S16 E8: Your Retention Strategy Is Probably Broken

25:08Nik:Two, immediately recommend the right alternative based on what was returned and maybe the reason, maybe it's a different colorway, a different size, a different silhouette. And number three, include a small incentive to come back within 10 days. Brands that nail their conversions flow for returns, they see 30 to 40 % of their returners convert into repeat purchasers. The ones that don't, those customers are gone. Their return was their last interaction with you and it was a bad one. If you need help building smart post purchase and post return flows, Instant makes it super easy. Their AI powered retention engine generates personalized emails for every shopper automatically.

25:43Check them out at instant.one slash Sharma.

25:46Nik:Okay, I want to talk about what what you think are the most important flows a brand can have, especially going into, you know, a life cycle where they're trying to have high retention. So consumable products, or supplements, where do you feel are the most important flows that a brand needs to have to launch? And then where should they try to get to? And then I also want to talk about like how you think about campaigns that are not just kind of, you know, just fluff, basically. For sure. So I mean, most people will probably give the answer of like a welcome series, just like of course of course that's like what gets people in but in most cases only like one or two emails as part of the welcome series will ever convert a customer and you know after that it's like um you know it's kind of tough so as far as like on the retention end the first thing is kind of like what we talked about earlier right where it's like the transactional shipping emails are such an unbelievably overlooked component to the email program that it's not a basic template in Klaviyo like you wouldn't even know to create it um you have to like use maybe like a Wonderman or a Malomo, you know, to kind of ingest a lot of those properties from Shopify over to Klaviyo.

26:55But like, those are hugely important for retention. Because again, we on the retention side, it's our goal to, of course, educate, but also prime the customer to be, you know, to be excited about staying with the brand to know like why, you know, the product's going to work for them. And so like, we use these emails now, like, we'll like, push down a lot of transactional content, like the shipping and like order details towards the bottom of these emails now. And we'll like front load them with like your journey over 12 weeks. And, you know, also like for some brands, maybe there's like a difference in like intensity of flavor or like effects that you might experience by using the product at different dosages or whatever, or like different mixtures of like maybe water content.

27:37So we'll kind of like load up that educational content so that the very minute they actually receive their product, it gets delivered. They know so much about the product. They know so much about like what's ahead for them that, you know, it wouldn't even matter if we sent them another email as part of like the post-purchase onboarding flow. Like they would already know like what to expect, what to look for and what to stay for, I guess, for that matter. So those are super important. And then, of course, you know, something we're also exploring right now is like masterclasses. and what that like tactically means is like as a customer who kind of you know subscribed or like starts their journey with the brand we'll set up a really interactive onboarding flow or experience that we're doing in type form that you know we're linking out to from like post-purchase onboarding emails that basically is like a nice way because like if you think about an email right you know not everybody's going to open the email and then not everybody's going to even read half the email they probably just read like the hero section so how much can you really fill up in that email.

28:35It's like, there's not a lot to work with, right. And so we'll link out to this type form experience where it's like, you're just, you know, you're keeping the user engaged by having them click buttons to, you know, get to through to the next page, to learn more and more and more about the brand, to understand the brand pillars, and, you know, happy to even like plug in some type form, like masterclasses into the show notes for people to get a look. And then I guess, like, after that experience of, you know, of course, like I said, upcoming order emails, like wildly important for kind of what I said earlier.

29:06You don't want to make it transactional. You also want to segment that flow, which a lot of brands don't do by order cycle, so that you can, you know, control the content that people would experience and like get from month one to month two and month two to month three, month three to month four, and so on. Because again, like the different, you know, benefits that one might experience month one and month two might be different. And, you know, we don't want to treat everybody the same there. We also, of course, on the win back side, something we're exploring is, you know, most brands will probably just have like a generic 30 day win back flow and whatnot.

29:43Again, I'm just going to focus most of this on subscription related win backs, because that's like where we spend most of our time, we are analyzing like what makes up like a top 10 or 20 % customer. And then we are creating like a more structured like VIP flow for those customers that like, if you really think about it logically, like why would your best customers go down the most generic, like win back experience, right? Because it's not really going to save them as well as it probably could have if you like specifically address the customer as like, Hey, Nick, I know you've been with us for the last four months.

