#658 - George TheTinMen - Why Do The Left Not Care About Men’s Problems?

26:46Yeah, yeah, yeah. The funny thing is I put that into a post a long ago, where I talked about the indoctrination of boys. We talk a lot about how Andrew Tate is indoctrinated boys and in a lot of ways he has. I didn't support Andrew Tate in the least, but we haven't also talked about how there are organizations that are going into schools right now to indoctrinate boys, educate them, just like Andrew Tate, but to educate them that they are violent rapists in waiting. and that John Barry research you're talking about, I put that in, it was like a percentage of boys that have been introduced to the concept of men being bad for society and the percentage of boys being told about toxic masculinity at like 10 years old and it was really, really high and the reason why I don't know the actual stats, it's because that slide was actually deleted by Instagram.

27:33Somehow that slide got reported and deleted and I was like there's nothing wrong about slides so it's a really great example of like, I can't. You don't get to talk about that. Tell you what shows associated story. You might have seen I put a reel up maybe a month ago talking about the fact that I'd once recorded a podcast with Andrew Tate but never released it. I was talking about the fact that I'd had the opportunity to, I recorded it maybe three years ago when he was relatively small and then I could have re -released it or I could have released it the first time. At the height of his fame it would have got millions of plays.

28:06Everybody in the comments, a couple of things. First off, everybody in the comments was saying, this is your morality standing on the shoulders of sort of a high horse here. Like I didn't need to know about the fact that you can city yourself. Virtuous, well, if I had released it three years after a very bombastic guy was talking in the middle of a global pandemic, I would have also been accused of hangar mate, you've stitched him up. He didn't believe this anymore. And it would have been harsh on Andrew. I did most of the reason that I didn't release that a couple of years later is it's a This shit thing to do to someone who was making claims when there was a lot of unknowns and now there are knowns and you can prove you can prove false a lot of the claims that he was making.

28:46It's just a bad thing to do. I don't care who he is or what you think about him. You don't stitch somebody up with a three year old video. Anyway, that was the first thing. Second thing, Instagram took that down. Instagram deleted it and it had two seconds of him saying hello, good to be here. that was it. He fixed it in a video for, so that is how tight they are on a number of topics, especially around boys and men. So the thing that I've got in my head, you know, we've got this individual element here, whether it be suicidality, homelessness, education, relationship breakdown. Looking at a bit of a more macro level, why do you think people get angry if you start to discuss the basic truth that boys and men face disadvantages?

29:35Have you ever liked how it wear, you spend the whole day out in town, you walk around meeting friends, you know, gone a date or go to a dinner and you get home and you've had like food stuck between your teeth all day and it's like embarrassing. That is what I think is going on on the left where they've bagged themselves quite literally bought the t -shirt about their political ideas, they've bagged themselves and made their political beliefs a fundamental part of who they are. Some people's jobs are quite literally dependent on certain political philosophies and theories being true And people will fight to the death to defend them.

30:09They'll look in the mirror and be like oh Oh, no, and they'll get angry at everyone else. I'll tell you them and I feel like to overcome that Identity crisis where your community your friends your job your lifestyle is all built around a certain set of ideas If something comes along that challenges ideas is it's a very difficult thing to change. It's like changing your skin, you can't really do it. So which is why I try not to identify with any political movement, neither M or A or Feminism, I try to identify as George. And George is a constantly shifting selection of ideas that I'm able to bring in, take out, as and when I choose.

30:48I'm not sort of confined to my community. I know there's a, I can't name him, I can't remember who said it, but he was saying how, He's a psychologist and he talked about how opinions don't exist and they say it exists in someone's skull, they exist in a community. It's like a shared belief that a community has. It's not like in someone's mind. So the change in someone's mind, do you either have to disassociate yourself from that community and lose friends, family in a way that I described earlier? Or you have to change the mind of the entire community. That's how you change someone's mind and they're both extremely hard things to do, especially you want to talk about very important issues like domestic and sexual violence where sadly a huge amount of men and women have personal experiences of that.

31:30And I genuinely try to understand like when people hate men, I try to understand what has happened to that person for them to hate men so much. When I say the same principle applies and I look at violent men, I don't just see them as an end product of violence. I also try to looking to what are they experienced? So they've become this way. I truly believe that the vast majority of people are not born bad. They've become bad from their experiences in their environment. So I tried to ask, challenge people to ask themselves, what's the journey as that man been on? And in the same way, the angry, the angry people I get in my comments and DMs, I tried to ask, like, what have you experienced at the hands of men that has made you hate them so much?

32:12I tried to apologize. I'm sorry, whatever happened to you happened. and I hope you give a second chance. But do you think that most people who do hold those beliefs have had first -hand personal experience of being mistreated by men, or do you think that they see a culture online that praises and raises up people who push back against men? As far as I can see, it's way more that, mimetic, I am holding a belief that is currently politically popular to hold, which is to, I'm gonna stand up for the, for the dispossessed groups and I will ignore information that suggests that a group which isn't commonly seen as being dispossessed actually might be, therefore, men bad women good, white bad, black good, immigrants like good.

33:03Just think that's not easier. If I had a catchphrase, it would be treat the issue not the gender. Just look at the issue and if that issue impacts 80 % of women, then 80 % of the benefits will go to women, but we need to look at the issue and not see just genders. If you look at domestic violence, even in the most conservative estimates, one in three victims is a man and yet there is virtually no way for men to go. So one in three victims at one percent of refugees for men and that is not acceptable. If I were to say there was group of survivors who make up one in three victims and they are systematically shut out of refugees.

33:42People would lose their mind. I tried that all the time. I'm like, if you look at homeless people, 90 % of deaths are of one type of group and people get outraged, upset, and then you reveal it's men. And then again, they're confronted the same sense of dissonance. But I don't know, it's just a lot, it's just a lot to overcome for some people. And I don't think people are willing to put in the effort. Like it's too much part of their life. And it's a shame. It seems to me, I learned this originally from Destiny, but I know that you kind of hold a similar belief here, which is that one of the reasons that the right has dominated the conversation with men so much is because it's largely being evacuated by the light.

34:29That you don't get to tell men that they are a problem or have a problem or need to do better and not hold up any potential role models for them to step into. You have to provide a positive inspirational, aspirational view for what men could become and that has almost exclusively being dominated by the right. And you know, for every single person, every single person, I don't care who you are that says, I have a problem with Andri Tate. I have a problem with Jordan Peterson. Okay. Who do you suggest instead? And I asked the guy who you helped me prep for that debate that I did in Qatar. He came out and they played this video that was like a bunch of individuals, famous individuals that might be accused of being toxically masculine in one form or another.

