#441 – Cenk Uygur: Trump vs Harris, Progressive Politics, Communism & Capitalism

28:01So let's make a bunch of distinctions here. So first of all, can you, first of all, are they, quote unquote, guilty? No, they're doing something that is logical and natural, right? So if you're a company, do you want to pay higher taxes or lower taxes? Of course, you want to pay lower taxes, right? Do you want to have higher employee costs or lower employee costs? Of course, you want lower employee costs, right? So, but the government needs to understand that and protect us from that power that they are going to exercise to get to those results. And if you think free markets is there is no government, you read it wrong.

28:36Go back and reread Adam Smith. He says, you must protect against monopoly power. If you do not protect against monopoly power, you will have no free markets. And he's absolutely right. So second distinction is between small business and big business. That's why Republicans will always be like, oh, we're doing this for small business. That's why we got the biggest oil companies in the world, $30 billion in subsidies. What happened to small business, right? So I run a small business and so if people were to say like, hey, maybe there should be exemptions for some of the regulations. If your company has less than five employees, ten employees, 50 employees, et cetera, there's some logic in that.

29:19Because businesses have different stages of growth and they have different interests and different needs in those stages of growth. And we want to facilitate small business growth because that's great for the economy. That's great for markets, freedom, et cetera. But the bigger corporations, even there, there's a third distinction. It isn't that there's certain industries that are worse. There's just that there are industries that are better at lobbying. So anyone who, like right now, number one donor in Washington, a lot of people make a mistake. They think it's APAC or they think it's the oil companies or the banks.

29:54No, it's big pharma. Okay. And who has the most power in this country? Big pharma. So we can't even negotiate the drug prices. I mean, look guys, think about it this way. That's like saying, okay, here's a bottle of water. And normally in the free market that would cost about a dollar, right? And for Medicare, the drug companies come in and go, no, I'm not charging a dollar for that. What are I'm charging a hundred dollars? And the government has to say, yes, sir, thank you, sir. Of course, sir will pay a hundred dollars. That's why compared to communism. Because I can't imagine anything more diametrically opposed to the free market than you, the consumer, have to pay whatever the hell of corporation charges.

30:36That's insanity. Let alone the patents, let alone the fact that the American people pay for the research. And then they make billions of dollars off of it and we get nothing but rob by them. So it's about lobby power. Oil companies have huge lobby power, defense contractors have huge lobby power. It's not that they're more evil. It's just that they have figured out the game better. And they have basically taken the influence they need to capture the market, capture the government, and snuff out all competition. Well, or a lot of companies figured out the game better. So I think a lot of companies are good at winning the right way by building better products, by making people happier with the work that they're doing and winning at the game of capitalism.

31:25And then there's other companies that win at the game of lobbying. And I just want to sort of draw that distinction because I think it's the small subset of companies that are playing the game of lobbying. It's like big pharma. So Lex, first of all, you have to set rules for what makes sense. Oh, I don't like this industry. I don't like this company. Or hey, this company is not doing that much lobbying at this point. They will later when they realize what's going on. So for example, in my opinion, APAC is totally bought almost all of Congress. And so now other countries are going to wake up and go, wait, you could just buy the American government.

32:00So APAC is going to spend about $100 million in this cycle. And they're going to, and then they're getting 26 billion back. So every country in the world is soon going to realize, oh, take American citizens that live there, get them a tremendous amount of money, and just buy the US government. So that, but for corporations, they've already realized that on a massive scale. So for example, in the two industries you gave automotive. So in New Jersey, about a decade ago or so, one of the most powerful lobbies is card dealerships. So at the national level, you got pharma and you've got defense contractors, et cetera.

32:38At the local level, guys who have huge power, number one is utilities, number two is real estate. And then card dealerships are hilariously among the top, right? Because it's local businesses that are financing the politicians at the local level. So they passed the law saying that you have to sell through dealerships. But Tesla doesn't sell through dealerships. And it was intended to bully, intimidate, and push out Tesla out of the market. They then did that in a number of different states throughout the country. So does that make any sense in a democracy? Of course not. Why do you have to sell your product through a specific vehicle or a medium?

33:17You can sell it any way you like. That's the most anti -free market thing possible. Why? It was just total utter corruption. But it's not, but it's perfectly legal, the Supreme Court legalized bribery. So then what happened in that case? So then Elon came in and campaign contributions and reversed it. So now we're in a battle where it's an open auction, right? Different companies are buying different politicians. And then they're pretending to have debates about principles and ideas, et cetera. So now let's look at tech. In the beginning, Facebook was not spending any money in politics or almost any money in politics.

33:54So what happens? They're getting hammered. They get it pulled into congressional hearings and Facebook's got fake news. And oh my God, all these trouble from Facebook. Then Facebook does the logical thing. Oh, it turns out I need degrees these sons of bitches. Okay. So then they hire a whole bunch of Republicans consultants. They go grease all the Republicans and most of the corporate Democrats. And then all of a sudden, we're no longer talking about Facebook at all. And Facebook are angels. And now we've turned our attention to who? Facebook's top competitor, TikTok. Funny how that works. Okay.

34:30And by the way, then Donald Trump goes, oh, I and TikTok's big dangerous company. They're working with China. Okay. And then Jeff, he has comes in on this cycle, part owner of TikTok. And he doesn't want TikTok banished, of course, right? So he gives Trump a couple of million dollars. Trump turns around the next thing goes, we love TikTok. TikTok's a good company, right? So that's a big contributor to influencing what politicians say and what they think. But it's not the entire thing. No, it is. It's 98%. I'll go on mainstream media and they'll be like, oh, I see what you're saying. I can see how that influences politicians about 10%.

35:09I'm like, no, no, it's 98%. So an even a lot of good people think it's 50, 50. They have principles and they have money. No, they have money and this major principles. That's why I wanted to clarify 98 too. Okay. So how do we, how do we fix it? It's really interesting and nice that your pro capitalism and anti -corporism. So how do we create a system where the free market can rule? Where capitalism can rule, we can have these vibrant flourishing of all these companies competing against each other and creating awesome stuff. Yeah. So in the book, I call it Democratic capitalism, as opposed to Bernie's Democratic Socialist.

35:50We can get into that distinction in a minute. But so as Adam Smith said, and anyone who studies capitalism knows, you need the government to protect the market as well as the people. Why do we have cops? Because if we don't have cops, somebody's going to go, well, I like Lexa's equipment. Why don't I just go into his house and take it? So you need the cops to protect you and that's the government. So people say, I hate a big government. Do you? Right? It depends. If your house is getting robbed, the old son, you like the government. But you also need cops on Wall Street. Because if you allow insider trading, the powerful are going to rob your blind and the little guy is going to get screwed.

36:29So that's this easy example. And so if you don't have those cops, the bad guys are going to take over. They're going to set the rules, rig the rules, and their favor. So that's why you need regulation. And so the Republicans on purpose made regulation a dirty word. They're like, oh, all regulation is bad. And then sometimes on the left, people fall for the trap of all regulation is good. Guy I liken on has a great analogy on this Matt Stolar. He's one of the original, I would argue, progressives. And there's about four of us. I'm sure there's more, but that if stayed true to the original meaning of progressivism and populism, me, Matt Stolar, David Seroda, Ryan Grimm.

37:14And it used to be in that original blogger group, there was guys like Glenn Greenwald and other interesting cats. But they went in different directions. So Matt has a great line. He says, if somebody comes up to you and says, how big a pipe do you want? There is no answer for that. It depends on the job, doesn't it? What are we doing? What are we building? I'm going to tell you the size of the pipe, depending on the project. So when people say, are you in favor of regulation or against it? That's an absurd question. Of course you need regulation. It just means laws. So don't kill your neighbor is a regulation.

37:56So my idea is assemble one and one we're going to keep coming back to balance. So when my dad was a small business owner in New Jersey and they inspected the elevator six times a year, that was over regulation. And I said to my dad, so should they not inspected it at all? I'm a young kid growing up and he said, no, no, no, you got to inspected it at least twice a year. I said, why? He said, because in Turkey, sometimes they don't inspected and then the elevator falls. So, so bouncer reason correct regulation to protect the markets and to protect the American people. Yeah, but finding the right level of regulation, especially in, for example, in tech, something I'm much more familiar with is very difficult because people in Congress are living in the 20th century before the Internet was invented.

38:45So like how are they supposed to come up with regulations? Yeah. That's the idea of the free market is you should be able to sort of compete the market regulates. And then the government can step in and protect the market from forming monopolies, for example, which is easier to do. Yeah, but that's a former regulation. But then there's like more check and elevator twice a year. That's a more sort of specific watching, micromanaging. So Lex, here's the deal. There's no way around the laws are made by politicians. Okay. So, and so you can't give up then and go, oh, it's a bunch of schmucks. I think most politicians are just servants for the donor class.

39:28The media makes it sound like they're the best of us. Oh, they deserve a lot of honor and respect and they kiss their ass, et cetera. I think generally speaking, they're usually the worst of us, especially in this corporate structure, right? Because they're the guys who their number one talent is. Yes, sir, no, sir, what would you like me to do with your donor money, sir? Absolutely. I'll serve you completely or 98 percent, right? So in this structure, the politicians are the worst of us. But at some point, you need somebody elected to be your representative to do democratic capitalism so that you have capitalism, but it's checked by the government on behalf of the people.

40:06It's the people that are saying these are the rules of the land and you have to abide by them. So how do you get to the best possible answer, which is related to an earlier question you asked, which is the number one thing you have to do is get big money on a politics. Everything else is near impossible as long as we are drowned in money and whoever has more money wins. And by the way, when it comes to legislation, again, that's true about 98 percent of the time. Like we predict things ahead of time people are like, wow, how did you know that that bill wasn't going to pass or was going to pass?

40:42It's the easiest thing in the world. And we like literally like teach our audience on the young Turks watch you'll be able to see for yourself. And now like our members comment in they do these predictions. They're almost always right, right? Because it's so simple follow the money. So if you get big money out of politics and I could explain how to do that in this act. Then you're at a place where you got your best shot at honest representatives that are going to try their best to get to the right answer. Are they going to get to the right answer out of the gate? Usually not. So they pass a law.

41:16There's something wrong with the law. They then fix that part. They it's a pendulum. You know, you don't want it to swing too widely, but you do need a little bit of oscillation in that pendulum to get to the right balance. By the way, I was listening to Joe Biden from when he was like 30 years old to speeches. He was eloquent as hell. It's fun to listen to actually. And he has a speech he gives or just maybe a conversation in Congress. I'm not sure where he talks about how corrupt the whole system is. And he's really honest and like fun and that Joe Biden is great by the way. That guy. I mean age age sucks, you know, people get older, but he was talking quite honestly about like having to suck up to all these rich people.

42:02And that he couldn't really suck up to the really rich people. They said come back to us 10 years later when you're like more more integrated into the system. But he was really honest about it. And he's saying that's. That's how it is. That's what we have to do and that really sucks that that's what we have to do. Yeah. So we did a video on our TikTok channel. Then and now Joe Biden. This is when I was trying to push Biden out. We should say you were one of the people early on saying Biden needs to step down. Yeah. I started about a year ago because I was positive that Biden had a 0 % chance of winning.

42:39And it turned out, by the way, two days before he dropped out, his inside advisors inside the White House said, yeah, near 0 % chance of winning. Yeah. So we were right all along. You got a lot of criticism for that by the way. Yeah. Yeah. We can come back to that. Yes, I did. And which makes it Tuesday for me. I get a lot of criticism for everything. And by the way, Democratic Party, you're welcome. So but Biden's a really interesting example. I'm really glad you brought it up. So the video on TikTok was just showing Biden then, by now. And you're right, Biden was so dynamic when you see how dynamic he was.

43:18We did like side by side, right? And then you see him now, go and get him early. Anyways, right? You're like, oh, that's not the same guy. I get it. Right? So that got like 5 million views because it resonates. They're like, yeah, yeah, of course. But when he first started to the point you were making Lex, he wanted, in fact, I know because I talked to him about this. His very first bill was anti corruption. Why? Because at that point, everything changes in 1976 to 1978. It's Supreme Court decisions that basically legalize bribery. But remember, Biden is ancient. So he's coming into politics at a time when money has not yet drowned politics.

43:56And in fact, the American population is super pissed about the fact that it's begun. They don't like corruption. So early Biden, because he's reading the room, is very anti corruption. And the first bill he proposes is to get money out of politics. Okay? But as Biden goes on for his epic 200 year career in Washington, he starts to get not more conservative, more corporate. Because he's just taken more and more money. By the middle of his career, he has a nickname, the senator from MBNA. Okay. MBNA was a credit card company based in Delaware. And the reason he had that nickname is because there isn't anything Joe Biden wouldn't have done for credit card companies and corporations based in Delaware, which are almost all corporations.

44:42Okay? So he became the most corporate senator in the country and hence the most beloved by corporate media. And corporate media has protected him his entire career until about a month ago. So for example, in the primaries, both in 2020 and 2024, if you said the senator from MBNA, I guarantee you almost no one in the audience has heard of it. If you heard of a good job, you know politics really well. Okay? But the reason you didn't hear of it is because the mainstream media wouldn't say that's outrageous of Joe Biden to be such a corporate stooge. They'd say that's outrageous of you to point out something that's true and something we reported on earlier.

45:20Okay? And so they protected him at all costs. Now finally, when you get to this version of Joe Biden, he can't talk, he can't walk, he's, he bears no resemblance to the young guy who came in saying that money and politics is a problem. Now he's saying money and politics is the solution. And in 2020, he said, well, I can raise more money than Bernie. I can kiss corporate ass better than Bernie. I'm the biggest corporate ass kisser in the world. So I'm going to raise a billion dollars and you need to support me. Now, of course, he doesn't say it in those words, but that was a message to the establishment and Buttigieg's Klobuchar Obama, Clyburn, everybody goes, oh, that's right.

46:01Biden, Biden, Biden, Biden, not Bernie. I don't know that there's anybody in the country who instinctually dislikes Bernie more than Barack Obama. That's an interesting. I'm not taking attention at this moment. Well, because you mentioned mainstream media, what's the motivation for mainstream media to be corporate is also. So first of all, they're giant corporations. So they're all multi billion dollar corporations. In the old days, we had incredible number of media outlets. So you go to San Francisco, there'd be at least two papers and there'd be a paper boy and I'm going all the way back paper boy on each corner and they're competing with one another.

46:38Literally, they'd be catty corner, right? And one guy's going, oh, I hear all this details. They're trying to get an audience. They're trying to get people interested. So they're populist. They're interesting. They're muckrakers. They're challenging the government. Fast forward to now or not now, but about a decade ago, five years ago, and now ball in that ballpark. Now there's only six giant core media corporations left and it's an oligopoly, right? And they're all multi billion dollar corporations. They all want tax cuts. Half of them are also, especially about 20 years ago, during the Iraq war, half of them are defense contractors.

47:16So they're just using the news as marketing to start wars like the Iraq war and then GE, which owned MSNBC makes a tremendous amount of money. So much more money from war than it does from media that media is a good marketing spend for these corporations. Now that's part of it that they themselves want the same exact thing as the rest of corporations do for corporate rule, lower tax cuts, deregulation so they can merge, etc. But the second part of it is arguably even more important. So where does all that money and politics go? So for example, in 2022, it's just a midterm election, not no presidential should be lower spending.

47:58A ridiculous $17 billion or spend. Okay, on the election cycle. Where does the 17 billion go? Almost all of it goes into corporate media, mainstream media, television, newspapers, radio, they're buying ads like nuts. So we have a reporter at TYT David Schuster. He used to work at MSNBC Fox News, etc. And David wants to the piece about money and politics at a local NBC news station and his editor GM spiked the story and David goes into his office and asks him, so why the story is true. It's a huge part of politics if we're going to report on this issue, we got to tell you what's actually happening.

48:41So he says, David, come here, it puts his arm around his shoulders, takes him to the big newsroom and he goes, you see all this money and politics paid for that. That's really fascinating. So big corporations are giving money to politicians, to different channels. And then the politicians are spending that money on mainstream media. And so there's a vicious cycle where it's in the interest of the mainstream media not to criticize the very corporations that are feeding that cycle. So that actually directs, it's not like corporations are because I was thinking one of the ways is direct advertisement.

49:21Like pharmaceuticals obviously advertise a lot on mainstream media, but there's also indirect, which is like giving the politicians money or super PACs and the super PACs and spend money on the. That's why media never mainstream media never talks about the number one factor in politics, which is money. Like we all know, I mean, now we as we talked about earlier, we see it with our own eyes open auction, any country, any company, anybody that has money, the politicians will now literally say, I am now working for this guy, as Trump says, because he gave me a strong endorsement, which means a lot of money.

49:59Right. And so and the press never covers it almost never right. So you're telling me you're doing an article on the infrastructure bill or build back better, et cetera. And you're not going to mention the enormous amount of money that every lobbyist spent on that bill that's absurd. That's absurd. That's 98 % of the ballgame. And the reason they hide the ball is because they don't want you to know this whole thing is based on the money that they are receiving. And by the way, that one more thing about that likes it's that the ads themselves actually they work and they work pretty well, but that's not the main reason you spend money on ads.

50:43You spend the money on ads to get friendly coverage from the content from the free media that you're getting from that same outlet. And so since every newspaper and every news television station and network knows that the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are their top clients, they're going to get billions of dollars from them. They never really criticize the Republican and Democratic Party. On the other hand, if you're an outsider, they'll rip your face off. That's also really interesting. So if you're an advertiser, if you're a big farmer and you're advertising, it's not that the advertisement works.

51:21It's that the host are too afraid, not like explicitly, just even implicitly, they're self -sensoring. They're not going to have any guests that are like controversial anti -big farmer or they're not going to make any jokes about big farmers and they're not going to make that kind of that continues and expands. That's really interesting. Sometimes it's super direct when I was a host on our MSNBC, I had a company that I was criticizing in my script and management looked at it. And by the way, I used to go off -prompter a lot and it drove them crazy. Not because I wasn't good at it. I think my ratings went up whenever I went off -prompter, but because they couldn't pre -approved the script.

52:04What do they want to pre -approve? Are you going to criticize one of our sponsors, one of our advertisers, etc. We had a giant fight over it and the compromise was I moved them lower in the script but kept them in the story. Sometimes it's super direct like that, but more way more often it's implicit, it's indirect, you don't have to say it. I give you a spectacular example of it so that you get a sense of how it works implicitly. Since G is a giant defense contractor, they own MSNBC at the time of the Iraq War. They fired everyone who was against the Iraq War on air. So Filadanihu, Jesse Ventura, Ashley Bandfield, but Ashley Bandfield did something different with.

52:50She was a rising star at the time. She goes and gives us speech and canzes. Not really even having a policy position, but just talking about the actual costs of this Iraq War and how we should be really careful. They hate that. So they take their rising star and they take her off -air. She goes, okay, good, let me add on my contract. It's okay, I'll go because you're such a star at that time. You could have easily gotten somewhere else. They go, no, we're not going to let you out of your contract. Why not? Are you going to pay me to do nothing? Yeah. Not only that, we're moving your office. Where are you moving it to?

53:24They literally moved it into a closet. And they made sure that everybody in the building saw her getting taken off the air and moved into a closet. The closet is the memo, right? That's the memo to the whole building. You better shut up and do as you're told. Okay, so that way I don't have to tell you and get myself in trouble. It's super obvious. There are guardrails here and you are not allowed to go beyond acceptable thought. An acceptable thought is our sponsors are great, politicians are great, the powerful are great. So how do we begin to fix that? And what exactly we're fixing is that the influence of the lobbyists, the influence of like it feels like there's companies have found different ways to achieve influence.

54:11So how do we get money out of politics? So it's very difficult but doable and we will do it. But in order to do it, the populist left and the populist right have to unite. And by the way, that is why we have the culture wars. That's why you're voting for Trump. No chance. Okay, so we can get into that in a minute. So the culture wars are meant to divide us. If we get united, we have enough leverage and power to be able to do it. But you can't do it through a normal bill because if you do it in a bill, the whole point of capturing the Supreme Court was to make sure that they kill any piece of legislation that would protect the American people saying the Supreme Court is also captured by this.

54:51Oh, 100%. So, okay. So let me explain. Again, people for the uninitiated, they think, oh, that sounds conspiratorial. Well, in this case, that's actually somewhat true because people now know about this is the Palo memo, right? Most infamous political memo in history, Lewis Powell writes a memo for the Chamber of Commerce in 1971. That's basically a blueprint for how the Chamber of Commerce can take over the government. And Lewis Powell explains one of the most important things you have to do is take over the media. But even more important than that is taking over the Supreme Court because the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of what is allowed and not allowed.

55:29And he says, we need quote activist judges to help business interests on the court. Okay. And then Nixon reads the memo and goes, that sounds like a really good idea. How about I put you on the Supreme Court? And he puts Lewis Powell, the guy who wrote the memo on the Supreme Court, where he's the deciding vote in Balani and Buckley. So, Balani's, those two decisions are 76 and 78. And what they say is, yeah, yeah, I read the Constitution and it says that the money is speech. No, it isn't. And no, it didn't. That's not even close to true. They just made it up. And they said, okay, and corporations, they're human beings.

56:15No, they're not. That's preposterous, right? And they have the same inalienable rights as human beings and citizens do. And money is speech and speech is an inalienable right. So corporations can spend unlimited money in politics. And there goes our democracy gone. Okay. So citizens united just shot a dead horse with a gatling gun and made it worse and put it on steroids. But it was already dead in 78. So that's why every chart you see for the rest of your life, you'll see this every chart in about the American economy starts to diverge in 1978. So until 38 to 78, we've golden 40 years of economic prosperity.

56:59We create the greatest middle class the world has ever seen. And our productivity is sky high, but our wages match our productivity after 78 productivity still sky high, best in the world. Okay, sometimes people all the American workers lazy, not remotely true. We work our ass off. Okay. But wages flatline. And they've been flatlining for about 50 years straight. And the reason is because the Supreme Court made bribery legal. So in order to get past the Supreme Court, you only have one choice. That's an amendment. And so you have to get an amendment. Amendments are very difficult. But so for example, you need two thirds of Congress to even propose them.

