How To Teach Peer Feedback To Your Directs

0:00Welcome to Manager Tools. This is Sarah. And I'm Mark. Today's podcast, how to teach peer feedback to your directs, part one of one. As always, our content has been crafted by humans, and we are certified by Proudly Human. The questions this cast answers are, how can I help my directs improve their relationships? How can I teach my directs to give feedback to their peers? How can I reduce drama and tension among my team members? If you want answers to these questions and more, keep listening.

0:38Manager Tools is crossing the pond, and we're bringing everything with us. On November 24th in London, the Effective Manager Conference, the Effective Communicator Conference, and the Effective Senior Manager Conference come together in one of the world's greatest cities. If you're a manager or leader anywhere in Europe who has been waiting for an in-person Manager Tools event without a flight to the U.S., this is it. Individual seats and team options available. Register now at manager-tools.com forward slash London. All right. So, Mark, today we're talking to managers about how managers can share their knowledge.

1:25the knowledge they're learning from us with their directs. Right. And folks, if your directs themselves are not managers, which they may not be, then they may also not know what the core principles behind giving feedback are. And they probably don't know how to give peer feedback. So today we're helping you teach them. Yeah. Look, all managers have had to deal with conflict among the directs. If you have an unstable or unprofessional team, it can seem like all that you do, just dealing with the mess. You know, there's an old saying, it's hard to remember you're there to drain the swamp when you're up to your waist in alligators, right?

2:08And sometimes those alligators are complaining, whining, fighting, disagreeing, throwing each under the bus directs, right? One of the fundamental drivers of team conflict, though, is that we don't train people on how to deal with conflict or even how to show appreciation to their peers in a professional way beyond a thank you card or saying thank you. And thank you is great, but it's not sufficient in a professional environment. it. For some directs, what they think they know is that they should go to HR and complain when they have poor relationships with their peers. But part of our jobs as managers, this is especially true for frontline managers, is to teach the basics of professionalism, the basic rules of how you comport yourself in a human organization.

3:03And that means learning how to give professional and appropriate feedback to their peers. Exactly. All right. So our outline for today, we've got two points for you. The first is the manager tools peer feedback model. And then secondly, of course, how to teach it to your directs. And by the way, Sarah, I have to tell you, I wrote this cast because I had a manager come up to me at a recent client event and say, Mark, you know, a bunch of people here in the session don't know you guys, but I do know you. I've been listening for years. I'm the one that talked to my boss. She talked to the COO and he, you know, they were the ones that reach out to you and so on.

3:43And I have a question. You know, I listened to the peer feedback cast years ago and I've been using it pretty effectively with my peers, right? It's just a simple, short way to share things they do well or things I'd like them to consider maybe changing. And I want to know, can I teach my directs that? And I said, well, yeah, of course you can. Sure. And he said, well, I didn't know. I thought maybe the peer feedback cast was only written for managers, that it only worked at the manager level. Oh, sure. Yeah. Because it was a manager tools cast. Yep. And I said, oh, gosh, you know, that this is a classic case where now that we have career tools, manager tools and executive tools, there's stuff that applies at all levels and there's stuff that only applies at certain levels.

4:35You know, I told Mahesh, the CEO of Analog Bits, I was there last week and we were doing an effective manager session. And I said, look, I'm going to talk to you a little bit about executive stuff because some of you, they had several directors in the room and people who reported to Mahesh. And so I wanted to give them, I actually bled into some effective senior manager stuff, which is essentially executive stuff. And it's sort of a bridge between manager and executive. And, um, I said, you do realize Mahesh that you are both an executive and a manager. And he kind of raised his eyebrows. Mahesh is a very, uh, a very good communicator.

5:17He's a high I and high D he's very friendly. Uh, you can read his emotions on his face. And he, he said, no, I'm an executive. I'm the CEO. I said, no, no, no, you're both an executive and you're a manager of the people who report to you. So in other words, when you're an executive, like if you were to come to the effective executive conference, you would learn about the systems that run human organizations, strategy, operations, and people, right? But as the boss, I hate to use that word, but as the boss of his directs, yes, the direct manager of his directs, we assume you'll do one-on-ones and feedback and coaching and delegation or run your meetings a certain way and so on.

