like, dude, like don't just do the same thing. Like do something. What do you, what do you have to say? But also part of it is if you're in the world of food as an art form and you want to go open up another barbecue joints, you kind of want to prove yourself.

1:05:57Like I deserve to have a barbecue joint in this town. I know this is one of the holy grills of barbecue and people will follow you like they're following a musician or they're following an artist and they are excited to see what your version is and how well you can pull it off. It's like it's actually, well that's what I love. That's what I mean by like a city with a food culture that Austin has that. There's also like a legend to certain places. Certain places are more than just the food they create. It's like that could be a burden. They have to like live up to the legendary nature of the name.

1:06:35Our restaurant in Boulder, the kitchen is 20 years old. We're very well known, very well respected. And we do have to live up to the name. I think that our restaurant lives up to its name in not just the food. It's like you walk in and you feel the restaurant and that is also something we've just done naturally. The space is 120 year old building. It used to be a brothel. It was a bookstore. I mean, it's like a storied history. That's it. This was a, literally, this was a mining town, right? So back in 1800s, this was built late 1800s. That sort of brothels were, that was a thing. And so there's an actual tunnel under an basement that goes to the local hotel that would be used for going back and forth between the hotel and the brothel without people knowing.

1:07:33And the tunnel is now concreted up. But you can go about 20, 30 feet into the tunnel. But you go into the, you know, the space and it's actually an old space. So you feel like it's been there forever. Yeah. In 2010, you had a life threatening accident that changed the way you see life, the world, also the way you see food and cooking. Can you tell me the story of it? Yeah. So 2010, I was 37. I had opened the restaurant in 2004 and I had loved the restaurant world, loved it. But I didn't really want to grow a restaurant company. That wasn't my goal. And so I got, went back into technology and I had gone from something that I love to something that I like.

1:08:29For me, it was like, it was like chewing soda every day. I just couldn't believe that I had gone from that had changed my life. I had gone back into technology. And now I do do work in technology and I do love it. But I found a better relationship with it. But I was really, really unhappy. From the outside, I was a sort of CEO of a hot startup. From the inside, I was just very unhappy. And I was in Jackson Hole and I was doing these very aggressive snowboard runs and at the time, a pretty good aggressive snowboarder. And I remember seeing myself as like, I've got kids. I need to chill on this.

1:09:07I think it was Valentine's Day. It's the next day. It's a towards Valentine's Day. I'm just going to have a nice day with the family and my life at the time. And we went to a children's run. You do the inner tube run. And the tubes are small, but everyone uses the same tube. So I'm six foot five and my kids are 40 years old and everyone uses the same size tube. It should have been a message to me not to get on this thing. But I went and got on it. And the first run and I went down and you're going super fast, 35 miles an hour. And the tube hit the breaking mats. And it stopped. It was just stopped where it was just through me.

1:09:47My head was facing downhill. So that's created the wrong center of gravity. So instead of breaking it just through me, I landed on my head. My head went into my chest, like compression into my chest. I don't like that. I ruptured my spine at C6 and C7. And in like the blink of a second, I was paralyzed. I was like, like, what? You know, just like, impossible to, impossible to comprehend. And they take me to put this big thing on my halo on my head and they take me to the hospital, which was more of a medical clinic. And I'm just like, what was it going on here? Do you remember your thoughts from the moment it happened to like the way to get to the hospital?

1:10:40I remember being, so this is one of the things that actually the doctor said was the most damage was I was thrown from the tube and I and I hit this big crunch sound in my body. And I knew that I was hurt. But I didn't feel any pain. Just like that's also like, why wouldn't you feel pain? Because you don't have paralyzed, you don't feel pain. And I'm face down on the snow. And the snow is burning my face because you can't do that. You need something. And I found a way to turn myself around so that my face wouldn't be on the ground. But I knew I couldn't move. And they said, actually, it caused more damage than, well, I was the accident created the opening.

1:11:30But once you move your body, the blood goes into the spinal column at a faster rate. And that that is what caused my paralysis. But I remember that. And I remember getting into the the ambulance. Did you think you were going to die at that? In those seconds minutes? It was a different feeling of death. It was more...

