The new way of doing YouTube, The average ROI per content type, Short-form videos don't convert, and more

0:00So you saw the little vlog camera I have, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I mentioned there's a YouTuber named Daniel Dalen, and I believe this format's coming back. So this is the vlog, but you're following someone's journey. And it's literally this guy building his eight figure e-commerce business. Right. And you can, he has like equipment and someone following him around. You and I, at least for me, I don't like someone following me around. I've tried that before, but I'm okay setting a camera over there and shooting like different scenes and all that. And then sometimes I'm mic'd up. It's not, I didn't bring it.

0:26Yeah, I was like, oh, where is it? I didn't bring it. But it's been really fun because the thing is, the things you go through during the day, there are legit challenges. And for people to watch you solve them and then talk about them afterwards, and then you travel quite a bit, right? I travel quite a bit too. It's cool for people to see those scenes, right? And so if I'm just shooting a little here and there and then I'm giving a five or 10 minute summary of my day or whatever and what the key lesson is, those videos, those are kind of taking off now, right? And so that's my experiment. I'm probably going to launch this in January or so because we have a lot of content produced.

0:57And that to me is like, okay, I don't need to be Gary V, but I can be the in-between there. Because the fact of the matter is we have a lot of fun doing our day-to-day. And I think more people need to see it to understand what's actually happening. Because the reality is you and I don't have time to brainstorm the best thumbnail, the best headline, and all these things. And the thing is when you try to hand it off to your team, I haven't seen them do, it's hard to do a good job there too. And you're going to fight with them a lot because of creative control. You want to do things a certain way, they want to do things a certain way.

1:23so I think that might be the in-between we'll see what happens there but if it takes off I think we're going to see a lot more people doing it because Daniel Daylin he's getting like you know I think a couple hundred thousand long form views per month on his YouTube and to me that's like watching a TV show like you watch his journey along the way and why wouldn't you? Yeah I've only tried it out once I was at I believe it's called Collision which is like a web summit someone followed you around me yeah and they tried it at Toronto or at Collision in Toronto So someone was following me around in a recording.

1:55And at first I was like, who the heck is this person? My team's like, oh yeah, we have a camera person that are going to just follow you around for the day. And I was like, dude, no one told me about this. I don't want a camera person following me around. And like, oh, if you're saying anything sensitive, it's us. We can turn it off or bleep it out. I was like, it's not even that. I don't want someone to follow me around. They're like, why? I was like, I just feel like they're in my personal space. I don't like this. So I kept telling the person to turn it off. And then they were trying to secretly turn it back on.

2:23And I was like, hey, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but you're a contractor, right? Yeah. You get paid by us, right? Yeah. And I was like, just turn it off. I'm like, it's my company. So I got to make the decision at the end of the day. And don't worry, I'll still pay you for the day. Like, really? I'm like, yeah, but like, yeah. They're like, and I made him turn it off a few times. Like, dude, you said such amazing stuff this week. Great if it's on camera. I'm like, I don't want my life documented and recorded like this. I don't like it. It's like, what was if other people would like that content and sent to them?

2:53I'm like, I don't care. I don't want it recorded. I just feel this is an invasion of privacy and I don't like this. And they're just like, all right. I'm the same way. I like my space. And so remember Noah? So when I first hired Noah, this is like 2017 or so, great videographer. And so we said it that way and then he was following me around and all that. And then the time I decided to stop is when he almost tripped over and ran into a car, right? I'm like, okay, we're just not doing this anymore. so then we just change it into all in office shots and yeah I think you have to understand what works well for you and we both understand that that just doesn't work out for us some people like it I think you look at some of the creators out there you look at the Hormozis do it I don't know if they like it but they do it Gary Vee still does it he's the pioneer of it I think Cody Sanchez does it as well so to each his or her own just not for us and look those guys and gals are successful and are getting tons of views and they're getting more views than Eric or I.

