CMOs Are Hiring Fiverr Freelancers? Find out why.

29:37And now with changes of the world of work and exactly what you say, that people are not sure what type of roles and skills they actually need in a company. That's true from startups to enterprises. So the need for agility and expertise or new roles, new expertise is growing. And we see this evolution also within Fiverr in the sense of, you know, that, for example, you're right that the small tasks, the simple things have less demand, but there's more demand now to more complex projects. or very highly skilled freelancers, for example, if you take the world of SEO, which is a very big category at Fiverr, you see that a lot, if not most, of the freelancers are learning new skills and evolving themselves into the world of LLM optimization and geo.

30:35And this is exactly what businesses are now looking for. How can I find the right person to... And this is true for enterprises and it's true for small companies or mid-sized companies because consumers' behavior have changed and now people are searching through a lens. So, okay, I need the right experts for that. And that's hard to find. And usually the freelancers that were very strong in the world of SEO has evolved now to these new areas. And usually they're also very good at this. so we definitely see the demand but I can say that it's across the board but it's true that now the ask is for more complex stuff you know we have for example a service that we give for enterprises or big companies of project management that basically it's a Fiverr service that you have a Fiverr person that they can find the right freelancers for your project if you have something that is very complex and run the show for you in a way more agile, less, you know, kind of like on-demand thing.

31:48And we have other services that are dedicated for the more complex projects. I did not know you had that. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. It also seems like the management structure will have to be thought about when you shift from having a bunch of full-time employees at a company to then now, you know, and trying to manage freelancers, which takes probably a different kind of management style. I mean, at least that's what I have felt. It's like a bit different knowing they've got other clients and their projects and you really got to figure out how to keep them incentivized to focus and, you know, keep them on track with your project, which makes me think maybe there's different management levels to come in and really be overseeing, you know, a team of a bunch of freelancers and even working with a Fiverr person to then also help oversee it and find the people and shifting quickly.

32:34I think if you have someone who is highly professional, whether they're a full-time employee or freelancer, it doesn't matter. They will be dedicated. They will do the work. They will be invested. And we see that across the board. So I don't think that they necessarily need a different management style. I think the co-working style with the internal team might require new adjustments in the way you do things. But I think part of the tools that we have on the platform are there also to make it easier to onboard freelancers as part of your team to expand your team. Whether it's how you pay them or whether it's different kind of payment tools or you can hire them on an hourly basis.

33:26You can hire them only on a project base. There's different tools and features that we have on the platform that can give a lot of flexibility and make the hiring of freelancers for whether it's a short term or a long term period, much easier and much more kind of hybrid. And I think this is where the world is going also. I think the idea of having a hybrid workforce is probably going to be the future of work anyway. Yeah, I totally agree. So we were talking a bit about LLMs earlier, which this is a topic that I have discussed a lot recently on the show. It's funny how the conversations shift into very different areas.

34:05And now it's a lot about discoverability. And I'm wondering for Fiverr, is there anything that you and your team have been doing to make sure that the Fiverr brand is being found in the chat GPTs of the world and that you're being found for the right things? Because it seems like you have a lot of content out there that also is under these freelancer pages that are probably helping with your geo and SEO optimization, but how are you all thinking about being found for the right terms and questions? Have you ever wished that your entire video production workflow lived in one place? Well, you're in luck because that is LTX, the creative suite that was built by Lightrix, all for AI video production.

34:42It takes you from idea to final 4K video, all in one workspace. And under the hood, you've got LTX2, the next generation creative engine, powering native 4k, synchronized audio and cinematic quality fast. So if you make content professionally, this isn't just another tool. This is your new creative home. Go explore it at ltx.studio. I think for everyone, this whole world of discoverability and disability through LLMs is still, you know, that, you know, we had years of learning the Google algorithm and how how would this work and like what to do and what the steps that it was like the whole methodology was already, you know, was built and it's clear.

35:22And now it's like rebuilding the methodology, relearning, testing. I think the basic understanding is how brands and the power of the brands and what people say about the brand is suddenly even more important than ever, because this is what will end up driving a better, worse visibility on those platforms, because they mostly rely not on our own content, but more on third-party content. So we do put more emphasis on, and it speaks also to the types of campaigns we're doing, that some of our KPIs is to create a conversation, is to drive conversation. Like the Gary video, for example, the whole goal of it was to drive conversation.