1:11:59It was more of a, what is going on here? It was more like I can't make sense of what's going on. It was a moment when I got to the hospital and they did this MRI and the doctor comes up to me and says, look, we've done this MRI and so I'm now in the hospital and I'm like, I can't move. But I also never feel any pain. So I'm like, it's very confusing. Your body looks like you can move it. Like, look, see how I'm moving my hand. Like, it looks like you can do that. And then it just doesn't move. It doesn't, there's no, there's no feedback loop that it's not moving. You'll brain even thinks it's moving, but it's not moving.

1:12:46It's like the worst, like the most terrifying thing. So the doctor says, the way you broke your neck, it was really, that is zero degree angle. That is so rare. But as a result, there is no twisting of the spine. We think that we can get the blood out of your spine. I'll call them and you should get some or maybe all of your movement back.

1:13:12And I was like, oh, okay, I think I'm going to be fine. I guess I'm going to be fine. And then I realized that head tears just streaming down the side of my face. And I was like, whoa, man, I have no idea what's going on. So this kind of intense state of confusion. I wonder if it's a, we are psychological defense mechanism of like taking your way from the obvious possibility of death. Yeah, it was for sure all the defense, all of the defenses were up. I also described it, but there was, there was denial. Yeah, there was, there was this curiosity of like, why is there no pain? Like that's that when they did actually repair me and fix me.

1:14:02There was three days later, the pain was indescribable how much pain I was in. But it was no pain for three days. It's a human body is fascinating. Man. Wow. So they were able, yeah, so they did the surgery, but I had this, I had this very clear voice in my head that I've kind of determined that it's God. I'm not religious, but I don't know how else to describe the voice. And this voice is very clear. You're going to work with kids and food. Okay, where did that come from? I'm like, taxi, I have a restaurant, and then we were working with some kids in schools with like some, you know, helping out local nonprofit and like, no, you're just going to work on kids and food.

1:14:51That's it. And my good friend and Tony and my brother were in the hospital and I was like, I'm going to work on kids and food. You know, because they're like, he's crazy. He lost his mind. But not that they were already, no one was arguing with me, but I was like, I'm just going to do that. I need to say it out loud. And I remember resigning from my job as a CEO from the hospital.

1:15:21And that was it. It was just clear. It was a clear voice. It wasn't for a moment. It wasn't like a flash of light or anything. It was probably two weeks of clear voice of clarity. Clarity. Exactly. Clarity. No monkey brain. Nothing. No monkey brain. Just clarity. So you're not a religious person, but you do call it the voice of God. Who is that God? Do you think like who is that? Where did that come from? Well, I've done I wasca. And I've spoken to what they call mother, Ia, which is another version of God. It's a divine presence. Maybe I think it's a better way to say it. I've also had this debate in my head.

1:16:11And I can, maybe it's just me. I'm talking to me. And it's my peaceful, more kinder, more, less caught up in the emotion of the day, perversion of me. Maybe it's me. Okay. Maybe it is, but it's there. But who are you? How deep does it go? What does you mean? You could be, or so all like the depth of what the human mind even is. It's a gigantic mystery, consciousness, all of it. Who are you? So yeah, maybe it is you, but then maybe in order to build you, we need to build the universe. The entire like you are actually a fundamentally a part of this whole human society. So the pieces of humans that you've interacted with are all within you.

1:17:03And then maybe the history of the humans that came before are also in there. And maybe the entirety of life on earth is also in there. And whatever the, whatever brought life about on earth is in there. So that's all you. Yeah, all of the, which is really true evolution is, it literally is true that that we all are the photons from the sun. You're in a part fish. We all came from, we all came from that. I think this one, you know, so one of the, one of the things I do is meditate. And this was, I've been meditating for many, many years. And what way I meditate is I sit and I listen to my thoughts.

