#647 - Megan Phelps-Roper - How Did Harry Potter Enter The Trans Debate?

29:38We feel that hope for ourselves. But again, that the language of public life is lost the character of generosity. Like we feel like we have to judge people based on who they are right now and the sense that there is no hope for them. And like that, again, to me, that loss is we've lost something real and valuable and good. You know, the epigraph of my book is this line from the great Gads Bay that goes, reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope. And to me, that is just the encapsulation of this idea of grace, right, that the willingness to see other people as being on a journey, and that there there's hope for them to grow and change.

30:22We have that same hope for ourselves and that we can contribute to their lives and their understanding of the world in a way that that could actually help them. So again, the loss of that generosity, I think, is part of what leads to this like incredibly judgmental, condemnatory mindset that I recognize so well from my upbringing. Continuing to track the journey or the propagation I suppose of this worldview, it seems like the impositions on language have really been a flashpoint for a lot of this stuff. That moment when language began, there were proposals to change it, the accusations that it was being perverted or it was being miscarried, that seems to have been something that...

31:08Why do you think that it? Why is language being such an important ground zero for this conversation? Do you mean specifically in sex and gender? Yes. Because it's representing how we see reality, right? That's the whole point. Can we talk in a way? Can we communicate in a way that we can... I mean, so this is why, just imagine for a second, I think we've all seen the video clips of politicians who are fighting over the idea whether men can get pregnant. And when these people are having these public battles, you know, you have the generally, it is the Republicans who are saying, men cannot get pregnant.

31:53And then you have, you know, some somebody, generally a Democrat saying, men can definitely get pregnant. Nobody in this conversation, I think nobody is confused about whether like, but it is females who are getting pregnant. But the battle is over the language, right? And like what we are willing to say, whether we're willing to make these changes and make these accommodations for this very small minority of people. And for some people, like again, it feels like so much is at stake on both sides. They think we are being asked to change or to alter our understanding and our ability to talk about reality.

32:30Like that's almost, excuse me, that's almost exactly what rolling, you know, is saying in episode seven when we talk about that, this question. And, and then on the other side, Again, it feels like I'm trying to think, like, maybe it's a sinked way of putting it, it's like one side thinks this is such a small change that we're asking and it's not that, like, why is this a problem? Why can't you just alter this and accommodate these people? It is just the kind and right thing to do. And the other side is saying, we have to be able to talk about reality. We have to be able to say clearly what is happening, you know, and we shouldn't alter, we shouldn't have to alter how we understand the truth and reality.

33:19And so, yeah, it's like, it's a very kind of frustrating place to be, I think, for people because one side is saying, it's not that big of a deal, just, you know, like, you can think about it, like, think about, like, misgendering or something. Like, like, misgendering is not that big of a deal. Like, why do you take this as such a huge thing? And they're asking, it's not that big of a thing. Why can't you just do it? Do you understand? So like, they both are kind of like minimizing the negativity, like, experienced by the other side. And that's, again, it's a very hard place to be. This has been propagated a lot by journalists, both traditional media and new media as well.

34:00What did the journalists that you spoke to contribute to this discussion? What did they have to say about why this had taken hold so much? I mean, I think one of my really most interesting conversations I had was with this journalist Michelle Goldberg who's been covering this for a long time. I mean, more than a decade, I think, at this point. And the way that she described it was essentially that, again, everybody, everybody, both sides, both the trans people and the quote unquote, TERFs, like JK Rowling, feel very embattled. Like these are people who feel like so much is at stake, right? And again, when that is the case, like it's very hard for people to let go of their pain long enough to hear what the other side is experiencing.