35:23The first one was my logianopolis. I was like, look, if you've brought me here to defend fucking my logianopolis, I'm on the wrong show. Yeah. Gordon Peterson, Joe Rogan, the usual David Goggins, the usual crowd. And I was like, okay, I understand my interlocutor. I understand that you have a problem with the people that have just been held up as potential role models for men. And please tell me who you would suggest instead. And it took 10 minutes in front of a, sorry, 10 seconds in front of a live audience of silence for him to say, my brother -in -law. And I was like, how about somebody that we all know?

36:00And it was, I didn't mean to be mean, but I think it was a really important moment that showed if you are from the left, it is really hard to find a positive image for what men could and should be. It's just it goes back to what you said before if women have a problem We say what can we do to fix society if men have a problem? We say what should men do to fix themselves? Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, quoting all my work now. Thank you Yeah, I feel like it's I would say a better example is like an example of a masculine man Like there's often an example. It's often certain role models by left of men But I'd say they don't I wouldn't say they're traditionally masculine in the way they present themselves The strange thing is that the things that define masculinity, we do celebrate them, but in women, so when a woman is like confident and loud in your face and they go get her in a boss and you know, we love that.

36:54And quite rightly so, but if you say, oh yeah, man, confident they go getting fierce in a fighter, it's like, oh no, we don't like that, toxic, toxic, toxic. And it's a shame because we just don't seem to be benefactors of the lessons of history because this isn't the first time we've pathologised agenda. Like, I, part of me thinks that toxic masculinity is just a modern equivalent of female hysteria, where we take female distress and we pathologise it as something to be treated. So, that's wrong inside of them, and we subject them to this, this, this, this, this, this crazy sort of experiments to, to fix the problem.

37:30And we're doing the same now. We see masculinity as a, as a problem to be fixed. And we're subjecting men to the same bogus sort of corrective therapies, like the new masculinity workshops sort of presented like new masculinity workshops are like really, really expensive workshops that are about curing men of their masculinity that extraordinarily expensive and entirely ineffective. They're done by just really just Instagrammers who have done like a six week course on some more of a and that thinks they're a therapist, a therapeutic coach, I think you have the call themselves. And it's basically about correcting the problems of masculinity.

38:06It's the same thing we subjected women to, like 50 or 60 years ago for the so -called... What's the female history? I don't know the story about that. So female hysteria was basically a phenomenon that looked up women's distress and it basically pathologized it as a problem to be solved. I think, I mean, I think it was part of it Yeah, yeah, more masturbate more and it'll get more to the stereo more to marry Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure that there are many women are like very very hysterical all the time I feel like I need this treatment. Well, I can't hurt to try And you see this if you google it you see the same these black and white photos of women in sort of court Being experimented on and it's it's horrific and I feel like we pathologized female distress Instead of listening to it you pathologized it as something else wrong in them and I just I feel the same about toxic masculinity I feel like the frustrating thing is that the people that disagree with me often don't realise that the thing we disagree on is semantics.

39:07Because I do believe there are problems within men, there are violent men, there are men are very aggressive competitive, that are not great at expressing their feelings. Those are the problems that I agree exist that are so -called toxic masculinity. But I feel like toxic masculinity as a term takes the problem and stuffs into men's heads and this is your problem. And if you want to solve it, only you can solve it. Rather than saying it's just as a societal issue. So I mean, I would say toxic attitudes towards men, or toxic attitudes towards masculinity, which all of society is guilty of perpetuating, including women.

39:41And I feel like toxic masculinity, you just again, confines a problem to men's heads. It sort of takes a problem and puts men into men's heads. And it's like the opposite patriarch you wear. It sort of puts men inside of the problem. So patriarchy puts men inside of the problem, toxic masculinity puts the problem inside of men. And whatever it is, it's like this is your problem. And like for political movement, that's all about accountability. It's like, well, aren't we all accountable for what's happening to men? Like what about the way we value men or sort of dating standards that men are held to?

40:14Are they not? And they're not part of it. There's a really great study by a child psychologist and Canada called Crystal Thompson. And she found that it was actually mothers who were perpetuating harmful gender stereotypes up some to their children. Men, the fathers didn't really care either way, but it was often the mother. And then like that's it. So they did basically a IAT test, I think it is, where you're looking at different images of girls and boys exhibiting different behaviors. And it basically measures the response of mothers and fathers to the different expressions of emotion. So a boy crying, for example.

40:50And it found that the mothers were a lot more disapproving of like things like boys crying, so boys breaking the gender stereotypes. And, uh, and it's found that surprisingly farthest didn't seem to have really any sort of preference of your way. Why do you think that is? Why do you think there's a sex difference there?

41:13I mean, it could simply be that mothers spend more time with children. Uh, I honestly don't know. I don't, I wouldn't want to comment on something I'm not, not, not calm. Get out over your skis, George. Let's get some more. Let me give you one. Let me give you one. Let me give you one from me. So there's something called the sexy Sun hypothesis and In it. Look already. Yeah, in it suggests basically that what women are trying to do is find fathers that are going to give them attractive Suns because attractive sons are more likely to have kids right I think that what you see here is Maybe an inbuilt biological mechanism that women have which is a predisposition to make their sons attractive to future women and they have deep down and understanding that the more prestigious and domineering men on average have better mating outcomes, they're more likely like remember what we are.

42:06We are grand children optimizing machines. That's what humans are. We're not children optimizing machines. We are grand children optimizing machines and once you get two generations away from you, away you go crack on. But I think that that could be that could loved your breakdown when we were talking about that conception of left and right and how people see it. One side is a mindless cacophony of anti -male bigotry, minimization and erasure, the other and equally antiquated and equally restrictive worldview of alpha males and pick -up artistry. So good. Did I say that? Oh yeah, you did, mate.

42:42You weren't smith that very well. Yeah, well, I say a lot of stuff, and I don't know. Fan of your own work. But yeah, I think... So one of the things that you're trying to do is improve this conversation and improve the way that it's communicated given the fact that you're trying to display these ideas. What have you learned about the way that it is effective and ineffective? What is missing from the communication side of the conversation when it comes to this topic? I just think that really people want to live in denial a lot of the time. People don't want to believe there's not how much information you present to them or how compelling an argument you make.

43:27Some of the studies are presented in domestic violence especially. We're talking about a meta -analysis of 200 surveys taken across 30 years collected by probably the greatest expert ever on domestic violence. the man who invented the man who founded the field of family violence research did a study and he found that it's not a gendered issue, men and women abuse each other at more or less equal rates, press and worry struggles, the late most recent research. I don't know if he literally invented the instruments we now use to study domestic violence and he's saying that. So if I'm given that data and I still can't change someone's mind, I really don't know what hope there is.

