Stop Counting Your AI Agents. Customers Don’t Care.

22:42And I think most people say like, not quite yet. And I think that's why we saw open AI and a lot of these companies pull back from prioritizing that shopping experience. There's just, there's a bunch of like compliance also complexity that goes into all of that as well. Yep. So when thinking about the human trust element, I know that you've been a big proponent of keeping a human in the experience and making sure that that is felt throughout the touch points. Tell me more about how you all think about that and then how you encourage, you know, the, your clients to also keep the human first. And like, at what point is it important?

23:15And at what point are you actually telling people like, no, that's not the important point. It's over here. That's the important point. Yeah. I mean, AI still is a black box. I mean, if we really start to unpack how the algorithms work and how all the data works together, I think there's a lack of visibility, which means you need the human aspect involved. And I think a lot of brands are hesitant to actually fully adopt because they fear that they'll lose control over how their brand shows up for consumers. For us, we're prioritizing product development and tools that allow them that visibility.

23:47We have a new product that we've started talking about that we'll launch next week, which is our Brand Voice 2.0, which means you actually get visibility into how the AI is going to show up to your consumer and messages so you can tweak it, put inputs into it and like actually know what's going to come out and like what's going into why the message is shaped that way and help kind of like reshape it. So it's like more, more ownership and more, more access to be able to guide how your brand shows up versus like, okay, here's my data. Cross your fingers and test it a little bit. So like we're investing in things like that.

24:19So I do think it's the transparency piece. And then the human element for us is I'm a consumer. I mean, I buy things all the time, right? And I am finding more and more, I'm much more likely to buy from a brand who's going to respond to a shipping problem, a complaint, a, Hey, I ordered this blue dress and you sent me a red dress. Like, can I get a new one? I think Tucker knock who's a customer does it really, really well. They make sure that you have like that personal concierge should something go wrong. So you feel taken care of. And I actually, I've been trying to get more information. I think they use like a concierge and backend that is mostly a automated, but the way that they've built their brand voice is like, I feel like there's a person on the other side of that exchange.

25:01Who's helping me guide what happens to the point of they messed up on an order. Right. And so they use SMS to get me in like, okay, this, my son is graduating high school this year. I'm like, okay, I want this kind of dress to wear to graduation. Like it's in stock in your size. it's been sold out forever. I'm like, great. I'm so excited. I get the dress. It's missing the belt. It's a matching belt. I can't throw another belt on. I literally text them back. They sent me a text saying, hope everything went okay. It looks like your item arrived. I had a real person reach out to me literally on text and a voicemail saying, so sorry that happened.

25:32We've already refunded that dress and we've sent you a new one. Like that personalization, I will buy a million more things for them. But there was like, there was a human involved in either making sure the the message was right and it was at the tone and it was responding to the need I had. And even if it's trained on AI, which is getting better and better, it felt personal. And I think people are valuing that more and more. Yeah, no, I see it too. And with myself, and it's kind of funny that we're like going back to the, like the old days where I'm like, I better have a human that actually calls me and I want to know it's a human voice.

26:05And yeah, but I mean, I see that not only with customer, you know, interactions and customer support, but also like in-person things, like the demand for people getting together and just being around other humans. I mean, like, ah, doesn't this feel good? Like it's, yeah, it's, it's a good theme coming back. I'm here for it. I like it. No, it's definitely a trend. Even among our customers, like, um, Bart from dad gang, who's one of the founders there. We have a great relationship with him, but like one of the things that we've invested in through his and others urging was they also want to, as brands, they want to learn from each other.

26:38They want a better community. That's not just a company trying to upsell them constantly. So for us, like we facilitate, it's called the Commerce Council, but we facilitate this conversation for them to learn from each other. They have conversations and all these chats that are completely unrelated to us, just like helping each other at similar stage businesses solve for similar customer problems. Like that sense of community I think is back stronger than ever. Yeah. So what about when it comes to like a CMO community? Are you getting together with other CMOs? And I'd say like after like a glass of wine or two, what's being discussed if so?

27:12I mean, I think the number one thing I was fortunate, I just got to go to women in retail, which was in Miami, which is a bunch of very senior female leaders in retail and e-com, mostly VP CMOs. And I think the thing that comes up is just the fatigue of pace, right? Like the pace is just trying to stay resilient to how fast things are changing. Like you think you have something figured out you've solved for, like we're working to solve for like our compete mechanism to make sure it's all AI enabled. It's like, okay, we're going to get that solved, but then there's going to be something else literally before we finish that, that's going to be as urgent or new or something that we need to look at.