30:14You know, you've been one of our best customers, you know, you're out in LA, blah, blah, blah. And you know, we just want a chance to like chat with you and figure out what went wrong. So then you're setting up, like maybe a customer interview or leading to another survey, we just want to like learn more and connect with those customers before selling them again into something else. Which I think is like, you know, a really strong way to approach winbacks. But yeah, I would say like, if you want to like narrow it down to the most important flows, you know, those are the ones that I would focus on, primarily on the retention side.

30:47Nik:I'm curious, like where, when you do these customer interviews, where do you store and And how do you store a lot of that? Yeah, we, I mean, we record everything, right? And it's not, it's of course like a consent, consensual, right? Like we're, we'll first actually qualify them through like a mini survey. So we'll send out, you know, an email and have them fill out a few questions, make sure that they're the right kind of candidate to interview, make sure they're opting into being recorded. They're most are totally fine with it. And it's actually cool. you'll find that like when you interview customers, especially customers that really like the brand, even if they canceled, a lot of them just like want more product, like, or they just want more kind of like gifts from the brand rather than like money, which is kind of funny because like we'll offer like 25, 30, 50 bucks sometimes to get on these calls.

31:33And they're just like, no, we just want more product. It's kind of cool. But anyway, we're saving all those transcripts with an Otter AI or, you know, one of these other kind of note takers and, yeah, Fireflies. I think Fireflow is actually the best, truthfully, because it has an MCP. Yeah, it just directly integrates with Cloud. And then what we'll do is we'll match back the interview transcripts with what we're also finding in Outer Signal. And then we'll also throw in another layer of customer reviews. And now you have a really intelligent data layer of all this different customer info that's kind of plugged into one system.

32:09And then you can kind of create these really strong ICP segments out of these. and by using or like by like understanding your ICPs, you can have more targeted like ads, more targeted landing pages, more targeted emails, more targeted post-purchase onboarding. Like, I mean, the list goes on, you know, and we're seeing direct lifts and, you know, and how that's like helping. So, yeah.

32:32Nik:Wow, dude, that's so cool. You think of a lot of things that I would never think of when it comes to like running a retention program. What are some interesting insights you found through customer interviews that maybe like change the game for, you know, like, have you ever found insights that you know, you implement something from that, and it just totally changed? That's a good question, honestly. I mean, a lot of, a lot of times, like, again, people are canceling, like, not because they didn't like the product, but, you know, maybe they just like had way too much product. And we found that like, some of the people we'd interview were literally just like, kind of playing like a Santa role, just like literally dishing out all this product to their friends and family.

33:09And so like on on our end, we see somebody canceling, we're like, Oh, man, like something must have went wrong. Of course, nothing really went wrong. But it's like, you can learn more about like the consumption patterns and like, you know, what customers really do care about. Because like I said, again, like, for a strong customer, usually is want more products. It's hard to say like that we've implemented something that's like been a game changer. Like right now, we just kind of, you know, did this first experiment with with one brand, in the last like one or two months. So we're still kind of like piecing together the kind of follow throughs.

33:44But again, like the biggest follow through or like the biggest kind of learning from that experience was just like truly getting an understanding of the customer like ICPs. And by knowing the ICPs, we know exactly, we know exactly, here's one thing actually. We've extracted quotes from those kind of like interviews. And now we're using those quotes across ads, across the website, across emails because now we know like how these kind of customers talk right so now you can like put the brand in the same state of mind or like you could basically like connect with the customer a lot easier once you're speaking their language so that is something directly we're doing right now um but you know more than anything i mean i think like if you can scale something like this of like interviewing you know enough customers like you know it's just going to create more connection with the brand.

34:34But then again, like just more pattern recognition of like what kind of customers you really want to bring in. Yeah, 100%.

34:41Nik:I don't know if you've seen how much the new like voice models have also it's crazy or how good they've gotten. But like OpenAI just released a voice model that can basically hold a conversation and respond instantly with emotion and and like tone of voice and everything. It's nuts. The crazy thing is like, I don't think customers will care that it's AI at a certain point. No, not at all. Especially not if they're going to get something at the end. Exactly. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then before we jump to the next thing, I'm curious, what are the, like, how do you think about campaigns? So like, you know, I used to always, but last time I did email properly, personally was when I was at Hint.