3:50And it doesn't mean it's good or bad, but there's a different model for everyone and you got to figure out what works for you. You had a good tweet on this talking about what type of content performs well. I know it's not in your list over here, but you want to pull up your Twitter. So I will talk about it as Neil pulls it up. So basically Neil has been, you guys should follow Neil on Twitter or X because his graphs are a lot better now. They're a lot more practical. So it's like, what type of content performs well? here's the average cost and here's the average ROI on this type of content. And I think it's practical for people.

4:23Yeah. So we got together with 41 companies to figure out how much they're spending on content and what they're generating in ROI on average. When we looked at these 41 companies, we analyzed a bit more than 385 ,749 pieces of content. That was actually the exact amount of content we analyzed over six months. And with these people, these are businesses at scale. When I say scale, I'm not talking about 5 million in revenue. I'm talking about minimum 10 million plus in revenue. 10 million was a very bottom amount that we included in this survey or study. And the reason we also had a minimum revenue threshold is they need to have a data and analytics team or be working with an agency or consultant who's helping them with data and analytics because it's hard to attribute and make it exact.

5:10And there is no way that the data is going to be 100 % exact, but it's going to be directional. I'm not talking about necessarily from the cost perspective. That's easy. I'm talking about the ROI perspective because there's a lot of different touches. For example, someone seeing you from social media, hard to track, and then they buy later on. So when we're looking at it, there's different content types. The best performing content type from a cost and ROI standpoint was webinars. Webinars had the highest ROI. Blogging was next. Case studies was shortly after and tools was after that. Other channels that perform really well, emails, live streams, interactive content, white papers.

5:54Some of the worst performing content or the worst performing content from a ROI standpoint was images, unless it's images for product pages or to describe a product or service that you're getting. And short form videos. Short form videos had a very terrible direct ROI. They're great for capturing an audience and then you need other types of content to convert them. But it was just terrible from an ROI standpoint. And then I did a follow-up because they were the same study. We just published your charts on different days. Then we looked at different content marketing tactics and then the payback period.

6:29When you look at the payback period, the content that had the quickest payback period was actually live streams. You go live, you sell, and you generate revenue right then and there. And it's easy for people to take a call to action when you're doing a live stream versus it's some other type of content they can just come back later on versus a live stream they try to take action right then and there. Under used marketing channel, very quick payback period. You make your money back in literally a few days. By the way, I remember looking at that chart and it's really the old stuff that seems to convert.

7:06Well, at least, I don't know if this is B2B and B2C, but you have blog, there's webinar, there's tools. I think email's in there as well, right? Yes, email's in there. Email performed really well. You have long-form video too? Long-form videos did probably like fifth or sixth, right? Yes, long-form videos in there, yeah. Yeah, but it's like, what's old is new again. And we use that phrase quite a bit on this podcast, but I think my guess is this is probably more B2B data. No, this is both B2C and B2B. Majority of the companies in here were B2C. Got it. Okay. But dude, here's something interesting.

7:40We talked about this, I believe, on our last recording session. All right. So we were talking about short form videos versus long form videos. And you mentioned how someone got a ton of views on their short form videos and you broke down the ad share that they were getting from YouTube shorts. Yeah. It was terrible, right? It was nothing. Well, I mean, they had the benefit of, it was a three minute YouTube short test because they're doing these longer form YouTube videos, right? These YouTube shorts. So initially it started as a long form video and it was making like a call, like, I don't know, uh, 23 cents a day or something like that.

8:10Once it switched over into a short, it went down to like basically less than a penny a day. And they were still getting tons of views. Yeah. And that's the problem because when people are watching shorts, they're it's entertainment. Yeah. Their action is, is like, they just keep swiping. That's a behavior pattern. Yes. And it's like, Oh, it sounds something cool. cool. Move on. Next one. Next one. Next one. Long form, they're super engaged. It's easier to get them to convert it through a call to action because they've been spending a lot of time. And usually with long form, again, they're engaged.