34:51And because I think a lot of people have opted out of the conversation, because of how toxic it is, what you're left with is kind of the people who feel the strongest on both sides and who have taken kind of the hardest lines in the most extreme positions, that like those are the people who those are the voices that you hear. And again, that feedback cycle is incredibly destructive. Feedback feedback feedback in a very strange way as well that if there is an increasing sensitivity on both sides to anybody who seems to see ground to the other as being accused of being whatever or whatever, that causes fewer and fewer people who aren't 100 % absolutely ardent about their view to wait into the topic because unless you're unbelievably compelled to do it, why would you bother to step foot into this absolute cesspool, which creates an incentive to push this out only to the absolute edges?

35:44It's only the people who are the most ardently four or the most ardently against that going to step into this conversation. Because get fucked if you think that the moderate person's going to do it because they're just going to get caught in a turn of cross fight. Yeah. And no exactly. And that it is that exact that's absolutely part of the dynamic that led me to write that letter to JK Rowling. Like there, there has to be a way of articulating these things and and talking to people and hearing what they actually believe. And again, not the most extreme versions of all these positions. Because that's, you know, you essentially get strong, strong and just over and over again.

36:18And yeah, that, you hear so many people articulate that exact thing. Why would I step into this when the stakes are very high? It doesn't seem like it affects me personally. And there is no upside here. There is no upside. Is it? That's a good, an interesting question. Why has this become such a huge issue that is spread across corporations, news commentators, reactionary talking heads, all of that stuff, when it's only an issue that affects 1 % of the population, something like that, a very small number of people compared with this huge, huge amount of attention that's being given to it. What's going on?

37:01I mean, I think it's because it's become a moral flashpoint. Like, it is a discerner. Like, are you on the right side or are you on the wrong side? And when, I think when that is the case, and especially, you know, one of the, um, One of the things that's come up with a lot is essentially with LGBT rights, you know when same -sex marriage was won in this country You know, it's like all these organizations essentially, you know that were that were existing to Try to ensure that that that we we got that right one in this country They still exist and it like LGBT so the tea part of it right like the trans rights essentially was like then the next frontier people saw it as the next frontier like this is just this kind of besieged minority and we need to take care of these people and so I think because people saw that as the natural extensions is the next battle you know it it it has become the flashpoint is the trans rights movement any different to the gay rights movement well that's I mean this is what people are having these kind of major battles over at this point because there are people who say, no, absolutely not, it is the same, the same kind of persecution, the same kinds of arguments are being made against trans people as were made against gay people and bisexual people.

38:25But then you have people on the other side who are saying, no, this is actually fundamentally different. And in fact, this is actually one of the complicating factors that ultimately led me to take on this project because I'm also not immune to the kind of the fear, you know, I mean ultimately. When I first went on this path, my friend anti -mills was the one who called me with this idea for this show a couple of years ago, and you know, I was really interested. I immediately started, you know, researching and, you know, sending all these things like, oh my gosh, you have to include this in the show.

39:00It's really fascinating.

39:09And then when talking to trans people and to, but also, I mean, to gay and lesbian people. And it was really fascinating to hear them describe, I should say, not all of them, but they were describing an element of homophobia in the trans rights movement, which is essentially if you are same sex attracted, if you are a lesbian and you're excluding trans women from your dating pool, then you are transphobic and that there's something wrong with you. And hearing these kinds of things from gay and lesbian people in my life and hearing kind of this anguish, I would say, essentially saying they had fought people like my family, me and my family for a very long time, who had been telling them there's something wrong with you for being same -sex -attracted and now they were getting it very similar kinds of criticism from the progressive left.

40:07And it was so far wrong with you being same sex attracted. There's still something wrong with you being same sex attracted Yeah, what's it's a genital fetishists? Decl fetishists exactly. I mean, and it's you know Obviously like not all trains people feel that way or or or try to you know take those positions But there are you know some who who are but again that's so fascinating like the series is you know We have seven episodes. It's it's you know, like essentially you know about seven hours of material there was so much more. There are so many, like it is one of the most fascinating, incredibly rich topics and the fact that so many people opt out of the conversation because of, oh, and I don't just mean this from a curiosity perspective.

