Why I Fired My $25k/mo YouTube Agency, The Business Case for AI Mode, Website Traffic Is Toast (The Rapid Decline)

0:01All right, so I thought we'd start today talking about YouTube because Neil just fired his YouTube agency And ironically, or maybe it's not so ironic, but right after this recording, I'm going straight to the studio in Century City to record, which is where Neil records as well. And I'm enjoying my YouTube right now, but I'm very appreciative that Neil spent this money on his YouTube agency because we took a lot of inspiration from what they do. And it's a lot of it's working for our stuff, but we're doing it in our own way, which I'll talk about in a second. But why'd you fire a YouTube agency?

0:28Yeah. So Eric knew me going into this, that there was a chance that I wouldn't end up working with him for a long time. Their editing quality is amazing. The problem that I have with them is, or what I ended up learning from this process, let's actually go back there and then I'll tell the problem. What I learned from this process to do really well about YouTube, it's all about the script. And the agency would help me with the script, but in reality, I would create my own script because it would give me a topic. Once they give me a topic, I then record, call it 10 minutes on the low end, 30 minutes on the high end of notes for that video.

1:08And over time, they would then take those voice recordings and turn it, or video recordings, because sometimes I would screen share it and turn it into a script. And in their scripts, some of it was bombtastic. And I like taking that word, you know, Ramit Sethi taught me that word a long time ago. When I say bombtastic, things like if you don't do this you won't achieve a million dollars income like a lot of it's money related how to get rich related and I hated that it's how to get rich and uh it's also fear driven sometimes yes bingo fear driven was also another one urgency was another one scarcity was another one and I figured out how to fine-tune the scripts over time because over time instead of me just recording a video note on a topic, I would actually go into Google Docs or Grammarly or Microsoft Word, whatever you want to call it, and outline what I'm going to talk about in order so it'd be more logical.

2:09And then I would record the video notes. So I started getting to a point where I was just pretty much making the whole script. And what they were doing is adding in the hooks. So then when they would then send me a script and I was going in studio, there's a teleprompter. so I could just read off the teleprompter. But because I created the script, I would just mainly use their hook and then I would riff, hook and then riff. And I really wasn't rifting because I already knew the script because I created it myself and I outlined it before I created the voice notes. And just some of the things that they would put in the script because they weren't necessarily technical in certain parts of marketing, the script didn't always make sense.

2:47I was just doing it on my own. And I still would be paying them to this date if it wasn't for things being bombtastic. The video editing quality was great, but I would record a video on things like seven social media trends that you got to follow in 2025. And I would break down what's changing, why businesses need an app, and I would include a lot of stats and data. What ended up happening is I would record the video, they would edit it, and they would put it up on YouTube. And right away, the title was, where is it? I actually have the text thread with the guy. who owns this company. And where is it?

3:28I said, they made the headline, these 2025 social media trends will make you rich. And I straight up texted, why rich in the headline? The video isn't about that. And I told him, I'm like, my team and I want to cut his company name because it's too bombtastic. And I was just fed up with it. I didn't once talk about in the video that if you do these things, you're going to make more money or get rich or any of that. And they kept doing it. And I told them so many times. And at one point, a lot of the topics were about, quote unquote, how to get rich, tried it their way, didn't work, went back to marketing.

4:03And when I went back to marketing, I never talked about money, but yet they included money in the title majority of the time. And I was just fed up with it. I'm like, you're fired. Yeah. So I think there's a couple of lessons from this one. One is if you're hiring, if you're, let's say you're an agency or you're consulting with someone, if your client wants it some way, you're going to have to do it their way or else they're going to get rid of you. It doesn't matter if you have a better formula or whatever, because ultimately, a lot of times, sometimes they're going to think they know better than you do, right?

4:30And so maybe it's a good thing or a bad thing. But one, you got to be open to feedback. You got to listen to feedback. You've given them feedback so many times they didn't listen. The other thing, too, is you have to provide more perceived value. The only perceived value that I saw was yes, they really understood hooks and they had good editing. But at a certain point that doesn't hold up anymore because whatever you're paying a healthy five figures a month, the reason why their churn was so high and yes, they work with all the big names out there. They still continue to. It's because they don't have something that that's unique.

