#1005 - Warren Smith - J.K. Rowling & The Cost of Speaking Freely

0:00Before we get started, I'm going on tour this winter around the US and Canada, and you can join me. It's an hour and a half long show. There's a half hour Q &A at the end. There's meet and greet. There's music warmed up before I get started by Zach Talander and tickets are limited and you can get yours right now. New York, Boston, Chicago, Austin, Salt Lake City and Denver still have limited tickets left at chriswilliamson.live. That's chriswilliamson.live. All right, let's get into it. J.K. Rowling is back in the news. How do you feel about her recent debacle? I can understand where she's coming from.

0:37I think it was effective. I don't see any problems with it. I can understand why she would say that. I would probably feel the same way if I were in her position, honestly. Yeah, she's become a lightning rod. So for the people that didn't hear, Emma Watson went on Jay Shetty's podcast, said some stuff, and it seems, at least from the outside, like she's starting to sort of roll back some of the condemnation that's been there because maybe it's not as sort of trendy as it used to be and this is kind of the big complaint that everybody has do you actually stand on this principle or are you just blowing with the fucking wind and uh i think jk in this big tweet that's had like 46 million impressions which is that's enough that's enough to get people to take notice uh she literally says it like basically if it wasn't for the fact that she had to say that she loves and treasures me uh jk wouldn't have piped up but she is now beginning to detect this change maybe in the sort of cultural weather vein uh and um yeah dude be careful what you say on the internet yeah i think she's just emma watson's being opportunistic it's interesting though that the tide is turning in that way that's how you can tell that it really is or when people start to perform differently like that and it's all for business interests i think probably but jk rowling i mean if it wasn't for jk rowling i wouldn't be talking to you right now either so some of those things applied i was when i was reading through that tweet is jk rowling messaged me in the wake of my firing and that really meant a lot to me i think authenticity is something that's really important to her but yeah she's a she's a remarkable person to do that to take the time to do that so i have a soft spot in my heart for her always will why do you think she's such a lightning rod for this stuff what's uniquely interesting about her position well i think it's first and foremost that her work is the best-selling book in the world next to the bible it's for millennials it's it's our star wars it's more than that so she created this she became richer than the queen off of fiction so there's that but i mean her position i think is rather mainstream conventional it's not risque in any way and i think that's why that's one of the reasons i think it's become such a zeitgeist just people when they listen to it it's like this is very reasonable it seems very logical that's part of the reason why that video of me talking to the student did what it did because it's just so common sense it seems like there's nothing crazy about her position could you give a uh 30 000 foot view recap i know it was a little while ago now but just for the people that don't know the warren smith law um just do do the uh previously on this season yeah so i was teaching content creation multimedia we were supposed to do a newscast student was feeling kind of nervous so i said let's do a warm-up i'll sit here in the chair you what do you want to talk about just ask me we would do things like this have a little podcast and he's like well how have your views on jk rowling changed given her bigoted opinions it's like okay well when you say bigoted opinions what are you basing that on well these there's all these tweets she said i can show them to you if you'd like to see sure let's let's pull them up so he pulls them up we run through them the whole exchange was like five minutes and i didn't think it was that interesting or that crazy but that's and then i uploaded it to like my little rinky dink youtube channel where i had clips of me teaching and i called it like my teaching portfolio because we had to submit artifacts for teaching port our portfolio and i would have clips of me teaching and someone grabbed it and pulled it over to twitter where i was not active on twitter and that's where it went crazy yeah and then what happened a couple months went by everything changed very quickly two days after that pierce morgan had me on for like a 15 minute conversation i was completely out of my depth and i came in the next day and just acted like nothing happened and try and that didn't work denial is always a wonderful strategy i think well yeah no it didn't work and then that so then that afternoon because pierce morgan his producers they just want the flavor of the day like so they jumped right on it and they're like will you do this and i was working with one teacher we used to record in this space so after that we set the space up and started once a week making videos and so i told him i was like they want me to come on pierce morgan what should i do like is the school gonna get mad but he's like yeah they'll they'll get mad but it's like just do it you know just because if i ask they're just gonna give me some long thing that i think they'll make it impossible whatever it is forgiveness yeah it's it i knew i was in the midst of a once in a lifetime opportunity and i was at a fork in the road it's like do you make the most of this and i didn't know where it would go at that time all it was was one little video you know but there was the potential to try and make something so i did it it went on pierce morgan and then the next day they kind of got pissed but then i had to meet with all the lawyers and they called me in with the head of the school and who's never there um but she was there for that it they said well you didn't break any rules you didn't you have the releases this and you didn't reveal any information you you handled it delicately you didn't really take a biased position and so congrats they literally said congratulations you know and then but several there were teachers there that were upset with solely on my position my position around jk rowling which yeah i think it's unfair to call her bigoted but i didn't really say that in the video but that's where the student arrived at so they took it as a position and there were people coming up to be like how are you not fired and i was like i didn't they said i didn't do anything wrong with it you know and but there were people that were upset and it just kind of but we kept making in this space kept making videos once a week and it was getting a little bit of traction and i think they just were waiting until the storm blew over to be able to pounce it and i get it from a business perspective it can be a liability if you have a teacher like making youtube videos and people are actually watching them to some extent even though it's very small back then so but it was the way they did it like i would understand if they'd be like yeah it's not quite our cup of tea it's just a bit of a liability so we're gonna part ways but that wasn't what happened at all it was like we'll sign this nda we'll pay you to sign this nda felt like they were just trying to destroy me dude it was crazy it was one of the most challenging periods of my life for sure like yeah so that's that's the lore what have you come to reflect on with regards to that difficult time i think a lot of people maybe not quite so publicly maybe not with quite so many eyeballs but people go through periods where they get kicked in the nuts a lot and it seems to happen sequentially uh in bunches with the benefit of hindsight now, how do you think about that experience as part of the arc of your life?

