#1019 - Fin Taylor & Horatio Gould - History is a Freakshow

33:33That doesn't really happen in conflicts since. I guess we're afraid... You're saying sartorially World War II was the sort of pinnacle. You have to say that. And also, when you're looking at Hitler in the 30s, people didn't have a Hitler to compare him to. No. So the idea of evil is... Hitler. Hitler invented that, really. And also, it didn't really come in until the videos from the camps came out. Yeah. the kind of idea of this like everyone comparing everything to Hitler there being this idea of true evil and stuff like that that just didn't really exist in the same way obviously there was like religious things where it's like heretics and that sort of but our modern sense of evil is all comes from that and the bad guy you know like James Bond all the outfits did Blofeld's a dictator kind of cause you know that whole culturally we're so born out of World War II yeah like action films but then have you seen I don't know what your algorithms like.

34:29The amount of pro-Hitler stuff is getting crazy. Pro-Hitler stuff. You're not getting it? I haven't seen any of that. What's on your algorithm, Chris? Like, just dog videos. It's very fluffy, mine. I don't tend to get much of that. Boobs? Boobs? Boobs? No, not really. What is going on? I'm tits in Hitler. It's crazy. Okay. Mine's just... It's not even Hitler. It's just it. So what do you mean pro-Hitler? Oh, it's crazy. There's like a whole community of stuff. Also the Pakistani guy with the mustache. Yeah, yeah. He does pranks in a... Oh, I love that guy. Shout out. I don't know what his name is.

35:00It's like... What's shocking is like... There's like... Hitler's speech has been translated into English. And it's not only like memes that are like, I guess, kind of quite like nihilistic, like being pro-Hitler because it's edgy, whatever. It's the comments that there's a whole... So is it ironic or not? No, it's broken past irony. It's genuinely pretty terrifying. Okay. So it'd be like, we owe Germany an apology. That would be a lot of the comments. Is it just anti-Semitism repackaged as pro-Hitler it's i um i got a friend who sends me all these because it's just well that's where the algorithm yeah probably considered it might just be him uh and on twitter it's not me i should just stress i have a friend you sat next to me in the room yeah some you sent me some but on on twitter now that elon's taking the handbrake off it's just gone crazy the nazi stuff uh i got sent uh like a three-hour documentary with like a quite a proper voiceover well produced it's like a pro Hitler one.

35:55It opens with a misunderstood artist, a man who changed the world. So like, there is definitely, I think when you're told someone's evil and that's like the most defined kind of like truth. Yes. The idea that you've been lied to is thrilling for a lot of people. Very seductive. Very seductive for sure. But it is definitely crazy what's going on online in the Hitler space at the moment. The Hitler sphere. Are we in the Hitler sphere? We're in the Hitlosphere. You are orbiting the Hitlosphere. We're the sun, I think. A quick aside, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And it just got even better.

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37:48That's drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. I would not have guessed that. There's videos of Hitler playing with his dog, trying to show his light aside. They are. I mean, they're great videos. I really like them. Happy Hitler. He told you something about the photo shoot he did. Was it in the 20s? Yeah. It was a photo shoot. Or maybe it was the early 30s. When he's trying to work out his act. But it is like a comedian. Does he do early bits? Is there any of his early material? The work in progress shows of Hitler. There's very rare, these very rare photos basically where Hitler's trying to work out his like, his shtick.

38:26Yeah. You know, because it doesn't just come straight out. When does that? That's Chaplin. He's the biggest Chaplin fan in the world. Right. And it's hard to get at Hitler, but he got every Chaplin film sent to him. And then in 1941, won a great film the great dictator an amazing chaplain film uh which is a parody of hitler during the war made in the middle of world war ii he gets everything sent to it and this got sent to him and he made fun of him and he was heartbroken it was like because of your hero your biggest hero the guy who's fucking facial hair wouldn't it have been a real middle finger if he just shaved it off chaplain no if yeah oh actually that would have been even worse yeah yeah hitler doing the middle finger i feel he's done a lot worse i don't think i feel the holocaust was middle yeah but that that's worse than that was that aimed at chaplain the holocaust no i guess not i guess not fuck you charlie i'll teach you yeah no i don't think i don't think we can say that hot take no chaplain calls the holocaust it's the thumbnail title of this yeah that might work um yeah i don't know the the trying to repurpose or trying to reinvent Hitler's position and what he stood for seems like well it's very it's fringe now but all these things that were fringe five years ago coming into the mainstream so I wouldn't be surprised niches are getting bigger yeah yeah niches are big now because of the fragmentation because the echo chambers actually start to grow because it's more that if if the market digitally is everyone then a niche of that market is a massive amount of people yeah it's enough to hold a community together.

40:03Exactly. Totally. Wow. Yeah. I, uh, I love that John Lyle book because all of the little obscure bits and pieces of stories that were in history, there was this thing I learned, you're talking about Japanese before. At some point, the CIO, the OSS tried to scare the Japanese by putting a luminous paint. Foxes are an O a bad omen in Japan apparently. so they tried to scare them with glow in the dark what they thought would be foxes but they couldn't get enough foxes so I think they used something and not skunks they used some other type of creature and then they put them in water and found that they washed up both dead and the water the stuff had been washed off luminous paint yeah had been washed off them so then they put a huge fox head out with a PA system and broadcast like sounds it's crazy what they tried to do to in a desperate attempt to just psyop.

40:58Like the early versions of psyops really, like it was wet clay that people were playing with. Well, there was like, they tried everything and they're like, we're going to have to put a nuclear bomb on them, aren't we? We've done the big screaming fox head. Yeah. That didn't work. Tried to trans Hitler. But that's like the, We tried everything. In the Aztecs, do you remember? In the Aztecs series, when there was a holding out against Cortez and Conguistadors, their version of the nuclear bomb is a guy dressed as a man. This is the last, this is like the, but when the Aztecs doing their like final stand.

41:27The ultimate deterrent. You don't want to press the button, but you do. And it's a guy dressed as a massive owl. Yeah. Who comes out and goes, ooh, and they all just shoot. And they're like, we don't want to have to use this, but you forced our hands. Yeah. And then the owl guy comes up, ooh, and then Spanish just kill him. And they're like, okay, right. It's the equivalent of dropping the nuclear bomb, but it bounces off. Yeah. It's into the sea. It's like, oh, fuck. Or the nuclear bomb, you drop out a plane, a guy dressed as an owl. Yeah.