57:44So well, why would Congress propose an amendment that would take away their own power? Right. Because almost everybody in Congress got there through corruption. Their main talent is I can kiss corporate ass better than you can. Right. So I they take the most amount of a person with more money in Congress wins 95 % of the time. Right. But the good news is the founding fathers were geniuses and they put in a second outlet. They said, or two thirds of the states can call for a convention where you can propose an amendment. And after an amendment is proposed, then three quarters of the states have to ratified.

58:19That was what makes it so difficult because getting three quarters of the states. There's so many red states, so many blue states getting three quarters of the states to agree is near impossible. But there is one issue that the whole country agrees on. 93 % of Americans believe that politicians serve their donors and not their voters. So this is the one thing we can unite on. If we unite on this, we push our states to call for a convention. We all go to the commission together. We bring democracy alive and we propose amendments to the Constitution. And the best amendment gets three quarters of the state to ratify.

58:54You go above the Supreme Court and you solve the whole thing. So if 93 % of people want this, why hasn't it happened yet? I mean, the obvious answers, there's a corporate control of the media and the politicians. But it seems like our current system and the megaphone that the president has, you should be able to kind of unite the populist left and right. So it shouldn't be that difficult to do. Like why hasn't a person like Trump was a billionaire or on the left, a rich businessman run just on this and win? Well, eventually they will. Right. And so that's why I actually have a lot of hope, even though things seem super dark right now.

59:37So and that's why I was for Bernie. So I can come back to that. But why hasn't Trump done it as easy? He's like, what am I a sucker? The guy gives me money. I do what the guy wants. Why would I get rid of that? That's how I got under power. And so that's how I'm doing it now. I get go to Miriam, Edelson is to give me a hundred million dollars and I'll let Israel annex the West Bank. Right. So go to the oil companies to give me a billion dollars. And I'll give you tax subsidies. I'll let you drill. I'll take away regulation. Why would I stop that? You think he likes money more than he likes being popular because there's a big part of this populist in a sense that like he loves being admired by large masses of people.

1:00:18Yeah. So and you're absolutely right. But that is the fault of Maga. And so Maga, you're screwing populists in a way that is infuriating. Okay. And smart libertarians like Dave Smith have figured this out. And that's why he's just as mad at Trump as I am. And it's because he took a populist movement. And he redirected it for his own personal gain. Maga figure it out. Come on. Right. And so if you say, oh, you think Democrats have figured out that these polls. No, they haven't largely haven't figured it out either. And I think there's blue Maga. And I can talk about that as well. But for those of us on the populist left.

1:00:59Yeah, we're not enamored by politicians. And for example, when Bernie does the wrong thing, we call him out. Well, I'm not Bernie's not my goddamn uncle. I don't like him for some personality reason. It's not a cult of personality. You do the right thing. I love you for you. Do the wrong thing. I'm going to kick your ass for it. Right. So but Donald Trump does this massive ridiculous corruption over and over again. And Maga is like, I'm here for it. Love it. As long as you're doing the corruption. I'm okay with it. What is Trump? What is Trump say about getting money out of politics disease? He says nothing about it.

1:01:27Go and Maga. Why haven't you held them take out? Like so when Bernie it helped Biden take out $15 minimum wage from the Senate bill on the first bill that was introduced in the Biden administration. We went nuts. We did a petition. We sent in videos to Bernie. Our audience going don't kill it. Bernie don't kill it. And so Bernie then reintroduced it as an amendment. It got voted down, but he did the right thing. Right. That is us holding our top leader accountable and saying, you better get back on track. Okay. Because we're not here for you and your personal self and grant a grandisement. We're here for policy.

1:02:04Right. And if Maga was actually here for policy, they would have absolutely leveled Trump on the fact that he, I mean, remember what he ran on drain the swamp. That's why he won in 2016. Right. So I predicted on ABC right after the DNC and Hillary Clinton was up 10 12 points, whatever she was. And I said, Trump would win. Okay. And they the whole panel laughed out loud. Right. They're like, I get it. Get all out of this crazy guy. I said he's a populist who seems to hate the establishment in a in a populist time. And so and drain the swamp is is a great slogan. And I knew he would win when he was in a Republican debate.

1:02:44And he said, I paid all these guys before I paid them and they did whatever I wanted. And I was like, that's so true. Right. And people will love that. And especially Republican voters will love that. I actually have a lot of respect for Republican voters because they actually genuinely hate corruption. So what would an amendment look like that helps prevent money being an influence in politics. So I started a group called a wolf pack. And thank you wolf dash pack .com. And the reason why I named a wolf pack is because everyone in Washington, I knew would hate that name. It's a populist name and everybody in Washington, Snickers, you're supposed to name it Americans for America and just trick people, etc.

1:03:29No, no, wolf pack means we're coming for you. Okay. We're not coming for you in a weirdo physical or violent way. We're coming for you in a democratic way. Okay. So we're going to go to those state houses. We're going to get them to propose a commission. And we did it in five states. But then Democratic party started beating us back. We'll get to that. And and so we are going to overturn your apple court. And we're going to bring put the American people back in charge. So what is the amendment say number one. A lot of people will have different opinions on what it should say. And that's what you sort out in a convention.

1:04:04So for example, one of the things that conservatives can propose, which makes sense is term limits. Because with the reason why these super old politicians are in charge is because they provide a return on investment. So you know, if you give to Biden, Pelosi or McConnell, they're going to deliver for you. They love that return on a mess. They don't want to risk on a new guy. The new guy might have principles. Ew, or you know, might want to actually do a little bit for his voters. Whereas, where is these old, you know, and every corrupt system has these old guys hanging around that help maintain power, etc.

1:04:41So my particular proposal in the amendments would be a couple of things. One is end private financing of elections. So if and look, if you're a business person, you're a capitalist, you know this with absolute certainty. If somebody signs your check, that's the person you work for. Right. So if private interests are funding politicians, the politicians will serve private interests. And then you're going to get into a fight like Elon did in New Jersey, where the car dealerships and Tesla are getting into an auction. Can I hear 100 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000 ,000, 000 ,000, of this corrupt interest.

1:05:44And so they tell you, oh, you don't want to publicly finance. Oh my God, you'd be spending like a billion dollars on politicians. Brother, they're spending trillions of dollars a year of money because they're financed by the guys that they're giving all of your money to. So can you educate me? Does that prevent something like citizen United? So like super PACs are all gone in this case. So all gone. So indirect funding is also indirect funding is gone direct funding is gone. You have to set up some thresholds. Not everybody can just get money to run. You have to prove that you have some sort of popular support.

1:06:17So signature gathering, you would still allow for small money donations like up to $100 something along those lines. That's not 5 ,000 or whatever it is now. Yeah, I think 5 ,000 to high, but those are fine debates. Yeah, you know, but you basically want to create an incentive. Everything is about incentives and business incentives. Again, capitalists realize this better than anyone else. So you want to set up an incentive to serve your voters, not your donors. So if you take away private donors, well, there goes that incentive. And that's gigantic. And then if you set up small grassroots funding as a way to get past a threshold to get the funding to run an election, well, then good because then you're serving small donors, which are generally voters, right?

1:07:01So that's what you want. And ending private financing is critical. But the second thing is ending corporate personhood. So this is where you get into a lot of fights because you have two reasons. One is some folks have a principled position against it. And they say, well, I mean, the Sierra Club is technically a corporation, ACLU is technically a corporation. And so if you end corporate personhood, then they, you know, that could endanger their existence, right? No, it doesn't endanger their existence at all, right? So it doesn't endanger GM or GEs existence. It doesn't endanger anybody's existence.

1:07:39The corporations exist. We're not trying to take them away. I would never do that, right? That's not smart. That's not workable, etc. We're just saying they don't have constitutional rights. So they have the rights that we give them. And by the way, read the founding fathers is also in my book. They hated corporations. The American Revolution was partly against the British East India Company. And so the Tea Party in Boston was against that corporation. They threw their tea overboard. It was not against the British monarchy. And so they and all the founding fathers warned us over and over again.

1:08:18Watch out for corporations, okay? Because once they form, they will amass money and power and look to kill off democracy. And they were totally right. That's exactly what happened. And so it's not that you don't have them. It's that you through democratic capitalism, you limit their power. They definitely, you can give them a bunch of rights. You say, hey, you have a right to exist. You have a right to do this, this and this, okay? But you do not have to have constitutional rights of a citizen. And so you don't have the right to speak to a politician by giving them a billion dollars. And you believe that the people will be able to find the right policies to regulate and tax the corporations such that capitalism can flourish still.

1:09:04Yes, you know why? Because I'm a real populist and I believe in the people. So I drive this establishment crazy because they don't believe in the people. They think, oh, check out, have you seen, MAGA? Have you seen these guys? Have you seen the radicals on the left? We're so much smarter. You know how many Ivy League degrees we have, right? And we know what we're doing. No, you don't. No, you're, everybody to some degree looks at for their own interests, right? Why I like capitalism and why I love democracy is because it's the wisdom of the crowd. And so in the long run, the crowd is right. Oftentimes in the short term, we're wrong, okay?

1:09:41But the wisdom of the crowd in the long run is much, much better than the elites that run things. The elites say, well, we're so smart and educated. So we're going to know better. What's good for you? No, brother, you're going to know what's better for you. And so here's something that a lot of people get wrong on the populist left and right. They think all those guys are evil. They're not evil. I met them. I worked at MSMBC. I worked on cable. I went to Wharton, you know, Columbia Law. I know a lot of those guys. And so they're not at all evil. They don't even know that they're mainly serving their own interests.

1:10:14They just naturally do it, right? And so they think the carrot interest loophole makes a lot of sense, right? They think corporate tax cuts makes a lot of sense. You not not getting higher wages. You're not having healthcare. It makes a lot of sense. It doesn't make any goddamn sense, but they get themselves to believe it. And that's another portion of the invisible hand in the market. So there's problems with every every path. So the elite, like you mentioned, can be corrupted by greed, by power and so on. But the crowd, I agree with you, by the way, about the wisdom of the crowd versus the wisdom of the elite, but the crowd can be captured by a charismatic leader.

1:10:51So the problem with populism, and I'm probably a populist myself, the problem with populism is it, it can't be, and has been throughout history captured by bad people. But if you say to me, trust the elites or trust the people, I'm going to trust the people every single time. Well, that's why you're such an interesting, I don't want to say contradiction, but there's a tension that creates the balance. So to me, in the way you're speaking, my result in hurting capitalism. So it's easy to, in fighting corporatism to, to hurt companies, to go too far the other way. Yeah, of course, of course. And so like when you talked about corporate attacks, so what's the magic, what's the magic number for the corporate attacks?

1:11:40Because if it's too high, like companies leave. Yeah, companies have so much power right now. This pendulum has swung so far, and we're guys were almost out of time. The windows closing, the minute private equity buys all of our homes, the residential real estate market, we're screwed, we're indentured servants forever. Okay, there goes wealth creation for the average American. So you're right, like this, it's, that it's not a contradiction. It's a tension that is inevitable to get to balance. The reason why people kind of can't figure me out, they're like, well, you're on the left, but you're a capitalist, etc.

1:12:22That's not a contradiction. That's getting to the right balance. And in order to do that, like if you say, well, if we change the system, I'm afraid of change, because what if the pendulum swings too far in the other direction, right? Well, then you would be opposed to change at all times. So if you do that, it actually reminds me of the Biden fight, right? So I'm like, guys, he has, he has almost no chance of winning. He stands for the establishment. He can't talk. But then the number one pushback I'd get from Democrats was, yeah, but what if we change? It's so scary. We don't know about Kamala Harris.

1:13:02What if it's not Kamala Harris? It's so scary. Don't change. And I'm like, yeah, but if you say change might be worse, it also might be better. And you're at zero. Anything is better, right? And right now, in terms of corruption in America, we're at 98 % corruption. So we got 2 % decency left. Brother, this is when you want change. And so took, and and and Lex, if you actually have wisdom of the crowd, just like a supply and demand, and how it works in economics, it works the same way in a functioning democracy. You go too far, you come back in. So for example, when Reagan came into office, me and my dad, my family, we were Republicans.

1:13:48Why? At that point, the highest marginal tax rate was at 70%. 70 % is too high, right? Now they then he brought it all the way down to 28%. That's too low, right? So and and that's how the system modulates itself. Already, we were headed towards corruption, and because it's the 80s now, we're past 78, magic 78 marker, right? So and even quarter was way more conservative economically than people realize, because we're already getting past it by the time it's in his administration. But the bottom line is, yes, you're going whenever you have real wisdom of the crowd, whether it's in business or in politics, you're going to have fluctuation.

1:14:28You're going to have that pendulum swinging back and forth. You don't want wild swings, communism, corporatism, right? You want to get to, hey, where where's the right balance here between capitalism and what people think is socialism? Yeah, so I guess I agree with most of the things you said about the corruption. I just wish there would be more celebration of the fact that capitalism and some incredible companies in the history of the 20th century has created so much wealth, so much innovation that has increased the quality of life on average. They've also increased the wealth and equality and exploitation of the workers and this kind of stuff.

1:15:07But you want to not forget to celebrate the awesomeness that companies have also brought outside the political sphere, just in creating awesome stuff. Look, I run a company. Yeah. And so I don't want companies to go away. And I don't want you to hate all companies. I think young Turks are a wonderful company. Right? We provide great healthcare. We take care of our employees. We care about the community, et cetera. And we're building a home nation online on those principles in the right way to run a company. Right? But guys, we're at the wrong part of the pendulum. The companies have overwhelming power and they're crushing us.

1:15:48We're like that scene in Star Wars with the trash compactors closing in on them, the walls are closing in. We're almost out of time because they've captured the government almost entirely. They're only serving corporate interests. We've got to get back into balance before it's too late. And that's why I care so much about structural issues. So I formed just the Democrats. So that's a OC, et cetera. That's people know it as the squad. They know it as just Democrats, et cetera. One of the co founders of that. And my number one rule was no corporate pack money. Okay. So you're not allowed to take corporate pack money.

1:16:27By the way, now Matt Gates and Josh Hawley have stopped taking corporate pack money and they've become to some degree on economic issues, genuine populace. It's amazing. It happens overnight. All of a sudden, they're holding, they're talking about holding corporations accountable, et cetera. Now just Democrats wind up having other problems. They got too deep into social issues, not economic issues. There's a general sort of criticism of billionaires, right? This idea. No, you could say that billionaires are avoiding taxes and they're not getting taxed enough. But I think under that flag of criticizing billionaires is criticizing all companies that do epic shit, that build stuff.

1:17:10Oh, okay. So great stuff. That's what I'm worried about. I don't hear enough like genuine, you know, I like celebrating people, I like celebrating ideas. I just don't hear enough genuine celebration of companies when they do. No, because okay. So are you right? Not about companies, but about capitalism. Yes, because you know, you look at life expectancy 200 years ago and you look at it now and you go, wow, holy shit, we did amazing things, right? So and what happened in the last 200 years? We went from dictatorships more towards democracy, wisdom of the crowd. We went from, you know, serfs and indentures, servants and a nobility that holds the land to more towards capitalism.

1:17:58And boom, the crowd is right. Things go really well. The advances in medicine are amazing. And medicine is a great example. So and on our show, I point all those things out and I say, look, we hate the drug companies because of how they catch it a government, right? But we don't hate the drug companies for creating great drugs that those drugs save lives. They just save my life. They save countless millions upon millions of lives. So the right idea isn't shut down drug companies. The right idea is don't let them buy the government, right? So and I know we get back into our instinctual shells. So on the left, there'll be, oh, we should get rid of all billionaires.

1:18:37Why? Like, how does that fix the system? Tell me how it fixes the system and I'm all yours, right? My solution is end private financing. Then you could be a billionaire all you like. You can't buy the government, right? That's a more logical way to go about it. I've never worn an eat the rich shirt and it drives me crazy. I'm like, you would have eaten FDR, right? And FDR is the best president, most populous president in my opinion. And so no, there's wonderful rich people. Of course, of course, there's a range of humanity, right? But you don't want to get rid of the rich. You don't want to get rid of companies, but you also don't want to let them control everything.

1:19:15So okay, I'll give you an example. That's really, and that informs a lot of how I think about things, which is my dad. So my dad was a farmer in Southeast Turkey near the Syrian border. No money. In fact, his dad died when he was six months old and he, and so they were saddled with debt. And no electricity in his house, like as poor as poor gets. And he wound up living the American dream. And so how did he do that? What made the difference? Well, what made the difference is opportunity, right? So I'm a populous because my dad was in the masses, right? And, and the elites say the masses are no good.

1:20:01We're smart. You're not. We're educated. You're not. We at meritocracy, we talk about that. We have earned merit. And if you're poor middle class, you have not earned merit. Okay, you're useless and worthless. And I hate that. So what did Turkey do back in the 1960s that liberated my dad? They provided free college education. You had to test into it. Okay. But the top 15 % got a free college education at the best colleges in Turkey. So my uncle saved all of our lives when he came to my dad and said, do you like working on this farm? My dad's like, fuck no, right? It's super hot. It's super hard.

1:20:41It's this they got to get up at four in the morning. If they're lucky, they have family, the next door gives them a mule. If they're not, they got to carry the shit themselves. Okay. He's so my uncle told them work just this hard in school. And you'll be able to get a house, a car, pretty girls, et cetera. So my dad works as a self gets in the school and he comes out of mechanical engineer and starts his own company. He creates a company in Turkey, hires hundreds of people. He then moves to America, creates a company here, hires tons of people. Right? So do I hate companies? No, my dad set up two companies.

1:21:16And I saw how much it benefited people. I saw how much employees would come up to my dad 20, 30 years later in the street in Huggham. And they tell me as a young kid, your dad's the most fair boss we ever had and we love him for it. Right? That's how you run a company. And he taught me the value of hard work. But the reason I brought up here is because he taught me, look, like skill and ability is a genetic lottery. So you're not going to just get the rich to win all the genetic lottery. No, there's going to be tons of poor kids and middle class kids who are just as good if not better. You have to provide them the opportunity, the fair chance to succeed.

1:21:57You have to believe in them. So this isn't about disempowering anyone. It's about empowering all of those kids who are doing the right thing or smart and want to work hard so they can build their own companies and add to the economy. What what in general is your view on meritocracy? So I love meritocracy. I wish that we lived in a meritocracy and I want to drive towards living in a meritocracy. So that's why I don't like equality of results. So okay, now people that are on the left will get super mad at that and go, what do you mean? Okay, brother, let's say you're at work and you got one guy who's working his ass off and the other guy, let's go, I don't care, I'm not going to do it.

1:22:38Right? Well, the guy who works super hard has to pick up the slack. Now he's working twice as hard, right? And now you want the same results. You want the same salary as that guy? No, brother, no, he's working twice at four times ten times harder than you. That's not fair. Fairness matters. I lived, we wound up, I mean, we were in the suburbs of Jersey, but we wound up in freehold eventually and we lived across a farm, which is kind of, and central Jersey it happens, right? And it was called fair chance form. I was like, I don't know, it's amazing, right? And I love that. That's the essence of America.

1:23:14And that's what I want to go back to. So we've got to create that opportunity of not just because it's the moral thing to do, but because it's also the economically smart thing to do. If you enable all those great people that are in in lower income classes and middle income classes, you're going to get a much better economy, a much stronger democracy. So that's the direction we got. So again, it's about balance, but what do you think about DEI policies, say in academia and companies, the movement as it has evolved? Where's that on the balance? Is that how far is it pushing towards equality of calm versus equality of opportunity?

1:24:05Okay, so now we're getting into social issues, right? So this is where we all rip each other apart and then the people at the top laugh their ass off at us and go, we got to fight over trans issues. They're killing each other. It's hilarious and they're so busy. They don't realize we're running the place, right? Okay, but let's engage. Some people will look at DEI and go, well, that just gives me an opportunity, just like anyone else. I love DEI. Another person will look at it and go, no, that gives that says that you should be picked above me and I hate DEI, right? So the reality of DEI is a little bit more complicated and so, but you got to go back.

1:24:45So first, did we need affirmative action in the 1960s? Definitely. Why? All the firefighter jobs in South Carolina as an example are going to white guys, all the longshoreman jobs in New York, LA, wherever you have it are all going to white guys because that's how the system was. Yes, also in the North, right? So we now are in a civil rights area. We decide we're going to go towards equality minorities. In that case, mainly black Americans had to find a way to break in. I'm not trying to, like if you're a longshoreman and it's a good job, you naturally want to pass it on to your son. I get your instinct.

1:25:21I don't hate you for it, right? But we got to let black kids also have a shot at it, right? So you need it in the beginning. But at a certain point, you have to phase it out. So when I was growing up, it's now in the late 80s, early 90s. I hated affirmative action and I have been principled on it from day one and to this day. I don't, I'm not in favor of affirmative action. I say it on the show all the time. Why? I'm a minority being a Turk and grew up, Muslim. I'm an atheist now, but but generally speaking, a Muslim is certainly a minority in America and pretty much a hated one overall. So, but I didn't check off Muslim or Turkish or any ethnicity when I applied to college because I believe in a meritocracy as we were talking about.

1:26:08But we don't really have a meritocracy now. And so, but so I can come back to that. But, but right now, but so I didn't check it all because I didn't want an unfair advantage because I want to earn it. I want to earn it. So now I'm in law school and I'm hanging out with right wingers because at that point, I'm a Republican. And one of the guys says to me about one of our black student going to Colombia. He says, oh, I wonder how he got in here. God, that is the problem with affirmative action. It devalues the accomplishments of every minority in the country. You have to transition away from it.

1:26:47If you don't, it sets up a caste system and that caste system is lethal to democracy. So, does D .I. Go too far in some instances? Yes. But is it a boogie man that's going to take all the white jobs and make them black, let's jump would say black jobs, right? And give minorities too much power, et cetera. No, the idea isn't to rob you and to give all the opportunity to minorities. The idea is to make it equal. But as the pendulum swings, did it swing too far in some directions? Yes. The left can't acknowledge that and the right things can't acknowledge that, of course, at some point, you got to give a chance for others to break in so they have a fair chance.

