Life in Charms with Marine Tanguy

0:01I'm Anoushka Dukas and I've been designing jewell for 30 years and collecting charms for as long as I can remember. In this podcast, I will be asking a series of extraordinary women to tell me their life story in charms. Welcome to my life in charms. Today, I'm joined by someone who's changing the way that we see the world, quite literally. Maureen Tanguy is a French entrepreneur, art advocate, author and mother, who's built a remarkable career around rethinking how we value artists and the images that fill our lives. She founded MT Art Agency, the first talent agency for visual artists, a business that doesn't trade artworks but invests directly in the people who create them.

0:44It's a model that's rewritten the rules of the art world and brought creativity into public spaces, from Marble Arch to Buckingham Palace. Maureen believes that the images surrounding us shape how we feel, about beauty, confidence, even happiness. Her book, The Visual Detox, explores exactly that, how to live more consciously in a world of constant visual noise. Maureen, welcome to my life in chance. Well, it's a pleasure. And I think I literally can't wait because I feel so inspired by you. Oh, well, I mean, I'm slightly nervous about this one. I am because when I read all about you, I'm like, oh, my God, she's so young and she's done so much.

1:24So you say. Yes, OK, I will say the same thing. So let's start with this pink bicycle. Yes. I absolutely love the idea of this pink bicycle. So the way I've done it is absolutely kind of slightly old fashioned bicycle in rose gold. I see it as if you imagine just a miniature bicycle, rose gold, spinning wheels, little pink sapphires on the on the kind of in the middle of the spokes. I don't know what you call that bit. and little kind of leather, dark brown handles. I think we look lovely with the kind of rose gold. And the pedals absolutely go round, and you can see very clearly there's a little pink sapphire there around the cog.

2:14But for me, this is an absolutely joyful pink bicycle. It's a very joyful pink bicycle. It has a lot of references. Did you read the book Women Run With The Wolf? No. It's a great book on... I think it's like when women go beyond what society asks of them. And there's a lot of liberation, there's a lot of singing, there's a lot of poetry in that book. It's kind of passed on from woman to woman for the last 50 years. It's a really great book. And I think that bicycle was a knock-on effect to yet something that I just didn't like. So usually something where I've, you know, I think in this example, I don't know if you remember the movie Frances Ha, one of my favorite movies by Greta Gerwig.

2:54and there's that amazing moment in the movie where she dances through the street of New York and she knocks the door of her apartment and decides to do what exactly she wants to do. She puts all her stuff in storage and she just goes and off and dance. I think that bicycle is the same act. Those are little acts, but they're joyful acts. And I think there's an innocence to them. And at the time when I left the cinema, my boyfriend at the time, which generally was a very bad idea and very bad decision, said that it was a really rubbish movie. Yeah. And so I just remember cycling really quickly on that pink bicycle that I had just painted.

3:29But also with the joy of saying no, with the joy of not pleasing him on what he expected me to do. And he was a bit older as well. And I think there's so much of that in that movie, when she dances on the street of New York. It's not perfect. It's not pretty. It's just her being very joyful and expressing that joy through dance, through laughing. because you actually hear her laugh really loudly as well, which I think is so liberating. And I think back to kind of the act of painting, I remember the sun, the loud music, obviously the garden. But it's just, yeah, what you said, it's just a very joyful act of not sticking to what someone expects of you.

4:10And I'm sure with women we have to go through that many times. But freedom, I was talking about, because somebody asked me this morning, what I thought kind of what female founders are all about. Yeah. And that kind of freedom and sense of authenticity to yourself. Yeah, for sure. It's kind of very much, I think, a female. Yeah. I think it is female because I think men, to a degree, have a lot of it, especially when they're born in a privileged setup. Yeah. Because they're born in a place where they can exist and become who they believe they can. Obviously, again, speaking within that privileged realm, I think with women, as we know, the road that we need to take is substantially more narrow.

4:56So I think it's, again, the act of existing, the acts of becoming who you want to be on your terms, all the while bearing the consequences of what that means. But there's joy in it and there's courage in it and there's resilience in it. And there's also consequences to it. Yeah. So what kind of what some of the consequences that you. that you've encountered. I mean, in terms of cost, I mean, we've all... It's endless. Endless, yeah. I mean, let's just look at the endless cost. I feel, you know, you run a company, I run a company. Like, I think realistically your cash flow may be impacted on projects that you don't want to take because values-wise you're not aligned, and that's a direct consequence.

5:36I think at a societal level, you know, you might come in friction with people that would I want you to just stay silent and smile more than actually expressing your opinion. So that would generate some social consequences. So I think they are endless. I think as you get older, you foresee them better. So while you still have them, you walk into them. Anticipate. You anticipate substantially better. I think when you're younger, they still come as a shock to you because I think you're probably more idealistic and thinking that by just doing what feels right, things will just... go into place but that's obviously not the case but your next charm I've actually done it as a um as a book as a miniature book locket uh so that the book uh opens it's 18 carat yellow gold um and it's hinged and it's kind of it's you it's got it's kind of got ridges like an old fashioned book which is so not what uh what your book is all about because it's all about But I think the juxtaposition of the two is quite interesting.

6:42And on the front, I have put different colored blue, kind of tonal blue sapphires to kind of indicate waves. Because this has been the waves and the seaside have been something that's obviously been very important to you. but I kind of see the book as I thought it was so interesting because I think it's kind of creativity really starts with editing doesn't it you know when you're writing a book it's like you know it's so creative in every respect but actually it's all about the edit in terms of how successful the execution is but just just talk to me a bit more about about the seaside and why we Well, it's so important.

