#457 — More From Sam: The Epstein Files, The Newsom Factor, Don Lemon's Arrest, AI Market Disruption, and More

0:28Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. what we're doing here, please consider becoming one. Okay, we're back so soon again with another episode of More From Sam. Hello, Sam. Hey, good to see you. Yeah, good to see you as well. Before we begin, I just want to run through a little housekeeping. I want to apologize to all those in Dallas and Austin this week for having to postpone our shows due to a family medical emergency. We have rescheduled those shows for May 20th in Dallas and May 21st in Austin. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused, but in time, I'm sure Sam will share more.

1:02I don't know, Sam, if you want to say anything quickly now, or if we should just move on. Yeah, it's, um, and this is the thing, as you know, that I really hate about live events. They're like the one thing that if life goes haywire, it's really difficult to cancel or reschedule. Now, I've been to events, you know, my own events where people have come up and said, I mean, I think I was, there was one in Vancouver or Toronto, and a couple came up and said They had traveled from Australia for the event. And obviously, that's just amazing to hear and wonderful. But I think of those people on the rare occasion that an event has to be rescheduled or canceled because I know there are people who are just coming out of a hotel expecting to go to an event in Dallas and they're getting their email or not seeing their email that it was rescheduled.

1:47So that just gives me serious brain damage. And it was not likely that we canceled this. but yeah, I've got a family member who had to go in the hospital yesterday and I don't want to get into private details, but it's a big deal and it's, you know, it's stable at the moment, but it's very good that I'm in town. So. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that. We are still coming to Portland and Vancouver in March and then Toronto, DC and New York city as well in May. If you want to get tickets, you can find all that information at samharris.org. Also, we talked about the waking up app last week, getting featured in the Apple store.

2:21Things continue to heat up there again. Thanks in part from that Apple promotion. But I make this joke often. I think this podcast and media in general makes everyone crazy. And then we sell the app that offers the cure. We're kind of like the mafia over here. But seriously, if you're listening to this podcast and you feel unsettled anyway, you'd like to learn how to fix that. Go to the app store and you can download the Waking Up app. And if you can't afford it, you can get a free account. If you can pay, please do that. But if you can't, don't worry about it. You can take it for free. And also while I'm just talking about that, we don't offer free accounts over here in the podcast anymore, but we still offer steep discounts.

2:57So if you can't afford to pay the subscription price, there is a button on the right side of the subscription page just under Sam's picture that reads for more pricing options. Click here. So click there if you need a scholarship. I think there are a few additional pricing options. Okay, with all that out of the way, we've been saying the Epstein files were going to be a nothing burger and it appears we may have gotten that wrong. Where do you want to start, Sam? Well, it turns out that I'm in them, which I was not anticipating. So we should talk about that. Well, you don't need to start there.

3:25We can come back to that unless you want to start there. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess, well, you know, we're going to make light of this because, you know, it's kind of funny the way I'm in them, but I don't want there to be any confusion around, you know, how I perceive the larger issue here. I mean, I'm not, obviously nothing I'm about to say is going to make light of what a monster Epstein was and how good it is that, I mean, in my view, at least, that the files are coming out. And, you know, obviously anyone who participated with his, in his actual crimes deserves to be prosecuted and all of that.

4:01And I think we're probably going to differentiate the degrees of culpability that we perceive insofar as we've seen what has been released in this recent tranche. Because I think there's a fair amount of confusion around just how implicated people are. But obviously the man himself was awful and he did awful things. And there are people who enabled those things or participated in the abuse and trafficking of young girls. And it's just, you know, we want nothing but justice for those people, et cetera. And I also don't mean to make light of the people who are like me in these files in a way that is peripheral to one or another degree.

4:36And it may be properly fucking up their lives and reputations because people are not disposed to differentiate the degrees of culpability, et cetera. So, you know, I know, I'm sure I know many, many people who are mentioned in these files because now I see how, you know, how the network is kind of strung together based on these email chains. And, you know, some of them are, might really be sweating it out for no real reason, except they have institutions that are, may want to fire them as a result of, you know, some weird implication that may be meaningless, et cetera. So I don't mean to make light of any of that, but I'm going to make light of my own situation because I got a big laugh out of it last night.