5:02And the other thing is, I think the people that are paying them that continue to pay them, it's a I think they've gotten addicted to the views. And I don't think that's the right way for them either, because for a lot of these people, that's not their main business, but they've been chasing the wrong thing now. You're not getting trapped into that. You're just like, dude, I want to do it this way. And the other thing I'll say is I look at other YouTubes, these guys might say, yeah, that the rich stuff that works, it gets a larger tab and all that. But when I look at other YouTubers that just focus on marketing, they're still getting 200, 300 ,000 views per video.

5:30And that's what we're saying. There are examples of that. And I remember when I talked to this guy on the phone, he's like, oh no, you got to show me some examples. I pulled up literally five examples that I showed with links. I literally screen shared with him. And he's like, oh yeah, you know, we just do it this way or whatever. I'm like, dude, this guy's not going to listen. So I'm like, well, at least Neil's going to work with him. So I'll see how it goes. And I knew 99 % chance you're going to churn. So yes. And you do too. Cause you're like, Hey, like I'll leave it at that. No. And before Eric even hired him, cause he knew I was talking to him.

5:58I told him straight up. I'm like, dude, save your money. Let me go through it first. And I'll let you know what I learn and don't learn and then go from there. And I ended up breaking down the learnings to you, right? I think early on, I ended up breaking down the process and stuff. And we're just like, oh, cool. So the reason this works is we just pretty much have to put in the majority of our own time to script. It has nothing to do with the agency doing everything for you. It is really for YouTube and social to do well. Eric and I were putting or started putting in a lot of our own energy to make it work versus just outsourcing.

6:37That was the biggest takeaway I would say that I got from paying them money. The editing quality, I'm assuming you agree, is amazing. They do some of the best editing work for YouTube, but high quality editing doesn't guarantee views. I can do a topic on something that's really gnarly of a topic like AI and marketing or Google IO and their event. And I bet you if I just screen shared and broke things down, I would get more views without the fancy editing. Yep. So, and interesting enough, that's where we're transitioning to. So I might, when I go over there and say, I might do an intro, but then I'm going to go home and record a screen share and it's going to just do the screen share.

7:15Because the thing is, someone on the team called it out too. When you and I are teaching at a conference, for example, or doing a webinar, we're kind of just teaching and it comes off very natural and people like that. And I see a lot of people doing that on YouTube and that's going to work. But I do want to give us some credit though, because some of the things you told me that we've adopted. So literally we just looked at your editing style and our team just started copying it. So it might be like 80 % there. It's not a hundred percent there. Yeah. It's good enough though. The other thing I'll say is I copied you on the loom thing, right?

7:43So you're like, oh, like I just recorded 10 to 30 minute loom. I literally do the same thing. And that comes up with the outlines and that helps a lot. And I didn't use a teleprompter, never used a teleprompter before. I didn't know we tried to do that in the office and I just never really like followed it. But now I use a teleprompter and just, it's just the bullets. Right. And I kind of riff off of those, which is what you and I are used to anyway. so I do want to give credit there yes the hooks matter and yes we try to put it to the next video we try to have open loops as well and all that um but you know again at a certain point like if there's not monthly recurring value they don't deserve monthly recurring revenue so I think um what you paid was like good up to a certain point but I just if you're not getting much more it's time to go yeah and I don't want to keep spending 25 ,800 bucks a month like that's a lot of cash yeah and especially when I'm doing a lot of work and people aren't following my instructions my biggest pet peeve and they'd never adapted on this one was for me to communicate through or to communicate with them i was required to use slack so let's say if there was a new video for me to edit they would post it in slack and they wouldn't email me so i'll tell them hey why don't you guys just email me they would say this is not the way we communicate with our team and our people so you need to communicate with us on slack how about i just stop paying you 26 grand a month yeah and i'm like wait i'm like and then when i was asking who they work with it's not really large corporations and my feedback to them is i was like and i'm not saying we're a large corporation but my feedback was if you're not willing to communicate with email and the general business communication methods that companies are used to you're not going to land larger corporations because we all use email yes there's slack for communication but putting in there hey there's a new video for you to check out and slacking that instead of willing to email that and this is like dude why can't you just send an email it see that is that goes back to customer service again because when i think about carrot like there's one customer in there that that's paying us each month right now and they don't use slack at all and we're okay with that some prefer whatsapp some use slack or whatever and then some just want email and that's okay because that's how they prefer to communicate and sometimes client wants things to start like you're here to serve the client at the end of the day yeah and if you're not willing to i think this is why i didn't want to work with this guy when he originally started the company like four or five he's like he showed me a communication thread and I basically I didn't think it was worth it right um and I think it was like a culmination of these things where I just like yeah this doesn't make sense so thank you for for giving me the download but I will say though um the way we're doing it now um our videos probably get anywhere from five to seven times more views and then when we do pop sometimes we'll have one that pops off like we had one that popped off recently 130 ,000 views or so and then you have some that like did really like 500 ,000 views or so but the ones that popped off for us they're not necessarily the ones that drive good leads.