7:30Well, it's interesting because not to kind of challenge your exercise, but you've also put a charm with pregnancy. But I think the C is expensive. What I mean by this is not expensive as in wealthy, expensive with an A. Well, you can expand onto a new horizon. And I think pregnancy is one of the few times where women are allowed to expand. And I think both of that is quite liberating. you were like where is she going with this there was a link there was a link um and I feel I feel therefore I think the sea is always very inspiring because you look at it and I think the fact that you're so little in front of it reminds you of how in important non-important you are but that's specifically what gives you those trends and confidence to go and do things I think it's it's because you're so little that actually um the entire life doesn't rest on your shoulders you can try many things and fail them you can have opportunities and change your mind and I think there's a there's a great um there's a you know you feel reassured that you're part of a bigger wider thing and I think the sea kind of gives that to you all the while also something that um you know I find a lot through dance and through sports in general but the sea has many moods and that's totally acceptable you know like I feel something that you know when you dance when you do sports in general is you know that your body on monday morning is different to monday afternoon is different to wednesday something that we tend to forget especially in the business world is that we're constantly evolving thing and the sea is in front of you telling you that um what you've seen of now is different to what you see in two hours and you're obviously not going to counter it by saying i don't want that sea and it's just that will never even cross your mind but i think again that enables you to be so many multiple versions of yourself um and i think all of that obviously I don't think I would have articulated that young being younger but I think it's so resturing to see moods because the sea obviously gets angry gets sad gets philanthropic gets happy gets still um so I think you have like an explosion of moods in French actually the sea is female so it's just an explosion of different emotions and moods and I think it's just somehow very calming well at least for me all of those moods felt very calming and obviously a lot of people always talk about the fact that you know it kind of I think I could sit in front of the sea and I could have my emotions being absorbed and feel better from walking back and that was already like an early stage way for me to deal with things when they were complicated at home so I'm sure for many people that I think the water is so powerful for this um but like yeah I definitely identify with how transcending I think being in front of the sea I mean funnily enough you're very articulate on it but actually we live um about half a mile from the sea and so for me the sea is the place where I go and walk and think and enjoy all of that but I hadn't thought of it it quite so kind of visually as moods and you're so right of course it has it was a healthy mood yeah no no I but you know yeah I absolutely it's such a lovely because it's really interesting there was um I remember reading about the economics of happiness and how you're having to be casterly happy and composed and obviously that's completely unrealistic um and again i think this just shows you the total opposite episode was nature in general like nature is not composed at all times and i think that's very rushing to accept the level of possibilities and and variations that can happen from it i think yeah i'm completely but um but i just want to go back to why you talked with what you actually talked about what you because there's so much to say about it that's why I'm like oh I don't even know where to begin here there's so much to say but I was very touched by the story of your grandma yes sorry just talk about that you have to put me back on track no no I just have to just remind myself what so we spoke a little bit about my granny so um I I think I am forever incredibly grateful to have been raised by a strong woman I think it's something that you know and in a way and I adore my mother and I think we're in such a special stage of our relationship especially personally having kids but I think my mother showed me how taking the wrong marriage could completely destroy you and I think there was a weakness to her which at the time I think I was tough about but now I have so much love for and so much empathy for but granny was the opposite granny was a definition of strengths and empowerment and what a woman could do when she was felt empowered and in a way this is why I say I have love for both is because I think you need to understand how both works and you need to obviously help women like my mother's to not be in that position which since she's in a much better position herself but hold on a minute you said your grandmother brought you up yeah is that right so yes so just explain that so my um when I since we're having a very personal chats and this is very personal charms when I was born my dad was with somebody else already right um and And at the time, he came back a few days later to the maternity ward.

12:37And the first thing he said was that on top of this, I was ugly. What was all? Which, to be fair, was partially correct. And I had loads of, like, dark hair and a big, like, burst mark. I can't say it was very appealing, but that's okay. I mean, also, like, now that we all had newborns, I think we cannot... We're not... They're not all beautiful. They are not all beautiful. I mean, that's okay. But I think, bearing all of this in mind, I think Granny quickly saw, that, you know, my mother was not going to be strong enough because she was your mother's mother. Yeah, and she fell into postpartum depression at the time, which is a big part of why I also wrote this book because I need colors and art just like you have in your house.

13:16I need visuals that makes me feel better because I saw my mother in depression at the time, cancelling every color, you know, going into tidying that was obsessive. There was no book, no colors, no art. and almost a representation of the depression being no colours at all and lifeless. So I grew up with Granny, who decided that, therefore, she would be almost like a sideline parent. And it was amazing. You brought up in France. Yes. So you have to think it's a little island at Ile-de-Ré, which is tiny. So also you have to think that one village to the other, we only 9 ,000 people a year. So going over to your Granny will be a few minutes' walk.