40:50I mean, like real people's real lives are affected by the answers that we will eventually come to in these conversations around sex and gender. And it's like, yeah, I'm still absolutely persuaded that we have to be able to have these conversations as calmly and kindly and civilly as possible because, again, people do feel like so much as it takes, so many really important aspects of who they are and the way that they live their lives. What did the clinicians have to say? When it comes to clinicians, there's a lot of different, you know, kinds of opinions about I think one thing though that is clear from everybody that I spoke to and that includes people like Dr.

41:34Mercy Bowers who is the head of WPath, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. You know, essentially all of them agree that we do not have enough information. There is not enough research. Dr. Bowers told me that I think it was like 80 % of the research that has been done with youth medical transition has been done in the past 10 years. So it's very recent, you know, a lot of these professional associations in other countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, the UK actually just in the past few days, you know, have really pulled back Some of these treatments things like puberty blockers and now they essentially are not going to be using them outside of research context So a lot is changing But I think the kinds of you know concerns that a lot of people had including JK rolling They're not completely unfounded.

42:29Absolutely not. Did you read Time to Think by Hannah Barnes? I have read part of it, yes, and I have seen a lot of her. Everything that she talks about that is exactly the kind of thing that Rowling was worried about. I think a lot of people who are concerned about youth gender transition. I don't know if you've seen Helen Lewis actually had a, I interviewed her in the series. is she will actually be in the epilogue that'll be out later this month. She wrote a thing for the Atlantic, a piece in the Atlantic, and essentially said neither the attempts to compel you transition or to completely ban it.

43:09Neither of those things is the answer is essentially where she comes to. And I think it's a really fascinating argument. Hannah was on the show and for the people that didn't see it, She basically presented, I couldn't believe how carefully she tried, which I thought was very impressive. It's super, super, super gentle, anything where she was out over her skis, where there wasn't evidence she was pushing back against. But she basically said, puberty blockers and the books called Time to Think because that's what puberty blockers were advertised as being, that it just put to pause. It was pause on puberty, get rid of the blockers, and then puberty will rebegin and everything ends up being the same.

43:50But it's an ironic title because it doesn't give you time to think. And there is an unbelievably high percentage of children who go on puberty blockers who end up essentially on a set of train tracks that results in gender reassignment surgery in their late teens. And, you know, there is an interesting question, are these young children mentally disturbed because they're trans, or they're trans because they're mentally disturbed? How many people that are suffering with autism spectrum disorder, with obsessive -compulsive disorder, with a number of other issues, are coping with them, especially as a girl, because it increases rapidly, rapidly occurring in F to M as opposed to M to F.

44:36I'm now a girl. I am being seen as a sexual object by my peers. I wasn't previously my body is changing. This is scary I don't know what's going on. I have more than ever comparative Views of what femininity is supposed to be on the internet whether that be hypersexualized or whether that be like inverse or Reverse mimis is negative mimis is of being a tomboy and maybe I don't fit into this and maybe I've got autism spectrum disorder So I'm already not very lady -like it. Maybe I'm just a boy or maybe I just want to take time but that time to think isn't time to think. It's time on a set of train tracks that ends up with you getting into transitioning.

45:11And yeah, it's pretty scary. And, you know, I'm not going to get any more, but the gender identity thingy service at the Tavis .clinic didn't do a good job. Yeah, I mean, that's Dr. Erica Anderson, who I also interviewed for the show. Each of these things, it's a very individualized. Like, we have to be able to look and examine and and have each of these young people actually be examined and go through a, I think, what you call it, a bio -psychosocial profile or I think it's what she called it. And places like, you know, the gender identity service at Tabestock were overwhelmed, essentially, with patients and not really following those protocols.

45:56I think it's one of the findings of the CAS report. So, you know, in the absence of those things. But I mean, I should say, though, too, I interviewed this wonderful trans boy named Noah, who had top surgery as a 16 -year -old. I interviewed him shortly after he turned 17, and he's an incredibly smart, emotionally intelligent. Like, if you listen to that, like, you know, he is somebody who really, deeply, like, I think one, he definitely got care that was much better than kind of what was described at the Tabestock. But also, again, just an incredibly smart and emotionally intelligent person who really wrestled with all of the potential consequences, thought about what if I eventually come to detransition.

