Most Agencies Are Flat. Here's Why Neil's Is Still Growing

0:00Eric Siu:You know that feeling when the strategy is done, the brief is written, everyone's aligned, and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content? That someone is you, and it's due tomorrow. Breeze Assistant can help. It works right inside HubSpot. Drafting campaign copy, blog posts, emails, all in your brand voice. All grounded in your actual customer data. So you don't just create content. You create content that converts. Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. So, Will Reynolds is saying that running a business is lonely because we are so often dishonest about how our businesses are doing.

0:38Eric Siu:Agency owners, instead of asking how's business, lead with things like things are tough and be honest about why. That's funny, Neil likes asking how's business a lot. This will give the person on the other side the ability to be real with you too instead of the fake game of good, you. and they say good, even though both of you are struggling to make payroll. I'm saying this because I have had a lot of tough conversations with the agency owners under$2 million and they are looking for a place for their people, but they are oftentimes kind of over it. COVID took a lot out of us. Then AI is a tsunami that they can't swim through, that many can't swim through.

1:15Eric Siu:Be brave enough to be honest. When people say, SIR must be killing it, I'm like, my popularity on LinkedIn ain't correlated to my bank account, dog. And we're fine, but definitely not killing it. Definitely not killing it. Been flat for three, four years. I'll take flat given the environment. But just when one thing starts taking off, another takes a hit, okay? Now it's your turn. You won't want to post about it publicly but if you do, you are allowing hundreds of other small business owners to not feel alone. I know it can be hard to post it publicly but honestly, a lot of people need to see the reality of businesses right now or business right now, not just the loudest voices on these internet streets.

1:51Eric Siu:If you can't do that, promise me this. In private, when people ask you how your business is doing, be honest, and you'll be surprised after saying that to a few people, you'll feel a lot less alone. And when you stop telling people everything is great, which is not true, they are less incentivized to help you because you told them you're doing great. Being honest keeps more eyes and ears on the streets to send you leads and opportunities.

2:11Neil Patel:Yeah, I think the environment's been tough. And I think he nailed it. It's been roughly three to four years where it's been tough. I would say somewhere around 2022 is when things started to turn and become harder and harder. We've experienced it. We haven't seen a downturn like this for a long time. I've been in business for quite a while. I've never seen a downturn this long. I know there's many more people who have been in business longer than me and they may have seen longer downturns. We're seeing it in a lot of different sectors, but not every sector. And when I look at marketing in specific, we used to grow at some cases 100 plus percent a year, literally 100 plus a year at scale, right?

2:51Neil Patel:I'm not talking about a million dollars in revenue or$10 million in revenue. I'm talking about more than that. And we're growing over a hundred percent a year. Um, we're still growing organically. Uh, we're also growing by MNA as well, which helps, but organically we're growing. We're growing even faster because we do MNA, but growth definitely has slowed down. And if I had to give the reason on why we're growing in this market, I would say it comes on to one big reason. For us, it's been international expansion. If you're really tiny in a lot of countries like, I don't know, India or United Kingdom or Germany, whatever it may be, and I'm talking about us roughly, call it four years ago, when we're starting off in a lot of these countries, we're starting from a base of zero.

3:41Neil Patel:In a good economy or bad economy, it's easier to grow when you're at zero because growth can only go up. You can't go more down. So for us, by being global, we are able to add revenue. And we started expanding when the market was bad or the economy was bad, which created opportunities for us because a lot of people were pulling out or laying people off. So we were able to recruit really good people that would have been harder for us to recruit during good times. And I would say that's probably the number one reason we've grown is, you know, just international expansion that's helped on the organic side, combined with, you know, M &A.

4:24Eric Siu:I have some thoughts here, and you'll probably disagree with them, maybe. And then then we can talk about another topic, because I met up with, we should talk about something next. It's one of the best parts of being a founder, and it's not what really people think. And I think you're going to have some stories that you can share with this too, which we'll get to in a second. But my take on this one, because Here's the thing, Neil. Everything you just said, remember, Will said he's been flat for the last four or five years. You have not been flat even organically. Just so everyone knows, too, organic growth means that you're not growing through mergers and acquisition.