1:17:42And I simply just do that for 15 to 20 minutes. And it just comes as the commas in nervous system. And I might, I might breathe and just be breathed through because it's been a stressful day. And it's just a beautiful way to kind of do it around. I remember I said I used to do a squat chat at the bar after work. Now I go meditate for a little bit better for my, for my health. But meditation I was taught was, Sam Harris actually taught me this was not so much just about watching your thoughts. But realizing that you were a watcher, you're actually a watcher. You're not just like who is the person watching that, that's you actually your thoughts are are floating through your mind, but you are the watcher.

1:18:33And I was like, Oh, that's really interesting. Okay. So I'm going to learn that I'm going to, I'm going to be the watcher. And what I learned was I'm watching these thoughts go by. And there's a consistent other presence. And I'm like, what is that consistent other presence? It's not a thought that is not a, it's not a, not something I can kind of let it float away. And it doesn't even want to float away. It isn't, it's just, it's just a consistent other presence that I can watch and feel. So you are the watcher watching the feelings and thoughts, but there's also another presence next to you almost.

1:19:12Yes. Yeah. That's how I feel. And it's a beautiful presence. It's not, not a presence that is trying to intervene. It's not a presence that is trying to tell you what to do. It's just a beautiful presence. And that might be the, the thing part of the thing you met when you took I wasca. I learned about Mother Iowew, you have this experience of talking to, I actually, I would say the closest thing to breaking my neck, that feeling was I wasca. Can you go through that experience? Because I'm actually traveling to the Amazon jungle in a month. I'm probably do I wasca for the first time. Okay. So I need a preview.

1:19:51Uninficient instruction manual. Yes. Sure. So first of all, I think many, many different ways to do it. So I have done, I've done many, many different ways. There's a very Western medicine approach where you have doctors that look after you during the day, you know, put an eye mask on, you're on a futon and you're really are in a Western medicine setting. And it's frankly for me has been the most powerful experience. I feel the most comfortable because I'm part of Western medicine in my upbringing. The other extreme, but they're kind of in between would be very probably a Peruvian certain areas where you're probably going to go very much about you do it in a community.

1:20:38You do it with others and you you feel people go through their pain and their processing. So I know the whole gamut, but the thing that the thing that I found most powerful about it and profoundly powerful, I would say, for visitors, it's non -recreational. So no, no one should do this for a good time. This is not a good time. This is a very almost traumatic, but again, a beautiful way. It's actually going to say that way, but it's not traumatic. It's profound. So it's more like you don't have, you really leave who you were before behind and then you become the person you will be afterwards. That's never an easy thing.

1:21:30Yes, exactly. And sometimes what I recall was arguing with by the eye and saying, no, I'm fine. What were you talking about? Let's leave me alone. How did that work out?

1:21:50But before 2010, the two transformational experiences you had, you were a very successful tech CEO. Maybe you'd go back to the early days with Zip2. In 1994, you and Elon started Zip2. Tell me a story of that. Yeah, so 94, we actually did a road trip around the US to brainstorm about what we wanted to do after college. What was the road trip? Like, what is it? I was awesome. So we went from Silicon Valley to Philadelphia. My brother's old, like a really, really cool. You know, it's one of those very old BMWs, not ones out from the 60s or 70s. But it wasn't a bit of a card in work. It would break down all the time.

1:22:36But we had made a blast. I remember going through needles on the border of California Arizona. It's a town called Neales. It's the hardest place in America. And the engine was not cooling. So we had to put the heat on. So we've had the heat blasting to cool the engine, keep the engine cool and we keep the windows down because that we can't stand the heat in the car. But actually the outside heat is harder than the inside heat. So you're just in a furnace. You're driving through. Just right. Even I can't imagine doing it in a day. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a wonderful. We took us a few weeks, I think three weeks maybe.

1:23:17First time across America. First, like a road trip like that, yeah, for sure. But it was really not a road trip for tourist sites. We went to the weirdest places. And actually, I would say we didn't go down. We broke down in the weirdest places because that's when we stopped. Yeah. During meeting and interesting people. I remember we broke down on the badlands of South Dakota about an hour from Rapid City. And that road is empty. And so we actually slept in the car because there was a phone. There was just no one around. There were no cell phones in those days. And eventually a trucker picked us up.