46:42And when I asked him about that, he basically said, if I eventually decide to detransition, I will have lived to regret my transition. Like he basically was saying if he had not transitioned, he would have committed suicide. So, you know, it's an incredibly complicated set of circumstances and I really feel for the parents who are trying to figure out like what is the best way forward. And it's in, you also hear one of the criticisms that we got from people in the show is, you know, why didn't we talk to a D -transitioner? But then you also have people who wish we would have talked to somebody who was not allowed to transition as a minor who didn't have the kind of, you know, a trans person who did not have the kind of support that Noah had from his parents.

47:32And essentially we're forced to go through what they describe as the wrong puberty. So, you know, a trans girl who was forced through male puberty because they didn't get treatment. And now, as an adult, has to kind of undo all of those things. and it's like I said, it's a really complicated and it's a really complicated thing to try to figure out from a policy perspective, what is the right way? What is the right thing to do? And even more complicated from a publishing perspective on how to say these things without putting your foot on some sort of trip wire for one side or the other. Ultimately, I think when it comes to the conversation, which is, you know, there are a number of different layers to what you're talking about.

48:12about the history of why this has come from, the implication for why it is happening, the experience of the people that are going through it, the consequences for society and for other groups who are affected by the people who go through it, the conversation and why that's become so polarized, you know, it doesn't matter how terminally online you are, even if it's as much as me or you with regards to this kind of an issue, there are so many unseen holes in the floor that you can just stick your foot through. But you did spend a good bit of time on the show talking to critics of Jacob Rowling talking to activists from the LGBT movement, etc., etc.

48:53What did you learn from spending time with them? Because I think at least as far as I can see A lot of people are very familiar with the pushback with the well -meaning pushback especially against these sorts of policies. It is pretty self -evident why biological men invading women's spaces, whether they be bathrooms or prisons or psych wards or hospitals or whatever, could cause complications downhill. What were your eyes open to when you spoke to critics of Jekyll Rowling? Well, when I talk to Natalie and Noah, are the two primary critics we actually featured in the show? because I really felt like their description, their ability to I think help people understand where they're coming from.

49:43Because you, again, online, you get a lot of this kind of very, it seems like hyperbolic, overstated, and you can really hear the pain, you know, frankly, from people like Natalie and Noah. They don't, and again, Noah especially, he basically was saying he didn't want JK Rowling to not express her opinions, her concerns, over all the things that we just described. The youth, you know, youth medical transition, you know, children transitioning to young before they have a real ability to understand the permanent in many cases changes that they are making to their bodies. So it's not that they, you know, think that her, they basically think that she's not engaging in good faith.

50:30That's what Natalie said. And then with Noah, again, basically saying the story that is told, because she has such a massive platform, and because she has been the victim of this kind of, again, overstated hyperbolic, the threats and things that she has received have been highly publicized. And basically she was saying, I mean, sorry, basically Noah was saying that those things are true and they're real, but they essentially take the focus off of the fact that trans people are highly marginalized. They are often excluded from society. They are treated like outcasts in many situations. Many people don't have, again, Noah's, the support that Noah has from his family, from his parents.

51:17And so, you know, as Natalie was saying, these people are cast out by their families, cast out by society, targeted by the government, you know, they're a healthcare being banned and in some cases criminalized. The fact that rolling essentially takes up so much air in that conversation, even though the things that are being said about her are true, they are essentially giving a view of something that is of the situation that is false. Does that make sense? because the scale is not fairly, something makes sense. Yeah, it does. I'm thinking about how even within that, even within JK Rowling's contribution to this conversation, even that's multilayered, right?

