Life in Charms with Clare Smyth

0:01I'm Anoushka Dukas and I've been designing jewell for 30 years and collecting charms for as long as I can remember. In this podcast, I will be asking a series of extraordinary women to tell me their life story in seven charms. Welcome to my podcast, My Life in Seven Charms. Described by Gordon Ramsay as firm, hard-arsed and bloody brilliant. I'm absolutely thrilled to have a very special guest with me today. the first female chef and only the second ever chef to hold three Michelin stars and three hats from the Good Food Guide at the same time. From humble beginnings cooking onions and potatoes on her family farm in Northern Ireland to opening her award-winning restaurant, Core, in London's Notting Hill, she pursued her dreams with passion, grit and that unmistakable precision you find in her kitchens.

0:59She ran off to England at just 16 and the rest, as they say, is history. Claire Smythe, welcome to your life in Seven Charms. So your first charm, you obviously loved riding. So I guess this charm is all about your horse riding. So I've really designed it as a three-dimensional hat made of yellow gold inside but set with black diamonds in multi kind of pavé shapes and it has a little gold strap which will move because I'm fanatical about the things if they'll actually work. Beautifully polished on the inside so it'd be a lovely charm and it clearly is about riding but can you just tell me a little bit about growing up and and your and your childhood yeah I mean horse riding was really important to me show jumping in particular right and I mean we were a group on a farm in Northern Ireland and we competed you know I would have had two ponies at a time oh wow and it was quite a lot of work exercising them competing training them and you know my brother and I both rode and competed against each other even though he's quite a lot older than me but it was just a big part of my life and childhood and I think if I hadn't been a chef I would have been a show jumper yeah we were quite into it you know and I was quite competitive and it was I always think back on my childhood and think why did I you know end up the way I did and then I do think you know people think about a male dominated world well in horse riding you compete against men equal and so I think I grew up in an environment where I never really thought about girls and boys being not equal or different because I competed alongside my brother yeah who was better he was that bit older but people used to get upset when he didn't let me win but but we used to win a lot and we were very much that was what we did and it was always about that competition and being the best as well so I think that age of always succeeding and that was important to me and and you you grew up in Northern Ireland were you was that tough at that time with all the troubles and that were you aware of that I was and I again I just I think because I grew up with it I just didn't know any different and it wasn't until I had moved to England And so I realised that, you know, police stations all covered in Bob Pop, why you don't see soldiers with guns walking down the street.

3:45Although I lived in the countryside, it didn't impact me so much. We were very aware of it around us. And I remember sitting in school and hearing, you know, the nearest town get blown up. No one was hurt because those days I think they did it for more rebuilding those towns. but it was part of growing up. A bit of an odd thing when I think about it now and how strange it is and how good that it has changed so much because it's just the most bizarre thing to literally your neighbours. It makes no sense at all. But so extraordinary that you didn't realise how strange it was until you moved away.

4:27But was your mother a good cook? Yes. Yeah, it was very much the foundation, I guess, of knowing how to cook, eat, appreciate food and appreciate how it was, how it's produced as well. The work, you know, the 365 days of the year, 24 hours a day, often, you know, lambing, seasonal sheep, you know, you have, you're up all night checking. Yeah. And that just, that never stops with farming, that responsibility. But it was really the artistic side. Yeah. that took my attention and it was Michelin stars really that that because I was quite creative well you're creative at school though creative in terms because I'm fascinated I really want to talk about this the creative process so I'm so interested because as a jeweler my my process is very different to most because I didn't train so I'm like okay I'm really not very good at drawing but I'm absolutely clear in my head what it's got to be so I'm kind of fascinated by what your process is in creating a new dish I try to use well I try to use humble ingredients now coming from a luxury background in uh you know through Michelin starred restaurants yeah worked in for 15 years before I opened my own so I wanted to be uh challenged to be creative with something that's a bit more say humble like the signature dishes of potato right now yeah and it is that thing about can I take something and turn it into something spectacular with my creativity and also to have a connection to people to really mean something and that connection is the most powerful thing that I love to play nods to culture you know you've got an onion dish it's cheese and onion but it's very beautifully put together but the bit about the beautifully put together because I know beautifully put together because John took me for our wedding anniversary.