35:20Nik:And we had this massive Excel sheet as a campaign calendar. And it had, you know, social, organic social, paid social, email, website, you know. any sort of like field marketing PR stuff. And that's where we basically centered all of our like moments. And then emails were basically built off the back of that. But I'm curious how you think about approaching campaigns and then coming up with like, what is the content? How do we make sure it's relevant versus just sending slots? So I'll preface by saying we don't manage campaigns for clients right now, but we will, however, help drive kind of like the top level strategy for what we're looking for.

36:00And in working with some of these brands, like some of the, you know, brands like Instant Hydration and, you know, some others that I mentioned, we've done some analysis to find that the, like, there is like an actual correlation between sending out emails, like sending out email campaigns to non-customers and then driving down CAC. so I think a lot of brands will like they won't actually piece together the days that they send these campaigns out to their kind of like broader like non-customer list and you know they're all kind of like in silo like you have Facebook here maybe you have North Beam and like North Beam shows a blended CAC but like you know what we would want to do is put it all into a Google sheet and be like here's all the campaigns we sent last month and then what here's like the CAC on that specific day of the week, or just like literally by day, what was CAC.

36:47And then we would literally, we pulled this now across a variety of brands and almost in any case, the days that we do send out a campaign, we'll see roughly a 10 to 11 % drop in CAC on those days. That's not maybe like, I mean, take that as like anecdotal data, that may not be the same for anybody listening to this show, but it's definitely interesting, right? And so then again, or then of course, that kind of like presents a case for like increasing volume, right? So it's like, if you are seeing if you do this run this analysis, and you find that you actually have lower CAC on these like campaign days, then it's like, okay, which days of the week actually have the most kind of impact on that CAC number?

37:26How like much substantial data do you have here? Is it like just in a, in a one week, one week cohort? Is it a month? Is it several months? When I do this, we're looking back like 90 days at least right to to really put together these like these patterns to make sure that like what we're presenting here is true but then again like i said it's just like a volume game so it's like then we're working with the email team to figure out like you know how do we get out more emails without it being you know destructive to the customer experience or like driving spam we don't want to drive more unsubscribes all of that and that can be handled there is definitely a balance for everybody but i'd say like that's one of the biggest learnings we found for sure on the campaign side.

38:05And then also just like being accountable to specific like top level KPIs and metrics on the email side, such as like orders by new customers, orders by returning customers driven from email, right? So we're actually setting goals, right of like, you know, here's how many email attributed orders we need this month to reach our target for, you know, recurring orders driven from email for that month, because it all ladders up, of course, And so I think like adding accountability there where it's not just accountability of like revenue in a dashboard, because like that's, we all know at this point, like it's just attribution.

38:43So you're never really going to get the best data there. But if you have something like a triple whale or ideally like a North Beam, then it's really easy, like to see which platforms are driving those sales. And, you know, setting like true goals and targets based on like the true kind of historical data.

38:59Nik:Do you have some brands that don't even send any campaigns? They just do? The best brands will send campaigns. So we do, I mean, we certainly have some that are like more resistant because it's like, I don't know. I mean, it's usually a bandwidth function or a function of like not having a good email team. But I would say like, if you really want to do it right, you got to be sending out campaigns. Again, at least you're non-customers because you're just truly like holding yourself back and you're creating like a large dormant list if you don't email them. So yeah. Do you advise any suppression for subscribers?

39:35Nik:Certainly, like I said, so like the majority of the weekly campaigns would not go to these subscribers, right? To the active subscribers. Got it. In most cases, we advise like only a handful of emails per month to ever send to these kinds of people because it's like, again, what is really going to be additive if you think about it logically? Like if you're a brand that has one Euro SKU and maybe some supporting SKUs and you email the customer to go shop again, well, they already have product in hand right now. So it's like, you're just going to potentially get an advance on the LTV, but at the expense of potentially like worse retention, because now they're gonna have too much product, they're probably gonna go churn.

40:11Right? So yeah, no, we want to be careful there. Yeah.

40:15Nik:So, okay. So I'm curious now, I want to talk metrics. I actually don't know what are the metrics to focus on. Like when you're thinking about a retention program as a whole, right? Because like open rate has gotten skewed. I don't know if click rate is ever accurate. Like I know some of the metrics got funky basically. So I'm curious, like what are the metrics to focus on? And then I'm also just curious, how do you not land in the promo tab? Because that's what everybody's fear is. So I'll give you an answer again, that's not like an email related answer, because like, we don't really spend a lot of time, like reporting on email stuff.

