21 Harsh Truths About Why You’re Still Lost - Mark Manson - #1096

30:47And that's a bit of a nightmare to you. Not that bothered about smells. You can have your entire life's calories go through one machine. He uses the example that he doesn't mind noise when he goes to sleep. He's a fan of trains and he likes beer. so he lived in a house that was next to a pub with a garden that backs onto a railway line because he quite likes the trains they're actually actively sort of enjoyable for him to see going by he doesn't mind that much about the noise from them or from the beer garden and he's made good friends with the landlord of the pub and it means that he can order a beer by leaning over his fence and asking for it and he can sort of enjoy the atmosphere of the pub from the comfort of his own home.

31:32What he's done is he's been able to get a house. I think it's his cottage that's somewhere in the British countryside. He's been able to get that at a price that most other people would still think was too much, despite the fact that it's discounted because there are certain inconveniences and challenges that he is particularly well equipped to put up with that other people would struggle with. And the same thing is true when it comes to choosing a Can we dig into this a little bit? Air Fryer girlfriend? Well, I'll let you know how that goes over with my wife. I'm going to go home after this. Darling, darling.

32:06You're my air fryer. You're my air fryer wife. You're my air fryer wife. I can cook everything in you. Well, I mean, she is Brazilian, so they're highly fertile. Yes. And especially, you come more from this optimization world than I do. but the person like the personalization of optimization like this is the thing that always bugged me about a lot of the optimization content out there because it's everybody's so different in terms of what they want and who they are and like what they're predisposed to and i think the same way like some people are more predisposed to certain athletic activities or certain physical activities than others, we're all predisposed to like certain psychological environments and certain types of relationships than other people.

32:56And, and, and I just, it drives me crazy that there's like no accounting for that often. Like there's no discussion of how it's, yeah, living next to a train track where you can order a beer over a fence is like, that might actually be optimal for one person's life. Whereas you would never see that like broadcasts on, you know, health and fitness. This is the optimal way that you should get your house. Look at all of the advantages. Well, we know that those advantages are so niche that it only addresses a very small cohort of people. Right. But the assumption here is all optimization advice is optimizing for the wrong.

33:37Exactly. You know that study about they tried to engineer fighter pilot seats inside of US fighter jets, a new US fighter jet. They took all of the fighter pilots and averaged their body dimensions so that they could design the seat that was the average of them all. And it fitted zero pilot. There's no such thing as average. There is no such thing. The average person literally doesn't exist. They're an aggregate of everything. But I mean, let's say, for instance, that you had a distribution of people on a graph that looked like a pair of boobs. So you have sort of two there. Where's the average?

34:10It's actually at a point where maybe nobody is. You know? This is the problem with doing it. And I understand that sweeping generalizations about advice is something that I've always steered away from when I can. And it's been massively to the detriment of my credibility. I've done other things that are massively to the detriment of my credibility as well. but um one of the reasons is people love certainty they love absolutes they love certainty and this goes back to the fact that uncertainty is very difficult to deal with if i listen to someone who says well we know we know that this is the game we know what israel is doing we know how much protein you should have per day we know what the best sleep formula is yeah well fucking hell like i don't need to worry anymore all the chaos of the world all of the different directions that things could have gone in.

35:02I don't need to, I don't need to wrangle with that. And it's way less sexy to say, well, it's directionally correct that it seems to be the case that in most circumstances, I would estimate that it is good to, it's way less sexy, but it's much more accurate for people. If you're the sort of person, and this is why for the whole podcast, and I see this all the time, when people get pissy about some piece of advice that's been put forward, especially when it's been caveated. Well, the outlier, actually, I think you'll find it's like, hey, dude, if this is not for you, that's fine. But your ability to discern doesn't mean what you should say is that's not for me.

35:44Huh? I wonder if it is for anybody else. Can you imagine if that piece of advice is for somebody else? And if so, then shut the fuck up. This piece of content that isn't for you found you or this piece of advice that isn't for you found you, your first port of call should be, wow, I wonder if that actually exists for anybody. Fuck, I actually can imagine somebody that it would be good for that's in my life or how varied are we as humans that that's the case? Isn't that interesting? The flip side of that, there's a flip side version of that, that I see a lot that I, that actually concerns me even more, which is that people will hear a piece of a general general piece of advice.

36:26They will try it on themselves. It won't work. And instead of coming to the conclusion of like, oh, there's just something different about me and I need to adjust accordingly, they assume that there's something wrong. With the advice? No, with them. Oh, okay. They're like, the advice is the gold standard, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It came from, you know, Mr. Guru or Mr. Super PhD. But it's not working for them. So therefore, they must be doing something wrong. They must be, something's wrong with them. And so they need to like go find an even more detailed protocol and implement it even more strictly.

37:00And you see them kind of get into this like OCD spiral. Over-optimization spiral. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The pain of trying to be perfect will kill you more quickly than your imperfections will. The one thing that I remind my listeners on my show of all the time is that like the best, most credible piece of advice in psychology, like if you look at all the literature in terms of every intervention imaginable and like what its hit rate is, it's like maybe 50%. You know, like the very best forms of therapy with a really good therapist, it's like maybe cracks over 50%. So it's none of this stuff is going to work for everybody all the time.

37:45And in fact, you should expect that roughly half of it is not going to work for you at best, at best. And so it is your responsibility to try everything, track what's working, what's not, be honest with yourself about what's working, what's not, and then like move forward accordingly. Before we continue, most people in their 30s are still training hard. Their protein is dialed in. They sleep better than they did in their 20s. Discipline is not the issue, but recovery feels somewhat different. Strength gains take a little longer. The margin for error starts to shrink. And that is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline.

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39:27You don't build psychological resilience by feeling good all the time. You build psychological resilience by getting better at feeling bad. that is definitely a that was definitely posted in 2025 or 2026 because that would that would that's the sort of thing that you could not post between like 2016 and 2022 uh it would have gotten me canceled um all sorts of proclamations about white male privilege or whatnot um I mean it's it's it's difficult because there are genuine victims in the world and there are people who have genuinely suffered lots of shit that is not fair and not their fault and those people deserve sympathy but they don't deserve they don't necessarily deserve anything more than that and

40:35i think we're kind of coming out of this period but we went through a very intense period where there was a lot of entitlement associated with like i i think in one of my books i called it the victimhood olympics right it's like and you see this now with like a lot of like super lefty groups. You know, it's, it's like, well, I am a abused indigenous person of color who grew up with three legs. And, and then it's like the next person is like, well, as a person who grew up with one leg and is a abused transsexual indigenous person, like my voice actually carries more weight than yours. And I've got gluten intolerance.

41:12Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's like, at a certain point, it's like, who fucking cares? Like, what are you going to do? Correct. Right? Like what, you can't, you can't like just sit around measuring your pain every day as if it's like, you know, it earns you merit badges. I've had to pull this up. This is one of the best takes. So Alex Homozi got in trouble for saying this, the same thing that nobody owes you patience just because you've had a rough day or a hard upbringing. And he wrote a response. This is fucking money by him. If you had disadvantages, I agree with you. You are right. It's harder to be successful if X happened to you.

41:52Replace X with gender, race, birth deformity, different language, different country, abuse, etc. The main point of the longer conversation is that despite the disadvantage, you only have one choice. What are you going to do about it? Number one, take action anyway and become proof to other people like you, your people, also born into this abused tragedy that you too can overcome it and they can as well. Number two, blame and complain. And to be clear, do whatever you want. I support your choice, but only one of those decisions will make you better. And I wish I could say this without getting attacked, but you know who wins by you not being successful, whoever and whatever you blame.

42:36Fuck that and fuck them. You can lead a rebellion of one and blame the one thing you can control, which is you. In your mind, redefine the word blame as give power to. And when you do that, there's only one person you're going to want to give more power to, and that's you. For everyone who had shitty circumstances, I'm on your side, your long-term side the side that wants you to win so do it anyway with all the disadvantages and still tell them to shove it and win I want to be clear again if you had tough shit happen to you it sucks and that's not your fault but now what? where do we go? isn't it crazy how many caveats and like you know throat clearing land acknowledgements yeah yes dude I got in I continue I continue to fucking get in trouble by saying things that to some people doesn't land right and to other people becomes a mantra that they live by.

43:33And yeah, I understand because creating any goal to aim for and degree of obligation can make people who feel like that's out of reach for a reason that isn't their fault feel like they are being made to pay twice for something that hurt them. And that fucking blows. But it also makes communication really clunky, and I hate it. It's so over and over. And it's such a shallow form of empathy as well to assume that the only way that you can be caring is if you think about the middle 90 % minus the two fives on the end that are obviously unrealistic for you to have thought about. that you have to include all of these people as opposed to, hey, I'm speaking to a very specific cohort of people now.

44:32Yeah. I would argue the empathy is actually completely disingenuous because it's, right? Like if I'm empathizing with somebody strictly because of their, the color of their skin and their gender and their sexual orientation, like that's exactly what they don't want to be empathized for. So it's backfiring. Like the whole strategy is backfiring in the first place. We were talking before I did my show in Australia and to the people who came to the Sydney show, you will remember that James came out swinging when he did his warmup set before me and he made a comment partway through, which was, I hate to say it, but I'm racist.

45:13And I'm racist against a very unique group of people and it's Italians. He says, I know that I'm racist against Italians. because I love the food, but I still don't like the people. And there was a lady halfway through the show who piped up and said, I was made to basically do the apology for James. She piped up and said, I really think that you need to be more careful about some of the sort of judgments that are being made in the show. I'd make a joke and James had made a joke. And she's like, you know, this is sort of can make people uncomfortable and it's exclusionary and all the rest of it.