44:06But I have learned, I've learned, I mean, I still find the issues extremely interesting, but more and more, I'm finding it even more interesting how reluctant people are to listen to what I'm saying, like, especially when it's so compelling. Not only not listen, but not even want to discuss, and any discussion of it makes you a misogynist or an in -sale or some sort of virgin, I don't quite know. I've learned that the way I described it was, mines aren't changed through like cells of a spreadsheet has changed for the cells of a human heart. Which by that I mean that it just doesn't matter how many pie charts I flick around or how many spreadsheets or diagrams it's very the humanizing way of talking about very important issues because one single story from one single person is way more powerful than any pie chart.

44:54I mean I don't want to go into the habit of quoting Stalin but he said one deaf is a tragedy a million is a statistic and I've really learned the power of personal anecdotes and that is something we can all learn from feminism where they're saying the personal is political and they are framing these important political issues as personal problems. So I try creatively, I try to combine different types of information like I like to see some data, I like to see some personal quotes and stories, maybe some expert testimony. I try to mix them around in different ways, present them with different sort of perspectives and strategies.

45:29Sometimes I take the same issue remix of another Honestly, overall, it's been very difficult. It's been kind of frustrating. But at the same time, it hasn't added benefit because so many people are not willing to talk about these issues. It's excellent for me as a content creator because there's so many topics that I could talk about. The no one else wants to talk about. It's like, I described it once as like eating from the garden for bidding fruit, where no one wants to talk about these issues. And I'm there gobbling all up. I'm like, yeah, this is great. No one's talking about this. No one's talking about that.

46:00This is a great perspective at no one. and like, no doubt, my chickens will come home to Rooce eventually. I feel it's a combination of many different things. I do feel that there's a brand identity crisis within men and boys, but I also feel there is a reluctance to actually give a shit from people. Like, people always talk about why I don't men talk, why I don't men cry. And it's all, maybe because no one cares. Maybe that's why. Maybe we simply don't care. There is a division of inner space about whether that's a biological thing or an environmental thing. normally like most things it's both but I do feel like we seem to care more.

46:34An empathy cap is male gender blindness. I think John Barry talked about when you're with Gamma Bias. Gamma Bias. Yeah. Yeah. John Barry, two for two today. I beg your pardon. Yeah. Sometimes you read stuff and you're just like that is so true. Like we do. We do like a raise male to Gamma Bias is how we highlight and minimize gender depending on what we're talking about. So we highlight male privileges. In the area of privilege we highlight the male sex and in the area of victimization we highlight the female sex. And by that I mean like if you look at newspapers, any of your visitors want to go away and just to homework, look at how the news reports social issues.

47:11If there's like a hundred people killed and two of them are women, you'll be like 98 passengers killed including two women. And what we're doing is we're highlighting women when they're impacted and we're erasing men when they're when they are impacted. I can give you as in London, where I currently live. Last year we had the worst year in history of knife crime in terms of the amount of teenagers killed. I mentioned earlier how we talked about gay people historically and we don't talk about gay men, same for this. We used to wear teenagers. Another teenager stopped at their 30, 35 teenagers. And then I looked at the data, which no one's going to do, apart from some nerd like me, every single one is a boy.

47:52not 90 % not 95 % everyone all of them every single one was a boy or young man mostly inner city black boys and who were reporting them the news here was as teenagers or children or like 15 year old like and I was just like you should be saying boys if it was just women if it was just women that would be headline news and what I know another more recent example was that there's another investigation the shocking results came out from a study into the Metropolitan in police and it found that they were they were strip searching children as young as eight so if you again you google it children as young as eight strip search by police that'll be your headline you find again and again and again and then it hit me digging into their data and I found that 95 percent of those children were boys black again black boys and sometimes race was brought into the title sometimes it was like black black children but never 95 percent boys and it's just like we wouldn't put up with that if it was it would worry about it was 95 % girls people would lose my mind including including lose their mind including myself Like we wouldn't put up with that but when it happens to men and boys we erase it another place we highlight Gender is in perpetration So obviously I like good man henchman and knife man Con man and it's like again.

49:05Oh man man man man man. I know that like a we look at that 911 for example We very much highlight the fact that all of the terrorists were men, all of them. But no one highlighted the fact that every single firefighter, I want to say every single one. I mean, 100 % of the firefighters killed running into those buildings were men. I think it was like 340 -something firefighters killed. And I like to call them firemen. I get it, I'm all for firefighters, but when it is all firemen, please say firemen. And that's, I feel like when we erase men from those situations, the heroism of men, bravery and sacrifice of men, we also erase our ability to construct the very role models you talked about.

49:46Because we're not seeing 300 men sadly lose their lives dragging innocent Americans out of buildings. That is something that is tragic and it upsets me that male and male masculinity is often defined by sacrifice in the last of life. But that is something that we should all be proud of. and that's something that men can look at him, be like, wow, those men gave their lives for others, and they are heroes from now until forever. And I guess that feeds into what you said about where are the male role models, and the answer is we'd say raise masculinity, we highlight the bad bit, we raise the good bit.

50:17And I'll give you one final example, is that the year after George Floyd's killed, I was a really, really shocking murder of a young woman called Sarah Everard and London. And it was awful by Wayne Cousins, who is just human filth. And again, the headlines were the same male violence, male violence, male violence, which is fine. We'll talk about male violence. But the following week, a young man died into the Thames to save women. He didn't even know and he died. He lost his life saving a woman. And there were no headlines about male heroism, male sacrifice, male bravery, and we just stuck, again, highlighting the bad, minimising the good, creating a very warped, one -sided perspective of men and masculinity that really does hurt everyone, including boys, because they're growing up in society that doesn't show the good of men and only shows the bad.

51:09And that's what leaves people back to and you take who I don't appreciate and I feel like I don't like him for my own personal reasons because I think he brings a very bad brand to the sort of area I talk about and he's a poor role model but he's a result of the left's failure in my opinion. He's a reflection of our inability to talk about boys and men in good faith in a way that isn't toxic there, some patriarchy, that in order to have a nonsense. We're not giving boys the space to talk in good faith, or men. And they're going to other people, it makes sense. And if we don't fix it, it won't be annotated, it'll be someone else, it'll be someone worse potentially.