40:48The metrics that we look at from a retention perspective are true or retention. So if you go ask like, 10 founders, what the retention is, a lot of them, or some number of them will probably tell you their subscriber retention, meaning like, for their active subscription customers, what percent of them are still active at the end of every month. And a lot of brands don't know that there's actually distinction between subscriber retention and order retention by subscriber, right? So first things first is educating you or any or the brand is like, order retention is a North Star metric that we're shooting for.

41:22ideally looking at at that on like a monthly kind of like level where it's like what percent of your customers who ordered you know in this month are going to be ordering next month that's like wildly important as it relates to like your payback period right so that's like the the north star for us and then secondly is like LTV of course so like how does LTV change with the order retention improvement or or you know the delta is there you know 30 60 90 120 day three you know full year LTVs, a lot of brands, or a lot of investors care about 12 month and 24 month retention rates. As like, it's obviously a really strong indicator, you have a good product and a good brand.

42:02And I think a lot of brands kind of neglect the longer term retention lens of all the stuff. And there may be like more short sighted of like, how do I force people into a second order with no retail email, you know, it's like, you're probably gonna help recover some of that pack faster, but like at the expense of like, you know, really destroying your customer relationship. you know, for the long term. So we're looking at those primarily. And then we're also looking at churn rate, based on like active churn and passive churn, right, which if you stay SEO recharge, you could find this kind of data in all of those kind of platforms.

42:35Because like, obviously, you know, the more you can drive down the churn rate, you know, of course, in theory, then like the more you should increase your retention. Then we're also looking at churn rate by order cycle, because typically the lower the order cycle, meaning like if you're on order one approaching order two, you're gonna have a lot higher churn rate, right? You know, in most cases, brands maybe have like 50 % retention month one or 40%, or if they're really good 60 or 70 or 80%. But as it you know, as they mature reach like month four, month five, the attrition rate really, really drops really, really levels out, you're seeing sub 10 % attrition month over month, those people, you know, obviously have a lot lower churn rates.

43:13So you don't need to focus on them as much. But yeah, for any kind of newer brand listening to this, your churn rate might be higher. if you have like a smaller, you know, group of like active subscription customers. That's just kind of how it goes. And like the bigger your list, the lower your active turn is probably gonna go. So we're looking at that. We're looking at pause rate, skip rate, you know, save rate across the cancel prevention flow, right? Because like effectively, the more you can drive up that save rate, the more you're saving a customer from canceling. Even if they go to actually skip from that flow instead of cancel, we're still finding that, you know, there's not perfect retention for those skippers.

43:49But even if like 60 % of them go on to place another order instead of canceling at that, you know, prior moment, it's still going to be a win. So yeah, those are like the metrics we're looking at mostly. And then in Klaviyo, I don't really look at it as much, honestly. You know, open rate is, they're all like becoming sort of vanity metrics. But ideally, you have like, a strong ish click rate of like, at least point five to 1%. A lot of brands are skipping lower now these days. Not entirely sure why. but as far or probably because a lot of the bots they're like picking up now. And how to like skip the primary or skip the promotion into the primary.

44:27You just want to use a platform. There's one called Maverick that we use that I really like. There's another one called like MailMind but there's like tools now out there that essentially what they do is they install like a text script at the very bottom or at the very top of your email that to the customer's eyes, they could never see any of this. But it essentially like tricks the inbox provider into thinking that it's like a privacy policy update email that it's like very transactional. And so, you know, because like they're reading the HTML version of the email, right? So like, it's just like a script full of text.

45:00That's all about that type of thing. They're going to think, oh, this needs to be in the primary tab, you know?

45:05Nik:Yeah. Wow. That's pretty crazy. Um, all right. So if I'm a brand and, you know, I've like had this brand for a while, maybe four or five years, it's not like a hyper growth thing, but it's been growing slow and steady. I've got some subscribers, you know, maybe a couple thousand subscribers, but I feel like my retention program is just dead. But I've got all these emails and, you know, I have like some subscribers left. We're still running a little bit of Facebook ads. Like, what do you recommend? How do you, you know, I don't have really a pop-up thing going. I don't have any good, you know, camp flows or I don't have like, you know, I don't have anything that I'm pushing out to subscribers.