27:48So I think the number one thing that I hear is just people are like, it's a little, it's energizing because we're on this era of so many things that are possible that we never thought were, but people are tired. They're like, okay, is this, are we going to hit a bubble, like a real bubble where it slows down and we like take a pause? I don't think it's in the near term, right? We all talk about that, but it is this balancing the energy and the excitement, but people are working harder and more than ever in this space because as a CMO or as a leader, you have access to do things that used to be maybe buried within roles or functions.

28:22And now I can do, you know, research on a competitor. I can build like some sample early messaging or like, Hey, have we thought about this in a way that it feels very collaborative with the rest of the team and that I have as much information as everyone else does. And I think, I don't know, I felt a while ago we were a little far removed, but now at the leadership level, we're in it, but keeping up with that pace is going to be building some endurance. I think it's the key that everybody walks away with. Yeah. How are you getting your hands dirty? Cause I feel like This is something that maybe a couple of years ago did not really matter if you were, I mean, I don't think it did, but now like if you're not in there knowing what cloud code can do of being like, ah, got it.

29:02Okay. Like, I think you, it's hard to even manage if you don't know how quick things can move and maybe how to think about how to orchestrate all the pieces together among a team. So like, what things are you doing? Yeah, I think it's, it's that, but it's also making sure like early, early days, I just assumed how easy things were and like, oh, just go use, you know, there's skills in cloud to go do that. Like, why can't you just do that? But it's so dependent on how your systems are set up. Like even today we were going through this like agent that we've built for our go-to-market ourselves and CS teams to where instead of like going into our Slack asking for like, hey, I have a deal that has these two competitors in it and I need our differentiators.

29:40And like, we would just build like battle cards and things for them to go through. And we built this agent where we're putting everything from customer insight into calls into all of our assets. And it's like, so here's how, I mean, I'm in a daily standup where we go through and we break it down and we test it. We add in, we were telling it like, use these sources. Like you have access to these sources to build the response when people ask these questions. We didn't say that these are the only sources you should use. And these are the source of truth, right? So we actually had to go in this morning and change and test it.

30:10We realized like, oh, we had to limit its thinking because it was giving, it was going out to, you know, all of the different LLMs searching for the latest information. We're like, no, that's very subjective. You can only use these resources. So like I went in and updated the agent, the Slack agent to actually do that, right. To see like, okay, that changed the, like, let's go search for something super, like really, really crazy. And Vanessa was on my team who's helping with it. She's like, okay, we figured it out. It was just going everywhere. Like you have to be in it. You have to understand how to do it and what, that it's not click of a button.

30:42It is easy. It's faster. Like within a few days, we've gone from concepting to testing to now field testing tomorrow, and it'll be live by Friday. Like the speed is crazy, but you have to be in it. For me, it's personally, I'm using it just for like time management. Like, okay, here's the meetings I have this week. Here are all of my granola notes from all my meetings this week. Where should I focus my time? Like, what are the couple of things I have to focus my time on? And that used to be me kind of piecemealing it together at the end of the day. Now I have like this assistant that helps me do that.

31:10So there's lots of different ways that people are using it. I love the personal use cases because I feel like that also helps you see in business what you can do. I built this whole, I called it mother OS, a whole operating system for my family life, kids work, put it all in there to help me understand like, how do I add my own like self-care time in here? How do I like see when things are conflicting? How do I delegate things to my husband? Can I just push him to him and like sync it to his calendar and I have this whole thing running. Let me know when you figure that out. Yeah. It's almost ready where a couple of my friends are like, can we have that too?

31:42But I'm like, that's, I think what probably women need is actually just delegate to our husbands more and just need a push button. That was my concept. Yeah. No, my husband constantly, he's like, I'll happily do whatever you ask. I'm like, well, sometimes I don't even have the capacity to think of what to ask, but now exactly. Claude can. So Claude can. Yeah. I'll be like, I think your day is too crazy today, Carrie. I think you should push these three things and dinner and this, and here's a recipe to give to him. Perfect. It is. Yeah. Life has changed dramatically for all of us. Yeah. So I was looking at your blog and I think you were referencing something around Victoria's secrets.