6:26So I absolutely know how beautiful it is. But how, I mean, do you kind of draw it first? Do you sketch it? Do you just play with the potato and the moss and the, you know, how do you go about it? I used to draw the dishes. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. I used to, when I worked for Ellen Ducasse, when I was working in Monaco, I would think a lot about the dishes and because it wasn't my restaurant and it wasn't my input I used to draw everything and write down all my ideas in a scrapbook. Right and then present to him? No there's just no way that would ever happen you know it's fair enough it's someone else's vision for there so I kept used to keep them all for myself until I had that outlet of being head chef and then start to develop my own dishes and then they obviously take a complete transformation from the idea to the actual dish.

7:20Now, in my mind, I very much have a bank of flavor bank. I think that's something that's really important. You taste, taste, taste everything all the time. I'm very, very curious. It's like this palette that I have to be able to use. I'll think, right, well, that flavor could work with that, or I'll put that with that. And it's years and years of tasting good, bad, everything, and building up that almost that library or in your new palette and thinking I'll put those together so it's it's both those flavors that you're trying to achieve and the way something looks and I quite like nature you know I love flowers like flowers are just something I love the different forms and colors so I think it's like trying to arrange something to come back to nature to its natural environment so interesting um and you in terms of kind of flavors is there anything, I'm sure there must be, but do you occasionally think actually that'll work really well together and actually when you put it together it's just disgusting or is that not a thing?

8:23No it's not a thing. Yeah I mean you know it's about levels yeah you know and I think flavours, I like elegance you know I like things that are layered and layered and layered so I think it's you know when you think of it as sort of classical music there's something that's lots and lots of parts playing together in harmony. And that's like the ultimate food to me. I'm not someone that's, one of my friends calls it dudes cooking food, you know, where it's like meat and sauce. Dudes cooking food. Yeah, meat and sauce, meat and sauce, and everything's like bam, bam, bam. Yeah, okay, it's great. You know, I mean, there's a lot of that.

8:59And it's like course after course after course. It's like, it's too much. I prefer elegance and to build through the meal and to have a nice procession all the way through it. I love what you just said about music because one of your charms, you said it was really important, it was two musical notes which can move. Quite challenging, I've got to say. I'm like, okay, how am I going to do that in a charm? But I love all my charms to move. So, you know, actually, I was like, this is actually quite a challenge. But it's very difficult to describe. But I've seen it with a treble clef at the beginning.

9:34But it's going to have to have gold wires coming from the treble clef. gold wires kind of in a wave and then it's got two notes in black diamonds and and set into set into black and gold and actually there is a way on the other side so that they can move along the wires but so in fact when you pick it up you should be able to you should be able to move them but it is a challenge just tell me music because obviously music is really important I remember going and and in the restaurant the music is very specific and I'm kind of like tell me about that yeah I think I try to create an atmosphere so that it's everything about the experience and music is a very important part of the experience of when people go out through Michelin Star people can think what's really intimidating and to me it's like I need to get rid of all of that yeah you know anything that people consider is pretentious because you just want people to have a good time feel at home feel connected to the food there's some kind of connection nostalgia they feel comfortable there's a good tune on the team were really friendly there's not words on the menu that people don't understand and the other thing I thought was I read that when you go and do talks or you're talking on stage you get them to put Maria by Blondie what's that about I like I do have a few walk-on tunes and I do and then I like the Pretenders as well Brass in Pocket that's another favorite tune yeah it's like those life you know it's kind of like when you work really hard and you start to do well in life yeah you know there's those girl tunes they're like you know it's like yeah you know I'm doing well I'm gonna yeah I'm gonna use it yeah and I think those are yeah they're good good tunes um but this is probably a good place to just to talk a bit about um about music in the restaurant and I and I I think I'm right in saying that you like a very silent kitchen I I like perfection and I think that you must have silence and concentration it should be like a ballet no one should speak out of turn or bang things or you know drop things so we have this service that we go into and it's just complete sight you know it's much less stressful everyone can communicate at a level you know they say something someone says yes back no one like drop something or banging spoons on pans it's just just nothing and just we focus we concentrate you put something down gently and it's a much nicer working environment.