8:55Well, it was the period that shaped me. It's one of the laws of narrative. If you're trying to write a screenplay, you have to have obstacles for the hero to overcome or whatnot. And we're all trying to become the heroes in our own story, whether we want to admit it or not. And the more adversity, Literally the week before that video went viral, I was watching the David Beckham documentary. And I was like, this is a really good documentary. And this really resonates because he was getting knocked down. He was struggling. And that made it compelling. And then his son becomes a soccer player in the documentary.

9:31I was like, I don't care about this guy at all because he had no adversity. He was just handed this opportunity. So for some reason, that was in my mind at that time. I wouldn't change anything. I got lucky. I was walking a knife's edge, but I made it through. It was scary. It was really difficult, but it's, I wouldn't change. Cause if you make one adjustment, who knows how that would. So I wouldn't change anything, but it was, it's been remarkable. It was, I would describe it as like, cause I've been a genuine fan of this space. I've been watching your show a long time. The people I've gotten to meet.

10:15Imagine watching your favorite football team. And suddenly overnight, you're given this opportunity to be on the field. And Tom Brady's throwing you the football. And you catch it. Now you just, I'm going to run as far down this field until someone tackles me. See how far I can get. That was my mentality. And that's what I'm doing. you know yeah it's a i resonate with that um the

10:47turning idols into rivals or friends is uh like a really weird sensation um it's a very facade thing and it takes a little bit of time for you to sort of come back down to earth and uh you know everybody can play it off as cool and i think a lot of people in this space do and after a while you habituate you're like oh there's andrew huberman or oh there's fucking joe rogan or whatever like oh there's matthew mcconaughey and matthew mcconaughey on the other week and um you do habituate to it in some ways but there's a bit of me that doesn't want to there's a bit of me that doesn't want to habituate to this there's a bit of me that wants to say yo my favorite movie in history is interstellar and the main guy knows me personally by name and has my phone number yeah that's fucking sick like i should be fired up about that like i should i should every time that happens i should be really excited and enthusiastic i shouldn't be like cooler than cool yeah it's it's just all it's old fucking matt over there you know double m or whatever like no like that's fucking sick like let it infuse you that's how i felt when jk rowling sent me that message and was like can i do anything like that's the most treasured like message i've gotten it's just a message but it's surreal that was so surreal yeah so and And I didn't know how to respond to it.