32:18I think it was the CEO Hillary or is that the CMO? Which one is she? Hillary. Yeah. Okay. It was a little while ago. Yeah. Yeah. So she had an interesting quote around CAC should not be the single KPI. It's super dangerous if you are only looking at that, which had me think, okay, what KPIs should we be looking at now in a world that's changing this quickly? Like, which ones are you looking at? And are you telling your customers they should be looking at for their customers? You know, the number one that we get for customers, I'll start there. The number one ask we get from customers right now from like their CEOs and their CFOs and even some of our customers are CFOs and CMOs, depending on the company.

32:57the number one thing we get, right? Because all this AI add-on is not free. It's not like, oh, pay us the normal licensee or the normal fees, and then we'll throw all this at it. Like, that's not how it works, right? These are incremental costs. And so the number one like metric or KPI they're getting is, okay, great. What's the incrementality our business will get from adopting these tools? That is the number one question we're getting from customers right now. And so we're building a lot of reporting that's more standard and not custom. So you can basically see like, Depending on what you have turned on, what is it driving?

33:30Incremental to already, like you said, already sending the message without the AI. How much more lift? How much more conversion? How much faster does your list grow to audiences that do convert? That's where we're getting the biggest customer questions. Those are the metrics that matter right now, honestly. We hear of others, but that's the number one. Internally, I think what we're looking at is really more around net revenue retention for customers. Like we were just going to like the metrics that matter now versus all of the, we still look at the signal in the leading indicator stuff around like cost of acquisition early and does it convert and at what stage does it convert?

34:07But really it's that like of the customers we sell into, how many of them continue to stay, right? So like, and that ties into your NPS, your NDR, like all of the metrics that matter. I think right now in marketing are in that retention and satisfaction and NPS for customers. Acquisition, yes, but that one matters more in a highly competitive space. Yeah, I was thinking when it comes to retention, I mean, like there's so many new tools that are popping up that have all the claims and then they just throw like AI in front of it. And you're like, oh, okay. Like they're just, there's so much out there.

34:41And then you've got, you know, people also thinking I can quickly just recreate that tool. You're in a space that has more remote, but let's say like go high level. Like I just, I recreated go high level for our company. I'm like, all right, we're good now. Like we have it doing it. And so how do you like focus on retaining clients in a world where they're getting so much information, some misinformation of like what, you know, what's good, what's not and what to try. Yeah. I mean, it just, in the world of personalization, it also, you have to sell and discover that way because every brand, Maybe they just got consolidated under a huge private equity umbrella.

35:18They all have different, so their challenge is cost. They just have to reduce cost at all levels. And some others are just in hyper-growth mode. They're not in that space. So you have to know what matters to the customer with where they are. And then I think you can help educate them on what matters most to the programs that they have today. Consolidation is a massive movement. It has been for going on two years. And it used to be, I mean, we were in this era for like five-ish years in like the early 2020s, 2019, where it was like best in breed. You wanted, it didn't matter how many you had in your stack as long as the stack worked together and you had the best ones that were the best results and the best customer experience.

35:55That was the direction. And now it's like, okay, like as long as it can do most of the really important things and get you the reporting you need, most people are saying, I need to consolidate so I have the best visibility. And I have one place for my, you know, my data cloud, like a snowflake or Databricks to sit under or on top of like people are consolidating. And I think that's been the biggest thing is know what matters to your business and then pick the platforms that best suit your ability. They're agile, like that are truly innovating. They're not just saying they have these things coming.

36:27There are a lot of people in a lot of different, like you said, they're all attacking AI somewhere, but they haven't done the work. Like we've had engineers dedicated to AI and LLMs for over three years, right? Like we launched our first AI product over two years ago that was truly AI. And so I think that's like, ask the questions. Like, do you have real customers? How much data do you have? How far along are people in adoption? Can I talk to a customer who's implemented this? I mean, I think those are all the things that we're trying to help people to like protect our mode. Like there's value in experience and our ability to be fast on how we build on top of that.

36:59I also think when you tack AI onto names now, it makes me wonder if you actually know AI. That's my thought that comes up. I hope everyone has it. I wish you can tell that to my board sometimes. Yeah. I mean, I get it. Like every company, your valuation will go up right away. I know, I see what's happening, but I'm also, I think you've said this and I thought this when like blockchain came out and I forget who said, you know, the best way to use blockchain is when you don't ever know what's even happening. It's just like doing things behind you. And I'm like, and I think you said the same thing for AI is like the best tech and I'm going to botch this, but it's like, it's already there and you don't even feel it because it's so good.