52:02So her concern about some of the extreme and dangerous implications of self -idee of many women's spaces, biological many women's spaces, et cetera, et cetera. That captures a portion of the conversation which I'm going to guess that contra points and and Noah don't you know a biological man who hasn't gone through who doesn't have gender dysphoria who hasn't decided that they're going to try and make any effort to transition something tells me that neither of them would say yes to that too because that That makes their own case for legitimate trans people weaker. Or at least it's not going to be the first thing that they're going to charge out of the gates trying to get.

52:48They're going to try and help people that they think are genuinely suffering and could do with some treatments that are going to assist them. But because that's what JK Rowling has kind of captured as part of the conversation. And then the backlash to JK Rowling, which has been from the more militant part of the LGBT movement, also captures and jades both sides. it riles up the opposition and says, see, I thought you were supposed to be for tolerance and inclusion. This is complete rank hypocrisy or evidently, you evidently don't care about this thing. And then that bad mouth is the people on their own side because I think, no, they don't represent us.

53:21And yeah, it's the ever escalating echo chamber incentive causes people on both sides to misrepresent both their own and each others. And it's that sort of recursive antagonism that ever, ever worse and to nascalates. Yeah, I mean, and again, this is exactly exactly the kind of situation that I was seeing when I wrote that letter to rolling. Like there just has to be a better way. And I really think that we, you know, you described all the landmines that it's very easy to step in completely unwittingly, just based on the terminology that you use. And so, I mean, it's really wild actually how much time we spent trying to get the language so that it is intelligible, right?

54:01Because even for people, like to say trans women, a lot of people, even, you know, like I would say like lefty people that I know, you say trans women and they would say like, oh, is that a man who wants to be a one or a woman who wants to be a man? Like, I mean, it is very hard to parse a lot of this language because sex and gender are so kind of central to our understanding of the world. And so, so yeah, like trying to figure out exactly how to speak in such a way that you are intelligible, but also not showing that you are, you know, have your thumb on the scale for one side or the other. It is quite, and this is again, one of the many reasons that many people opt out entirely.

54:42Did contra points do that video with the same title before or after you spoke to them? After. Yeah. How do you feel about that video? I mean, I am really, I really wish I could have talked to Natalie again, because I really, really like Natalie. I watched that video that she made, the witch trials of JK Rowling. And, I mean, honestly, for several weeks beforehand, she was teasing that she was working on a video and I was really, I was like, oh God, it's going to be about us. And I, you know, I mean, I will say though, like, as I watched the video, there was that there were a lot of things that I was, you know, I'm really trying to, you know, follow, follow her argument and try to understand where she's coming from.

55:27And obviously I hate the fact that she regrets talking to us because I think we really, so many people see episode six that features her so heavily. Like that was really challenging, I think, for a lot of people who thought they were just, essentially unquestioningly on JK rolling side. And the kind of, you know, she just, I think represented herself really, really well in that conversation. I mean, it was really powerful. But when I was watching the video that she made after the fact, you know, there were several things that really stuck out to me and I'll just like go into one of them maybe right now.

56:03She was describing this anti gay activist named Anita Bryant in the video. And what she said was, Anita Bryant, like she's basically attacking my, you know, my view that as I was saying earlier, that having civil conversation opened dialogue with people who think differently than you. That is the way forward to my mind. I think it is the most effective way to change hearts and minds and find a way forward when we live in a pluralistic society. So that's the idea of mine that I think that she's attacking in this part of the video. And one of the things that she said was, JK Rowling, I'm sorry, I need a Bryant, didn't need to be persuaded.

56:44She needed to be defeated. And that really stuck with me because I was thinking like, But what does that mean? What does it mean for a native Bryant to be defeated? I mean, I think what it means is that it's for her ideas to be defeated, right? And what does that mean? It means that people are persuaded that her ideas are wrong. So it still comes down to persuasion. We still have to engage with these ideas, particularly ones, as I was saying earlier, particularly these ones that are so mainstream, extreme that so many people share. And if we don't engage with those ideas, I don't know how, how will she win?