8:41And usually the algorithm is trying to serve you similar videos there. And short form does the same thing too, right? But again, how much can you learn? And the thing is this, I can't remember last time I retained something from a short form video. I can't either. Yeah. And so that's the problem with it, right? It's just less valuable at the end of the day. And which is why it's literally less valuable because they pay less for it too. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm with you though. A lot of the short form, it's more entertainment for me. Yeah. And it's not as, you know, action oriented that covers other content that I would consume.

9:12By the way, I'm not, at least on my end, I'm not necessarily thinking that people should just eliminate short form. I think it shouldn't be a priority. Like for example, recording here, the priority for us here is the long form and the audio piece. Right. And the videos, we can chop it up and all that. But like the lock, I'd say the lowest priority on this one is the 60 second short forms. And sure, we pull it from this on both sides, but it's just a side effect from what we do. Eric and I don't like creating short form videos or recording short form videos. We tend to record long form videos and chop them up.

9:44I do a recording session probably twice a month where my team has me create short form videos specifically for campaigns that they need. And no joke, I probably spend 30 minutes in each recording session. I can tell you don't really enjoy recording those as much. You know why? Because sometimes they'll make Neil take out like an Erwan smoothie or something or he'll be at his bar that you have upstairs and you're doing different scenes and you're probably just like, screw this. I'm like, this shit's... They're like, oh, look at this one. We did a short on the previous one. It got like 500 ,000 views or a million between all of a sudden.

10:19I'm like, did it drive any revenue? Well, I'm like, yeah, I don't care. Move on. Right? Well, right. It's when you get those responses. It's like, okay, we can move on. Yes. And it's really hard working with me. Eric knows this. I'm extremely opinionated when it comes to marketing. And unless someone has data that something's going to make me more money, I'm just like, no, thank you. Because when I look at my business, we generate a lot of our revenue from RFPs. And I was actually doing a breakdown with one of my co-founders the other day. We didn't get through all regions, but we hit a 50 % growth this year over last year.

10:55There's still a few more weeks. So maybe it'll be 50 something percent growth, right? That was just in the United States. And so let's say in the United States, we're getting around 24 RFPs a year. That's our current trajectory or that's what we're at for 2024. In Brazil, we're at roughly 20. I don't know the exact number, but when I was talking to Marine the other day, he's like, I think we're at 20 so far for the year. So that's just two regions. I know we get a crap ton in APAC, and I know we get quite a bit in Europe as well, and Canada, and for all the other regions within LATAM. So when I'm looking at it, I was talking to my co-founder, and I was like, I don't know the full numbers, and we haven't got them for everyone.

11:36But I'm like, I bet you we get more than one RFP a week from a big publicly traded corporation. Has to be. Because in two regions, if you're at roughly 44, it's not that hard. And I know for APAC, for sure, they get more than 15, 20 a year just in Southeast Asia. Then if you add in India, then you add in all the other countries that we're in, in APAC, like Australia, then Canada. I'm like, we have to be getting more than one a week. Yeah. By the way, this type of stuff, this actually gives me a reminder. The thing we're testing at Agency Owners Association group right now, we can share hard numbers here, right?

12:13Because this is like our fun community here. But basically I added a VSL because the team was like, hey, add a VSL to the community page. So originally we had our community manager, Austin. He did a VSL on his own, right? That converted at like 1 % or so. So we changed the VSL to me and it converts at like 6%, 7 % now, right? Oh, wow. But it's blended because we also added a seven-day free trial too. So there's a free trial as well. We don't know which one it is, right? So it could be both adding up to it. But it's like 6 % or 7 % is the conversion rate to the trial. And then on the trial conversion rate, it's about 30 % to 40 % or so.