37:37And yeah, those are the companies I trust a bit more. I'm like, it's all behind there. I just can't feel it because it's so personal and it's doing everything I need. Yeah, I know. But it's back to that outcomes thing, right? Like all you care about, like, does it solve the problem or drive the results or outcomes that you're going for? And so like calling it something or calling it out. Like right now it's agent agentic, right? Like everybody's like, we're the agentic platform. I'm like, Oh, for now until the next thing. But like, ultimately what are we doing? And for us, we've really leaned into our mantras, like marketing made personal.

38:07And it goes to like, it's not just the people. Like we have an incredible team of people that we attach to accounts and like help them have seamless integrations and make sure that in their, in their most trying moments or when they're understaffed and they need to like, you know, multiply their team, they can count on us. But it's also like, That's what we do. We don't, it doesn't matter if we say we have 24 agents that can take care of these 24 workflows. At the end of the day, what a brand should care about is I can drive more incremental revenue because all of this is happening 24 seven behind the scenes.

38:38It gives my customers such an amazing experience and helps me deliver my products to them in a way that they're like, oh, I want to do that again. And I think that's, that's really what personalization is about is unlocking that. I truly believe that. Yeah, I love it. So you've seen a lot, you know, a lot, you've been in this space for a while when something like genuinely confusing happens in your marketing space, who do you call? Like, who do you go to? And it can't be your team or an agency. Like who else? I want to know who you're relying on. Yeah. So I have mentors and I have people that are, it's like part of my network and have been for a long time.

39:17The old CMO at Attentive, who's now the CMO at Datadog has just been in tech for a long time. She was at Salesforce. She was at Twilio. And I feel like she's just got such a practical kind of like, don't freak out. This is to be expected. This will change. This will come back. This is temporary. So I go to Sarah a lot when I need help or lean on something. And then I have just a couple of people that I've met in my network through. There's a couple of different, like Exit 5. Dave Gearhart has a great community of different CMOs and leaders. And that group has been really fantastic to lean on. We, a group of us met at a conference and have stayed in touch and have kind of the same level of growth and size of companies.

39:57So when something happens or like, you know, there's like a competitive woe that comes up, I'm like, I don't, I've never had to deal with this before. Like, how, how would you message this? Like, what's the right way when something like this happens? It's just great to be able to bounce off. Like, even if they haven't been through it, it's just a couple different ways of thinking. Or one of them was asking me, they're like, Like, oh my gosh, you seem to have a really good established program on how you measure ROI for events. And I can't figure it out. It's like just using those people as sounding boards.

40:27I go there before I go to ChatGPT. And I think that that will remain for me. I like that. That's a good quote. Which communities, I mean, you mentioned Dave's community. I think you mentioned the women in retail earlier on. What other communities are you finding to be super beneficial? I mean, I'm in a couple, but those ones are the most beneficial as far as women in retail talking to our customers, our brands, hearing from them what they care about and like figuring out where, where they're thinking. Like, what are they thinking about three, six, nine, 12 months from now? And then the exit five one has just been a really great, great one.

41:06Cause there's just a great community and there's in person and there's online. And then there's a couple other ones. There's like a CMO coffee talk, but that's all B2B SaaS type CMOs and more early versus late stage. And then I've also been a part of Pavilion, which is like great for skill building and like going, they have a lot of like resources and courses and things. But also like I just, I just signed up for this Harvard career, I don't know what they call it. It's a expanded career curriculum and it's really affordable and they have like an AI for CMOs class. So like it's all online. So that one's coming up.

41:40So I think continuing education, you continue to meet people, but those are kind of the places I go. LinkedIn, obviously, but there's so much on LinkedIn right now that I kind of have a few in my algorithm that come up frequently because they're the ones I comment or respond to. Yeah, it's hard on LinkedIn. Whenever I'm on there, I'm like, it just feels like so many people are not doing human things on there. It's just so much AI content, AI comments, AI everything. And I'm like, man, how do we make LinkedIn like cool again? Because right now it's too much just AI all over the place. Everyone got the same strategy and did it.

42:15Everybody used the same AI to build the strategy. And I think that is true, I think, in everything. I think that's one of the things that scares me a little bit about AI. It's like, oh, do we all start sounding the same, right? Do we lose the ability to like think creatively, critically differently? Because we're so dependent on these tools and models. How do they become thought partners, but not fully our thoughts? Like it's, it's a balance, you know, as a mom of adolescent boys and a manager and a leader of, of teams and something that I'm always super cautious of. And I don't have it figured out.