5:56He says, oh, yeah, I get that. So it's one of those things where sometimes people don't understand the striations in the organization and what applies. And at first I was like, my first thought was, how can you not know that? And then I realized we weren't clear enough. Yeah. We just weren't clear enough. I don't know. I don't know what the dates were. I don't know when the peer feedback podcast was released, but we may not even have had career tools yet. Oh, that could be. Yeah. Yeah, we didn't start, 2005, we started manager tools, career tools didn't start until 2008. Yeah. It was an outcome of the global financial crisis.

6:32Yeah. We realized people needed more career advice. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. Okay. So that takes us, folks, again, to the manager tools peer feedback model. And this model is exactly what it says. It's a model for delivering feedback, positive or negative, to one's peers. If you've got peers, this model will work for that interaction. Which unless you're in a very small company, everybody does. That's exactly it. Yeah. And it's different from the manager tools feedback model because the original feedback model was built for managers giving feedback to their directs versus peers giving feedback to peers.

7:12And there's a necessity for the model itself to be different because giving feedback to a direct involves, in ways, manager tools' role power and the responsibility of that manager for improving the behaviors of their directs, for improving and or sustaining performance, for example, in ways that peer, the peer interaction does not necessitate, and thus the model itself must change to fit the situation. And if somebody's new to Manager Tools and you haven't listened to the feedback cast, we encourage you to do it. If you're new and you haven't listened to our basics set of casts about one-on-ones and feedback and coaching delegation, then we encourage you to do that.

8:00But I'll give you an example. Imagine talking to one of your peers and saying, hey, can I give you some feedback? And they say, oh, okay. They'll look at you funny if they've never heard of it themselves. and you say, when you do acts, it's not helpful for me. Can you change that? Well, okay. First of all, asking is going to throw them off. Yeah. Immediately it's like, okay, where are you going with this? Right. Right. There's a reason you do it as a manager, which we don't need to get into right now. But again, I recommend you listen to that cast. And then at the end, your managerial authority allows you to say, can I ask you, can you work on that?

8:38In other words, I'm expecting a positive response. Right. I'm looking for improvement here. Yeah. You can't do that with a peer. And how do we know that? Because we tested it. Somebody came to us years, somebody came to me 35 years ago and said, we're loving this manager tools. Actually, it was Horsham and Company's feedback model, but we just called it the feedback model because we were only delivering it to clients. There was no public availability of the work we were doing. There was no podcast. Right, that the manager tools is built on. And so they said, we tried using it with peers and it didn't work.

9:19Okay. And I said, yeah, no, I could have told you that. Wasn't really built for that. Yeah, we need a peer feedback model. So I said, I'll make you a deal. I'll charge you half price on our next engagement. We had another couple of hundred managers to train. And actually, I think this happened early enough in a horseman company that I was the only presenter at the time. and they said yeah because I was the owner and the presenter and I said okay we'll give you half price and we will try a peer feedback model and it probably took us three or four iterations I only got half price on that next one because he had several hundred managers practicing peer feedback among the managers and then of course I heard later from him by the way I hope it's okay we trained all of our subordinates on your peer feedback model that you finally got right.

10:09And I'm like, yeah, actually you really shouldn't have done that, but that's okay. Long time client, you know, we want people to get better. It's okay. A little bit of IP violation there. Um, but I will say this particular person, Ford motor company came back to me and said, Hey, I want to pay you back for that. I realized now I probably should have asked, we should have paid you a license if you're going to say, Oh, it's fine. I want you guys to be successful. And he says, well, I've got another 350 managers to get trained and I'd like you to train them on effective manager content. Of course, I said, yeah, happy to.

10:42And I'm going to pay you full price. Okay. That's fine. Which 350 managers, you know, it was like 40 sessions. So it was good. I like that. All right. So we're going to talk a little bit here about the model itself. Again, there is a full podcast for the manager tools, peer feedback model. We're going to reiterate it here. But if you want to go back and listen to that original one, go for it also there. So the first step then in the peer feedback model, again, differentiating it from the manager tools feedback model that Mark just delivered is we don't start with a question. Rather, we start with the behavior.

11:17So it's like essentially step two in the manager tools feedback model. We identify the behavior that we've noted. And we use the same opening words, when you, followed by a behavior. Yes, right. And I want to say something here, folks. If you're not familiar, you're probably familiar with some of the popular approaches to feedback. We're not going to get into it here talking about, oh gosh, refresh my memory, sir, the two most popular. Oh, I know, root cause analysis is one. And then also feedback dialogue, both of which we do. sandwich technique. No, you're right. The sandwich technique. Folks, if you don't know, the sandwich technique is if you have negative feedback, you give them positive feedback first and then negative and then some more positive.