45:43Nik:Like, how do you recommend I would re-energize? I mean, that's a tough situation so is the brand still growing or has it just been kind of like you know still growing but like you know mostly flat like maybe five ten percent okay and then they have like a decent like subscriber base you're talking about like email subscribers yeah maybe like 40 yeah 40 ,000 subs in total or basically 40 ,000 emails um you know and maybe like a thousand active subs i mean there's not a lot of work with there truthfully because like 40 ,000 emails there's not a lot in the grand scheme of things yeah you know it ideally you don't end up in that situation where you're not emailing those people for a while yeah how do you how do you prevent from becoming like a zombie just having a zombie crm i mean it's just kind of down to like like having bandwidth ultimately i think is like the biggest thing so it's like if you see that you are losing bandwidth or the team that you're working with is not good and you're not getting the data you want like you don't want to mess around with this stuff because like the longer you put it off the harder it's going to be to like pick back up the momentum go in the right direction you know and like it kind of essentially turns what would be an asset like an email list should be an asset for you but if you have these people just sitting there for all this time they're now essentially becoming more of like a liability or just like a depreciated asset at this point you know because they're not really going to be reliable and in the case of like if you want to go back to them and get them to order at some point you know it's kind of like fighting an uphill battle to be honest with you yeah i'm curious like you work with so many of the fastest growing i think also fastest moving like a lot of the brands you work with are usually the first to try things um you know and and you work with just real killers um and so i'm curious like what kind of what patterns do they have that you learn from or you admire or you yeah i mean i could just tell you like straight up from the brands at the top the reason they're at the top the reason get to the top faster than anybody is literally just speed of execution and the highest quality of like expectations for work right there's like you know you can't get to a level of success of reaching 100 million dollars a year if you don't try and test you know at the highest velocity that you can right so if you you know on the retention side we almost approach it like zero where it's like what kind of tests can we implement and track like month over month week over week that are leading to improvements in retention and that further only compounds with the more growth that comes in, it can only increase the speed of which we're obviously like collecting the results of these tests.

48:18And then of course, now when they work, it just further then compounds that like you're now bringing in healthier new customer cohorts, right? And so I think like in working with these brands, there's just like a high level of like pressure and expectation to continue pushing the boundary because you don't get to the top without testing a ton of things and you don't stay at the top without, you know uh you know continuing that right um and like i feel like everybody plays this game of like copying each other you know in e-com like you just see somebody doing and you think it's like working and it's just not the case i could just tell you like there's i mean you know this probably better than i do like certainly there's elements you could take inspiration from from some of these big like idol brands but you know like a grun's buy box is like a perfect example right like i've tested the grun the grun's buy box across a number of brands and it's like not worked, right?

49:05So it's like, maybe just works for their audience not going to work for you. So you have to get creative. And it really requires having the right people in house or like through kind of agencies to, to give you that insight of like, what might work. I mean, I think that's been the biggest thing. And then also just AI usage, like, again, the brands at the top, are really kind of instilling this like, mindset of like, you know, you, whatever you think you are, in terms of like how fast you are, how good you are. You are not using AI enough. And you alone versus somebody who's maybe like 70 % as good as you, but who knows how to use AI like 100 times better than you, they're going to beat you every single day of the week, right?

49:46So if you could compound that across an entire company, across all of employees, all of the contractors, whatever it might be, of just people who are savages using AI the right way, then now you've like drastically increased your output you've drastically increased the level of like creativity and knowledge that now you have access to versus like the brands that are like you know more agnostic or just are like you know we'll get to it or we use it for like chat related questions like if you're just using ai right now for chat like just like going to ask a couple questions which i do here and there it's not really going to be nearly as useful as somebody who's like given their AI like a shit ton of context on the business and constantly feeds it that data.

50:28So it has that constant loop of like learning. Like the Cody example is fantastic. Like it's literally plugged into all of his channels. So it knows the heat map data, it knows the Google Analytics data. It knows like everything it would need to know to give you really solid output. So I think like that's how brands at the top, obviously even Jones Road, they're huge now, you know, are approaching this type of, you know, approaching their work.