1:27:28By the way, Michelle Obama had a good line about the black jobs and the D .I. C. C. C. where some of you should tell Trump that the presidency might be just one of those black jobs. Anyway, but what do you think the left doesn't acknowledge when D .I. gets ridiculous, which it in certain places and in certain places at a large scale has gotten ridiculous? Because people are taught to just be in the tribe therein and to believe it 100%. Like I've gotten kicked out of every tribe. I might be the most attackman in internet history, partly because we've been around forever and partly because I disagree with every part of the political spectrum because I believe in independent thought.

1:28:13In the minute you vary a little bit, people go nuts. And so the far left tribe is going to go with their preset ideology just like the far right tribe is. So for example, on trans issues, we've protected trans people for over 20 years in the young Turks. We fought for equality for trans people and for all LGBTQ people. For two decades, we did it way before anyone else did. When Biden came out in favor of gay marriage in 2013, we're like, this is comically late. So like we're all supposed to like congratulate him in the year 2013 to the things gay people should have the same rights of straight people.

1:28:55And then he had to push Obama to get there. Right. So on the other hand, I'm like, guys, if you allow trans women to go into professional sports, not at the high school level, but professional sports. But let's say they go into MMA or boxing. And a trans woman, I mean, it happens in boxing. It happens in MMA punches a biological woman so hard that she kills her. Right. So you're going to set back trans rights 50 years. I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to help you. You have to do bounds of reason. So when I say simple things like that, and I say you give LeBron James every hormone blocker on planet earth, he's still going to dominate the WNBA.

1:29:41Okay. It would be comical. He might score 100 points a night. Okay. And they'll say, oh, that's outrageous. And they some have called me Nazi for saying that trans women or that professional leagues should make their own decisions on whether they allow trans women or in or not. So why do they say that? Because they're so besieged. They think we cannot give an inch. We cannot give any ground. If you give any ground, you're not. Okay. So we've got to get out of that mindset.

1:30:17You're like the rest of the country to go towards your extreme position. So what do you think we are not in the meritocracy? So because of the corruption, it's so for example, but there's also, but remember, corporate media is the matrix and they plug you into cable, right? In the old days. Now it's a little bit different because of online media, but especially 10 years ago, and remember we started 22 years ago. So I've been losing my mind over how obvious corporate media corruption has been for decades now, right? But no one acknowledges it until online media got stronger. But one of the myths that corporate media creates is the myth of meritocracy.

1:30:58Not that meritocracy can't exist or shouldn't exist, but they pretend it exists today. So the problem with that myth, Lex, is that it gets people thinking, well, if they're already rich, they must have merited it by definition. So all the rich have merit. And the reverse of that, if you're poor middle class, well, you must not have merited wealth. So you're no good. We don't have to listen to you. And that's a really dangerous off -light idea. And so if we get to meritocracy one day, I'll be the happiest person in America. But right now, look, here I give you an example that I put in the book.

1:31:42And it's not us. This other folks at this YouTube video, I can't even quite find who they were, but it was a brilliant video. And they said, we're new 100 yard race. But hold on, before we start, anyone who has two parents take two steps forward, anyone who has went to college taking other two steps forward, anyone who doesn't have bills to pay for education anymore, take two steps forward. They do all these things, and then at the end, before they start, somebody's 20 yards from the finish line, and a lot of people are still at the starting line. And then they go, okay, now we're going to run a race.

1:32:16I was right next to the finish line wins. And they go meritocracy. So the challenge there is to know which disparities when you just freeze the system and observe are actually a result of some kind of discrimination or flaw in the system versus the result of meritocracy of the better runner being ahead. That's right. There are some parts that are easy to solve. So, if you donated to a politician and he gave you a billion dollar subsidy, that's not meritocracy. So if you follow the money, you can see the flaws in the system. Exactly. And so, and again, nothing's ever perfect at any snapshot of history, or of the moment, you're going to be at some point in the pendulum swing.

1:33:02But if you let, if you trust the people, and you let the pendulum swing, but not wildly, then you're going to get to the right answers in the long run. So you think this woke mind virus that the right refers to is, is a problem, but not a big problem. No. So the right wing drives me crazy. So look guys, your instincts of populism is correct. Your instincts of anti corruption is correct. Right. And I love you for it. And so, and in a lot of ways, the right wing voters figured out the whole system screwed before left wing voters did it. I shouldn't say left wing voters because progress isn't left wing.

1:33:43I've been saying it for not only decades, but maybe centuries, right. But democratic voters, a lot of democratic voters, some of them actually like this current system. Some of them have a lot of them have been tricked into liking this current system. And the left should be fighting against corruption harder than the right. But right now, unfortunately, that's not the case. So there's a lot of that I like about right wing voters. Okay. But you guys get tricked on social issues so easily, right. So how many people are involved in trans high school sports and a girl who should have finished first in that track, they, you know, race in the middle of Indiana, finished second.

1:34:24First of all, this is the big crime. This is and how many people are involved about seven, 13 out of a country of 330 million people. And you can't see that that's a distraction, right. So and every, everything they did that is like bait that the right wing media puts out there. They run after I mean, Tucker Crossin doing insane segments about M &M should be sexier. Uh, potato, Mr. Potato head has gender issues. Guys, get out of there. Get out of there. It's a trap. Okay. Yeah. That doesn't mean that they're absolutely. Uh, it doesn't mean that there's larger scale issues with things like D .E .I.

1:35:03That aren't so fun to talk about or a viral to talk about an anecdotal scale. There is a D .I. does create a culture of fear with with cancer culture and there it does create a kind of culture that limits the freedom of expression. And it does limit the meritocracy in another way. So you're you're basically saying forget all these other problems. Money is the biggest problem. So first of all, on AOC as an example, and I don't mean to pick on but she won through the great work of her and Shorikachakrabarti and Corbin Trent and others who are leaders of the Just Democrats that went and helped her campaign.

1:35:48They were critical help. And we all told her the same thing. So it's not about me, me, me. And so we all said you've got to challenge the establishment and you've got to work on money and politics first. Because if you don't work on money and politics and you don't fix that, you're going to lose on almost all other issues. But she didn't believe us because it's uncomfortable. And all the progressives that went into Congress, they drive me crazy. They think, oh no, no, you're exaggerating. No, these are and the minute they get in all of a sudden, my colleagues, right? Your colleagues hate you and they're going to drive you out.

1:36:23You're a sucker. And Jamal Bowman, Cory Bush, what do they do? They drove them out, Marie Newman drove them out, right? And because they are not on your side. They're not your colleagues. And what happened to 15 dollar minimum wage? And I remember talking to one of those Congress people, I won't leave out the name when saying, hey, you know, they're not going to do 15 dollar minimum wage. And he's like, oh, Jank, you're out of the loop. Nancy Pelosi assured us that they are going to do 15 dollar minimum wage. I'm like, I love you, but you're totally wrong. Money interests are not going to do 15 dollar minimum wage.

1:36:57You have to start fighting now, right? And they didn't get it. So they lost on almost all those issues because it's all about incentives and distance incentives and rules. If you don't fix the rules, you're going to constantly run into the same brick wall. Now, the second issue that we were talking about is in the culture wars, the rest of us are stuck between the two extreme two percenters, right? On both sides. So the two percent are on the left goes, you know, if you're a white woman, you need to shut up and listen now, okay? That's ridiculous. No, you don't. If you're a white woman, if every right to speak out, you have every right that every other human being has.

1:37:37And so would I love for all of us to listen, to want to need you to want another to have empathy for one another and go, hey, I wonder how a right winger thinks about this. I wonder how a left winger thinks about this. I wonder why they think that way, right? I love that. And I want that. So I want you to listen, but I don't want you to shut up. So that two percent gets extreme and I don't like it. But on the right wing, you got your two percent who think that that's all that's happening on the left. And that's all that's happening in American politics. And they think the entire left believes that tiny two percent, right?

1:38:11And so they hate the left. And they're like, oh, I'm not going to shut up. I'm not going to wear a mask. I'm not going to do any of these things. And I'm not going to do any tax of freedom. And then a Republican comes along and goes, oh, yeah, that thing you call freedom. That's deregulation for corporations because you shouldn't really have freedom. Companies should have freedom, right? And then he goes, yeah, freedom. For oxon mobile. No brother, they tricked you. Yeah, the two percent on each side is the useful distraction for yes, for the corruption or the politicians via money. Still we're talking about the 96 % that remains in the middle and the impact the DEI policy says on them.

1:38:50Yeah, so here's where it gets absurd. I'll give you a good example of absurdity. So in a school, I believe in California, they noticed that Latino students were not doing as well in AP and honors classes. So they canceled AP and honors classes. Oh, come on. What are you doing? That's nuts. No, your job is to help them get better grades, get better opportunity, et cetera. That's the harder thing to do and the right thing to do. That your job isn't, I'm going to make everything equal by taking away the opportunity for higher achievement for other students. If that's what you're doing and you think you're on the left, you're not really on the left.

1:39:32I actually think that's like an authoritarian position that a no progressive and their right mind would be in favor of. So, but it's all definitional. So here's another example of definitional communists. They say, oh my god, Kamala Harris is a communist. When you're telling on yourself, brothers and sisters, when you say that, that means A, I don't know what communism means and B, I don't have any idea what's going on in American politics. Kamala Harris is a corporatist. That's her problem. Not that she's a communist. She's on the other end of the spectrum. The idea that Kamala Harris would come into office and say, that's it.

1:40:13There's no more private property. We're going to take all of your homes in the town government property, they're all your cars, et cetera. She was not going to get within a billion miles of that. Her donors would never allow her to get within a billion miles of that. That is so preposterous that when you say something like that, it's disqualifying. I can't debate someone who thinks the Democrats are communists when they're actually largely corporates. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, so let's go there. When people call her communists, they're usually referring to certain kinds of policies. Do you think, I think it's a ridiculously label to assign to Kamala Harris, especially given the history of communism in the 20th century and what those economic and political policies have led to the scale of suffering that led to and it just degrades the meaning of the word.

1:41:03To take that seriously, why is she not a communist? You said she's not a communist because she's a corporatist. That can't be... Everybody in politics is a corporate. Almost everybody in politics is a corporate. But that doesn't mean the corporations have completely bought their mind. They have an influence in their mind and issues that matter to those corporations. Outside of that, they're still thinking for the voters because they have to win the votes. Barely. Let me give you an example. You see what I'm saying. If you just wanted votes, you would do a lot of what Tim was did. By the way, a lot of what Bernie did, that's why Bernie who had no media coverage went from 2 % in 2015 to by the end, about 48 % because he was just doing things that were popular.

1:42:01American people wanted, etc. Because he's not controlled by corporations. By the way, neither is Tom Massey on the right wing side on the Republican side. That's why I always say almost all. If you're doing things that are popular, people love it. Today, what would Kamala Harris do if she actually just wanted to win? So number one, she was trying to pass paid family leave right now. Why? It pulls at 84 % and even 74 % of Republicans wanted. Why? Because it says, hey, when you have a baby, you should get 12 weeks off, bond with your baby. Right now, in a lot of states that don't have paid family leave, you have to go back to work the very next day or you have to use all of your sick days, all your vacation days, just have two, one or two weeks with your baby.

1:42:50Right? So conservatives love paid family leave, liberals love paid family leave. That's why it pulls so high. So why isn't she proposing it? It's not in our economic plan. Tim Walls already passed it in Minnesota. He showed how easy it was. If you want votes, it's, and then you know what's going to happen if you propose paid family leave. The Republicans are going to go, no, our beloved corporations don't want to spend another dollar on moms, right? And they fall for that trap and then you're infinitely better shaped. So why doesn't she do it? She doesn't do it because her corporate donors don't want her to do it.

1:43:2315 dollar minimum wage layup over two thirds of the country wants it because it not only gives you higher wages for minimum wage folks, but it pushes wages up for others. And what do the elites say? Oh, that's going to drive up inflation. No, you shouldn't get paid anymore. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. So you're saying all other prices should go up. But the only thing I shouldn't go up is our wages. No, our wages should go up. Okay. So these are all easy ones. Here's another one. Anti corruption. Why is this she running on getting money out of politics? It pulls it over 90%. Why isn't Trump running on it anymore?

1:43:58He won when he ran on it in 2016. He didn't mean a word of it, but he ran on it. It was smart. They don't do it because their corporate donors take their heads off if they do it. So in contradiction to that, why did she propose to raise the corporate tax rate from whatever 21 % to 28 % because that's easy because that is something that's super popular and she's not going to do it. That's why. So guys, this is where I break the hearts of blue mega. Blue mega thinks, oh my god, these Democrats, they're angels and the right wing is and the Republicans are evil and and they work for big business, but not Kamala Harris, not Joe Biden, right?

1:44:40Okay. Well, Donald Trump took the corporate tax rate from 35 % to 21%. So that's trillions of dollars that got transferred because guys, you got to understand if the corporations don't pay it, we have to pay it because we're running up these giant deficits and eventually either they're going to not eventually keep raising our taxes in different ways that you're not noticing. They keep increasing fees and fines and different ways for the government to collect money. So we're paying for it. And on top of that, eventually, they're going to cut your social security and Medicare because they're going to say, oh, we don't have any options left anymore.

1:45:14Yeah, you don't have any options left anymore because you kept giving trillions of dollars in tax cuts to corporations. So we're going to have to pay for that. So then Trump then Biden says, oh my god, I'm going to bring corporate taxes back up to 28%. I might already did a slide of hand and said 28. Okay, then he gets into office and Manchin says, no, 25. That's the highest you all go. And he goes, okay, fine, 25. And then while you're not looking, they just dump it. They don't even do 25. It's still a 21. So I hear me now quote me later, I do predictions on the show all the time because you should hold me accountable.

1:45:51You should hold all your pundits accountable. If you held all your pundits accountable, we'd be the last man standing and that's kind of what happened. Okay. So I guarantee you she will not increase corporate taxes. So would the same be the case for price controls or the anti price gauging that she's so it's not price controls is price. I will price scheduling it is price controls, but I mean minimum wages price controls also. Now we're going to get into a lot of minutia, but I'll try to keep it broad. So price controls are a disaster. They never work. If you say, oh, here's a banana. It has to stay at a dollar a pound make up a number, right?

1:46:28Well, supply and demand is going to move. And then that's going to and so the minute it moves to two dollars and where the price should be, then you're going to run into shortages. So we all know this. It's a bad idea, right? But are there laws against price gauging? They already are and they're a good idea. So why like you have a natural disaster, all of a sudden, the water that was a dollar, now they're charging $100. The government has to come in, democratic capitalism, they come in and go, no, I'm going to protect the people. So you're not allowed to price gouge, you know, maybe charge two dollars, etc.

1:47:00But you're not going to charge a hundred, but it is temporary. We get we get that done. We ended the problem there. And then we bring it back to a normal supply and demand, okay? So that's what she's proposing. It's so that's all political because the price gouging has already passed. They did it in 21 and 22. And so now the grossy stores are actually low margin business. She says grossy stores. That's how I know she doesn't mean it because the grossy stores weren't the problem. Cosumer goods were the problem. Yeah. Those companies, she's following the polls where most people will say that the grossy is a two expensive.

1:47:34So she's just basically a drug. But saying the most popular thing, yeah. 100 % and you could tell in which proposals she means it and which proposals she doesn't, because of the of the framing, right? So this is a mediocre example. But in housing, she said, we have to stop private equity from buying a house and bulk. I'm like, I'm curious that they put the word in bulk there. Why does it have to be in bulk? Why don't we just stop them from buying any residential home? Like you could set up normal boundaries, right? For example, Charlie Kirk was on the young Turks this week. By the way, sorry, take that tangent.

1:48:14I really enjoy that conversation. I really enjoy that you talked to that was like civil. You guys disagreed pretty intensely, but like those a lot of respect. I really enjoyed that. Thank you, Robert. That was like, that was beautiful. You and Charlie Kirk and the thing animals there. Yeah, that's right. So yeah, quick tangent. Look, I've done a lot of yelling online. Okay. And I yell when a there's an issue that you should be passionate about 40 ,000 people, 25 ,000 women and children slaughtered in Gaza. If you're not emotionally upset by that and you think it's no big deal, I think that's a problem.

1:48:54But when you add gas lighting on top, that's what drives me crazy. And then when you add filibustering on top, then that sets me off. So for all my life, right wing has gone on cable and filibuster. They take up so much more time in the left wing guest and the left wing guest always like, okay, well, he I'm offended. He's taking up too much time. No, brother, go over the top. Go over the top. You're not going to talk over me. I'm going to talk over you. Okay. So and then when you gaslight and you go, oh no, 1200 people in Israel being killed is awful, which it is. But 40 ,000 people being killed in Gaza is no big deal.

1:49:31We should keep giving them money. Keep killing, keep killing. And that that's normal. No, it's not normal. I'm not going to let you say it's normal. That's nuts. Okay. When you like, we were against the Iraq war. There was only two shows that were on the air nationally or against the Iraq war us and democracy now with Amy Goodman. And and at the time, I you see all the time because mainstream media would gaslight the fuck out of us. We're going to be greeted as liberators me and Ben manquist on the air. Ben doesn't yell as much. He's now the host turned classic movies, but we're he's saying it in a common way.

1:50:06I'm saying it in a screaming way. We're not going to be greeted as liberators when you drop a bomb on someone's head. They don't greet you as a liberator. Stop saying insane things. And seven out of 10 Americans thought this sit on who's saying it personally attacked us on 9 11. We got lied into that war by corporate media. Okay. Now there's one there's a couple of good things that Trump has done. One is get people to realize corporate media as the matrix, right? And so now and get them to an anti war position. He himself doesn't have an anti war position, but his voters do and that's a positive.

1:50:40We can come back to them. But these days the reason why the Charlie Kirk conversations are going great and Rudy Giuliani and Mike Lindell and historically though we've been go back again 10 years 20 years. We've always been respectful when someone comes on our show and we have a debate as long as they're not yelling I matched a tenor of the host, right? You and I are having a reasonable conversation. I'm not raising my voice. I'm not yelling at you for no reason, right? So now when Charlie's not going to battle anymore for like talking points, I'm shutting off my mind. All I'm doing is yelling at you.

1:51:18Then I'm going to yell back at him. But now he's saying, okay, let's have a reasonable conversation. Great. I love it. I love reasonable conversation. It's great. It was refreshing. And what were we talking about? You buying up, buying up housing? Yes. So Charlie when he was on said, hey, listen, you know, I think that there should be a cap though. I forget if he said 10 billion or 100 billion in assets. If you have less than that, you should still be able to do a real estate as an investment, even if it's residential, but above that, he gets to, okay, that's good. No problem. Well, we can have a debate about that when you figure out is the right number 10, 125, no problem.

1:51:54You could put in reasonable limitations. But we got to get them to stop buying the homes. So when Kamala Harris says, oh, we'll stop them from buying homes in bulk. I'm like, okay, there's a loophole. And so they're going to use that loophole. And besides which it's not going to pass, Wall Street owns the government. So there's no way corporate Republicans and Democrats, which are about 98 % of politicians are going to limit private equity. And so when do we ever get a little bit of change when Democrats are in charge, they do five to 15 % of their agenda. And that's not because they're warmhearted.

1:52:31It's a release valve, right? Oh, see under Obama, we got about 5 % change. And what was that? That was Obamacare, right? That was most of the change that we got. And what's the greatest part of Obamacare? And now a lot of right wing also agree, almost all of right wing, agree about this portion, which is they got rid of the bias against pre -existing conditions. Why did they do that particularly? Because the country was about to get in a fucking rage. We all have pre -existing conditions. If you deny me when I'm sick, what the fuck's the point of insurance, right? And the anger had gotten to a nuclear level.

1:53:11So that release valve, get rid of pre -existing conditions. Let's go back to just milking them regularly. And oh, by the way, put in a mandate so that they have to buy it from us, right? Do you know who originally came up with Obamacare? The Heritage Foundation. It was their proposal. Romney did it in Massachusetts. It was called Romneycare. So I think this is a super important election, but I've earned the credibility to be able to say that because in 2012, I said, this is a largely unimportant election. Mitt Romney and Barack Obama's policies on economic issues are near identical. Obamacare was literally Romneycare.

1:53:51Right now, the leftists, oh, the Heritage Foundation. It's so dangerous project 2025. Well, brother, they're the ones who wrote Obamacare. And you say that's the greatest change in the world, right? So that's why the Democrats, yeah, I'll take the 10 % change overall. I think Biden did about 15 % Obama did 5%. But they're going to they'll also march you backwards by deregulating like Clinton did and Obama did the bank bailouts like Obama did. But 10 % is better than 0%, but it's not to help you. It's the release valve. So the system keeps going. Is it possible to steal man the case that that not all politicians are corporate just or maybe how would you approach that?

1:54:37For example, this podcast is a bunch of sponsors that I give zero fucks about what they think about what I'm saying. Like have zero control over me. Maybe you could say that's not because it's not a lot of money or maybe is maybe I'm a unique person or something like this. But I just think it's possible to have and I would like to believe a lot of politicians that this way that they have ideas and while they take money, they kind of see it as a game that you accept the money, go to certain parties, hug people and so on. But it doesn't actually fundamentally compromise your integrity on issues you actually care about.

1:55:22I can steal man almost anything. I can steal man Trump. I can steal man conservatives easily. Corporate politicians are a hard one. So first, they're it's not all politicians. We can start out nice and easy. Tom Massey, now Holly and Gates not taking corporate pack money, Bernie, the squad, they don't take corporate bank money. You could disagree on either end of those folks on social issues. But generally, they are a thousand times less corrupt. They're more honest. And part of the reason you might hate the squad is because they're so honest. They tell you they're real opinion on social issues that you really disagree with.

1:56:02A lot of the corporate politicians won't do that because they're trying to get as many votes as possible so they can fillate their donors when they get into office and do all their favors for them. Okay, but you see I'm already falling apart on the steel man of corporate politicians. That's the zoom in on that. So if you take corporate pack money, you're that's it. You're corrupted. I can can you imagine yourself say you're a politician, you're a president, you're a human being, you're a person with integrity, you're a person who thinks about the world. You're saying if I was a corporate pack and I give you a billion dollars, you still you you'd be I could tell you anything.