41:58you should drop on the roshma yeah i know nothing about the aztecs the only thing i'll say about that is the misconception is it it should be viewed more as a civil war than like a colonizing thing because it was like there was everyone talks about there's like 600 conquistadors yeah who took over all the aztecs it was actually two aztecs that were the mexica was a rival clan with who were fucking over loads of other can you remember the name of the rival clan i remember a lot Clach-Clarlands. Yeah. Clach-Clarlands. Yeah, Clach-Clarlands. And then they basically allied with the Spanish to take over the Aztecs.

42:36Internal civil war assisted by someone from outside. What's missing is that it wasn't 600 conquistadors versus all the Aztecs. It was 600 conquistadors with thousands of other Clach-Clarlands. Versus a guy in a massive owl suit. I mean, yeah, with an owl suit. They had guns and... One guy had an owl suit. yeah yeah were the were the aztecs as brutal as yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah to be fair it's pretty not similar to the kind of you think you know the seppuku thing with japan that's a stereotype oh no it's not similar to the oh the human sacrifice oh they fucking loved it what was the festival what was the timing of this what what this was to be fair because you always when you think of aztecs it feels ancient yeah it's medieval right well it's a it's a it's a it's a meeting of worlds to the architects.

43:20And it's basically an Iron Age civilization with a kind of early modern European one. That's the... So they had... Is it 15, 16? I want to say Cortez. But they didn't have iron, they didn't have steel. They did sort of have wheels, but they didn't have wheels. They didn't have wheels that they'd actually use. They'd thought of a wheel, but they hadn't made a wheel. They made a... That was wheels on kids' toys, but they'd never thought to use that to carry stuff. But it's funny because they would chop people's heads off the top of these pyramids in the human sacrifice, rip their heart out, chop their head off, and the head would roll down the steps.

43:49And they didn't quite link that rolling with the wheel. Yeah, it was interesting. Like the physics was there. They did invent Slinkies. Yeah. No, that's a joke. That's not true. That's where our podcasts... Yeah, we can't give them the credit of inventing Slinkies. We don't know. Do you know who invented the Slinky? I don't know. No, we can't know. I imagine it was an American in the 70s. We can't know. That's my feeling. But what was the Festival of Blood? It was like the crazy one. It was basically a bank holiday festival where they killed 80 ,000 people. So yeah, like a day off work, day off school.

44:17But what, like criminals? uh no be right it would be the tachkla lands these guys from the tachkla so you if you got if you got captured they would not like killing you in battle they're like capturing you to then sacrifice you to their gods okay because also their form of battle was more like a step up dance battle yeah like it was a bit more ritualistic so that's why the spanish when they're just like shooting them it's like oh i thought it was more like a that's why the owl guy is the the end thing yeah because it's a dance off and you go i thought it was more like body popping I can't compete with a guy body popping just now this dance off is over there's one guy doing the work yeah yeah but yeah they'd killed like 80 ,000 people at once and they're like just the stench of blood was just extraordinary there was blood everywhere they're doing it they don't have steel so they're doing it obsidian glass what's that it's like a rock black glass volcanic sort of rock it's sort of like glass and it's very sharp oh and you chip yeah you shave it A flint type thing, but super sharp.

45:16Super sharp. So they're cutting into the breastbone and pulling it out. After the head? No. So you see that and then they... Fucking hell! And then they have a big axe, an obsidian axe, I think. So if your heart gets taken out, do you get like a couple of free pumps? Where you get to see it for a second? No, I think the blood's still going round. But it's like heads get cut off. There's still a bit of consciousness for a few seconds, isn't there? Or is that chickens? No, you can't. No, you can't. No, no, no. Are you telling me if you chop my head off my POV I'll see the carpet as I'm falling towards it?

45:50Yeah, because there's a lag, right? Wow. Again, Can you get one of your science guys on? Do you have anyone get your fucking head guys on this? The real test of the Brian Johnson is if someone cuts his head off and he How long does he stay alive? Because if it's longer than if they cut my head off then fair play. Fair play. Have you had Brian Johnson on this? I have. Yeah. Yeah, it was once a while ago. He's a sweetie. He's a really sweet guy. I tell you what, I did say it'd be funny if he got hit by a bus just because like, comedically. Yeah, if he died at 62 because he got run over, it is funny.

46:26But it is nice to have someone nosing about in that sphere. Someone's got to be doing it. It's nice to have just a person doing it because people really don't like it. The way to think about Brian Johnson is that he is like a scout in an army and you don't want an army that's filled with scouts. And I also probably myself don't want to be the guy that tries to climb up to the top of that mountain to see if there's something interesting over the far side. And I'm like, but I'll happily have him go up and come back and tell us, let me tell you what I found up there. If he comes back. He's nosy as hell.

46:53But he did say - He's digging around. It's like, you shouldn't be digging around in there, lad. He did. It's like trying to change the source code OS of your Windows computer, Windows XP. You're like, mate, you're going to break something in there. But he did tweet not long ago. He said, I guarantee I will die in the most hilarious and ironic way possible. Yeah. Well, it's just cosmically, you know, it would be too funny. to just slip in a banana and hit his head. Because the oldest person in the world right now is British, Ethel. Ethel Caterham. Ethel Caterham was starting a campaign. She has to overtake the record which is held by a French woman.

47:26Another campaign was starting a podcast. I think she's been cooking the books though, the French woman. There's a campaign was starting a podcast to get Ethel Caterham passed. So Ethel Caterham's I think on 113? She's 127, I believe. No. No, no. The French one is 119. That's the oldest. So Ethel is 113. French one's still alive yeah no no she died right so that's the finish line no so like we got we got to keep Ethel alive because if they were both racing at the same time that would be because you could just take out the old one and that's an easy one you can fucking one slap to the face and she's gone yeah no no so we if you see Ethel like a like marathon runners on the 20th mile you know cheering you got this come on Give us some fish and some companionship.