5:16So. Yeah. Well, do you want to start there? Do we want to kind of talk about how there are gradations here? I'll start wherever you want. I just think we should go back to the idea that there's a spectrum here and how this is very similar to me too at a moment when, you know, someone like Matt Damon had early on said that there are gradations to this. There's a difference between slapping a girl in the ass and raping somebody, and he just got killed for that. I mean, obviously early on, everybody wants to lump everybody together. And here, Epstein is the Harvey Weinstein, and we really need to put everybody on a spectrum and be clear-eyed about this.

5:50And I didn't know if you wanted to set that up, what that might look like to you. Well, I guess, again, I don't consider myself a deep student of what has been released or the reporting that's been done on Epstein and his victims and the specifics of all his crimes. So, I mean, this is kind of like a high-level reaction to what I've seen, which is typical of scandals like this, though, which is to say people don't tend to want to differentiate gradations of guilt. Well, first, I mean, I think you, I forget the words you used, I think you differentiated, you know, criminals from pigs, from jerks, from...

6:24Or people with poor judgment, right? Yeah. And I think there's all of that. So yeah, I mean, I do think it's a little too soon to vindicate the proper conspiracy theorists, you know, the Pizzagators, the QAnon lunatics, who really are lunatics. I mean, when you look at the rest of what they have claimed is true, I mean, even if the worst allegations about Epstein or the worst assumptions about Epstein and his network are true, this does not redeem Pizzagate or QAnon. I mean, those people are just mad. But I think we should be slow to imagine that there are a ton of guys out there who want to have sex with 13-year-olds.

7:06From what I've seen, and I don't even imagine that of President Trump as much as I'm capable of imagining the worst about him. I mean, I think he is just a genuinely awful person and a psychopath. You know, I would be surprised, again, I think there are yet 3 million more documents that have not been released, and presumably those are being held back for some reason, some strategic reason on the administration's part. So perhaps there's worse to come for Trump, but I would find it difficult to believe or to assume that he's the sort of guy that if you put him on an island and handed him a 13, 14-year-old girl, that's the kind of situation he wants to be in sexually.

7:46I just, I mean, I don't think that, I think that's a pretty rare person who shared Epstein's proclivities, right? So my assumption about all of this is still, you have a bunch of guys who are eager to, you know, cheat on their wives or to sleep with young, beautiful women who they don't necessarily want to be seen with in public, but these young, beautiful women are not underage for the most part, right? So you have these, I mean, and we can be very judgmental about this behavior, sure, but it still strikes me as extraordinarily unlikely that there are many people who are guilty the way Epstein was of, you know, targeting underage girls, knowingly targeting underage girls.

8:27I just think that's, that would be a surprise. And, you know, obviously awful and worth, and because how it's so awful, it is worth investigating to the last line of these emails and by all means find all these people. But I just, I will be surprised if we find a lot of those people. What will not surprise me is to discover that people like, you know, Donald Trump and Bill Gates and all the other people who are named are happy to find themselves on airplanes or islands or anywhere else with, you know, 20-year-old Russian models who are eager to sleep with them because they're basically functioning like prostitutes and these guys are pigs.

9:03That would not surprise me. So that's what I'm certainly expecting we're going to find evidence of. And that, in many cases, that's probably embarrassing enough, especially given that many of these guys had relationships with Epstein that were deep enough and long enough such that you can't believe they didn't know what he was into. And I don't believe that Trump was ignorant of Epstein's actual appetites and behavior because we have it from his own mouth. Or he said, you know, some say he loves beautiful women as much as I do. And, you know, his are on the young side or something like that. The only thing that could mean is that Trump was aware of, because Trump's conquests were surely young enough so that when he's talking about the young side, he's talking about what Epstein was actually into.

9:50So I think Trump can probably be hung based on the extent of his friendship with Epstein. I trust that could all be forthcoming. But again, I would be surprised if Trump is the sort of guy who wants to sleep with a 13-year-old. That would surprise me. Right. I think you're right. The awareness factor, when people knew and what they knew will come into play. But there is a difference between what Epstein was doing and piggish behavior. Yeah, a huge difference. I mean, again, it's not to say that the piggish behavior isn't going to be enough to destroy some reputations because you have guys who are cheating on their wives, et cetera.