12:09And I still think about it now that she's back in the news with everything we're talking about. I was like, man, I hope I didn't say anything like Emma Watson did. Yeah, totally fine. I think it was fine. Yeah, you've got a quote that says, when conversations are not allowed to occur, it only makes the problem worse. Yeah, we've seen that for sure. And that's similar to something that's been kind of going viral that Charlie Kirk said. He's like, when conversations, when we stop talking, that's when bad things happen that's when violence occurs so yeah i think conversations are absolutely essential there's only really two forms of communication that has impact there's words and then there's violence like that i i can't think of what else there is like i guess music but you're not really communicating much through music yeah there's words in action you I describe it as like words are the boats floating on the surface.

13:06And we really communicate most of what we really think, I think, through nonverbal communication and action. And back to the narrative idea with actors, that's what people like Matthew McConaughey really dig into is the subtext in the scene. They understand that the words are just the tools. Anybody given enough time can memorize that script. But what Matthew McConaughey does so well is everything else beyond the words. It's kind of going off on a tangent. there, but that's how I think about it. Conflict is a form of action for sure. I was thinking about this. I did this retreat recently, and it's the most intense thing that I've ever done.

13:45And I spent 12 hours a day from 9am until 9pm basically working with emotions on a farm in Sonoma County. And I still, to be honest, don't fully know what to make of it. I haven't come back down to planet Earth fully yet. But one of the things that I did realize is the amount of information that was conveyed during the exercises and the practices and the processes that we were going through as a group and in pairs and on our own, so much of it was not about words. So little of it was actually about words. However, if you look at how most people communicate, it is through mediums that exclusively transact in words.

14:31There's no body language of a message. There's not really even that much body language over what we're doing right now. Uh, there's just, there's the, the aperture through which you're seeing this is squeezing this communication down. And like, you can sit with somebody and without getting into woo energy, astral realm, fucking five dimensional territory, you can sit with someone and you can tell if that person that sat opposite you is calm and peaceful, or agitated or sad without saying a fucking word, right? Okay. But all of that type of communication has been lost. And I wonder whether it has, it feels to me like it's led everybody, it's encouraged everybody to really lean into hypertrophying the word talking portion of things and completely pushing to one side that, well, okay, well, how do I feel right now?

15:27Like what is the emotional context that's going on here how is this other person showing up what are the things that aren't being said what's the pacing between the words that they're saying what's the tone that they're saying this in you know especially over text message all of this stuff is lost and um it reminded me working with emotions for an entire week and basically doing like navy seal boot camp for fucking feeling your feelings um really drilled it home to me how low resolution almost all of our communication is now and okay what are the implications of that if you keep on spinning it up yeah yeah it's nothing replaced in person for sure

16:11yeah i don't really know what to say about that that's well put though um political violence attitudes some new uh data that's just come out the percentage of students who support using violence to stop a campus speech is up 10 points from 2021. So that's 34 % against 24%. 47 % of Gen Z agree that violence can be justified to advance a political goal. That's against 22 % of boomers, 47, 22. In 2025, 38 % of US college students said violence is acceptable to prevent hate speech on campus. And 71 % of students are at least accepting of shouting down speakers and 54 % of physically blocking other students from attending a campus speech.

16:57I recently did a video on an independent journalist, a guy with a camera on Emerson campus, which is my college, where I still teach like one class online, but I went there for grad school and taught there. And he asked the students about that 34 % survey. And their response was, I'm surprised it's not higher at Harvard as well. He went to Emerson and then Harvard. And at Harvard, he asked that specific question. He goes, well, why? What do you mean? Well, Harvard's very liberal. I was just thinking, think about what you're saying. Like, think about the logic there. Well, liberals believe that violence is a legitimate form of response to speech.

17:39It's just crazy. It's been a crazy time, man, after Charlie Kirk. what's your what's your post-mortem culturally on this it's i think it's getting worse because there's that period right after it where people are walking on eggshells the people that disagree with them people are being very careful and kind of sympathetic with those that disagree with them many there's a lot of crazy people that this doesn't apply to it's kind of this period of mourning and then that passes and the mood the news cycle picks back up events continue and it and people kind of revert back to their their older ways we're seeing what's happening in portland i i just think it's it's not looking good is my overall take i think it was very illuminating though seeing those responses which has been some of a big wake-up call for me and i've been trying to shine a light on that as much as i can through these videos but like that hit me hard seeing that at emerson because but it didn't surprise me but i'm hoping that people i know like my family that disagrees with me will see will kind of understand more about where I'm coming from because it's like, look, this is like literally where I was.