1:23:56I was like, man, you guys, the dumbest kids on the planet. It was like 21. He was maybe 22. But he was so nice to us and so kind to us and found us a mechanic in Rapid City. And then found us a tow truck. And you find the most wonderful people. When you're in a place of distress, people do want to take care of other people. They help you. Yeah, I want to help. And especially when you're on a road trip. I've taken a road trip across the United States. And there's a part of people where they really love that. They think part of them wants to do that also wants to escape whatever the local, the struggles, just whatever the mundaneness, the struggle of life are.

1:24:46A road trip is a kind of thing where you're like, you know what? I'm going to get away from it all. And I'm going to experience life in the full. The epic sort of Jack Kerr -Rack way of seeing America. The people, not the tourist sites, just the humans. Yeah, exactly. This was not tourist related. We did, of course, when we stopped at Mount Rushmore at night, which you can see nothing. Yeah, we thought that was hilarious. You couldn't see Mount Rushmore. That's great. It was so well. We physically were here. We could photo of us in the dark. You could just say you went to the Grand Canyon too.

1:25:24And just visit different places when the car broke down. I love it. So yes, you took the road trip before Fawning's I've to. Yeah, so I had an experience in college running a house painting business that for me was my first experience with success. It was very, very hard. It was a franchise where they teach students how to paint houses. But I was good at it. I built a team of 30 people after about two years. And so I was like, I had a taste of, hey, I'm not I'm not unable to do this. In fact, my most vulnerable place, and I remember as an entrepreneur, was I had I had I just loved the idea of Wall Street and Finance.

1:26:11It was kind of a luroed by it. This is in late 80s. I'm in high school. There was a lot of these books. Lyres Poker and others that came out. I was like, oh man, this is awesome. These people must be amazing. So I went to business school and I busted my ass to get like a kick ass summer job. And I got a job in the main banks. And it was in Toronto, but it was like the original Wall Street. And I was so disappointed with the people that I was around. I was just, whoa, I totally misunderstood what what what the banking world is. It was very large bank. I'm sure if I go into a more aggressive, or maybe I would have had a better experience.

1:26:48And I say aggressive, meaning someone was paying attention. Like this was just a just people kind of showing up and not doing much. And and actually, there's funny. So this is great. So the back. So 1991, 1992, so this one of those summers, but the summer job was literally, you go to the printout, the sales for all brokerage houses for the whole company like pile of papers that's maybe four or five feet tall. And you have a pencil and you add things up using your pencil and a calculator. And I had known about Lotus 123 forever. Excel was coming out and I was like, hey guys, you know that is a different way to do this.

1:27:45And they're like, don't talk to us just just a job. Yeah. Do it. Use the pencil. So I went to the head of the data. I just ask you know, here's those days you have the Manila envelope where you can you know, you just write the name of the person that you want this to go to and it'll go to them. It's like email, I guess, but you there's no, yeah, there's no filter. So if you I don't know, there's no fram filter. So I said a note. I wrote a little nice letter to the to the database administrator who I didn't re know. And I said, would you be open to me saying hi and maybe I can get access to the file rather than print the damn thing out and use a pencil.

1:28:23And she responded right away. And we hit it off. I mean, she was great. And so she's like, of course, she can't, I can't believe the guys are doing what they're doing. So if for the first couple of weeks, that was a summer, I wrote a wrote code in Lotus 123 that would, it's going to sound crazy, but you type in the date range. You type in the geography and you type in the, you know, which part of the bank you care about. And it will literally just create a news spreadsheet and it was just the macro would print it out. It was like a magic trick for these guys. And incredible. No, no, it's like it's a sounding that that's, I mean, for me, I was like, guys, this is so obvious.

1:29:15And so I got all that done. And this job was supposed to take three or four months because it's really, you're doing this with a pencil. And now I'd created this macro that you could not just not just do it. You could do it. You could tweak it and say, oh, I want this, this area of the world or this area of this month or, you know, that month compared to that month, you know, all the normal things you could do with this spreadsheet. And the software was on a floppy disk. And I was like, here's a software and just put it, put it into your computer. All right. Now, now, open 123 and it just pops up with a little box that type in your dates and you know, the whole little, I could do the little thing like that.