4:54Eric Siu:You're growing through on your own terms as the current business that you have. Inorganic means that you're buying other businesses and you're kind of stacking revenue on. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing, too. They're just different terms here. So just to be clear, Neil, the last four or five years, you have grown both organically and inorganically, correct? You haven't been flat at all. Correct. Okay, great. So one thing I'll say is, you know, obviously, I've shared, you know, maybe in 2021 or so when there's a lot going on. It's a very hot environment. That's when I kind of stepped away from the business and things didn't go well, right?

5:28Eric Siu:Things actually went downwards, right? For I would say the next two years or so, right? Until I stepped back into the business. Now, I'm not going to say I'm amazing. I would just say that founders do have, Jason Cohen from WP Engine likes to say that the founders, Neil's a founder, I'm a founder, we have this invisible hammer where you can just make things happen and move very quickly. And so, you know, I would say that we, since I stepped back into the business, we have not been flat, right? We have been growing. The thing that I have noticed, and Neil, I think you can maybe share some stories as well, is that the other agencies that seem to be, like last year, I think we had talked about an agency where we're looking at just acquiring them for free, basically, right?

6:06Eric Siu:Recently, you told me about another one where it would not have been like a big cash outlay, but it would have been a lot of work. So I think we're seeing more and more of that happen right now. Now, on the flip side of this, I'm also seeing this happen with larger agencies. It's like from a recruiting standpoint, like I'm like, why do all these executives want to lead these large agencies? Because after this, Neil, I'm going to go to lunch and then at the mall with a guy that we're trying to recruit, right? And he's like, he understands a lot of things, not just from the agency standpoint, but from the AI standpoint too.

6:36Eric Siu:And so I would just say, forget the AI piece for a moment. As long as you're adaptable and as long as you move quickly, I don't think like, sure, we can say it's been a tough environment. I do think it is. It's been a tougher environment for sure, but I believe that tough times create strong people. And I'm not trying to dismiss that, right? And I'm saying, yes, it is hard. Agencies are doing more poorly than before right now, but this is a time for you to be able to step up and stand out versus the rest, right? Because when Neil's up versus the holding companies, I believe that he wins deals because they're more creative, they're more adaptable, and they stand out.

7:08Eric Siu:And people hire agencies to be creative, to be proactive, right? To be someone that you can lean on. And so most agencies don't do that. Remember a few weeks ago, Neil, I talked about how much I hate some of these agencies. They're just like, they put more work on your plate, and they expect you to just pay them. And so as long as you're someone that takes things off people's plate, then I think you're going to be okay as an agency. because I'll tell you, we haven't been flat since 2023. It's been strong organic growth.

7:37Neil Patel:I'm assuming some things on your end you've declined. You're probably making up organic growth in other sectors. Correct. But the original core business, I would say, maybe growing a little bit, maybe flat, maybe declining a little bit, but the growth isn't there from the original business. If you look at what Will Reynolds is talking about, a lot of people are still doing the same thing that they're doing four or five years ago. And I believe that's why a lot of these people are seeing decline in addition to the economy. Right. Because what Albert Einstein said. Well, I have no idea what he said.

8:13Eric Siu:So expecting change from doing the same thing over and over is a definition of insanity. I'm paraphrasing. Yeah.

8:22Neil Patel:Yeah, I believe you. And people, you know, are like, oh, it's not growing. Things are bad. And I agree things are bad, but people need to adapt and try to figure out how to make them better during bad times. And we typically don't see.

8:35Eric Siu:If you're building an e-commerce brand, you should check out DTC pod hosted by Ramon Berrios and Blaine Bolas on the HubSpot podcast network. They speak with founders, marketers, creators, agencies and platform experts about what it actually takes to grow a direct to consumer business from paid ads and influencer marketing to conversion, email, brand building and consumer trends. I particularly enjoyed their conversations around scaling a brand without losing what made customers care in the first place. Listen to DTC pod wherever you get your podcasts. Do that. All right. So I wanted to take a moment to tell you about my podcast co-host Neil's agency called NP Digital.