1:56:39So like everything is a spectrum, humanity is a spectrum. So can you find outliers who could take corporate pack money and still be principled enough to resist its lure. Yeah, and and I would hope that I would be a person like that, but I wouldn't take corporate pack money. But if you force me to, I think I would still stay principled and do it. Could you find 10, 20 other people in the country? Yeah. But on average, that is not what will happen. What will happen is they will take the money and do exactly as they are told. I think most people have integrity. Okay. Okay. So what I'm more worried about is when you take corporate pack money, it's not that you are immediately sold is over time.

1:57:27Over time. That's true. So yeah, I get it. But I wonder if if the integrity that I think most people have can withstand the gradual slippery slope of the effect of corporate money, which if if what I'm saying is true that most people have integrity, one of the ways to solve the effect of corporate money is term limits. Because it takes time to corrupt people. You can't buy them immediately. And then the term limits can you for the listener. Jenkins shaking his head. Yeah. So look, you're right that over time, it gets way worse. And as we talked about earlier, Biden's a great example that comes in anti corruption.

1:58:10Wines up being totally pro corruption by the end. And but he was also here for almost all of it as we started in a world that was not run by money in politics. And it's now completely run by money in politics. So does it get worse over time? Cinema is a Kristen cinema. Arizona is a great example that comes in as a progressive. Doesn't want to take pack money cares about the average person, etc. Over time, she becomes the biggest corporatist in the Senate and a total disaster. But if you say that the majority of politicians have been, I don't know if this is what you're saying. Majority of politicians have integrity?

1:58:51Um, no, let's start at the majority of human beings. And I think that politicians are not there are not a special group of like sociopaths. I dare they are. They lean a little bit towards that direction, but they're not like only sociopaths going to politics. It's like you have to have some sociopathic qualities, I think, but they're not completely sociopath. I think they do have integrity because sometimes for very selfish reasons, it's not all about money, even for a selfish person for a narcissist. It's also about being recognized for having had positive impact on the world. Yeah, I get it.

1:59:32But all right, so let's break it down. So first, human beings then we'll get the politicians. Do human beings have integrity? Well, it's a spectrum. So some people have enormous integrity. Some people have no integrity. So there is not one type or character, right? So some people have a ton of empathy for other human beings and they literally feel it. Like I feel the pain of someone else. And I'm not alone. Most people feel the pain of someone else. If you see a on video, a baby being hurt, a overwhelming majority of human beings will go, no, right? You have empathy. That's a natural feeling that you have.

2:00:12Some people have no empathy because they're on the extreme end of the spectrum. Syraculers and Donald Trump. Okay. And so I'm partly joking, but not really. He has never demonstrated any empathy that I have ever seen for any other human being. I'm going to trigger some right wingers because they think every terrible thing he said is out of context or joking or not real or fake news. But his chief of staff didn't make it up. He called people who went into the military suckers and losers. Why? Why did he say that? If just hang with me for a second, don't have your head explode. Okay. I'm not saying the likes.

2:00:49I'm saying the right wingers out there, right? So the reason is because if you're like Trump and you don't, you literally don't feel the empathy, you think, why not help would I go in the military? Get killed for someone else. What a sucker. No, I'm going to stay out of the military. I'm going to stay alive. I'm going to make a ton of money and I'm going to look out for myself. And he assumes because everybody does this. You assume that everyone thinks like you do, but they don't. So Trump assumes everybody's as much of a dirtbag as he is. And because he doesn't feel it, he doesn't feel the empathy.

2:01:24And so he's like, yeah, you'd be an idiot. A sucker and a loser to go into the military and have sacrifice for other people. So you see this spectrum. Even if you think Trump's not on that end and you think I'm wrong about that, you get that there are people on that end, right? So you have a spectrum of integrity, empathy, et cetera. That's what I would call your hardware. You layer on top of that your software. Okay. And the software is cultural influences. Your parents, media, your friends, all these are cultural influences. So now when you're in certain industries, they value more integrity.

2:02:01So religious leaders, if you're doing it right, which is also very rare, right? But if you're doing it right, you're supposed to have empathy for the poor, the needy, the whole flock, right? So that profession is incentivizing you towards empathy and integrity. Okay. And even then a giant amount of people abuse it, right? But okay, good. In politics, it creates incentives for the opposite, no integrity. And that software, to your point over time, gets stronger and stronger and stronger until it takes over. Now you might have someone with a lot of integrity like Tom Massey, right? A Republican from Kentucky.

2:02:44And whether I agree with him or disagree with him on policy, I get that the brother is actually doing it based on principles. And there is an any amount of money you can give Tom Massey for him to change his principles. Why? He's on the principled end of the spectrum as a human being, right? So it was Bernie. They're on the same part of that, that spectrum, right? But for most people, the great majority of the spectrum, if you overload them with software that incentivizes them to not have integrity, they will succumb. And now let's switch to politicians in particular. Why do I think that they're on average far more likely to be on the sociopathic part of the spectrum?

2:03:24Because of the incentives and distance incentives. So this changes every congressional cycle. And when just Democrats were winning a lot, it got all the way down to 87 .5%. But on average, for congressional elections, the person with more money wins 95 % of the time. It doesn't matter if they're liberal conservative, Republican or Democrat or any ideology they have 95 % okay. So now let's say you got to 5 % that went in that are not hooked on the money. Well, they're going to get a primary challenge. Then they're going to get a general election challenge and 95 % of the time the one with more money wins.

2:04:02So eventually this system cycles through until only the core almost only the corruptor left. Wait a second. Is that real 95 % so if you have more money, 95 % of the time you win, huh? I'd like to believe that's less the case for example for higher you get. Yes, that's true, you're right. So you know why? So the presidential race is ironically in some ways the least corrupt. So let's dive into why if you're running a local race anywhere in the country, you're going to get almost no press coverage, meaning a congressional race, right? If you're running a Senate race in the middle of Montana, you're going to get almost no media coverage.

2:04:49So that's where your money and politics has the most effect because then you could just buy the airwaves. You outspend the other guy you get all the ads plus you get the friendly media coverage because you just bought a couple of million dollars of ads in the middle of Montana. So the local news loves you, the TV stations, radio stations, the papers. So some of the papers are principled. They might say, oh no, but overall they're not calling you a radical. They're not calling you anything and you're buying those races. But when you get to the presidential race, that's much harder because presidential race, you have earned media, free media that overwhelms paid media.

2:05:25Perfect example is 2016. Hillary Clinton outraces Trump by about two to one, but she loses anyway. Why? Because Trump got almost twice as much earned media as she did. And the earned media is better. It's inside the content, right? It is definitely better. So in a presidential election, as long as you got past the primary, you could actually win with not that much money. And that's part of the reason why I have hope, Lex, because all you got to do is get past the Republican or Democratic primary. And that's very, very, very difficult, but Trump did it, right? Now he took it in the wrong direction, but he did get leave a blueprint for how to do it.

2:06:08And so once you get to the general election, you're off to the race, you could do any goddamn thing you like. Okay, you could be super popular. You don't have to give a shit about the donors. You can get into office. You could bully your own party and the other party into doing what you want and you can get everything done. You could even get money out of politics. So don't lose hope. I mean, we even started Operation Hope at TYT. And our first project was to knock Biden out. And everybody said, you guys are nuts. That's totally impossible. And we knocked Biden out. All right. Did we do it alone?

2:06:37Of course, that we were a small part of it, right? But we laid the groundwork for hope. And we laid the groundwork for when he flopped into debate. People had already been told, remember, he's bad. He's old. He's not right. And the debate proved it. If we hadn't done that groundwork and not just the young terms, obviously, but Axel Rod and Carville and Nate Silver and Ezra Klein, et cetera, Charlemagne the God John Stewart, all these people helped a lot so that when the debate happened, it confirmed the idea that out there that he was too old and couldn't do it. So my point is hope is, if you lose hope you're done for, then they're definitely going to win, right?

2:07:19Hope is the most dangerous thing in the world for the elites. So whether you're right, wing or left wing, I need you to have hope and I need you to understand it's not misplaced. We just got to get past the primary and when it turned this whole thing around. So you basically a presidential candidate who's a populist who in part runs on getting money out of politics. Okay, well, let's talk about Donald Trump. So to me, the two biggest criticisms of Trump is the the fake electroskeem out of that whole 2020 election, the fake electroskeem is the thing that really bothers me. And then the second thing across a larger time scale is the the counterproductive division that he's created in, let's say, our public discourse.

2:08:10What are your top five criticisms of Trump? Okay, so number one, I have the same exact thing as you. The fake electroskeem is unacceptable, totally disqualifying. So the fake electroskeem was a literal coup attempt. So he doesn't win them like, for folks who don't know, I need to explain why it's a coup attempt, because he just threw out words and then people get triggered by the words and then they go into their separate corners, right? So the January six writers, they were not going to keep the building. That was not a coup attempt. It's not like, oh, the Magga guys have the building. I guess they win, right?

2:08:49No, that was never going to happen. So what was the point of the January six right? It was the delay, the proceedings. Why did it matter that they were going to delay the proceedings? Because if you can't certify the election, they want a general confusion and chaos so that the Republicans in Congress could say, well, we don't know who wants. So we're going to have to kick it back to the states. In the states, they had the fake electros ready. And remember, the fake electros are not Trump's electors. There's both candidates have a slate of electors, Biden's electros and Trump's electros. They go to the Trump electros first in this plan and the have the Trump electors go, no, I'm not going to pretend Trump won the election when he didn't win the election.

2:09:29So they're like, shit, now we got to come up with fake electros. Okay. So they enlist these Republicans to go, yeah, I pretend Trump won, right? And so they sign a piece of paper. That's fraud and that's why a lot of them are now being prosecuted in the different states. And so the idea is the Republican legislature legislators then go, we're sending these new electros in. And we think Trump won Arizona in Georgia and Wisconsin, right? That was the idea. That was the plan. And then you come back to the house at that point when there are two different sets of electors, the rule constitutional rule is the house decides, but the house decides not on a majority because the Democrats had the majority at the time.

2:10:15They decide on a majority of the states they vote by state and the Republicans had the majority of the states. So in that way, you steal the election even though Trump didn't win, you install them back in as president. That is a frontal assault on democracy. And I loathe it. And then Trump on top just blabbers out. Well, sometimes you have if there's massive fraud and an election, in other words, I think I won. I don't even think that I'm just saying that I won, right? He says you can terminate any rule regulation or article even in the Constitution. No, brother, you cannot terminate the Constitution because you'd like to do a fake elector scheme and do a coup against America.

2:10:57Fuck you. Okay, so I'm never going to allow this want to be tyrant to go back into the White House and endanger our system. And so you want to endanger the corrupt system? I'm the guy. Okay, let's go get that corrupt system and tear it down. If you don't endanger the real system, democracy, capitalism, the Constitution, then I'm your biggest enemy. So I'm never going to take that risk. And you see it every time he goes to talk to a dictator. Look, guys, I'm asking you to be principled, right? I asked the left of that and we drive away some of our audience when we do that. So we got the balls to do that to our to our own side.

2:11:35So for the right wing, be honest, if it was Joe Biden or Barack Obama or Kamala Harris that went and wrote quote, unquote, love letters to a communist dictator who runs concentration camps. You would say, communist, we know it. Look at that. And Trump literally says about Kim Jong Un. We wrote love letters to one another. I fell in love. If a Democrat said that they'd be politically decapitated, right? Their career would be instantly over, right? But Trump, whatever is Xi Jinping, a lot of mere Putin, I'm not going to get in the Russia, Russia, but it's just that he's a strong man, right? Kim Jong Un or any Victor Orban, Duterte in the Philippines, anytime it's a strong man that says, screw our Constitution, screw our rules.

2:12:28I want total loyalty to one person. Trump loves he loves him. He said once he's like, Oh, it's great. You go to North Korea or China. And when the leader walks in, everybody up lots and everybody listens to what he says. That's how it should be here. No, brother, that's not how it should be here. You hate democracy. You want to be the sole guy in charge as a populist. You should loath down Trump. I agree on the fake electric scheme. Can you steal, man, and maybe educate me on the book rigged that I started reading? Is there any degree to which the election was rigged or elections in general are rigged?

2:13:10So I think the book rigged, the main case they make is not that there's some shady fake ballots. It's more the impact of mainstream media and the impact of a big tech. So rigged is another one of those words that triggers people and is ill -defined. So let's begin to define it. So the worst case of rigged is we actually changed the votes. So a lot of Trump people think that that's what happened. Nonsense. That didn't happen at all. And by the way, on the left, thought the votes were changed in the 2016 primary and it was literally rigged against Bernie. No, that did not happen. Okay. That is a massive crime and is very risky and is relatively easy to get caught.

2:14:00People who are in power are not interested in getting caught. They're not interested in going to jail, etc. It is a very extreme thing. Could it happen? Yes, it could happen. Have I seen any evidence of it happening in my lifetime? Not really. Given how much people hate this, you probably just need to find evidence of one time. One vote being changed where you can trace them saying something in some room somewhere that would just explode. Yeah, evidence just doesn't seem to be there. And by the way, for the right wing who say verify the vote, goddamn right verify the vote, right? So you want to have different proposals like paper ballots, recounts, and recounts, which by the you had not the paper ballots, but the three recounts and a hand recount in Georgia and so many of these swing states, he lost, he lost, he lost.

2:14:49There was no significant voter fraud. Now, second thing in terms of rigging is voter fraud. So how and the right wing believes, oh my god, it's voter fraud everywhere, not remotely true. Heritage Foundation does a study. They want to prove it so badly. And it turns out no matter how much they move the numbers, the final number they got was it happens 0 .000006 % of the time. Okay, it almost never happens. They found like 31 instances over a decade or two decades. So it's what counts as voter fraud. So a lot of times these days, it'll be Republicans who do it because it'll be and it's not nefarious.

2:15:32It's a knucklehead who goes and he's, oh, I heard they're having non -documented, they're legal's vote. So I voted for me and my mom, even though she's dead. Well, that's fair. They're doing it. No, brother, that's not fair. And that's not how it works. You're under arrest. So what about non citizens voting? So this preposterous, of course, non citizens shouldn't vote and they don't vote. But there's not, you don't have to prove citizenship when you're voting, right? No, you do. I mean, it's so it depends on what you mean by prove and when you vote, right? So you're not a lot of voters on documented immigrant.

2:16:08So that happens up front when you go to like again, it's a holomirrorist like there's so many different ways to create moratias. So the Republicans will say, well, when you go to the voting booth, they don't make you show a passport. Yeah, that's true. But you showed it earlier when you registered, right? And so and we can get into voter ID laws. There's all sorts of things. But we got to, who will speed up the spectrum, right? So these things almost never happen. Voter fraud happens but super rarely and not enough to swing elections. And by the way, sometimes if there is an issue, they'll redo an election.

2:16:41There is actually a process for that. And it happened in North Carolina because Republicans did voter fraud in this one district. Okay. And it wasn't the candidate himself. It was this campaign person and they did ballot harvesting. And then but ballot harvesting again, it depends on what you mean if you're just collecting ballots, that's okay. He changed the ballots. That's not okay. And so they had to redo that election. So now the real place where it gets rigged is before elections. And there's two main ways that things get rigged. One is almost exclusively, no, that's not fair. I was going to say Republicans, but Democrats do it too in a different way.

2:17:19So Republicans will come in like Brian campus, the king of this in Georgia. So he was against Trump doing it expos facto. He's like, no, you idiot. We don't cheat after the election. We cheat before the election. Okay. So they'll go, well, I mean, you got to clear out the voter rolls everyone. So on that's true because people die, people move, and you got to clean out the voter rolls. So then they come in and they go, we will clean them out mainly in black areas. Okay. Oh, look at that. There goes a couple of million black voters. Well, some of those, I suppose, are real voters, but they'll have to re register.

2:17:50And then they'll find that out on election day. And oh, well, now sorry, you couldn't vote this time. Remember to re register next time. And so do they go, hey, we're going to take black people off the voter rolls? No, what they do is we're having more issues in these districts, right? Here's another way they do it. How many voting boosts do you have in the area? So primarily Republican areas will get tons of voting boosts. So you don't have to wait in line. You go in, you vote, you go to work, no problem. You're in a black area run in a Republican state. All of a sudden, hey, look, that city, while we sent you four voting boosts, oh, you got a million people there.

2:18:31Well, what are you going to do? I guess you got to wait in line the whole day. You can't go to work, et cetera. So that's the way I refuse to believe it's only the Republicans that do that. I would say. So that's why I paused. Yeah. That just seems too obvious to do by both. Yeah. No, no, no, Democrats are so weak. Like they mainly don't do that, but they do do the third thing, which is Jeremy. So both Republicans and Democrats also have favorite flavors of Vogue. Yeah. Of messing with the vote. Okay. Yeah. So Jeremy andering is the best way to rig an election. That way the politicians picked their voters instead of the voters picking their politicians, right?

2:19:12So all these districts are so heavily Jeremy that they can come and almost can't lose. They'll push most of the voters into one district, most of the voters in another district, because they don't want competition, right? So they're then you're screwed. The vote isn't rigged, but the district is rigged so that the incumbent wins no matter almost no matter what, right? So that's why we've gotten so polarized because the Jeremy Mandarin creates like 90 % of seats that are safe. So they don't have to compromise. They don't have to get to a middle. They could just be extreme on either side because they already locked it up.

2:19:55Okay. So that's the number one way to rig an election. Now finally, the last part of is maybe the most important, maybe even more important than Jeremy and that's the media. So it just happened to RFK Jr. It happened to Bernie in 2015. It happens to any outside right or left. The media, if you're an outsider, will say, well, radical, number one, they don't platform you, right? So they're not going to have you on to begin with. Nobody's even going to find out about you. If nobody finds out about you, you're done for, right? So Bernie broke through that because he was so popular and the rallies were so huge that they could local news couldn't help but cover him.

2:20:36Jesus Christ, what are all these people doing in the middle of the city, right? And he slowly broke through that. But do you know that in 2015, as he's doing this miraculous run against Hillary Clinton, nobody thinks he has a chance. And here comes Bernie and he's almost at 48%. This is he had seven seconds of coverage on ABC that year. They just will not put you on. That is the number one way they rig an election. Bobby Kennedy Jr. sitting at 20 % in a primary, no town hall, 20 % giant number, right? And you're not going to do a town hall. You're not going to do a debate. 12 % in the general election, a giant number in a general election, no town hall, no debate.

2:21:17If no one finds out about you, they don't know to vote for you, right? If they don't find out your policies, corporate media rigs, elections more than anything else in the world. Now this is something you've been a bit controversial about. But the general sort of standard belief is that there's a left leaning bias in the mainstream media because as I think studies show a large majority of journalists are left leaning. And then that there's a bias in big tech employees of big tech companies from search engines, the social media are left leaning. And there that's a huge majority is left leaning.

2:21:56So the conventional wisdom is that there is a bias towards the left. Yeah. So do you think first of all, I think you've argued that that's not true, that there's a bias in the other direction. But whether there's a bias or not, do you think that how big of an impact that has on the result of the election? Okay, so let's break that down. Tech and media are totally different. So let's do media for us and we'll do tech. So on mainstream media, corporate media, and I actually think that right wing media like Fox News is part of corporate media. They just play good cop ad cop. And so in that realm, the bias is not right or left except on social issues.

2:22:40Okay, so that's where that image comes from. On social issues, yes, the media is generally on the left. And right wing, sorry, but like this started in the 1960s and the right wing got super mad at mainstream media saying that black people were equal to white people. That's not the case anymore. Okay, right wing calm down. I'm not calling you all racist. But in the 1960s, were there racism? Was there racism? Oh, course. Of course, they wouldn't even let black kids into the schools. Right. There was massive segregation in the South, but a lot in the North as well. And at that point, a mainstream media says, well, I mean, they are citizens.

2:23:14They should have equal rights. And the right wing goes, bias. Okay, yeah, I mean, you're kind of right. It is a bias. It is a bias towards equality in that case. But it that is perceived as on the left now. Fast forward to today, you don't have that on the racial issues as obviously as much as you had it back then, but on game marriage that existed for a long time where the media is like, well, they kind of should have the same rights as straight people, right? And the right wing went, bias, right? So, okay, you're kind of right about that, but at the same time, I would argue their position is correct.

2:23:52Right. So, but can they go too far? Of course, I can go too far. Okay. Now, but that's not the main deal, guys. That's to distract you. The main deal is economic issues. And again, we say it ahead of time, and you can see if we're right or wrong, right? So we will tell folks, when we get to an economic bill, you will see all the sudden the guys who theoretically disagree, Fox News and MSNBC closed ranks. And you just saw it happen with price couch, that issue of price couching. All of a sudden, there's a lot of MSNBC hosts, CNN hosts, Washington Post writes an op -ed against it, and everybody panics and is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can't control anything.

2:24:29A corporation does. This is wrong. This is wrong. Right. Oh, what happened? I thought you guys were hated each other. All of a sudden, you totally agree, fascinating. Okay. Same thing happened on increasing wages when they were talking about increasing the minimum wage, Stephanie rule, giant screen against it on MSNBC. All of a sudden, Fox News and MSNBC agree, right? Do not touch beloved corporations. So now that gets us to our real bias. It's not left to right. It's pro corporate for all the reasons we talked about before, corporate media, corporate politicians. So if you don't believe me today, whether you're on the right or the left, watch next time an economic issue where they fall, how do they react?

2:25:11When any time it's a corporate issue, where does the media go? Right? So that's the real bias of the media. And so since the real bias of the media is pro corporations, that is not a left -wing position. That is considered more of a right -wing position. I even think that's a misnomer because to be fair to right -wing voters, they're not pro corporations. They're not pro big business. They're not pro corruption. But the Republican politicians are. So it gets framed as a right -wing issue. So if you think that the corporate media is too populist, you just don't get it. They aren't. They aren't.

