#640 - Malcolm Collins - Why Do So Many People Not Want To Have Children?

27:26or the virus or whatever you want to call it, has gotten too good at finding kids. And so we have to find new systems. And also just the environment that kids are in was internet, with social media. It's so different. And then with AI that they're gonna face, how do you keep your kid from dating an AI girlfriend? When they can have a deep fake that's perfect and hot and loves them, right? They need to want something other than hedonism. And that's a difficult message to convey to kids if they adopt the dominant social morays today. So to recap what you were talking about to do with this, sort of almost monotheistic future or this sort of monoculture future that we would end up with if birth rate decline continues for the people that might look at this and say, well, this is you trying to put forth.

28:16You want it to be a white ethno state. You want it to be more of your progeny that are out there. your point is that that is the subgroup, which is one of the few which are continuing to be okay at the moment. We're actually going to lose genetic and racial diversity if we allow the current trends to continue because some of the groups that are reproducing with the lowest fertility rates are the ones that add to that diversity. So in the future, what you end up with is a very small number of different cohorts of stuff like armish, stuff like not even Mormons apparently anymore who are then downstream going to be the ones that fill out the entire country.

28:55Yeah, if we do nothing, the future is really just conservative Christians and conservative Jews and maybe conservative Muslims. Those seem to be the only groups that are just like persistently resistant to this. So that's a pretty sort of bland future racially from... from yeah and i and there's some groups that in the very near future like i if i was looking at this like an ecologist right like the groups i would be probably most concerned about right now groups like the jans in the parcie i think like a lot of americans don't think about what there's some of the oldest most distinct cultures in the world right now and they will almost certainly have collapsed in in population by the end of the century to the point where we'll be difficult for them to carry on their traditions.

29:33coming back to that conversation about we get prosperous, we give women education, they enter the job market and they have other things to do with their life. What's your proposal? Presumably you're not saying that we need to rip women out of the workplace or education, and if it is the case that we don't want people to be less prosperous and we also want to let people choose what they want to do, if this is what they want to do, if women don't want to to have kids or if they don't feel like they're ready and they don't want to have kids until they are they're concerned about the living cost and the cost of bringing a child into this othering concerned about the environment they're concerned about losing their life freedom and struggling to find the right part now whatever it is they've got better things to do with all of the money that they've just found like why shouldn't they be allowed to do that?

30:20So I would say I think they should be allowed to do that and I think that real feminist today and when I say a feminist I mean somebody who wants gender well I don't know of feminism as a People who want gender equality, whatever word you want to use for wanting gender equality in 100 years and 200 years to be an option, right? You're sort of at the crux of history right now, because no group that really has it gender equality, except for maybe Israel, we can get to that later, there's questions there, whatever, but it's anywhere close to above repopulation rate. So those those groups and those cultural traditions are going to eventually disappear.

31:00And what they will do is they will get better in the short term at taking the kids of people from these conservative traditions, but eventually, I mean, just the way cultural evolution works, the conservative traditions will build systems that have resistance to whatever technique that they're using, and they will not be able to repopulate that way anymore. So if you actually care about this, then you can join the the grand experiment. And the grand experiment is, and this is something we genuinely don't know yet. Is it possible to have gender equality and a high fertility rate? My family, so like when I look at what my wife and I did, I was asked to be on this podcast, the moment I'm here, not on my choice, I would have it on typically with me.

31:40We write our books together, we run our companies together, is one solution to the gender equality question, which is to do everything together, right? Your books together, run your companies together, raise your kids together, right? But there are other solutions to this question that people can experiment with and what I love is this isn't a question of what's the most moral way to do things? Sort of the future will decide who was actually successful who was able to have a lot of kids Motivate the continuation of the tradition through their children, you know You get 18 years to pitch to your kids that your way of living is a good way of living and if your kids don't like that or they don't agree Is that I think we're blessed and that we live in a society where they can choose something else And so, I think we are going to have hopefully a lot of people trying new ways of living, new ways of trying to achieve gender equality.

32:32Like my family, doing everything with your spouse isn't the way that gender equality is typically envisioned when people talk about it, but it is a form of gender equality. Can liberalism last under demographic decline? What about— Oh, no, no, it's gone. It's dead. I mean, if you talk conservative liberalism maybe, like if you're talking about traditional of liberalism. If you're talking about the progressive movement, I often say it's a bit like, if you get a certain blast of radiation, right? Your DNA can be scrambled, your cells can no longer replicate. You don't know that you're a dead man walking yet, you know, before you begin to feel the pain, but there is nothing that can be done to save you at that point.

33:05The fertility rate is so low isn't that community, there's really nothing that can be done. Even if you look at the genetic level right now, it's so funny, conservatives are often like, Hey, you're on our team. Why are you alerting them to the scope of the problem? We win if we just sit back and let them disappear. And it's like they're going to disappear no matter what. If you look at the heredibility of voting patterns, which is around 30 to 50%. You know, whether this is done with identical twin studies and stuff, this is not like French science. You can look up geopolitics on Wikipedia. It's like mainstream.

33:36And you look at current fertility rates in countries like the US. we should expect about a one -standard deviation shift conservative in voting patterns over the next century. In the next 10 or 20 years, we'll see a massive shift to the left because they, as family units, get atomized. People vote more progressively. When people don't have kids, they vote more progressively. But after that, you're going to see a massive shift in the other direction and it's just inevitable from the statistics at this point. Has any country tried to fix this problem through authoritarianism and how does that work?

34:11A lot have. It just doesn't. So Romania fit, what is it? Order, 70, 70, 70 or something? I don't know. Maybe I'm getting confused with Star Wars orders. But they decided under the communist period that they were going to ban abortion. And they thought, oh, this will be great. It'll shoot up fertility race. And it did for a very brief period of time, like two years or something like that. Then people found ways around it. And then after the law was repealed, fertility rates crashed because fertility or having kids became associated

34:45with really poverty often or low social status. And so you can look at countries like Iran that have been trying to implement things. It's really funny. I watch what China is implementing right now. And it's like, Iran tried all of this 10 years ago. You guys can just look at what happened. You're going to have to get really aggressive if you actually want to solve this. And that's where I get really scared. because a lot of countries, what we have found is that you can dictatorially, like people have tried to, you know, ban abortions, if you look what's happening in China now, likely shutting down access to the sectomy clinics and stuff like that.