13:56so it's not like you have to travel halfway across France like your aunties everyone is was in the same I think we need to understand that yes I feel like you know you are in a place where everything is very near each other because it's a tiny island um hands to bicycle as well because you're kind of going around everywhere and on the bicycle because there's such short distances um but I think for that I'm super lucky because granny was I think I was allowed to do loads of things that probably you know I think grandparents when they raise you they're not going to be as disciplined as a parent will be um if I wanted to get out of school to go for lunch with my grandparents she will happily pick me up and we'll do that so you have to think that like discipline was probably not the thing that was most put forward yeah um and but also like creativity was was there like you know she loved to cook she loved to talk about anything artistic she I would listen to stories about the war for my grandparents as well and the world felt like life and this narration talking about storytelling it was storytelling I was I was immersed in storytelling and obviously like and I just love all their stories because I think with grandparents it's like they just tell you stories not to stop there's so much wisdom exactly and they just you could just listen to their stories endlessly so I think I was I was basically growing up in storytelling and I just love all the stories um and so the story that you refer to with the sea is just before my granny passed away she was in a retirement home and she asked me you know she died at 101 so she was um she was very old um which is very lucky for me to have had so much of her until then um and she asked me if she would ever get stuck and we'll see the sea again because she's in retirement.

15:43Yeah. Having lived in Indirei. And up to the sea is five minutes' walk at that point, right? So it's not very far. I think being an entrepreneur, I'm sure you identify that, you know, if one is in front of a problem, one looks for a solution quite quickly. So I was like, well, I can't be the person that's going to say she's never going to see the sea again. So I've got to take her to the sea. And I just remember she was in a wheelchair. You have to find, like, you know, the bits to put under the feet so that she can actually, like, it's a whole practical. Yeah, it's a whole practical. As you've heard, it's not my forte.

16:16So, like, I have to really work out the how this will occur. And I had my son, I had three boys, but I had my eldest at the time. So I also had a little boy that, you know, as you know, like, you're on a big wheelchair, the road to the sea is all going to be perfectly smooth, and obviously you have a little boy that you have to look after. But I just couldn't break myself to say, no, you can't. So I was like, it has to happen. so obviously I dressed her I asked some help from the nurses to put it all together on the wheelchair and off we went to the sea and I generally, I mean that always goes back to courage but something I teach my kids is courage doesn't mean that you are deeply stressed in the inside when you're doing it, I was so anxious that I was doing it because I was like if anything happens to her or she tips to her because obviously she's heavier than I so if she tips to it could all go it will be absolutely horrid And so you do it.

17:10And then I just remember that moment of relief when your plan has worked out and she's in front of the sea. And she had joy again. I think so much of what we're discussing is joy, how joyful she was to be in front of the sea. And it was February. So she had her coat on. She had a few curls still. And then the air was blowing into her hair. And I just remember thinking that's the moment I need to really imprint so deeply into my memory because that's so special for us three. and obviously I always found that so funny with kids but kids really get it when this is not the time to act out I think Atlas just didn't move he was like she's obviously my mum is clearly sending me a signal that if I dare moving she would not be happy about it because I was trying to also manage myself at the same time but it was us three standing in front of that sea a place that I always loved to go as well it's like one of those little opening on the on the sand you know with like a little bit of the cliff as well it was beautiful um and then just her took it in and then yeah I just thought I just I'm so happy I mean consequences back again by the second I had um brought her back to the nursing home oh not I mean to retirement home um a WhatsApp group of my family exploded with disagreement from all fronts um so going back to consequences that that episode did not just end with me looking at the sea romantically then I had to um arguments my whole decision making to everyone on that front and it was a real divide of opinions I would say the family was split between the ones who were like she's 99 she wanted to see the sea marine made it happen yeah to the others were like what if she caught a cold yeah and then we will have she will pass away on that front just to clarify she passed away two years later the sea did not impact her but it was also really interesting on what is the value of life in that final moment and I acted upon my intuition of thinking of what I knew of her she wanted to enjoy life so enjoyment of life had to be what was most important to her in that instance and I that's the reason I just thought for her I was right that she wanted to see the sea had to be it because she was someone that had enjoyed life and that memory has stayed with you I'm so so happy I'm so happy I lived and I'm so happy my son was there as well because that's memory we can both share as well and he remembers too i'm sure i hope so i mean he was little but i hope so yeah um so so let's just talk about the book a bit because i've decided i've chosen to to make this as a book um so what was the what what was the kind of beginning of that book when did you what age were you when you wrote this book um so i just published it oh it's recent Yeah, a year and a half ago now.

19:49I wanted to have the right publisher because the art world has dedicated publishers. But the problem is that the reach is very small. So I wanted a penguin to make it a mainstream statement, not something that was niche. Which has been your approach in art throughout. Always. I feel like, you know, I don't want to hear that visuals are something that only concerns people who are in the arts. 65 % of us are visual learners. like we all consume 10 000 images a day so we are constantly shaped by what we see and and not to kind of dismiss the conversation we're having but we memorize 60 percent of what we see as opposed to 15 percent of what we listen to again i'm glad to say that that's why we're videoing it too just so you know before we remember our faces and i can't put see more you very sweetly bought me the book but i'm i am you know i can't wait to hear your thought no i'm really interested because there is so much visual noise out there how do you tell us in the book how do we switch off from that yes I feel like you know the the title is a bit provocative and I think obviously you can imagine the publisher knows how to do this thing so that you can buy the book and that's the reason the book was very successful yeah but I am not someone that believes in the black and white ways to approach life I think the book is much more on how do you understand and the impact that visuals have on you and the many ways in which you can tackle it.