45:48It was one of those moments where I'm like, fuck, there's like 2 ,499 other people in here looking at me to see if I can handle this situation. And I realized that true equality is when you have to put up with the same level of shit that everybody else does. If you want to be properly, properly included, the most inclusive society, it's to not be treated with kid gloves. If you told me that somebody was treating me differently because they thought that I couldn't handle it or something. That is a kind of bigotry and patronizing cotton wool gentleness that would make me feel so fucking icky. Be like, oh my God, you are not my friend.

46:33You are not my friend. Yet, does that mean that you push the person who's only just started training at the same level that you push the person that's a professional athlete? Obviously not. But when it comes to including people in discourse, I think that, But yeah, true equality is when you put up with the same level of shit that everybody else does. That's funny in Australia, man. I'm just remembering, I did a show a couple of years ago in Brisbane and I had this bit in the show, I was talking about Freud. You know, do they do this in your shows out there? So Australia has this thing where they have like the sign language person on stage.

47:11No. Signing for everything. Did they have one for you? Yeah. Okay. Like all of my - Do you have many deaf fans in Australia? Brisbane? I don't know. I never hear from them.

47:24Fuck me. You walked right in. Yeah. So every show, yeah, I had a, there was a guy on stage on the corner of the stage, like doing all the science and everything. Cool. So I implemented a segment of the show when I had a whole section about Freud and some of Freud's like wackier theories. and I had a segment where I talked about how Freud had an obsession with dicks, moms, moms with dicks, fucking moms with dicks. And I just like went on and on. And then like, I would like make the person sign everything. What does Freud's obsession with fucking moms with dicks in sign language look like? I don't know, but it was just so funny to like watch the signer just get so uncomfortable.

48:07Wonderful. Yeah, it was a great crowd moment. But there was one there was one time in Brisbane where in the Q &A afterward, a woman got up and basically started chastising me for transphobia and lecturing me about how I had like a moral responsibility. And as of the mums with dicks thing. Yeah. OK. Right. Because I have a platform and all this stuff. And it was interesting because the crowd just instantly started booing her. And, um, but it was funny cause like I, I, I tried to use it as kind of a teaching moment and I said something very similar to you, which is like, look, if you, you're, it's not a quality if we can't laugh about it.

48:49Right. Like if, if as long as something is so like, it can't even be spoken of because it is needs to be protected. it's so fragile and it needs to be protected to like such an extreme extent um like that's that's not equality that's actually kind of the opposite of equality um in a lot of ways i don't know if if i convinced anybody of anything but uh it was it was a fun moment but suddenly the deaf people got convinced yeah jimmy car's got a line where he says telling me that there is a problem too serious to joke about is like saying there's a disease too bad to create medicine for. Yeah. You go like, this is the salve that helps people to see this problem with less seriousness.

49:37It's not being callous. It's not being flippant with it, but it's helping them. If anybody has ever had a problem that's felt really important to them, have they wanted to take it more seriously? Or would they like to be able to find a way to actually inject some, yeah, like that is, isn't that like, isn't that funny? Humor, it's therapeutic. it's funny actually the that the jimmy carr quote it reminds me so my my grandmother she died of a brain tumor when i was probably 14 15 and it was it was one of these like awful cancers like she died very slowly oh slow slow yeah over the course of like you know probably eight or 12 months and we just watched her deteriorate like week after week after week and it was awful like we we would spend every weekend with her and we'd go see her.

50:29And my grandmother had a great sense of humor. And so she started cracking jokes about, she like named her tumor and she was like cracking jokes about her tumor all the time. And when it got really bad, like it, it started to get awkward, you know? So she's like, she can't walk anymore. She's like hurt. She's having memory problems, but she's still cracking jokes about the fucking tumor. And then at a certain point, like my aunt got really upset and she was like you know she was like maureen like you can't joke about this like this is this is really upset like it's upsetting and i remember my grandmother said she was like there's nothing so serious in this life that you can't laugh about it and um and she was like it's my tumor i'm gonna i'm gonna laugh at it if i want she's gonna make any joke i want about it but yeah that always stuck with me and it's something that like i believe very deeply as Yeah, it's a strange one that there was a recent bit of research in the New Statesman that just came out about the attitudes of young women, specifically in Britain.

51:28And white women are significantly more likely than women of color to say that the country is racist. So, dude, that's like, how? Because there is this. I mean, I know how, but it's just like, how did we get here? I know. It goes back to the desire to be seen as empathetic. If you can show yourself as some kind of savior, some sort of white knight that's going to steam in. But again, in that is so much, it's such a patronizing perspective to say, oh, you poor people of color. You poor deaf people. You're not able to, you're so unresilient that you can't deal with this yourself. Allow me, allow me to come in and tell these people exactly what you want you got hang on a second notice that the person that piped up about the joke james made about italians wasn't italian of course of course she wasn't i mean i don't know chris i think you're kind of minimizing the epidemic of transphobic deaf people in australia it is with a good tolerance it is a real problem and you're not taking it seriously i'm not i'm not i'm not check your privilege that is true that is true I am British, which I do think means that I've kind of got, what do you say?

52:47I've got ancestral empire privilege, but modern day embarrassment disadvantage. You know, I've just, if you had invested in the UK, if the UK was a stock, it was like fucking Herbalife or something. This thing's just absolutely nosedived. You had to have seen that recent survey where they surveyed British people of economically what if the UK was a state in the US where they would be. And the Brits said they'd be like number six or number seven. And it's like, actually, it's 51st. Although we're like fifth in America in number one in America in heart health, number one in America in obesity, number one in America in all of the health stats.

53:33That's a low bar. That's true. Across all of America, there's not even one state. You know, there's like those. When it comes to health, like, yeah, we're completely fucked over here. All right, next one. A quick aside, most people think that they're dehydrated because they don't drink enough water. Turns out water alone isn't just the problem. It's also what's missing from it, which is why for the last five years, I've started every single morning with a cold glass of Element in water. Element is an electrolyte drink with a science-backed ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, just the stuff that your body actually needs to function.

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54:37Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Elements' most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. If you have to explain to somebody why you deserve respect, then you're already in the wrong relationship, full stop. People don't realize that you shouldn't have to ask someone to prioritize you. You shouldn't have to beg them to be proud of you. If their efforts have to be requested, then it's not really effort. It's like compliance, and compliance fades the second you stop asking.

55:12So really, it's just a performance. They're just doing it to placate you and keep you satisfied and stop you from complaining. The right person will treat you well because that's who they are. They just fundamentally care about you regardless of how other things are going. not because you gave them a checklist or a deadline, but because you are just somebody that they value. So if you feel like you have to train someone to just be a decent partner for you, they've already kind of told you everything you need to know. You probably just don't want to hear it. I'm going to amend that because that works great.

55:50You know, that's probably one of my reels on Instagram or something. But I'm going to amend that. I'm going to say that that is true in the macro, not necessarily true in the micro. Let me explain this. So if somebody is egregiously disrespectful, consistently, like you are constantly fighting for them to even acknowledge you, pay attention to you, care about you, like do anything, that in and of itself is unfixable to a certain degree. because like if there are certain just base layer requirements for a healthy relationship, um, that the fact you have to request them means that it's, they are non-transactional by nature.

56:41So as soon as you request them, it becomes a transaction. And so you, you kind of invalidate whatever is given. So if it is, if it is on a severity of scale that like, there's just nothing present at all. The amendment, the nuance that I will add to that is that there are often cases within a relationship that is already well-established on trust where somebody is just kind of dropping the ball and is not showing up in the way that even they would intend to show up, not acknowledging certain things, maybe has a blind spot around something, maybe is going through something right you know uh has some difficulties going on in their lives so it's one of those cases where it's like it's i think it is margin like on the margins it is not only normal but it's healthy to ask like say like hey i'm kind of feeling unacknowledged or unappreciated in our relationship right now like can you can we work on this can you help me out here.

57:48It'd be nice if you did this or did that, or, you know, showed up to my birthday party or whatever. Um, but if it is on such a macro scale that like you are asking for it to exist in the first place, then it's, there's nothing there. Um, and I think, I think the reason this resonated, I think the reason this resonated so much is because there's so many people out there who are, they confuse that, that macro problem with the micro problem. Correct. Right. So they're, they're in a relationship with somebody who's like gives zero shits, is not showing up for anything, is not acknowledging anything.

58:26And in their head, it's actually just a marginal issue of like, Hey, it'd be nice if you like answered my phone sometimes. Yeah. Like, um, so anyway, that's, that's some nuance to apply to that. There's a difference between telling somebody that they should think of you and explaining what your love language is. Exactly. Right? There's a difference between asking somebody to show up and explaining how you would like them to show up. Correct. This person is applying effort. They're being thoughtful. They're considering me. They're just maybe doing it in a different sort of a way than would maybe be optimal.

59:07Yeah. versus this person just isn't considering me or the imbalance of consideration is so great. And also you said when there's been a, an established level of trust that you kind of know what this relationship has in store typically. Right. What if it's never shown up? What if this has never actually been there? And the only reason it is there is if you kind of constantly, you're constantly refueling this gas tank with requests and beratement and compulsion. I'm going to keep dragging you to do this thing, to think about me, to reply in a timely manner. I'm going to keep on reminding you that this is something that's important, full stop.

59:52And after a while, if you've done it a lot, either in the macro or to be honest, enough micros makes a macro in any case, you just have to admit to yourself, you go, this is just incompatibility. If you have to make so many bids and this person after a while is just going to feel like, well, who are you in a relationship with? Because I'm showing up as me. You have to assume that people for the most part are showing up as themselves. And the goal should be to find somebody that you need to instruct and train as little as possible. Because some people have a big tank of growth, Some people have a small tank of growth.

1:00:30But regardless of how big or small the tank is, if you start really close to the destination, you don't need to drive as far. And then let's say that someone's able to grow a lot, then you can both grow together and become better than you ever were before. But if almost all of your time, you want to go to bed at two in the morning because you love going out partying and your missus wants to go to bed at 9 p.m. because she likes an early night. In order for that relationship to work, both people are going to have to compromise on the thing that they want. Now, maybe that would expose you to some really important routines that might make your health better.