9:11Eric Siu:And they work with a whole host of global companies or a global organization. Also, Neil has SEO tools such as Ubersuggest and Answer to Public. All you have to do is go to npdigital.com to learn more. And we'll see you on the other side. You know what I'll say? Neil, I saw a video. I don't know if you saw this video, but there's this guy on YouTube. So this video got 5.1 million views and it somehow came across me. Right. So his face is disfigured. Right. Like I think some fire happened and like he doesn't have like his fingers are gone too. Did you see that video? Like it stumbled across me.

9:41Eric Siu:Like I felt so compelled to actually switch over my account and comment. And what do you think my comment was? My comment was like, dude, this is amazing. You should keep posting. Right. Because the way he started the video was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm done with life. Blah, blah, blah. Right. And he starts the video off with like, I'm tired of this. I don't want to do this anymore. And like, dude, it burns everywhere. Like very disfigured. Like you can barely see his eyes, right? And he's like, look, I don't even have my hand anymore, right? And he's like, but you know what? F that.

10:07Eric Siu:I'm going to keep going. And that is the same thing I would tell anybody that is struggling right now. It is these moments that actually shape you into a much stronger character. And you have good stories to tell. Because I remember when Neil, when I was going through these tough times in 2021, Neil was the first one to call me as a friend to say, hey, I think you should bankrupt it. right? And that was the logical thing to do. But I told Neil at the time, I was like, hey, dude, if I keep going, and it turns out well in the long term, like that's gonna be a good story to tell. And I'm gonna be much stronger, right?

10:36Eric Siu:And I never told my dad this story until recently. He's like, why don't you tell mom and mom and me? I'm like, why the hell would I tell you guys? You guys are just stressed. It's better to tell you guys now. And he's like, so are you stronger now? You're stronger now, huh? I'm like, okay, I'm stronger, right? So I think this is a good moment. Like if you're struggling right now, like how do you double down? How do you cut costs? How do you become a lot more resilient? How do you become more adaptable? How do you go out and get business on your own, right? This is the chance for you to show how good you are as a founder, as a leader.

11:02Neil Patel:Dude, I'm with you. You know, and I think that what we're seeing right now is there's no one way to skin a cat. You can do things different ways. You just got to figure out what works for you. But most importantly, you need to try to be creative and try to actually solve your problems and be proactive instead. And I'm not saying this is what people are doing on LinkedIn, but you can vent and that's fine. And you can talk to people how things are hard, but at the same time, and I wouldn't say these people are complaining just to be clear here, but continually talk about how things are bad doesn't solve the problem.

11:41Neil Patel:You need to actually focus on figuring out a solution and spend the majority of your time there. And I'm not saying is easy and sometimes you won't be able to, but that's where you need to be focusing most your efforts on. Yeah.

11:52Eric Siu:And I think the last thing I'll say about this is like, you know, if it is hard, what a blessing for you to be able to go through this crucible, right? You might, you might think F that right now, but when I look back on it, I look at all the struggles that Neil's gone through, all the struggles that I've gone through, it's shaped us into who we are today. And think about it. Like the reason how companies go from, you know, zero to a hundred K to a million to 10 million to 100 million to a billion, you know, or even beyond that is because these people continue to sit through the mud and they continue to wade through the mud.

12:22Eric Siu:And one of my favorite quotes is from Winston Churchill, if you're going through hell, keep going, right? And, you know, we're not saying, you know, you're going to war or anything like that right now. There's much worse situations. But trust me, like this situation that you're in right now, it has been conquered before. And we believe that you can conquer it as well. So we'll just leave it at that. Okay. So on a more positive note, Neil. So I want you to share some stories around this too. But I met with an ex-employee yesterday. So he started an agency and it's doing like, let's just call it 1 million, 1.5 million, something like that.