12:18And does it take new members of staff quite a time to get used to that because that are you very unusual in that respect or have things changed? Things have changed quite a lot right and kitchens are very different places today than they used to be yeah but you know yeah I remember when I was working with Gordon when I kind of started to change things from my own sort of way or I grew into my own shoes a little bit It used to feel a little bit unnerved when he came into the kitchen. It was so quiet. Yeah, I bet he was. Completely out of place. I bet he was. What, just talking about Gordon, because as I said to you, I definitely spoke to a lot of these chefs.

13:01And so I'm kind of interested to know what, maybe it wasn't him, maybe it was one of the other extraordinary people you've worked with, but kind of what was your memory of the worst thing that anybody said to you? one of those chefs you don't have to tell me which one but you can yeah I mean like Gordon was fantastic always really good to me when I was I remember the story because it's actually probably you'll recognize this kind of story um I was doing a trial shift and I was 17 years old in a London Michelin-starred restaurant and I hadn't quite turned 18 but I was turning 18 soon and the chef said to me, well, you know, I'll give you a job but we'll start you in the pastry because you'll probably leave anyway because you won't handle it.

13:52And he had said, what did I want to be? And I said, well, I want to be like the chef of a top London restaurant or hotel. And he said, well, that's probably not going to happen because you're a woman. And so I didn't go to work there. But that guy was a better supplier. He ended up having his own veg company. He was a veg supplier. And then ended up supplying me when I first took over at restaurant Gordon Ramsay as the head chef. And I was 28 years old. I came back from France and I was the first woman to run a three Michelin star kitchen in London. He was my veg supplier. Did he remember saying that?

14:29No, he didn't. And I've never told him the story. And I sat down in front of him when I came back from France and he was so shocked. And he was like, you know, like, what, a woman? I was like 28 and he was just shocked that, yeah, but it was just those things. So I don't really, I think things like that fueled me in my life. And I actually thought to myself then, you've got one Michelin star, you can get three. I went then to work for Gordon and he was incredibly supportive. Was he? Incredibly supportive. From the beginning? From the beginning. great mentor and you know often being the only woman in the kitchen he just recognized talent

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16:03I've got your second charm as a knife, gorgeous knife. And you sent me a picture of this actually, so it was really helpful. I hope I've done it justice. so I've made it in white gold with exactly very heavily polished blade not too sharp because I don't want it to hurt you if it's around your neck but it's really dimensional and the handle has got different sized black diamonds, different size because it gives it a really lovely texture and the end And is also just in white gold with a little bit of texture on the handle. But what's the significance of the knife? I think it's kind of ironic. You've made it with black diamonds and it's beautiful because it is the least expensive knife.

17:03I had to do it with black diamonds. Yes. I mean, and yet it's the most valuable knife that I have. And I have knives that are made by hand with, you know, in Japan, one of the top five, you know, sort of knife makers has made me my own bespoke knives. But that knife had cost probably about three pound fifty at the time. But I've had it my whole career. So it's been everywhere with me and there's almost no blade left on it. And it was a thing about respect. When I was working in Monaco, I left it there by accident when I did my trial and the sous chef was Japanese. and I'd been working in rough kitchens and it was a bit push and shove but he gave it to me and he had had it professionally, it's a really inexpensive knife, had it professionally sharp and tied up with a piece of paper, two little strings tying together and put it into a little vacuum packed bag and when he saw me like three months later he gave it to me and said you left this here and I just thought what how refreshing to be like that, to be so respectful.

18:03I also love your description of the way he wrapped it and put it so Japanese, so perfect. So do you still use this knife? It is, yeah, it's in my drawer. I still use it. Very rarely because it is so, like, there's nothing left of it. And did you buy that as you arrived in England or did you have that as a child? This would have been my journey with me since I was at restaurant Gordon Ramsay from about the age of 22 through Monaco till now. Wow. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's such a lovely thing. And as you say, a cheap knife, but precious. So we're making precious. So your next charm, well, that was really obvious, obviously, that it's an apple core.