51:44And he is our failure and our master clean up, and I just wish more people would see that. But think about it this way, man. Being your political leaning is very highly heritable, right? Whether you're from the left or from the right, it is very, very highly influenced by your genetics, which means that there are going to continue to be people from the left and there are going to continue to be people from the right. And some people can move between two, but there are a large cohort of people who were born to be on the left and born to be on the right. is there maybe a little bit of a gender skew one way or the other?

52:23There might be a few more, a small percent more women on the left or maybe women on the right. I don't know. My point being both cohorts have massive, massive numbers, billions of men and women inside of both of them. And if one side decides that they're going to abandon the conversation, they are seeding ground to a side that they don't agree with. And here's the other thing. people are more politically racist than they are racially racist. People, parents of children, a huge proportion, nearly 50 % of Democrats fear their child marrying a Republican. They fear their child marrying a Republican.

53:06I hate that. I hate that. That's way more people than fear their a child marrying a Chinese man, marrying like an African lady or something. Like do you know what I mean? Like way more, there is much more bias against the other political parties than there is against pretty much anything else. So given the fact that we have this, if you are from the left, if you refuse to have this conversation with boys and men, what you're doing is condemning all of the boys and men that are from the left to not be able to hear any positive role models, which is why the right dominates masculinity, not just the conversations of boys and men, but masculinity as well, because let's say that people from one side are necessarily always prepared to hear the ideas from the other.

53:54If one side isn't speaking to them and you can't cross the streams to be able to understand what the other side says, you basically have maybe 50 % of all men unable to hear what another side is talking to them about because they don't have anyone from their own political party that wants to engage. Yeah, I mean, for the left and all, it's talk of diversity never seems to want to talk about diversity of ideas, points of view perspective. It's only sort of things like, I've say things that are kind of arbitrary, which is like race and gender, which story don't mean that much, but diversity of opinion is what I'm interested in.

54:27I mean, I've seen what you talked about, the unwillingness to sort of date or be romantically involved with those of other political opinions. I know when I was dating, in my dating profile, it was like, I'm a labour member, but if you're a Tory, I've still got a date of you. I'm not a baby. I'm not a baby. Yeah, yeah, and I've got so many people that just calling me like, they know all sorts of stuff. And I'm just like, it's not going to work out. It's not going to work out for us. And, yeah, I mean, we all know it. We're sort of engaging very much in like a very tribal sports team style. Let's defeat the other side at any cost sort of politics where I mean I support Leicester City Football Club and they've just been relegated.

55:06I will support them for the rest of my life no matter how badly they do. That's how sports team works but we're doing that in politics now where it doesn't matter how much we fuck up, we will still support the left or the right and we don't look at it the same amount of balance. It is interesting as well how you talk about voting. I always find it interesting how women have outvoted men in America every year for about 40 years. So every year women vote way more than men. And if you look at power, we always talk about power dynamics and people talk about whoever's in office has power, which is true.

55:39But there was also power held by those who put that person in office. And also many women can choose who goes into office because they out in a moment every single year, every single, so election. And I wish more men would vote. I don't think it's any women doing everything wrong. Like they're every right text size, they're democratic vote. But it's interesting how we talk about women as these sort of powerless people when in fact they are the biggest voting block in America. And that's why so many policies are for them. That's why you have to buy an agenda of women, Obama's sort of review of women's issues and we have the White House Commission of Women and Girls which don't exist for men and boys.

56:14There's a dozen or so 15 I think states and a half commissions for women and girls set up by politicians, non for boys. There's four offices of women's health in America, non for boys and men. There's like a national coalition for women and girls in education, doesn't exist for men. But even like the Bureau of Labor has a women's, or women's bureau, not for men. And it's like, if you consider the fact that thousands and thousands of men die at work every single year in America, more men die at work in America every year, than all of the American military deaths in the entire Iraq war for 20 years.

56:48So all the deaths from the Iraq war in America, that's how many men die every year at work. massive issue no men's bureau in the bureau of labor and I'm like come on like going back to men there's no office for men's health for women and I'm all supportive of that I'm not saying that's closed the women's ones down I'm saying let's make some for men like if you look at the 10 top causes of death in America nine of them are dominated by men nine men lead nine of the top 10 causes of death no office for men's health and not only that but like men are more likely to die at every age group, at every age group from neonatal to old age, more likely to die and not just America either, but across the world, in every country men and in shorter lives on average.

57:34And nothing is certain done. There is no, I don't understand the structure of male advantage. Why does it have so few commissions, committees, departments, offices that actually solve these problems? So I guess that's a criticism of the patriarchy theory for you. What do people get wrong about the gender pay gap? I know this is something that you've looked at quite a lot. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's so much to say. I mean I guess first of all I'd say it's not a gap between men and women. It's a gap between mothers and fathers and there's some really excellent, I mean I love graphics. There's a really great graphic of like different countries and you see men and women's salaries going up like this together over time.

58:11And then women comes down and men's carries and going and it's like well what happened there? It was all going so well. It was all going so well. And then suddenly, and it's like, child, they had a child and the women have taken time off work to have a child. They get longer maternity, maternity leave in the UK. And if they do go back to work, they go back part -time, if at all. So I'd say it's better seen as a child penalty paid by mothers and the solution to that penalty is probably something to do equal paid parental leave for fathers. So if we can give fathers equal leave to mothers, mothers will be able to return to work sooner and then return to their sort of career journey and the pay gap will be closed through more parental leave for dads.

58:55And that's a really good example of like a approach I like to take where we look at men's and women's issues as symbiotically links. The problem of one is the problem of another and like any equation you've got to look at both sides. So I'd say one side of the problem is to pay up the other side is, uh, parental leave for fathers and he got to solve them both. I mean, there's also a lot of evidence where men work longer hours, men travel further, men work more dangerous jobs and working industries where, um, I'm a little more high paying, which is true. But then I guess you've got to deal with the discussion of like, well, why are men choosing these jobs?

59:30Why are women not working and engineering? Why are women not working in STEM? And there's so much to say about that. But it really comes down to the individual differences of men and women in general. Do we have different interests? Do we have different behaviors? And if so, are they shaped by biology? Are they shaped by our environment? Is it both? And I mean, it's both. It's surely both. So, I guess the answer to what you're saying is that men make different decisions, men behave differently, they're good for different jobs, they don't take equal parental leave. They're just different people in general, and a lot of that has an impact on salary.

1:00:04There's a really good, the biggest study ever on the pay gap, I think it was done by Harvard and you basically looked at Uber drivers in America. So the big reason was the biggest because they had so much data, Uber obviously has so much data and men and women both drive Uber's in America. And they looked at the paying and they were like, well, women are getting paid lesser Uber. So how does that make sense? Because it's obviously all automated. So like what a great way of studying male or female behavior to work out what is in the gap. And there's three things in the gap. The first was men drove at different times a night.