21:16But it's all just going to be like a big detox, like a detox juice that you're going to do for three days, and then you'll feel better. Like, this is much more like something that hopefully you have awareness, you become more knowledgeable, and then you can start taking small steps. But I would hate to be yet a nosal way in which you can become more perfect at 5am. This is not what that book is, just to clarify. It's meant to be empowering. No, I'm really looking forward to reading it, but I'm kind of fascinated. of, you know, because it is, you're so right, you don't think of that, but actually the title is extremely commercial.

21:51Yes, and it worked. And it's worked. Yeah, congratulations. That's fantastic. Well, that's obviously my publishers more than I, so congratulations to Penguin. But how are we going to deal with kind of the AI and its ability to create, you know, images? how are we going to retain the kind of humanity and the feeling of yeah i guess that well i think um i don't know if you saw but recently we launched the very first sculpture representing postpartum absolutely did we're going to talk about that we can talk about that now actually go on i feel because i think to your ai point if you were to put actual images of postpartum into ai generators right now so any like an open ai journey it comes back to you without any of the stretch marks imperfection and having sexualized more your breast and your body can i just interrupt because i think for people listening yeah you should just describe actually what the sculpture is yeah because because otherwise it doesn't mean anything so we launched the first sculpture representing postpartum so postpartum is the stage when you're just given birth and usually are still wearing partially nappies on but it can last up to two years because as we know giving birth also affects you mentally and physically and can last for a little while but that's the stage in which you've given birth and your body is undergoing some major changes mentally physically and with your hormones too yeah so we work with 40 women that we've scanned with our artist raven de clark and so we scan those 40 bodies which made into one so that the final result is a woman but she is made of 40 bodies um and then we've researched it with our academy partners ucl um many different ways in which women felt during postpartum to be as representative as possible.

23:36So about two other women took part in that survey. This was financed by one of our clients, Frida, and actually this gets into my work. I built a talent agency that specifically supports artists and connects them with opportunities like this. So that art here triggers change and is right in the centre of people's life. And here, in this instance, I was displayed in Westminster. Yes. so that's but if you're just just if if you haven't heard all of that and because because i wanted you to explain but actually when you look at that woman yeah you i would argue they don't actually know whether she's postpartum or not actually you know she could actually be pregnant it it's not so she has like a nappy she does usually wear um which is quite like it's kind of a nappy that you get up on to meet Tommy.

24:29When you get up close, she's got veins on the breast that you get when you're breastfeeding. There's definitely... Okay, I can't look at the image. No, no, I could also, like, I think the thing, as we know, my postpartum will be different. Who knows a postpartum? Mine, of course. I feel like... Of course. I think, and that's... And I'm sure you've seen, like, we got, like, 61 million engagement on social media. When really kind of viral. And I think that's always going to be difficult because a postpartum is so different from one woman to another. Even within my three kids, like the first was a sepsis C session and the last was a beautiful burst in 15 minutes.

25:02So your experiences on how you enter motherhood are going to be so drastically different that a woman cannot basically embody every experience. But to your point, I feel we tried as much as possible to represent something that people had never seen. And on your AI point, it's really interesting because postpartum is nowhere to be seen. There's no images of it. if you google it online there's no images too and therefore as we know AI generators are feeding themselves through existing imagery but if the imagery is already biased which happens about for our gender especially like even if you prompt on AI generators who is the CEO you get Richard Gere in a tall glass building you don't really get any diversity of it right so that the AI generators are being um are amplifying existing biases which I think is one thing that's really scary and all the biases that we know from that front.

25:54But I think from that project that was really interesting because it was about rectifying. So now when you go back on the imagery, our sculpture comes up a lot, which will then further re-inform the exaggerators and what the spartum actually is, which is so important because, as you know, when you give birth, you have all this weird body that you've never seen before, especially on your first, and you can't see it anywhere, so you think something is wrong with you more than actually acknowledging it everywhere. Yeah, of course. but let's just go back a bit because you started mt art you were very young i mean yeah i am i was approached when i was running the gallery of steve at uh 23 so i was i started running it at 21 at 23 i was approached by an advertiser called stef sebag who then sent me to la because he said let's just open a gallery on an e1 visa i was thrown into a world that you would know which is the world of celebrities um having never dreamed of la bear in mind that i had not dreamed of street art either so it was all new again um but i think what the world of la taught me was marketing communication which became a strength of the company to this day um and understanding the importance of engagement with marketing properly um and and why my artists therefore could use some of the marketing use for the talent sectors for them to to broaden their reach of audiences and broaden their voices as well so LA was really great at the school.

27:19Okay hold on you just got to go back a bit because you'll you you obviously know this like the back of the hand but we don't all know this but it at the time there were no uh artists talent agency no well we built the first one. Okay so so that is extraordinary and well you know I think it's the same as you like you just take a leap of faith and then you just you know I keep referring to you on that for me i'm like no i haven't done any of these things i'm like wow not leaning in every time but i think it's a leap of faith on something that i felt will make a lot of sense because it will provide more importance to artists suddenly you're not just selling networks you're offering them loads of different types of projects yeah it will widen the audiences of the sector but also give the artists a stronger voice which was important to me at the time um all the while um being a more sustainable business model which is also important to me financially because I still had to look after myself so like something that was sustainable financially was key.