1:01:02And maybe that would expose her to some really exciting nights that she wouldn't have had otherwise, and it'll be really enjoyable. But also, maybe you might be better off with someone that you can party with until two in the morning and not have to compromise. And she would be better off with someone that wants to watch Peaky Blinders at 8 p.m. and then fall asleep. And that is kind of what you're looking for overall. How is this kind of compatibility and are our incompatibilities complementary as opposed to competitive, friction inducing. I think there's a component of intention here as well, where there is, there's a compatibility dimension to it, right?

1:01:41Where it's like, you're just two completely different people and you're not well suited for each other. And then there's, and I think really what that post was like, I think what it was kind of poking at is that sometimes you just have a partner who like is not prioritizing the relationship. And so if you go to them and you're like, hey, I need to be acknowledged. I need to feel special. I need like, it'd be nice if you cared more. The issue isn't that they're not returning your calls, that they're not, you know, showing up for your after work thing or whatever. The issue is that they don't care.

1:02:18It's not a priority for them. And you can't change somebody's priorities. And I would say too, there's like, it's, there's a certain amount of like, but if there is, if there is kind of a bedrock of trust, if there is kind of an overall compatibility, there is still this like maintenance process that happens over the years. um like a simple example from my life i'm i'm like a hopeless workaholic and i go through these cycles where boom and bust yes i kind of get like ramped up and my wife is super patient and supportive um but i'd say every three or four years like we hit a breaking point where she's like all right dude you've got to take a sunday off or like we have to go on a vacation i want feel ignored.

1:03:10I feel like I never see you anymore. I feel like you're working all the time. You're always tired. You come home. You don't want to talk because you've been shooting all day, like all this stuff. And, um, and she's a hundred percent right. And so I'm like, oh yeah, I should like back off because I'm like, but it's, she's also not just doing it for herself. She's doing it because it it's like, it's for my sake. She, she's like an external conscience. You she's augmenting your life as opposed to working against it. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's such a good point that if you're not being prioritized, Stan Tatkin's got this wonderful audio bug and he refuses to come on the podcast, which is very sad to me, but, um, he's got still got the best relationship book that I've ever consumed.

1:03:52And it's only available on audio. Uh, and it's called your brain on love Stan Tatkin. Fucking brilliant. In it, he says that all the relationship is, is a set of agreements, typically a set of agreements about how you'll behave. So it's the first agreement that every relationship needs to have is the relationship comes first before everything else. And I think if you are in a relationship, especially after a while, where that agreement is met by one party, but not by the other, you just need to accept that this is going to be a high friction environment, specifically for the person who is more invested, but also for the one who isn't.

1:04:31Because they're going to feel like they're being pressured and pulled along. And if you want to be in a relationship with somebody who prioritizes you at the same level that you prioritize, like leave that person to go and be with someone for whom the relationship is their fourth priority. And they may be happy or they may end up realizing that, oh fuck, I actually wanted to be in a relationship with someone. The reason that this relationship was so good for me is that I felt prioritized. And now that I no longer am because I wasn't doing it reciprocally, that fucking sucks. But yeah, if you're not being thought of, and here's the other thing, like some people aren't choosing to not do that.

1:05:10Some people simply don't have the time and their lifestyle and their current setup is not accommodating of the level of attention that you need. You go also fine, just because they're not choosing to do it of a variety of other options because they're currently in med school and this is just all they've got to do or they're training for this big thing and they can't spare any time because their ultra marathon's coming up and they need to make this happen because it's real important to them that's also a choice that's also a choice by them yeah and you can go and choose someone who chooses you as opposed to choose someone who's choosing something else i would i would add emotional capacity to that um and i think so the agreement thing is great I have not read that book.

1:05:53I should read that book. Fucking money. Just hold on that. Yeah. The reason it's so good, and I wonder whether more people are going to do this. He's obviously a super wizard expert of his area of expertise. I don't think that he wrote it. I think that he just had bullet points and he reads it like a lecture. And he speaks like this. Yeah. One of the things that we need to realize when we're talking about, it's so listenable. And what it's made me realize is listening to most audiobooks that are scripted performances of what was meant to be written and meant to be read in written form are actually horribly unlistenable compared with someone who is allowing themselves to just play with the language a little more.

1:06:43And what I would wonder is when people do audiobooks moving forward, I don't know how many authors already do this, I'm sure some do, but what if you allowed yourself to add a sentence in here or there? Authors seem to be almost prisoners of their own work when presenting it in a medium that that wasn't meant for. They go, hey, maybe add some stuff in. Allow yourself to have a pause. Is the goal to represent the book in its most sterile form? It's the exact presentation of this thing. because pretty soon some company, ChatGPT or whatever, OpenAI will just allow you to record five minutes of you speaking and then pitch perfect get you to say the book.

1:07:30So what's the reason for it? Hopefully it's so that you can add some emotion. You can ham it up, right, dramaturgically. You can add a little bit in. So I wonder whether, I don't know, I would appreciate that. As a listener of audiobooks, I would appreciate it if authors, hey, you get an extra half paragraph here that's just me this day of, you know, I really thought this is an important idea. Maybe your audio book. You can break ground. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I'm going to be out of a job in a variety of different places, even in jobs that I haven't yet started by AI currently. I want to come back to the agreement thing, because this actually ties into the friction and the sacrifice thing as well.

1:08:09It's like that agreement, because I think one thing I've seen a lot is that people think they have a partner who is in on that agreement, but it's actually not. And it's, it can actually be difficult to accurately detect if you are being prioritized or not. And I would say the, the way to accurately perceive whether you're being prioritized or whether you're actually prioritizing the person is how much, how much is each person in the relationship putting the other person first when they have nothing to gain from it? I think where people get mixed up a lot is they have somebody who's really into them, who's like love bombing them, giving them tons of attention and affection, is like excited all the time to see them, but they're also getting something out of the situation.

1:08:58And so they falsely perceive it to be like, oh, they're in on this agreement with me. And then a couple of years go by, conditions on the ground change, and suddenly that person is withdrawing. Also, how are they behaving when they're busy? Maybe that person was just on a... off period from work. They had a little bit of downtime and they're showing you attention in a way that was, or maybe they were going through a hard time and they needed you. They needed that, or maybe you were particularly available at that moment and it was easy. But when it gets hard, that person's unable to show up in the same way because it was easy in the beginning.

1:09:36Which is why the friction is the filtration. Correct. Right. Send them weird psychology articles. Yes. Telling you, send them weird psychology articles. Yeah. In other news, I've been in the gym for nearly two decades now, and it wasn't until the past few years that I had the best training run of my entire life. And a huge part of that was the RP Strength app. Actual scientists built this thing around one obsession, having a science-backed path to maximizing muscle gain. It tells you how many sets, how many reps, the amount of weight that you need to use. So all you have to do is show up and do the thing.

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1:10:43Right now, you can follow the exact same training plan that I use and get up to$50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com slash modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's rpstrength.com slash modernwisdom at modernwisdom at checkout. Beware, learning more is a smart person's favorite form of procrastination. guilty so fucking guilty um i i think i think this is you know learning is safe to a smart person it's something they know they're good at it's something it feels like progress um and it's relatively easy to convince yourself that it is going to help you do the thing when it finally comes time to do the thing.

1:11:33Um, but you and I know that's like not always the case. It's often not the case. And, and there is such a thing as, um, cramming too much information into your brain. Cause then you start, you know, creating obsession, perfectionism. Um, you actually generate anxiety where there, where there was less before. Um, so yeah, I, I mean, the learning as procrastination that i mean that's just that's like fucking bread and butter for this industry it's it's everybody struggles with that like you know we we all like to think well let me you know let me just buy a couple more books on this and then then i'll start then i'll figure it out then i'll know what to do and it's the truth is is you need both simultaneously you need to learn but you need to practice you need to do things yeah i think about this with um people who constantly go back to couples counseling you know if your relationship is held together on a bi-weekly co-journaling session to work through the difficulties of the last three days and regular therapy and cbt you know after a while like this is just you putting off the fact that this thing isn't working.

1:12:54And the same thing goes for learning more as a smart person's favorite form of procrastination. If you keep on learning, you never actually have to engage with the fact that this thing might be too difficult for you to achieve, that you might not be good enough, or that you could be good enough, but it's going to take an awful lot of work. You're insulating yourself, right? You're inoculating yourself from the pain of potentially failing publicly by postponing your stepping onto the stadium floor privately yeah i don't need to do it and uh i guess well it you bring up an interesting thing with the marriage counseling because i would say in the in the the personal development world the self-help world um you could easily replace learning with insight insight gaining more insight is can also be a smart person's way of procrastinating and you see this a lot of people who sign up for a million seminars and they need what i was thinking about they need three the Hoffman process and IFS and time coaches and I'm going to go do this like meditation retreat and ayahuasca and like you know over and over and over again and it's at a certain point you need to digest all of the insight that you've gained and the only way you digest is by like living and doing other things I'm curious like where where have you procrastinated by learning more because I mean, clearly you like learning.

1:14:15Where have I procrastinated by learning more? Well, before I started the show, just one example, I knew I wanted to do a podcast at the start of, the middle of 2017, but it took me until the February of 2018 to launch because I was working on what's the perfect name going to be. That took like two months to come up with modern. Crushing Tuesday. Crushing Tuesday. It was Brains and Brawn, actually. that was a huge part of it. Then the artwork needed to be perfect. Then I needed to listen to Tim Ferriss' How to Start a Podcast podcast and game my way to the top of the Apple charts, which actually worked, so thanks, Tim.

1:14:55And then, what's the, I'm going to start the channel, the YouTube's going to launch at the exact same time as the Apple podcast. And in some ways, I actually think that feels very justified given that that would turn into a project that was 1 ,100 episodes. And the URL that I registered at the very beginning of that is the same one that we use now. All of those things are locked in. So it's just as well that I got it right. But also you need to be able to pick your battles because you can't spend six months or many years doing that. So that's one part of it. Certainly when I was at university, I did four years of my bachelor's, which included a placement year.