12:04You give them a sandwich, two pieces of bread of positives with the meat, the negative in the middle. By the way, we tested that one too. It's hated and it's horrible. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. That's the biggest thing. Look, folks, I promise you, just try it a few times. I tell you what'll happen. You'll give positive and then negative. You say nice things and you'll tell the real reason you're there, the negative, and then you'll say something else positive. And the next time you intend to tell them something that's just positive, they will look at you funny when you stop. And the reason why is they're waiting for the other shoe to fall.

12:37You have led them to believe that every conversation, good or bad, starts with good and then bad comes afterwards in the case of bad. And so they completely disregard this thing on the front, which is the whole purpose of your compliment or your praise or your positive feedback. Yeah. So don't, don't use the sandwich technique, but essentially all of those imply that you should just sit down and have a conversation, revisit things and so on. And I will tell you, we spent, oh, four or five years at, at Horseman and Company trying to figure out how to make feedback effective. And we discovered the thing that made it most effective.

13:16Um, the second most effective thing is the question in the front, But the most effective thing was going right to their behavior in the beginning when you do whatever you did. It is incredible how you ask individual contributors or directs how they felt when the boss says, I want to talk to you about something that happened in the meeting yesterday. The moment they do that, they're worried. And then you start describing the situation. In fact, there's a lot of feedback models that start with you have to set the scene for them. Well, the entire time you're setting the scene for them, they're trying to take a machete through your jungle and cut through to the opening in the jungle where we're actually going to find out, what did I do?

13:58In their head, they're saying, what did I do? What did I do? What did I do? You're talking about the situation or the event or the circumstances doesn't do any good. This may feel, if you've not used the managerial feedback model before or heard about it, this may feel a little abrupt. But when you survey directs on it, people who have gotten the preferred model, they say, no, it's efficient. No, they told me what I did and they told me what they liked about it. Or they told me what I did and they told me it wasn't great. And that's all. So when you really powerful, jump right into it. That's my two favorite words in either of the models, manager model or peer model.

14:35Yeah, agreed. Okay, so that's step number one, the when you. Step number two then is describing the impact. And just like the original manager tools feedback model, you follow the behavior with a description of the results of the behavior. And in this step, just like in step number one, it's the when you step. In step two, it's really the here's what happens step to the model. But you say when you, in step one of this or step two of the manager tools feedback model, but you don't have to say here's what happens. No. It can seem a little wordy, a little formal, a little archaic, maybe. Yeah, which would make sense when we get to the examples.

15:16Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's just those two steps. It's the core of the original model without asking first or asking for change afterwards. We're basically trying to be clear about cause and effect, stimulus and response, input and output. Whatever one of those connected pairs makes sense to you. There's a behavioral cause, there's a behavioral stimulus, or there's a behavioral input. and then there's a result, which is the effect or the response or the output. Exactly. Okay, so I'm going to give you some examples, folks, to kind of put that all together so you could hear what the peer feedback model would sound like.

15:51So, for example, thought you'd want to know that when you get me stuff early, it really helps me out. Or when you include my ideas in your plans, I really appreciate it. It could sound like, hey, you know, when you come in late to our joint meetings, it just kind of throws things off and we get behind a bit. Or, partner, when you pull an all-nighter and brief that well, it sure makes me glad we're working together. Thanks. It might sound like, when you tell Ben he better watch out, it scares him and he becomes less effective. Or, when you tell me that you'll have it to me, but then don't, I end up with egg on my face to the boss.

16:33Yeah, simple. When you followed by, here's what happened. All right, now there's some considerations we want to encourage you to consider here. I guess that sounds weird, considerations to consider, but there you go. I suppose if we were just reading the show notes, that wouldn't be any good. And by the way, we're going to mention it a couple of times coming forward here in the next couple of minutes. There are show notes for all of our casts. And if you're a licensee, if you pay the licensing fee, I think it's a couple hundred bucks a year, you can get all the show notes in fact you can have them mail emailed to you if you want as soon as a show comes out that's especially good for multi-part gas and you can share these show notes with your directs which is really helpful yeah okay so some notes some ideas here to consider we only give peer feedback about behavior okay we don't give feedback about intent or mentality or attitude or beliefs or mindset or feelings.