12:46So it's actually pretty good. That's pretty good. Because we've also doubled the price too, right? And we're probably going to continue to increase the price. So now's a good time for it. But that's what we're seeing. And by the way, we're doing a session on Friday. Yes, which we can use for podcasts. Yes, exactly. So we like to use that to not only help people, but to also create content as well. Uh-huh. Yeah. Do I have that in my calendar? You do. You're like, I know you do. You're right. I do. Okay, so by the way, did you see the graph with Waymo? Basically, it's proving that network effects don't matter as much.

13:23No, I know Waymo just, you're talking about the driverless Uber, right? Yeah, have you tried it? No, I haven't, but they just, dude, I stopped using them because they all have smoke in these drivers here in Los Angeles. They all smoke in their cars. Oh yeah, Neil's very picky. So you've seen, okay, this graph over here, check this out. This graph over here shows Waymo overtaking Lyft. You can see Lyft is slowing down. This is Uber up here, right? Is it rides per day? Basically, it is gross bookings, yeah. So you can see in the black, it's Uber, and then in the red, it's Lyft, and then the green is Waymo.

13:56So Waymo's already overtaking Lyft, and it's going to just keep moving up. Because the thing is - They just released Japan. Yeah, and then Miami too, Japan. So they're trying all these other cities. So they're just going to get bigger. And so I'm not saying network effects don't - Wait, is that global data? This is global data. Actually, no, no, sorry. SF, San Francisco Operating Zone, market share. So just San Francisco. Oh, wow, which Uber is extremely popular in San Francisco. So the thing, I don't think we're saying network effects don't matter here. I'm saying in this case, whatever product is just good, sometimes it just eliminates the network effect, right?

14:28If you have a better product and a better experience, in my mind, it's a better experience. Maybe they should eliminate the smoking piece. But I like when I don't have to talk to anybody, right? When I don't have to interact with a human being. Well, with Waymo, you don't have a smoking problem. because people don't smoke. The driver doesn't smoke. There is no driver. People smoke in the car. I thought that's what you're complaining about with Waymo. Oh, you're talking about Uber. Uber. I have never used Waymo, but I've been in Uber enough. Yeah. And no joke. If you get an Uber black, then there's a good chance in Los Angeles where we live, the driver smokes.

15:00Yep. Actually, I see it in the morning. When I walk to the gym, I see a bunch of them parked over there and they're all smoking in the morning, right? I'm just like, oh, you guys. But here's the thing. You should try Waymo. It's great. Your kids will be blown away. I have a driver. So why do I need Waymo? You need Waymo. Well, you have a driverless cars coming. Why do you need a driver? I don't, dude, my driver asked me the same question. He's like, sir, because he's - What's going to happen to me? Yeah. And I always tell him, don't call me sir, but he still calls me sir. Yeah. Really nice guy.

15:29He's just like, hey, do you think I'm going to have a job in the long run with these driverless cars? I see a lot more than Los Angeles. And I was just like, yes. And he's just like, he's like, you sure? And I was like, I don't trust the driverless cars. And two, I'm like, you're like family and my kids trust you and I trust you. And I've known you for a long time. And I prefer him driving my car around versus the Waymo car. I think the reality is he will be, and he's great. I met him, right? I think he'll be fine for the next five, 10 years or so, maybe even 15 years. I think after that, it might be a little bit of a struggle because all the cars will probably come built in with full self-driving.

16:11And at that point, it'll become accepted. And so I think it's like a 5, 10, 15-year timeline. Even my mom was like, oh, it's over. No, you make a good point. If my car that I prefer driving in was driverless and it worked with good accuracy. Because I've been in a Tesla car where I put on self-driving and I'm holding the steering wheel and I can tell it's going to make a mistake. And I'm not blaming Tesla. A lot of the times I've had issues with self-driving and I don't have a Tesla anymore is actually the paving of the road lanes. Like, you know, when like the, it's unclear and they have one, they have two lanes and they paved over, right?