1:15:40And then I did a master's. I already, while I was thinking about doing the master's at the end of my bachelor's, I couldn't remember half of my bachelor's. I couldn't remember the stuff I was learning as I was learning it. And I just assumed that the next thing, because I'm like, I don't really know what to do. And I like more business, my choice of degree. That's a perfect one. My choice of degree, like really interested in psychology. I'm really interested in philosophy, but what, I mean, I get a job as a psychologist or a philosopher that obviously those degrees are useless. I can't imagine how, what is the most applicable degree to making money?

1:16:16Well, business because business makes money. So if I do business, that means that I'll understand what I'm doing. I'm like, dude, one of the biggest regrets of my early life is doing something that I thought would be transactionally useful instead of just doing something that I was interested in. Because the thing that I was interested, it just took me a decade and a half to, I guess, like six years from leaving uni or 12 years from starting it to make my own amateur version of that by speaking to the world experts on whatever subject I wanted, most of which are about fucking psychology and philosophy.

1:16:51So I'm like, you know, had I have gone and done the degree, modern wisdom wouldn't have existed, but I wouldn't have had to wait 12 years to get started. You know, I don't know. Yeah, what about you? What stands out for you? Health was the big one for me. I, dude, I read every, I was, I was the fat guy who, who could tell you everything about like metabolic dysfunction, insulin resistance. Oh, you're an expert. Yeah. Yeah. You did used to be fat. I was, which, uh, looking at you now as a fucking slim trim 40 year old. Yeah. Believe. Um, yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, I'm in the best health of my life.

1:17:30Um, which is crazy because I spent years, I mean, I read all the blogs. I understood all the different workout protocols. I did a bunch of different workout protocols. I didn't stick to any of them. I hadn't stopped drinking. No. Oh, dude, it didn't change a fucking thing. I was pizza every day, you know, whiskey every night, going to bed at three in the morning, waking up at 11 and reading books about, you know, health, you know, yeah, yeah. This specific type of, you know, calorie is gonna cause inflammation and fuck up your gains you know as if any of it any of it mattered um and yeah eventually it just took i just had to hire a coach and he was like dude just go to the gym and i i was that obnoxious client who um would try to kind of debate him i'd be like well you know i i heard that like this rep scheme wasn't as effective as like and And he'd just look at me and just be like, dude, just go to the gym.

1:18:32Like, why are we? You're fat as fuck. Yeah, why are we talking about this? Your resilient girlfriend can outlift you. Fucking stop it. You're hungover. You ate a pizza last night. Like, just go to the gym. You're a mess. You're a mess. And I think there's sort of the over-optimization thing, I think, is really falling away. If I was to, me and my friends play a game of bear or bull pretty frequently, which is just anything, pick anything. A trend in the world, an individual, a type of fashion, a product, whatever you want. Country, a culture. What do you bullish on and what do you bearish on? What would you invest in and what would you bet against?

1:19:12And I think that over-optimization, I'm heavily, heavily against at the moment. I think people are drowning in information. They're drowning in advice. And what they want is a degree of simplicity. And more than anything, they want connection. This is a thing, talking about the relationship stuff, I kind of tracked my journey of learning about relationships. And it broke down into a few different epochs. So I guess I became interested in what was happening with mating and dating. You see these stats around sexlessness and stuff like that. And you think, oh, wow, that's interesting. I should do some research and look at Pew.

1:19:50you start to look at the the institute for family studies and you go oh my gosh isn't this strange and then you go well i wonder what's going on so you start to learn evolutionary psychology you think okay well i'm going to learn about the physics of the system the principles that are maybe guiding some of these decisions and but that's still not enough right and then you combine them and that's where you get to something akin to red pill or a more sanitized version of red pill right oh you know feminism tries to do the same thing and i'm going to look at mismatch and I'm going to work out why the current situation and ancestral programming, how they're coming together, right?

1:20:26What that's causing. That's still not actually what a relationship is. A relationship is your nervous system interacting with someone else's. Like relating has nothing to do with any of these. It's totally the midwit meme of like the idiots like, just go talk to girls. And like the Jedi is like, just go talk to girls. Exactly. It's like, she makes me feel good, bro. she makes me feel good bro I must ensure that my mate value is matched with hers with an optimal fertility window so that we can ensure that our children like no no like eat protein lift weights eat protein lift weights my intra window workout window must be pre-digested and ensure that the no no no no can I put you on the spot so I think it was maybe two years ago maybe a year no maybe two years there was a point like a couple years ago I saw you and you said that you or maybe it was one of your Q &As, you said that you were going to make finding a wife, starting a family, like a big priority.

1:21:26Do you think you're doing this with that? Like finding more insight or do you feel like you're making headway? Trying my best. One of the challenges there is that you can't do it solo, right? You can put all of the time in that you want, but inherently what you have to do is have another person to dance with. So certainly to a degree, I think I wanted to bring this up about a talking point that both you and Scott Galloway push. And I think that it's done in real good faith. But speaking as somebody that is the child of that, the progeny of that philosophy, I think contributes to it. and this is the single most important decision that you make in your life will be the person that you choose to spend it with.

1:22:17And this may be an important piece of advice for many people, maybe even most people who don't think about that, who fall backward into a relationship with someone they met when they were 24. And then before they know it, they're kind of living together, but they didn't really choose it. And they've kind of got a dog and then I guess we're engaged and fuck, we've got a kid. Do I like this person? Are we actually good for each other? and they were too unintentional about it. But on the flip side, especially as people are dating older and older now, that advice I think can create an awful lot of anxiety and it's meant to say, treat this decision with appropriate care because it's very influential.

1:22:57But I do think that, and I've said this too, right? Because I believe it. But that when that rubber meets the road, like functionally, what that ends up being is well, I mean, I really should spend an awful lot more time scrutinizing this person, which is the opposite of the other one. Just what's the good Tuesday look like? Marrying those two. And that's certainly been a challenge. There is a curse of knowledge when it comes to dating. And yeah, I've definitely decided to jump in at the deep end with that. Yeah, I could see that. It's interesting because I think it's one of those things, it's one of those talking points, the importance of like choosing your partner.

1:23:36it's i think it is objectively true in a vacuum i don't know how helpful it is when you're sitting across from somebody right like because ultimately the majority of whoever you do end up marrying the majority of that marriage is not going to be found it's going to be built over the course of the relationship and so it's it's almost like it's almost like and this is going to sound really trite but it's almost like finding a business partner like you it's not you're not looking for somebody who's had who has it figured out or has you figured out it's almost just like this is somebody i can work with like can you build with this person i can build something with this person yep we we get along well we fight well which is equally as important um they're high integrity good character.

1:24:25We have some things in common. Awesome. Challenges make us stronger, not weaker. Let's see how far we can go. And at a certain point, you just opt in, right? It's like the... Let's incorporate this business. Yeah. And it's a one-way door and it's the fact that it is a one-way door is what keeps you guys, keeps both people fully invested to keep working on it. Which is why situationships are so damaging to people because it's a halfway door. Yes. And typically, a situationship is a one-way door for one party and a revolving door for the other party. Yes, pretty much. Yeah. All right. Neediness occurs when you place a higher priority on what others think of you than what you think of yourself.

1:25:08Anytime you alter your words or behavior to fit someone else's needs rather than your own, that's needy. Anytime you lie about your interests, hobbies, or background, that's needy. Anytime you pursue a goal to impress others rather than fulfill yourself, that's needy. Whereas most people focus on what behavior is attractive or unattractive, what determines neediness and therefore attractiveness is the why behind your behavior. You can say the coolest thing or do what everyone else does, but if you do it for the wrong reason, you will come off as needy and desperate and turn people off. Pulling out the classics.

1:25:42That's an old one. The old hits. That's from Models. She's going to be 15 years old this year unreal everyone needs to go and read it dude anyone that needs a new book go and read an old book and that is now an old book it is that and mate by jeffrey miller and tucker maxx are the two-car garage of dating books for men yeah that's it and it's still relevant now it's mad that like hey a t-shirt that fits and jeans that don't have stains on them is still probably revolutionary advice for a lot of guys but yeah it's it's fucking it's money yeah um but the whole thesis of that book for the people that haven't read it neediness is unattractive yes basically you could summarize the whole book for men as in dating yeah neediness is unattractive it's really funny because uh so for people listening who don't know like i started my career as a dating coach and from like 2008 to like 2013 models came out in 2011 but i was meeting dozens and dozens of guys in person.

1:26:44I was taking them out to bars and clubs and helping them meet girls online and, you know, giving them advice on, on dates, on relationships, everything. And it was so funny because at the time it was like the whole men's dating advice space, it was super fragmented. There was almost like different classes you had to take at a college, right? There was like texting game and, and then there was like the first date that you had to master. And then there was the opener that you had to like figure out. And I, I just, I kind of wanted a unified theory of men's attractiveness. Cause I, I, what I noticed is that guys who were supremely attractive in one moment and one, like in one phase of the early relationship just seemed to not really have any problems in any other part.