2:25:45They hate populists. So now when you turn to tech, so tech's a complicated one because yeah, people write the code. If they're left -wingers, they're going to have certain assumptions and they might write that into the codes of the rules. But they're also generally speaking wealthy. They're usually white. They're usually male. And those biases also get going. And there's a lot of people on the left who object to that bias. But that's a fair and interesting conversation. And when we have to be careful of, and when we can find them, hopefully find a middle ground. But that's not the major problem.

2:26:24The major reason why big tech gets attacked is because they are competitors of who? Social media competes with mainstream media. So mainstream media has been attacking big tech from day one, pretending that it's a they're really concerned. Yeah, they're really concerned because that's their competition and they're getting their ass handed to them. So I did a story on the young Turks about CNN article about all the dangers of social media. I'm like, guys, this is written by their advertising department. Okay. And they're advertised and they in fact, they go to the advertisers and they find a random video on YouTuber Facebook right out of billions of videos.

2:27:09And they're like, look at your ad is on this video. Do you denounce and reject every big tech company and every member of social media and the advertisers like, yeah, I do, right? Meanwhile, they're doing Milf Island on TV. Okay. I didn't know that. They're literally a show that came out recently where it's moms and their sons and they fuck each other. Oh wow. Okay, they don't they don't have sex with their mom. They have sex with a different mom or they date. But then the show's all then they go off into a corner, etc. Right? I'm like, you're doing this kind of like the worst degrading, ridiculous, immoral programming.

2:27:54And then you found a video on YouTube that as a problem. Get the fuck out of here. You're just trying to kneecap your competition. Let's talk about the the saga of Joe Biden. So over the past year or the past few months, can you just throw a wine? Where have you maybe tell the story of Joe Biden as you see from the election perspective? Yes. So about a year ago, I I'm looking at the polling and first of all, I have eyes, right? And ears. So whenever I see Biden, I'm like, this is a disaster. And then I go and talk to real people. And when I say real people, I mean, not in politics. That's not their job, right?

2:28:35Because people involved in politics from media have a certain perspective. And it's colored by all of the exchanges and mainstream media, social media, etc. Real people aren't on Twitter having political fights. They're not watching CNN religiously, etc. Whenever I was at a barbecue, you guys all Democrats and some barbecues. Yeah. What do you guys think of Joe Biden? Like almost in unison to old every real person said to old. So I look at what real people are saying. That's why I thought Trump was going to win in 2016. I go in the middle of Ohio. I can't see a Hillary Clinton sign for hundreds of miles, right?

2:29:15This Trump paraphernalia everywhere, right? So that's not end all be all you could say it's anecdotal, but you begin to collect data points, right? But then the real data points are in polling. Okay. So now I'm looking at Biden polling. He's in the 30s. No incumbent in the 30s has ever come back to win. So I'm like, it's already over. Then all of a sudden, oh my god, Trump takes the lead with Latinos. It's it's double over. By the later in the process, Trump took the lead with young voters. I'm like, this is the most over -election in history. And a Democrat cannot win if they're not winning young voters.

2:29:53That's impossible. Trump's cutting into his lead with black voters. This thing is over, right? And I go tell people and they're like, you're crazy. Why do they think I'm crazy? Because MSNBC is lying to them 24 -7, telling them that Joe Biden created sliced bread and the wheel and fire. And my favorite target point was he's a dynamo behind the scenes. I'm like, okay, let me get this right. It's like an SNL skit, right? I'm like, so behind the scenes is like, all right, Sally, get me the memo on that and we're okay. We're going to do this. And I'm in command of the material. Then he goes in front of the camera.

2:30:31And anyways, why would any politician do that? Why would they be terrible in front of the camera and great off camera? That doesn't make any sense. But once you get people enough propaganda and MSNBC created Blue Maga, right? They'll believe anything. So they believe that Biden was dynamic and young and that he was the best possible candidate to beat Donald Trump. When in reality, he was about the only Democrat who couldn't beat Donald Trump. So number one, I don't coast sign on a bullshit. I don't care which side you're on. Number two, as you heard earlier, I can't have Trump winning. It endangers the country.

2:31:12It endangers our constitution, et cetera. So I'm going to do something about it. And so I start something called the Operation Hope on the Unitex. And we asked the audience, what should we do? So there's different projects in Operation Hope. But the first project that pops up is not Biden now, the race. Okay. And so then I ask our paying members on TYT. I say, guys, you're going to vote. And then I'm going to do what you tell me to do. If you say, no, I like Biden, or I think Biden's the best candidate, or even if he isn't, we're not going to be able to win on this. So don't do it. Right? Should I enter the primary against Biden?

2:31:50Okay. 7624 go. Enter. All right. I'm a populist. You tell me to go. You're my paying members. You're my boss. I'm going to go. Okay. So I enter the primary. Now I'm not born in the country. So people are going to freak out about that. I'm a talk show host. Like the establishment media despises me. Right? So I'm not going to get any airtime. In fact, we consider hiring the top booking agent in New York. We talked to him and he says, well, you know, I'm actually in New York this week. And he says, I'm going to go talk to those guys. And I'll come back to you. And he was really decent. Because normally, you know, he charges a lot.

2:32:32Just take the money, right? And go, yeah, yeah, I'll get you on. But he was a wonderful guy. He said, I talked to them. You're banned. So don't, don't do it. Like you're not, you're banned at CNN. You're banned at MSNBC. And I think you're banned on Fox News, but I'm not sure. Okay. So so long odds. Why do you do it? Because if you think we're going to crash into the iceberg, you might as well bum rush the captain's course. Right? I'm lunging at the wheel. So what difference can I make? Well, I can make a difference by going on every show on planet earth and going, he's too old. He's in the 30s.

2:33:07He has no chance of winning, no chance of winning. I go on Charlemagne show breakfast club, right? Charlemagne agrees. All of a sudden we're having buzz. And then people go, oh, Charlemagne said he has no chance of winning. Then Charlemagne's on the daily show talks to John Stewart. John Stewart does a second. Not, this is not necessarily causal, but buzz is building, right? So then John Stewart does a segment if you remember, and people got super pissed at him. Two old camp win and all in that buzz is building. Meanwhile, unrelated to us, David Axelrod and James Carville. And I'm like, guys, figure it out.

2:33:39Who does Axelrod speak for? The top advisor for Barack Obama. Who is James Carville the top advisor for? The Clintons. This is the Clintons and the Obama sending their emissaries to say, we can read a poll. He's going to lose, change direction. So when the debate happens, we laid the groundwork. If we hadn't laid the groundwork, debate would have been the first time that Blue Maga would have thought, oh, maybe Biden can't win, right? But since all of us said it and strange bedfellows, I loathed Nancy Pelosi, but she was on our side. I got a lot of issues with Bill Mar. He was on our side, right?

2:34:19I got a lot of issues with Axelrod and Carville and they were on our side. So the people who believed in objective reality kind of independently made a plan. Let's show people objective reality. And we did and we drove them out and it made all the difference. So you think he stepped down voluntarily or was he forced out? Both. So again, it depends on what you mean. So was he forced out? Of course he was forced out. You think you just woke up? He's like, oh yeah, you know what? Screw my legacy. I don't want to be a two -term president. I'll just drop out for no reason. No, we forced them out. Of course we did, right?

2:34:55And when I say we, I had a tiny, tiny, tiny role. The people who had the major roles, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, and all those folks. But even they were not the main driving force. The number one driving force were the donors. What is the source of power of Bernie or Massey, the people, right? What is the source of power for Biden? The donors. The donors made Biden. He is the donors candidate. And the donors, that's why he told the donors nothing will fundamentally change. That it like you can, if you say Lex, no, Jank, I think you're too extreme that Biden works for the donors 98%. I think he only works for the 80 % or 55%, fine, we could have that debate.

2:35:37But you can't argue that it isn't his source of power. And you can't argue it anymore, even if you were going to argue it earlier, because once the donors said we're not giving you any more money, he didn't have any options. He couldn't go on. So, but was he forced out it like knife point or something? No. So was it volunteer? Yeah, ultimately, if Biden decided to stay in, there was nothing we could do about it. And so he had to voluntarily make that decision, but he voluntarily made it because he had no choice left. Yeah, I wish he stepped down voluntarily from a place of strength. So I think, I think presidents, I think politicians in general, especially at the highest levels, want legacy.

2:36:21And to me, at least one of the greatest things you could do is to walk away from the top. I mean, George Washington, to walk away from power is, I think university respected, especially if you got a good speech to go with it and you do it really well. Not in some kind of cynical or calculator, some kind of transactional way, but just like as a great leader. And maybe be a little bit even more dramatic than you need to be in doing it. Yeah, I thought that would be a beautiful moment. And then launch a some kind of democratic process for electing a different option. Not only did I agree with you 100%, I reached one of the his top advisors, one of the guys you've seen the press all the time as in his inner circle.

2:37:12I never said that before because we were in the middle of it and I'm never going to betray anyone's confidence and I'll never say who who it was. Okay. But he was gracious enough to meet with me as I was about to enter the primary. And look, it's smart too because get information, intelligence, et cetera. What is this guy going to be trouble or not trouble, right? But at least he took to meeting. And the case I made is exactly the one you just said, Lex, I said, if he drops this about 10 months ago, I said, if he drops out now, they built statues of them, right? The Democrats, you're right. When you're hated, I get it.

2:37:48But the Democrats would have said he beat Trump and protected democracy in 2020. And he steps down graciously now to make sure we beat Trump again in 2024. And he let's go of power voluntarily. You're he's going to be a hero, an absolute hero. But if he doesn't, you're going to force all of us to kick the living crap out of him. And tell everybody he's an ego, maniac, which he is. And he's doing this for two so that he could be if you don't know Washington in that bubble, if you're a one term president, you're a loser. If you're a two term president, you have a legacy in your historic. He's running for one reason, one reason only my legacy.

2:38:31I will be a two term president. I will be considered his story. I'm like, brother, now you're going to be considered a villain, the villain of the story. You're handing it right back to Trump. You're not going to win. And you know, look at the numbers, any political professional knows you're not going to win. So you have hero villain. And you get to choose. But if you think you're going to be a hero and be Trump, that is not a choice you have. That is not going to happen. And they didn't believe us. But by that and they did. Well, you're troubled by the how Kamala Harris was selected after he stepped down.

2:39:05Yes, and no. So I argued for an open convention. And so if Biden had stepped down when we were trying to get people into the primary knock him out, then that would have been a perfect solution. Then all the governors could go in and walls, be sheer Whitmer, Kamala Harris goes in obviously. They have a real primary at that point. Me later Dean Phillips came in me, Dean and I'm a Mary. I wouldn't drop up. Me and Dean would definitely drop out because our whole point was get other people in the race. Make sure we win. Right. So, okay, then you would have had a great primary. It would have been the right way to do it, both morally, you know, constitutionally, et cetera.

2:39:46But also as a matter of politics, because you would have gotten a lot of coverage for your young, exciting candidates. And you would have legitimized the idea of the you're protecting democracy. Okay, so that didn't happen because of Biden. It is what it is. So now when Biden drops out, at least do a vestige of democracy. Go to the commission and do what it's designed to do, which is pick a candidate. As a client made a great case for this in the New York Times podcast that he did, that made a huge difference and he was great for doing that. So I believe in an opening your mission. But I know Democrats, they love to anoint because they don't trust the people.

2:40:21So they think the elites are geniuses. Don't worry. We'll pick the right candidate. Yeah, I remember when you picked Hillary Clinton had that workout, right? And I remember when you said Joe Biden was the right candidate in 2024, had that workout. Do not anoint. Right. So, but in the end, they didn't. So what happened was Biden does the first announcement. He either forgot or on purpose didn't put Kamala Harris in there. So there's all this kumbayan now. No, they don't like each other. Okay. And Biden's been screwing over the entire she's time she's been vice president. So he doesn't put her in the original statement.

2:40:57And I'm like, whoa, I do a live video. I mean, Kamala Harris is not in the statement, right? In the middle of my video, they put out a second one. Okay. Okay. Find Kamala Harris, right? Because that's too much for the president. Not to endorse. You think he was like really like somebody like stormed into the room? I said you absolutely must. I don't know. I wasn't there, but probably, right? Or they plan. I don't know. But the bottom line is it was glaring that he didn't put her in the first letter. Okay. So he had to put her in the second one. Fine. No problem. But Obama Pelosi and Schumer did not endorse Kamala Harris.

2:41:34That's huge. Normally the Democrats would all endorse her and would all say she's annoying to shut up everybody. And then MSMBC would scream, shut up, shut up. She's anointed, right? But they didn't do that. So then Kamala Harris had to win over the delegates. And I thought she would win them over in the convention, but she locked them up in two days. And she, I know because I know delegates, because I ran. And the delegates are calling me saying she's on, she's getting on a Zoom right now with us, right? She went to all the states and worked her ass off and locked up enough delegates to get the, to get the nomination to yeah, but come on.

2:42:12It's Biden endorsed. Of course. So why is that? And of course, why not say sort of layout walls and Shapiro and Kamala Harris and the options that say let's like at least the facade of democracy of a democratic process? There's what should happen and what is likely to happen. So should Biden not have endorsed? Yeah. Of course. I think Biden should have done the same thing as Obama and Pelosi and sit not endorsed and say, Hey, we'd love to have a process where we figure out who the right nominee is. And at that point, I'm really worried about Kamala Harris because she's doing word sales nonstop, right?

2:42:51So I'm like, don't make the same mistake we did before and just pick someone out of a hat, test them, test them. You get stronger candidates when you test them. Though authoritarian nature of the DNC drives me crazy. They don't believe in testing candidates. They don't believe in letting their own voters decide. And look, when we were in the primary, they canceled the Florida election. And then and they took me Dean and Mary Ann off the ballot in North Carolina and Tennessee. I'm like, guys, if you're going to make a case for democracy in the general election and you cancel elections in the primaries, do you not get how ridiculous you look, how hypocritical you look?

2:43:29Right? So I didn't want them to buy into endorse anyone. But I'm shocked that they didn't all endorse her because normally what happens is they all endorse. So bottom line Lex is, did she like earning in a perfect system, not even close, right? But did she earn it enough in this imperfect way where at least she showed some degree of competence that swaged my concerns? Yes. So because a normal Democrat would bungalow that they wouldn't go talk like Hillary Clinton when they talked to the delegates, she would assume that she's the queen and that they would all bow their heads. She would, you know, so the fact that she did elementary politics correct for Democrats is like a big win.

2:44:12It just really frustrated me because it smelled of the same thing of fucking over Bernie in 2015, 2016 and RFK and just the anointing aspect. Now they seem to have gotten lucky in the situation that it's very possible that Kamala Harris would have been selected through a democratic process. But I have to say, listening to the species of the DNC, Walls was amazing. Shapiro was really strong and Kamala actually was much better as compared to her as a candidate previously. But personally, it don't think she would have been the result of a democratic process. So you don't often give your opinions.

2:44:51But when you give the opinions, I actually agree 90, like a huge percentage of the time in this conversation. So I fought for Shapiro in the primer and when she was trying to pick for a VP because I thought there's no way she's going to pick walls. He's way too not just progressive, but more and more on the populist. Right. So I didn't think she'd go in that direction. And Shapiro actually did a bunch of populist things in Pennsylvania. That's part of reason why he's so popular in Pennsylvania. He looks like a smooth talking politician, but his actions are pretty good. And so Shapiro was great.

2:45:21Walls was great. The Obama's are legendary. Even Clinton, it is advanced age makes terrific points in a speech where you go, well, that one's hard to argue with. Right. And so they all, I'm shocked at the competence of the DNC. Shocked at it. But of all those likes. So you can give a good speech. And the Obama's given mean speech, but I saw Obama as president. He didn't deliver on that. So, but the one guy that stood out is Walls. And the reason is because he's a real person. Yeah. Real person, populist. We all got to work towards picking the most genuine candidates. So here on the right wing side, for example, I would prefer a Marjorie Taylor green to a Mitch McConnell any day.

2:46:08Marjorie Taylor green is genuine. She, she might be genuinely not. So I don't agree with her. She might be even more right wing than others. But I believe that she means it. And I'll take that any day over a fraud, corporates like Mitch McConnell, who's just going to do what is donors command of him, etc. I got to ask you because I also love Bernie still got it. I love Bernie. I always have. I enjoyed his, I think he might still do it, but I enjoyed his conversations with Tom Hartman. He's a genuine one like Bernie, even if you disagree with him, that's a genuine human being. Yep. So just talk about that.

2:46:47Is it trouble you that he's been fucked over in 2015, 16 and again, 2020, he seems to be, and why does it keep like forgiving people? Yeah. So I love Bernie for the same reason you're saying it because he's a real person. He's a populist. He means it. And that is so rare in politics. He's, I feel like I'm a diogenes and I went looking for the one honest man and found it in Bernie. And so I did a video in 2013 saying Bernie Sanders can beat Hillary Clinton in a primer in 2013. That video exists because why did I think that? I didn't say it of any of the corporate politicians and the guys who were supposed to challenge her and stuff because populist and honest, right?

2:47:34And the country's dying for an honest populist, dying for it, right? So love the brother. Now that doesn't mean that he's right on strategy and he drives me crazy on strategy. So two elements of that. Number one in 2016 and in 2020 for God's sake, attack your opponent. You said something about Trump that I disagree with where I'm defending Trump. Okay. You don't like what he did to the public discourse. No, I don't mind it because I would, and I'll tell you why. Yeah. Because at least he got a little bit past the fakeness. Like he's a con man and he's a fraud overall and he does everything for his own interest, but at least he doesn't speak like a bullshitting politician, right?

2:48:19And he's not wrong that you have to bully your own party to have mass enough power to get things done. And he showed that that's possible. So the problem with the Democrats is civility. So my whole life, you're like, oh, no, no, don't say anything. Let's lose with civility, right? So for example, in debates, you know, whether it's on TV online or whatever, Democrats or people on the left are always saying, I'm offended. I never get offended. No, after I'm done, you're going to be offended. Okay. Fight back, fighting back wins. And we couldn't get Bernie to fight back in 2020. He was one state away.

2:49:01He won the first three states. He crushed the Nevada. All we needed was South Carolina. But in order to get South Carolina, we all knew everybody on his campaign, everyone who's in progressive media, we all knew you've got to attack Biden. If you don't, they're just going to tsunami you, you know, corporate medias and the corporate politicians are going to run rough shot over you. You have to make the case against them. And so two times Bernie flinched. One in 2016 in the Brooklyn debate, they asked, did the money that Hillary Clinton taking from banks affect her votes? And he said, no, of course it affected her votes.

2:49:37Of course it did. You have to say yes, and you have to show it and prove it. The bankruptcy bill. When she was first lady, she was totally in favor of the American people and against the bankruptcy bill because it has the banks. You can't discharge any debts that the credit card debt and bank debt, et cetera. It's an awful bill. It's one of the most corporate bills. She was on the right side as a first lady. She becomes a center, it takes banker money and all of a sudden she flips over to the banker side. Say it Bernie, for God's sake say it, right? Then in one of the debates in 2020, his team prepares a tax against Biden.

2:50:17They're not personal. They're not like I, you can sense by now if I'm in a political race, my objective is ripped all the guys face. Right? Yeah. Politically, rhetorically, never physically. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so, but I would get into a point where they'd think, I don't know if I'm going to vote for Jank, but I know I'm not voting for the other guy. Okay. So you've got to do that if you want to win. So they prepare this. He says, I'm going to do it. He goes on the podium and doesn't do it because he can't. He's too damn nice. He just can't attack the other guy. Now, that's problem number one in strategy problem number two is something you alluded to.

2:50:55So Biden gets in office. Bernie thinks they're friends. They're not friends. Biden's just using him. So he uses them to get the credibility. And then he eviscerates 85 % of the progressive proposals that Bernie put forward. Biden throws away $15 minimum wage. That was Bernie's signature issue. Doesn't even propose the public option. Dumps paid family for no reason. I can go on and on. And Bernie co -signs on it because he thinks he's in an alliance. He thinks Biden's on his side. Anything's going to get things done. And to be fair to Bernie, like I said earlier, Obama got only 5 % of his agenda passed and Biden got 15%.

2:51:35Okay. So you're right, Bernie. You got three times more than under Obama, but you're wrong. That is not fundamental change. And without fundamental change were screwed. Let me ask you about another impressive speech. AOC is a possible that she's the future of the party. Teacher president. No. So AOC in my opinion lost her way. And so in which way? So it's tough talking about these things because people take it so personally. Right. And that's why you'll see very few politicians on our shows because we give super tough interviews. And the words on the street, right? Like don't go out of your purse.

2:52:22They'll they'll ask you super hard questions. Right. So the only couple do it. Like Rokana does it. He's brave. We'll get into shouting. Sometimes in the middle of bills and stuff. But at least he's there to defend his position. I respect him for the Tim Ryan. A little bit more of a conservative Democrat when he was in the house. He would take on any debate, etc. So there's a couple of good guys that do it, but generally they don't. So what this relates to AOC because when AOC is running, we do 34 videos on her. We get her millions of views. We found adjusts Democrats and now launched it on the show.

2:52:58Our audience, Ryan Grim, documents it in one of his books, our audience raises $2 .5 million for those progressive candidates overall. And at that point, AOC and all those Rashida Tulleebe, etc. They're all dying to come on a young turks. It makes sense. I would too, of course. And it's not because it's the only person in any media outlet. And most media outlets, almost all the media outlets reject them. We cover AOC more than all the other press combined. Right. And she wins. For a number of reasons, that's one of the reasons, but there's many others. And she did a terrific job herself. She then takes Shoeikot and Corbin, who were the Shoeikot was ahead of just Democrats and Corbin was communications director for just Democrats.

2:53:43Then Shoeikot made one of the most brilliant political decisions in arguably an American history. He said, he called me and he said, Jank, I'm going to go from head adjusts Democrats to running AOC's campaign. And I'm like, well, the other candidates are going to get pissed. And you're staking the entire enterprise on one candidate. And I'm like, Shoeikot, I'm not in it. I'm doing the media arm. You're in the trenches. You're the guy making the decisions. So I'm going to trust whatever you say. You sure? And he said, I'm sure. So him and Corbin go over to AOC's campaign. AOC then wins that miraculous win.