18:54And such a joy to make this. So I see it as exactly that. A three-dimensional apple core made of very textured yellow gold so that the core part is not totally shiny. Two little brown diamonds, which are the pips. And then red rubies, pavé at the top and bottom. and it's just got a little gold leaf that moves as if it's just come off the tree. So clearly that's for your restaurant core. Tell me a bit about why core? Why is it cool core? And you've touched a bit on the philosophy behind the simplicity of the food, but it's not as simple as you make out. But why core? It was, it's hard to find a name for something.

19:58I think it's always very hard. I was racking my brains. I often come up with things when I can't sleep at night because I'm thinking so much about it. And it came to me at night when I was supposed to be sleeping overnight. I'll mull things over in my brain and weigh it up. And I'm in a difficult situation and need to find an answer. and it was core because it was means heart in lots of languages right and it was the core the heart the seed of something new right so it's very much about that new beginning that that heart and soul um and then it yeah it became core so and and your kind of logo is the thumbprint isn't it Yes, yeah.

20:46It's one of the things that has really come through now in the restaurant is that identity. Yes. And I love natural forms. So we see patterns in everything, whether it's in leaves and in obviously trees. And that was an important thing. But obviously thumb bit print is unique in the uniqueness of a human being. Every human being is unique and it's that nature and the beauty of nature. and yeah so it became a part of the restaurant and also the bit of the joke was you know always wiping fingerprints off plates yeah I put my fingerprint on it yeah oh you put your fingerprint on it and your the philosophy behind it was was that to go back to simple food but it's not simple yeah so it was um I work because I've been in that world of three Michelin starred restaurants for 15 years solid before I opened court and they were always French and I could write a menu with everything it was required for that but it didn't of course I could do it but it didn't mean anything to me that's someone else's food that's what you do or what people do same thing with the music it's what people do and I thought well that doesn't really mean anything to me and I had a lot of questions that had been bubbling in my career, like what's my style, what does it mean to me, what my connection...

22:10So Britain was, you know, I'm British, I'm not French. Well, I've cooked French, classically French food all my life. I'm like, well, I'm British, so, you know, I grew up eating potatoes every day. We have humble root vegetables and shellfish and fish and this is where an island and all those things really connect with what I had around me and then I started to look at everything like you know silversmiths British silversmiths you know the potteries the all these areas because we're just always buying things with a brand on it you know like you buy the most expensive cutlery with the French name that's what chefs do still do it just but because it's the most expensive why is that sorry to talk but But why do they think that?

22:55It's fine, beautiful, fine things. And that is, I think, is, you know, you typically think that that's what you have to do to get Michelin stars. But actually, it's got nothing to do with it. We had wooden tables, you know, silversmiths from the UK. I designed my own plates. Half of it was as well. Couldn't really afford to buy the most expensive plates. I thought it would be better to actually have my own. So when you look at a plate from core, you know it's core. and having that identity is really important. And so also sustainability, we look at, I always think like economic sustainability and cultural sustainability is really important.

23:31So you'd have like Stoke-on-Trent, you have all these potteries and areas where it's just gone, and all these skills that we're losing, the beautiful silversmiths that we have in this country and the skills stunning, people that make things by hand, I really appreciate. And I thought, well, I've got to support it. I've got to reinvest it, make it cool again. And let's face it, Britain was built off of steel industries and we've just lost it all. And we need to put industries back into those places within Britain. So I'd rather do that, work with those companies like Royal Crown Derby make my plates, and they design plates.

24:10It's a 300-year-old company. It's incredible history. So I still, that's important to me. So the whole, everything, the furniture, everything's made in Britain. or the art is British artists in the restaurant. And it's, yeah, that identity. So when people travel, they know where they are, sense of place is important. Absolutely. I wish everybody was doing that because it's, as you say, silversmithing here is becoming a dying art. I mean, it really is. Such a shame. So one of my kind of questions is, how did you how did you fund it cool because I mean I know a little bit about kitchens and how incredibly expensive they are particularly of the caliber that you need yeah so I was very fortunate in that um Gordon was very supportive of me and uh very few people know this but see I had shares profit shares in Royal Hospital, which is a phenomenally successful restaurant.