1:27:32It's not, it's not like there any men who are like amazing at meeting a girl in a bar and then went on a date and just embarrassed themselves. Like it just didn't really happen. It was, you kind of either had, Winners and losers. Yeah. You either had the skills or you didn't. And there was nothing special about like a text message or, uh, you know, uh, a second date that like you couldn't figure out if you, if you had the fundamentals in place. So I was like kind of searching for this, this unified theory of, of like men's attractiveness. And what I noticed, what I noticed about all of the men that I knew who were incredibly successful with women, regardless of their circumstances in life, you know, how old they were, their appearance, money, background, anything was they just had this, they prioritize their perception of themselves over the perception of the girls like all the guys who were who were terrible with women and who struggled with women and even some of the ones who could kind of perform like a dancing monkey and like maybe get a little like a hookup here and there but they would lose the girl inevitably within a few days i noticed that everything that motivated what they said what they did how they dressed how they presented themselves it was what is she gonna like and what does she want to hear and um and so it it kind of it it became this what i realized around that time is that ultimately and i think this is true for women as well but i think it's more true of men that your attractiveness is really dictated by your comfort with yourself and how deeply you have explored your own life your own identity and your willingness to share that with the world and the result neediness was kind of that glue that held everything together or the concept of non-neediness right it's like don't do things for other people's approval don't don't change your lifestyle for other people's approval don't work out for other people's approval don't say some bullshit line in a bar for other people's approval like it's just it's all the same thing And it's all just being needy for validation and approval.

1:29:49Um, and it's, I guess I, I, I'm fortunate. It's just a very timeless concept. Like it's, it's as true today as it was. Yeah. And it probably always will be because it's, I think it's, if I was to describe my career in like a simple phrase, it would be taking very abstract intangible concepts and like concretizing them in a single phrase. or a single term in a way that like an average person on the street can understand and use them like that's entire like that's essentially my entire job and like why i'm here and why i've done anything um and i think i think the non-neediness was like my first real success at that yeah yeah yeah essentializing distilling things down someone wants the two best descriptions I've ever heard of modern wisdom.

1:30:42One was... Brains and brawn. Yeah, it was crushing a Tuesday, actually. Dispelling comforting myths was one. And another one was, it feels like spirulina for my soul in an environment filled with fast food for my amygdala. And I was like, that's lovely. It's very poetic. But yeah, like, look, essentializing something, there's this big fluffy concept. Like, what were we saying? Over-optimization, too much information. I'm feeling all... Like, I don't think that you're going to get, even with where LLMs are at the moment, I don't think you're going to be able to get the unwieldy world of human attraction distilled down to prioritize your approval of yourself over other people's approval of you.

1:31:27Don't be needy, right? That is a distillation that kind of requires a human in the loop. Yeah. Because it's about language. It's about, okay, what does this mean? not what is it if you synthesize it, right? It's not a synthetic idea. It's still quite an organic one. But yeah, when I think about the problem with the neediness thing, it also explains why so many guys felt like, I mean, the red pill movement was born out of PUA hate. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah, because that was your era, the PUA hate thing. So these are guys who had - I don't remember that for them. Found success or found failure with pickup artistry.

1:32:04And I think that both of them were quite deranged. The guys that had found failure with Pickup Artist 3 saw themselves as so broken that even the most evidence-based system to ensure that they could get laid couldn't help them. And I mean, that's pretty dispiriting. But then the guys who did find success with it also felt like they were dispirited because they said, God, look at how much I have to contort myself in order to be remotely attractive to a woman. And this is an example of none of them stopped to consider that it's just maybe the system is wrong. Like the model is incorrect. And so they just assume, no, women are incorrect, right?

1:32:40It's like, it's the problem isn't that like every woman on the planet is broken. It's the problem is, is that your model of dating and human relationships is broken. And, but you're not willing to toss that out because you're so psychologically dependent on it. Um, I, fun thing. So I name checked you. Um, I did, you know, Jubilee is surrounded. Yes. so i just shot an episode with them what for what was the thing one man versus the manosphere no fucking way you went up against the manosphere yeah who was in the room anyone that i'd know um i don't think so no big names no huge names no there's been a couple of that just did i'm fucking fascinated by this yeah a couple of them had uh people who were sort of moderately well known yeah going in but maybe you're not deep in the manosphere enough to know who was that yeah maybe who knows maybe there was a guy there that fascinating that they chose you especially somebody who came out of that world that's a unique choice that's cool it's interesting because i i told the producers i was like in the pre-production i'm proto manosphere yeah i told them i was well first of all they were concerned they're like are you ready for i'm like dude i'm the first five years of my career i spent arguing with these fucking guys so like yes i'm more than prepared um i know all the evolutionary psych and all their like silly theories um but it was interesting because I told him I was like you realize that like half these guys are probably gonna be fans of mine and they're gonna have read my book and they were actually all for it so they were like no no no this is like we kind of want this dynamic so it was really interesting it actually went really well they were like way more respectful than I expected and some of them were super smart which I've been around enough of those guys to know that like a lot of them are super well read but it it was funny because afterwards a few of them were like they said they're like i can't believe we debated you i thought i thought i was going to be debating like some women's studies professor you know from ucsf or something um but i name checked you because like one of the things that one of my talking points was like i i said it's it's the manosphere is the incorrect solution to the correct problem the correct problem is young men are struggling there's a real crisis going on and it's not talked about enough.

1:35:02And you and I both know that, but this is not what's going to work. Like this is, this is not helping. Um, and so the issue isn't, and then of course, a lot of the guys came with like, well, there's this great advice. And like Andrew Tate got me to like get my life together. I'm like, that's great. But the problem isn't the advice, you know, the seed of advice embedded within the manosphere content. It's the problem is the packaging. Like you can go find that advice anywhere and it's great that that particular packaging reached you in that moment but you need to be able to let it go um and so a couple of the guys they're like oh well what should we listen to instead anyway i i threw your name into it's fucking go dude i'm sufficiently sanitized i've got the seal of approval i appreciate that hey man i i fucking uh i think this is i've said this to mick i know jordan's in a bad way at the moment but the timing of jordan peterson to get ill and also aggressively do the God pivot was highly fucking inconvenient for where the culture was moving.

1:36:08Because I think that a lot of what you're seeing with the more cantankerous sides of the manosphere would not have had the oxygen and the fuel to be able to get big had you have still had Jordan floating around. Yeah, it's almost like he was too early. He did. He timed the market. He was right, but early. And then created the gap and then stopped supplying the demand. He created the demand and then stopped servicing the market. Yeah. And I have to give him credit too because, I mean, I've always appreciated his work. But I remember back when he first kind of got big and he was kind of going on about a lot of this stuff.

1:36:50I was like, really? Like, is this really such a, like, do we really need to be talking about, I thought we solved this, right? but it's been pretty eye-opening how just in terms of correctly identifying a cultural catastrophe years before it prescient prescient as fuck like so prescient and I go back and listen to you know golden era JBP of which you know I've got many episodes with him and I look forward to him coming back with a fully functioning brain

1:37:26it gets more true it is big one of if you want a real adventure in life tell the truth like fuck me like every single time that i think about there's a problem in my life it's because i'm not telling the truth every single time yeah like jesus christ it is it was really really good and he got embroiled in things and became in many ways like he got deranged by the level of aggression that he was being attacked by. It's this wonderful article from Ethan Strauss on Substack that people should go and read. It's called, um, criticism capture is more deranging than audience capture. He basically says that it's the criticisms, not the compliments that sway the way that we move.

1:38:06And in my experience and watching a lot of people on the internet, that becomes so true. Look at anybody who is really, really militant and, and gregarious with the way that they sort of communicate about stuff. And you're like, wow, like that's a, that's a firework of a, of a, of a world that's going on there. Are they very, um, uh, unforgiving, uncompromising in the way that they talk about things? Almost always people who have been very heavily attacked. Yeah. Rightly or wrongly, you know, Trump became more Trump because of how much people were pushing back against him. Tate became more Tate because of how much people were pushing back against him.

1:38:50Hassan Piker became more Hassan Piker because of how many people were pushing back against him. This happens to everybody. I don't see the same thing being true for people that are just regularly complimented and don't get haters. So I do think that it causes people to react in a way where they dig their heels in and they become more spiky about their beliefs. Yeah, I could see that. I also, one of the things that I've grown to appreciate over the years is that, and I really learned this being around Will Smith when I was working on his book and kind of in his orbit, some of the other like very famous people in his orbit, like there's a certain amount of skill or personality that is well suited for fame.

1:39:37And, and I think it's some people's, some people just naturally respond very poorly to a lot of attention and a lot of fame. And some people naturally respond very well and they function very well with it. And, um, and it just, and this is not a knock on him. I, he just, from, I don't know him very well. I've only met him a couple of times, but like, just as an outside observer, he just strikes me as somebody who like it, it was not, it did not do him any favors and um and it was pro it was so much and it was so like intense and it was so critical um that it's i i sympathize a lot for what he probably went through i think about people who have the skill to become famous but not the disposition to deal with the fame Yes.

1:40:28Lewis Capaldi is a phenomenal example of this. So writes his first album, billions of streams, global tour, needs to write a second one, gets put under so much pressure that he gives himself a Tourette style tick where his anxiety has pushed his body beyond a limit that it was able to cope with. Then he steps out on stage at the O2 and Glastonbury, I think, and is under so much internal pressure that he can't get the words out and he can't sing and then goes away, completely goes away and then comes back maybe a year or two years later, main stage of Glastonbury again and plays a new song which is all about his desire.

1:41:11He says, I swear to God I'll survive even if it kills me this time and just like looking healthy, super regulated. but there is a world of people who are good enough to achieve fame but just straight up don't have the disposition to be able to cope with it and that's a ruthless position to be in because the thing that you want is in your hands yes and kind of through no choice of your own there's another thing almost everybody wants to be successful but doesn't have the talent yeah and there are a very small bucket of people that get to become successful and of them there's a proportion who can become successful, but for some reason just self-destruct.

1:41:54Yeah. Detonate this thing that they've worked their entire lives to try and get. And that's like, no one's going to give them sympathy, velvet fucking prison champagne problem. It's a unique kind of pain to get to the top of the mountain and find that you threw yourself off. Well, and that throwing off, like, I mean, it can be catastrophic. I mean, if you look at what he's gone through the last few years, or if you just classic celebrity stories, right? you know Kurt Cobain or Amy Winehouse or like who did he yeah yes yes that is one way to self destruct uh but it's you know you can see it play out in a lot of different ways the other thing that like I really grew to appreciate being around Will it's like there there's a system a systemization of fame like you him and his team had like they had guardrails built around him they They had, you know, they had systems of like, here's how you deal with unruly fans in a way that like doesn't upset anybody.