35:22So countries can ban these things, and then it doesn't work because it doesn't work. So then what did they do? Then you get real handmaid's tail, and that gets scary for me. It was actually the piece on us in the Guardian. And they were like, they had quoted me saying something like that and they go, well, that sounds like a threat. And I'm like, are you, like, do you have the mind of a child? It's like when I tell a child, don't touch the stove, you're gonna bring your hands. They're like, that sounds like a threat. I'm trying to protect you here. But there's nothing I can do. You know, at the end of the day, the Titanic's hitting the iceberg, I'm just trying to prepare for what's gonna happen next.

35:58But what happened next get really interesting. It's sorry to keep talking. I don't want to. No, keep going. OK, so it was really cool here. And if you look historically, so when I started caring about this, I was in Korea, right? You know, 95 % population collapse. It was funny to think about because the memory is so strong there of less than a century ago, Japan coming over, you know, murdering in Korea and China, millions of people, and there's this conflict there, China, Korea, Japan, you know, trying to, well, less Korea trying to take over the other two, but mostly the other two trying to take over each other.

36:30There's a lot of history there, and it's so funny that now, any one of them could just, I'm like, how does Korea solve this? I guess they could import people from Japan or China? No, you can't because their populations are collapsing. Any one of them could non -violently just like walk into their neighbor a hundred years from now, they were able to motivate their citizens to kill people, but they were not able to motivate them to have kids. And this is what's so interesting. It changes the game, but in a really beautiful way. You look at people like Putin who don't get the new world yet, right?

37:02The world used to be you keep out immigrants that you maintain cultural integrity and when you want to spread your culture You go to other countries you kill their people you subjugate them and you force them to convert to your culture That's not the game anymore So you look at Russia, which has a desperately low fertility rate attacking their coastless cultural and like ethnic neighbors The Ukraine who also has a desperately low fertility rate both killing like an entire generation here And they're never gonna recover from this. It is not the game anymore, the game that they're still playing.

37:35You win now, not through war, but with love. And I say love and not just sex or spamming kids, because if you spam kids, they're gonna breed like caged panda bears, like everyone else. They're going to not have any dedication to whatever weird thing about your culture caused you to have a lot of kids. And they're just gonna drift off into this monoculture and disappear. So what you need to do is you need to have a lot of kids, but you also need to do a great job raising them, make them proud of your cultural group, make them want to continue that cultural group, and those are the people who are going to be around in the future, and I'm really excited about that, because that is so much better than the old system of murdering people.

38:13Can you try and explain or illustrate what a world in deep population decline would be like? Yeah, so the first thing, and I don't know, talk about, you know, I don't, the first thing is all economies are gonna collapse. Pretty much the Western economy. So our economic system is sort of a pyramid scheme. A lot of people know this, but let's just spill it out. If you look historically, people go with this truism. If I put money on this stock market, that money grows on average. That has been happening because of two things. The number of workers has been growing exponentially, and the productivity per worker has been growing around linearly, a little exponentially but mostly linearly.

38:58Yes, technology has been growing exponentially but the productivity per worker is about linear. Or at least not close to the explosion worker population. That is why the economy has always been growing. If the worker population in the developed world begins to collapse exponentially, people are like, well, why don't people in the desperately poor countries counter, because by definition, they have small economies. That's why they're poor, because their economies are small. So you don't need to wait for the world's population to begin to collapse, for all of the developed world's economies to begin to collapse.

39:29So you're gonna begin to see the economy shrink on average. It won't be like it is now, where on average things go up, on average things go down. When things go down on average, people react very differently. You don't leave your money in the stock market anymore. You're going to have math withdrawals of money from the stock market. And then this begins to break a bunch of other systems. So you see things like Detroit. Okay, so why did Detroit ultimately end up having the problems it was having? And there's a few reasons. One, is our society uses this miraculous cheat code called debt. Now I am a private equity VC guy.

40:03I'm very familiar with debt. So let's just talk a little bit about how debt works and why it's such a miracle. If I'm making a $10 investment in $8 is that in debt and $2 is equity and that investment grows to just $12, my equity in that investment has doubled. But if it shrinks just $1, my equity has halved. We leveraged our land, our businesses, leveraged means took out debt against, our cities, our states, our nations. It's not. People look at the national debt. No, no, no, no. It's leveraged to the hilt all the way down. If things start shrinking, the whole thing falls apart. And yes, national debt is a little different than personal debt and stuff like that.

40:50But what you are beginning to see is essentially what we saw in Detroit. So people are like, oh, my house will be worse last. That's great. Yeah, it's great if houses go down 20%, maybe 50%. But when people know a house is always going to decrease in price, it decreases to a dollar. And when a house is a dollar, you know, like what you saw in Detroit, right? When a house is a dollar, there's no reason to maintain it because houses cost a lot to maintain. As anyone who is a homeowner knows, you put so much money into your house, but you justify it because okay, well, it's an asset that I own and people stop investing in assets that way.

41:19So the whole way we relate to money and the economy is gonna change. So endless urban blight, economy is not functioning the way that they're supposed to function. So then what happens? Well, where do people begin to invest? What happens in a negative scenario, so negative scenario, and this is what I'm terrified of, is the developed world finds a cheat code, which is immigrants. What they realize is that they can cheese their collapsing populations through mass immigration, but this cheat code only works if they keep really the only collection of countries that has an above -repopulation right now, which is mostly in Africa, desperately poor.

41:56So now you have an economic incentive, a gun to the head of the entire developed world that Africa must stay in desperate poverty. Oh, you use Africa almost like a breeding ground to create the future population to be pulled across into other countries. Yeah, it's sick, but that seems to be like, when I talk to them, that's like actually the going plan right now. But I don't think it's going to work. I don't think that that plan is going to work so we can ignore it. So what really happens? Because their economies are going to collapse before they can do that sort of mass. Right now, you're getting a lot of immigrants, but it's immigrants who want to leave.

42:30And I think what a lot of people forget is that a lot of people don't want to leave. Even when Ireland was suffering the potato famine, what a lot of people don't know is that the landlord, there was a rash of landlord murders at the time. And so they got scared. And so they would, sometimes I don't know how frequently, offer to pay for all of their tenants to go to America. On coffin ships, it was horrible, but at least it was the idea. That's the way I think many people would be imported these days, right? So a horrible immigration, but at least, They had the option to leave during the potato famine.