19:10I was sitting next to these kind of people for years. This kind of, maybe this can explain a little bit of why I am the way I am now or whatnot, because I know they're struggling with understanding that around me. So that's been, I think a lot, it's been a wake up call for some people, but I'm generally, my responsibility, I'm deeply concerned about it, where this could go. This episode is brought to you by Gymshark. You want to look and feel good when you're in the gym. Gymshark makes the best men's and girls gym wear on the planet. Let's face it, the more that you like your gym kit, the more likely you are to train.

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20:19What are you deeply concerned about and where could it go? Well, so just yesterday we had Nick Shirley in Portland. The last video I did was covering him And a guy comes up to him, Antifa, and he threatens to shoot him because he was putting a camera in his face. And then two snipers on top of the roof, this is what it looks like from the video, paint with their lasers on him. And Nick points, he's like, dude, there's a sniper pointing at you right now. And there's a dot on his chest. And it gets him to deescalate and back off. I think it's only a matter of time until it's not just painting a target and someone pulls the trigger on either side.

21:05And that's where I'm worried that something is going to happen that's going to escalate things. More so than Charlie Kirk being shot. Well, what do you mean by more so? because what is it that doesn't make that the escalation we've had this event which has occurred uh you're presumably one of the things let's say that that event hadn't occurred and you were noticing these rumblings below the surface charlie kirk being shot would be the precise sort of thing that would be the sort of thing that would be an escalation so we've seen this one so does it do you feel a little bit like um there was a bunch of kerosene on the ground and someone lit a match and flicked it, but it happened to land just like a little bit off.

21:52It didn't quite catch fire to everything else, but that might not be the case if another inflammatory sort of event occurs. Well, yeah, the kerosene was definitely there. It is interesting to note that there was not a massive response from Charlie Kirk fans. We'll just say people on the right or whatnot. There was not rioting, and yeah, that's been pointed out. But I think my concern would be that same event with the opposite side of the political spectrum. I mean, we've seen BLM, we've seen the riots. There seems to be a tendency for certain ideologies tend to be more inclined to demonstrate frustration in different ways.

22:42So in a way, it's like that's bad. They threw something really bad at the world. And a small sliver of hope perhaps comes out of the fact that we were able to handle it or this side was able of the spectrum. It didn't go bonkers. I don't have a... I mean, don't you feel in a way like this could go south? am I off for feeling like there's potential here for this? Because you're right, that was an escalation. I'm glad it didn't spark off into violence. There's no rioting. Yes, there's protests going off in Portland around other topics. I mean, what are your thoughts on it? I think you're right to be concerned.

23:38It does say a lot that we've kind of become desensitized. sensitize. We were talking about the habituation earlier on, like, oh, there's JK Rowling in my DMs. It's like, oh, there's a huge, like another assassination attempt on a real public figure in the space of 12 months. And I don't, it's strange, especially given that I'm still in my feely feels after my week working on emotions. It's strange that we are able to continue moving forward that you can get up and go to work that like that's just a thing that happens and i guess you know humans need to fucking put bread on the table and go to the bathroom and walk the dog and stuff but it it doesn't exactly fill me with hope uh that this is although horrific and uh an atrocity just another news story that you know the world continues spinning and yeah we've got charlie kirk remembrance day i think which was passed which which is a very nice tribute but yeah i one one question that i do have that i realized while you were talking there how do you square the circle of what you brought up, which is hinting at a tendency for the left, at least parts of the left in its current iteration, to be more kinetic, BLM riots, et cetera, et cetera.

25:12How do you square that circle with some of the reports that I've seen coming out from maybe domestic threats, maybe FBI statistics saying that most of the domestic terror concern comes from right of center groups as opposed to left of center groups. Have you seen this? Do you know what I'm talking about? No. Is this the study that people were saying, oh, they removed it or something? No, I'm not familiar with that study. Basically, uh, it seems like a lot of the, uh, some of the studies suggest that it is groups right of center that are the biggest threat. Um, I just wonder, taking my big broad perspective of the news stories that have really come across me over the last half decade, I would say the same thing.