1:00:35So, men would do the graveyard shifts the early mornings when you get paid more. They would want to do that. Women less so. The second was that men were more likely to stick with the platform for longer. So, they had more experiences than they benefited from experience. It makes sense of any job. And the third reason, which is 50 % of the gap, was that men just drive faster. So, drive a little faster guys, then you'll close that gap. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's, I mean, yeah, that's what you've got to say. It shows it's not, it wasn't discrimination that's caused in the pay gap in Uber, it was just different types of behavior.

1:01:08Heavy right foot. Different types of behavior, and I guess we can have a discussion of what shapes that behavior, but we need to start that conversation with it. It's not discrimination, at least in Uber, different types of behavior. And if you factor in, you know, with men and women, same job, same experience, same level, same hours worked, the pay gap's like 99 cents to the dollar. And in fact, Asian men are paid even more than white men. And Asian women. And it's like, well, Asian privilege, baby. I thought we were about Asian privilege. I really, I love learning about this from some of your infographics.

1:01:40And what I love is the conception of the difference is between asking why are women paid less and when are women paid less. That's the conception, right? It's not about a reason it's about a time and the time is motherhood, the time is becoming a mother. And here's the thing, man, you know, you've seen this in the Scandinavian countries. This was sort of Peterson's big break, whatever, five or six years ago when he was talking about, as you make countries more egalitarian, you see gender differences between the sexes increase, not shrink, because you open up the ability for your biological predisposition, which isn't predetermined, but it is a predisposition for you to be able to go and do the things that you want to do.

1:02:20Now, the interesting thing is I wonder if you were to say a mother and a father, how much is leaving the UK's like nine months usually, right? For a month? It's 12 months, but it's sort of split in government and the work. Okay, so let's say you increased it and let's say that there was 18 months and that had to be split between the father and the mother, right? You have 18 months and that's the household and you can choose to split this however you want. Something tells me that would be making the system more egalitarian, right? The decision is now completely in the hands of the family. Something tells me that there is a lot of mothers that would just go, looks like I'm getting 17 months and one week of leave, like crack on honey, because it completely fails to account for the fact that women who are mothers, a lot of the time, love being mothers.

1:03:20For the most part, that's the reason that they chose to become mothers. And that's too loud. Yeah, presuming that, presuming that women actually enjoy the experience of becoming a mother, which for lots and lots of my female friends who are writers, who work in offices, who are high -powered, lean -in, career -style boss -based women, it's been the single most transformative thing that they've done. It's absolutely adorate. And if I was to tell them that they had to get themselves back to work earlier, they would feel like they've lost a part of their life. I'd say the ideal choice for both fathers and mothers is part -time parenting, part -time work.

1:04:04That's what the data says, both parents want. Women want it more. I've looked, there's been some interesting studies where I think there's the New York Times. they asked parents what they wanted. Do you want like part -time work, full -time work, full -time parenting and then I found some interesting Bureau of Lever Statistics data on what actually happens, like what is the reality and it was like the biggest difference between what a parent wants and what they get was their full -time dads. So the vast majority of dads are working full -time but a lot of them want to be sort of part -time parents whereas if you look at the the day to fall like full -time parenting, full -time motherhood.

1:04:45That was actually the closest. That was where the what mother's wanted and what mother's got married at the most. So you got like working dads over here, lots of them work a full time, but lots of them wanted to be parents as well. So I'm like, I don't know why we don't see workers not a choice either. Like everyone talks about a motherhood isn't a choice and it isn't, but then dads don't get that choice either. Like they have to go to work. They can't be like, I'm not going to go to work today because they do. That's how it works. And I don't know if we talk about the sacrifices fathers make in that way.

1:05:17We do talk about mothers not enough, we can talk about them more. But I mean, my dad, he was a career father and he was very successful. He spent his whole life traveling the world going to conferences, speaking at large events. I really smart guy. But we never saw him. He was out earning money and my mum took a time off her career to raise my sister and I and as a result she's built a massive network of friends like all her girlfriend's on a village or she imagined she met them when she was going to like play school and going to play going to pick us up. My dad has none of that now they're very frotired and he I guess he's not got that same network of friends like my mother my mum has and I'm like the price of his sacrifice is being paid now but the price of my mum's sacrifice I was paid at the time.

1:06:03Now she's enjoying it, she's enjoying it, she's got all her friends, she's got a family, she's got a great connection with me in my sister, because you spent so much time with her. And I don't know if my dad has that same benefit, because he spent his life working for us and he didn't have a choice. You didn't know, if you met my mum, he would not, she had to go to work. And I think we should see the benefit of both. And we should uplift women to become mothers if they want to. like we should give a woman CEO as much value in respect as a as a mother, like both are like just respect to all and just as valuable.

1:06:36And it's like we talk about a lot of the left, they talk about how empowering women to do whatever they want, women's autonomy. But then it's like the autonomy ends when it's her decision to do something they don't like, like be a mother, like what if a mum wants to be full -time mum? And it's like, well, now she's internally oppressed. She's been conned by the patriarch being a domestic housewife. She's a proponent of the patriarch hierarchy of course, she's brainwashed, she has to be brainwashed, any woman as a different opinion to me, it has to be brainwashed. And it's like again, in a darker sense, like abusive women, that's a decision women make too.

1:07:09But we ignore that. We don't accept that level of autonomy. When a woman chooses autonomy to be abusive or violent, we have a really hard time seeing that and accepting that. If a woman wants to come see you, excellent, we love it. A woman who wants to be an abuser, less so. And I know, I mean, I'll quote Margaret outward to you but she talked about my fundamental position is that women are human beings capable of both saintly and evil doings and having that's true they're not perfect they're just as flawed as men are like they're no better not all worse and we need to sort of see them in the full sort of color of their beauty and good or bad that's what autonomy is and I don't know if we extend that a ton of me to that breadth in motherhood or anywhere else and them.

1:07:58God that is a real tangent. What have you learned talking about women and how they communicate and interact with men? What have you learned about what men want from the women that are in their lives, the kinds of conversations that they wish that they could have other things?

1:08:22I talking about what they wish that women would know about them, what they wish that women would understand, you know, what is it that you think men want women to know more about them, whether it be in terms of relationships, sexuality, mindset, mental health, career goals, lifestyle goals, any of that. I felt that for women to understand what the male experience is like, we need to go back to the lockdown. of coronavirus and I was in London at the time and it was awful, but that feeling you get when you're walking around lockdown, writing the midst of the coronavirus was how I feel like it is to be a man where people are afraid of you, people avoid you, people cross the road that you go to a supermarket and someone steps back, that feeling of unease and unfriendliness and fear.