43:00During this time when people would walk into town, they thought everyone was dead and then the corpses would start animating and they realized that they were just starting, like it was bad. But the majority, a lot of people wanted to stay. And so I think what they're going to realize is that this, this trickle of immigrants that we have right now is pretty close to the max trickle of immigrants you can get and it's only just offsetting population collapse right now. And when they get to the US, when they get to Europe, they're fertility rate collapse. First generation immigrants in the US only have a fertility rate of 1 .7 well below population rate.

43:31So it's not like you could just bring immigrants and they solve the problem. You need to keep importing people. But anyway, okay Ignore all this. Okay, so worlds classic. Where do you put your money if on average the economy is collapsing? This is where it gets cool because we get something we haven't had in a long time Individual human lives start to matter Individual human culture start to matter if you have a cultural group that has a high fertility rate and it's technophilic like they engage with technology And even if they're technophobic, but less so they're technophobic, that becomes a group you want to invest in.

44:01That becomes a place you want to place money because that's the only place that you can be fairly sure is going to grow in aggregate in the future. And that creates a totally different world economy than the one we have now. And it's a very interesting world economy. And so when people say like, what actually is our foundation sort of doing? Really what we're doing is we're trying to identify those groups right now and build connections between them so that we can have a pluralistic group of thriving economies of the willing. And of the willing, what I mean is that people who were willing to have kids, willing to give those kids a good enough life that they wanted to stay in that culture.

44:39Since learning about the current trends of population collapse, declining birth rates, et cetera, I've started to view a lot of the problems that we're facing, especially the cultural ways that people see dating, family life, having kids, relationships with with their parents, the future of the world, through a very different lens. And there's a trend at the moment that's only recently, like within the last couple of months, I've started seeing come out on the internet, which is one of many in their 20s getting the sector as a protest against feminists that want to be able to have free and easy sex.

45:14It's literally like a clap back, where you've got the pill, I'm gonna get the snip. Have you seen this? I'm a fan, I mean, I focus more on the trans -maxing movement. Have you heard of that? No, what's trans -maxing? Oh, it's fascinating. So it's a group of guys who are not like traditional trans and that they don't have gender dysphoria. They don't feel like they were born the wrong gender. They're just like as a guy and as a not particularly attractive or not particularly wealthy guy. I got dealt a bad hand. Hormone therapy is easy to get access to these days. I'm gonna become a woman. And that's what it is.

45:48With what goal? What's the goal of it? The goal is to get an easier life. I mean, if you've been consuming a fire hose of red pill and migtow content, you know, it can sound like a pretty good idea to a lot of people, I think. Oh, because women have got it so much easier than men do. Therefore, if I become the closest thing that I can to a woman, it's going to fix all of my problem. Okay, fair enough. Well, I mean, yeah, that, that is an approach. And the optional elected vasectomy in your twenties thing, I think sort of sit on the shelf next to each other for, I wouldn't have predicted this on my 2023 bingo card.

46:21But yeah, so just everything that I see, you know, this stop having kids .org who you may be familiar with, like this really serious, anti -nate list movement. Have you ever been the involuntary anti -nate list movement? They want to sterilize the entire population. They're like terrorists. They're just scary people. Wow. And what's the justification for this? I'm going to guess climate. Oh, no. So they're really just negative utilitarians. I think most anti -natalism and for people who aren't familiar with negative utilitarianism, it's the belief that negative emotions are bad, but positive emotions aren't inherently good, or that a human life, negative emotions are more acute than positive emotions, or they're just much higher in volume.

47:06The best example of this that I learned from a friend was imagine that you got to spend the rest of your life in the optimal amount of bliss maxing out your pleasure. compare this to an existence where for the remainder of your life you would spend in maximum torture with as much pain as you can imagine, or let's say that you did one and then did the other would one be worth the other and most people have an inclination that suffering is somehow worse than pain that you are in and then you net out after a human life the what was the what was the group that involuntary and seen at least because of new Yeah, they can be teleitarians.

47:42Yeah. They basically say that a human life is net suffering overall. Therefore, it is morally reprehensible to bring any future life into this world because the net experience is one of pain and torment and displeasure. Yeah. And I actually suspect that when we see this urban monoculture, I've described, begin to really dwindle in size. And the only people who are left are the most extremist was in it. We're going to begin to have to deal with terrorists on that front. and that really scares me. But here's the thing, who's to know we aren't already dealing with terrorists on that front? Look at declining fertility rates around the world today, biological fertility, declining sperm counts throughout the planning testosterone.

48:21Who's to say there isn't something in the water? You know what I mean? You think that someone's purposely doing this? I don't know, man. I would hazard toward Hanlon's razor with stuff like this. Yeah. Like, you know, the incentives align for people to believe that they're doing something which is sympathetic, empathetic, caring, whether it be because of the environment, whether it be, you know, I mean, that the environmental thing is such an interesting argument to me because if you think that a planet that has too many people on it is bad for the planet, wait until you see what a planet that has too few people on it is like, it is, oh well, you know, we existed 200 years ago, there was only half a billion people or a billion people or whatever on the planet, the planet's been fine with this many people on before.

49:09It's like, yeah, but what's the experience of the life like for the people that are on it? What about all of the animals that you want to save? What about all of the interjections that you want to make with regards to controlling the climate to ensuring that all of the different ecosystems that you care about continue? So I've had a lot of pushback about talking about declining birth rates and, you know, whatever you want to say, like dating, sphere adjacent sometimes. Although I'm speaking to the researchers, I'm not, you know, doing a panel show with bunch of different people screaming at them saying that they're going to become loveless harpies in their thirties.

49:40And I know I feel like the criticisms that people have about anybody that brings up declining birth rates either haven't thought about the problems sufficiently well or have a really, really fucking perverse and malicious incentive because anybody that sees a discussion about declining birth rates is anything other than a concern for the future of human lives that haven't yet existed. they're just not philosophically sophisticated. Yeah, I'm totally open. I'm totally open to having the discussion that maybe there is an optimal amount of population that would be great to have on the earth. I think the carrying capacity of the planet is significantly higher than where we're at at the moment.

50:19I agree. And I think that climate mastery and all the rest of it, we have a ton of work to do for a whole host of things. Whether that be AI alignment, whether that be Grey Goo from nanotechnology, but like pick your existential risk of choice, right? But like fuck off, bro, if you think that I'm not going to talk about the most existential of existential risks individually to you. And here's the other thing. So folding this in, a lot of people will have listened to the Steven Shaw episode that I did, which is absolutely fantastic. I really love him as a demographer and a researcher in this world.