25:17So I was able to save an awful lot. And I always thought when I was working, God, if I could own this. This would be all my Christmases. And I was, you know, when I first took over, I became Chef Patron there and Gordon made me a partner. He did that just after he got Bishop's staff, was it? The three? No, because, well, that really was three stars. So I took it over and he said to me, well, you can put your name in the door. I said, well, I don't want to do that. if I'm having shares in this, I want your name in the door. You're the most famous chef in the world. So I'm, so I, you know, and then I decided I want to do my own thing anyway, because I wanted to prove myself, I think, to myself.

25:54Yeah. And then I continued to consult for Gordon for quite a while and build everything into my own business as a consultant. And then he also, he lent me money and sat me down with his accountant, his bank manager. And we had meetings with the banks, He put me all in the right place and incredibly good to me. And so he said, you know, no interest. I don't need anything signed. Just start paying me back in about three years. And and and so I yeah, I was did really well my first year and I paid him everything back in the first year. Wow. Because I mean, I think I've had Angela Hartnett on this on this podcast, actually.

26:38and she said Claire has an amazing ability to look after her staff that's what she's saying that's very nice so I'm like so how do you do that because hospitality is not it doesn't have reputation for that no it's very it gets harder and harder I think as well um you just have to work so hard on them it's really like training invest in them I like looking after people but yeah I'm also quite a practical person I like to get things done yeah so I'm less of the chat, more of the get it done. So speaking of getting it done, so your next charm is obviously the Michelin star. So I have done it exactly the same shape but quite, so when you put your finger into it, it feels like your finger belongs there which I thought was kind of rather lovely for you if you've got your fingerprint.

27:34So it's polished gold on the back with your initials, three stars engraved, and then a combination of kind of red and pink rubies and sapphires, all slightly different shapes, mainly because I think it gives it a bit more life than just having it all red. But for everybody else's purpose, it's clearly a Michelin star. So did you know, at what point in your life did you think, that's what I'm going to do? I want a restaurant or I want to earn three Michelin stars? So I was 14, 15 when I knew I wanted to be a chef when I first found out about Michelin stars. or my head was turned, maybe by, it was first book was Anton Moseman's Cuisine à la carte when he was at the Dorchester and I was looking through lots of five-star hotels, you know, the real glamour.

28:39And that's when I kind of got swept away by the idea of becoming a chef with all these beautiful pictures of food and these people in big tall hats. And that's why it was very much the creative side and I knew I needed to come to London to have that. And then I also learned about Michelin and that sort of grading. And, you know, it's still the most respected grading in the world of professional inspectors. And so I only wanted to work really in three star restaurants because I thought if I can do that and if I can put myself into the most difficult environments, then and I can succeed, then I'll give myself the best chance.

29:21And I never thought, oh, I'll try to get three stars. I just hoped that I would be successful if I worked in the best places. Yeah. Well, clearly you were right. But just as I mentioned, I have no idea what the process is for getting a start. Do you apply or are you – how does it work? I think you can notify them that you're opening a restaurant. Yeah. It's quite a good thing to do. And then they – it's their own guide, so they do what they want, really. And they'll book a table. They'll come in. And you won't have a clue. No, they'll eat. No suspicion? I kind of know quite a lot. Well, you have to be fair, around a few years.

29:59Yeah, but generally, no suspicion. No, no. And actually, you know, often I do miss them as well, because at a three-star level, they'll use international inspectors as well. Right. And you can get expected up to three times a year for, or six times a year, I think it is for a three-star restaurant. Now, if they're very confident in you, that won't happen. But it's a big investment on their part, actually, because they're coming and eating and paying, and the inspectors, and they, I mean I know this because I went to Paris when I was working for Gordon, had a meeting with them, and they can pull out a file of your restaurant and everything is in it, like everything, like this turbot that they ate in 2012 was over seasoned or undercooked, or people writing letters to them, they have a flat fact thing on you, everything.