28:14So the way so the way it works is that you're you're actually investing in the artists and helping them to find just explain. Yes we back artists yeah at this stage from established artists like Annette Bertinski up to emerging talents and then we provide them with loads of different opportunities from the entertainment world to up to public art spaces to you know exhibitions museum opportunities digital opportunities but you are rather than having a gallery where um you know like people walk into your gallery that's where the opportunities happen a talent agency and that's the same for musicians so actors or sportives you revel around an office with directors of different divisions that can't say pitch this artist yeah in the context of public arts brand partnerships museum partnerships that's the difference but bottom line it's Jerry Maguire that pitches talents that's where you are you're passionate about who you work with you want them to succeed and you create opportunities for them so Maureen our next charm your next charm yes is ballet shoes yes um and well this is so feminine and so utterly you know they'll be it'll be I I've just done it as one charm I've made them exactly I mean I did ballet I was very young very very badly um but I they were pink satin gorgeous shoes and so they're in rose gold um they've got very pale light brown diamonds um set all the way through all the way in the ballet shoe um and then rose gold uh ribbons with a little bow at the back of the heel um and it's got your name um in the in the sole which will be it could just be really pretty really feminine um but can we just talk about why um why a ballet shoe so i went back into ballet and when i gave first and my second back into it so you started back you've been doing down when i was younger and then i went back because at this point it felt that you know there was not there was no space for me there was no that focus space when i could regain my creativity and i had two now i had three and i have three so so this is after the third that's after the second I went after the second okay um but we're leaning to the third I promise okay but um I went back at that point because um I felt that my creativity you know I was so involved in business life and as you know being a CEO you know you're running teams you have a lot of HR you have all the joys of being a CEO and obviously I had the kids at home there was no space for my creativity and there was no space for my focus and for me to expand into that as well so I went back into it for that reason, ballet is the reason I'm held together.

31:00It generally became my mental health and physical solace, where, you know, before ballet, my brain is full of, like, highs and lows thoughts. After ballet is quite well-ordered and creativity is bursting and I feel joyful again. You know, it's not an easy feast to be able to show up and put on your ballet shoes on a Monday afternoon. Leave your phone. Exactly. And I think for that, I think there's that spirit, that strength is held to those women. And I think you sense that everyone is still doing it despite the challenges to turn up in the first place. And I think that's really powerful. I went back into dancing really quickly after, still wearing my nappies.

31:41I actually loved it. I still remember the suit. So nappies. It's a very famous postpartum nappies. And I feel like it was just such a lovely feel of, I mean, recovery, obviously, just to clarify for anyone. and like it's not like I went super hard yeah but it's a joy of dancing yeah something that is just happened to your body that is so massive it's giving birth and then you're just dancing through it and it's the act of processing it emotionally again um and now I dance a lot with my third on his sling um actually how old is he he's three months oh my goodness yes three months look at you he's um yeah he's a Matisse is a baby um and and it's just so interesting because Matisse I mean you know you know your kids feel you like but matisse whenever he's like on me dancing it's just such a happy baby he's like such joyful yeah because i think he probably just identifies all throughout time so it's just really lovely i've had it my second dress ballet too um but i obviously not with me he does it in class so it's become um yeah it's become my little place dance works this way it is it's behind bond street it's an academy and it's um it's my little solace i just get very happy at lessons or it's you you're learning a routine to to perform out of interest so is there is there an end goal to i'm just i'm fascinated whether all of you in the chart but i think this has changed as you see sometimes my my answers evolve in life and i think this answer has evolved where initially this was the act of processing and it was an act of mental health i now adore dancing so i surprise myself um on the bicycle you get things that's dangerous but as i walk on the things just doing a movement or i just i'm really into it now i just really love the act of dancing um so i think if you had asked me that six months ago would i ever perform i'd be like definitely no i am not doing it for that reason but i think i surprise myself to love to dance yeah and i think the love has picked up um and i think the shyness that you initially feel because what's really as you know with ballet was really tough is I had to turn up in that room after my second postpartum and dance in front of everyone in the center because after every bar session when you're doing your exercise by the bar you have to come to the center and you have to do it in front of everybody oh my god and then you are really bad at yourself that time yeah and everyone watches you being really bad yeah and I've always thought that was actually the liberating point if you can be vulnerable and not good at something but you're then learning amongst that community then there's nothing that you can't take on past that point and I think for me it was such also as an entrepreneur you have to turn up perfect in all situations was here you're allowed to not be good but to be held as you're not good and to progress from that and I think that's a very um yeah it's a very safe space I think to do that in I love that Do you think, has being a mother changed the way that you lead or create in your business?

34:43I'm sure I think empathy is multiplied. I think you also see, again, we speak both of us out of privilege here, where a lot of my girlfriends couldn't all continue their businesses as they had kids. I have a husband that decided that despite earning more than me, my career and my copy was just as valuable as his because he also has a company which I think is something that you know takes a very special man to do that and it should be normal but it's not and I think that's already something that's very special as a privilege the second privilege is not only that but therefore I have childcare from Monday to Friday and a system that allows me to do all the events and networking and everything that's required for me to still have a business us running successfully so there's so much competence that means that I can be an entrepreneur and I can lead so I think bearing in mind all those privileges I think your empathy widens I think your empathy and your conscious of privileges I thought it was just about working hard up until having kids and men and women were side by side and we had solved so many things then you get into motherhood and most of your network sadly doesn't have a choice yeah and you realize it's not that simple it's not just us working side by side there are still huge inequalities in who does household calls and who looks after the kids and all the things that we know so I think empathy has been demultiplied um I'm sure flexibility that offer to the team will be the same and alongside those um those values we also be corps I'm sure all of this is reinforces I think you know you mentioned something around postpartum but in a way so I never take my leave because I know what I do and clearly have breeze in and out of what I do.