10:26They might drive a lot of leads, but when I look at the leads that come through like YouTube or whatever, they're not nearly as strong as the ones that come through LinkedIn. So I agree with that. If I had to pick the best thing that I got from these guys, and this was something I never did and I should have done, we never turned on YouTube ads, never cared to. Why would you turn YouTube ads on? They just by default turned them on. And I don't know why. It didn't really affect the views in a positive or negative way. So they turned on YouTube ads. And... Oh, you mean for your monetization so you can get more views, right?

11:01Is that what you mean? Yes, but what we found is when you turn on YouTube ads, you don't necessarily get more views or less. We think... I don't have any definitive data on this. I think it stays roughly the same. You know, you would think that, A, for YouTube, it benefits them to promote ones with ads turned on because they make more money. But again, I have no definitive proof. Is it on now? It's still on. And it paid for some of the costs. And I was like, oh, yeah, we should just keep on the YouTube ads. Yeah, it pays for your content team, your content efforts. It pays for the content team.

11:30So that way, at least we don't lose any money on it. And don't get me wrong. I will say, like, we have gotten some good leads on the YouTube side, especially for Carrot or ClickFlow. So it's good, right? But I think, again, the trap, guys, is if you get trapped into going for views or showing off, like, this is going to get you rich or showing off your ripped body or something like that. that is going to trap you in the wrong place. The thing for us is we're constantly focused on business. So at least on my side, I'm really talking about still marketing, but I am talking about, because I experiment so much with the AI stuff, I am talking about how I'm applying it to business, right?

12:06And I think there's a niche for that. And so YouTube will find a niche for you as long as you stay consistent with it. And when we stay consistent on marketing, the views eventually come. So I'm not too concerned about that, nor are you. But I think the reminder for everyone here is don't chase the views because I'll get you distracted from your business, which is what we've seen with a lot of these influencers. And these guys work with a lot of these influencers too. Yes. The other thing I learned from YouTube monetization is there's very little to no revenue in shorts. It doesn't matter how many views you get, the ad revenue just sucks.

12:36And the reason I believe that's the case because we see both ends of it because you and I both run ads. Shorts don't monetize as well running ads in them compared to just longer form videos. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't run ads on shorts. It is also much more affordable. But long form videos tend to convert at a much higher percentage from what we've seen. Hence, they cost a lot more. Yeah. Look, I mean, we're talking about YouTube right now and Google. There's a lot of Google and YouTube topics in here. Can we just switch over to maybe talking about how SEO attribution is completely effed and how AI mode is actually going to shift SEO in general?