48:13Fish and mates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give us some Blue Zones stuff. All the Blue Zones stuff. What is funny, though, is you've got the Brian Johnson thing. It's going to be interesting to see if he outlives an olive oil farmer in Sardinia. It'll be just some guy, you know. Smoking. Giovanni. Who's just like, this old Italian guy is going to outlive Brian Johnson. He's drinking olive oil and just smoking and having fish. He's got mates. It's probably his mates. That's what everyone says. You know what's so fascinating? Brian's a good example of this. there's certain people who sort of capture a cultural niche because he when you're thinking about longevity biohacking kind of the modern world of that you think brian johnson empathy with hitler yeah you think finn taylor yeah but the it kind of speaks to the fact that there was some subculture beneath the surface that needed a figurehead not maybe too dissimilar to hitler and whenever that person sort of comes up think look for better or worse like a tate or a dan bilzerian or something was there was obviously some story going on some subculture thing happening and then there's this person that's the tip of the spear right yeah that is like the epitome of this they're like the distillation of all of this stuff and i think brian johnson's he's emblematic yeah yeah yeah bonnie blue bonnie bonnie blue yeah the end result of sort of the modern sexual liberation stuff.

49:35Yeah. Yeah, but then I tried to watch a bit of the Andrew Tate, Bonnie Blue podcast for research because we had it on our other show. And I just thought this is like a fucking GTA cut scene. Like, neither of these people are real. Like, it's just not real. And I don't know if it's people, their followers are like, they're playing along with the not real of it. Or they're actually taking it real. It's just neither of them are real. Because you've grown up online, the lines between irony and sincerity has just become completely blurred. So it's sort of like... No one's... Very few people are earnest now on the internet, right?

50:12The sincerity is basically non-existent. Do you know the idea of kayfabe? Do you know this from professional wrestling? No. Okay, so it's just basically the... I have a mortgage, Chris, so any professional wrestling stuff I don't have. That's true. I will default if I engage with it. Basically the idea that sort of the hyper-real, like the fake-real, the sort of Trumpian... like a meta story. People just sort of buy into that and they kind of don't care. Hypernormalization, that Adam Curtis film. You've seen that? No. What's that? You'd like Adam Curtis. You'd love Adam Curtis. You should have him on.

50:45He doesn't do. I don't think I'm super familiar with him. He makes these films. These documentaries. He's a documentary maker. Where he says it all got a little bit strange. Yeah. So he makes these, he's this guy that's allowed, yeah, British guy, he's allowed into the BBC archives and he just lives there like a hobbit for years going through all these archive footage. Someone brings some food down to Adam Curtis actually. We need to check on it. He's been down there for about 15 years. And he builds these incredible films. They're all on the iPlayer. And it's all used with documentary stock footage.

51:11And then he sort of tells this story of... Thatcher thought she was unleashing British potential. She was actually unleashing something much darker. Bonnie Blow. That would be it, though. So he's like the British Ken Burns in that way. Sort of. Yeah, but it's much more like... Much more enchanting. Avant-garde. And the music's more hypnotic. It's much more kind of like... in some ways emotional a little bit psychedelic in that yeah definitely because ken burns vietnam is totemic and amazing ken burns civil war i cannot i can't i couldn't get through it either it's just the the camera on the paintings yeah i can't do it but um i think americans love that shit but i think that vietnam series might be that's as good as it gets yeah i think that might be the best phenomenal and it goes on and on and this one's an hour and a half and this one's two hours and this one's the key thing i've realized if you're a documentary maker like adam curtson ken burns you've got to make the people who are watching it feel clever and that's what ken burns and i'm curious do really well i watch it and i go like well i'm brilliant why particularly with adam curtson it's because he will always tell a story about history and politics that you haven't thought of and i guess feel really smart and someone asks you about it you're like it opens the door to like here's what's really good here's what's really going on there's a bit of that right amongst his fan base definitely but they are they make you think about things in a way that no other doctor yeah but it makes you feel like you've come up with it it makes you feel like you've like drunk the world and you can see everything and you're like and then if anyone asks you what it's about uh fucking music playing and thatcher there was a lake there was a lake where they did a deal and then that's why bin laden exists bin laden was born I'm an idiot I'm fit yeah in other news this episode is brought to you by Momentous if your sleep's not dialed taking ages to nod off you're waking up at random times and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentus' sleep packs, how did I miss both of those, are here to help.

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53:31So you can buy it completely risk-free, use it. And if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get 35 % off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com slash modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S.com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom. a checkout. I still don't know why Vietnam started and I've watched that Can Burn documentary three times. You're watching and you're like, well, I'm brilliant.

54:04Well, in many ways it starts, well, let's not get into it. We'll do Vietnam at some point. It's a quagmire. Yeah, it is. Yeah. But it was interesting you saying how no one's... It's the French's fault. It's interesting you were saying that earnestness has gone. I'd consider you quite an earnest person. I think I am. Yeah. I have a problem with ironic speech. Too much ironic speech. We don't have that problem. Yeah. I imagine. We have the opposite problem. I think it's a syndrome even that I don't mind like it's the internet show that you guys do the whole thing is meta and there's jokes on jokes but you're one of the best guests if not the best guest on the show by the way why?

54:42your reactions you came into it people laughed at how I laughed it was a weird laugh but I was trying to not interrupt too much because you're still talking and if I'm cock-horring throughout the whole thing I was like okay I'll try and be like gracious I was trying to be like gracious about like not exploding all the time you cared a lot about us getting a good show and that really helped I think really helps and I think also this world's the funniest to write jokes about yeah the kind of man really oh yeah because every guest we have on internet is to fundamentally actually is to open up a world of jokes it's not about Bonnie Blue it's about let's do things about OnlyFans and stuff like that you know we have wine culture yeah wine culture yeah but this is what i've been interested in for so long this whole world and it just opens up anything motivational anything kind of the kind of well i think part of the reason it works so well is that uh you could laugh at it all and i think that punctures the sincerity and the earnestness and the control that comes through in like clips of this and your other clips a friend of mine actually was like oh yeah i love that episode because i got those guys clips and i thought fuck off who's that guy and then i saw the show like oh fair play he seems like a really nice bloke doesn't take himself too serious and that's where the show actually for the internet is best is when we had it with m dot as well people people think they come to it thinking oh good they're going to tear this guy i hate this guy and then they see how they're laughing along and they're aware of the absurdity of what so you can humanize anybody well that's dangerous yeah and i think what's tough about bonnie was that like i knew i knew we weren't going to get the same kind of reactions from her that we got from you or MDOT.