36:27But I think my creativity, I think when you are, again, with kids, what you want to push out of this world has to be essential and essential. You're not going to leave your kid behind for something that's not meaningful. You will do things that are really meaningful. And I think, as Matisse was just born this summer, we kicked off a project with Davia Tembro on the big land art painting. We did that postpartum project. We were about to kick off the Sixth Nation with art in the center of it. we did several exhibitions that I loved as well with institutions that I adore but all of them felt very meaningful because I think to a degree you want the best creativity and you want the deepest meaning because you are in the position yourself physically and personally where you're not going to take on crap you're not going to work as someone that's unpleasant you're not going to do something that you don't want to do because you already sacrifice a lot in terms of showing up and turn up to work So it probably helps in making decision-making that's more essential, I think.

37:27You know, that's so interesting because I don't think I got to that place where, you know, decision until I was much older, despite the children. I think I was much later to think, actually. I don't know why. What made you get to that place? I think probably experience and sod it type of view you know I'm kind of able to yeah to you know say actually you know we want to do it but if I don't want to do it I'm not going to do it or I don't I don't like it or yeah but as you say that's a place of privilege absolutely it's a huge place of privilege but it's also a place of having your priorities straight yes i think kids give you priorities um and i think it's again would you want to answer to an unpleasant colleague or endless email rather than being your kid the answer is no yeah of course so i feel you this is where you lead even towards well let's just simplify life and yeah what matters yes but i think that's that's a lot of wisdom that's come at a very young age i think postpartum wisdom someday well that is valley wisdom i've read somewhere um that you said that your life is full but not busy did i say that yeah apparently and i'm like okay so what's the difference to you oh that's interesting i think it's very interesting i'm trying to think how i'm going to answer that question without disclosing all my tricks and tips on this No, no, please do.

39:00So I think we just talked about priorities. I think, again, it goes back to, I will take a meeting if a meeting is required, but if not, it will be a call. I will have moments within my day where I go, even when we had like, you know, freeze week just happened. We had literally seven exhibition launching. I still took the time to collect the kids at school at 3 p.m. or do the ballet. I don't disclose it I don't say I'm going off and doing that but I think for me the fact that I maintain all those aspects of life is the reason I can turn up happy at the end of that evening if I didn't and I just was back to back busy in terms of my workplace I think I wouldn't be able to turn up as full and as meaningful and meaningfully on the evening like I need and I think for someone else it might be a nightmare because I think on a Saturday like if I look at my Saturday I just passed.

39:57I flew to Dublin, gave a talk at the university there, flew back. It's now 2.30 p.m. because of playing Lennon early. Went straight to a birthday party with one of my dear friends with my kids. And then there was a Kennedy gala because Kerry Kennedy cares a lot about human rights. I'm on the UN side. So I then went to like a house. Someone might be looking at this thinking that sounds like a total nightmare. For me, it's like, it means that my work is not it. I've had moments again when my kids matters and I have it during the day even during the weekdays as well I think on the Wednesday I will still do the ballet class at the valet at 4 p.m.

40:35No I get that but I think what's what's absolutely admirable is that you can do all of those things and really be present in all those things because I think that's a real skill. So Maureen your next charm I've depicted this charm um as a pregnant woman because there's nothing more beautiful actually than than a pregnant um female body I love the fact at the very beginning you you said oh I like the diamond nipples well okay I have given her diamond nipples um I've actually also given her a diamond belly button so I mean you can choose um anyway she is um actually having having kind of looked at the photographs not as closely as perhaps I might but um the sculpture um what's the sculptural verity in was a verity exactly verity mother verity feels to me like it is a bit like that it wasn't done on purpose actually but um but she is an absolute kind of the torso of a pregnant lady um 18 karat gold um kind of reasonable side boobs i'd say um and a pearl um hanging from her just just because i love that kind of playfulness but hanging from her legs um and the pearl that's the detail that i love the most it absolutely i made fun of your diamond nipples but i love the pearl that is hanging well it completely represents femininity and you know yeah all about motherhood just talk to me a bit about this because when you you you did say to me actually it was all about remembering my teeth when he was born so I always commission and after run the pregnancies and births of my kids because it's just I think a perfect picture you know all those photography which you know you have photography you're pregnant but again it's that I want to remember how I felt then and I think I felt differently towards each I want the colors and and the composition to remind me how I was feeling then which is very aligned with your concept um because this is it's what you want to remember it's those memories of those feelings um I think it goes back to so much of our conversation I feel so fortunate that so much of life is rich with meaning it's rich with projects it's rich with art and artists and obviously the kids and even friendships um and you have to almost accept that for every single one of them it passes quickly because of the richness of it all because as a child is born and there's a project is being launched and there's a thing is happening and then your friends are coming so it's one of those life where every minute has that richness and i absolutely adore it but it also means that there's a little bit of grieving toward each timing as much as there's joy i think this is i think the word we keep insisting on today and you made me realize for our conversation is actually all the the colors and the gray zones of joy because joy is one feeling but then as we discuss it comes with the consequences and some of the grieving too and and he has a deep moment of me holding my son he just got born it was it was like i adored his birth it just was born and and and i'm holding him and i now know this is gonna be my last because my husband does not want to force kids and will divorce me if that was the case so we are done with i think at this point with three kids um and and therefore there's a bit of sweat feeling of how incredible that experience was um and and of course you know i complained every single day like every pregnant person that i was heavy and i had an awful lot of this and like we all do but is also the last one yes um and so for this is why it's so beautiful is how joy can be side by side with a bit of sadness that bittersweet feeling that this is the end and i remember feeling that holding him um and you know you're being wheeled on your wheelchair to your rooms it's a very raw kind of moment um passing all those women were back to deliver bus so you know they're about to go you just finished it's it's such a such a funny thing those words because so much has happened was in I remember listening to women who were just given birth to before me and knowing all those timings first are going to be so important in our lives but it's happening right now um and then that's it it's just it's the last uh baby that you ever gave birth to um again if you listen to my husband and my eldest they're quite delighted about it but to me personally it's um yeah there's a sadness to it because it's a moment in your life that you long for you're trying to find the right partner to do it with how you would do it what age you would do it and how would the company cope with it like there's never a right time exactly and you try to figure out all those options and now it's there you've done it and and of course I'm going to raise them too but it's it's an ending of something that I probably spent 10 15 years thinking about and I knew that this was the ending of that chapter yeah and with that comes sadness as much as enormous amount of relief and joy that it happened it's a healthy baby you know you're holding um matisse's healthy very healthy because it was 10 pounds it was enormous um but it's like well the largest baby has also have some very healthy but therefore um yeah sadness yeah no that's that's such an interesting i love that kind of you're right It is a kind of moment of joy and it's sadness or just, maybe sadness is a bit strong.