1:42:55Here's how you like guarantee his privacy in certain places without like disturbing his weekend. You know, here's how you make sure he gets enough time to like rehearse and, you know, learn his scripts. Like they had protocols for all of this stuff that it was literally just protocols to maintain his ability to function. There's a middle area of fame. I haven't been exposed to, I've only ever been exposed to one or two people that have got that. Becoming friends with someone right now who basically lives with a team of SAS guys 24 hours a day to keep him on the straight and narrow so that he can continue to produce the things that he needs to produce.

1:43:32But it's a very small number of people that have that. And a very large number of people that would really benefit from that, that I know of, who are in sort of the middling level of fame, where it can disrupt your life and get in the way of your relationships and hurt you and stuff, but no one's handed them the pamphlet or the playbook to be able to deal with it. And dude, it's introducing friction back into your life, right? Because that's what happens when you achieve this insane level of success and fame is like it removes all the barriers and guardrails. Now you have all the money to do whatever you want.

1:44:04You have all the people who are going to say yes to whatever you want. And so the only way to like stay functional is to like intentionally reintroduce. limitations those limitations the the friction yeah yeah this is similar to one of yours you only envy the lives of people whose sacrifices you can't see yeah yeah um

1:44:33i mean it's it's easy it's easy to just want the benefits of something like it's it's so it's the default, right? Like it's almost childish to just want the benefits of something. It's a very naive way of seeing the world. And I think

1:44:55it's not only is it important to want the costs of something, check and make sure you want the cost of something before you actually start pursuing it. But again, it comes back to like, that's the part that makes it meaningful, right? If you just got the benefits of things, you would never appreciate those things. It's the fact that you like struggled and sacrificed and crawled through shit. Isn't that a wonderful duality? You only envy the lives of people whose sacrifices you can't see. So if you could see the cost that somebody had to pay in order to get to where they are, you probably wouldn't want the life.

1:45:37But if you were able to get to the place that they got to without the sacrifices, you wouldn't appreciate it. Bingo. It's the Elon quote you mentioned earlier, right? It's like, you wouldn't like to be me. My mind's a storm. People think they want to be me. They don't want to be me. Yeah. There's a line from James Clear that plays off this, which this is one of the best things that I read over the last few years. It doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it. If you don't want to live the lifestyle, then release yourself from the desire to crave the result, but not the process is to guarantee disappointment.

1:46:14Fucking money. It's such money because how many people want something, but George Mack's got this idea that the difference between Call of Duty and war, he says a lot of the time people think that they would love to play Call of Duty all the time, but that's not what war is. War is the smell of burnt gunpowder and your friend getting his leg blown off. Right. And you want to become a musician. You want to become a world-famous guitarist. You go, okay, what does that look like? You're going to have to learn to play guitar for a decade to no one. And then if and when you start a band, you're going to be playing also to no one with no promise of whether or not this is going to work.

1:46:52Let me cut you off there because that was my life. I remember. So, no. That's it. As an unfamously unsuccessful musician. Yes, as a failed musician, let me tell you that what you just described, that's still the most fun 5 % of it. The 95 % of it is you're sitting in a room by yourself practicing. And there's no applause, there's nobody watching, there's nobody... It's frustrating and difficult. You're playing the same song literally hundreds of times. and it's the the thing in music that they they always say is is that you're not practicing until you get it right you're practicing until it's impossible to get wrong so it is you know if it takes a hundred repetitions to get it right you need to get to a thousand to never get it wrong and it is so monotonous and tedious and just like absolutely soul-destroying unless unless you love it, unless you just genuinely can't imagine living without it.

1:47:51So, yeah. Well, that's your line about what sort of pain do you want in your life? Every pursuit worth having comes with some degree of pain and struggle and sacrifice, so choose what flavor of shit sandwich you want to eat. Yeah. It's funny on the the idea of the really unsexy stuff that becomes sexy when reflected in the glory of you standing on stage and doing something really cool. But if you don't want to do something, if you genuinely don't want to do something, it's almost impossible for you to get yourself to do it. And that's the, it doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it.

1:48:34Not even willing to do, like wants to do, ideally, because you can be willing to do something, but the amount of willpower that it's going to take in order to get you through that is fucking insurmountable. And also it's going to detract away from all of the other things that you should do in your life. Now, it's unfortunate that some people never get an obsession that's worth anything. I was thinking about this a lot, that I would call myself, there's that term serial monogamist. I would call myself a serial obsessive, but around about every seven years or so, I get a new obsession. And it was cricket from the age of 10 until 18.

1:49:12Then it was club promo from 18 until 25, 26, 27. And then it was personal development until early thirties. And then it's been the podcast from then until now. And that's cool because all of those obsessions largely have not been that destructive and maybe have even been beneficial to me and the world, Except for the cricket. I will stand my ground with that. You're a fucking Philistine. You're an uncultured American Philistine. Okay. And anything that is in America is derivative of something that happened in Britain. It's more boring baseball in considering how boring baseball is. I disagree.

1:49:53I disagree. It's a sport that's only played when the weather's good. Okay. It lasts for five days and sometimes ends in a draw. Jesus Christ. It's almost mandatory to drink. This sounds like a circle of hell. No, it's not. It's England. Okay. Which is a circle of hell. No, no, no. That's incorrect. That's incorrect. I love it. That's highly offensive. I love England. Good, good, good. Here's 10 years of therapy summarized in one minute. Number one, no one is coming to save you. Being a functioning adult means realizing you are responsible for everything in your life, even if it wasn't your fault.

1:50:29Number two, strong boundaries make for good relationships. Weak boundaries make drama. Number three, many of your problems don't get fixed. You just learn how to live despite them. Number four, your mind lies to you all the time. It will tell you that the world is ending when it's not, that a mistake is fatal when it's not, that everyone is thinking about you and laughing about you when they're not. Learn how to tell your mind to shut the fuck up. Number five, stop trying to convince people to like you. The right people won't need to be convinced and everyone else is just going to get very annoyed.

1:51:00Number six, sometimes the best thing you can do is let a dream die. No one likes to hear that, but it's true. And number seven, only a few people in your life are going to matter in the long run. When you find them, treat them right, make time for them, keep them close, and be grateful. You know, sometimes when I put together stuff like that, I'm like hearing you read that back to me, like the thought that comes to mind is like, how is this not taught in schools? Like how are we just, how is this not just part of - Discover this at 34. Right. Like why do people have to listen to podcasts all day to like hear some of this stuff?

1:51:42It just seems so fundamental. You know, but it is interesting. One of the things that my perspective has shifted, you know, I've been doing this for 17 years. Too long. Yeah, a lot. Yeah, a long time. And when I look at things that I've either changed my mind about or changed my perspective on over the course of my career, I think one of the big ones is that early in my career, I really thought it was all about just ideas, information, knowledge. right it's like finding there's like a few pieces of key knowledge that if you can kind of figure it out if you can dig through enough psych studies and find the application like it's just going to be a key that unlocks all these areas of your life and i think if you were a consumer of personal growth advice like that the experience you have often feels that way but i don't think that's true.

1:52:40I think actually what is true is that there are just certain concepts, ideas, um, principles that are pretty obvious and we all kind of already know them, but we, we lose, it's, it's extremely difficult to keep them in front of our base through day-to-day life. And so we need, we need rituals and reminders consistently. And I actually think that for most of human history, I think religion was that mechanism of those reminders to keep people like, hey, nobody's like, you're responsible for this. Hey, treat people well. That person matters. Let go of the small stuff. But I think in our modern world, most people are losing that.

1:53:29And so you're almost seeing this like reinvention of those rituals online through like what you and I do through podcasts and Instagram and YouTube and all this stuff. And I do it as well, right? It's like I've got my shows and I've got the channels I follow and the people I follow. and it's like they, it's not that any individual piece of information is like changing my life, unlocking this whole area of my life. It's just like, oh yeah, it's a good reminder. That's so true. I think because the modern world is filled with novelty, anything that we've seen before, we don't usually want to hear again.

1:54:07If you think, well, I already know that, even if you don't, even if there's 10 things that you basically just need to hear over and over again. What you need to do, I think, is play the game of novelty whilst just re-delivering the same core message. And that's going to be anti-memetic and wholly unimpressive to people. This is the fucking clean your room thing again. This is the tell the truth thing again. Oh, neediness, is it? And you go, okay, well, I can lie to you and create this sort of Fugazi Gaslight thing where I say, this new thing is the big unlock. Or I can just try to repackage stuff that is the existing concept.

1:54:49So it satisfies your desire for novelty and my own desire for novelty whilst reinforcing the principle that is most accurate. And that's really, I think, what a lot of the game is now. And we were talking before we got started. I think that very very dense information consumption and over optimization is kind of dead in the water and the alternative is reminding people stuff that they already know in a manner that just you know how the Ebbinghaus forgetting curve works it's spaced repetition it's why an key flashcards and stuff work like that basically you need that but with novelty added in so that people are just regularly reminded, oh yeah, I just need to like go for a walk and sleep more.

1:55:39Oh right. Yeah. I just, I probably need to say how I feel to my partner when something upsets me. I I've started one way I think about it sometimes is that a lot of this advice, it's almost like having a fire extinguisher in the room, you know, like it's, it's, you've probably had the experience where, you know, maybe you read something five years ago and you're like, yeah, it's obvious. I know that. And then something happens in your life, right? It's like you get dumped or like somebody dies or you move across the world and you're like, suddenly you're like, oh my God, I need this so bad right now.