13:18Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. You want to start first or I can start. I can kick it off here. Go for it. Kick it off. I actually watched that Sundar interview with David Freeberg from All In. Did you listen to that one? I did not. Okay, so it's pretty good. Basically, Freeberg from the All In podcast is pushing Sundar, the CEO of Google. And they both started at Google at the same time, except Sundar became CEO. And Freeberg became a successful investor and a podcaster. And entrepreneur. And entrepreneur, yeah. Both very successful. and um you know freeberg kind of positioned this as hey there's this ai dilemma for you guys right now and then sundar's like i don't see it as a dilemma i see it as an opportunity and this is before they launched all the things they launched this week with ai mode and all that um and so what he called out was that um he said that the the main thing is this innovators dilemma thing right because they have this this cash cow that's printing all this money right now and so you can't necessarily shift everything even though gemini has some of the best models out there especially for coding um and then this week what happened was that uh google launched a bunch of things but ai mode is the thing that sticks out it's like basically it's like it's basically like an llm that you log it's like using a gemini it's like using a chat gpt or whatever that's what you're going to the default it's going to become the default search experience it's not default yet so the thing i want to call out here is the innovator's dilemma is at what point do you switch it to this new thing to not disrupt your cash cow and i think what they're doing which is smart of them is they're turning this ai mode on but it's not default and then they're going to look at all the data and figure out when it's time to kind of shift more there there because they're seeing behavior shift a lot more they are seeing though um a lot more you and i are probably asking a lot more questions now you would agree with that right i might ask on google and then i might switch to chat gpt or whatever um i don't know if you saw this you you watch cmbc a lot but you just see the cloudflare ceo discuss how um the visitors per scrapes has changed over time visitors per scrape yeah so anytime google crawls it's scraping a page right so it used to be for one website visitors there were two scrapes per google search okay um and then it shifted to um it shifted to one in six okay so every six scrapes you get one visitor okay this was like a couple months ago maybe six months ago or so now it's every 15 scrapes there's one visitor right and not only that i'll give you one more before we go into it um open ai was one in 250 um so what every 250 results you get one visitor to a website now it's one in 1500 and that's for open ai so you're talking about uh once for google once for open ai yeah so google is one to 15 open ai is now for every visitor they drive they scrape a website 1500 times yeah wow i did not yeah realize so So it's like a couple of things.

16:04I think SU attribution is completely aft. And I think website traffic is going to continue to be toast over time. Yeah. When I look at the data, because we looked at AI overviews and how it's affecting traffic, we saw traffic declines in both B2B and B2C. But what was interesting in B2B, we actually saw a slight increase in revenue. B2C, we saw a slight decrease in revenue. Now, there could be external factors like tariffs or economic conditions or algorithm updates that can affect traffic. But from a revenue standpoint, what we're seeing is a lot of the traffic that websites would have got, it's traffic that never really drove any revenue in the first place.

16:45If you look at how most people are searching, and Google talked a little about this, there's a great Search Engine Journal article on it as well. Users are typing in longer and longer tail search queries. Most of them are question-based. So it used to be before roughly 8 % of Google search queries were questions. I don't know what the percentage is these days, but it must be a much, much larger number because you can ask anything. And I was with a buddy who is visiting from Seattle, hedge fund guy. And him and I were talking two days ago in person. And as we were walking, we were talking about Apple stock.

17:24And if you look at Apple stock, I believe the number is roughly, today there's some news. Trump made an announcement that Apple should be tariffed more of their product shit. So it's causing their stock to go down. But generally speaking, the last time I looked at it, if you exclude today, Apple's stock, their company, in the last three years, the revenue has pretty much been flat. Profit's been roughly the same. So the company's not growing. Stock's gone up 40%. So I was telling my buddy this, who's a hedge fund guy, and he's just like, well, one of the reasons is share buybacks. Now, they haven't brought back 40 % of the shares, but right away, he asked Grok while we were walking, hey, Grok, how many shares has Apple bought back each year for the last 10 years?

18:13and it just mapped it all out. And he's like, oh, look, it was, I think the number was like 21, 22 or 23 million shares that they eventually had roughly 10 years ago to the most recent numbers were, is they're now at 14 point something million or billion shares. I bet you Buffett influenced that a little bit. Yeah, probably. But when you look at it from that perspective, dude, the shares are just getting bought back. and those weren't all buybacks in the last three years. But that's an example of a search that we now can easily run where that data, when you've done a Google search, it is very hard to get that from the exact webpage.

18:54They're getting it from so many different sources to get you the exact answer and that works out really well for a consumer. But that's not a search that would really generate any revenue for anyone. And we're seeing AI impact those kinds of searches when we look at navigational and transactional searches, and I have a chart on my Twitter on this, there's really not that many transactional searches that are happening on OpenAI percentage-wise. The number of searches that OpenAI is getting, almost all of it is informational. And let me see if I can actually pull up the chart. Neil Patel, chat GPT versus Google informational searches chart.