46:08It's a grief, but grief doesn't have to be like negative. It's a grieving of a certain chapter. I think you have to pass on to the chapters and you have to grieve some of it because, you know, I look back at pictures of my first. I was a different mother. First everything is new. You're so crudest to all of it. Like there is a grief to like the chapter evolving. I am now a mother of three, but even the way I was approaching my postpartum and everything, I was so much more knowledgeable. And you will keep grieving chapters. What was the others? Six, two and a half, three months. Oh, my God. So you really have got your hands very...

46:45It's a very physical affair because they all climb on you all the time. Yeah. Well, if you have... Once you have four, you have to change all sorts of things. My husband will not let me... I have four. Do you? I have four. And I'm an only child, so I'm like, I was really, this is a whole new world for me. So maybe you should come for dinner and talk to my husband about it. I love the fact that you commission a piece of art. Anyway, this would remind you absolutely of perhaps all of them. Particularly, my artist and Abriel did it. And we actually had a whole exhibition on motherhood, but specifically looking beyond motherhood as the caregivers.

47:23The one who will show up for people, the one who cares. and, you know, all the silent actions that you don't focus on, but yet that's the one that I most deeply felt. So we specifically, it was so meaningful because I then got to launch the exhibition and the painting I had commissioned was part of it. And it was all, again, a full circle. And I think that's why art for me is always so integrated. And I got to be able to curate the exhibition. It was, again, like a very special moment. It's so, but that's so like jewellery, isn't it? It's, you know, it's the moment that, you know, that's why I got you to talk about these memories particularly because it's so about that because you can you've written a book but the book you have to read the whole book in order to have the you know to take the memory with you so that's what kind of that's what I love it about um so your final um your final charm um I've I've done this as an artist palette because clearly um Art came a few times in the conversation.

48:23It's come up a few times in the conversation. And you don't have a pearl again. It's not a pearl, actually. It's a little, it's a briolette. It's an aquamarine little briolette. So it's like where the water is falling off the paintbrush. Oh, I love that. Very clever. Because I like the movement. But it's interesting. I mean, obviously, we've talked a lot about art. But I also, in talking to you now, I'm thinking, actually this could represent rather than just art in its kind of obvious format um it could actually represent all the different facets of your life all of those different colors and what you're talking about it seems to me that it could be all of those things you know it could be i haven't drawn it as ruby but it could be rubies for passion you know um emeralds or sapphires you know it could be for desire for for um all sorts of different kind of things but but I've drawn it exactly as I think most people would imagine an artist palette where you put your thumb through I put the paintbrushes but where you put your thumb through the uh the palette to hold it um and the kind of blobs of color are represented by different stones um you know I had got a mix of sapphires and emeralds but actually thinking about it i kind of think that that representative of all those many facets of your life could be and the colors like you said beautiful and i love that you put the sapphires again um i think one of the things that's kind of you know even in even in in kind of doing some research about you it made me like nervous because i'm like oh don't be i mean actually the one that's nervous no because i'm like because the whole world of art is a bit scary as an outsider.