16:52Let's say you have a left and a right lane and you're supposed to go in the middle and it's fading. So then they paved new lanes and they put it in a little bit different of a place. It screws up the damn self-driving car and they don't know what to do. And I'm like, This is not really a technology standpoint. It's humans just not doing a proper job with paving the roads. And by the way, that's why I don't trust it. We talk about, so AI, how does this relate to business and marketing? Well, I also looked at a paper today, or I looked at some data showing that AI, O1 preview, ChatGPT O1 preview, which is no longer O1 preview.

17:26It's actually just pro now, right? It performs, in terms of medical diagnoses, regular, a human physician maybe gets it 25 out of 143 or something like that. The AI is 85 out of 143. So it's much more accurate. So I think we're going to move into a world where we're just going to see more and more accuracy. And to do a medical procedure or to drive or whatever and not use AI will be like an offense, will be like a criminal offense. And I think the same thing is going to happen with work as well. The quote that sticks with me, I listened to Satya Nadella and Brad Gerstner and Bill Gurley podcast.

17:59Did you listen to that one? I did not, but I saw it release. Right. So Satya said this, Brad, Brad Gershner was like, he's an investor. He was like, so Satya, what's going to happen to headcount at Microsoft? He's like, you know, Satya, Satya Nadella, CEO of Microsoft. He's like, you know, the way we see headcount is headcount numbers are going to go down. Cost per headcount is going to go up. GPUs per researcher. So graphical process units, right. Like an NVIDIA chip that's going to go up. So more AI chips. Okay. More, more, more compute. and the people that are, the humans that are fully employed, their paychecks are going to go up, which I believe, which we've kind of talked about.

18:35And I believe headcount's going to come down, but it's not to say humans are all going to be useless. They're just going to go do other things. So I was doing lunch with this guy who has a, I believe, plastic surgery company in Beverly Hills. His name is Deepak Dugar, I believe. He does nose jobs and stuff like that. We were just doing lunch, him, his brother, his brother has, I believe, a medical marijuana company. And he's in YPO. And we were just talking and we're, I was talking about his brother's name, Anand. Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. Anand Dugar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've ever built a website, you know how tough it can be to keep a strong design while ensuring site performance is fast.

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20:51Shopify lets you easily create email and social media campaigns to reach customers wherever they are, whether they're scrolling or strolling. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash marketing school. Go to shopify.com slash marketing school, shopify.com slash marketing school. So I was talking to people, I was like, dude, why don't you scale out your practice globally? And he's a world renowned surgeon, I believe for nose jobs. And he's just like, they want me because I'm really good at this one thing.

21:30I was like, well, when AI comes, you can just end up having it help you out. And you can scale. He's like, no, it won't work that way. And I was like, why not? And he was like, imagine AI telling you, do you just want your nose like this? And he's like, there's so many intricacies with nose jobs or teeth and people want it a particular way. He's like, these people, a lot of them are flying all over from the world for him to do it because he's literally one of the most leading experts with this type of surgery. And he's like, they're not gonna wanna risk a machine being like, hey, it can look like this and show you an image on your face and then just do it.

22:06And once if it screws up, and I'm not saying it will or will not, but most humans who have the money to pay an exceptionally good doctor, which he supposedly is, and I'm going to take his word for it. He seems brilliant and a smart guy. You would just pay the money to know that the guy who's been doing it for 20 years and is one of the best at nose jobs to just do your nose job versus a computer or a robot. I think he's wrong. I think he's right in the short term for the next five, 10 years or so. I think he's right for the long because medical is highly regulated. But I do think he'll be AI assisted, not replacement.

22:43And people will still pay him to do it. He'll just become, he'll level up a little bit more because of the technology. I think he'll get a lot of time back. And so this is something I tweeted. I said humans are for creating. So humans are for creating. Machines are for making. Yeah. And that's what I think. So anyway, that's it for today. And we'll catch you tomorrow.