57:23I guess is my question. And the really interesting thing is that Natalie herself says this in the series. Realistically, that is the trajectory. Like how, you know, same sex marriage was won because gay people came out to their family and friends and said, you know, we are not groomers. We're not trying to like, you know, indoctrinate your children. and we're not trying to, you know, turn them gay. Like, we're just people who happen to love people of the same sex. So, yeah, that was one of the things for me watching Natalie's videos. Like, I actually don't think that we are so much at odds when it comes to exactly how, and how to move forward from all of this.

58:00I wonder whether or how much of that could have been silenced, would have been like defeated is another way to have said and that would have just been not given a platform at all. I don't know. I understand why it's... She wasn't advocating that in the series though. I mean, I'm sorry, she wasn't advocating that in the video though. She was adding that. I just don't understand how you square the circle of allowing somebody to speak, but also saying that it was wrong to let them speak. Like if defeated means ideas defeated, but you can't hear the ideas, how are you supposed to defeat them? Right, I mean, again, in her video, she was describing a lot of particular things that gay activists, gay and lesbian activists did in the 70s and 80s.

58:47You know, they put Anita Bryant's face on toilet paper and they made fun of her and she kept going back to this moment where somebody smashed a banana cream pie into Anita Bryant's face during this live TV interview or whatever. And she keeps going back to that moment and I'm just saying, it's like she's saying that But I like my position is never make fun of people. Never, you know, you should never, you know, show that you are angry, disgusted. Now, I never said any of those things. What I said was that I think that the most compelling, the most effective way to create change is to engage, to really engage with the ideas, right?

59:27Civil conversation that makes where people feel like their ideas are being heard and addressed. again, like this is something that completely changed the structure of my life. And I was absolutely, I was so hardcore. I mean, I was raising it from the age of five. And in spite of myself and in spite of every intention that I had of, you know, preaching this message and certainly I was never going to change my mind about any of it. And in spite of all those things, the power of civil conversation, again, and changed the course of my life. And it meant that I lost my family. I mean, I left, you know, I left everything that I and everyone that I knew and loved as a result of those conversations.

1:00:11And I don't think that I am unique. I think that when people, when you engage with what they actually believe and actually, you know, treat them like a human being, it, I don't think that the way that I responded was like I said, I don't think that was unique. I think I responded in a very human way to people who treated me like a human being. I've got a quote from a friend here that says, when punishment for what people say becomes widespread, people stop saying what they really think and instead say whatever is needed to thrive in the social environment, thus limits on speech, become limits on sincerity.

1:00:50And it's the reason that censorship doesn't work fundamentally, that you don't actually change people's minds. You just drive those opinions underground. And yeah, it's got to the stage now where two things, perhaps, one being that we must win at any cost, whichever side you are from, suggest that if you can create an asymmetric battlefield by censoring the other side whilst allowing yours, that gives you a particular advantage. And the other one being that there is sort of a generalized risk of ocean moment anyway. The three out of 10 gen Zedders support the installation of cameras inside the home to surveil for wrongdoing that just came up from the Kato Institute last week, which again, if you have got into a routine of giving up your privacy on the internet in return for access to Google or YouTube or whatever, then what really is the difference between doing that in the online world and doing that in real life.

1:01:51It's not all that different, right? The lines begin to get blurred for the person that's been natively online since the age of whenever they can remember being alive. So I wonder whether protecting people from bad opinions, protecting people from dangerous ideas, which I'm sure both sides, you know, use during this discussion. I wonder whether that contributes a little bit to, you know, the ideas should be defeated. It's a strange I didn't realize that you didn't know that that video was going to come out until after you guys had spoken and all the rest of it that must have been yeah difficult.