50:11Well I think that's my point actually I think it is quite interesting that they're both potentially quite elitist, quite privileged. More than potentially they are. Yeah I think both are and so how does one kind of because I'm almost fanatical about this when I opened my very first jewellery shop which was Links of London all those years ago you know everything had to be under glass because it was silver etc etc but the moment you put things under glass it's it's like don't touch me yeah I think art's quite like that but I had this all these things that I was um pretty fanatical about I had an open door policy uh so that you know people aren't having to ring a bell etc etc to get over the pressure which at the time was revolutionary because I'm sure most wear through absolutely and I had kind of music so that you weren't terribly aware of yourself in this in the steps and um carpet on the floor so you didn't you weren't because then nobody was wearing trainers you know they were click clack heels yeah so all of those things to make it less intimidating and less scary um and and I do think that art and artists I mean I'm saying this maybe I'm um maybe I'm wrong but but I don't think come wrong I think it is all quite kind of scary and you don't want to put yourself in a situation where you feel really stupid by asking the stupid questions I'm not so worried about asking stupid questions anymore but that's come with it you have incredible art around but but I mean you know you'll ask me about the art and I've you know why do I like it etc etc I might not be able to answer it in what I would consider to be an articulate kind of manner but how do we I've described how I will do it in a jewellery environment yeah how do you do that in an art environment yeah I feel you have to dissociate and I think you've done that through storytelling again because it's about dissociating the pricey value because again they are artists and we've worked with many assemblage artists whose prices are very high yeah um and that that is because it's a market value those are so accomplished that's just very cool pieces that this is the prices that's being attached to them with the excess um and i think that's how you differentiate the both and you said this is that you know you do that through storytelling where for me when i integrate um art on the street yes someone has paid and quite a large amount to make sure this is being produced because like the postpartum project was bronze for instance so that's how expensive material but you're obsessed with it is free um you're it has contextness to it so you don't have to try and work out what is very complicated orientation thing to say you're being given context just like you were um it's also the environment that you know you're familiar with um so it gets through that familiarity hopefully this is less disruptive than think that you have to enter a very posh gallery to kind of get in um and so i think public health for me will be my first kind of access i I think the second is I'm from a generation where, you know, my artist, Derek Bertang, was discovered being in Ghana through social media.

53:23So before, the only way in which you could be discovered as an artist was to ultimately know someone in the art world that could show you within the gallery. This has changed again because you could be somewhere in Ghana doing something incredible and then send me a message on LinkedIn or Instagram. And I could start a conversation or so my team could start a conversation. I think that also has broken down a lot of barriers and for all the flaws of social media you see here how social media can be you know so helpful in breaking down those barriers and I think it's just the conversations that we're having shows it's about human beings it's about life it's forgetting for two seconds the social status element which I'm sure has to try people to our sectors um but I think for both of us I love creativity I'm a creative um I value artists deeply um is so much beyond status it's about human conversation it's about making sure that the life we leave the values that we have the meanings that we make is represented artistically and then we get to share them all together through this art piece and also this art project so i am far beyond whether or not this is a type of person or not because i want my visual conversation to be as representative of everybody yeah i think that's really that that absolutely addresses that one on one level but what it doesn't what the other thing that I think is really scary about art no matter whether you can afford it can't afford it etc etc um is when you're when you're faced with a piece of but you're looking at a piece of art is and you're looking at it and you go well is it just a load of splodges of orange or is it which it may be but but it's scary to ask to ask the question is what is this what and i think i i am sure well i hope i'm i'm right that other people will absolutely look at you know go to freeze and think oh my god what is that and that makes you feel stupid that's that's what that's what i'm when i'm talking about elitist and i'm not necessarily talking about the money i'm talking about the the fact that makes you feel stupid i had that conversation with um one of my investors um we raised funding so simon dupree frederick jusset loads of people in the sector who was quite well established yeah who is loads of them being men um and also loads of them coming from quite a privileged background to start with and one of them was like i just don't understand how people just don't take risk and put themselves in really uncomfortable position i put myself in comfortable position 10 times a day and I said to him that it took me 16 to 17 years back to Bali how much it helped me to be comfortable to be in an uncomfortable position and be vulnerable in that position what I mean by this is that it ultimately takes so much confidence to be like I'm okay asking questions about not knowing anything yeah or trying something which is again back to agenda I think really is also coming to our agenda on that front it takes us confidence to actually be uncomfortable to take risks are uncomfortable to put ourself out there in a way that we're not perfect or we don't know how to do it or we do it we're not articulated enough and I think all of this unfortunately comes to privileges and I think the that is by far one of the biggest battle when it comes to the arts is you're talking to someone now where it's been 18 years I'm in it so of course I'm very articulated in it that's all I do in and out for 18 years um but you know once upon of time my first ever museum that I ever seen was at 17 years old before that I never seen any art and so it's always hard because now you see me as a product of someone that releases art in and out and it's so comfortable in it but I think you have to remember that my start to life with it was the visual environment it wasn't the arts it was just appreciating that why being by the sea and finding that beautiful I felt better that's all it really was at the start and if there was something visual that could make me feel better than there was other visual things that could have the same impact yeah so you can start as small as this articulation for me i don't mind someone can say whatever they want about the work and i think what's interesting is what you would find with the art world and i'm sure you have it in the jewelry world frankly most people in the world will use over extra complicated adjectives now amplified with chat gbt yes but if you were to actually ask them about why they use that adjective they might have to no idea what they use that adjective so i love a direct personal understanding of why someone loves a work of art i don't need the over complicated adjectives um and i don't mind about the cv of the person that stays at that point but if you came up and you said that work just like we had the conversation about the anthony gormley made you feel x yeah i would love to start that conversation yeah so i think it's forgetting again is removing these complicated adjectives and i must look clever but not needing to look clever means you're confident and that goes back to privilege we are in i feel i'm in a position where i don't need to look clever in opposition of life which is the reason i can learn more now but that took me ages yes and it took me ages and that's privilege yeah because i'm now comfortable enough in my own skin that if i look stupid i'm okay about that if i ask a stupid question that's not the end of the world but that again comes with privilege and That's interesting about art.