50:49And the novel, an interesting insight, the really novel interesting insight that I'm going to kind of add into my world view with regards to this that I've learned from you today is looking at what happens when you roll the clock forward over a longer timeline with which groups are going to continue to survive and which cultures are going to continue to survive. If it's the case that you say that you care about a particular movement continuing to be pushed through the ages because this is something that we should care about, let's say it's reducing the amount of people that are on the planet to risk -rich climate change.

51:26Let's just say Let's just say that it's climate change overall, right? If you have, given the fact that political leaning is 50 % heritable, if you don't have any children, who do you think is going to continue that particular philosophy that you've got? Like you are literally making your ideology a dying breed. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think one of the things that I always think, you know, when you're talking about biodiversity and stuff like this, I always wondered, Like do these people like not think into the future right now from what we know about our planet humans are the only species that can see to new biome We are the only species that can get off planet, right?

52:06So if we see it a new biome in a million and ten million years, it'll be just as rich as our own We could see thousands hundreds of thousands of new biomes if humanity doesn't win through this I have the needle we're about to go through if humanity does die off Well, I mean, everything we know about physics today says the Sun will eventually expand and all life will go extinct. It's in -game. You know, if you care about biodiversity in the long run, humans are critical to maximizing that. And although I will modify one thing, you say, I think that there is a logical argument for negative utilitarianism.

52:46I think there's a logical argument for getting rid of humans. I don't agree with it. these people are against my cultural group, but I don't think that they're just like completely insane either. Do you think it's a moral obligation to have children then with all of this sort of folded together? I think different people have different moral frameworks they're optimizing for. I think if somebody believes that their moral framework should continue to exist into the future, 200, 300 years into the future, like gender equality or something like that, and you don't have kids, you have morally failed.

53:20If you however are just like, no, it doesn't matter if my belief system dies out with me, then whatever, you know, I'm not going to tell you that your morals are wrong because I think that morality is one of those things where I believe that my morals are right. But if I go around trying to police everyone else's morality, I'm just going to have a bad time. So that's that line in the sand is one I've been really interested in playing about with. I absolutely agree that some sort of hand -made -stale future where women are kept in pens like cows so that they can keep the future of the population going is wrong.

53:59Also, telling women that the only way that you can live a fulfilling life is by doing some domestic version of that also is wrong. But I can't see why there isn't any sympathy out there in the world for the reverse of this situation. What about all of the people who were told you don't need to have kids to have a fulfilling life that did want to become mothers that had their preferences nudged in the opposite direction? Break through the fertility window and then grieve for families that they never had. That where is the finger pointing going in the other direction? Because I don't see anybody unironically saying that women need to get out of the boardroom and get back in the bedroom to start producing more children.

54:39Like I think that they're just saying, look, maybe you should think about the current cultural norms that are being pushed and take them with a big spoonful of salt. Yeah, and I think that a lot of statistics women just aren't familiar with things that mean my wife feel a lot more comfortable if you look at studies. Not all studies show this, but a number of them do is that parent households was two working parents. The kids actually performed better academically and have better emotional health than parents with stay at home. It's a small effect. But what I'm saying is that I think that there's this intuition that only the traditional a way of doing things is correct.

55:14And that the truth is, is what is correct is whatever ends up working in the long term for human civilization because nothing is really working right now. And so I just encourage people to, if they think I can't be a mom and in the boardroom, I would encourage you to rethink the way you're structuring your family, rethink the way you're structuring, finding a partner. You know, earlier we were talking about dating markets and one of the things that our foundation is doing because we're working to try to create and promote new types of dating apps, maybe even recreate the London season. Something like that, but the travels between places like the Olympics where you have a bunch of single people go, but there's some rules that make it harder to just have a really low switching cost between partners, which is one of the big problems that we're dealing with right now.

55:59So, with a lot of this, it's about experimenting with new social technologies and understanding that there probably are ways to have it all. much more than I think people want to accept because it requires trying new things and being called a freak by other people. What about people that say it's too expensive to bring a child into this world? Why? Why are poorer people having more kids? If it's an issue of cost, then what you should see as a line, where people have more kids and more money they have, but typically the line goes in the other direction within and between countries until you get to like ludicrous levels of wealth, like half a million dollars a year.

56:34So what I'd say is it's enormously expensive. It is a massive lifestyle sacrifice. It absolutely is a lifestyle sacrifice, but is it too expensive? I think that's the real thing. Is it too expensive? Is it that you can't afford it or is it that you would need to like us? You know, we had to leave a city. We moved to a rural area. We changed the type of jobs we could get because of that. You know, we made a lot of sacrifices to do this. And I understand for families and less socially, economically, advanced positions, they have to make even more sacrifices. But when a family decides they want a lot of kids, they do it.

57:10And I think in addition to that, this is another area, one of the projects that we worked in was Project Eureka, which was a town for like single moms that had kids and other people who had kids and who wanted to co -raise kids. Because there are social technologies we can try. And I would really like to see these commune systems and stuff like that begin to pop up more because I think as an investment prospect, they are a really good long -term investment prospect if you look at the model that I was talking about earlier. The challenges of... The reason that people say it's too expensive to bring a child into this world, I don't think that they're talking about the cost on their finances.

57:47I think they're talking about the cost on their freedom. Oh, yeah. And if you look at the reasons that are given for a lot of non -daters at the moment, for people that are checking out of the dating market, it's just got better things to do, not wanting to lose personal freedom. There's this huge, huge study that was done by Pue. And it just came back that people were just distracted. So what it seems is that if you are more financially enabled, there are more things that you can do with your finances, which means that you can go abroad to Bali. Why not go to Bali for two weeks? Well, if you have the kid, you can't go to Bali for two weeks.

58:24That the girl with a list thing, which you must have seen that came off TikTok, a girl printed out 350 reasons not to have a child and then printed them all on a piece of paper. The reasons ranged from stuff like, child is literally a parasite inside of you to can't wear my cute high heels anymore, can't do brunch on Sundays. Yeah, so I want to get into this, I'm really excited. So there are, I think, two core reasons that people don't have kids within the category that you're talking about here. It's because they're optimizing for their personal happiness. Now, this can be broad satisfaction, contentment, whatever word you want to use.

58:57But it's some sort of emotional optimization, or they're optimizing for their own position within a local status hierarchy. This can be showing off to people on Twitter or whatever, you know, the trips that you're doing or the things that you're doing with your life because you think that these make you better or higher within some group. As soon as you're not optimizing for one of those two things, typically having kids, or I suppose you could say that I'm trying to make the world a better place along some sort of framework like donating to like protecting ecology or something like that. A lot of that loops back to status though.

