#671 - Dr Steve Peters - The Science Of Reducing Stress & Building Confidence

27:39I love broadening time horizons like that. And it's something that I found myself really poor at doing in my past that the decision that I was making right now was going to be the decision that I would have to live with for the rest of my life, that this purchase of a car or this move to a new city or this change of a house or this makeup or break up of a relationship or whatever it would be. It's like, when you realize that most things are time bound and most things are subject to change in future, it helps to release a little bit of the pressure and the same thing can occur for public speaking or a bad podcast.

28:16I do a bad podcast, like, well, I've got two more to do this week and in a year's time, there's going to be 150 more released. You can't have a good podcast every single time that you do it and it helps to release and relinquish some of that obsession. obsession, I think that we have in the pressure that we apply to ourselves. And I think you're demonstrating when I start working with people to say, let's look at what we mean by this chimp system. What does it work with? What can't it do? One of the things it can't do when our blood supply goes into the chimp system, which is the orbital frontal cortex, just above your eyes, when that light's up, it cannot get in perspective.

28:53It struggles with perspective. So, and it can't bring reality to a situation because it's very emotionally based the way we save things. So if you have your bad podcast, it struggles with this. It starts catastrophizing and it wants to go over and over and over. It doesn't actually want a solution. It just wants to get rid of the problem and there's a sort of difference. Whereas if we can train your brain to move to human mode, this is what I'm doing by my computer coming to the rescue saying, as a human being, I've got rationality and saying, you know, and I've got values. So you're bringing which the human system does, which is the top -yard, we see that light up, you now bring perspective in.

29:35So, but the complexity of the brain is that the human can't take the chimpanzee. If there's a fight between these two, the chimpanzee will always win because it has transmitters that can actually annihilate the human from functioning. So we get high jacked, literally, in multiple high jacks where people act out and they can't do it. And people say, that means I'm doomed because my gym's always going to win, but this is the social degree. I've explained in the books that the way the chimp works, it knocks the human out, but it must necessitate this as turn to the computer and scan, which we see at literally scanning the computer and getting advice, beliefs, experiences, intuition.

30:17It gets masses of information within in a split second, which then advises the chimp, which it has to follow, what to do. So if we program our computer as well, that's the secret of managing the mind. So we program them so that when the chimp knocks us out, our computer takes over and manages the chimp. So there is a way around this, it's not doom and gloom, but if you don't program the computer and keep it running, then the chimp will definitely take control. So a couple of words that you've been using a lot throughout this conversation that I want to dig into, values, beliefs, drives, how do those fit together, how do we know what our true drives are, etc.

31:03Drives are in it compelling, emotion, feelings we get, the biologically driven, so there's a drive to eat and everybody has that drive. So it's exceptional not to have an eating drive. All right, most people it's extremely strong, because it's a survival drive, it's common sense. There's a lot of drives, there's a drive for security. So, and it's where you turn to fulfill that drive. So we talked to teenagers who will turn to their peer group for security, and we've explained that's got traumatic results at times. But if we turn for security to our environment, that will help the chimp, but not necessarily the human.

31:42Our humans turn to security by looking within ourselves and our resources and what we think we can manage in life. So a human for security doesn't go on the environment. It may help, but it won't help. Overall, the chimp will look on the environment, but get in the right environment, but that doesn't help with the mind. So you're not going to get a great environment, but the chimp still, the humans still agitated saying, I don't feel. So other drives, the sex drive is very powerful and obviously that leads to a lot of difficulties with a lot of people because they can't manage it and the chimpanzee can take over.

32:19So if there's nothing in the computer, we're getting to difficulty. So drives are compelling things that get us out of our seats without us having to do anything. They just make us move. First is a drive. The drive for the first. There's lots of them. They drive to be with the people. So if you move on to beliefs, these are now what your experiences are or what you've been told. So a belief, for example, again, I'm taking extremes. Let's say I believe that all people are good and they're nice. I'm leaving myself very vulnerable to those I know will take advantage of me. So I'll be taken in. I'm naive.

32:59If I have that extreme belief, if I have the extreme belief that all people are not to be trusted, that can have repercussions and be feeling very isolated and not trusting someone. So I don't get any debts of friendships or interpersonal relationships. So you have to look and say, what are your beliefs? So if you have a belief, which I push a lot, the one in five belief, and that's best more on reality and the research that's given that about one in five people love you regardless. All right. They're pretty diluted really because even when you're not in the right, they'll still believe you. One in five people criticise you regardless.

33:38Unfortunately, they're often the most vocal. So unfortunately, the social major, these are the main vocal people coming in. And that's really sad that we have one in five people who are quite acoustic. And three out of five are reasonable decent people, where you're upon what you do. So they're like, if you're really decent anonymous, but they probably won't, if you're not. So if you have that belief that one in five people you need to be wary of Because and one in five people don't get flattered in misled but three out of five learn who the balanced ones are if you want sound boarding So if you go in with that belief which I believe is a correct one, but that's my bias Then it means I'm constantly assessing.