56:24But I also thought if there's even a chance she submits to the silliness and even just engages with the fact that like all morals aside, the absurdity of what she's done, it is absurd. The numbers are hilarious. If she even submits to like laugh along with that, it would be amazing. And obviously it will get views because she's very current. But I just thought, oh, there's a chance we get her to kind of laugh at it and i don't think she could because i think she's such a she has she's done so many interviews she has these sticks and she puts up a guard and she's and she's allowed to does get yeah that's her protection phrases i mean she's got a soundboard of things she said if you if you i'm not traumatized i'm a feminist i'm the real suffragette that's her soundboard she's blessing all the time um but but yeah so it's always a it's so it's so funny for a show that That is so expensive to make.

57:18It's so stressful to make. We write it for weeks before we film it. People think it's like a podcast. We have this two-hour window with the guests. We've got to get everything we think is funny about that guest. It is a real... I felt the pressure. Me. There was no pressure on me. It's a high-stakes thing. And it all, ultimately, if it's a good episode or not, rests on whether the guest is up for it or not. Because if we've worked ages on a joke, the four of us, Paddy, Young, Vittorio, and us two, if we really care about a joke, you're in the room and sometimes the guest can trample it, doesn't get the right reaction.

57:51And it's just the timing. You tried to get me to say the word men. Oh, fuck. Yeah. The barbershop quartet. That wasn't me trying to be awkward. I was just trying to... You're probably just really confused. Yeah. I was like, because you were waiting to begin this thing and I didn't say the word men. I was like, well, it's guys, you know, it's like young dudes. And you were like... what is the opposite of all that yeah but it is that it's like this it's such a stupid show and so many well obviously it's a stupid show but to make it it's so stupid because it you know it's part not that i'd ever do it on tv because i don't think it would work but the part of the reason it wouldn't work on tv is that um it's just too high stakes yeah it's a high risk too high risk not just it's too much of a noble medium compared to well it's not just that the guests might walk out it's that really you have to get everything in one take sort of have you had anyone walk out mdot tried to and then there were so many cameras in the way that he couldn't get out but then i also think he was sort of playing along yeah he seemed like a really good sport yeah he's great i love i love him yeah i'll tell you what he charmed us yeah he really did you do because we were messaging about this did you go and do some in america no we so we we've just i would love i think you could get brian john i think we could easily get brian johnson finn as well i think finn's character is built for americans i think americans take themselves more seriously yeah and i just think there's so many people the clash will be much you know albright marcus owner of onnit founded on it with uh joe rogan right recently revealed that he's um in a like a polyamorous marriage where he's having kids with both partners kind of at the same time there's there's something there for sure there's just a standard moment two family whatsapp threads i think it's all part of one yeah i think it's all part of one that's just can't be can't be two women in it surely family unit it'd be a group one different threads like the slack channel would have a couple of different yeah different versions in the organization but anyway the earnestness thing yeah it's really cool no it's a really really good point um Do I have a problem with that?

59:59I like ironic speech when it knows what it's doing. One of the problems with it only ever being irony is that you don't ever actually get to come into contact with reality or what someone thinks or what they feel about a thing. And that's kind of fine when there's a bit of self-awareness, but it feels like a lot of the stuff on the internet, if you look at most Twitter disputes or ex-disputes, whatever, it's someone going like, I know you are, but what am I? It's this very standoffish. It's very insincere. It's very sort of cutting and sardonic and at some point i sorry to interrupt i think the problem is that with that is that you separate or i certainly do i mean it's easier if you're a comic but it's like everything i do online is comedy because it's online it's not real life i then have a family life and a personal life that is not you know i don't use instagram like a millennial you're not being ironic with your kids you're not being my kids at a pumpkin patch at halloween yeah oh so many pumpkins who gives a fuck that's not how i use it i use it to make comedy because i'm a comedian yeah uh i think that's how everyone actually treats online it's not real but then there are people who cross the streams who are like comedians that then try and make actual points or maybe they interview like trump genuinely and it's like never clear whether it's jokey or you're just platforming a guy or you know that whole world yeah you open for a trump rally well yeah it's like well what are you at this point yeah yeah the kill yeah tony opening for trump it's like well you if you're anti-Trump that's a great place to be in as a comedian but if you're pro-Trump on a pro-Trump rally then that what's the point of this you've just suddenly the comedy doesn't get injected i don't understand certainly our view of comedy well that's the i think that you separate church and state that's what i think you do but also separate them i do agree with you at the you know there's a danger with the irony and insincerity that nothing is meaningful anymore meaningful but the something is also symptomatic of that culture is i do think there's a lot of bad sincerity out there.

1:01:52There's fake sincerity. They're the other side. Well, of course, there's performative sincerity and performative irony. Or like sincerity, it's like you don't know who you are and you're just sounding sincere. There's the music, let it all work out. There's that music playing underneath it. But what you're saying is absolute bollocks. I would much rather be ironic and sarcastic if you have nothing meaningful to say in a sincere manner. But there's also, the curtain's fallen, right? In that people know that, you know, like a mum influencer, is broadcasting her private life for followers, for money, for brand deals.