1:02:27Yeah, I mean, I like I said I really like Natalie and I think you know I watched you know some of her videos and I learned I mean her cancel culture video like she even described like this witch hunt impulse and I think there's a lot of things that she that she says but you know I also recognize you know she she disavowed the series. even before the video, like basically, you know, from the very, before a single episode actually had come out. Yeah, before the video, but also before you had released anything. Yes, exactly. Presumably at that time, all that was known about what you were going to publish was what you had spoken about during your conversation.

1:03:05But did you during the conversation? Did you think like it had gone badly? No, I mean, no, I mean, like it was quite long. I mean, this was like, I think it was like a, shortly before I gave birth. I think there was a lot of... In a fever dream. But no, I mean like I said, I really like her. I thought it was a really good conversation. It was really interesting. And I was really grateful. I mean I remain grateful because I think the inclusion of her voice in the series is such a... It is exactly the kind of thing that I think is missing so much. like it's a very thoughtful, considered critique, not again this kind of hyperbolic, very loud or threatening.

1:03:50And she wasn't, you know, attempting to shut down the conversation. Which I think is given that she's disavowed it after it happened. Does that change your opinion at all? I, it's really funny because like I, I, I, I've really tried hard to understand where she's coming from. And I think, but I do think part of, part of it is the dynamic that you just described. And actually she described in the series, you know, this sense of a lot of trans people, you know, rely on other trans people for support. And I think she saw that people in her community saw our show, even before, even before a single episode had aired, as they knew what the show was going to say.

1:04:33They were sure that it wasn't going to be what they wanted. And so it became a target it immediately. And so I think maybe in part she was responding to that, I think in part she was probably responding to an understandable misreading of the title. But again, I really feel like I actually don't think we are that far off, actually. Even watching that video, I still really like her. I still really disagree with some of the points that she made there. But again, we live in a pluralistic society. I'm very glad that she has the ability to describe her disagreement and then that I can respond. It seems to me from the conversations I've heard with you previously and today and the show as well that you're doing an awful lot of work, almost twisting yourself inside out in a desperate attempt to be as unbiased as you can, to be able to do all of these things.

1:05:27Despite the fact that nobody, everyone can agree on, it's not that easy to step through this mind field without triggering one of the tripwires on either side, right? So the amount of effort that you've had to go through, I don't know, the same with Hannah Barnes. Hannah Barnes was like almost offensively delicate with the way that she spoke when she came on the show. It was outrageous how softly she was treading. We were with the evidence would suggest. It seems the so on and so on. So I don't know. I mean, you know, spent enough time watching stuff on the internet to know when somebody has an ulterior motive and it doesn't seem to me like you all or her do.

1:06:08And especially given the background that you're coming from, which is open and honest communication on the internet, saved you and brought you into a life which you now very much appreciate and value. And imagine the kind of knots they taught. I mean, like Westboro by almost any view of what we were doing at the church, you know, people saw us as inhumanly cruel and just absolutely monsters essentially. And the people who took the time in spite of all of that. Sometimes I go back and look at old videos of myself and you should see the way I used to communicate. I mean, this is kind of just the condescension and the arrogance and just again, horribly cruel things that I would say.

1:06:56the fact that people were able to look past that and recognize that I was a human being who was the product of my upbringing and their willingness to, you know, as you said, tie themselves in knots to try to show me that kind of grace. I mean, like, I absolutely feel an obligation to do that as much as possible. I mean, like, the show could have been a lot of different things, but really I think what it is an attempt to do is to really understand where people are coming from in as good faith as possible. Because again, unless people really feel heard and understood, I don't think the willingness to listen is obviously a lot less.

1:07:41But then also, you have to be able to wrestle with the very best arguments on the other side. And if you're going to find a way forward, and that's really what I hope ultimately, this is one step down that path. How much backlash have you faced since it's come out? Some, but honestly much less than I anticipated. Like when we started this two years ago, I was pretty terrified that how that was going to go. But I mean, honestly, Natalie's criticism is the one that like I think hurts the most. Because like I said, we really, really tried to do justice to her position. And I think we succeeded again based on the kind of response we got from a lot of people.