59:33Yeah, a lot of that loops back to status. So I think what we're going to see, and this is really cool because it's going to change what it means to be human. When people, I mean, even more than the other options people have right now, when Robo sexuality, I always go back to the future, future, all my episodes about this, predicted this. When people can start dating AIs and you can have your deep fake girlfriend and stuff like that. And then eventually people will be able to go into pods and live any virtual reality lifestyle they want. When these sorts of things become possible and they likely will was in my grandkids' lifetime at least, if not our own, pretty much everyone who's optimizing for status or personal pleasure is going to be called from the gene pool.

1:00:11In any cultural group that can't motivate people to optimize for something else is going to be removed from the system and that is going to fundamentally change what it means to be human and likely have a pretty big impact on sort of the human sociological profile in terms of the genetic screening that's going to cause. It's going to nudge the genetic disposition because the only cohorts that are left are going to have a particular type of predisposition. And over time, that's going to, right? Yeah, that's really, really interesting. Because we all have this balance between hedonic pleasure and meaning that we seek in the future.

1:00:47You know, it's most parents. I don't think if you were to test them on a minute by minute basis It's not the most pleasurable thing in the world to raise a child looking at some of the studies that I've seen It's not massively pleasurable, but it's incredibly meaningful and you know There has to be some sort of a spectrum where on one side someone lives for a life that in retrospect They're glad they're lived and on the other side someone lives a life that moment to moment they're happy that they're living and And that spectrum between the two, am I living for a future that's meaning or am I living for a now that's pleasure?

1:01:19Yeah, I'm so excited. Well, I love what you're getting at here, which is how do you balance these two and the really cool thing is that biologically, we're already optimized to have kids. And I think a lot of the unhappiness that comes in society today is that people forget that all of your ancestors had kids. They had sex and they had kids. They're almost all of them dead, right? And so humans are programmed to find genuine contentment and happiness of a deeper kind and a more meaningful kind than they can get from almost anything else, from continuing down the path that had led to our species being successful so far.

1:01:59And I think when you look at a lot of influencers right now, if you look at a lot of unhappiness, they are showing people what people are sort of biologically optimized for right after they go through puberty. Without people realizing that that optimization program changes as you get older. Often there was a joke that I got in trouble for on Twitter, which is to say that I don't know if you know blipping. He's like a blues clue sort of character who dances around, around fire trucks for kids and is like, yeah, I'm driving a fire truck. I'm playing in a dump truck. I'm playing on a playground, you know, and kids are like, all this is the perfect life.

1:02:35Before they go to puberty, they see this. That's what they're optimized for. They're optimized I might as well play an exploration. It's an adult you see this and you're like, oh my god, his life looks parable. I mean, obviously he probably makes a lot of money, but I mean, you wouldn't actually wanna live that way. And I often argue that the androtate is sort of the blippy for teenagers. This is what a teenage boy thinks is the ideal adult life. But to an actual grown man you see this and you can see sort of the deadness with it. It's like, yeah, I have to like, please multiple women a day or they'll leave me and then I won't be able to maintain sort of the thing that I built up and I'm like, oh my god, I can't even imagine like having to just like have a routine of constantly having sex every day so that I can at a base level maintain my economic empire.

1:03:19Um, and but to a young boy, this sounds, oh, that's the best because humans go through a second puberty when they have kids. Your testosterone drops dramatically. You begin to gain happiness from different sources and it's a deeper kind of happiness and with young women it's the same thing. With young women they get told, oh, you're going to love traveling the world, you're going to love a certain point. This stuff just becomes draw, you know? Because you were biologically programmed to want to, now, not everyone is, you know, people's biological programming is a bit different. You know, I could say that on average, human males are biologically programmed to find human females attractive, but obviously not all human males find human females attractive.

1:03:57So if you people don't go through this shift later in life, but when you optimize around the things that give you happiness when you are a teenager and your whole society tells you to optimize around those things, you hit middle age and you're like, why doesn't anything really make me happy anymore? Why aren't video games making me happy anymore? Why aren't the things I used to do? Why aren't these status games not making me happy anymore? And it's because your culture used to tell you, hey, you need to move on to your next stage of life, but you don't have that culture anymore, because you're in this bubble.

1:04:28Going back to what you said about status and how status provides an incentive for people to behave in particular ways, ways that allow them to advertise their fancy trepid bali and brunch and whatever on a Sunday on social media, have you considered a way of reprogramming status for activities so that motherhood becomes pedestrianized again. I hate to say this, but I think for most of the population people are like, oh, why don't you force them to? Like I talk with some people and I like, what about like banning porn or banning, you know, whatever, right? Like with that force people to do this.

1:05:07And it's like, look, or banning social media, right? The cultural groups and people who aren't resistant to the existing pressures in this world that are sterilizing them, unfortunately, they're just kind of a lost cause. What we need to do is we need to find the few groups that have found a way to make themselves resistant to this and sort of nurture them so that they can survive through this period and then end up thriving, which is why we focus on things like trying to. It's not like humans are, well, it depends on you if you're free well, I suppose, but we're not exactly deterministic beings, right?

1:05:41If we're able to nudge the culture in a way to get people to changed their behavior. You know, people, I had Peter Singer on the show yesterday. Peter Singer managed to impact so many people's lives through animal liberation that wouldn't have done that without him nudging them in that way. There is status that was associated with being vegan. Therefore, people started doing it. They were also brought into this philosophy that underpinned it. I'm a club promoter by trade, right? I ran nightclubs from my entire career. And with that, I understand the power of trends and mimesis. And I'm just thinking, at the moment, there is a memetic trend about like motherhoods lame or dangerous or freedom restricting, changing that trend technology seems something that could be quite a high leverage opportunity.

1:06:24Yeah, Delta, you change your mind on this and I'm remembering conversations because this is actually a debate I've had with my wife and she's changed my mind before but I forgot. Which is, I think, well, she would argue a core aspect of our advocacy if we can, is to get it modeled in television shows and in other types of popular media that having lots of kids is a high -status thing. The big fear I have is I'm just really afraid of people having kids because it helps their status. I would like it if it's like a yes and thing, but no matter what, when you make something a status thing, there's going to be a group of kids that are brought into the world only because of the way they augment the parent's status.