1:02:25So how can you say that that's earnestness? Yeah, it's not earnestness because you have privatized your home life. And therefore, you live in a state where you can't actually live earnestly because at any point you're thinking, well, this is a moment to broadcast. Exactly. So actually, I think online will always be sarcastic and ironic and dumb. And what people need to get better at doing is realizing when people are real and when they're not. and actually take online less seriously yeah because it is but I guess it is serious well that's the thing is that you have things like Charlie Kirk and it all kind of bleeds in and Kirk was clearly doing there was moments things of what he said where I think he would say it's like more of a shtick it's rage bait and does he end up getting killed for that who knows like do you know what I mean it's at what point would he separate his clips from him as a person it all seems quite muddled yeah definitely it's really it's something I think about a lot and you're right somebody that is thinks they're being earnest and is just not self-aware and that is their whole sort of persona online like the performances like got inside of the person and is staring out through their eyes and they they haven't been able to separate out themselves from that anymore that's cringe yeah that makes everybody like or it's a grift or it's yeah yeah yeah or maybe they are aware or they're half aware or they've got whatever but that that is what that's like catnip to the internet right like pointing out this person who snake yeah yeah grifter shill whatever yeah uh you know we can do that in real life though yeah we've been doing it in real life you know where the word nonce comes from or is it not is it stands like not on normal courtyard exercise yeah yeah yeah yeah prison stuff so good yeah uh anyway just yeah the the earnestness ironic speech thing is i think it does dependent it would be nice to have some people brian johnson for all that you can criticize he he is quite self-aware about how insane his life is and to tweet something like i i can promise you i will die in the most ironic way that's why i'd love to have him on our show because i think actually because people would go going oh it's this fucking guy because people judge they hate him because it feels like he's telling them to live better and then people always hate that so fuck this guy and then if he could laugh at it with us people like fair play you know and I think that's kind of what the show is it's like a sense of humour test almost which is a very British thing I think it's a very British show yeah do you find the American British thing because obviously you know you grew up in Stockton, Britain and I feel Stockton is bad Stockton's very British it's very British it's the worst place I went on that tour last year what was quite interesting is when you said where you lived and you without a pause said that's the worst place I've ever been it's the worst place Stockton yeah the escape velocity that you need to get out of there is quite high and like the northeast was traumatized newcastle northumberland's gorgeous part of the world yeah so close yeah it's pass yeah it had a but you the appeal of america right would be this attitude it feels like even though you're you're british you are much more enamored with the american point of view there's no ceiling or there's kind of all there's more sincerity in america to a degree there's less self-awareness a lot of the time um the big thing for me is sort of enthusiasm or encouragement that I seem to thrive.

1:05:42Maybe it's low self-esteem. If the people around me are pretty enthused and encouraging, like, oh, I can maybe go and do that thing. Isn't that great? There's not any of that in Stockton. No, whatever the opposite is, gravity is like five times heavier in Stockton than it is anywhere else. So I just like being around it. I had this debate with Piers Morgan and he said, I love when my friends sort of, piss-taking is sort of my favorite mode of bonding. And I'm like, yeah, I get that. And that you, every British working class guy grows up with that as like the mode of bonding between you and your friend.

1:06:14Every class. Ironic. Yeah, every class. Ironic speech, lack of earnestness, sort of piss taking. But after a while, if it never comes, if you never come into contact with sincerity, it kind of feels a bit like, well, like where does the world exist? Is it all this like hyper world? It's true. But also that, you know, when we go to, when I go to America in the first day, I'm like the tipping and the service I'm like fuck off they're a bit much aren't they? Hi there I'm going to be your waiter and then you get into it and you're like this is really nice actually because it's a holiday and then I don't think I could live there because it's too much I'm cursed I'll never not be it's a sugar rush I'll never shed my Englishness and I do think I'd find it but I'm also very European I like walking around I like walking around and I like people being rude to me in shops I just don't New York might work New York's the place New York feels European the most European part of the States.

1:07:07Yeah. I've enjoyed that, but you're right. It's dose dependent for America stuff. And there's a small contingent of British and Irish people in Austin. And I think that we sort of cling on to each other like life rafts. You must need a bit of a break, right? Yeah. But there's still a little bit less, a tiny bit more. Yeah. I think mercifully a lot of the team that I work with, there's still, I mean, British guys, beautiful British boys Patriots yeah Patriot I wanted to ask you guys if you knew I found an interesting snippet of history did you look at the dancing plague of 1518 no I don't think we have not yet can I tell you about it I'm aware of it but yeah oh yeah people just couldn't stop dancing oh yeah we did talk about it yeah alright well maybe you did that no no we didn't cover it properly I'm going to do a bit on the dancing plague of 1518 we'll get back to talking in just a minute but first some things are built for summer sunburns hot girl walks your ex posting their Euro road trip, and now lemonade and salt.

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1:08:42Best of all, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration. So you can buy it and try it for as long as you want. And if you don't like it for any reason, they'll give you your money back. You don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. Entire towns in Europe literally danced themselves to death.

1:09:12Began in July in Strasbourg when a woman named Frau Trofia stepped into the street. Beautiful language. Frau Trofia. Began, stepped into the street and began dancing uncontrollably. Within a week, dozens joined her and within Within a month, the number had grown to 400 people. Many danced for days without rest, and some reportedly died from exhaustion, stroke, or heart attack. Authorities were baffled. Doctors ruled out supernatural causes, don't know how you do that, and blamed it on hot blood. Incredibly, they even hired musicians and built a stage, hoping that people would dance it out. That only made things worse.

1:09:48The cause remains a mystery. Theories range from mass hysteria, triggered by stress and famine, to ergot poisoning, but no explanation is universally accepted. I mean, there's not much to do. Isn't it always ergot? that's what AD's kind of the god of the gaps of wait that's not an EGOT that's what's an Ergot it's not winning an Emmy no we talked about no it's not not an Emmy a Grammy and Oscar and a Tony no it's the ancient Athenian it's the wheat thing when bread goes bad supposedly it's witch trials witch crazes right because moldy bread moldy bread a woman eats some moldy bread and she goes cuckoo well that's solved then and blokes just like well string her up witch yeah exactly yeah but the dances stuff is you know I guess how are you going to get your dopamine rush?

1:10:29You need that somewhere. For a month. It's pre-phone. 400 people dancing for a month. Dancing for a month. It's like the worst version of the burning man in history. Some did. Many danced for days without rest and some reportedly died from exhaustion, stroke, or heart attack. They could have just accidentally synthesized some kind of drug, couldn't they? Yeah. And then, what, for a month? That lasts for a month? They probably could just keep eating it because they're not aware of dosage. Let's see. It's pre-dosage, isn't it? And also, you're a God-fearing people, so if you get anything psychedelic, you think you're being possessed by a devil.