1:08:30So it hasn't been that bad actually. And it's actually been pretty incredible to hear from a lot people, including a lot of trans people who see the series as a real attempt at being even handed, a real attempt at helping people understand each other. And I mean, honestly, one of the earliest responses I got was from an employee at a diversity center who was like, oh my god, we need this conversation so badly. Essentially, again, seeing, I don't think we weren't trying to litigate the issues in this series. I don't think I'm the person to do that. I don't think I'm qualified to do that. But again, even that, like the willingness of people to listen, to really hear the other side, and to wrestle with the best versions of their arguments instead of these straw men that seem to come up so much on social media, I don't know.

1:09:24I feel a lot of hope, a lot of hope. What do you think about what is a woman, Matt Walsh, who's documentary? Because they released that on Twitter a couple of weeks ago. And I saw online that that is now potentially the most watched documentary in human history because of how much it got signal boosted in the space of four days, which is insane. But have you, did you speak to anybody about that? Have you, you know, you're somebody that is absolutely knee deep in this conversation, doing something that's not like ridiculously dissimilar, finding out what's going on, broadly asking questions, although maybe with less of an agenda than Matt Walsh had, what did you learn from people about that or what have your reflections been on how that contributes to the conversation?

1:10:13It's been a while since I saw it. I mean, there were definitely some moments, I think, some clips that were on, this was like a year ago. I honestly haven't been. I was, but yeah, I mean, I remember seeing those clips about a year ago. I think actually when I was flying home from that first set of interviews with JK Rowling. And I think, so it's really interesting for it, he's asking them to articulate their worldview and in some ways, some of it seems like it can be pretty incomprehensible for, especially for the uninitiated, I think. And you can win cheap points that way, but I think, again, for me, we could have done something like that.

1:10:57We could have, but the point isn't to make it harder to understand. It's again, to present the very best versions of their arguments and what they're trying to achieve and how they understand the world and make that comprehensible to the other side. If you're only talking to people who already agree with you, there will be no progress. And so I mean, I just, I understand where he was coming from. I do think he was mostly talking to his own side. And, you know, again, I understand I think why he would do something like that, but it's not the kind of thing that I want to engage in because I really do aim for mutual comprehension instead of mutual antagonism.

1:11:41What do you think the future of this discussion has in store? You might not have a crystal ball and divinity is apparently some form of a cult which crafted in any case. But yeah, what do you think is going to happen? Does the volume get turned up? Get turned down? I think it's, like I said, I do feel a lot of hope. I think, I mean, even over the past few months, there's been quite a bit of change. There's, I think, more, I mean, I don't think it's going to be like a straightforward trajectory where everything suddenly gets better and people are able to understand each other and, and, you know, suddenly, you know, willing and able to talk to each other.

1:12:16But I, I do see already a change in the public conversation and the ability to say more honestly what you actually think I think fewer people are opting out. I still think it's probably too many or self -sensoring but I do hear more people willing to ask the questions in good faith and to really try to engage. And again for me that represents hope because that's I do believe that that is the way forward. Have you spoken to JK Okay, since the series came out. I actually have not, but I will be interested to hear what she thinks. I do know that she hates the sound of her own voice, so I don't know.

1:12:55She might have skipped all of the episodes of the bits that have got her in. Yeah. Well, say it. Megan Feltzer open, ladies and gentlemen, I really appreciate the work that you've done to be an incredibly effortful task to do and probably one that largely carried an awful lot of personal risk. So I very much appreciate the fact that you decided to step into this. if people want to keep up to date and check out most of why should they go and when's the apolog out? Um, I think the apolog should be out in a couple of weeks. It's taken a little longer than I expected because I did finally take maternity leave after my baby was born.

1:13:26Why is it just as nice? But yeah, I don't know, keep up with me. I'm on Twitter. I've actually been, yeah, how am I gosh, what do I even say? What do I say, Chris? I'm on Twitter at Megan Phelps and on Instagram at Megan Marie.