19:36And let's see if I can pull up the image on this. Dude, so check this out. How people search on Google versus ChatGPT. This is just absolute percentage. It's actually not the total number of searches because of course Google has way more searches. But 93.7 % of the searches on ChatGPT are purely informational searches. This is not the stuff that's causing direct revenue. I agree, traffic is changing from this standpoint. But when we look at revenue change, change revenue change hasn't really been impacted a lot of this is just informational based searches yeah if you've ever built a website you know how tough it can be to keep a strong design while ensuring site performance is fast that's where framer comes in and it totally changes the game framer is the design first no code website builder that lets anyone ship a production ready site in minutes i recently built a custom landing page in just a few hours animations fast load times, responsive layouts, all without writing a single line of code.

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22:12Go to shopify.com slash marketing school, shopify.com slash marketing school. Let me, let me think about this. Let me share an anecdote here so when i think about buying things like for example we went to a resort recently uh i didn't go through chat gpt or anything i still use google for that um but what did you do specifically to i was i was looking for reviews on the best uh the best resorts nearby and i wanted actually i wanted to see actual reviews that's the thing right yeah and so google has a lot of those reviews whereas chat gpt i at least haven't seen it yet um i did ask chat gpt what are the best resorts and here's my plan and it actually helped me plan out things but then when i wanted to go deeper into more transactions i actually moved over to google um and that's just one anecdote i'm not saying i'm right or wrong but i think what we can agree on is that the way we're behaving is changing because the whole like by the way one and two and then one and six and then one and 15 now i think people are just asking more questions now yes because even when i was walking to the office yesterday i was i was doing i was like using my chat chpd for a cfo and then i was using it for health and i was using for like, and then as I was, I was about to walk into the door, I was like, man, I just did things that would have cost me hundreds or thousands of dollars.

23:24And I did it in minutes. And I think what's happening is we're just asking more questions because we're all getting smarter. Uh-huh. And when I look at my search history now, you know, I also have a three-year-old, but my three-year-old asks a lot of questions each and every single day. I don't use chat GPT for it. I use Google because Google has AI over reviews. And he has questions like, what's the bite force of a megalodon versus a great white shark? How does he know what bite force is at three years old? I don't know. My God. And then how much weight can a camel carry on its back versus a donkey?

23:58And he wants to compare. How much can a polar bear lift versus a grizzly bear? No joke. He has like 30 to 40 of these questions a day. I probably do like 15 to 20 of them. My wife probably does another 15 to 20. This is daily. Yeah. All right. And then I also have a lot more questions too, just generally speaking, like in life, but I'm getting answers now to stuff quicker from all these AI platforms. And I think that's the big thing that's changed in which users are searching way more than ever because we can get what we're looking for easier. While before, dude, it was more so we would do a search.

24:36Like if we want to figure out how much Apple is doing share buybacks, we'd have to go to like five or 10 or 20 different articles give up at a certain point because you're just like i don't care that much yes now you get it quick yes and not just that dude we would have to go through all the articles sift through them and it would probably take us 20 30 minutes to really figure out what the answer was because we would have to copy paste put in spreadsheets it's just too much work it wasn't worth it but now we just ask the question we get an answer right away i'm like cool sounds good well so this is what we talked about too this is new work that wasn't possible before it would have taken too much time it just wasn't practical it's no different than the coach i have that's coaching people on how to work on higher leverage priorities right or like a a me that's trained to go coach you on how to do a one-on-one or like in sales there's like many versions of me everywhere right um now i think that that's a whole nother conversation but like when does that go too far but again we're talking about creating new work now and the other thing i think we can we can spot here like because i know a lot of seos are worried and maybe we should talk about this um but home page traffic is starting to go up right yeah so i don't know if you're seeing the same thing too we are which means that's a good thing because people are asking more questions and are learning more about us and i'll tell you what here's what i like about ai mode i went first question i asked what's the best what's the best marketing podcast out there we're still in there okay and then if i if i ask um you know who are the best digital marketing agencies or seo agencies right um mp digital is in there whatever we're ranking well for right now on page one and for top three, like we're still there.