1:11:01But even in the, we did this in the Greeks. You remember the wine, the Dionysian cult? Yes. They'd all drink wine. It's the same thing, supposedly. Yeah, they'd eat, what's it called? Eating a goat with your bare hands, there's like a word for it. Or eating an animal, tearing an animal apart. Yeah. Yeah. That was wine culture, 2 ,000 years ago. You drink a glass of wine, and they go... Like that bloke that you had on the show. Yeah, Tom, yeah. Yeah, well, that's where it's ended up now. Now it's a ponty guy walking around London going, oh, Chardonnay. That's how the story of wine has changed. Eating goat with your bare hand to walk around looking at wine.

1:11:35And now it's beer culture. What I drink in a day? What I drink in a day? What I eat in a day. What about Darwin? You did Darwin. Yeah, one of my favourites. Scientific races. Why was your favourite is the story of Darwin on the Beagle. Fine. When we start getting into, I do think one of our best episodes is part two of that series where we look at the birth of eugenics yeah yeah basically darwin was looking at bugs and writing it in his little notebook and everyone's like brilliant uh let's rank races this is i love all of these theories that's brilliant let's measure uh black people's skulls yeah and say how low their iq is yeah phrenology physiognomy phrenology there's something so funny about the esteem of scientists when the science is completely wrong yeah that is what do you mean hilarious well the smartest people in that age were the most racist yeah so it's been sort of we have a catchphrase on the podcast which will he's a scholar and a racist yeah because in the 19th century it was scholarly to be racist and also the idea because of racial because racial science victorian polymath it will be people who have done extraordinary things in multiple fields invented like like the weather pain invented like so many different forms of science history but they also so there's a man called francis It's the most racist thing you've ever written.

1:12:48Francis Galton. Galton. Who in many ways invented the modern weather, maps, meteorology, so many things. But he was also a massive eugenicist. And he literally invented the dog whistle. That was, we found that out on the podcast. And that was one of our big solutions. So when you say dog whistle politics, when you're talking about race, but you're using words like urban and inner city, when you're actually, what you mean is black people. And that's like a way of getting out of that message. Yeah, yeah. That's why I call it a dog whistle. Because if you're tuned to it, you can hear it. You can hide messages in speech that you can get away with.

1:13:16But he invented the actual dog whistle for dogs. And what's a eugenicist? But to be fair to him, he never did dog whistles. Because he was just saying... No, he was shouting at dogs. Yeah. Well, you didn't need to dog whistle. He was writing a book saying, you know... Black people are stupid. It's not really a dog whistle. It's more calling your dog. You know that Galton had... Fenton! Fenton! It's the opposite of dog whistling. He had a patent for how you could cut a cake. so that it wouldn't go off. A circular cake. You weren't allowed to cut it like that. I don't know. He'd registered it. I read an article by Adam Mastroianni about Francis Galton.

1:13:59It's fascinating. I mean, again, birthed some pretty dangerous ideas. Scrolling a racist. Scrolling a racist. So you, circular cake, and you sort of cut a corridor out the middle of it, and you push it together. That was apparently revolutionary in the early 1900s. He's a brilliant man. Well, yeah, as opposed to cutting a wedge. And then how do you fill the wedge? It's exposed from the inside out. His, uh, his sister had some, uh, spinal problem. So he taught her as she was laying, she would be laying facing the ceiling and he would read to her. I think she would read to him and that was, she would lay on a table and that was how they would, cause he was homeschooled.

1:14:36He also said in his, whatever biography or memoir that when he started working in the doctor's office or a pharmacist's office that he decided he was just going to try every different medicine from A to Z. And he got to one that was, I think, C or D. I can't remember what it was that he took. And it caused him to shit himself so badly that he remembered it five decades later. Oh, right. And then he stopped after that. To be fair, I don't think you want to ever be able to brush off shitting yourself. Yeah. But you remember it. All of them? You don't want them to blur into one so much. Well, past the point, I think.

1:15:10Right, okay. yeah yeah into your part of the age of what 10 yeah yeah i think once you're an adult i can remember my shit myself yeah you want those to be memorable you can you hold on to them they're almost they're called memories they're formative you don't want it to be like i'm shitting myself so much i couldn't possibly yeah i don't know what i don't know what day it is i just know that i've shat myself could be could be a tuesday i remember when i didn't shit myself that's that was a memory that's very distinct because normally i'm constantly covered in shit um but that episode So there was crazy stuff, which because of the Nazis, you can't even go back over it in the same way.

1:15:45So we discovered so many things. There was like, because of the kind of moral consensus that came after World War II, saying that all of this stuff is... Racial science was debunked. This is leading to genocide. And the Holocaust kind of was the full stop on that, where it goes. People missed this 80 years that was leading up to that, that had so much funny stuff, if you view the world like we do. But there was amazing stuff where there was like disabled people campaigning for themselves to be sterilized. Sterilized out of, yeah. Saying, I cannot read, I shouldn't have kids in a misspelled sign.

1:16:25I was going to say, who wrote the sign? Well, there's an amazing photo of people and we don't know whether they're genuinely meant to disabled people holding the signs or they're people pretending. Paid actors. False flag. Yeah, yeah, crisis actors. and there was a there was a yeah they're like the sandy hook victims yeah there was a massive thing what did we find out it was like so there's a big camp there's in the 20s in america america and interestingly the america and nazi germany were like they were the two people who were really going for eugenics and and there was a eugenics um office i don't know where the race race yeah it was the race for race not like the race for life and and they were and there was a something about because in the build-up to the 30s like america like ford were basically militarizing germany like all the the nazi um industrialization reminiscation was a lot of american companies yeah and there was a there was a fucking eugenics this was when eugenics was a charity right it was like a eugenics charity in america who were writing uh or rather hitler took just copy and pasted their text and made it Nazi policy on racial science.

1:17:33But they influenced a lot of American states. And I think the most amount of forcible sterilization, involuntary sterilization, instill, as we call it, is California. Yeah. Which coincidentally is where everyone looks the fittest. Yeah, yeah. It's quite funny. It's quite funny that the Sunshine State was where the most selective breeding happened in America. There's also this amazing graph, which was, was it Victorian? About the, when they were trying to categorize stupid people. Yes. So you have, I think at the top, you have moron. Moron is the cleverest stupid person. Yes, the moron can do simple...