1:09:14Even like the fact that your emotions are masked, I feel like it's such an interesting reflection of the male experience, that feeling of unease and fear. Same as just like, it's frustrating how the male and female experience exists in the opposite ends of the spectrum in a sense that men have so few things nice said about them. Like, the vast majority of normal men never receive a compliment and go weeks, months, years about anything kind being said about them. But women have compliments sheltered at them from car windows in the street, like just It's catcord and it's like men walk through society, completely ignored a lot of the time, just ignored doesn't matter.

1:09:54And there's benefits to that and disadvantages. But women have a spotlight of society burning down on their shoulders at all times, especially if you're on a track to young women. And I'm like, whatever the differences are, it's not for me to say, but surely the answer is just through talking about them. Not identifying men as toxic or violent or patriarchal, but actually just listening to what men are like. We talked about men, manboxes, we talked about how we're lifting men out of the boxes of career provider status, which I think I can't be harmful boxes to be in. We're taking it away. We're taking men out of this boxes, but we're just putting them into another set of boxes like male privilege, male violence, patriarchy, male fidget, these are just more boxes and I just don't want to go in a box.

1:10:36We just want to be given the chance to live our lives and any answers is fruit listening basically. Yeah, talk to me about fragile masculinity. I've seen you bring this up a couple of times. It's a really interesting conception when you think about that. I remember that you used this example on one of your posts about the razor. Yeah, gold products and like Ellen DeGeneres like snide in comment, took the piss out of Bic making a for her pen. So yeah, explain fragile masculinity and how that's interesting and through the lens of ruthless capitalism. Well, I lifted that idea from an amazing blog.

1:11:18I read from a Translman and she was talking about, because obviously she's experienced both sides of the gender divide. And she was saying how it's amazing, how when we see pink raises or big for her, the marketer that women, we laugh at big, we laugh at the razor company. We're like, how stupid is that? I can't believe you're trying to defined women by being pink. And I laugh too. But when a like a nuts for men comes out, or crisps for men or chocolate bar, big chocolate bar, we don't do the same. We blame men. We're like, oh, look at these fragile men wanting to buy their blue razor or their blue.

1:11:52Oh, so fragile. And it's like a real difference in a way we approach the two things. We blame the products when they're gendered to women, but we blame the man when they're gendered to men. And I guess that's fragile masculinity. And it's basically the same thing, which treated in two different ways. And I hope people will open her eyes a bit more to that. What's the story of Nora Vincent? No, Nora Vincent was a gay woman and a journalist who really said story. She fought her book, I think the book's called Inside Man. She basically lived as a man for I think 18 months just to sort of understand what a male experience is like.

1:12:34And she didn't enjoy it. she had to stop early and check herself into psychiatric care. Then actually, earlier this year, she ended her life, sorry, last year, ended her life by suicide, as a mental health. I mean, a lot of people are politicising her deaf as a way of being like, oh look, God, it's a be a man. And the reason why she decided end her life wasn't directly because of the whole man thing, but she just developed a really strong sense of gender dysphoria as a result, as living as the opposite gender, wasn't necessarily because it was a man. So I want to make that caveat, but she came back from her experiment and she was like, as a woman, don't know what it's like to be a man.

1:13:12We don't know. That's the basis I try to start out when I'm trying to understand women's issues, women's experiences. I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I have no idea what it's like to be a woman. Sometimes I'm near by attractive women and I see how they're treated in my society and it's horrible, but I don't think women understand my experience any better than I understand theirs. and whatever the answer is, like I said earlier, the solution has to come from listening in good faith. I have learned to take a seat and listen to what women go through when it comes to reproductive rights.

1:13:48I think it's important that I do, but so too there's a seat next to me. Women should sit in that when it's time to talk about things like male suicide, men's mental health. like there's a seat for everybody and a time to listen and too often like male suicide especially is so often gate -kips by people that aren't even men and it's like there's a time to listen. How's it going to get kept? Well as far as we got like the whole concept of like suicide is caused by toxic masculinity which is a popular feminist concept that originally came from that my poetic men's movement but it's obviously been adopted by feminism and And that's used as a lens, a walk and ineffective lens, in my opinion, to understand male suicide again, to blame men on being so toxic.

1:14:34If men would talk more, and surely the male suicide rates would come down, but the problem is, there's been studies on that too, and it was once study last year, University of Manchester, looked at men who had completed suicide. side and of all the middle aged men who were died by suicide, 91 % of them had sort of help. So 91 % had actually been and sought counter therapy or some sort of healthcare provider. And I think 30 % of them had sort of helped the week before their suicide. So it's like, well, you're telling men to talk, but 91 % of men who died by suicide did talk and they still died.

1:15:10And even more shocking is that of those men who died by suicide who had been sort of seen by a clinician 80 % of them were deemed low risk or no risk. So of these people, of these men that died by suicide 80 % were seen as no risk or low risk. So it's something it's more likely that we're simply this misreading male distress because a lot of a lot of our psychiatric interventions and the psychological industry in general is often based on our women's needs and women's behavior because it's an industry dominated by women, it makes total sense. Like a look at industries that are dominated by men and we rightly identify the ways in which it creates spaces for men, like environments for men, like ideas and strategies for men, but we don't look at that as psychological industry, which is dominated by women.

1:15:55It's like 85 % of clinical psychologists are women, and naturally, not saying it's intentionally done, but naturally that will create ideas and approaches that are perhaps more beneficial to women than the Ottoman, and maybe that will help us better understand why suicide interventions just don't seem to be working on men, as well as do for women, it's certainly worth discussing at the very least. Does that Richard Reeves bit where he says four times more female fighter pilots are in the US Air Force by percentage than male kindergarten teachers in the United States, which just blows my mind every time I think about that.

1:16:31And you know, when you use, when words like toxic masculinity are used, this is another Richard Reeves thing. It's the same concept as original sin. It's like there is something inside of you which is inherently wrong. It is a part of your makeup and it must be expunged. We must come in and we must do the exorcism. You must prostrate yourself upon the altar of gender ideology to be able to fix this problem. The main thing that it does, regardless of whether you think that there are toxic elements of masculinity or not, what it does is it causes men and boys to check out of the conversation. If I am told, there is something inherently built inside of me, which is wrong and reprehensible, and it must be cleansed, it must be sanitized and sterilized out of me.