36:15and that's why we're looking to tap into things that people are talking about. Same goes with our PR, our GEO team and the type of content they're writing and creating. Our content team are doing additional, now have like additional pillars of type of contents they're creating and posting in different places in order to increase our visibility. but it's very much you know learning as we go I think I listen to a lot of podcasts and I it's definitely a world that I'm you know trying to hear and learn I think I think this is kind of like what I hear from everyone like there are some people or companies even that are you know found this is their expertise and they're focusing only on that but even them speak about how the The measurability of it is still very much, you know, I don't want to say magnitude, but it's not, you know, it's still not fully clear of, there is no ranking or clear ranking to a lens to understand exactly if what you're doing is taking where you want to be.

37:25Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it seems like we're in the in-between gray area right now of you should probably just be putting more out there on more platforms and you should be allowing other people, like you said, your customers or influencers to talk about you. That probably holds more weight than, you know, you getting up and saying, we're the best, like letting your customers say you're the best. Yes. But yeah, just playing everywhere. And that's why, I mean, obviously I'm biased, but I think podcasts are an amazing platform and YouTube as well. Just getting video content out there and YouTube is one of our strongest platforms.

37:56Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Same. Yeah. We started betting on video, I think like three years ago, putting all of our podcasts in video. And it's interesting because it's such a different platform compared to podcasts. And like, we really knew how to grow our shows and get them ranking and all the things. And then we switched over to YouTube. We're like, oh, wow, this is like a whole different world. And you can't just copy paste, which we see a lot of brands doing where they just take one format, throw it into another place, and then just throw it on LinkedIn. And like, you can't do that. You have to treat them like individual companies and strategies and even team members of, okay, you're very good at that.

38:29You're very good at this piece and not trying to just, you know, make one person understand all the platforms. But yeah, it seems like that is my high level thought of how to be good in this space right now, but without getting caught up in data and measurement and just killing yourself with attribution. And is this working yet? Like, this is a long-term play where you just got to make the bet now. It's, yeah. And I think that's part of it. Like you need to make the bet to go with it because you're not always going to have all the data all the time, especially when everything is so, you know, fresh and new.

39:03So which is exciting. I actually love the space where now I'm like, this is cool. We get to learn so many new things now and try and fail. Yeah. Just two things. Just try them and do them. Exactly. There you go. I like it. Shiri style. Try it. Do it. That's good. All right, so I want to shift gears now because when we talked maybe a month or two ago, you told me about this email that your CEO sent you, your whole company. And at first when I heard it, I was like, whoa, whoa, that's like, that's aggressive. How are these employees feeling about this? And I think the email said, AI will take all of our jobs one day, including mine.

39:36Now, I don't have the context of the email. I don't know why, you know, what this was about. But I'd love to hear a background on why did he send this and what happened among the company? Like, what was the point of this email? Just tell me all the background. First of all, that's a very, definitely a great headline and a great soundbite, but there was an if afterwards. Oh, I missed the if. Okay, wait, say it in the way it's supposed to be then. No, but no, that was true. That was the email. It was definitely very direct and it created a lot of noise and definitely a lot of like interview opportunities for him.

40:06But the reality of his letter was that that's the reality of our lives. It's true that if we as marketeers, as developers, as, you know, HR people, whatever we do, doesn't matter. If we want, you know, wake up our curiosity, if we want sharpen our curation capabilities, and if we're not going to start dipping our toes into new technologies and doing ourselves new things, we will become not relevant you know i've been in the business of marketing for feel so old 20 years to say and i'm a dinosaur right so i have a lot of experience and i've done many things and i have all that but you know i was thinking to myself if and that's really aligns with with this letter if i'm a dinosaur and the ice age is coming yeah i better learn how to snowboard right if you want to stay relevant and uh it was kind of a wake-up call email i guess for all of us um and that encouraged a lot of you know the employees and i think it did the same you know with the echo it had on on social and communication to to wake up and realize that we need to learn like reality has changed there's this new technology imagine you know internet, right?

41:36Or social media. Like today we're podcasting and we have YouTubers and there's influencers and social media managers and all that stuff that we take for granted. But I'm old enough to remember that this skills and professions did not exist. And if we want to stay relevant in this new age we have to learn and try and uh do things that even if we don't understand them in the beginning or we have to test ourselves to see what other skills we can evolve to uh what does a marketeer means you know five years from now it's not going to be the same right um and and And I think that was kind of the essence of the letter.

42:21And I think, you know, you saw things like other like big brands and big companies and you see that it's happening. This is exactly where we are. Yeah. So what personal shifts or shakeups did you see in yourself after you saw that email? And it probably had you, you know, questioning a lot of things and skills that you should acquire. And I'm sure it can be also overwhelming of like, now I need to be a coder. now I need to learn everything. So what did it wake up in you and maybe your team as well? So you can't, you know, obviously you can't learn everything at once, but I think the first, like it was a great shakeup, but I think at least for me and my team, you know, a second later, it was kind of like, all right, so now we start and we, they know, you know, it's true for Fiverr across the board is that, you know, when they come and they want, my team specifically also, when they need all those, like, you know, they want to try different platforms to use it, they automatically get, you know, the access they need to try new things.