1:29:54And what I, what I was astounded by was not not so much that it was a magic trick. It was the lack of appreciation for innovation. They just looked at it and they were like, oh, that's nice. And I said, you just, we're going to have someone spend hundreds of hours doing something. And now it's something you can do in a minute. Yeah, if that doesn't feel you with excitement, yeah, like that doesn't move your needle. What the heck? And so I was really disappointed with with the banking world. Anyway, so that was, but that was also fun. I had such a good example, though. Yeah. And then also see the possibility of where that goes.

1:30:36But then, so then I then I got back to business school and I, I canceled all of my business classes, like, possibly could, but I was actually in business school. So I couldn't cancel them all. All finance courses, I was like, I'm done with that industry. I'm not going back. So the vulnerable part for me was my whole family is full of entrepreneurs. And there was, there's this franchise to do house painting. And I genuinely was afraid that I wouldn't be good at it. And I was like, wow, I really am afraid of failure. It's very easy to avoid entrepreneurship. But if your whole family's entrepreneurs, you, and you go in and you aren't good, I was really afraid.

1:31:17You're going to have to face that failure every time you meet your family. Yes. And it's, it's a, I'm fairly wonderful and everything, but they, but pretty much everyone's an entrepreneur. And, and of course, not everyone's perfect. And everyone's doing it successfully all the time. But when you're, when you're young, and you want to prove yourself, it really was putting my heart on my sleeve. I started the, the business in this part of Toronto. And for the first, paint the houses in the summer, but you do all your sales pre before the summer. And for the, you know, all the way until April, I was just not succeeding.

1:31:57And I said, I'm like, oh my god, I'm just, I'm just going to fail. And I, I remember that. I was like, my, my whole nervous system was like, I'm a failure. And I remember how this general manager who, who, you know, he was like, look, you seem like you know what you're doing. Why are you not making any sales? And so he actually went with me on a few sales calls and I was like, and he's like, oh, you're, he was great. You're doing this wrong. You're doing that wrong. You're doing this wrong. And change those three things. And it was like a, like a, like a watershed moment, just like, all of a sudden, and I just followed the instructions.

1:32:43What the sky had told me, all of a sudden, every single sale I would make, I was like, well, I can't believe that I, it was really my, my lack of humility to learn from someone else. I was like, no, I'm going to prove that I can do this without your teachings. And I, I was going to fail. So to you, that humility is essential for the entrepreneur, especially young. I would say if we, if we have an openness to learning, which does require humility, you, you, you course correct, you help get other people to help you course correct. But it does start with humility because if you, if you try and pretend you have all the answers, you don't.

1:33:33So you went from that to finding zip two. That was an interesting time in the history of tech. Yeah. What, I mean, what was it like you mentioned the first people to look at a map, basically, directions? Yeah. So mapping had been on the internet, but vector -based mapping did had not. So that's the ability to zoom in or zoom out and it's really data versus an image that comes across. And we can't, we can't wait to this company called Navtech, my brother and I, and we just asked for the data and they, this is Silicon Valley, they wrote us one page letter that we had to sign and said, here's all of our data that we own it, you don't own it, but you can use it on the internet.

1:34:15And if you ever make any money on it, you have to call us. That was it. Yeah. All right, okay. That sounds great. So we put it up on the internet and back in those days, it might take 60 to 120 seconds to actually give you an answer, but it was amazing. The door -to -door directions, the ability to take a map and zoom in and zoom out. We used these things 10 times a day now. It was amazing. We were the first two humans to see it on the internet. Like this stuff didn't even exist to the world. Like the Navtech was building it for never -laught, for her to never -laught, which would come out a few years later.

1:34:54This was not something that people knew existed. This was something we discovered that it existed. Everyone, let's put it on the internet and share it with the world. What did the two of you feel like, to see that magic? Did you know? Amazing. It was like, what? Like, did you, I mean, the amazing just that it's cool, but also that you could see the future that this could transform. I don't think people understand before this moment, you could not be told your directions. You just could not. Like today, we live in this world where you're told our direction all the time. Before this moment, you could not be told your directions.