50:53Nik:So yeah, fully agreed. I think you're right. Speed of execution is something that I always see. And also like willingness to just try stuff, you know, even if it's not like on brand or, you know, too polished or whatever, but just like going out and trying things. And the way that algorithms work and the way that the speed at which you can have feedback loops, like there's no reason to not test the whole volume of things and let the data decide, you know, what to really narrow down. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Cool. Well, wow, it's already been 45 minutes. Is there anything you want to finish on anything you want to make sure gets across or like, you know, as people are building out their retention businesses, maybe now starting to think about some of the things you mentioned that were really interesting, whether it's gifts on a delay, whether it's those four emails post purchase, whether it's, whatever it may be, like anything that comes to mind.

51:51Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately it's just like, don't think of retention through a lens of a single channel or two. Retention is a very holistic function that touches so many different aspects of the business for that matter, probably every aspect. We didn't even talk about customer service, but customer service can be a huge lever or a huge detriment to retention. We've seen it on both ends, right? So basically, let's say a subscriber reaches out to your brand is like, I want to go cancel, right? The really friendly brands are like, okay, you're canceled, like, just like that, right. And that compounds pretty significantly.

52:26When you look at the retention data, or the churn data, you can see churn by like admin, right? I like basically like customer service agent or churn by user. And so ideally, the, the distribution of like, churn events mostly comes from like, a user churning on their own rather than like a customer service agent, like canceling for them. The reason for that is we can first collect like a reason for cancellation over customer support, and provide a treatment, right? Like, you know, respond back to the customer with empathy rather than just like, transactional related, like macro, like people hate when they know something's like a macro, you know, I get it sometimes.

53:07And I'm just like super pissed off. Not to say that you should like have all of your agents like handwrite every single message, but it's like, maybe there's parts of the message or even just the first line of the message that's like, you know, directly at that customer for that customer. And so we'll like collect the reason and then we'll give them sort of like a save offer through customer support. If they don't want it, then we're saying, Okay, no worries, you can go cancel your subscription with our, you know, our self serve platform, our self serve portal, here's a link to go log in and do that on your own.

53:39And now we know that they have to go log in and to go through the entire your cancellation prevention experience. So there's still a percent that we're going to save them there. So I just say like, as a very quick tip, you run a subscription brand. You definitely want that to be more so your strategy than just like quickly canceling somebody. What else? Product. I mean, like I think goes without saying, like if you don't have a good product, even though most founders are very biased that their product's amazing, I'm not here to say it's not or, you know, your product's not good, but it's like, you know, just primary example, working at Feastables when I was hired, I mean, they brought me in because retention was really bad, right?

54:15And retention for a chocolate brand will never be as high as retention for an AG1 or an iMate, right? Because like that's like a daily supplement versus like a chocolate bar. So you have to first understand there's like ceilings to retention that, you know, some brands based on the category they're in will just never have the same retention. And you just have to know that. But you can still reach the top level of that bar, right? Through like the right kind of work and the right strategy. So at Feasibles, we learned that like only 3 % of our audience cared about Better For You chocolate, right?

54:45And, you know, that was probably the biggest unlock to redemption we've ever discovered where, you know, it led to a reformulation in the product where it was mostly now like milk chocolate based rather than like dark chocolate. And then we had like the full rebrand. And after doing that and putting in the time to do that, almost immediately the cohorts that were coming in were significantly higher in terms of retention and customer quality. We're seeing like over 100 % increase in retention across like the first few months after order, after their initial order. So product's huge. Don't discount that.

55:17And don't do these like shady tactics that force rebuild people into a second order. If you want to, you can. I mean, you're definitely gonna see higher retention on month two, but you typically see a significant drop off on month two to month three. So there's a lot better ways to do that stuff. But yeah, I mean, I guess that's kind of it. I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to.

55:40Nik:A lot of gold here. A lot of gold. Amazing. Well, thanks for coming on. How can people find you? Where can they email you or reach out if they want to, you know. Yeah, they can visit the website, BoringEcom.com. We call it BoringEcom just because like retention is typically far more boring than growth. But, you know, it's the stuff that we love doing. You can find my LinkedIn, Joseph Siegel. Find my Twitter, Ecom at underscore, what is it? Ecom underscore Joseph. Yeah, find me chatting online. Feel free to reach out and, you know, happy to help. Amazing. Thank you, Joseph.

56:13Nik:Thanks for listening. We'll be back next time to cut through the noise on CPG, retail, and e-commerce. If you enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend? And be sure to subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss the next one.

56:37Thank you.