43:31And we dedicate time for this as well. At least in the beginning when, you know, when new tools have arrived, like, you know, all the videos or the new journeys, like in the early days, uh we it's funny i called it the early days i think it was like a year ago um oh the good old days the good old days when we journey was like a new thing we all learned how to use but uh but it's to dedicate time in their calendars and to make sure that they spend the time of trial and testing and learning and bringing sometimes freelancers or other people that are already more savvy in those fields to teach them.

44:15And I also talk a lot. So my expectations from them is to understand that the boundaries are blurring and each of them kind of like, you know, if you think about personal development that is now getting a whole new meaning and definition, it's not just about how I'm going to evolve in my field. It's like, okay, if I'm a designer and now I have the capability to deploy and to create the landing pages or whatever I do without the need for anybody techie to do it, okay, here's another skill for me, so now I'm going to start doing that. If I'm a content writer or a UX content writer, designer, I can now create, design the page in the flow and the user experience that I think is the best in order to communicate that better to the actual UX designer or the developer or whoever that is.

45:15And I think it's not just this letter. I think it's the overall kind of mindset of Fiverr and the culture and the kind of the approach that our CEO brought in. And it's embedded across all the senior leadership and the employees is that we need to develop and to learn new skills. And there's always room for learning. Like there's no expectation that, you know, tomorrow morning everybody's going to meet, but we are going to find ourselves in a situation that we have, that everybody's like some sort of a creators or multi-talents that can do a lot of things. And I guess, I don't know how it would look like exactly, but I guess, you know, that will also impact the organizational structure and how we work on things.

46:09Yeah, one thought that I've been playing with, and you can tell me if you don't agree with this, but as a lot of things are getting automated, a lot of jobs are shifting, a lot of roles are changing. The one thing that I feel like I'm thinking about, like everyone betting on more is how do I tap into my human self more? And like, we've been so in our head, like in this world of how do I get better at a task and better at doing the thing? And now it's like, well, all these things can be done themselves, but how do you tap into wisdom, like pure embodied knowledge of a life you've lived, of an experience that you had that no AI tool could ever come up with because it didn't live it.

46:46It didn't. Only you did. And so I'm like, how do we tap into that as like be more human? I think it's how do we leverage that? Yeah. And our curiosity, our creativity, because it's true that, you know, there are things that are still like uh you know only humans can can have you don't get that you know when you i think there was recently this uh someone prompted uh chatty petit to create a woman no description just create a woman okay and do you see that one no no tell me about it so it gave a certain type a very typecast kind of like of a woman obviously she was thin she looked in a certain way and then she started asking on social she asked everybody to to take the same post and to see what they get and everybody got the same woman exact same woman the only time she was different or at least ethnically a bit different is when the prompt was in a different language that matched the ethnicity that she came out as and that was kind of like oh my god it's like no matter like you always get the same kind of average thing like it was you know and i think if you wanna so i think what happens is that the technology definitely kind of like elevates the average right everybody can do more things yeah also we see it like in a category like book publishing right it's just one of the growing you talked about trends and asked about like growing categories book publishing is a growing category because suddenly everybody writes books yeah everyone's an author now everybody writes books and everybody now looking coming to fire to look for people will help them edit the books or template the books or you know design the books and all that stuff and uh but yet i would bet that with all those new authors there's only one you know stephen king you know there's no so i think being creative and curious and having the boldness to try things is probably the most important qualities that we need to have today in order to and to think how can we leverage them and creativity you know it's like you know creative thinking it doesn't have to be you don't need to be a creative person in your profession but it's it's the things the qualities that we definitely need to leverage to think how can we leverage in order to um bring value or create value in this new world Okay, so with everything you've done, you've seen a lot.

49:22Like you said, you've been in this space for a long time. Do you have any advice for marketing leaders, brand leaders, CMOs? Yes, to embrace the chaos and to learn how to be comfortable in the unknown and be able to also move forward. and in this unknown by placing bets on different things that you believe in them, knowing that you might fail. I think because everything is changing so quickly all the time, this is something I also tell my team. We have to learn how to understand what we can control, what we cannot control, and feel okay with it. that we probably feel that we can control less than what we used to.