1:35:38And all of a sudden, you could. It wasn't like a little thing. There's a bunch of things that we once we have, we take it for granted and that takes like a day for people to transition. Totally. It's like, oh, okay. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's when you see maybe when you're one of the first humans to see that thing, you're like, holy shit. Holy shit, this is going to be used by everyone all the time forever. So Zib too was a success. I was saying it was a success, but it was also a very hard company to build. And I mean it because the internet in those days was a boom time. We were being funded, but it couldn't make any money.

1:36:25And so it was actually really hard. The constant outside criticism that we aren't for real. This is not going to survive. This is not going to end. It started to feel that way. We're like, wow, man, this is a we are doing something that is great that people are using. And we were top 100 website. Most of our work was through folks like the New York Times. So we had even even much, much busier than that. But the, but the, there was just no money in it. Even today, go to Google Maps. There's no money in it. It's just, it's just local search that is needed for everyone. And so it became an add -on to search.

1:37:06But even remember, in those days, you couldn't make money at search either. No one had figured out adwares or anything. They didn't realize how big of a business this was. But we all knew this was a thing. And everyone was using it. But didn't quite know how to make money. Couldn't make money. When we got acquired, it was a bittersweet moment because compact that owned Altavista wanted to merge. So that's sort of regular search with the best search engine at the time. Pre -Google with zip 2, which would be the best local search. And it would be a Yahoo Killer. And the compact just wanted to make money by taking the company public.

1:37:44But they wouldn't give us any stock. They just, they pay out his cash return out actually very well for us. But because the whole internet bubble burst, we didn't know that at the time. And so it was bittersweet because they essentially wanted our company. And we were welcome to stay. But you don't have to. And that feeling was pretty rough feeling. But in retrospect, it opened the door to set us up for an incredible platform to go do beautiful things. You invested in x .com that eventually merged with PayPal. That's a fascinating story there. Also, fascinating at many levels, including the fact that the current social media company formerly known as Twitter is now called X.

1:38:32There's a history has like a, has a rhyme to it. Like it's kind of all hilarious in a certain kind of way. You invested in and helped sell a lot of the initial products for Tesla. Yeah, I still saw in the board of Tesla. It says 20 years now. That amazing years. Yeah. From the roadster, the initial roadster to the first business plan. So I didn't join as a founder. I joined as a founding board member. And so I actually, I didn't write the business plan that I got to read it. And I still have that. I still have it as a part of history. Did you see the future at that time? Like the company that Tesla is today, could you possibly, could you kneel on, imagine it?

1:39:16No. No, I certainly didn't. What I saw in it was a real, for me personally, I was really upset that the general motors had killed their EV car. There's even a movie called, Who Killed the Electric Car. And I knew that the physics of of electric is perfectly fine. I mean, there's no reason why you couldn't use an electric car to drive around. What I would resonate with me with the with the business plan was, taken electric motor, which is really a high performance motor and put it in a sports car and sell it at a high price as a way to enter into the market. Whereas what what others had been doing, his, what these general motors had done is you put it into a really crummy car and you sell it as a commuter vehicle that doesn't really work that well.

1:40:10And it looks ugly as well. They really did everything you could to make that thing as ugly as sin. And then I was like, okay, I get it. We're going to take an appropriate technology and put it in an appropriate car so that when you have, because electric motors that constant torque, you get incredible power, put it in a car that looks like a sports car. So the idea was to put it in the Lotus Elise, redesign it a bit. And even at that point, I was like, this is theoretically good. So I'm going to join and help build it. But I was not convinced that it would work because because general motors had done such a terrible job of making everyone think that these things are terrible.

1:40:54But I was curious. And the time that I fell in love with the company and this mission was I was driving in a, it was called a mule where we take a car and we take the engine out. We put in electric drivetrain. And I drove it, even the dashboard, there's no dashboard. It's just like you've got a steering wheel and it's just like wires and everything around. And I remember this street we were running the Bay Area called Bing Street. And I was just like, no, no, no traffic. So I'm just going to drive this. I'm going to floor it. See what happens. And it was, it was a feeling I'd never experienced before.