1:56:16Well, one of the most embarrassing things is to realize that the problem you're facing was solved by something that you learned long ago. Yes, but didn't appreciate it. And then have to now go and relearn. Yeah. And you're like, fuck. Or that you're now facing a problem that you faced in the past and that you not only learned something, but a specific type of pain that both me and you do. You go, oh, I wrote about this. I fucking wrote this thing. Dude, tell me about it. And I'm like - Tell me about it. Yeah, yeah. So I had a, speaking of like, you know, ascending the mountain and struggling to deal with fame, you know, when my book took off, you know I went into a real identity crisis I think I've talked to you about this before on the show but you know I had that first year or two when my book was number one everywhere it was like just all these crazy things happening I felt super disoriented and like very lost and kind of went through a little bit of a depression became I got everything I ever wanted and it made me depressed yeah pretty much and like massive imposter syndrome for for a period of time and started saying yes to a bunch of things I didn't want to say yes to, right?

1:57:25And so then I ended up in this situation where I'm like, I feel trapped in my own career. I'm like obligated to do all these things for these people that I don't really want to be doing. I'm like stressed all the time. I'm anxious. My health's going to shit. And it's - And I'm fat. And I'm fat on top of everything else. It's that insult to injury. Fucking fat. and uh

1:57:53it's so funny because I remember when I was doing my film um you know it was we were doing a film on the settler not giving a fuck and I hadn't really read the book since I wrote it and um and so I went back I'm like well I should probably read my book again so I went back and I read this was like 2018, 2019 I went back and it was like all the shit I just I'd been spending the last two years dealing with it was like in my own book and i'm like i'm i'm fucking all of this up i'm like i'm saying yes to things i don't care about i'm like overloading my life with all these distractions i'm like not standing up for myself i've like lost clarity on what i value like just like chapter by chapter by chapter i'm choosing the wrong struggles yeah and i i just i it was rough it was really rough I had to really have a heart-to-heart with myself of like, dude, whoa, get it together, man.

1:58:48Yeah, it's like personal growth groundhog day. One thing that I think is kind of important, I understand how you can say, hey, look, there's a small bucket of principles, over-optimization, thinking about your life too much, all of these things, like you're majoring in the minors, et cetera, et cetera. that is true once you've been through it yes it is not true before you've been through it breaking the rules of the game before you've learned how to play the game is not breaking the rules of the game and being an innovator or being some essentialized distiller of cool stuff it's playing a different game and this is why i highly recommend that people become totally obsessed with personal development and productivity and david allen's getting things done and james clears Atomic Habits and Morgan House's Psychology of Money and the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck for like probably between three and six years.

1:59:46And then once you've done that, you can sort of get your black belt, put it on and go, okay, yeah. 95 % of that was packaging. Here are the bits that really matter. And I'm now going to spend the rest of time trying to just maintain that momentum and not overcomplicate stuff. And maybe once a year, there'll be a novel insight, which is genuinely principled and fundamental that I just didn't know yet. But you can't get to that level without having gone through the first bit. And maybe it's just the case that the world of everybody went through the same, holy fuck, Like this is novel, but talking about like choosing your struggles appropriately or even neediness and stuff like that, that was novel when it happened.

2:00:35But that area of cognitive real estate, that territory is now being, you know, when you play a video game and the map's all fogged out. Yeah. And then after you've played it for a while, the areas get opened up. It's like, well, that area is opened up now. So assuming that you've gone through this process previously, it was kind of like humans were moving at the same level that technology developed. But if you start doing personal development now, there's so much technology that you can speed run all the way up to the top. Whereas for us, it's like, wow, telling the truth is something. This is revolutionary.

2:01:07Not that I've just discovered it, but it's just been said. Yeah. Right. This is this is groundbreaking research. But because there's so much to go through and maybe it's just the case that the era that we're in had a formative hockey curve, like J-shaped thing where, wow, there's a fucking ton of insight that's repackaged ancient wisdom for a secular world that's distilled down into good language that's memorable. I should I'm learning this as it goes and a new book and a new book and a new book. And now we're at the stage where much of that territory that's important has been captured. And now, because everybody kind of started the race, whether you were 18 or 28 or 48, everybody started it kind of at the same time.

2:01:52And Peterson comes along and you and James and da-da-da-da-da. And you go, oh, wow. Like that's now all being done. So everybody has a degree of personal development fatigue, but that's not true if you're starting your journey. If you're like, hey, I'm a fat piece of shit. Correct. and I'm 25 and I've never done any of this. It's like lock in for the next six years. Yes, absolutely. And then it is very much after that it is just about maintaining the practice. It is interesting, like to nerd out a little bit on kind of the history of this, because I do think this is interesting, right? It is, we do live in a very unique moment in the fact that this information is so diffuse, universally available, completely free.

2:02:37Like it, when I was growing up, you had to go pay Tony Robbins$10 ,000 to hear any of this, right? You had to go, you had to join a graduate program at Cornell and like study psychology for three years to hear any of this, right? So there was like massive gatekeepers. Not democratized. Not democratized at all. Extremely, like marketed extremely aggressively and like very, very. Predatory in some circumstances. circumstances. Yeah, with another podcast for another day. But the internet is what opened up the opportunity for this kind of diffusion of all this information across the entire population.

2:03:16And I think when I look at kind of my generation, you know, me, James, Ryan, and a bunch of others, like really what we were doing is we were taking the stuff that used to only be available behind closed doors or in really exclusive seminars or, you know, deep in academic research. And then we were repackaging it for a wider internet audience. And I think through the 2010s, that was a pretty novel and important function that was being played within society. But now we're at the point where like you can literally just get on Instagram and see 800 pieces of the same advice any day of the week that you want.

2:03:58And it's all free and it's all like widely available and it's all repeated to death. Um, and so it does raise an interesting point of like, I, I do think that saturation of information for people is probably like you said, it, it, it's, it's being sped run, speed run. Yes. Speed ran, speed run, um, speed ran at this point, you know whereas like 15 years ago you would have to spend years and years like really digging deep into books and and studies and research now you can probably get the gist of that within a year or two and so it really does make the implementation aspect of it i think more important than ever before but there's not hot.

2:04:43That's not generalizable, right? So that's where the rub is now. So in many ways, I feel it's like a very weird time. It is. It's certainly a transition. And it's this idea of something that's anti-mimetic, not just something that isn't mimetic, not something that won't spread, but something that is actively pushed back against and not spread or maybe even criticized to the point where it sort of shrinks. and unfortunately telling people the new information isn't better necessarily or at least not at the speed that perhaps it used to be. The market slowed down. It might be a way to think about it.

2:05:21Doesn't sound very good because if you've got a problem, you want to believe that there's a solution. But if there's a solution that's already out there, the reason that you haven't fixed your problem is your fault as opposed to, oh, this new thing that's novel, that's what. We've got this massive recency bias around it. And yeah, there's definitely a transition period going on. And that's why I think your Solved podcast series is fucking great. That's different because it is so in-depth, whether you want to learn about fear or relationships or whatever, it is so in-depth that that's not been done before.

2:05:55Some of the stuff that I've got coming up with different guests sat around a table, it's not been done before. Okay, that's unique and at least novel, genuinely novel and the insights that have come out of it are novel. But for the most part, if it's, and this is going to get worse with AI, it's going to get significantly worse. However bad and repetitive and sloppy you think that your least favorite optimization obsessed influencer of choice has been, imagine that powered by fucking infinite robot army. That's coming. Yeah. And not to mention a thousand copycats on TikTok and Instagram, right?

2:06:34So it's just like anything that gets any traction is just going to be parroted thousands and thousands of times. It was already derivative but now it's derivative at scale powered by AI. Yes. So I actually think we're going to re-enter, speaking of being bullish and bearish, I actually think I'm bullish on authority and credibility over the next 10 years. I think there's going to be a mass return towards because I just think there's going to be so much slop out there and especially in in this market like there's just gonna be so much crap being espoused by like random stick figures and shit on YouTube like that people are going to lose patience very quickly and they're going to crave like please just show me somebody who like actually knows what they're talking about or has actually done something um and so it's it's actually kind of ironic because it's I think the the great explosion in the dissemination of this information to people 10, 15 years ago, it was kind of the destruction of like credibility.

2:07:43Will be its downfall. Right. Credibility doesn't matter anymore, right? It's like, if you've got a good idea, you can just write a blog post and everybody can read it, you know? And like, that was great back then, but now it's been taken to such an extreme that there's going to be like this incredible demand for authority and credibility. I think there's almost certainly going to be a pedestalization of legacy media, mainstream media. I think that if you get placed on 60 Minutes or the new Dr. Phil or whatever, whatever the next version of that is. Because anybody can do YouTube. What are you grinning about?

2:08:16Dude, I got a crazy story for you. So, so yes, I agree. And, and like, this is already happening. So, so you mentioned it earlier. I started a, a, an AI company last year. It's an AI personal growth coach. It's called purpose. Everybody should go check it out. It's cool. check it out. Um, so when we, we launched in December and we hired a PR agency, um, to go get a bunch of publicity and like conventional media, you know, put the logos on the website, all that shit. And dude, it was so funny. Um, so the publicists, they go, they get all these like, you know, interviews with big newspaper. I'm not going to call, I'm not going to name check anybody.

2:08:55Um, big newspapers, newspapers, everybody would have heard, uh, has heard of TV stations, radio stations, like all traditional stuff, very prestigious, you know, we're, we're, we're trying to get the logos. So I go and I do these interviews with like, quote unquote, like prestigious journalists. And we talk about the app for like 10 minutes or whatever. And you can tell that like, they don't give two shits. Like, it's just, you know, they've got some generic article that they're doing about like AI products or whatever. And they're just going to drop a quote from me in it and, and, and mention, mention the product.

2:09:32And so it very like half-assed 10 minute conversation. And, and, and we wrap up very quickly and I'm like, okay, well, this was very fast. And then the journalist would be like, well, wait, while I've got you here. So I'm working on a book right now. And I was wondering if, um, if I could run some ideas by you, this happens three times. Three times. So basically what happened was the journalists understanding their position, which is prestige media. This guy needs a logo for his website, you know, because it's... I'm the logo. Right. I'm the logo. I'm working on a book. This guy's a huge best-selling author.