1:07:04And that means their parents are going to be narcissists and they're going to be pretty, but you're right. I mean, hopefully we can move culture in a way that doesn't just target the narcissist and then - It's more holistic. So, we're about to get on to talking about another third rail of your approach to embryos screening and genetic selection and stuff. But do you see it almost like, for one of a better word, like a breeding experiment that we have not an experiment but a breeding future that we have with humans. Whether we're going to be particular cohorts that continue, there are going to be particular cohorts that don't, given that a good chunk of our behavior is determined by our genes, the type of people that continue to reproduce will have a particular genetic predisposition, which in the future means that we're going to nudge the entire human races genetic predisposition in one direction.

1:07:57Are we in the middle of a breeding experiment and are humans facing extinction? I'd say it's a cultural experiment because the independent factor that's being changed is culture and the dependent variable that we're measuring is their ability to have kids, so breed, but also maintain those kids within that social group. So if the kids just leave or they don't like their lifestyle as a child, you can't just give a kid a terrible childhood and they're not going to continue that cultural group. And this is actually a really interesting phenomenon here. review look at countries that are poorer but also have really low fertility rates.

1:08:33Typically, the common thing across those countries is that there is very low amounts of hope. This is why China has such a low fertility rate because people within China, this is where we are the last generation meme comes from. They're like, what? Am I just having kids so the government can use them? Like there's no more social mobility here or something like this. And I think it's why when you're looking at a cultural group like Jews in Israel, there's such a high fertility rate, as there is a high level of cultural hope within that cultural group. They feel like when they have kids, they're not just, you know, grids for the grindstone, they can move up within the culture, even if they're in a low status position.

1:09:09So I would agree with everything you're saying, and I'm really excited for this experiment. I imagine that the discussions around climate are just another really panicious sort of If convincing factor about why people shouldn't have kids, not only are you contributing to the burning of fossil fuels, not only are you going to increase greenhouse gases, which are going to kill all of these other animals, but the life that your child is going to have on this planet is also going to be filled with fumes and gray skies, and it's going to be toxic and whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So the incentive is...

1:09:43But this is... I was going to say, this is also just the latest apocalyptic cult in the US. You know, it's not going to be the last one. You know, we keep having, if the US is dotted by anything, it's dotted by sort of apocalypticism and fears. The US actually, Jewish and Christian traditions more generally are dotted by this. And I think the next one we're going to see is AI. Why would you have kids when AI is going to kill us all? You know, it's just a cycle and it keeps going and - You do know that there's people watching this right now that are saying, well what about you two? You two are just saying that it's the birth rate decline apocalypse.

1:10:17You are the same Cassandra is that you're accusing everyone else of me. Well, because I would say that I do argue that things are going to get worse, but I don't argue they're gonna kill us all. I think if you look at real climate change data, it says, which I believe the climate's gonna get worse. A lot of suffering is gonna happen because of it, but it's not gonna kill us all. That climate message hasn't done as well as spreading as Greta Thornberg's and one of your recent podcastes, that everyone's gonna be dead in five years due to the climate. AI is going to massively change what it means to be human.

1:10:50It could even cause some major catastrophes, but it's not going to turn us all into goo. And so I think that there is, it's right to say that we in the world have actual things to be afraid of. There's going to be actual systemic shifts, but I think that's different than just apocalypticism and being like, we're all going to die. No need to think about the future. You know, Harold Camping style, right? Okay, so - The Millerist movement. Getting on to what you did with your children, we've discussed what the world should do, how we should move forward, some of the challenges, some of the reasons that people don't.

1:11:22What is the unique process that you went through with your wife?

1:11:29So this is spicy. What we did is we did full genetic sequencing of our embryos and we used those genetic sequencing to inform the order in which we implanted the embryos. So why did we do this? Well, you have to do biopsies of embryos anyways, often to determine if they're half weight or not. Not everyone does this, but most people do. It's the normal thing you do when you're doing IVF. We had to do IVF anyway because my wife was unable to get pregnant naturally due to, you know, having depression when she was younger, which caused her to develop anorexia, which meant that she doesn't like, mistrate naturally and she actually would, with trans women she often doesn't like competition to see who has to take more hormones to be one.

1:12:13And so, you know, she has to do all of this stuff to have kids. So I had to do IVF anyway. We had to do the biocies anyway. And now is genetic screening data, we could go through that. And her mom died slowly of cancer. And so we were able to look at that. And you know, she suffered from major depressive disorder, which also has genetic links. So we were able to look at these things and say, well, I mean, if we can choose to lower the probability that our kids have to deal with these genetic conditions, like would we lower that probability? Like to me, people are like, yeah, but people will make fun of you on Twitter if you do this.

1:12:45It's like, yeah, okay, my kid comes to me, and they're like, dad, I really, you know, wanna kill myself right now, or I have migraines, that was another thing we selected against. You could have selected against this, and you didn't, because people were gonna make funny, you on Twitter, like, and this is just our cultural group. So people try to connect this with eugenics. But eugenics, the definition of eugenics is very clear. It's the belief that there's good and bad genes and that the good genes should be distributed maximally throughout society, which is sort of the antithesis of what we believe.

1:13:13We believe every family, every cultural unit has beliefs about good and bad genes, right? Like our family doesn't want our kids to get cancer. But that reproductive choice should always be in the hands of individual families, in individual cultural groups, and that it should never be enacted. If anything, I would say that it's eugenics for the government to come and tell my family the genetic choices we should make because it views sort of pure, unaltered human DNA as the superior form of humanity. They're actually saying we need genetic purity in humanity and you're tainting the genetic purity of the human species by selecting things.

1:13:51I don't know, to me that sounds much more eugenic than me being like, I don't want my kids to get cancer. And this is something many cultural groups have done every time. Orthodox Jews have to do this with tastesacks, some black communities have to do this with sickle cell. It's also like an anti -semitic and racist position to call this sort of genetic selection and this sort of reproductive choice, eugenics. So I think that we do support, and I think now here's the thing, that's the nice way to put all of this. But then let's go bigger, go home. Let's be controversial here, right? So what happens if we really hold this position in the future?

1:14:28Well, when we say our foundation's goal is to preserve and increase human diversity, a lot of people miss the and increase human diversity part. Because as soon as families have these choices, a lot of people think families are all going to choose the same thing. You know, like I love it. I think everyone going to choose like a white, you know, a buff child. And it's like, no, didn't know. Like, my families aren't gonna choose like little Aryan kids or something. What are you out of your mind? Everyone's going to choose things that optimize for their cultural traditions, value system. And we're entering into this grand experiment where some of those value systems will prove to be more efficacious than other value systems.