26:03You know, we saw, um, what was that place where everybody charlottesville you remember charlottesville yeah yeah yeah like when was the last time that we saw something like a charlottesville i i can't remember yeah i don't i i can't remember either well january 6th where they would probably there we go yes that is true that was quite a big one uh says it all that i've managed to forget that um so yeah fair enough maybe maybe you're right maybe it's maybe it's equal on both sides um i don't i'm not saying it's equal but it's i've been trying to look at this not through the lens of because it becomes a reductive game it's to try and equivocate between this yeah yeah your side did january 6th and this and you did this on this date and our side it's like we're not that's not yeah i just think how many january 6th is one blm how many yeah yeah because my my initial response and this is the i think for many people it was like this is not right verse left this is good versus evil but then it's like wait a minute but that's exactly what can that's a dangerous game to play because that's what can drive people to kill someone like charlie because they think they're facing genuine evil i have friends that have kind of tossed me away because it's they what's a friendship when you're genuinely up against fascism and genuine evil in their minds which is in their minds what i stand for so you've been reducing that down to it's correct behavior versus incorrect behavior, really, because there's also plenty of Democrats or liberals that aren't celebrating Charlie Kirk's death and that would say, you're ridiculous for saying these things.

27:45So it's not just Democrat, Republican.

27:52So there's going to be people with incorrect behavior on the right side and the left side. But I think there's something about the ideology or this way of thinking that has flourished from postmodernism, a victim mentality. It resonates with a certain personality that seems to me to resonate more with mass protesting, more inclination towards what we saw around the riots, Summer of Love, BLM riots. so i i do there is something within the ideas reflected largely on this side echo with certain types of action versus the ideas reflected on we'll just say the traditional conservative family more religious values you know the the personal responsibility have a family these that conserve the true great traditions of the past there's not as much inclination what i just said towards burn it down as opposed to we're all being oppressed by this by the west burn it down which is literally baked into the ideology yeah it's interesting isn't it because the burn it down thing i didn't know it it feels a little bit like if you were to if you were to tell somebody from 10 years ago that it would be uh people on the right that weren't responding to this sort of stuff in a kinetic way, I think that might be a little bit surprising.

29:20You know, one of the big concerns that lots of people have who are in the center is that if the left keeps on poking the bear, then the right is going to respond eventually, which it sounds like is one of the concerns you have, or you just get escalating violence on all sides. But the right is really fucking well armed. And there's probably a lot of people in there that are ex-military and et cetera, et cetera. So like if you were to just take the attributes of both sides, you should assume, I think, that right is like, oh, fucking hell. Like those guys are going to be pretty quick on the trigger, like defending myself, defending my beliefs, defending my tribe in that way, as opposed to a group that on the surface is like more compassionate, more open.

30:07And it doesn't seem to be necessarily playing out that way. Yeah, I think it's unlikely that we'll see a civil war in the way we think of civil war, where it's literally an organized elite. They have declared themselves independent and they are rebelling against, it would be the federal government with all the military and police. I think that's unless it was some bizarre certain states I just can't imagine it so when I'm talking about escalating conflict I don't necessarily mean as a civil war it's something much more invisible less more difficult to see that I don't know. I don't think it's going.

31:02All right. So going back to the stats about campus being shouted down. Yeah. If free speech can be shouted down, does it even exist at all? Like what does it mean when it comes into contact with a human arm-in-arm blockade? Yeah. That's a good question. I would say philosophically, it still does exist. Because yes, rights are always, I got into a pickle around this, but Andrew Wilson was talking about this. Rights are bound by force. Rights, he's someone who claims that rights all come down at the end of the day to what can be enforced. So your right to freedom of speech, it's only if it still is going to be bound by force.

31:55It's only if you can protect it. But yes, I can be, people can shout me down, but that doesn't negate within the context of the legal system. Like it doesn't negate my right. But functionally. Yeah. In the moment, functionally, you're shouting me down. Yeah. I understand you, uh, spoken like a, a true academic, um, that, uh, the, the theory, the principle, the philosophy of free speech is still there. but if it can't be actioned in the real world is that am i being am i being stupid here or is this like no no it would just have to be at such a large scale for it because okay they shout me down on the college campus i go make a youtube video about it and i reach way more people so but in that moment on the college campus yes but i have this kind of my personal philosophy and i can't is that there's objective truth the fabric of reality which is reflected by this what i call the audience kind of when you make a youtube video it's this thing that it's not just a mass of people but and you can't you can't ignore there's no escaping them so if they shout me down on the campus you they can't escape the audience which reflects the fabric of reality.