17:34And that's because, in part, we cannot see or hear or read those things. They're in the mind of someone, the person we're talking to. If you give feedback about these areas, you may be wrong about their mentality. In fact, frankly, most of us are wrong about other people's mentalities most of the time. As well, the other—well, I'll let you go, sir. You go ahead. And folks, what I would say also is more importantly, it doesn't really matter what someone's attitude or belief or mentality is. Really, it doesn't. What really matters is what they actually do. Performance, the outcome of what we're seeing really, is nothing more than aggregated behavior.

18:17Yeah. And look, here's a refresher on behavior because this is not well known. Even if you've heard it before, you should listen again. behavior is only five things at work. The words people say, how they say them, their facial expressions, their body language. And there's another category, the fifth one, called work product, which includes the quality of their work, the quantity of their work, the accuracy of their work, the timeliness of their work, the documentation and safety associated with their work. So every email you send is a behavior. Every PowerPoint you create is a behavior. Yeah.

18:56It's easy almost as if you can see it and hear it, it's a behavior. Yeah. If you can't see it and hear it, it's not a behavior, but it's a little bit more than that. It's more of a, when Mark and I discuss what someone did, we have to have no doubt in our mind that we've got the exact same impression. Yeah. Right? It's, hey, that person interrupted another is a behavior. But that person was rude, not a behavior. Because I might think they were rude and Mark might be like, oh yeah, no, totally. That's absolutely called for. Right, how do you interrupt? Yeah, how do you interrupt? That's just how he is.

19:34It's nothing to me. So we have to have the exact same impression of that thing they did. And I just want to continue on this because this next bit is my favorite part of this guidance for you guys. Remember something, folks. The purpose of all feedback is to encourage effective behavior in the future. Okay? Feedback is not about the past. We can't do anything about it. When we give a peer feedback, our purpose is to encourage them to be effective in the future. It's not to punish the past or revisit the past or praise the past if it's positive feedback. We can do nothing about what's already happened.

20:16Because all feedback is about encouraging future behavior, whether the past behavior was effective or ineffective, right? Think about that. You made a mistake or they did something good. Because we're encouraging their future behavior, all feedback should be delivered with a positive tone. That's why there's only one model for feedback, whether it's the manager's version or the peer version. It's only one. And all feedback should be delivered in an encouraging tone. In fact, the way I think about it is I think forgiveness first. If I can't forgive the direct for what they did, then I'm not going to be able to be encouraging about the future.

20:55And of course, that's about my mindset, but mindset makes a difference in terms of how you deliver these words and how it sounds to the other person. Mike likes to say, Mike Ozan, my co-founder, likes to say, if he can't chuckle when he's giving negative feedback, whether it's peer or manager feedback, he doesn't give it because he doesn't think he will be encouraging. He's afraid he'll be too directive, too negative, too punishing in the mind of the direct. He's not really trying to punish them, but it might come across as shaming or making the other person feel bad. And I seriously doubt that you can make someone feel bad if you're giving them negative peer feedback if you're trying to encourage them.

21:38And folks, some of the underlying stuff that Mark didn't say but is also true is all of the underlying tenets of all of the other feedback designed to encourage people exist for peer feedback. Yes. Like one, for example. Don't just give your peers exclusively negative feedback. Oh, gosh. Yeah. You're not being helpful. You're just being a jerk. I mean, if you're going to use the peer feedback model to give feedback to your peers, and sometimes you want it to be negative feedback, then you also have to be giving positive feedback to them as well. So that's one. Another one that kind of underlies the whole thing in my mind is relationship.

22:23If you have an abysmal relationship with one of your peers, you do not get along. They do not enjoy your input. And you're not doing anything to ensure that they more positively receive your input. I'm going to think twice about whether or not you should ever get negative feedback to your peer. You've got to have a trusting relationship. Yeah. Will they be encouraged by the words you say? Yes or no. Because if they're just going to think you're poking them in the eye, maybe just leave it left unsaid because you're not encouraging more effective, positive future behavior. You're just being a jerk who's pointing out mistakes.

23:01And this is why in the Manager Tools Trinity rollout, we do one-on-ones first so the manager can start building trust so the direct will believe that the manager has the best interest of the direct at heart within the larger organizational system. And then after that, we recommend they do eight weeks of only positive feedback before they get around to negative. And all the managers are always saying to us, gosh, I want to do it faster or better. Well, I'm sorry. It takes nine months to have a child. then some things take time. You're not going to snap your fingers and magically change your relationship.