1:17:22Guess what? I'm not fucking listening. I'm not going to listen to what you've got to say to me, because you evidently have such a transparent, veneer -thin level of care for any experience that I go through from hearing anything that I've got to say, we're not existing on the same plane. No, yeah, no. It is the parallels between like patriarchy theory and original sin are very interesting to explore. And it just lacks, it doesn't have the same depth that I think is required to understand very complicated issues, very complicated issues. You look at domestic violence, which is often seen as men's, men enacting patriarchy or control or women.

1:18:05Although power and control is certainly a factor, it's only one of about three dozen factors, many of which are more important than power and control. And by just seeing domestic violence through patriarchy theory, we're actually losing a huge part of the picture. Another example University of Cambridge, University of Cambridge study looked at violent fantasies and men, so men who fantasize about being violent, often that man is called toxic, that's a toxic man. But then they looked at his experiences in adolescence and they found that about 97 % of the most bullied boys in school went on to have violent fantasies later in life.

1:18:44So a huge percentage, 97 % of the most bullied boys, violent fantasies in adulthood and the academics working at paper, they hypothesized that fantasies of violence are coping mechanism developed by boys to deal with violence to come. So these boys are being bullied so much that they develop this coping mechanism of fantasizing about violence that they never got rid of and they carried into adulthood and they became a man who fantasizes about violence. So I guess I would encourage people to not see the man who is fantasizing about violence and instead see the bullied boy behind him. And suddenly you can start to get a bit more compassion for that man.

1:19:24And you don't even necessarily need to have compassion, you just need to understand that But we can talk about your things about justifying it, but we do need to understand that some of these issues are more complex than just simple one word catchphrases and hashtags. And the fact that we use paid chocky theory, not just to understand domestic violence, we use it in the standards, it loads it if an issue such as the pay gap as you mentioned. And it's not good enough. I always think of it as like trying to explain complex societal issues with the same one one would answer is like trying to fix a really meticulous watch of a sledgehammer.

1:19:59It doesn't work, it's not fine enough, it's just you just make an amiss and like we now have access to really interesting complex economic psychological and topological tools that can help us understand the pay gap for example and we should start using them rather than falling back on these antiquated, aggressive, very divisive and extraordinarily vague words that are just not good enough anymore. And we'd need to have a real academic evidence -based conversation around these different issues. There isn't so dramatic. It's so dramatic, it's spooky. It's like scary these words. Like the patriarchy, the emanace fear, toxic masculinity.

1:20:40It's like, it's borderline on fairy tale sort of language. And it's like, I think we can do better. And I hope I've proven a little bit of how we can do better through my page. I absolutely love the way that you speak. I think that it's incredibly eloquent. I think it's very, very balanced. And the main thing that I want people to take away from today, you know, if you're a woman and you've been listening to this, it probably is a bit uncomfortable because it's hard to hear a struggles, the modern framing of almost any conversation about one group and another is that if you are talking about the struggles of one, it is implied that the other is somehow to blame.

1:21:21But no point during this conversation, have we said women, they're the problem, it's them, these bitches. At no point as we said this, I'm about what I would really love is for more of this conversation. This is exactly the conversation. I talked previously, you may have heard me talk about a third wave manosphere. Have you heard I think they had a Sakudimia coming out. No, it's not. This is cutting edge bro signs. So first wave, you understand there was different waves of feminism. They were fighting for different things. First wave, first wave of Manusphere was picker artists. It was mystery and Neil Strauss.

1:22:02It was the game. It was negging. It was day game and pulling and stuff like that. Me too comes along. That could no longer survive. There needed to be a sanitized version of men's mostly dating, but kind of also started to creep into masculinity that rose up for the second wave, which was red pill, it was alphas and beaters and cooks and soy boys, it was Andrew Tate, it was fresh and fit, it was like that world, right? Now, my belief is that we have the opportunity to do a third wave atmosphere, and the third wave atmosphere would be not seeing women as the enemy, it would be not adversarial, it would not be antagonistic to the other sex, it would be trying to integrate the positive elements of masculinity, allowing men to be masculine, but to transcend and include their emotions that are difficult to be able to talk about them, but not just talk about them, the surface level to be able to act off the back of them.

1:22:53And that, for me, is what I'm most excited about at the moment. I'm really, really excited about the conception of a third wave manosphere or call it what you want, holistic masculinity, integrated manhood. It doesn't matter about what we call it, right? I'm talking about content creators like Hamza, who I think is a really good influence for young boys. He's telling that they need to train more, he's telling that they need to look after themselves, they need to have a good society and support group around them. People like David Bus, people like Richard Reeves, people like yourself, people like John Barry, it's something for male psychology.

1:23:27Like all of these people are putting forward a positive, non -adversarial, positive sum, not zero sum, not negative sum, positive sum, relationship and way that men can show up in the world. And again, for the guys that are listening, there is a trend on the internet for men to start to point the finger and make these big fucking sweeping generalizations about all women are and all men are there are averages on average. Everybody that's listening to this is not part of the average. They're not part of the average because listening to one and a half hour conversation about the in -depth nuances of what masculinity means in the modern world, you don't show up or expect average from yourself in pretty much anywhere else in life.

1:24:10So why start throwing these massive broad stroke generalizations around that accuse another group of being the ones that are in the wrong? I don't think that I think that we can do better. I'm positive that we can do better when it comes to this conversation. And I'm very, very glad that you, George Attenman, are a part of this. You are an unaz -yet, unalied but soon future member of the Third Wave Manusphere. Well, I'm happy to be a member, maybe we can consult about some sort of renaming. Yeah, it's the brand being proud again. Yeah, yeah, well, that's my job. Like I I live this, what you said, excellent.

1:24:46I am fully on board about. I think we need to identify both the good and bad at masculinity. I mean, one of the, like you said, one of the things I hate is generalizations. I often point out in the comments. A lot of people make a broad stroke for generalizations about feminists in my comments. And I'm just like, listen, like, If you're, if we are asking women not to make generalizations about men, then what right do you have to make generalizations about feminism? And yeah, I wish we would listen a little bit more. I wish we would see masculinity as something that can be good or bad. I wish we'd saw it as something that is in a lot of ways immutable.

1:25:23In the same way that sexuality is immutable, we've come to terms with the fact that someone that's gay, that is an immutable part of who they are, that's how they were born. And like, why can't we look at masculinity and femininity the same way? like sure you can change, you can bend your masculinity, but that's just who you are. And there's nothing wrong with that. Also, we need to just get over these dramatic world views. Really good book he should read. Chris, it's called Factfulness by Hands Rosaling. I don't know if you read it. I've heard of it a million times. I'm so good. He talks about overlapping distribution and on average.