1:15:11Right now people are like, oh, you could select for IQ. We didn't select for IQ, but you could. Theoretically select for IQ. And we might do it in the future. But IQ is such a like a bad metric because we're in the early days of this technology. Eventually IQ will be 80 different things. Are you optimizing for creativity? Are you optimizing for in the same way? And you don't just optimize for strengths. You optimize for agility. You optimize for lean muscle. You optimize for like this type of muscle fiber. Or since this type of muscle fiber. And we will see this blossoming. I hope of human diversity at a level that makes our existing ethnic diversity look right.

1:15:47And subcultures will be very intolerant to this new diversity, but I'm excited for it. I'm excited for it because I think that when we have new perspectives, when we have new ways of doing things and new cultural optimization, we get something more beautiful. And one of the core focuses of our foundation is trying to get the cost of this technology as low as possible. And a lot of people they hear about this technology and they go, oh, it must cost a portion. I mean, theoretically, it doesn't really. You're looking at genome sequencing, which we've gotten tremendously cheap. And then once the genome is sequenced, you're just comparing it to a data table.

1:16:22So right now, if you did this at the state level, it would be tremendously inexpensive to do. And you could do this for like 50 cents a family and maybe like 50 dollars per egg that sequenced. And when you compare this to the cost of IVF, that is like nothing. And many states are already supporting IVF, like the UK, like Israel. So to say that this technology could be widely available is not a irresponsible thing to claim at all and I'm really excited for it. Can you see why some people would feel uncomfortable or feel that this is a controversial technology to start using to be able to select for particular traits that a child would have?

1:17:08Yeah, I mean, I see that when the problem is that it's controversial, except in every specific instance. It's controversial to your selecting that your kids don't get cancer. It's controversial to your selecting that your kids don't get major -depresent disorder. And if you stop me and my kid ended up committing suicide, are you at all to blame for that? Do you take any responsibility? And then people are like, well, this technology isn't full proof. It doesn't 100 % prevent those things. And that's like, you know, one of these religious extremists who don't want to do blood transfusions being for their kid, you know, when their kids dying or something, like, well, blood transfusion doesn't always work.

1:17:42It's like, well, so what? You're giving your kid a chance. When a child comes through it. I mean, smoking during pregnancy doesn't always cause your child to have tons of deformities, but it's probably not advised. Yeah. And I support the cultural groups that don't want to use this. They may be right in the long term, you know? Humanity is an experiment, right? They may be right, I may be wrong, and the future will prove which group is right and wrong. And we might turn out that all of these decisions we're making, they don't end up making any difference, right? And all we're using this technology for Reyna was to order our eggs.

1:18:12Now suppose somebody was like, oh yeah, but I just want to create tons of embryos and choose the best embryos, right? And this is where I think you get the genuine... What do you mean, sorry, what do you mean when you say order your eggs? Oh, it's the choice. It determines the eggs we choose first, but we still hope to use all of our embryos. Not eggs, embryos. But so it's not like we're saying this human gets to exist or this human doesn't get to exist because of their genes, but I mean functionally, eventually, because my wife has a C -section with every pregnancy, they're probably eventually gonna take it out to some extent we are doing that.

1:18:45But I can understand like when people say every human embryo is a life and you shouldn't be playing these games, that's the moral argument against what we're doing that I think holds the most water. The way that I look at that argument is to say, well, IVF generally, which needs, you need to discard some eggs often if you're going to do IVF in any sort of economically sustainable way, it requires you discarding embryos. And it expands the human fertility window. So to me, from my cultural perspective, every human I decide not to have, if somebody was like, OK, pick up this pin and a human doesn't exist in the future, I'll decide not to have a human if you pick up this pin and then I have functionally killed that human.

1:19:25And so I can understand why like Catholic groups and stuff like that would look at what we're doing and say that, well, I think that humanity only starts at like sperm production or at the production of an embryo. And so I get that argument. It's just not my cultural practice. And I hope that they can at least understand the spirit with which we're doing this, which is to maximize the number of offspring we have and increase their quality of life. If all that you're doing is playing around with the order of the embryos that you have, why does the order matter? Well, because we likely won't be able to use all of them.

1:19:57I mean, really. Right, okay, but that's the same, like choosing the order is the same as discarding, right? Yeah, it's probably functionally the same, but I mean, again, I just don't know how I can explain to my kid, oh yeah, you got cancer because I decided not to do this when it was. Well, I had Johnny and Omnely on the show about two months ago and... I love the guy, yeah. Yeah, he really he really sort of opened my eyes to this and the most compelling argument that I heard was as soon as you can see that let's say the testing that some Jewish groups Ashkenazi Jews, I think go through to ensure that they don't partner up with yeah, it's like partner up with somebody that is going to give their child something that's awful, the same thing occurs within other groups and then roll the clock forward a tiny little bit and you say, if we can select to avoid really, really reliably heritable cancer that is just every single woman all the way back for as long as I can research it has always had some form of cancer.

1:20:55As soon as we can select for that to not happen, you open the door to say, well, okay, what's the difference between that and selecting for someone that's a little bit more conscientious because conscientiousness is associated with improved outcomes. in life, what about somebody that's got not going to have depression, what about somebody that's not going to have anxiety, what about somebody that's blah, blah, blah. As soon as you open the door to not having something negative, you also then look start to get into selecting toward positive traits too. Is there a line that gets drawn in the sand for you with regards to this?

1:21:28No, I believe every family should be able to make their own reproductive choices. And when we talk about things like IQ, he's absolutely right. If you look at this really rusted thing we have now. I hope we can break apart into a bunch of different things and get much more specific ways. Right now, I mean, this is correlated with lower rates of rate, lower rates of incarceration, lower rates of, I mean, raping other people, lower rates of murdering other people. Like, there are real reasons why, you know, you may select for this, and I love when people are like, oh, that's unethical. And I'm like, we live in a culture today where it is normal to dope your kids with amphetamines so that they score slightly higher on standardized tests where people do these little things where they're like, what would I give for two points of IQ?

1:22:10And yet the fact that you could make a selection here is off the table, but we also need to consider that eventually other species were gonna have to do this. And this is something that people just aren't talking about. So if you look at, okay, disgenic pressures. So historically, like 50 % of humans died in childhood or early in their life hood or something like that, right? And this prevented a lot of the diseases that we see in our society today, as we get better at things like C -section and keeping kids alive and stuff like that, we're going to see an increasing number of heredible diseases that previously would have been selected out of humanity.