12:55Eric Siu:And my whole thing is this is one of the best parts of being a founder. And this is not what most people think. It's like when you see people that have worked with you before and they've gone on and they're doing their own things, like we have another guy that I think his agency is doing like maybe$4 million a year right now. And we still keep in touch. I love keeping in touch with these people. And then, you know, they're, they're like to see them blossom on their own and to see the work, the hard work, the challenge that they've had to go through to get there. It doesn't matter if they're like an executive, another company right now, like I still keep in touch with these people.

13:28Eric Siu:But I think that's our way and your way of, and I'm saying you to the listener right now, it's your way of paying it forward, right? Because the guy yesterday, like he gave me a lot of credit. He was like, you know, you did all these things. You set up the culture. Like I realized like everything that I might have disagreed with at the moment. Like I understand why you did it. And it's a very lonely thing, right? To, to Will Reynolds point. Um, and so, but I'm like, dude, don't even give me the credit. It was you look at you now. Right. And so I don't know that that's like one of those fuzzy things, but it's an, like, uh, these, these benefits people don't really talk about.

13:57Eric Siu:So I'm curious to hear about something from your side.

14:02Neil Patel:I don't know, dude, for, for me, I, most of the people I hang around with, including you and us, I think a lot of this, when I was younger, I thought it was kind of weak. Um, but I, you know, I changed my tune on that over the years. I just think a lot of the people don't have the right mindset. And I think mindset has a lot to do with a lot of this stuff and succeeding in life and progressing and pushing forward, um, and getting through tough times and figuring things out. But for some reason, I don't know what it is. I think mindset is really challenging for a lot of people. People know how to deal with the ups.

14:41Neil Patel:They don't know how to deal with the downs.

14:43Eric Siu:Yep. And actually, the guy I was with yesterday, he's like, dude, I've learned that business is actually the best personal growth machine. So Neil has his own way of learning. I have my own way of learning as well. But one thing we can agree upon when it comes to personal growth is business is the best. Because if you can't beat this level, you don't get to go to the next level. It's just what it is.

15:02Neil Patel:Yeah. And for someone else, It could be business. It could be something else, but... Something creative. Yeah, something creative. Just challenge yourself and don't give up. And I think that is really tough. I know people don't like showing kids Instagram. They say social media is really bad. My daughter's in gymnastics and cheer. So there's this video clip of this father-daughter duo. And I think they own a cheer company. and this kid is really young, maybe around my daughter's age, maybe a little bit younger. She does stuff that maybe people who are six, seven years older are doing when it comes to cheer.

15:42Neil Patel:And you can see her crying and being fed up and the dad motivating her. And I show a lot of those clips from that specific family to my daughter. And I was just like, you see, not everything's easy. It doesn't matter if you think it's easy from the outside and that they're great. Look at the challenges they went through. Look how they keep pushing through. and having that mentality of just don't expect everything to go your way. Don't expect things to go easy. You just got to keep pushing because when you push and people have to experience this, when you actually solve the problem or get to where you want to be or even partially there, it feels really good.

16:20Neil Patel:You get a real strong sense of accomplishment. And that feeling, you know, I don't do drugs. I've never really done drugs or anything like that other than, you know, tynenoles or whatever that you take when you have a headache. But I think, and I don't know for certain, but I believe it's like a high of someone being on a drug, right? And I feel that way when I accomplish things or I close some big business deals or hit new milestones, that hit that you get, I think is a really amazing feeling. And by no means, I'm not trying to tell people to go do drugs or anything like that, but I'm just trying to relate it.

16:58Neil Patel:Like, you know how people say they get high. I don't know what high is like, but for me, when I accomplish something in business, it's a version of high, at least I believe it is.

17:09Eric Siu:So when I was younger, I did try some different drugs and I will tell you what it feels like. So, so it you're correct. Okay. A business win is like hitting a three pointer when you're playing basketball, right? Or like you hit a nice shot when you're playing tennis. It's also the same thing as like, you know, the high from a drug, right? Um, they're all kind of the same thing at the end of the day. Um, and you want to continue to get that high over and over and over, right? And so you should chase the right highs, not the wrong highs is part of what I'm interpreting from this as well, Neil.

17:37Neil Patel:Yes, yes.

17:38Eric Siu:Yeah. So that is it for today. And we will see you tomorrow.