50:16And we have to be okay with it. I think that's kind of like the main, main impress the mess, I would say. Yeah. So, okay, I want to get to the how because I'm like, yes, I have heard this a couple times on the show. But then I'm like, how do you actually if you have pure chaos, coming at you slapping in the face, rolling around, how do you actually ground yourself, calm yourself and your team to sit in it and stay in it without letting it throw off your entire nervous system and your whole day and you know not be able to operate in life it's a little it's a little intense i took it there yeah well i think you know every time there's like chaos you need to go back to basic for a second to your what can you control what can you offer what do you do good what do you do what do you have that people need and and focus on that focus only, only on that and let the chaos and the changes sometimes also, you know, it could slap at you, but it could also open up opportunities for you that you didn't realize that as long as in one hand, you're very grounded in like, what can you offer, uh, and what you're good at.

51:26Um, And then simultaneously open your arms to doing things completely different than what you used to do. And I think throwing people into the deep end more than ever is something that they accept. They understand that it's part of the deal now. They have to, you know, get a task or a project that they understand they need to do. Even if they don't exactly know how and where to start, I will give them kind of like a lead. Okay, let's start there and let's build the plan as we fly it and we'll go. I think that would be kind of like the definition of embracing the chaos in a way. It's like understanding that you can't see 10 years forward.

52:20You see in today's world, you see, I don't know, a month forward, two months forward. Yep. And that's it. So play towards these two months right now. Yeah, it does seem like such a shift in the world when I think about even when I first started back in Google or back when I was working at Fannie Mae, I had a long ramp period. Now, when I look back on it, I'm like, wow, they were so patient with me. They gave me probably like three or six months just to ramp up and try and learn the org. And now looking at today, it's like I hear so many people saying, you know, I'm expecting you to launch something, to start something within a month or two.

52:58I want to see how you work and I want to see things happen quickly, even if it's a little haphazard, even if it's not the way that I really perfectly wanted it. Just seeing like how is my team performing and how can I just throw them in? Absolutely. There is no like 30, 60, 90 days are over. It's more like, you know, week, two weeks, three weeks kind of thing. But I think as long as a manager or as an organization, you understand that, as you said, it's going to be haphazard, it's not going to be perfect, then it's fine. It makes sense. I don't think it's a high expectation to choose this approach.

53:38Yeah. What about when it comes to team org structure roles? I mean, to me, like you said, it seems like the lines are getting blurred between who's doing what. And I mean, you can be a marketer and then you're like, well, now I'm going to be over here working with, you know, lovable. And then I'm going to be over here doing something, you know, in branding or even working with a sales team. I mean, it seems like marketing, sales, revenue, all kind of converging, customer success, same thing. How do you think about bringing someone in and trying to keep them on maybe a career path and showing them where it can lead, but also knowing that this world is merging very quickly.

54:11So I think that lines are blurring, but at the end of the day,

54:18people are good, that they have certain skills and they're good at something. So the essence of their skill usually can be relevant for additional skills that are adjacent to it in a way. For example i think that the the whole world of seo geo for example right it's it's a different ball game to do geo it's not nothing like seo but the way of thinking and the mindset and the kind of like the the more of the kind of personal attributes that you have as an SEO expert will be relevant as a geo expert for example um I think from design sense point you know we have under my you know our designers you know they used to work Figma that was their world but now they don't need the motion design to create motion they don't need the martic so they can just go ahead and do it themselves and and then evolve into maybe becoming also a motion designer and then their title changes and there's new title so i i it's like i don't spend too much time in trying to figure out how it would look like i'm just saying let's let it happen let them choose each one where they feel they get like the higher impact that they can bring with the existing kind of talent they have to get new skills and then and then we'll see we'll see how it, you know, how it evolves.

55:52I love that. All right. I want to shift over now to the lightning round. This is where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to send back your answer. Are you ready, Shiri? All right. Take a breath. Get ready. Okay. So first up, what is one of your favorite tools or platforms that you've been playing around with recently? Something new. something new obviously vo and all those like the vo3 and now source who came out yesterday so i'm definitely gonna try that um i use it in a very silly way sometimes just you know personal like i just use it to create to deliver my messages sometimes even to my husband and kids in a more creative way that's good yeah um so i really like that i like uh base 44 i use all the time and again i always feel like i'm not leveraging it enough you know we always get the feeling that you can do way more yeah but but uh this is where i need the help of a professional to kind of teach me maybe a little bit more um so i use these uh and obviously you know touch GPT constantly.