1:18:11This is scientific terms for what we'd now say, mental health conditions. This is what the scientific term was in the 19th century. This is where like imbecile and stuff would be in. Moron's the top. You do moron, which I think means that you can do low thinking skills, I think is that? Like low cerebral tasks? Good with your hands. Is Cretin going to be in here? I imagine. And then it's high grade imbecile, which means you can only do stuff with your hands. Then medium grade imbecile, low grade imbecile. And then at the bottom is idiot, which means you can't do anything. Yeah, you can't keep yourself alive.

1:18:39It's an idiot. That's where that word comes from. But I didn't realize that moron was ranked above idiot and imbecile was in between. I didn't really rank that. So in your bio back in the day, you'd have like proud moron. Yeah. Right, okay. Because you're the top of the bottom of the imbecile. Well, it's more the mental health labels nowadays. People are like autistic queen or whatever. In 1910, you'd say proud moron. You'd say imbecile ally or whatever. I'm imbecile adjacent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Medium grade imbecile. Oh my God. So how much was Darwin at fault for his ideas? More than we thought he was.

1:19:11It's Darwin's cousin. Darwin writes the book on the theory of natural selection. Then there's another one. But then a lot of people around him go, So yeah, this explains, they bring in Malthusian concepts of like the poor and like, what's that thing where you - I'm talking about lizards, guys. No, no, no, no, no. We get it. Yeah, we get it. We get it. Chinese people are stupid. I know what you're saying. And so it's Darwin's cousin who might actually, is Galton, maybe Galton was Darwin's cousin. I can't remember. Anyway, they take the work and apply it to things like, you know, the empire, slavery, all these things are, they're trying to sort of retroactively justify things like colonization and slavery.

1:19:48imperialism. Yeah, it makes sense to them through that lens that these people are stupid because we've conquered them. Yeah. And we have to paternalistically nurture them to our level. I mean, Hitler is a very Darwin view of the world. Yeah, the end point. Natural selection, power of the will. Hitler's the bonnie blue of scientific racism. Taking it as far as it can go. I'm fine, yeah. As far as it can go. The numbers. And I mean that for both. The numbers. But like, you know, Hitler takes scientific racism to the end point and that's why everyone goes well we're not even touching this stuff phrenology is debunked all this stuff is you know is not science but we're bringing phrenology back aren't we yeah we are just because it's very funny to call ourselves have you done it in the studio we're going to start a thing where all guests are going to get callipers out and we're going to have like a top gear leaderboard and is it bigger head is better no thicker thicker thicker head is better bigger head stupider yeah mentally thick smaller head better yeah it's a it's a complicated science yeah I know you wouldn't get it you're not you're not wearing a suit you're not qualified it's true I'm an amateur my head's too big we should do branded merch calipers we should do branded calipers yeah that's a good idea yeah do you think we're about to go into a world with embryo selection for IDF well you know yeah it's not a million miles away from sort of yeah gene therapy and all that stuff and is that that's legal in the u.s you can embryo selection is embryo editing is not right so you can do editing means you can just be like yeah yeah get rid of that oh that's good that's nice because what about like the brachy gene and all that those genes that cause cancer and it's a woman's thing you wouldn't know what it is but um some women have this gene mutation called a brachy which means that they're very likely to get ovarian or breast cancer aged 40 and that's where it turns out most ovarian cancers from this one gene mutation that you can screen for supposedly you can screen for it in a in a unborn baby or an embryo i don't know that's legal or not i don't know i'm pretty sure you can screen for everything now i mean there's companies in america that will allow you to do apologetic risk score you do a little sample and then they'll say well here's a dashboard 10 fertilized eggs yeah and if you embryo one like wow intelligence is high but immune system's quite low and autism risk is quite high and then you go look at the second one like well the intelligence is back a little bit so you have like a sort of mixing board but you can't you can't top trumps but you can only choose it's like having yeah it is like top trumps or FIFA when you get the player stats yeah but you can choose you've got your there's your harvest build a five side team you know or you go and go big hand that's good literally like that and you can do that but so I think what's it's kind of weird about that is everybody has some sort of understanding that traits are heritable, right?

1:22:47That's how dog breeding has occurred. That's why people have got the same eye color as their parents, et cetera. So there's some amount of heritability, but because eugenics was such bad branding for anything that was to do with behavioral genetics, that it's like everyone's got this like, oh, fucking hell. Squeamishness. Yeah, it's real ick, but this is going to bring it back into front and center because as soon as parents realize that they can select their kids. Don't have to have ugly kids. Brilliant. they're going to have they're more likely to go to Ivy League they're more likely to do whatever but what's going to be interesting is if everyone is selected it's going to be like how middle class families decorate their living room it's going to be a sign of taste it's going to be like oh that's embarrassing you chose your kid to be like that that was very like trendy for the time but now it's like it's very ghost it's dated now it's new money that kid that's a new money it's new jeans that's new jeans we're old jeans as the only parent here the whole thing about parenthood is that you don't choose the card you're dealt and you raise the kid no matter what you play the ball where it lies you can only play the team in front of you you're a parent to your kid that's why you should never really take advice from any other parent because they're dealing with another kid and so when you what if you're cutting out like really severe just like the far end of it what about cutting out severe disorders and so yeah you can do if i guess i guess we just wear that line is yeah this is exactly that's where the debate will be it's the exact question which is okay we say that selecting against Huntington's or like negative traits is good.

1:24:15But when it's just a single spectrum, the argument is it's just a single spectrum all the way up to, well, a more robust immune system means that they're going to survive. So, and then, well, you know, intelligence is correlated with not going to jail, isn't correlated with life satisfaction. All that, yeah, all that stuff. I mean, you have to have, surely it's a suffering line where all the rest, that's not predetermined. You can't predetermine whether someone's going to go to jail. That's, that's, that's, that's, but you can predict it. You can predict it at least a negatively correlated with likelihood of going to jail yeah but again that's like but then there's those things if you've got high iq you're being a safer um normally you're probably in a safer home environment yeah exactly i haven't i haven't done the data no but what i mean is that i guess part of the thing about being a parent is that you just have to you're dealing with the kid you get and mentally it's a much easier journey if you are like well this is the kid i've got this is the kid as opposed to this is the kid I chose this is the kid that I would like to be rather than going well I actually I should have picked differently because the whole time the choice paralysis you have when you're picking what your kid's going to be Netflix is just too many things because you're like oh fuck no I shouldn't have picked that he's so fucking annoying this is 80s China yeah because also you probably love your kid less in many ways because the you feel like you're missold the unrequitedness of the love for your child is this is no matter what this is destiny this is what it's meant to happen but if you're like I fucked up I knew I should have chosen M.R.O.