2:54:22Then she hires Shoeikot to be her chief of staff and she hires Corbin to be her communications director within six months. They're gone. And once they're gone, AOC then goes on and establishment path. Okay. Because why were they gone? Oh, they insulted one of her colleagues. Yeah, that colleague who's a total corporatist and was selling out one of our policy proposals. If you don't call out your own side, you're never going to get anything done. But if you call out your own side, you become persona non grata and it is super uncomfortable. And we couldn't get them to do things that were uncomfortable.

2:54:59Now she's going to find that outrageous and she's going to be very offended by that. And she's going to point to a bunch of things she did that were uncomfortable. And to be fair to her, she has. She's until that speech, she was pretty good on Palestine. When we desperately needed it, she's pretty good on a bunch of issues. Cory Bush did that campaign on evictions, etc. on the capital stats. That was great. AOC's original sit -in in Pelosi's office. That point we're all still on the same team. It's a spectacular success. Me, Corbin and Shoeikot are saying, do it again and do it again. Like, now don't abuse it.

2:55:34Like, don't be a clown and do it every other day. But like, when it matters, you need to be able to challenge Pelosi. Right? And to in my opinion, she just got to a point where she got exhausted being uncomfortable. It's like, it's really hard. The media hates you and they keep pounding away and calling you a radical and you're destroying the Democratic Party, you're destroying unity. So whereas if you go along, all of a sudden, you're a queen. And now all of a sudden, the mainstream media is saying, oh, AOC, she could be the forgot. I mean, there's something to agree to which you want to sometimes buy your time and just like rest a bit.

2:56:16And I think from my perspective, maybe you can educate me. She seems like a legit progressive, legit, even populist, charismatic, young, like a lot of time to develop the game of politics, how to play it well enough to avoid the bullshit. I guess she doesn't take corporate back money. That's right. No, she's still true on that. So as far as I'm just looking over the next few elections, like who's going to be a running, who's going to be who's going to be a real player. She just seems like an obvious person that's going to be in the race. So while I fight for the ideal, I'm very practical. So for example, in she wins.

2:57:07And then one cycle later, after 2020, there's these guys who wanted to quote, quote, quote, force the vote. And it was on the speakership of Nancy Pelosi. And they wanted to use it to get Medicare for all. I'm like, guys, forcing a vote is a terrific idea. On the speakership, okay, who's your alternative? Oh, we don't have an alternative. Already giant red flag. Okay. What's the issue you're looking to have them vote on Medicare for all? Oh, you don't know politics. So I love Medicare for all. We have to get Medicare for all. But if you if that's the first one you put up without gaining any leverage, you're going to get slaughtered.

2:57:53Put up something easy, force a vote on $15 minimum wage, or pick another one that's easy paid family leave. These are all pulling great. Because if you force a vote on that, you could actually win. And if you win, you gain leverage. And then you do the next one and the next one. And then you do Medicare for all, not bullshit, gradualism that the corporate Democrats do, but actually strategically, practically building a power and leverage and using it at the right times. So if I thought that's what AOC was doing, I would love it. Right. So I don't need her to force a vote on Medicare for all. I don't need her to go on some wild tangents that don't make any sense and is only going to diminish your power.

2:58:34But when they eviscerated all the progressive proposals and build back better, how did that happen? Manchin and cinema used every ounce of leverage they had. They said, I'm just not going to vote for it. I don't care. Okay. You know, the status quo is perfect for my donors. So I don't need you. I vote no. Okay. Now take out everything I want. And Biden did, right. Progressives had to push back and say, here is two to three proposals, right. Not everything, not everything, two to three proposals. They all pull over 70%. They're all no brainers and they're all things that Joe Biden promised. We want those in the bill.

2:59:19Otherwise, we're voting no. At that point, the media, what would have happened is the media would have exploded and they would have said, AOC and the rest are the scum of the earth. They're ruining the Democratic Party. We're not going to get the bill. They're the worst. You have to withstand that. If you cannot withstand a nuclear blast for mainstream media, you're not the person because you that's you have to run that obstacle course to get to change. If they had stood their ground, they definitely would have won on one to two of those issues. Instead, they went with a strategy that was called.

2:59:53It was literally called trust Biden. All right. So a big question. Who wins? Who wins this election? Kamala or Trump? And what's Kamala's path to victory? And if you can steal man, what's Trump's path to victory? Yeah. So there's not enough information yet. So since I make a lot of predictions on air and then brag about it, unbearably, people are always they'll stop me in this reason. They'll like predict this, like predict my marriage. Brother, I don't know anything about your marriage. How could I possibly predict something without having any any information? So in the case of this campaign, right now I got Kamala Harris said 55 % chance of winning.

3:00:38Okay, which is not bad. Does mean she's going to win by 55 because then that would be a 10 point margin. That's not going to happen, right? But I say around 51 to 55, but it's nowhere near over because of a lot of things. One, the Democrats are still seen as more establishment and people hate this establishment. Two, if war breaks out in the Middle East, which is now unfortunately bordering on likely, right? If that war breaks out, all bets are off. Do you mean a regional war? Yeah. Like Iran, Israel gets to be a real thing, not just a pinprick and a little bombing here in an assassination there.

3:01:20But no, we're going to war, right? If that happens, then all bets are off and no one has any idea who's going to win. Okay. And if they're pretending that they know, that's ridiculous because it's so unpredictable. And then the third bogey for her is if she goes back to word sounds. So that so there's three phases of Kamala Harris's career. She's not necessarily any different in terms of policy. You can frame it in a bad way, you can frame it in a good way. You can say, oh, she's just seeing where the wind is blowing and then, oh, she's a tough cop prosecutor. Oh, and then she's doing justice reform when you need people want justice reform.

3:02:02Oh, she's a waffler, right? Or you could paint it as she's pretty balanced, right? She prosecuted serious criminals very harshly. But then on marijuana possession, got them into rehab. And you know what? That's actually what you should do, right? So I'm not talking about policy. So there you could have one of those views about Kamala Harris and I get it. I'm talking about strategic stylistically. So Kamala Harris until the second debate in the primaries in 2020 is a very competent politician who's in line to be the next Obama, right? She's killing it, district attorney attorney general, Senator.

3:02:45And then the first debate, if you remember, she won. She had that great line about, you know, there was a little girl on that bus that was integrating the schools and that girl was me. And Biden being the knucklehead that he is, he's caught on tape going. You don't have to reaction, brother. Okay, because she's criticizing his segregation balls, the embosses back in the 70s. So anyways, so she's doing terrific. And then after that debate until Biden drops out is it disaster area for Kamala Harris's career in the primary, she starts falling apart. She can't strategize right? She's for Medicare for all.

3:03:28No, she's not. She's for Medicare for some. What's Medicare for some? I don't know, right? And she goes into the next debate and tells the gathered kicks her ass and then goes to another debate gets her ass kicked again. And she's starting to drift away. Then at this point, this is funny. I have more votes for president than Kamala Harris does because Kamala Harris dropped out before Iowa because that's how much of a disaster her campaign turned into was she was leading. She was leading, right? So then she becomes vice president and Biden, because probably because of that bus line, Jill Biden caught tremendous feelings over that line.

3:04:05Okay. So Biden's like, here, have this albatross around your neck. It's called immigration. Good luck. I'm not going to do anything about it. I'm not going to change policy, but I'm putting you in charge of it to get your ass handed to. Okay. And she does. So that's a disaster. And then she starts doing interviews where she's like, we have to become the chain to being, but not the thing we were and the unbecoming. And you're like, what is going on? Why can neither one of them speak? And so, but then the third act shocks me. Biden steps down. She goes grabs all those delegates in a super competent way that we talked about earlier.

3:04:45And then she goes out and gives a speech. I'm like, oh, that speech is good. Okay. She another one, another one. I'm like, wait a minute. These are good speeches. No more worst salads. Then she picks Tim Walls and shocks the world. I'm like, that's the correct VP pick. That is a miracle. Right. And then she goes and does the economically populist plan, all those proposals about housing that people care about, gross reprices that people care about, real or not real. That is correct political strategy. So this Kamala Harris is back to their original Kamala Harris, who was a very competent skilled politician.

3:05:23And as I was telling you offline, she's doing whoever's doing her TikTok is like blowing up and they're doing risky, edgy stuff. Yes. I did not expect that from somebody that kind of comes from the Biden camp of just like be safe, be boring, all this kind of stuff. So you have to give Kamala Harris ultimate credit because she's the leader of the campaign and she makes the final decisions. But there's there's apparently a couple of people inside that campaign that are asked kickers. And they're and they have convinced her to take risk, which Democrats never take. And it is correct to take risks.

3:05:59You cannot get the victory without risk. So the vice president pick was is the bell weather. When Hillary Clinton picked Tim Kane, I said, that's it. She's going to lose because Tim Kane is playing prevent defense. He's his wallpaper. I mean, he'd be lucky to be wallpaper. He's just a white wall, right. He's just and when he speaks his white noise, he never says anything interesting. He's the most boring pick of all time. That's saying we already won. Ha ha. Okay. If Kamala Harris had picked Mark Kelly, that's the Tim Kane equivalent. Okay. Oh, he's an astronaut. I don't even shit that he's an astronaut.

3:06:34What is he saying? Is he a good politician? Does he have good policies? Is he exciting on the campaign trail? Is he going to add to your momentum? Mark Kelly, he might be a good guy, but number one, he's a very corporate Democrat. And number two, it's like watching grass grow. He's terrible as speaking of you asked me, right? So so I thought for sure, she's going to pick Mark Kelly. Because that's what a normal Democrat does. Or if they want to go wild and crazy, they'll go to be sure. So I was like, please let it be Shapiro because he's at least not bad. He's done some popular things and he's strategic.

3:07:10He's really smart. I need smart candidates. Dumb candidates don't help. They don't have a mind of their own. They can't take risks. They're not independent thinkers. They're they're going to lose. So she picks the smartest, most populous candidate. Boom, boom. We got a winner. That's a good campaign. Speaking of risks, when they debate, when Kamala and Trump debate, what do you think that's going to look like? Who is who is going to win? Oh, that's not close. Connoharis. Yeah, unless she falls apart, unless she goes back to the bad era, right? That's risk number three. Hold on a second. Oh, I guess in a debate, you don't have you can have prewritten.

3:07:49It seems like when she's going off the top of her head is when the word salad sometimes comes out. Sometimes. Yeah, we'll have to see. We'll have to see because she hasn't done any tough interviews. She hasn't really been challenged. So I hope to God, that doesn't happen. That she doesn't fall apart. You mean? Yeah. Because I hope she does a bunch of interviews. Oh, definitely, definitely. I'm like, this is going to sound really funny. I'm too honest. But I am. In the context of Kamala Harris probably shouldn't come on the young terms. We do a really tough interview and it would hurt her. Okay.

3:08:22You know, it's tough, but you're pretty respectful. Maybe I just have my like, I'm okay with a little bit of tension. You're pretty respectful. Even when you're yelling, there's like respect. You don't do like a gotcha type thing. There's certain things you could do. Like you said this in the past. You can say a line from the past that's out of context. It forces you other person to have to define the context. You just sort of debate type tactics over and over. You don't seem to do that. You just ask them questions genuinely and then you argue the point. And then you also like hear what they say.

3:09:05The only thing you I've seen you do sometimes tough that you sometimes like interrupt like you speak over the person. If they are trying to do the same, right, which only their filibuster. Yeah. If they're filibuster. But like that's a tricky one. That's a. Yeah. That's a trick. Right. No, but like the problem for her coming on our show isn't that we would be unfair to her. It's that we would be fair. So we would ask questions. She is going to have trouble answering other corporate. Right. I mean, like so Biden said he was going to take the corporate tax rate to 28 % and he barely tried. You say you're going to take it to 28 % why should we trust you?

3:09:43Right. You guys said $15 and wage and then you took it out of the bill. Why should we trust you? Right. Those are very tough questions. She's never going to get that in mainstream media. Mainstream media is going to have faux toughness. But in reality, they're going to be softballs. Right. And so the debates you're right, Lex is a little bit easier because Sarah Palin proved that you could just memorize scripted talking points. And she admitted it later. She's like she was super nervous. She memorized the talking points. No matter what they asked, she just gave the talking point, which by the way, people barely noticed because that's what all politicians do.

3:10:23She just admitted it. And so no, Trump's a disaster in a debate. He's a one man wrecking crew of his own campaign. So any competent debater would have viscerated Donald Trump. I mean, they just on any given topic when he says something like here, let's take one lunatic conspiracy theory that he just had recently. And by the way, if you're right, Winger, you keep getting hurt every time I say he's a lunatic or insult Donald Trump. Don't like you're you sound like a left winger. I'm offended. I'm offended. I'm offended. Get over it. Get over it. Okay. So we have disagreements. Hear what the other side is saying.

3:11:05And by the way, I say the same thing to the left. Okay. I say, you think everybody on the right's evil here crazy. No, they just have a different way of looking at the world, which by the way is an interesting conversation. We should talk about that in a minute too. But so I do it to both sides. But okay, but Trump says, oh, I don't think there's anyone at Kamala Harris's rallies. It's all the pictures are AI. Okay. So let's say he says that in a debate because he's liable to say anything, right? You just say, okay, so you think every reporter that was there, every photographer that was there, every human being that was there, they're all lying.

3:11:44They have a conspiracy of thousands of people, but none of them were actually there. Do you understand how insane you sound? So this is a good place to, can you steal man the case for Trump? Yeah. Yeah. So Trump is a massive risk because of all the things we talked about earlier. But there is a percentage chance that he's such a wild card that he overturns the whole system. And that is why the establishment is a little scared of him. So if he's in office, here I'll give you a case of Donald Trump doing something right. Something wrong first and then something right. So he bombs Solomon, the top general of Iran and kills him.

3:12:27That risk World War III, that risk a giant war with Iran that devils Iran is four times the size of Iraq. If you're anti war, you should have hated that he assassinated Solomon. But after the assassination, Iran doesn't want to get into it even though they're in a rage and they do a small bombing. You could tell if it's a smaller a big one, right? So that's them saying we don't really want war, but for our domestic crowd, we have to bomb you back, right? And that's when the military industrial complex comes to Trump and says, no, you have to show him who's tough and bomb this area. And Trump says, no, they did a small bombing, not a large bombing.

3:13:06I don't want the war. I'm not going to do that, bombing. That was this shining moment. Yeah, for me, one of the biggest steel man for Trump is that he has both the skill and the predisposition to not be a war mage. He, I think better than the other candidates I've seen is able to end wars and end them. Now you might disagree with it, but in a way where there's legitimately effective negotiation that happens. Like I just don't see any other candidate currently being able to sit down with the lens, Campouton, and to negotiate a peace treaty that both are equally unhappy with. So on the one hand, almost all other politicians are going to be controlled by the military industrial complex.

3:13:56And that complex wants to bleed Russia dry. And that's what the Ukraine war is doing. It's a double win for the defense contractors. Number one, every dollar we spend send to Ukraine is actually not going to Ukraine. It's going to US defense contractors. And then they are sending old weapons to Ukraine. The money is to build new weapons for us. So a lot of and they're in enormous influence out of Washington. The second win is they're depleting Russia. And Russia has gotten themselves into a quagmire like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. And they're bleeding out. So the military and their industrial complex wants Russia to bleed out for as long as humanly possible.

3:14:45They actually care more about their own interests, of course, than they do about Ukrainian interests. So in fact, there's a good argument to be made that Ukraine could have gotten a piece of the earlier and we prevented it. So but the bottom line now is probably how a deal gets done is they let go of three more areas in Ukraine. They already lost Crimea. They'd have to let go of three more regions. And that is tough because at that point, Russia's a little bit encouraged every time they do an invasion, they get more land. They might not get old land they wanted, but they get a lot of land. So that's it's a very difficult issue.

3:15:27But literally which which person if they become president will end the war. Trump will end that war because Trump will go in and he loves Russia and Putin anyway. I just disagree with it. He loves Russia. The implication of that, meaning he'll do whatever Putin tells them. I think he'll do 90 % of what Putin tells him. I just disagree with that. I think I think he wants to be the kind of person that says, fuck you to Putin. While patent them on the back and being, you know, but out negotiating Putin. So I don't like talking about Russia because there's so much emotions that go into that topic.

3:16:09The right wing, the minute you mention Russia, they're like, oh, it's a hoax and all this baggage that comes with it, et cetera. To me, Russia's not any different than Saudi Arabia or Israel for Trump. You give me money. I like you. You give by my apartments. I like you. If you don't give me money, I don't like you. It's not that complicated. So okay, take like don't worry about the Russia part of it. Like the bottom line is Trump thinks, what do I care about those three regions of Ukraine? I want to get this thing done. Right? So he'll go and he'll say, Ukraine, we're going to withdraw all help unless you agree to a peace deal with Russia and Russia wants those three regions.

3:16:52That's the peace deal. That's it. So Ukraine will lose a part of their country and we'll get to a peace deal. Yeah, I hope not. I hope not. I think Trump sees themselves and wants to be a great negotiator. So and I personally want the death, the death of people to end. And I think Trump would bring that much faster. And I disagree with you, at least at my hope is that he wouldn't negotiate something that would be fair. He's not his anti -war record is so complicated because moving the embassy in Israel and killing the top Iranian general were super provocative and they could have easily triggered a giant war there.

3:17:44And then you know what's going to happen if you get into any kind of real war. Trump's going to want to prove his buttons larger. So then he's going to do massive ridiculous bombings. I mean, I'm worried about nukes. And so we had Giuliani on the show on the R &C. And I asked him this question. I said, you know, keep saying, oh, they wouldn't do it if I was in charge. I'm like, what does that mean? Because it sounds like what it means is they wouldn't do it because they know if they did it, I would do something insane like attack Russia or use nukes. And Rudy said, yeah, that's what it means. So that means you have to at least bluff that and you have to get them to believe that he's a madman.

3:18:26That's the madman theory of Nixon. And Rudy said that too. He was very clear about it. But the problem is if you get your bluff calls. And so if you actually attack Russia, you're going to start World War three. So that's why yeah, if you could, if you could just get away with bluffing, maybe, but he's playing a very dangerous game. And he massively increased drone strikes. On the other hand, he didn't bomb Iran further. And on the other hand, he started the process of withdrawal from Afghanistan. So not black and white, complicated record. And one thing I give him another piece of credit here.

3:19:07I think I'm taking this steelman too far. But here's the credit was that he changed the rhetoric of the right wing. They went from the party of Dick Cheney. War is great. And let's say, you know, all Muslims are evil. And so he hates Muslims too. But that's a different thing. Right. But like, oh, we have to attack the enemy. We have to start wars, etc. To now, Republican voters are generally anti war and hate Dick Cheney. Oh, I'll take it. I'll take it. That's a great thing that Trump did. Even if he didn't mean it, even if he does these provocative things that could lead to a much worse war, even if I'm worried that he'll be so reckless, he'll start a bigger war.

3:19:53At least he did that right. And so I'm happy to have our right wing brothers and sisters join us in the anti war movement. And I'm not being a jerk about it. Like, I love it. And any, and so this is another thing the left does wrong from time to time, which is if you agree with a right wing or two percent, they'll be like, oh, welcome in. Come on, vote for Trump. Come on in. Yeah. Woohoo. What is warm? Right. If you, if you disagree with the left, two percent, they're like, that's it. You're banished and you're a Nazi. Well, brother, how are we going to win an election if you're banishing everybody?

3:20:28There is. Right. So hold up the, these Republican voters are coming at your anti war position. Take the win. No, they're mad. God, I won't deal with them. Even when they agree with you, that doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make any sense. Take the win. Right. So when Charlie Kirk says he has to pay family leave when Patrick, but David on his program says yes, roughly says he has to pay family leave. Take the win. Our case junior, you said some positive things for a while about RFK junior. And I think you said you would even consider voting for him, given the slate of people. This was at the time when Biden was still in.

3:21:13What do you think about him? What do you think about RFK junior? As a candidate, as a person, he's been on the show, right? Yeah. So he was on our show. People love that interview. You can check it out anytime. Right. And why do people love it, whether they're right or left, because we're fair. We actually asked about his policy positions. He explained them, I challenge him and then he explains and we give him a fair hearing. But I knew Bobby a little bit before he ran when he was an environmental lawyer, right? And his legal work is excellent. And he's been on the right side of most of the issues for most of his life.

3:21:53So A. I like him on that too on his wildlife, the dead bear and the worms and all that stuff, right? So there's two important lessons you should get about out of that. Well, one's just about Bobby, but the other one's a general one that's really important for you to know no matter what you think of Bobby Kennedy. On the personal front, I have a friend that's very similar to him. In fact, he's one of my best friends. And I know why I, this is my theory on why Bobby and my friend are led a wildlife. Both of their dads died young. When my friends dad died, he was 18 and his dad died in his arms. And he has a motto, what his lived cannot be unlived.

3:22:36So if I had a great time, and I thought it was hilarious to dump a dead bear central park, then I lived it and I had a great time and nothing you could do about it. Okay. And sometimes that'll get you in trouble. And sometimes you'll have a fantastic time, right? And obviously Bobby's dad was killed when he was young. And maybe that got into his head of like, you better live strong and, and you know, live an interesting life. And so I don't begrudge him that. Even if I begrudge some of the things that he did in that life, I get why he did it. So I don't hate him like other people hate him for some of those personal stuff, right?

3:23:18So, and I like him for all the things that he did positive, holding, you know, fossil fuel companies accountable, protecting communities that had poison dumped into the rivers, et cetera, right? So the thing that affects everybody is, when he gets like corporate media smeared the hell out of him, and they didn't allow him to speak, and then they did the needle in a haystack trick. So whenever it's an insider, they find the best parts of their lives and then they amplify. So Joe Biden has averaged Joe from Scranton. Motherfucker's been in DC for the last 52 years. You think we don't have eyes in ears?