57:04I use the voice mode to prepare to this interview, for example. Nice. Yeah. I mean, I will say that, you know, it's, I think it's more rare for a CMO to be in base 44 and to be in VO. So kudos to you for diving in and getting your hands dirty because I actually haven't heard that that often. So. Oh, yeah. And also actually, I'm the, I'm just to correct my title and it would be Brent. But our CMO, my boss, is also constantly on, like now he has this new project that he wants to create. I don't want to say it. It's still secret, but yeah, we're definitely trying to create like side project and things.

57:41That's cool. About to bring on your CMO next and check him out. Although this was fun. It's a high bar, so I don't know. That's good. Okay, if you had a Times Square billboard, but you couldn't promote Fiverr, what would you put on it? It would be my URL. I couldn't care less.com. That would be the URL. Where is it going to go to? Now I want to type it in. Is this your URL? It's like, I know I couldn't purchase. It was too expensive. But it's something that between like my, my son tried to buy it for me for my birthday. because I, you know, sometimes it's like, it's kind of like, it sounds negative, but it's kind of my positive way of saying like, I'm focusing on what's important.

58:32So I couldn't care less on anything else. Yeah. So that would be it, I guess, some sort of a motto. Yeah, I love it. That's good. Who is someone that gave you a piece of advice that really has stuck with you over your life? And what was the advice? Oh, I have a lot of good advice that I got, obviously, for my parents, a lot of good advice. And for work, I had a manager in my early days that she told me, never be offended. Never be offended. If you want to say something, get up and say it. If you're not invited to the meeting that you want to be in, find the note to bring in and stay in that meeting.

59:22Don't ever be kind of like, don't find excuses why you haven't brought yourself all in if you feel you should kind of thing. So, you know, kind of write your own path in a way, I guess, if I can translate it. I love that. I had a good manager at Google and she always told me, speak with your feet. If a meeting is not worth your time, just walk out. Even if it's in the middle, just leave. I'm like, damn. Okay, Anne, I will. True. Yeah. I love it. Okay. What is a place that you get inspiration that maybe is a little outside the norm? It's not from work or anything. Where do you find some good creative ideas or your inspiration comes from?

1:00:06I listen to a lot of books and podcasts. I'll be honest. since audio came into our lives i became a very intellectual person me too i got smart because it's i got smarter because it as a as a you know i was growing up it was very hard for me to read like to focus on on a book but since i can listen to books i listen to every type of book or podcast from, you know, economics to data science to romance novels to pop culture to all sorts of weird. I like to listen to niche things that I don't understand anything about and I start reading history. I think it's very inspiring. When you look back at the evolution of things and how the evolution of people and how they behave and what drives people is very inspiring to me.

1:01:07I'm obsessed with understanding, you know, what takes people and what drives them. Yeah, I love that. Okay, what's a favorite book that comes to mind? And then what's a favorite podcast that you tune into other than marketing trends, which I'm sure you just listened to all. I was about to say marketing trends, of course. Book, I think like I read it like ages ago but it left a mark for sure it was shoe dog oh yeah such a good uh it's a really good book um and because it was not kind of like the traditional business see autobiography there's something there that really left you know i left the book with a with not with a business of nike but with a person with a human behind it so it was really beautiful and podcast i listened to a lot of podcasts i listen to lenny's podcast prof g um i like the ex-speed man i like even joe rogan sometimes if i have patients because any patients yes to that podcast um i'm very mainstream i think i'm not unique in any way i don't know i'd say you're pretty unique after this conversation anyone told you otherwise but i'm no i'm okay i'm an okay mainstream i'm a little child So it's fine.

1:02:24I think being mainstream rocks. That's good. Okay. And then the last thing, what is a hobby or something that you like to do that most people don't know that you do? It's going to sound speaking of mainstream and shallowness. I had an argument with a friend of mine, which he is a very kind of like, he's very creative. He was a very senior in one of the biggest creative agencies in the US. And he does a lot of things. He does art and bikes and stuff like that. And we talk about hobbies. And I said, my hobby is to watch TV. And he said, that's not a hobby. And of course, it is a hobby. I learned English from watching TV.

1:03:00I, you know, I watch it with intention. I learn a lot of stuff. I Google things after I watch TV. So I think it's a hobby. I would title it as a hobby. And then we ended up becoming a whole argument whether watching TV is a hobby or not. I still vote. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think whatever you want can be a hobby. So that's my thought. Well, Shiri, this was so fun. Thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing all your ideas and wisdom. Really, really appreciate our time together. Where can people find out more about you, learn about your background and what you're up to? Obviously, my LinkedIn, which I nurture not enough.

1:03:39And all my contacts is there. Obviously, Fiverr and on your podcast. There you go. There you have it, folks. All right. Well, thanks so much. And we'll see you again soon. Thank you so much. This was fun. Thank you.