1:41:36So it's not gasoline cars have an inertia to them. So you're, yeah, this is just, it was like being shot out of a cannon. And okay, this is going to be real. It's a very spaceship like feeling. Yeah. It's like, whoa, it's like the G, the G4 is full of you bag. So I was like, okay, this is, this is going to be great. This is going to be, this is going to be an interesting, this we're going to create something interesting here. I think the real transformative thing for Tesla was the Model 3. When we were able to get the price down for the world. No, and that was also one of the most challenging Oh my god.

1:42:15Periods for Tesla. And you were docs. We were, we were borderline bankrupt like two or three times that year. I mean, there's just every and everyone was hating on us about whether we get that done. The Model 3 today is incredibly affordable car like a 300 bucks a month kind of lease and $3 ,000 down. That's where you get the scale. That's where you get people who, and by the way, it's a great car. It's even a better Model 3 now than it was five years ago. We don't function the way car companies function, right? We, we function more like how an iPhone company, how Apple works. So our Model 3 today is, it's this year is better than last year.

1:42:55It's like way better. And it's like, we just keep getting better. And the software is a fundamental part of the car and the software keeps improving. Exactly. And we can, we can upload over the air, which was one of the things that people don't often acknowledge. It's the over the air updates. It's like a revolutionary thing. It's not just the autopilot. To me, it's like the over the air updates is even bigger thing than an autopilot. In this like moment of history, because you basically turn the car into the iPhone. Exactly. It's an iPhone with wheels. But actually talking about autopilot, like right after this interview, I'm going to go test out the latest Model 3.

1:43:33You're going to get driven around by the robot. I'm going to get driven around by the car. I'm going to say, I want to go to this barbecue joint. Take me there and park me there. And I'm going to see how it is. And this is our the latest Model 3 that we have out into production. Anyone can buy it. And it's super affordable. And it's like, okay, it's not, you know, full start driving is a journey, right? It's not like there's a destination. It's a journey forever. So let's see where we are on the journey today. And there's been a bit of a push and pull between you and Elon in terms of levels of optimism about deadlines and so on.

1:44:10Timelines about when we'll arrive at the destination. I like that you say, this is a journey. Yeah. For Elon, there's a destination. Exactly. That destination is tomorrow. Yesterday, I think that's a really good insight. I actually live with this concept of a growth mindset, versus a fixed mindset. And it's a philosophical term where where fixed mindset is about the destination. And growth mindset is about learning on the journey. And I think that I'm a happier person because I take that learning on the journey approach, where it's just really frustrating if you're always, it has to be about the destination every time.

1:44:54The nice thing about destination, at least for my personal perspective, as like a programmer engineer is like, it's, it puts a little fire under you to get shit done. Like if that's clear deadline of a destination, you feel the idea. I would say that I still do that, but I call those forcing functions instead of destinations. Sure. Because you're just forcing people to crank on on some code or cookbook or whatever, because you have a date. And if you're really, and sometimes there's a reason, I mean, it's 20th anniversary, you want to get the cookbook out. We have a reason is we didn't make this up out of thin air.

1:45:30And so yeah, that does push you. But just because we have the cookbook, doesn't mean that's a destination. It means it was a forcing function to get it out there. Now we're on the journey. Speaking of journeys, I have to ask you about SpaceX. I mean, the journey that all of humanity is on. Here's the, that is the book about it journey. That is incredibly. It's an interesting moment in the history of humanity that perhaps hopefully will become a multi -principatory species. But SpaceX is also a company. You invested in SpaceX. You were side by side with Elon through through through the highs and the lows to the lows and the highs.

1:46:12So what were some memorable challenges? What were some low points? Sure. From the history of SpaceX. One of the hardest times in SpaceX was we were in the mid Pacific in Quasolin. And my brother had had sold PayPal. He'd done well financially. But in the rocket world, that money goes away really quickly. And we're in this military base in Quasolin. And I think it was the second rocket that blew up. I'm not sure. But we didn't have infinite resources. I certainly didn't have the resources. I mean, I'm there to support brotherly support. But the so -so every rocket launch was to or die. And the first one had blown up.