3:23:58Okay. Like average Joe from Scranton, who are you kidding? So there's a guy named Fred Thompson who's an actor and he was a senator from Tennessee later. And he had this great little trick that he would do as a red pickup truck that he would campaign with, right? So he looks like a regular Joe, right? But he's a millionaire actor. But here's the funny part. He would drive to the red pickup truck in a limo. And he would drive back from the campaign event in a limo. But the press never reported the limo. They only reported him in the red pickup truck as if that's what he drives. See, that's the theater of politics.

3:24:33Why? Because Fred Thompson was a corporate Republican. So they loved them. So they go, yeah, sure. Yeah, red pickup truck. Oh, go all Fred Thompson, right? So, but if you're an outsider and they don't like you, then they're going to look at the haystack of your life and they're going to try to find needles. So they've done this to Trump. They've done this to Bernie. They've done this to Bobby Kennedy Jr. And with Bobby, they're like, ooh, there's some juicy needles in here. Okay. So they find those and they go, you see this? The only thing you should know about Bobby Kennedy Jr. Is that he found a dead bear and put it in central park.

3:25:12Oh, wait, wait, wait, I found another one. The other thing you should know about Bobby is that he once set it in a divorce deposition that he had a brainwashed, by the way, it turns out to that affects millions of people. And it's not that big a deal, right? But look, he has a radical. Ah, he is. This defines him completely. The spectacular case of that actually happened to me. So I ran for Congress in 2020 and the New York Times, LA Times, CNN, they all butchered me with needles. Okay. So they said, it's a long history of making anti -Muslim jokes. Well, at first, they didn't even say jokes. They said anti -Muslim rhetoric.

3:25:53I'm like, I'm Muslim. I mean, I'm atheist, but I grew up Muslim, my family's Muslim, my story. And they did it based on one joke I told about. And they said, oh, also, of course, I mean, they say that I'm anti -Semitic. That's like, you start with that. That's just baked in for everyone, right? So they said, I made a joke about how orthodox Jews and Muslims, they think that getting into heaven is a little bit of a fashion contest. Okay. So the orthodox Jews go in there with a Russian coast from the 1800s and the giant Russian hat, the Muslims going with their robe and the skull cap and stuff. And God's looking around going, now, no, no, oh, nice outfit.

3:26:39Come on in, right? Like, you really think the creator of the universe gives a damn what you wear. Okay. So the New York Times took that and said long history of being anti -Semitic and anti -Muslim. Okay. So there's this, oh, this is a famous one relatively. I did a joke about beach -chality like nice a dozen years ago. Very nice. So I start out the joke nice and dry. And I go, look, is the horse gonna object if he's the one getting pleasure. Now, Anna's my co -host, she's younger at that time. And she's like, that seems like a bad idea, chicken. I'm like, of course, is that a bad idea? Okay. But I'm being dry.

3:27:18But some people are laughing in the studio stuff. And then, and then I say, you know, if I was emperor of the world, I would make that legal. And they cut the tape. If you watched the rest of the tape, I say, now, would the horse object? No! So, but they cut the tape. So the New York Times, so originally, I write when you did that. And then a like establishment troll in that primary started putting out those tapes to everyone. Jake Tapper retweeted it. Didn't look to see if it's edited or not edited it. The New York Times implied that beach -chality was part of my agenda. Jesus! Please tell me that.

3:28:01Far to your Wikipedia. That the beach -chality thing is part of your... I don't know. I don't know. But guys, so in that, in those stories, I'm not important. And even Bobby Kennedy Jr. is not important. What it reveals about the media is what's important. So they're going to find those needles. And even if they don't have the needles, you know what? We'll cut the tape before your joke's punchline. Right? So we'll just run it. We'll lie about you. Who cares? Right? And so, oh, they also said that I had David Dukon to share his anti -Semitic point of view. If you watch the interview, I told David Duk, you're an anti -Semite, you're a racist, you're a idiot, right?

3:28:44It was the toughest interview he's probably ever had in his life. And other journalists got mad at that point. And they were like, no, guys, you're just flat out lying. Like, I watched the interview. Did any of you watch the interview? He takes the guys head off, right? And so the New York Times issued a correction on that one. So they're like, okay, fine. He was a being sarcastic when he said, sure you're not racist, Dave. Okay. But one of the sources I hope to all this is there's a lot of independent media now. But mainstream media has a lot of power still. And cares a lot of power. Do you think they're going to die eventually?

3:29:22Yeah, definitely. So two things about that that are super important. First of all, this is why I tell people that I have hope. I don't believe in false hope, right? So if you think Kamala Harris is your night in shining armor, she's going to come in, she's going to get money out of politics, she's going to ignore the donors. That's false hope. That's crazy talk, right? So I why my favorite Kamala Harris, I'm going to live to fight another day. I'm worried that Trump's going to end the whole thing. And then then we're not going to have an opportunity to actually get a populist win, right? So and I'm encouraged by some of the things she's doing.

3:29:52Maybe she does even 25 % of her gender. But I'm not going to give you false hope that she's your savior, right? But I believe massively in hope. And number one, because it's true to the point that we were talking about earlier, Lex, and how last 200 years have been choppy, but overall fantastic, terrible things have happened in that time period. Some of the worst things that have ever happened in history, but overall life expectancy is higher. Everything is, you know, incomes are higher, health is better, et cetera, right? So hope is not misplaced. It's real. It's empirical. Okay. So now we talked about how you could get money out of politics, and media is another place where we have huge hope.

3:30:36So of all the corporate robots, the most important robot is media. So when mainstream media has you hooked in at the back of your neck, you're going to believe all these fairy tales about how politicians are nice people, and they're trying to do the right thing. And donor money doesn't have any influence on them, right? So once you unplug from the matrix, well, then you begin to see, oh, yeah, hey, look, he took the donor money to do what the donors wanted. He took the donor money to do what the donors want 98 % of the time, right? So then you see clearly. So now what's happening at large mainstream media is losing their power.

3:31:13And now online media is swarming, swarming, swarming, swarming. And so this goes back to why I started the young Turks. So let me touch on that here, and then we can come back to do if you want. So in 1998, I write an email to my friends, and I say, online video is going to be television. And unsurprisingly, and they say, you're nuts, that's never going to happen. At that point, we're still doing AOL dialogues, like, right? Online video barely exists, and televisions mammoth. I say, guys, it's just a matter of logic. Like for me, there's so many ironies. I'm known for yelling online sometimes.

3:31:58But in reality, I'm obsessed with logic. So when you have gatekeepers, gatekeepers pick based on what they want, what the powerful one, in that case, advertisers, politicians, et cetera, they are never going to design programming as good as wisdom of the crowd. When people start doing online video, I'm like, boom, there's no gatekeepers. This is democratized. Wisdom of the crowd is going to win. So if you start with no money, and let's pick a different example, not the young Turks, let's say, Phil DeFranco, he's been around forever. Okay. And he also does news. And so Phil starts doing a show.

3:32:36And he doesn't have any money. It's just like us. And so what is he, what does he have to do to get an audience? He has to do a show that is really popular. He's got to figure out a way. How do I get their attention? How do I keep their attention? And he starts doing a great show. Right? And so every year, it's us and Phil for best news show for like a decade, right? And meanwhile, I'm back over at CNN. Wolf Blitz are still droning on from a teleprompter. You put Wolf Blitz are online without the force of CNN with them. He gets negative seven views. No one's interested in Wolf Blitz are I say it's not personal.

3:33:15I don't know the brother, right? I'm just saying institutionally logically, etc. So I'm like, these guys are going to win. So when YouTube starts, we go on YouTube right away. We're the first YouTube partner. So I am literally the original YouTuber. Okay. Nice. Susan Wajewski, this former CEO of the late Susan Wajewski, wonderful woman. And if that triggers you again on the right, you're wrong. She was a terrific person. And when she started her own YouTube channel, I was the first interview because we were the first YouTube partner. So I love that. So we're in that, but let me connect it back to the hope.

3:33:58When mainstream media has you hooked, you got no hope because you don't have the right information. You have propaganda, you have marketing, you don't have real news. When you're in the online world, it's chaotic. And don't get me wrong. It's got plenty of downsides, right? But within that chaos, the truth begins to emerge. And so, for example, young turksis had dozens of fights with different creators throughout history. Why? When your number one in news online, the algorithm rewards anyone attacking you because then you get into their algorithmic loop. It's not an accident that we've been attacked dozens of times.

3:34:36One, we're independent thinkers. So anyone, if we don't match their ideology, they're going to attack us. But number two, they get in our algorithm loop. It's too hard to resist, right? So all of a sudden, they think that we're being funded by Nancy Pelosi or the CIA. And oh, we're off to the races. There's another fight, right? But our competition is a graveyard. And so we've, we won almost all of all of those fights. Why? Because we try really hard to stick with the truth with logic. And we don't do audience capture. Even if our audience is going in one direction, we don't think it's right. We'll, Anna and I will come out and go, no, sorry, guys, love you.

3:35:15But rent control is not a good idea. Okay. Et cetera. So in that world, the people, it's going to take a while, guys. But people who are telling the truth are eventually going to rise up. And when they do, now we're free. And now the second party's even more devastating for mainstream media because I'm a businessman, right? I keep looking at their revenue for CNN, et cetera. And they have a massive problem. And people don't realize how big the problem is. That thing's going to capsize. I don't talk about it often because I don't want more companies. Okay. I'm also have a company or a, hey, in the, in the online world, et cetera.

3:35:57But, but I'm too honest. I gotta say it. I gotta say it. So there, they have two revenue streams. One is ads. That's why they serve advertisers and politicians are huge advertisers as we mentioned. The second revenue stream, depending on the company is arguably more important, which is subscribers. So now what happens in a business normally is, so they started out low and then they got high. And now they got a ton of subscribers at its peak cable has 100 million households. Right? So they're rigging an unbelievable money from subscriber fees and they got advertising on top. So when you're all the way up here, your costs start to rise.

3:36:41Why do they rise? Because then the on -air talent has leverage. And as an example, there's many others. And so the on -air talent, like Sean Hannity says, I do a program that brings in X amount of maybe 100 million, maybe 200 million. So give me 40 million a year. And they do. Sean is making 40 million a year last I checked. Okay. So I don't know if he's still getting that kind of money and I'm just basing out of reporting. Right? But that's a monster. So they have all these giant costs. But the minute you go from 100 million, now we're at I think around 70 million. You just lost a giant chunk of your revenue.

3:37:18Now when your costs are higher than your revenue, 99, it's been nice knowing you. Yeah, it's going to collapse and it's going to be painful. But what we need guys, it's like, sorry, last thing on that is we need the print guys like AP Reuters intercept the lever, the Sarota runs whatever Ryan's working on now. It's that Ryan Grimm said, we need those badly. We need someone to collect actual information and do the best they can and presenting it in an objective way. We all got to support that. So you can't lose text. That's so important. The TV guys are just actors. You can lose them overnight and it won't hurt you.

3:37:57It'll help you. Yeah, it's going to be a messy battle for truth because the reality is there's a lot of money to be made and a lot of attention to be gained from drama farming. Sort of just constantly creating drama and sometimes drama helps find the truth like we were mentioning, but most of the time it's just drama and it doesn't care about the truth. It just cares about drama. And then the same as the conspiracy theories. Now some conspiracy theories have value and depth and they allow us to question the establishment institutions, but the bottom line is conspiracy theories get clicks. And so you can just keep coming up around conspiracy theories.

3:38:41Many of them don't have to be grounded in the truth at all. And so that's the sea we're operating in. And so it's a tricky space too. But Lex, look at all the people who are the biggest now because we've now had a couple of decades at this. Right. So I mean, as an industry. So I would argue you're huge and you don't do that. You don't do the conspiracy theories. You don't do the drama at all. Right. Rogan is huge. Yeah, maybe there's drama, but he's genuine. Right. I got a lot of issues with some of his policies. I mixed opinions on Joe in a lot of different ways. But I don't doubt that he's genuine.

3:39:23And people can sense that. Right. And he's huge. We're genuine. We're huge. So this is the market beginning to work. Yeah. So speaking of Joe, let me ask you about this. Here we go. I didn't actually know this, but when I was prepping for this conversation, I saw that you actually said at some point in the past that you can beat up Rogan in a fight. Yeah. No, you said that you have a shot. It's a non -zero probability. Yeah. Do you still believe this? Yes, but the probability is dropping. It's dropping every day. I think it's the probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard you say. So I did martial art.

3:40:01I wrestled and did Jiu -Jitsu and Jiro and all the kinds of fighting sports my whole life. And it just observed a lot of really confident, large guys roll into gyms. He's ripped. He could deadlift. He could talk all kinds of shit. And he's bleaced. He's gonna be the next world champion. And he just gets his ass kicked. Yeah. Oh, course. Okay. And I've seen like I saw this Israeli MMA fighter. It take on an anti -Semite who was huge and thought that, you know, he believed in like Nick Fuentes' conspiracy theories or something. And the MMA fighter dismantled them and I loved it. Okay. And then he like we tweeted back and forth, et cetera.

3:40:43So guys, first, let me just assure you I get it. So now let me tell you why I said it and then why I think it's a nonzero chance. So Michael Spurkonish had written this blog like 10, 15 years ago on Huffington Post. We're both bloggers at that point. And about the wussification of America. Now he was saying the left is a bunch of wussies, right? So I wrote a blog saying, Hey, Michael, I would rather debate you. So if you wanted to debate about how we're wussies, let's do it. Let's find out. But you know, you're mentioning physicality, right? And how you guys are tougher. So if you prefer only in a prescribed setting, right?

3:41:24And we're not going to go do it in the streets like idiots, right? But if you want, we'll have a boxing match or whatever you want. And we'll see who's tougher. And he panicked and he cried to mommy, which was Ariana Huffington. And oh, Jackson, intimidating me. Okay. All right. Well, who's the wussie now, bitch? Right? So that is not to actually get into a fight with poor Michael Spurkonish, right? It's to prove, hey, don't use rhetoric like that. That's dumb. And this is me proving that it's dumb. Okay. So now Joe had said, I forget what he said at the time. He said something similar, right?

3:42:01And I'm up to here with Joe at that point. I don't know if we'll ever talking yet, right? But you've been in a show and I really, that was a good conversation. That's a while back. Yeah. I hope he has you on again. Yeah. So I get it. I bet you, I don't like this take you have a lot. I bet you, he hates it because him as an MMA commentator, he gets to hear so many bros. Yeah. It's all about the mindset, bro. Now, the steel man, the point you're making, which I do think it's the stupidest thing you've ever said. But the actual intent, which is whether you're left or right, there's, there's strong people on the left, like mentally strong, physically strong.

3:42:47Like, I think the whole point is not that you can beat them, but you're willing to step, you're willing to fight if you need to. That's it's 100%. So it's not like I believe I could beat them. It's like I'm willing, like all this shit, you know, calling the people on the left, who says, or whatever, I'm willing to step in the fight. Even if I'm on train, even if I don't shake, I'm willing to fight. Yeah. I get it. I understand that. But it's just pick a different person. That's why I wrote down on my genuine curiosity is if you can beat up Alex, Alex Jones versus Jank, that, that, that, the Jimmy's I would pay for that because you're both untrained.

3:43:26You both got, I would say, the spirit. No, no, he has, look, I'll give the same fairness. Yeah. I think I got an 8 % chance of being a beating Rogan. You're the boss. I know. I got it. Hold on. All right. And I think to be fair, Alex has an 8 % chance of beating me. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. Because you never know. He catches you on a lucky punch. I got punched in the ear once and you lose your balance. And then you're in a lot of trouble. Right. So I can get lucky. Alex Jones can't lucky. It's me against Rogan is harder. Like you, if you said to me, you don't have 8 % chance. But Alex does. Okay. I'm not going to.

3:44:04It's fine. Right. So why would it does Alex stand almost no chance he asked me? So first of all, it's not just because I'm big and he's big. One, I wrestled. Are you wrestled? Yeah. If you wrestle, then you're, like, I watch this show with my kids, physical 100. It's like a Korean show where they try to find out who's the best, best athlete. They have one thing where they have to wrestle away the ball and keep it this big giant ball. I'm like, every wrestler is going to win. Every MMA fighter is going to win and every time they win. And they're like, that has you know that because we get trained.

3:44:35We're not going to lose to a non wrestler in a wrestling contest. It's not going to happen. Right. So you can get lucky, but it's unlikely. So one wrestling now that was from a long time ago, but at least you know the mechanics, right? Number two, I've gotten into about 30 actual street fights in my life. And you can say street fights, not the same as MMA. Of course, that's true. Obviously true. Right. But it's not no experience. It's some experience. And the most important part of a street fight is being able to take a punch to the face. Okay. Yeah. No one would have feels like to get punched in the face.

3:45:07Yeah. So I've been punched in the face. I don't know. Dozens of times in my life. I used to start fights by saying, I'll let you take the first punch. Okay. So I didn't start the fights. They just started because they'd punch me in the face. Okay. So and then for Alex, the main thing. And also true for Rogan is it's about willpower. Right. So if you if Joe has a 92 % chance in my opinion of knocking me out or beating me because he has the skill and he's trained and he knows what he's doing. So all the willpower in the world is going to help you if you get kicked upside the hat. Right. So but in the unlikely circumstances that I've worn him down.

3:45:51Right. Then I'm a little bit more in the ball game because I got willpower for Alex. He doesn't have the willpower I have. Okay. I'm because to me, the idea of losing Alex Jones is unthinkable. I would do anything not to lose. Anything. Let me just say so that's beautiful. I love this. I would pay a lot of money to watch the two of you just even like wrestle. But with Joe, I think I just I have to say it's like it's it's point zero zero zero one percent chance. You have a chance before you even get to the mentality. And the other thing is on the mentality side, one of the fascinating things about Joe is he's actually a sweetheart in person like this.

3:46:35But there's something that takes over when he competes. Brother, we've been around 22 years in the toughest industry in the world. Right. If you like you have any idea how hard it is to run a 75 person company and make money online and survive after all the guys who took billions of dollars went. I hear you. tremendous willpower. So but overall you're this is not the hill I'm dying on. Okay. Joe would win. I get it. I think we're all allowed one kind of blind spot, I suppose. So you don't think a huge a big guy that still isn't good shape. That was a wrestler that's been in a lot of street fights.

3:47:16You still think point zero zero zero one. It depends on street fights, but yeah point zero zero one. I just see. Yeah. And it's such a minute disagreement because so take me out of it. So you take out the willpower part of blah blah blah. Yeah. I think it's one to two percent. Yeah. He could catch the guy and about you know, I think it's lucky. I think it's because I've talked to you. So I train with coach named John down to her and we talk about this a lot. And I think technique is just such technique is the thing that also feeds the willpower. It actually builds up your confidence in the in the way that like nothing else does in the more actionable way because you won't need that much willpower.

3:47:55No, I think if the technique is back, but look, you don't have to be like a tough guy to win debates if you're just fucking good at debates, right? So I think we would just don't understand the value in sport and especially in combat of technique. Now, the great irony is I actually totally agree with that. That's why I made it match the physical 100 techniques going to win every day like almost every time. We're having a debate about whether it's eight or one or point oh one. Right? It's either way technique wins. We agree. Okay, beautiful. In the one of the controversial things you've done in the 90s as a student that you pen, you publicly denied the Armenian genocide, which is the mass murder of over a million Armenians in 1915 and 16 in the Ottoman Empire.

3:48:46You have since then publicly and clearly changed your mind on this. Tell me the process you went through to change your mind. Yeah, so when you're a kid, you're taught a whole bunch of things. That's the software that we talked about earlier, right? So cultural software is media, family, friends, social media, etc. And so growing up in any tribe, whether it's a religious tribe or an ethnic tribe, you're going to get indoctrinated into that tribe's way of thinking. So you take a Turkish person who's super progressive, loves Bernie believes with all their heart and peace. And you tell them something about Kurds, and they'll say, oh no, not those guys, they're terrible and evil and we have to do what we do to them.

3:49:35You see, that's the tribe taking over, right? And so you tell any religious person what's wrong with the other religions that like, oh yeah, yeah, that's totally true. You get to their religion, tribe takes over, know how dairy I'm offended, right? So I grew up with Turkish propaganda. So I'll tell you a couple of funny instances of it. When we were kids, we'd go to Turkish America, in the day parade, like 10 or 12 years old, it's in the middle of New York. As I grew up in Jersey, that's why I got in all those fights. And we would chant in Turkish, Turkey is the biggest country. There's no other country that's even big.

3:50:13And I was like, this is crazy. I'm like, Dad, isn't this crazy? America's big, China's big. Why are we chanting this non -sensical chant, right? So that's the beginning of beginning to realize your indoctrinated. I'm in college, and I read about some a battle that the Ottoman Empire lost. And I'm like, that can't be, right? The Turks have only lost one war, World War One, right? And then I was like, oh my god, I'm an idiot. I got taught that in third grade in Turkey. Of course, that's not true.

3:50:43That's and so on the Armenian genocide, I read the Turkish version. And the Turkish version has all of these evidence, right? So it's real in that it exists, but here I'll give you a great example of it. I think it was Colonel Chester, some random American military guy after World War One. And he says about the Armenians after the mass march, the forced marches. He says they return to the area fat and entirely unmascored. Okay, I'm like, hey, that's an American colonel that's saying that. So that's obviously true. You see, they didn't happen, right? Or at least in the way the Armenians say, now as a grown -up, I look at it and I go, are you kidding me?

3:51:25That guy's obviously trying to get a contract with the Turkish government, right? Nobody returns from a forced march fat and entirely unmascored, right? So that's propaganda. And so and that one was so indoctrinated that it was tough to let go. So in at Panai, right? Zan, Opad, etc. And then over the course of time. And so Anna and I disagree on things from time to time. And we've been co -hosting now for she's been at the young Turks for 18 years and co -hosting for almost 18. And so she's Armenian. And by the way, I love America. I mean, look, we came to America because we landed hope and opportunity.

3:52:07That's part of why fights so hard for the average American for the American idea. So here's a Turk and an Armenian doing a show together and it becomes the number one online news show. That's the beauty of America, right? So she's telling me things and we're having some on -air discussions about it, etc. And then it just dawned on me like, no, this was this two was obviously propaganda. So at that point, once you realize that it becomes easier. That's why I'm trying to unplug people from the matrix because once you realize this propaganda, oh my God, it gets infinitely easier to start telling what's true or not true.