33:14So then I do make a video about it. It's almost like their actions compound and it draws more attention to it because they're taking an action against something that I think is very much real. These are not just social constructs. The idea of freedom of speech, yes, we have these conceptualizations of them. That's how we use the words floating on the surface to articulate it. But I think these are the same idea the founding fathers put forth with these truths are self-evident from God, objective truth, whatever you want to substitute there, but that's the fabric of reality. And so there's no, the audience, people can make noise, but nothing can change what is that objective truth that we're striving for.

33:56And I think that's what knowledge is, is trying to map onto what is truth, which is the exact opposite of post-modernism though. And that's where it gets interesting. Before we continue, you are probably not eating enough fruit and vegetables, you know it. This is going to help. AG1 just released their Next Gen formula, which is a more advanced clinically backed version of the product I've been drinking every day for years, delivering more than 75 vitamins, including your multivitamin, pre and probiotic, superfood greens, and more. And for the first time, they've added new flavors, tropical, citrus, and berry, only available in the US and Canada.

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35:07So you've got nothing to lose right now and get a year's free supply of vitamin D3K2 and AG1 travel packs plus that 90 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. Do you think government funding should hinge on whether or university actually protects dissenting voices? Protects dissenting voices. There's a big conversation to have around tax, why taxpayers are financing places like Emerson. They get so sneaky in those parameters. For example, Emerson just changed what used to be the social justice center because of this very issue.

35:58what you're describing. They just changed the name to the Office of Equal Opportunity. Because equality is equal opportunity. Equity is equal outcome. So they learned, and that's what colleges are doing. But then you see the video content or you talk to students, and they're, I'm surprised it's only 34 % celebrating Charlie Kirk's murder. It's so, but yeah, my answer to you would be yes. I don't think I'm very skeptical about the government providing tax money to these universities. It doesn't seem to me like children and young people, students are being taught to resolve problems constructively.

36:46This feels like a skill issue. yeah i mean i i think it's because so few of the professors the people that would be having the conversations have differing opinions it's just overwhelming it's impossible to even articulate unless you see it for yourself which is what i'm trying to do with the videos it's the closest i can do is when i see footage like that that's when i get most excited it. Like my favorite video I ever made was Joe Rogan talking to a postmodern professor on his show. Because to me, that was like, finally, I can shine a light where this is a real professor who's saying these things with his own words.

37:33Because I could talk to him blue in the face about postmodernism. Jordan Peterson's done it. And people just don't believe you or they just roll their eyes. And it's too philosophical. But then you hear him get up there and say, no, there's no such thing as knowledge, objective truth. Everything is a social construct. He's making it crystal clear that there's no such thing as the fabric of reality to strive for. Because knowledge is evolving, therefore, his logic is we don't really know anything. And you can see where that goes. I guess my point is you have to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

38:16And that was one example where I was able to do that. And I was like, he's literally saying it to you. So if this doesn't show you, I don't know what will. Yeah. It feels a little bit to me like, uh, inverse exposure therapy. So the fact that so few alternate voices are, um, going onto campus that whatever some absurd percentage of students self-censor for fear of being judged and shamed by their fellow classmates that you have a changing shifting demographic when it comes to who is teaching at universities as well you even have a shifting demographic of who's attending universities right a significant uh increase in in women going versus men and it's very difficult to be a university professor that didn't go to university so like that is your stock of future professors are the ones that are going and uh all of these things together it's a great great study by cory clark you should have a look at it it stinks of you it stinks of your channel brilliant and um uh she sent a survey to every psychology professor in the u.s didn't get a response from all of them got a big fucking response talking about what topics should not be uh allowed and there's a huge sex difference there's a massive sex difference between men and women and there's a huge difference it was really really interesting my point is when you take this milieu altogether, what you end up with is students basically never hearing top down, like side to side, or random inclusions of other people from speakers and guests and stuff like that.

40:09There is this ever actually and inside out, right with their own self censorship. there is just this

40:19a increasing fragility or an increasing sort of unidimensionality to the type of topics that they're being exposed to does that all make sense? yeah, no, it's absolutely true it's just worse than you're absolutely right I'm right but it's worse than I'm right words, there's no words this is the limitation of words like there's no words to capture what is actually happening how so

40:53so