10:26And... But that's not what this is all about. I mean, that's not... No, but the thing that it's about, in addition to Epstein's crimes and anyone else who's participating at that level, what it's about is a network of very rich, very connected, in many cases, very smart people, many of whom you have to assume knew about his crimes and tolerated an enduring association with him, you know, under the shadow of that knowledge. And that seems like a, you know, a kind of culpability that a lot of people are getting hammered for now. You don't think it's possible that he had two operations going, one that was more secretive for himself?

11:05At the beginning, I suggested that, but I just think that I think a lot of people knew that they knew about his earlier conviction. They certainly knew when the big story broke in 2018 and they maintained a friendship with him and they hung out with him enough to know that, you know, he was into, you know, 14 year olds or whatever he was into. I mean, so. You really, you really think they knew that it was some sort of rumor around there and they hadn't seen it and they just kind of looked the other way because there was convenience there. And, you know. Again, I do not consider myself especially well-informed about, I mean, I've not gone down this rabbit hole to know just how many allegations there are and what they're like and just how plausible it is that it could all have been hidden.

11:46I mean, you're talking about people who, you know, in many cases who went to his island, who went to his ranch in New Mexico, went to his house many times, were on his plane. If you're imagining that he kept two sets of books sexually so carefully that he just, you know, he always knew to be with a girl 18 or above in the presence of normies and then, you know, let his pedophile freak flag fly in the presence of other freaks. And he kept all that straight. That seems a little far-fetched to me. Again, I think Trump's statement about he likes him on the young side is absolutely damning. Right. But just because Trump knew doesn't mean someone like Bill Gates knew.

12:28I mean, it's entirely possible that people are on these trips and they didn't see anything. And I mean, just the explanation to me makes more sense that someone like a Bill Gates just maybe heard rumors or it just, it makes sense that he'd be willing to look the other way and just shrug it off to some rumor. I don't think he would have seen it or witnessed it. I just have a hard time believing that he would continue to put himself in this guy's presence if he saw that, if you really knew. I have a hard time believing that in many, many cases. I don't have a hard time believing that in Trump's case, given what a pig he is.

13:05But yeah. And this is, so I mean, like, let's perhaps just jump to my case now, which I've spoken about on the podcast before, which is I met this man exactly once, as far as I know. It's totally possible I was at some kind of, you know, party or dinner party, you know, at a TED conference, very likely, where he was also in the room, but the only time I'm aware of having met him was at a lunch at Ted that had maybe 12 people at it. And I described the immediate impression I got, which was that he was a colossal douchebag because he had a very attractive young Asian woman on his knee, kind of bouncing along on his knee during the whole lunch.

13:44And it was pretty clear they weren't newlyweds or newly engaged or people who just were going to spend the rest of their lives together and just couldn't be apart for 10 seconds. I guess there's some perhaps romantic version of this is not invidious. But the scene I saw was of a guy who was with a woman who was at least 30 years younger than him. Again, zero implication that she was underage. I mean, she seemed like she was probably in her early 20s, but just very young for him. And also, he was, the way he was relating to her, he was as a kind of, you know, accessory. You know, it was just a weird sugar daddy vibe where he thought he was coming off like, you know, Cary Grant, and he was, you know, he was coming off like a total sleazebag.

14:25So that was the impression I formed of him. And as far as I knew, that was my only interaction with him ever. And now we discover that he had sent me an email inviting me. I mean, do you want to take it now? Do you want to read that email? Yeah, let's start with this. So this is what was discovered. Epstein to you, Sam, we met with John Brockman at the TED event. I thought you might enjoy a dinner with Woody Allen Chomsky and me. It should be fun. What do you write? By the way, this is May of 2015. What do you write back? Oh my God, you could have been killed for this. You said, only if we film it, smiley face.

14:59Oh my God, how bad this could have been. Oh my God. Only if we film it. Meanwhile, this guy's head must've been like, he must've been like, how does he know? Does he want in on the cabal? So he writes back, are you ever in New York? You write back, no plans at the moment. I guess then maybe the final one, which this really, I mean, you could have been in trouble had he not exonerated you with this. He said, I just finished your reading, reading your Chomsky email exchange in arts, I guess, letters. I now understand your film it comment. I spent quite a lot of time. I mean, do you want me to read the whole thing?

15:36I mean, you can. I mean, this is so. If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at SamHarris.org. Once you do, you'll get access to all full-length episodes of the Making Sense podcast. The Making Sense podcast is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. And you can subscribe now at samharris.org.