1:47:03And so the second one, I think it was the second one blew up. And it was so depressing. It was just like, oh, there's nowhere to go. There's no distraction. You're just you're on this military base. You don't re -socialize. It was just we were all together. And I had gotten to know, you know, for me, I'm not part of the team. I'm just there for emotional support or whatever because it's cool. And so I got to know this a couple of people locally. And good to know this one guy who had a mobile home. Be the best view in the world. But it's just a mobile home next with a patch of grass next to it.

1:47:43And I was just desperate to find food that wasn't from the cafeteria because the worst food you can imagine. And so he showed, I met him and he showed me this little tiny little grocery store which had a few things I can tomatoes. And this is again, you're middle of nowhere. It's just nothing fresh. And I made this dish that was kind of a version of an Italian version of chili, you know, just baked beans and sweating onions and tomatoes. It was a big pot of food because it's a group of people. We didn't even have a table. And we just put the big pot in the middle and we had our little paper plates and took a scoop as we needed it.

1:48:26And it was, did you need the gathering place of like food brings people together in the most difficult times. And it was one of my favorite memories because I was able to bring my gift to this group of incredible people that their horse were broken, you know. And to sit there and share a meal and feel the life kind of come back into us and the buddy of the night we're actually having a good time. What a fascinating contrast of rock is kind of representing the peak accomplishment of human beings as a society. And then is the foundation of human society, which is that communal experience. Immunal vulnerable connection, like we mentioned vulnerability earlier, the most vulnerable place.

1:49:13Actually, that's when you have some of your most beautiful meals. Yeah, the descendants of Apes gathering around some baked beans. After wiping our rocket explode. Yeah. What gives you hope about the future of this whole thing we got going on, humanity. If you look at how things have changed over the past, say, 50 years, you can clearly say, oh, wow, poverty rates have gone down, infant mortality has gone down dramatically. All these things have gone down a lot. So if you look at it on a daily basis, you can tell that life is very dramatic, you know, whether it's some, some things blowing up on XOR or on some of the newspapers or whatever.

1:49:59And you can really get caught up into it. But if you look back over the past few decades, things are getting better. And I mean, at the fundamental level, like, are less people hungry? Are more people, are there, I mean, there is war going on, of course, but are there less wars? Yes. And so I think that, I think if we all just step back a little bit, it's less about hope. It's more perspective and reflection. And if I do see a problem, like in case of the obesity epidemic, I work really hard to help with that. I work with nonprofits called Big Green. And we work with 150 nonprofits around the country to help Americans grow food again, get connected to their food, because I really believe growing food changes your life.

1:50:56And so, okay, let's go do that. So then, so I'll help out where I think we really can make a difference. But if you step back a little things are actually getting better, it's just a bumpy ride. And for those of us watching all of this, I think I would love to see more celebrating with the people that are helping. The people that have found their way of helping and just celebrating those people. Yeah. Well, I would also actually, it's a really nice point. I have learned that you really want to celebrate your successes, because even in the greatest scheme of things, I've done this in the startup world where you're constantly facing death, you know, like just why should you even exist?

1:51:38Do your customers want your product or whatever? And then something will happen where you're like, wow, we really nailed that. That's really great. We got a product released or got some good kudos from something. Right, everyone, we're going to go celebrate. And actually, everyone's still like, no, no, we've got all these other problems. No, we're going to go celebrate and then we'll go back to the problems. But if you don't do that, then it's just us building on this kind of, you never really get to celebrate. Mm -hmm. And be grateful. Well, I think this is a good time to go celebrate the very fact that we're alive today.

1:52:12We get to live and enjoy this incredible life. The two of us and have this great conversation and we'll get to celebrate over some scrambled eggs. I'm going to hold you to it. Beautiful. Uh, Kymbal, thank you so much for talking today. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Kymbal Musk. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you some words from Anthony Burdain. Your body is not a temple. It's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.