30:51So their whole job is watching what we're doing. But not just on the night? Yeah, but that's over years, obviously. Yeah, but they'll look at everything around it. People will write letters to Michelin if they're not happy, if they're happy. They'll judge everything on their own merit, on their own criteria. But they keep all of that. And if they start to see something's maybe not right, they'll go and check again. Or if they start to think, well, something's going really right here, we better look at this a little bit more. yeah um and that's all on their own things and they don't talk to you you know sometimes you'll have a conversation sometimes they'll say we have a meeting but it's very rare actually when we won the third star they didn't I didn't speak to them at all and it was online because it was during COVID but it was so quick yeah yeah I mean you opened 2000 yeah so we would have yeah so 27 August 2017, and by January 2021, yeah, we had had it.

31:47Yeah, we got it. Yeah, so we was, you know, which is great, obviously. It was fast, but then, you know, I say that I had spent a long time working at that level previously, and a lot of my team did as well. We had a very, very good team. Like I said, all the luxuries were just, you know, graft and ability, and it was a fresh perspective because people thought I was a bit crazy when I opened because we weren't serving lobster, sautéed fraguer, all those things that you would typically think you would find in a fine dining restaurant and playing a 1940s jazz that no one understands or we weren't doing those things.

32:31No white tablecloths. No white tablecloths. We were doing things... I was doing it not differently because I hate when people say that because no one ever does anything different. Yeah, just my own approach. I mean, I think it connects with me. And then, of course, then it worked. But, you know, I just kept reinvesting the whole time, getting it better and better and better. And I knew the level I needed to be at. So really kicking ourselves. You know, we got the third star, the second star, the first. So we missed the first year because we were just a little bit open too late. So we got the second two stars straight away then the next year.

33:11And, you know. And then COVID. And then COVID hit. Yeah. We were only two years old at that stage. Oh, my God. I got enough money to pay back the bank loan. What am I going to do? Yeah. But we, yeah, we managed all through that. But it is that thing about always looking at yourself and what you're doing and thinking, how can I polish, polish, polish? and we just kept polishing it and polishing it, really looking at it ourselves, because I knew, I was thinking, that's not quite right, I'm not happy with that, and just kept going until it came. How long have you been married for now? Ten years coming up, it'll be ten years next year.

33:49And how did you, I'm fascinated how you even met, how you had time to meet. Yeah, so we met, it was funny actually saying about time, we met in a bar in South Kensington, and he got my number. It's a bar that's not on there. Hang on, you were in the bar. Cocktail bar. Randomly. I think we were mutual friends. Right. And this cocktail bar was famous for its watermelon martinis. Very good, actually. Yeah. And he had my number. And so there was interest, but I wouldn't reply to him for a whole week. And it was because I went to work. Yeah. And I went to work on a month. We worked Monday to Friday.

34:30then I worked to work like probably 6 7 a.m. on a Monday and wouldn't finish to like 2 a.m. on a Friday and it was just no time I never thought about and so he thought it was really weird but he never didn't know what I did oh he didn't know what you did but he knew I worked in a restaurant right and then you know probably a few weeks down the line you know went on a first date and he thought I was a waitress I was a head chef at restaurant Gordon Ramsay at this stage and he took me to this Thai place, Fulham, that like powdered cocktails and like and stuff. And I said, I'll never, I said, okay, so after dinner, I said, you know, just one thing, you're just never picking a restaurant again if we go out.

35:13No pressure. You told him at this point what you were doing. Yeah, but he didn't. But he was not a foodie. He knew like then, yeah. but it was very good because actually he loves food and he eats everything which is quite quite handy well it's quite handy but presumably when you go home you're not cooking I tend to I tend to cook do you yeah because I I do I just like it and I actually it's a terrible thing I probably don't cook that much at work ah right okay so create things I've got that vision for things but the guys do all the cooking and actually quite nice cooking at home okay put the music on Glass of wine.

35:52Yeah. The charm that I've designed to represent your husband is I have a whole spinning series of charms. So this one, it's in a frame, gold frame, and inside it's heart shape with South Africa or Africa engraved into it. and a little ruby in South Africa where I think you got married. Is that right? We got engaged in Kenya and my husband, actually born in Simbalwe, grew up in South Africa. But yeah, engaged to Africa is a fascination for me. I love Africa. Safaris. And am I right in thinking that you had quite an amusing time when he proposed to you? Yes. Tell me about that. We were on holiday in Kenya and on the last night he had decided he was going to propose.