2:10:14Prestige for expertise trade. Let's barter. Motherfuckers, dude. So most of those calls was me giving career advice.

2:10:26in exchange for a quote in their fucking newspaper. I would have just said to all of them once they've done it, it's like, I think your idea is shit. I'm sorry. I think your idea sucks. Nobody's going to read this. Give up. I highly recommend that you don't do it. Just leave them all dejected. Oh, man. It was crazy. It's a weird world, man. Sorry to interrupt your scrolling, but this is a friendly reminder that your time on this earth is extremely limited and everyone you love is going to die one day. so maybe you should put the fucking phone away and go and do something meaningful dude the the death salience thing is just it's it's it's magical isn't it isn't like memento mori like it's just so magical and especially like i guess with like you know the doom scrolling kids these days like it is um it it's such an important practice i think to just like take that moment, not every day, but like periodically of like, is this, if I were to die soon, is this what I would want to be doing?

2:11:32You know, if when I'm 80, am I going to look back and be proud of what I'm doing? And it's, that's one of those things. I'm glad how mimetic that is. Correct. It's, because I remember, I remember, so in Subtle Art, the last chapter is called And Then You Die. and I remember my, my publisher was like, you know, this is kind of dark. Are you sure? You know, publisher thing. Supposed to finish it on an up note. Yeah, exactly. Um, you'd be all inspiring and everything. Um, but I felt really strongly about it because it's just like the, the kind of being confronted with death had been like so impactful in my life.

2:12:12Um, and it was a big part of stoic philosophy, Buddhist philosophy, a bunch of different policies um that's one thing that i never expected to be memetic but it is incredibly memetic and it is i'm like thrilled with how much traction that gets and and that people do resonate with it and they do find value in it and they do respond to it and engage in it um so yeah i just i just think it's it's a great practice i'm glad that people stop scrolling and think about it yeah i a few questions that i think are useful what you regret from the last year. Like what you regret that you did too much of and not enough of.

2:12:52Typically that's the same stuff that you did for the last decade, but you can't remember the last decade. So if you look at the last 12 months of your life, what did you do too much of and what did you do too little of? If you wanted to make 85-year-old you as miserable as possible, when they look back on their life, oh, that would be easy. What would you do? What would you do more of? What would you do less of? You know, I mean, there's that famous five regrets of the dying, right? Wish I'd allowed myself to be happy. I wish I kept in touch with my friends more. I wish I hadn't worked so much.

2:13:24We are maybe just about to breach the first wave of people who had a good chunk of their life spent on their smartphone and on devices who were about to die. It has to be number one. Yeah. It has to be number one. Yeah. There's no way that, I wish I'd spent less time looking at a screen. It just has to jump to the top of the charts. As soon as that wave of people begin to die en masse, and it's still probably what, like smartphone's been around 20, just under 20 years now. So it's 65, 70, like it's still not quite there. A couple more decades. Yeah, one more decade and that's going to start. But within two, it's just going to be fucking...

2:14:07I don't know, man. I've seen some good memes. That's true. Some really good memes. That is true, but you've never been the subject of them. That's why you have the, you have the optimal level of fame. You have the optimal level of fame, which is you can get a seat at a restaurant that's very busy, but for the most part, people aren't going to make a meme about you on the internet. Yeah. I think that's the way you should go. All right. Last one. Yeah. At some point you realized that the permission you've been waiting for all along was your own. Yeah. I think so often we seek advice when really all we want is somebody that just tell us it's okay.

2:14:43It's okay to want what we want. It's okay to stop doing something, to change our mind, to be wrong about something.

2:14:56I don't get, it's interesting, you know, back in the day, I used to get a lot of emails, like fan emails and stuff, people asking for questions for advice. I still get some, but it is amazing how many emails, messages questions i get that it you can really just boil it down to this person feels bad about something and just wants to be told it's okay to feel bad about it and or this person wants to do something but they're afraid and they just need somebody to say no no you should do that yeah that's it that's all i want they don't need a fucking theory or a framework or you know a full like breakdown of their childhood trauma.

2:15:39They just need somebody to say like, it's okay, you should do that. It seems important to you. Yeah, I think the world is kind of split into two groups of people, people who don't know how to improve their lives and those who are too scared to start. And the first group doesn't care that they're going to do what they do. They're not going to overthink it. And then there's another group that's paralyzed by that capacity to think. Obviously, there's people that manage to overcome that. But almost anybody who is thoughtful and making shit happen in the world has had to overcome their thoughtfulness.

2:16:17Their thoughtfulness is the fuel, but it's also the barrier to getting there. Because as we said right at the top, the degree of uncertainty that you have is paralyzing. It keeps you in place. So yes, someone coming along and going, hey man, it's okay to want that thing. or it's okay to not think that that thing's cool. You should try and do that thing. You just should and close the loop. And that's fine. I describe myself as having a lifestyle-wide praise kink.

2:16:53I respond well to encouragement. I respond really fucking well to encouragement. And again, there's two types of British people. There's British people who thrive on mutual piss-taking. And there's British people that were meant to be American people. And I'm in the latter camp. You're a very enthusiastic country, right? You basically have permanent first-line cocaine energy. That's it. I want to make enthusiasm great again. And I want to re-export it back to the UK. Mega. And that was just something for me. That was a pathway for me. Hey, I'm happy to do the mutual piss-taking, sat around the table with my boys.

2:17:32but when it comes to really going for stuff, I much prefer to be around people that are like, yeah, you got this, go and fucking crush it as opposed to gay. The first one works for me. I've got tons of friends that are back home who they don't care. It just doesn't, in fact, Piers Morgan had this conversation with Piers. He's like, I like the piss taking. I'm like, Piers, that's because you've got a galactic ego and you need someone to keep your feet on the ground. That's fine. That's good for you. Those of us that are a little bit more permanently unsure, for me, it's good. the encouragement thing's good.

2:18:02And that's very cringy in the UK. So you export yourself to the US where that's kind of, that runs much more in the pioneer spirit. And I'm like, huh, it's okay for me to want that. It's okay for me to say that that's something that I like. It was okay for me when I was 27, 28, I'm a club promoter who's going to stop drinking. That doesn't sound very revolutionary in the world of athletic brewing co na beers near be a you know heineken double zero bullshit um but i mean in british culture as a club promoter in 2000 and fucking 16 sounds insane that was yeah that was me inventing fire and it sometimes people can do stuff without anybody telling them that it's okay but a lot of the time that's what people are looking for i'm worried about this thing happening and I'm scared and I, and somebody go, it's all right, man, you got this.

2:18:57Or maybe you don't, but you'll be all right anyway. Yes. I'm okay. No matter what happens. That too. I, I tend to notice this as, I mean, it's, this is pretty proportional to age, right? Like it's young people, I feel like need this reassurance all the time. I feel like as you get older, you just start realizing you're like, nobody knows what the fuck they're doing. And no one was thinking about you anyway. Yeah, nobody. Yeah, exactly. Nobody's really gives a shit what you, what, what you decide. Um. It is interesting. You know, the British culture thing, hearing you describe it, it just, it feels to me as an American, it feels like the epitome of the I'd rather be right than happy.

2:19:34Yeah. It's, or maybe it's like I'd rather be snarky than happy. Well, I'd rather be snarky than cringey, and cringey is being enthusiastic. Yeah. Because if you plant a flag in the ground and say, this is my position, you create a criteria for success, which also means you create a criteria for failure. Yeah. And that means that if someone can snipe away at it, they can make you fail. But also that if you succeed, you leave them behind. There's this wonderful difference between American people and British people. American people hope that you succeed in case you take them with you. And British people hope that you fail in case you leave them behind.

2:20:09And I wish it wasn't true. And it's not for everyone. But many of the people, like the UK had the second highest millionaire exits in 2024 behind China. but China's got like 13 times the population or something. It's insane how much bigger it is. So per capita, we lost the most millionaires by multiples. Why? It's not a very welcoming environment for people that want to do different things, that want to be innovative, that don't want to sort of follow that path. And it doesn't matter about whether or not you want to be a fucking millionaire or not. But if you want to make a change to your lifestyle or the way that you look or the things that you think or the culture that you're embedded in or the way that you raise your kids or whatever, it's just not that welcoming.

2:20:49And that's why we have the same number of universities in the top 10 globally, but American universities produce five times more entrepreneurs than British universities do. And remember that we have an international fucking cohort. So people come, get contorted by the culture, and then leave with this veneer, this sort of varnish that's gone on top of them. but yeah it's a it's an interesting one dude look I appreciate the fuck out of you it's fascinating to watch this whatever we're in some renaissance I don't know whether it's a renaissance or a dark ages that's happening but there's something there's something sort of twisting and changing in this world personal growth personal development and I really fucking appreciate that you're there helping to steward it in whatever way you can it's really cool same man thank you cool thank you what's where people go markmanson.net solve podcast and purpose.app free 7 day trial check it out markmanson in your pocket but without the touchy feely thing yeah so it's an AI that's optimized to challenge you so it's call you out on your bullshit spot blind spots challenge your assumptions basically all the things like a good coach would do to help you grow instead of just, you know, kiss your ass and make you feel good.

2:22:15Unreal. Appreciate you, man. Until next time. Thanks. When I first started doing personal growth, I really wanted to read the best books, the most impactful ones, the most entertaining ones, the ones that were the easiest to read and the most dense and interesting. But there wasn't a list of them. So I scoured and scoured and scoured and then gave up and just started reading on my own. And then I made a list of 100 of the best books that I've ever found. and you can get that for free right now. So if you want to spend more time around great books that aren't going to completely kill your memory and your attention just trying to get through a single page, go to chriswillx.com slash books to get my list completely free of 100 books you should read before you die.

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