42:46So if somebody does, I I'd love to learn. Yeah. I thought something similar of like, how do I kind of turn my brain off in this kind of thinking? Because it's like, you are who you, you surround yourself with. And if you surround yourself with LLMs, you start to become it. And I'm like, there, there's probably going to be some process in the future that helps strip that away for a bit, get you back into your like intuitive, creative thinking. So then you can come back and be a little more discerning with what it's giving you. I don't know what that is yet, but I do just, yeah, I think that's needed.

43:16And the art of just like keeping up the ability to write. I think that is the thing where it's just so easy to like train LLM on like how to sound like you and how to be like casual, candid forward, but like direct with some emotional I'll end up like, okay, great. It's dialed in, but what if I just write it myself? How will it sound? And it's a good exercise to go through because I realized like you lose the muscle. Like you lose, it takes you longer because you haven't had to do it as much. And I think it's important. Yeah. And important to remember your own wisdom. Like these LLMs don't have your wisdom, your lived experience, your embodied being a CMO or whatever you were like, only you have that.

43:58So you really can't do that because it's just using a couple of your variables that you put in there yourself that you remember. It's true. It is. It's the hard thing to default when time is so... It's time is precious, right? You have very little of it right now. There's so much to do, but it's a good reminder. Okay. So with everything we've talked about so far, we have gone into many different areas. I'd love, Keri, to hear from you. What should brands be thinking about, especially going into what I think is going to be a massive Black Friday, Cyber Monday? It's going to be a huge event. What should brands be thinking about as they gear up towards that?

44:30Yeah, it's crazy to think that we're almost like we're nearing the end of Q2 or we're mid Q2, which the year has just gone so fast. I think where brands need to be spending time as they look at this coming year. And we've seen some slowing in consumer spend and people are being much more intentional about how they spend. So we'll see how that goes into the year. So to me, that just says it's more important than ever that brands are thinking about their data, their infrastructure, their tools and platforms. By early Q3, you have to kind of know what you're going to be going to market. If you're changing providers or if you're changing or adding a bunch of tooling, you need to be doing that in July to set yourself up for having that testing window.

45:07So get your data in place if it's not so you can actually start leveraging AI and then make sure that you're working with partners who can deliver. I think the other thing that we've really heard from customers in the last few weeks as well as really during that Black Friday, Cyber Monday time, like that whole month, is you can't have partners that have downtime, right? So you've got to choose partners that like are mature enough and have intentionally invested that the platform is going to be dependable. Like this is your brand's biggest moment, massive revenue time for all of our brands. So that's really important.

45:38And then for the AI side, like last year brands that were like AI ready and were using AI tools, we were able to look at the data and like they literally drove 2X more revenue than brands who said like, we haven't really started adopting or using it in our journey start campaigns. that's just going to double again this year, right? So you have to prepare and be ready and get your people, your systems and your tools in place and make sure you're partnering with the right people. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. And that reliability piece. I mean, it is something that I think you don't think about when you're moving fast.

46:07I mean, I even look at some of the tools that I've built on and I'm like, now that one's down for half a day. Like I didn't even think about that. I just thought like you do a good job doing what you do, but not, okay. They also have gone down multiple times and I've never looked at the history of what's happened with them since inception. Yeah. If you're DSW shoes, right? Like that group is looking at revenue and numbers every hour. Like if you're looking at hourly numbers, then you're going to, it's going to hurt if your provider goes out for eight of those hours one day. Yep. Yep. Okay. So I want to shift us over to the lightning round, which you have done before.

46:40So you know exactly what we're about to do. I'm going to send a question your way. Still coffee one. So it's still early here in the Pacific Northwest. I believe in you this whole time. You've just been fire. So I trust and carry. Okay. First question. What is a trend that you are genuinely betting on right now that has nothing to do with AI? Genuinely betting both personally and professionally on the sense of community and human connection. We work remote. We work like we're just more separated than ever physically. And so I think anything we can do for that in-person or even more intentional time online that's personal where people feel seen, 100 % betting and doubling down on that.

47:20Yep. I agree. Yes. What skill do you think is really important for kids to learn right now to prep them for the future of work? This isn't just for me. I just need to know. You're asking the mom of an 18 and 21 year old boy. You're farther along. I'm like, you know, everything. Let me know. It is problem solving and resilience, not giving up the first time you fail. Like I, I see it in my kids over and over again. They're like, ah, I can't figure it out. I'm like, well, how many times did you try? He's like, well, I tried to get the lock unlocked. We have this gate for our boat area. And I'm like, how many, he's like, well, I tried it once.