1:22:47So you really only get two choices before every human is just a walking ball of cancer. Either you start selecting humans before they're born, or real three choices, or you start completely editing and writing humans, I think maybe there you can get into even more morality, or you start selecting humans after they're born, or I guess you can just enter this future where everyone's like this walking cancer column of all of these things that previously would have been selected out, but our medical technology, I think that the most ethical choice there, long term, is probably to make these selections before the cells really begin to replicate.

1:23:26In your eyes, is there anything different ethically between rolling the dice of which sperm is going to get there first with which egg at which particular time during the years, bunch of cycles and selecting? Let's say that you were able to do selection somehow that didn't involve discarding eggs because that would be a difference. as far as your concern, is there anything different about parents going out of their way to choose the kind of life, traits, person that is going to come out as opposed to just saying, we roll the dice when it happens, it happens, and with the combination that happens is what the child is going to get.

1:24:11Well, I mean, we as a society have been doing this for a while. I mean, if you consider that sort of thing, you know, eugenics, then not allowing brothers and sisters to as eugenics because you know the reason presumably we have those losses it leads to negative genetic outcomes. Again I just go back to say that reproductive choice should always be at the level of the family. And as soon as the state or an outside force says that a family can make these genetic choices and can't make these genetic choices, that is the core of what eugenics is because you are saying And people born of these genetic choices are somehow genetically morbid or like some sort of monstrosity.

1:24:50And then what do you do? What they're a second -class citizen? I don't know. I just don't think there's any way where you can begin to police family's genetic choices that doesn't turn into the most evil of eugenics. Do you think that there's an ethical difference between selecting embryos and going in there and actually manipulating genes and tinkering with stuff directly. Yeah, I think in a lot of people's mind there is a difference, but I think that again, this should be a cultural choice. I think that every parent should have the choice to make the as always funny when people, they say, oh, he and his wife think that they're like genetically superior.

1:25:28I'm like, we're the ones editing our genes. Like, we think we are the least genetically superior of anyone. We are editing our genes. You're jumping through the hoops to try make them as viable as possible. Yeah exactly. So is one final thing, you know, to tie the two things that we've spoken about today together. A lot of people are told about the miracle that is IVF. There are some concerns I think that maybe women and men are overly reliant on it to believe that it can extend their fertility window out essentially indefinitely. IVG, which may actually end up doing this, maybe we'll see. I'm a fan.

1:26:07You want to talk about what IVG is? Fuck it. Tell everybody what IVG is. And tell them it. Tell them it in a very accessible way, because Johnny taught me it, and I couldn't recite it. So teach it as if you're teaching it to a golden retriever. IVG basically means that you can create eggs and sperm from any human cell. So it means that two gay people could have a kid that's biologically theirs. But it also means you can do fancier things. Like, you could have a poly couple of like 13 people and they could have a kid that is biologically outlawed theirs. It basically allows you to, I mean, in the simplest form, it's just agons for him for anyone.

1:26:43But this is really cool because it means, you know, if you're older, you know, you can have kids that are healthier and a lot of people are having kids when they're older. But then, you know, you can bind this with artificial wounds who we're close on that technology too. That completely, like when we're talking about cultural changes and technological and cultural solutions to technological and cultural problems. A lot of them are gonna look like IBG. A lot of them are gonna look like artificial wounds. What we may find is one of the solutions to the current collapsing birth rates is like gay triads or something like that, right?

1:27:16Or the poly cities. Or like I'm not saying that these things will work, but if any of these sorts of cultural groups want to survive into the future, They're going to have to find ways to make themselves raising kids and keeping their culture alive work. And so I'm very excited to see how these technologies expand options for people and expand the diversity of cultures that are possible because there's many more creative people than me out there who might find even more exciting ways to raise families and increase the cultural diversity of our species. Just going back to the conversation about IVF, for the people that haven't been through it or don't know somebody that has been through it, what's the experience like?

1:28:02It's painful. You should ask my wife, I've seen these shots right into the butt, I don't know how she handles it. And she does this as a routine, we have a kid a year. She wants to keep doing this for like 10 years. I don't, she has a tough, like, um, but in it, it is painful. This woman was a woman who worked through her first pregnancy. She went to the hospital, she was taking sales calls while she was having contractions. Back to work was in five days. The level of pain she felt when getting egg extractions and stuff like that was higher. We're not higher than pregnancy, but I mean, it was hot and you're like, she is not somebody who complains about pain.

1:28:40She doesn't complain about the shots, but the egg extractions they really heard. And I know that because she wouldn't mess around with that stuff. So what I can say is it's a painful process, but if you see kids as like your mandate in life, for me not having kids as the equivalent of suicide or something like that. It's just not an option for me. And I'm glad that my wife, you know, I love if you had her on sometimes. She's a weird woman, but really fun. She's seeing similar to I do. And so it's just not even something we would consider. We're going to do everything we can. And we tried to conceive naturally for like five years.

1:29:15And it just wasn't in the cards. And I think increasingly what families are going to realize is it's really hard to get pregnant these days. Humans are becoming infertile. As a species, we're becoming infertile. And when you look at things like artificial wounds, they may be one of our only shots. Because when I hear women who have these complicated pregnancy, when I hear stillbirth, oh my god, if your wife is carried a kid, or you've carried a kid, when you think of a baby dying in that last trimester, and you know that with stuff like artificial wounds, we can lower the probability of that. It just breaks your heart, and you would want to do anything you can to accelerate the pace of this technology.

1:29:50Malcolm Collins, ladies and gentlemen, dude, I find all of this discussion, a combination of harrowing, inspiring, and interesting. So for the people who want to find out more about the stuff that you do and keep up to date with your work, where should they go? So our book series, a Pragmatist Guide to Skydocrafton Religion, is the most relevant to this conversation. It's on Amazon. It's for $0 .99. The ebook, Twitter accounts, Simone H. Collins, or just, you know, search Simone and Malcolm Collins on Twitter. We have a joint account because I hate using Twitter. And we're recently starting up our YouTube and podcast.

1:30:26We just uploaded the first episode of Starting It Back Up Today, which is the Simone Malcolm Collins based camp. So we're hoping that that's fun. I'd love to have you on some time if we're able to get enough followers to be worse your time. Malcolm, I appreciate you. Thank you.