1:25:403 yeah yeah exactly yeah and that's why you shout at them when you fall out when they're teenagers yeah the whole point is you watch them grow and you don't have really much control over them so if you go into it thinking you have control mentally that is the worst place to be in when you have children is thinking you have control over it you don't have any control you're just trying to keep them alive yeah and make sure that they are happy that's the mental that's my advice surrender control yeah because you're not in control of anything yeah have you found that hard no that's great it's liberating hands off the wheel but you tried to take not hands off the wheel I'm driving the car I just they're just shitty everywhere naked you know just hands off whatever man whatever stop getting weed yeah but you know you're trying to drive a career forward and get the show and all of the prep and all the rest of the things that you do ring fencing that, partitioning that off and saying, oh, but I'll just, you know, hope for the best with finding the line, finding the line between control and not control.

1:26:45It's like at this stage, you know, they're four and two. They're like, if I'm around a lot, that's good, you know, because the alternative is to go, well, well, my career, you know, but your career is a never ending thing. And I don't think you look back on your life thinking, I wish I'd worked more, you know. An interesting situation that people are in now, at least some people that have the choice of whether they want to work or not work, that we went very quickly from a world where the dad was five days a week up at five in the morning and then back on an evening trying to, you know, single family income, single person income type thing to now people have started to put that philosophy forward as themselves.

1:27:27It's self-generated. It's like, well, I'm going to push myself into my career because I want to validation, et cetera, etc so well you got the the someone who is pretty validating there playing next to you but i also think i mean i get a lot of these reels about like the science behind dads but there is there's a there's a woman you might have had her on doctor i think she's a doctor sounds like one who talks says that a child's mental health is linked to how available and present their dad is maybe it's daughter maybe it's girls maybe daughter mental health okay um and i just think just being around is like as a dad, you know, you can be hopeless, but if you're around, you're doing something.

1:28:07Do you feel like a bit of a spare part for the first few years? No, no, no. You're like a cheerleader from the side? The first six months, you are a spare part, but then, you know, you need to prop up the wife. You're there as the pit crew. Kind of. But also, I think that's something men tell themselves to be like, oh, I'm not really, it's not really my thing. It's a defense, it's a comfort blanket, be like, I don't know what I'm doing. There's a lot you can do. I'm not even needed here. There's a lot you can do. Everything that isn't the kid. You can bottle feed the kid. I saw a video. No, I couldn't possibly.

1:28:40I saw a video of a guy on a plane who must have been, maybe the wife wasn't there. He was traveling with just relative like newborn-y type kid and tried to bottle feed, didn't want to. Put a photo of the wife over his face and stuck the bottle through a hole in the t-shirt fine yeah i mean they're idiots you can check them outwitted them yeah then he starts doing it without the kid and it's like he enjoyed it too much that's a dog

1:29:12madness um but yeah i mean i get i sort of the whole gene therapy thing i think you're kind of ruining the surprise of parenthood and i guess you know suffering is a legitimate debate as to how much suffering you can edit out of someone but yeah i just think it's it's a slippery slope because you will just start having these expectations as your kid that are like more foundational than your own neuroses in that you have bought and ordered your own child yeah so you're gonna go mad yeah you knew you should have got the new fucking subaru in gray instead of in when we were potty training my daughter because we have a dog and the dog shits outside there was about six months my daughter would go outside to have a shit and you're like learned from the dog Because she learned from the dog.

1:29:56And then you're like, well, how do I explain to a three-year-old that you're not a dog and the toilet is here? If I had bought a genius, I would be so livid. But because of the fact that she's at least not pooing on the floor, I'm proud of her. I'm proud of her, you know? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we'll see the new world of, I think that I should be present. like that's a you know revolutionary if you were to look back 50 years yeah it's like i'll meet you when you're 18 yeah kind of handshake and a glass of scotch yeah see you later the churchill thing just going back to that i remember i read a letter from him he said to his father how proud he was to finally got into this regiment right and his dad responds with just the most fucking hurting and it's this whole thing like you have cost me this much money you have failed wanton and disrespect and all the rest of it and then at the end of it he signs off and he says your mother sends her love yeah fucking rude at least yeah so being around just being there I think that does something yeah yeah even if you're getting shouted out all the time yeah just being around gentlemen what are you doing next what can people expect over the next few well I don't know when this is coming out when this is going out probably three weeks something like that okay so we'll be in the middle of our tour yeah which is sold out so people can't get tickets for it anyway yeah there's stuff in the pipeline there's lots of stuff Finverse the internet there's stuff that there's Finverse History twice a week yeah we're one of we're I checked this morning we're like the 26th patron in the world yeah so join the patron join the patron join the army what do you get for being in the Patreon?

1:31:44you get a bonus episode every week you get early access to the week's episodes ad-free listening and it's all the same right it's Finn versus history and the yeah so there's several tiers so you can pay for both shows you can pay for just one right I think the main thing people do the Patreon is especially with the history podcast everyone wants the episodes immediately because if you listen to one part people don't like being forced to wait for the next part so the main thing you want to binge is that you can get all ten about the Prime Minister if it's like two weeks you can get four immediately they're like Labradors they just don't stop eating yeah just eat ten hours in a day yeah Yeah, and they're thrown up everywhere, bloated.

1:32:19It's awesome. I really, I think that what you guys are doing is super cool. Oh, thanks, man. I really look forward to seeing you. No, my pleasure. My pleasure. Until next time, boys. Thanks, Chris. Cheers. When you walk into a Burlington, you're walking into amazing prices and great gifts. That's main character energy. Because at Burlington, the holiday savings aren't the only things turning heads. Discover quality finds and perfect presents for everyone on your list, even those who are hard to shop for. toys and jewelry to new beauty brands and styles, these gifts go seamlessly from our stores to under your tree.

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