47:56But well, did you try moving it? Did you try it to try it moving the key? Did you try two or three different ways? It's like, no, why I tried. I'm like, you know, that resilience to try again and not accept that you can't do something where it's like, I tried, I, you know, I did my best. I'm like, no, that's, that's not it. So I think that's it is like learning to problem solve in a way that they have confidence that they're capable. I see it translate as they get into the professional world. And so I think truly like problem solving skills. Yeah. That's just a good life lesson in general for any age.

48:28I think we'll just, everyone should try that. Try, try harder. Just like keep, we'll try again. Right. And like, once you fail three or four times and let's talk about why so that resilience and problem solving yeah I have a quote that my husband loves when I bring it out because he was telling me like one day he's like Steph I tried my best and I was like try someone else's best how about their best what would like I don't know if I could get away with that but I like it I do like it yeah just slide it under there see if it works you'll either be divorced or no, it's just, it's an interesting, like, I think we as parents want to like alleviate friction and make our kids' lives as easy as possible.

49:10But that's not what creates like the most resilient focused kids who can like think of themselves. I agree. What is a marketing belief or a framework that you used to swear by that now you've backed away from completely? Honestly, like the three or so that I use like over and over again, I haven't backed off at all. I do think the one that I'm backing off on mostly is if it's not in the data, then don't believe. Right. And that to me is like the last few years with like, if you like to get a CEO to believe something in marketing, you had to have all the data. It's like, we need time and data. And I think that's the changes.

49:49Like when it comes to brand, like there's no brand versus demand, like great brands drive demand. Like the ability to get somebody's attention will help you drive that, right? But that can take time and you might have to try a few things and they won't have direct ROI, right? It's not the golden years of like, okay, if you just spend more on meta, then you will get more leads and they'll likely keep the same quality. Like that's not where we are. So I think that's the only one that maybe have data, have the details, but be willing to make decisions to move forward, even if you can't have it all, because you've got to be able to test and try some of the brand belief systems out there that are just not as easy to prove out.

50:26Yeah. I don't know if you can answer this one quickly, but what are the three frameworks that you've not backed away from this entire time? That's cool too. Okay. So no feel do. It was ingrained into me in a really early stage of my career. It's like, anytime you plan for an audience, whether that's a broad audience you're marketing to, or I grew up in the experiential production event space for like 60 ,000 purse arena shows for corporations. It's like, what do you want them to know? How do you want them to feel about what that is and what do you want them to go do? Answer those three things and stay true to them in your planning.

50:58And you're likely not going to miss when it comes to getting it right. The what's in it for them, kind of a similar model, but like somebody will come to me and they'll be like, this is my plan. This is what I'm doing. I'm like, okay. And that's for our field who has asked like, what are, what's in it for them? Not what do you get? What makes your life easier, but what is in it for them? I think the WIFA model just is like proven over and over again. And you can externalize that. and then just the three why it's like somebody's like this is what we should do it with why because it's gonna drive like better adoption than open it okay but why does that matter right like get to the why i think is the other one oh i love these okay i'm taking all of these they're really good what is a book that you think every just business leader should be reading or have read oh gosh i mean atomic habits always comes up as one that i've read at least twice now of really basic things to, I maybe even said this last time we talked, because I think I just read it last time we talked, but that's one that just keeps coming up to me.

51:54And I, it just, it, I think when you can create good habits on checking yourself and keeping yourself accountable and making time to be accountable and pushing yourself and taking risks and building that in, that's when you see progress. There's no short-term progress, really. You can't really change behavior as a leader, as a marketer in a very, like, you can learn a new skill quickly, but to change a behavior, like that takes investment and you have to be intentional. And so I think that's just like, even my kids, like that's another one that I make sure. And then the other one is mindset. Like, I just think there's a lot around teaching people on you get to choose how you approach, whether you have like an optimistic positive or like a negative detractor mindset.

52:38And I think that that's, I think my son was in sixth grade when I got him read that. So I believe that you have to learn those behaviors and habits and they're like human habits, not like marketing magic. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay. Well, Carrie, that was the best place to end. Thank you for coming on Marketing Trends again. You're one of my favorite repeat guests. And until next year when you're on again, where should people find you? Tell people how to find your work. Yeah. I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn for Carrie McGee or intensive.com. Those are the best places to follow and find us.

53:11Amazing. Thank you.