25:58Right. So that at least is going to hold for a little bit. Um, but I think, um, let's maybe let's talk about what people should do about attribution and how, how they should adapt. Well, before we go to attribution, let's actually talk about blog articles that you and I have, uh, written for so many years, dude, you and I are known for writing when, when we got into marketing, we were known for creating tons of content, getting Google traffic for it. And that's how our brands got out there. You agree with this statement, correct? You, yeah. I didn't get my brand out there. I did that for brands to grow them, but yeah, same thing.

26:30But you did it also for single grain. Yes, yes. Right? And that is how you generate a lot of your revenue and leads. Yes. Right? May have been at a different scale than me, but that is actually what built single grain. Would you agree with that, Sam? Yeah. All right. When you think about all the articles that you created, we have a lot of articles like what is SEO and the list goes on and on these informational topics. I'm assuming you guys track your revenue and leads from your pages. Yep. Did you really close a lot of revenue from those informational? Never. And those are all tanking now. A lot of those are taken by AI.

27:02Yeah. Totally agree with that. When we went back into our CRM, because we see in Salesforce where we're getting leads from, what exact page and what's driving revenue. I understand that there's attribution stuff and we'll get into that in a little bit. but most of those pieces of content that are being affected by AI, I still think it's worth creating those articles because it gets your brand out there and you're getting cited and it's also helping you be seen more as authority but those kinds of pieces of content never really drove us revenue in the first place. And when I look at our traffic, our SEO traffic and a lot of this was deliberate, not all of it, there was some algorithm updates but a lot of it was deliberate.

27:43it, our traffic has gone down. I don't know the exact number. Let's call it four or five, six X organic over the years, but our RFP count, you know, and I've talked about this on this podcast, you know, in 2023, just in the United States, we had 16 RFPs, 2024, we had 25. Uh, I haven't looked at the 2025 numbers, uh, we're March or May 23rd when, as of recording this podcast, but the last time I checked, we're at 22 or 23 RFPs just in the United States alone. So how is it that our informational traffic is going down, but yet we're getting more larger companies hitting us up? And when we look at each RFP, not only are we getting more, but the average dollar size that each RFP is coming for is actually larger than each year prior.

28:41So we're growing in not only the number of RFPs, but the RFPs are starting to grow in size where we're getting a lot more RFPs coming in our door that are million plus dollar deals from day one. And some of them are even three,$4 million deals from day one. Yeah. So what do you think it is? I think it is getting known for specifically what you do. we started focusing more on commercial and transactional related queries. And our marketing started getting very specific to helping large businesses solve very, not just technical, but very challenging business problems in today's environment. For example, how do you expand your marketing into multiple countries and languages before you have people on the ground?

29:31Like what What are the strategies, the tactics? How do you implement it? When a corporation will say, hey, we are, I'm going to come up with a company name like Adyen, all right? We want to go after Thailand. We don't generate really much revenue in Thailand from businesses there who are looking for payment processing. For us to build a team out there, it's going to be expensive and the ROI is not going to be worth it for us. But how do we go and expand to all these regions that are up and coming, Indonesia, Thailand, et cetera, and get traction there and then start building teams in those areas.

30:08And they can't just go and say, let's go hire tons of agencies to do it for us because that's expensive as well. They have some budget, but they don't have tons of budget. And when we started working on solving these problems for corporations and talking about this from our webinars to speeches, to blog articles, that kind of stuff drove a lot of revenue for us, but it doesn't dive tons of traffic yeah i i think so maybe we should talk about uh the website traffic piece is toast and what we're doing about which is kind of what we're doing right now and then we can talk about attribution i wouldn't say that the website traffic is toast i think it's changing you're not getting as much top of funnel clicks but you're still getting a lot of traffic to a website that's more bottom of i like seeing toast because it's a good headline and that's what it said by cnbc by the cloudflare the website traffic is toast that's why i put it in here so it's not so i i the way i break it down to people is like it's like a cigar butt business it's going to continue to decline over time but it's still viable right and it's it's not to say oh we should just throw it away and we should just abandon it as as seos um i think what we should think about is okay the what is traffic or the the what is content that we've we've created that was always good for top of funnel and generating links like the what is stuff is good for links right like it's uh people like linking to the top result and then just kind of compounds on itself, right?