3:52:44So maybe by way of advice, how do you know when you're diluted by propaganda? How do you know you're not believing a kind of, how do you know when you're not plugged into the matrix? When you're plugged into the matrix? You have to keep testing it against objective reality. Okay, they said something. Did it happen or did it not happen? So here's an easy one. Alex Jones for a long time, especially under Obama kept saying, they're going to put us on free Maccabts. I tell you, there's a stomach on the free Maccabts. I never put us out. I'm going to let us out. I know it. I know it for sure. Right?

3:53:17Nobody's been in a free Maccabts. No, Obama left. There was no free Maccabts. So what I asked like for the right -wing conspiracy guys, guys, has any of their things ever come true? Like they always say all these crazy things that never ever happen. So the third time it doesn't happen, can you please start to wonder maybe I'm on the wrong side? Maybe. But that's not just for right -wingers. That's easy. Right? But it's also for mainstream media. And that's where I get the biggest pushback. And that's where, because my tribe is what the kids call PMC, professional management class. Okay. They're curious.

3:53:56You go up the ladder. You have this route, that route, et cetera. And so for that class, the status quo is pretty good. So when Biden gives you 15 % change, you're like, what else do you want? That's amazing. He just course corrected a little bit. Now it's perfect. Right? But for the average guy who needs 100 % change, not 15, they look at it at 15 % and everybody's declaring him a hero. Right? So those are the hardest guys to get through on. And those are the guys who get most mad at me, not the right -wingers, the establishment. That's why I'm nails on a chalkboard for them because I'm on the left, but I call out their crap and their marketing and propaganda.

3:54:43And that's why I mentioned earlier, no one probably, now he might not even consciously know it. But no one dislikes Bernie more than Obama. Because if Bernie got in office, he'd embarrass Obama by doing a lot more change. And Obama told us the change wasn't possible. You could only get 5%. And so if Bernie does 50 % then Obama's humiliated and his record and his legacy is ruined. Right? So I don't think he makes that conscious decision. Right? But it's subconscious. It's a way of thinking. So if you're watching Morning Joe, test him. He says something that Biden is for $15 minimum wage when Biden takes it out of the bill, know that Morning Joe was lying to you.

3:55:29He says that Biden said he was for the public option, but he never even proposed it. When Morning Joe still defends him and you see an objective reality, Biden didn't actually propose that bill. You know that they're lying to you. Test it against objective reality. Did it actually happen or didn't it? I mean, there's some of that, just still made some of the conspiracy theories. Do you think there's some value to the conspiracy theories that come from the right, but actually more so come from the anti -establishment? I mean, for me, there's a lot that raised a bit of a question. A lot of them could probably be explained by corporatism and the military industrial complex.

3:56:11But there's also a lot of them can be explained by creepiness and shadiness in human nature. Epstein is an example of that. There's a lot of ways to explain Epstein, including the basic creepiness of human nature. But there could be bigger explanations than lying it. So sometimes when we have long thoughtful conversations like this, I'll say it depends a lot. And then people get frustrated by that. But then you're frustrated by the world because it depends. So conspiracy theories. If you say, are they all right or are they all wrong? Already the question is wrong. So it depends. What is the conspiracy theory?

3:56:54So if it's some of the absurd ones we've mentioned here, that's easily disproven. On the other hand, there's a conspiracy theory about JFK's assassination. Which one is the conspiracy theory that Lee Harvey on's wall from like 12 miles away shot a magic bullet that went like this and hit like 13 people and came out a Kennedy's brain. Or that the government might have wanted to cover up an assassination of the president for whatever reason. Okay, come on. Now I'm of course doing hyperbole and like the JFK enthusiast will be like, no, it did the bullet didn't actually go like this. It didn't actually hit 13 people.

3:57:34I'm I'm kidding guys. Okay. But in terms of is that conspiracy theory real that JFK was not just killed by Lee Harvey Oswald almost certainly. Right. And so if you read real books with tons of information, the most likely culprit is Alan Dulles, the head of the CIA that he fired back when there was a deep state. There actually was a deep state. They did coups against other countries leaders all the time, but they tell us, oh, they wouldn't do it to our own leader. But remember, they's not the CIA. He'd left the CIA already. Right. So he get, you know, so I don't know if it was X CIA guys. I don't know if the mob was involved.

3:58:17I don't know any of those details, but I know some things that are obvious. That bullet didn't magically hit him from over there. Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald. Jack Ruby was a mobster who on the record had said that he hated Kennedy. All of a sudden he became patriotic overnight and shot the assailant who was unguarded. Maybe less likely. Okay. So let's speed up though. So my point is, yes, some conspiracy theories could be true. It depends on objective reality. Right. You get to Epstein. Again, I always do it ahead of time because I want you to test me and see does it match objective reality.

3:58:58So I said the minute that it happened, you'll have your answer based on whether the video in the hallway worked or not. If the video in the hallway works, there'll be just as many conspiracy theories, but it'll show actually who went in and didn't go in. Okay. But if the video in the hallway doesn't work, they definitely killed okay. So a couple of days later, oh, the video in that particular hallway happened to not be working. And the guards both happened to be on break at the same time. And the most notorious petophile criminal in the country happened to be unguarded. And that is the one time he decided to hang himself.

3:59:40Listen, man, the only way you believe that is if you got mainstream media to get you to believe that the word that the minute the phrase conspiracy theory is mentioned, you have to shut off your mind. And you have to believe whatever the media tells you. Yeah. Well, it's interesting you just mentioned. Do you think the CIA is not grown in power versus? No, no, they've greatly waned in power. Interesting. So so in the old days, the CIA has an actual deep state. And because the country was run by a bunch of families, right? So you go to Yale, the Skull and Bones thing was real, right? And you go to Harvard, you go this and half the, look at the Dallas family, right?

4:00:20Half of them going to government, other half going to banking, why are the Central American countries called banana republics? Because we, we'd America did a coup against one of those countries because a banana company wanted it. Okay? Because they're like, how dare you charge whatever you want for your natural resource? We American corporations have the right to all of your natural resources at the lowest possible rate. Alan, get rid of these guys. Okay? And Alan would. And so and sometimes they would go extra judicial, right? Like potentially with the JFK assassination. So now and by the way, you can pissed off a J Edgar Hoover, you was just going to put a bullet in your head and we were done with you.

4:01:06Okay? Fred Hampton, among others. So but nowadays, that's not how the world works. So a small number of families cannot control a country and an economy this size. New people pop up. Well, Mark Zuckerberg wasn't part of those families. Elon Musk wasn't part of those families. Neither was Bezos, right? For you to believe those conspiracy theories, you have to think that Bezos on Musk, et cetera, were like, oh, you guys are still running the country? No problem. Go ahead. I'm not going to do that. Right? So now we've gotten into a system where it's the invisible hand of the market that runs the country.

4:01:47But unfortunately, only for the powerful. And so it's more of a machine. And they don't do, and this is super interesting and ties to what we were talking about earlier, Lex, which is that they don't do political assassinations anymore. They do character assassinations. That's the needle in the haystack thing. So and if you do an assassination of someone, you build up their status. They become a martyr and you build up their cause. But if you do a character assassination, you smear the cause with the person and the cause goes down, not up. So the market found a better way of getting rid of agitating outsiders.

4:02:28Well, that's one of the conspiracy theories of Epstein is that he's a front for like a CIA. And they're getting data on people like creepy, petafile, kind of data that can use to threaten character assassination. And they put them in this way, put the people in their pockets. So look, we're not in on it. So there's no way we can know, right? But I just always go back to logic. So he has dirt on a lot of powerful people. He dies in a way that is an obvious murder and not a suicide. And then you begin to think who would have enough power to be able to get away with that crime. And that is a very limited number of either people or governments, right?

4:03:24So that's probably your answer without knowing anything that's internal. Yeah, that's crazy. We don't have the list of clients. What is the best way to achieve stability and peace in Israel and Palestine in the current situation? And in the next five, 10 years, if people wanted to get to peace, it's relatively straightforward. There's already a deal that was negotiated. The Saudis agreed to it. And they're an important player in this game. The Palestinians and the Israelis have initially agreed to it, even Hamas has kind of agreed to it. That deal exists and it's just waiting on the shelf to get done, right?

4:04:06And it's pretty straightforward. Israel gets out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but they keep it x percentage. It used to be 4 % that it went up to 6%. It's probably a higher number now. The Palestinians keep losing leverage as we go. Right? So you remember how hard it was to get a deal on Ukraine, I thought. That's a very complicated one. Israel is much more straightforward. Get the hell out of the occupying territories. Keep some like those settlements are the worst thing. They're cancer. But anyway, I don't know. But there is an answer to the settlements and it's probably that Israel keeps them, even though that drives me crazy.

4:04:43No right of return for Palestinians. They'll be symbolic right of return for a couple of families. And so Palestinians go, oh, no way. Guys, you have no leverage. Take the deal. Take the deal. Okay. So you're not going to get a right of return. Israel is not going to allow millions of Palestinians to go and vote in Israel. It would end the Jewish state. You have to get to a practical solution. So honestly, the number one person blocking it now is then Yahoo. It's not even that's obvious. That's that doesn't take a lot of courage to say that. He says publicly, I don't want a Palestinian state. I'm against a two -state solution.

4:05:19He's been monstrous. He's one of the worst terrorists of my lifetime. So that's easy. The right wing of Israel has lost its mind. So the Smotrich and the Ben Gavir is openly talking about ethnic cleansing and driving them into other Arab countries. I mean, this is a definition of ethnic cleansing. So, but is like, I know that the Arabs are going to take the deal. Saudi Arabia cannot wait to take the deal because they just want to get business going. Right. He's in Khamas. He takes the deal. So I had ever solution where you don't need a Khamas. But yes, Hamas would definitely take the deal. Hamas already publicly said that they would even get rid of that Israel doesn't have a right to exist.

4:06:03But we, there's so much propaganda in American media. It's maddening. Right. So in this idea that you don't deal with Hamas, it's so dumb. So the reason it's dumb is you don't negotiate with your friends. You negotiate with your enemies. Well, I don't want to negotiate with them. I don't like them. Well, then you're not going to get to peace. Right. But still there is a path that doesn't include Hamas. So make a deal with Fata that runs the best West Bank. Then they get right now Fata went into Gaza Strip. They won't be able to manage it because they don't have enough credibility. They're mainly seen as in kuhuts with the occupiers, whereas Hamas is hardcore and fighting against the occupiers.

4:06:47But if Fata delivers a piece, not only a piece deal, but a Palestinian state, then they come in as heroes. So you make the deal with them. You let them run the Gaza Strip and you empower them to drive out Hamas. That way they do your dirty work for you in a sense, right. But good because Hamas, the terrorist organization, they're not helpful. And especially if the Palestinians get a state, the violence has to stop immediately. That's the whole point. The trade is you get a state, Israel gets safety in peace. So no more rockets that Israel. No more rockets. If you do any other rockets when an Israel does the barbaric thing they just did, even I would say, hey brother, we had a piece deal.

4:07:34Okay. So if you violate a piece deal and you do a bomb, they're going to do a bomb and their bomb is much larger. Okay. So that and by the way, it cannot work. It already has worked. The Israel already did it with Egypt. So Egypt was a hundred times Hamas. Egypt gathered all the Arab armies and actually physically invaded Israel when Israel could lose and they did it several times. And like at the time, all not just the right like the war hawks, but most people thought there's no way Egypt will keep that piece deal. Oh, there's suckers. We're giving them the Sinai Peninsula back and then they're just going to keep bombing and attacking us.

4:08:18There's as I'm in a single bomb from Egypt since the peace deal. Peace deals work. War gets you more war. Peace deals get your peace. And if you should never, this is true of all of life. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. So if you're saying, well, I'm not positive that a piece deal is going to be perfect and and 12 more rockets might be fired. Well, brother, what's what do we have now? Right? We have endless rockets now. If Israel's supposed to be a safe haven for juice and I get it and I want it. Okay. Then become a safe haven. The way that you're a safe haven is stop the occupation.

4:08:58It's not complicated. And the reason they're not, let's be honest, the reason the right wing government of Israel is not stopping the occupation is because they want to take more and more land. And so they have throughout time taken way more of the West Bank than they had originally. And now Netanyahu is saying, I want a corridor at the in the middle of Gaza. And I want a corridor at the border of Egypt. Now we're back to occupying Gaza physically let alone through power and et cetera. So BB has to go definitely. What's the role of US in making a peace deal like that happened? It's going to sound outlandish.

4:09:44But I can get you a ceasefire almost overnight if BB's gone. And because the Israeli negotiators have said publicly, please not publicly got leaked and it was in the Israeli press. You have to give us a little bit of wiggle room. If you don't give us a little bit of wiggle room, obviously they're not going to do the deal. And he's like, I know. Right? That's why he's not giving them the wiggle room. So don't ask for landing Gaza. Get the hell out of Gaza. You're a ceasefire. That's the easy part. So the hard part is the occupation ending the occupation. But even that I can get it to you in two months as long as Israel actually wants a deal.

4:10:23So go to an election, get rid of Netanyahu, put in, you know, Benny Gantz is Benny Gantz an angel. No, he's the one that ordered all the bombings of Gaza to begin with. Right? He's, look, I Benny Gantz has got massive war crimes on his record. So don't worry. He's not a softy. Okay. But he's not my favorite guy in the world to say the least. But Benny Gantz can do a peace deal if he wants to. So look, only one group of people can actually settle this. Well, it's actually two groups of people. One is the Israeli population. You've ordered someone who wants to do a peace deal. You'll get a peace deal.

4:11:01Okay. Number two is the American president. So if I'm the American president, I'm saying a hypothetical, right? Or any American president that actually wants to get a peace deal done. You just say I'm going to cut the funding. Israel will do the deal immediately. They don't say they want to cut the funding because APAC gives them $100 million. It's not complicated. Not one percent complicated. Yeah. So Lex, tell me this. Okay. So if the US president said, I'm going to cut the funding. Do you think that it might have a giant problem for Netanyahu? Might it hurt his government? My day, have to go to an election.

4:11:38Would Israeli politicians, let alone the population begin to really, really worry that they're going to lose an enormous source of funding and weapons? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So why wouldn't we use our leverage? It's crazy not to use our leverage. Yeah. And this is where we go back to the steel amount of Trump. It feels like he's the only one crazy enough to use that leverage. But crazy, I mean, good kind of sense. Bold enough, not giving a shit about convention, not giving a shit about pressures and money. And influence and all that kind of stuff. Yes, but with the biggest asterisk in the history of the world, which is 12 % chance he does that.

4:12:19And that's great. But in huge chance, he does the opposite. And he goes, let's call it 80 again. 80%. Oh, yeah. Miriam wanted me to give Israel, West Bank to Israel. So you have it guys now. You just occupy the whole thing forever. Okay. Giant war. Oh, yeah, I'm going to prove how tough I am. I'm going to New Quran. Oh, no, what are you doing? What are you doing? Like this? Trump is a massive risk. He's an enormous amount of risk. If you were running a company and not a country, would you hire Trump as your CEO? Everyone watching just screamed inside their heads. No. Okay. You would never think take that kind of risk with your company.

4:12:58You got an 80 % chance the guy's going to blow up the company. You're no way, no way. And you know it too. If you're especially if you're a businessman, you know you're not going to hire that loose cannon to run your company. It's it's unacceptable risk. But you're not wrong. We talked about it earlier. But as part of that risk, there's a sliver in there that he could accidentally do the right thing. We talked a lot about hope in this conversation, zooming out. What gives you hope about the future of this whole thing of humanity, not just the United States of us humans on earth? So why am I center left and not center right?

4:13:33It gets that question. So you look at the polling, not just here in America, but in almost any country. And it almost always breaks out to 2 ,3rds or 1 ,3rds. Right? 2 ,3rds of the people say, let's be empathetic. Let's share. Let's be let's do equality, justice. Let's be fair. Right? 1 ,3rd goes no. Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me. Okay. That's just the nature of humanity. And so and usually the same 3rd goes no change. And the other 2 ,3rds go, well, some change. So because if you don't do any change, you're you're never going to get to the right answer. For the wisdom of the crowd to work for free markets to work for everything to work, you have to keep changing because the times change and the culture changes and the situation changes.

4:14:22Right? So that's why there's amendments in the Constitution because you need to be able to change the document from time to time. Be careful with it. Right? But you need to allow for an avenue for change. So now why does the 1 ,3rd keep winning in so many different places? Because they have more money and power. And by the way, if you're more selfish, you're more likely to get more money and power. Right? And I wish that weren't the case, but it is. And these are not blanket rules. They're on average. So that 3rd winds up winning in so many circumstances. But the bottom line is we are a species that requires consent.

4:15:04So I mean, I'm a stone cold atheist. So I don't think we're kind of like apes. I think we are apes. Okay. And so and all the scientists out there are going, well, of course we are. Everyone else is going, that's crazy. Okay. So when you look at it as a species, different species reacting different ways. snakes have no empathy because it's not in their DNA. And that's why we have a sense of what a snake does. Right? So for good news is for higher level apes like us, but nobos, chimpanzees and humans, we all roughly want consent. So a chimpanzee, for example, has a violent reputation and they are violent.

4:15:52And unfortunately, we're pretty close to them. But what people don't know is a leader doesn't win through violence, especially for banobos. They lead, they win by picking lice off of other chimpanzees by going and doing favors, going to a hunt, getting food and giving it to someone else. Because what they're gathering is the consent of the government. And that's how you become the alpha. You don't do it through physical dominance. You do it through consent. So that's how we're hardwired. That's in our DNA. That two thirds in the long run will win. And that and we will have empathy. We will have change.

4:16:28And that's the hope that we're all looking for. Hope has got the numbers. It seems like. Yeah. And in fact, one more thing, Lex, look at history. Hope and change always win. And so again, conservatives don't catch feelings. There is a need for conservatives because you have to balance things out. If you just had even though wonderful two thirds, that still wouldn't be the ideal system. You need, you need a Winston Churchill if you're in the middle of the world, were to you need someone to say regulating, you know, six inspections of the elevators is too many, right? So you need that balance and conservatives have a role and it's a really important role.

4:17:11But having said that, they're assigned to losing throughout history because they're fighting on losing ground. A conservative says no change, but the world is constantly changing. So they're destined to lose. That's why the founding fathers won against the British monarchy. That's why the civil rights movement won. They didn't win overnight. It took them a hundred years to get equal rights, let alone pass slavery, right? So we won on women's rights. We won on gay rights. We keep winning. But every snapshot in time makes it feel like we're losing. There's a bad guy in charge. We are living under corporate rule, etc.

4:17:52But in the long tide of history, change always wins. So the empathetic generally speaking left wing. But again, don't worry about the titles, right? People get obsessed with the labels. The two -thirds that's empathetic. That includes a lot of right wingers, right? You win at the end in history every single time. So we fight forward. We, we, we, we're tough when we need to be. We need that willpower to win any fight, right? But we're civil and respectful to the other side because they are us. So progressives all the time. Let me say, look, and I, this is like the ending of my book, which is we, for conservatives, you have a lot of empathy for inside the wagons.

4:18:39So conservatives are great to their family, generally speaking, to their community, to their church, to anyone that's inside the wagons. But they have, they set up electric fences and barbed wire around their wagons. So if you're on the outside, you're the others, and you're going to get electrified. And it's constantly right? And so I like to think the left wing has wider wagons. So we view the world as more us and not you. But the good news of that is if we win, we're not going to do Medicare for only the left. Right? We're going to do Medicare for all. You're all going to get universal health care.

4:19:18We're going to do higher wages for all. The right wing is not going to be left out. And if we're, and like, I'm going to tell you a fun story. It's, it's about my family. And, and I'm sure that parts of it are apocryphal from, because it's from like 500 years ago. But, but it gives you a sense of the, the old Mark Twain quote, if it's really Mark Twains of change happens really gradually, and then all of a sudden. So my mom's last name in Turkish is Yawasha. It means slowly. So we're name even in Turkish. And so one day we're walking past the mosque in Istanbul, when I'm a kid. And it says on the mosque, Yawasha.

4:20:06Well, what is this? Okay. So it's a small little mosque. We go inside. And my dad starts asking them mom questions. Okay. So he says, why is the, why is the mosque name that? And he said, well, you don't know. And he's because my dad said my mom, my wife's name is, last name is Yawasha. He's like, oh my God. And he's like, your ancestor was the admiral of the Ottoman Navy when they conquered Constantinople. Okay. So grandpa from five, six hundred years ago came up with the idea. So you can't ever conquer a Constantinople because there's a giant chain in the underneath the boss fris all the ships get stuck on the chain.

4:20:47There's cannons on both sides. Have to ancient navies in the world are at the bottom of the boss fris. Right. So it hasn't been conquered over a thousand years. Nobody thinks it can be conquered. Grandpa comes out with the idea of, why don't we build giant wooden planks overland and grease them and pass our fleet overland onto the other side. Everybody goes because whenever anybody poses a new idea no matter how logical it is, they go, oh, it's impossible. No way. It's going to work. Oh, you're crazy. This is an uncomfortable city. What are you guys even doing? Every day, I met the congressman comes up to a grandpa and says, all right, how's your plan to do this project going?

4:21:26And grandpa says slowly. Any names of commanders slowly. And one night after the whole thing's done, they passed the entire Ottoman fleet over the land, wind up in the middle of the boss fris and the Holy Roman Empire concedes. They surrender because change happens really gradually and then all of a sudden. Good story. Well, Zheng, thank you for fighting for that change for many years now, for over two decades now. And thank you for talking today. Appreciate it, Lex. Thank you for having the conversation. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Zheng Hugo. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

4:22:13And now, let me leave you some words from Hanahar and totalitarianism is never content of rule by external means, namely through the state and a machinery of violence. Thanks to its peculiar ideology and the role assigned to it in the apparatus of coercion, totalitarianism has discovered a means of dominating and terrorizing human beings from within. Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time.