23:35You can't just say, I'm your boss, so you have to hear everything I say and take it totally appropriately and reasonably. Some people aren't built that way. And that's okay. And so you have to work with them and work on the relationship building trust. Yeah, exactly. Hey, everyone. This is Alio Zan here with the Manager Tools team. I wanted to take a moment to thank you. Thank you for tuning in to our Manager Tools podcast and for being such an important part of this community. For every download, every share, every conversation sparked by something you've heard here, that's exactly what fuels our mission to help every manager be effective and every professional be productive.

24:17We're also committed to growing this community by building real connections and supporting your career for the long haul. Please share with a colleague, family member, or friend to help us further that mission. And if you ever have questions or feedback, email us at customerserviceatmanager-tools.com. We'd love to hear from you. Now that we've talked about the peer feedback model, how to teach it to your directs. And folks, the easiest way to start teaching the peer feedback model to your directs is to use the manager tools feedback model first with your directs. Yeah. Now, the reason that we say that is this is going to teach them the core of the model, which is behavior and outcome.

25:05Yeah. And if you do it well with an encouraging tone, they'll respond positively to feedback, making them more willing to try it with their peers. When I, as a manager, give Sarah feedback, not that she's my direct report, I'm going to try to do it in an encouraging tone. If she receives that from me, I'm setting an example of how she can deliver it to her peers. Yeah, exactly. So let's take the rollout of peer feedback step by step. We're going to assume you haven't briefed your team on manager feedback, just to be comprehensive. If you've briefed your team on manager feedback, you've been using the manager tools feedback model.

25:45And in the next series of steps that we give you here, you can skip right to step number four. Yep. So step one, brief your team on the Manager Tools feedback model, telling them you intend to start talking to them more frequently about their performance. We have an entire cast about this, okay? If you're a licensee, print out the show notes for the Manager Tools feedback model, and perhaps some of the related ones, and share them with your team in advance of the briefing. Then explain the four-step model. Share some examples with them. Tell them the purpose of feedback is to encourage effective future behavior.

26:23Try to help them understand. It won't be easy, folks. Going back to our conversation earlier about sandwich technique or feedback dialogue or what's the other one? Rue cause analysis. Rue cause analysis. Thank you. The folks that you're talking to have learned all of these bad ways of giving feedback. they're unlikely to be knowledgeable about the science of feedback or the intent of feedback and the purpose of feedback. So your role in that really is to help them understand the purpose and why we're using this model versus those other terrible ones. As you're rolling out the manager tools feedback model, again, this is a precursor to the peer feedback model, which you want them to use, your directs to use with each other.

27:09Remember to explain to them again, feedback is by definition, both positive and negative. And yet still to this day, 35 years after I learned that, is it 35? It may be 40. If you say feedback, everybody assumes negative. Immediately. And that's because bad managers have only been given negative feedback because they don't know the power is in the positive feedback. They've probably been fed a steady diet of only negative feedback and what's more poorly delivered, like the sandwich technique. To make this point sharply, tell them that you will be using the model for only positive feedback for the first eight weeks you use it.

27:46They need to get used to it and you'll need to practice before you start giving negative feedback. If you jump right to negative feedback, you will deliver the model poorly because you're not comfortable with the words yet. Okay. And it will be just like every other manager who has taught them wrongly that feedback is only negative. Folks, the vast majority of things that happen in your organization are good. If all you do is talk about the bad because you've mistakenly decided or you've been taught or you believe that your job is to correct things, which it's not. Your job is to get results and to achieve retention.

28:19If all you do is correct people, you're going to have problems retaining people. Absolutely, you are. Okay, that takes us then to step number three. Roll out the manager tools feedback model of giving feedback to your directs. Now, our Trinity rollout guidance recommends eight weeks of nothing but positive feedback, to Mark's point a minute ago, before you start using the manager tools feedback model for negative feedback. But essentially, folks, step number three is deliver feedback. Yes, exactly. Simply. Step four, and this is the end of the manager tools feedback model part. Once you've gotten through rolling out both positive and negative feedback to your directs, now you can teach your directs how to give each other feedback with the peer feedback model.

29:06The first step is always to brief your people on what you're going to do, or in this case, what you're going to recommend that they start doing. That follows Horstman's law of managerial change, which is never introduce a change to how you manage your people without first taking the time to introduce them to the change before you make it. And again, if you're a licensee, share this cast show notes with them in advance. Yeah, absolutely. And then ultimately, step number five, explain the two-step peer feedback model. Make it simple. Behavior and result. Tell them the purpose of feedback is to encourage effective behavior in the future.