1:25:53Also, Richard Reaves talks about it. And he's just like, distributions overlap. And we're talking on average. When I say women are one way and men are the other, It's not like this, it's like this, like men and women are overlap. The distributions are overlap and we're talking in general terms about these different groups. It's not very sexy, it doesn't fit into a tweet unfortunately, but if you're not willing to engage in these discussions in a more extensive manner, then perhaps you shouldn't be part of it at all. It's like it's difficult, it requires listening, it requires nuance, it requires putting aside your personal differences and there's many ways possible, or even like your own experiences and trying to actually listen and like better understand.

1:26:31And I just think the fact for the things very interesting because it talks hands -riding as like a world leading, was a world leading professor of global health and he talks about how we have an overly dramatic world view because we only see the very worst things. Like a million men and women go to work, eat a sandwich, come home, go to bed, boring. But one of those people will get stabbed to death on the way. Certainly it's everywhere. And we were looking at that and we're like, oh my god, it's so dangerous, so scary, knife crime violence Dada da da da da da da, but reality it's actually not like that if you look at global trends things are getting better things Again, safe at we live in the safest time in human history He did a thing called the gap mind attest where he took I think he took 12 Answers Yeah, 12 12 questions about like vaccines education poverty disaster zones, things that people think they know a lot about.

1:27:23One of the questions was what percentage of the world is vaccinated? The answer was 80%. But no one got it right. You found that of the quiz, which is multiple choice. If you just guessed every single answer of 12, you would get four of, sorry, it's, no, it's 16. Basically, you found that if you guessed you would do better than the people that actually took the test because we have a systemically negative view of the world. You only see the world, it's very, very worst. And he said that if I took this quiz to the zoo and wrote the answers on bananas and threw the bananas into the cage, the monkeys would do better on current affairs than human beings because the monkeys haven't been subjected to this preposterous, dramatic world view.

1:28:08Yeah, I call, I came up with a meme for that. Two memes actually. One is self reinforcing antagonism, which is where one group fills my line to the other group, it doesn't feel like they're listening. Therefore, I feel like I'm more aligned. Therefore, I doesn't feel like they're listening. Therefore, so the gap between the understanding of both sides, the failure of cross -sex mind reading, and the other which really relates to what you're talking about, although I only spoke about it in the dating space, was recursive red pill learning. So recursive red pill learning talks about how chat GPT is now being trained on chat GPT data.

1:28:41So, presuming that there is an error rate within the data, it is creating an error rate on top of an error rate, on top of an error rate, and it's going to create this recursive problem. The issue you have with a lot of conversations on the internet generally, the most egregious stories are the ones that rise to the top because they're the most egregious. You know, if a guy leaves for work and comes back and finds that his wife's cheated on him with like three men, and now he's got a gluten intolerance and lives under a bridge and she took him for all that he's worth, quite rightly that's going to get a hundred thousand of votes on Reddit because it's fundamental.

1:29:13But that because most people live most of their lives through the internet and because the stories that get the most attention are the most egregious stories, people who don't have any counterfactuals who see these extreme examples believe that that's the way that the world is. And then it gets propagated by other people who Well, part of that same content machine. So that's the recursive red pill learning side of it. But it's the same for everything. You could have recursive feminist learning as well. As soon as you retract yourself away from the world, as soon as you don't spend all that much time day -to -day in IRL around normal people, most of whom, watching, get up and go to work, have a family, get a nice dog, and just fucking watch Netflix and chill out and maybe go to the gym in the morning.

1:29:59That's most people, right? Yeah. What you see on the internet is not real. It's not real guys, it's just the internet. Like I noticed that, one of the best things to do when you're stressed out on the internet, just go outside for like 20 minutes, like it's really not as exciting as dramatic. It's actually kind of boring real life in the best possible way. But you're right in that, in terms of what the way we perceive reality, we either see people winning the lottery and quite literally or people being killed. And there's very little in terms of narrative forming in between I know I want to watch a new story about it.

1:30:32No, someone goes to work and does nothing, comes home and it's like what is sort of headline is that? Boring. And I mean in men and boys advocacy, that's called Apex fantasy. So that's what hurts men because we see all these rich men, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, white men, especially, it's, oh look at rich they are, and they're the tiny little apex at the top of the pyramid. But also we forget the fact that they're very bottom of the pyramid. If you look at homeless people, also disproportionately men, like men are over at the centre at the very bottom and the very top. And yet we only ever seem to want to point a finger at the top, which is very enough.

1:31:07But again, it's a lot more nuanced than we like to pretend. And the world isn't as exciting as dramatic or scary as it seems. And I feel like we should go outside a little bit more and remind ourselves of that, I think. Touch some grass, George. Look, dude. I think this one home. I love the work that you do. everybody should go and check out at the Tin Men on Instagram. Where else should they go? Do you do other stuff too? I think it's only one person. People keep being like, oh, do a TikTok, do a YouTube, do this, do that. And I'm like, and one person, this is just a part time thing. I've actually also got a job.

1:31:42So yes, it is just Instagram at the minute at the Tin Men. I'm on Twitter, not that active, but I've put in all my effort into Instagram. I want to absolutely nail that. And really what it is is, my Instagram is more about research and development for what I hope one day will be a documentary. I want to sort of learn about how do I have, how do I navigate these very treacherous issues, issues how do I walk this tight rope? That's phenomenally difficult. But the world of boys and men advocacy is often compared to literally the alt -right white supremacy and being in Nazi. So that's the bedfellows I'm starting up with.

1:32:18And I'm trying to find a way of having these discussions that hopefully progress to the conversation and eventually I can build into some sort of documentary. I want to work out what issues work, what sort of language is effective, what sort of creative strategies Most resonates most of an audience then I'm gonna sort of try and adapt that into a documentary But that's down the line for now. It's just at the Tin Man Instagram And you can find me there looking forward to her Me and you see in the comments there's lots of comments, lots of debate going on like huge long big paragraphs of text the best the best comment I never got maybe laugh and I still think about it.

1:32:53Some guy was like, holy shit, every comments and essay and I was just laughing so hard it. I was like, thank you, that's such a compliment. Like normally on Instagram it's just like, yes, yes, yes, yes, it's amazing, it's like, okay. Yasguin, louder, louder. And then like for me it's like big text. And then like you keep, if you say something don't like me or want to, you want to call me out. I'll pin your comment and hopefully we can have a good discussion. So I hope it's a rich and interesting space and if you like it, come follow if you don't like it, also come follow and we'll chat about it.

1:33:27So yeah, I appreciate you. Thank you, George. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.