29:45All feedback is about future behavior. It's not reward. It's not punishment. And because we want to encourage that behavior, we deliver both positive and negative feedback with a positive tone. There's not two models, folks. One model, we use it for both. Yeah. Tell them as well to stick to the behavior. Define it for them. Give them the five. Facial expressions, body language, the words you say, how you say them, and then work product, which is quality, quantity, accuracy, timeliness, documentation, and safety. Explain that despite the kind of feedback that may have gotten in the past, you and they are going to stick to behavior and not attitudes, not mentality, not intent.

30:29Folks, we have a cast called You're Not a Psychologist or You're Not a Psychiatrist. You can't swim upstream into the minds of your directs and magically flip switches, nor can your directs when they're giving peer feedback to one another. And folks, tell them what I mentioned to you earlier. They need to be giving positive feedback to their peers. They can't be giving exclusively negative feedback. Tell them specifically, stick only to positive feedback to your peers for the first two or three months. Tell them that no matter how good they think they are at giving positive feedback, you don't want them giving negative peer feedback yet.

31:07Explain to them that they might discover there are many more positive things going on among the team than they realize. Because if they're going to be giving positive feedback to their peers, they're going to be looking for positive things their peers have done. Yep. And because they need to, because they need to talk about it. And they will be surprised at how many good things their peers are doing that they're probably not noticing because they're blinded by the negatives. Yeah. Step six, track their peer feedback performance. Hopefully you do that yourself in terms of giving manager feedback to your directs.

31:47But this is super easy to do with your directs about their peer feedback performance. Here's what you do. In each one of your one-on-ones, during your portion of the one-on-one, simply ask, has anyone given you any positive peer feedback in the past week? Make a note of who gave who feedback, and perhaps if you want, what it was about. If you want to make it interesting, announce in your staff meeting that you will be rewarding your call how you do that. Maybe it's you buy somebody lunch. Maybe they get a spot bonus or something like that. you will be rewarding both the person who gives the most positive peer feedback and the person who receives the most positive feedback and celebrate individual and team progress on their professional development.

32:34Yeah, absolutely. And do watch for a pair of directs, folks, that are likely friends, trying to game the system by giving each other a lot of positive peer feedback. Going back to Mark's point, if you're going to be giving them a bonus or a lunch, It happens. Tell folks that they can't be exclusively giving one another amongst a pair. Yes. Peer feedback. They need to be diversifying if they want to continue to get credit for that peer feedback. Yeah. And lastly, in terms of tracking things, do your best as you can to check in that the peer feedback is continuing. An ideal way to both encourage and reward the behaviors, and this is one of my favorites and nobody ever talks about this.

33:19is to mention that you will be mentioning it in their year-end performance review. And if you're willing to do so, tell them that when you ask them to start. Let's start talking about behaviors that are going to be recognized in reviews before they start doing it or while they're doing it. What happens is we think of reviews as entirely done at the time of the review, even though we recommend all kinds of techniques in our Hall of Fame cast about how to prepare and write and deliver a review, but let's make it clear on the front end. Yeah. I mean, even if it's just one line to one or two people saying, this person gave more positive peer feedback to anyone else on their team, or this person got more positive peer feedback than anybody else on the team.

34:06Yeah, I love that. That's a huge thing to write on a performance review. That would definitely motivate a lot of the professionals we know. So let's not wait until the end of the year and then have to think back. Let's let them know in advance. Anytime my boss said to me, this is something that's going on in your performance review, it was one of my top priorities. It mattered. Exactly. That's absolutely it. Exactly. Yeah. All right. So to wrap it all up, folks, teaching your team the peer feedback model is a really great way to help them professionally grow. Not only will it improve team performance, but it's also going to improve team morale.

34:43and they're going to be so much more ready to be effective managers, being able to understand the principles of feedback, which you'll be teaching them. So for those of you who are already using the manager tool as a feedback model with your team, well done. This is going to go a lot easier for you and your team and you're sharing this tool with them will help them, will allow them to both grow as peers and professionals as well as managers when it's the time for that. Okay. Thanks, Sarah. Thanks, Mark. And thank you folks for joining us. We hope this one helped you. Now, help us help others and tell your friends.

35:22And of course, follow, rate, and review our podcast. And remember, five stars only, please. Five stars only, please.

35:43Thank you.