34:18I'm on is this someone I trust or is this someone who's gonna just flatten me and or is this someone who's balanced and challenge me appropriately and admit me stop and think hey I'm on them I have a point. So beliefs are something that guide you but they're quite strong because obviously these are what I call the gremlins and the autopilots that if these but you try to do something and a belief stops you then that can be a positive influence or a negative. So even sensible beliefs like don't skate on the an icy pond, you know, especially if it's thawing, you know, that's common sense. So you have that belief because you are distorted or you've experienced it.

34:59So that's beliefs, beliefs, you have millions of beliefs, some of them are very strong and some of them are not that influential, but we form them generically and we form them specifically for circumstances. Values are really important to me. The reason I push values when I started doing this work 30 years ago and creating this model of the mind as I was going to use of our patience. And again, there will be people who disagree with me. I want to give you what I believe, and what's experienced over the last 30 years. The only thing that gave pace of mind, which is different to happiness. So pace of mind is knowing what your values are and knowing at the end of the day you live by your values.

35:39So I worked on my values and I found no matter what happens around me, whether I get criticized, misunderstood, misrepresented, these things will disturb most of us. At the end of the day I can look at the mirror and think, have I lived by my values? And if so, I'm not peace with myself. It doesn't matter, it's uncomfortable, but I can live with it because I respect myself. So when I looked at this and did it with experience with patients, everyone said, once you know your values, you're almost immune. you start realizing that's what's going to stabilize me and give peace of mind. So it's very important to know how to find values and what they are and not model them up with things like what's valuable to me.

36:21That's not a value. So I was trying to say once you've got your values then you can measure which I ask people to do, demonstrate your values in action every day because that will bring you a peace of mind thinking I did the right thing. In your experience, where do most people go wrong when it comes to working out their values, sitting down with a piece of paper or doing some exercise online or whatever? What are the do's and the don'ts when it comes to defining values for most people? No, it is. There's a confusion there because if you go online and say what's a value, you're going to get a lot of different definitions.

36:59So I had to say, what am I talking about? So the people I work with, I try and agree this is the definition of the value and then we're at least we're on the same page So I'm gonna go with what I've created as a definition, but a lot of other people have got the same definition I agree with them. So a value is immoral belief that you hold something you think is what should happen a Decent person which is gonna be me. I'm gonna live by this decent value on this belief which is going to be acted out with a behavior. So for example, they can't be subtle. Let's say which many people do, I want to respect everyone because if I know me disrespect someone, I feel bad.

37:41I lose my peace of mind. If I unwittingly disrespect someone and then realize it or get told, that will unsettle me. So I need to know how do I measure respecting someone? So for me, I would put down number one is I listen to someone, I don't have to agree with them but I give them an audience, I don't attack them, I listen and what their views are, I listen to their views and I I believe personally for me that's showing respect. So if I wanted to say let's just check I'm respecting people, I'm gonna have a week where I actually say how many times did you dive in without listening, how many times did you stop, especially in an emotional discussion, How many times you stop and say, I want to look actively listened to what they're saying, understand it, and after a great, understand it and respect that value or that belief.

38:31So that's an example. What people do is they muddle things up and they say things like my car, you know, that's not a value because there's no behavior. It's what you're saying is valuable to me. I really get a lot of pleasure and enjoy it out to my car, but that's not going to be bringing you peace of mind. You know, it may bring you happiness. So, and I like to work on happening separately to peace of mind. A lot of the exercises that I've seen online looking at things like core values do work. You come up with answers with things like curiosity, adventure, self -development, self -care, it seems like a key part of your definition is that there is an action.

39:18There is something which is going to influence your behavior and how you show up in the world. Certain things like curiosity become very nebulous and difficult to define. You know, they're like intrinsic parts of your personality or the bits of you that you enjoy your respect, but when it comes to creating, like enacting that, it feels like there's a little bit more of a difficulty going on there. Is there anything to say about that about some of the... Yeah, I mean, I get your point. I think for me, curiosity comes under what I would loosely call it as the drive for stimulation. So some people, they're stimulationally just going on a computer game, but the brain is satisfied with that.

40:05Whereas for many people it wants difference, it wants new experiences, it wants to see what would happen if. So we know that some people are more prone to saying let's test things outlets, and some people are wanting to achieve something. So I always put under this heading of stimulation. And again, most of us have got something we want as a stimulus, but it can be as straight forward as a social group. It doesn't have to be an ongoing learning language or I'm going to get to a new level on the computer game. And so I try and explore that with people to say, what are you doing to give stimulus to the boss, your human and your chimps?

40:40What is it they both want and what's going to satisfy that? And again, I think there's different drives for the human in chimps. So I work out because some people are much more terrible and say I'd like to have a discussion group like you know reading a certain book and going in the club and discussing it. With others, that's a nightmare. The stimulation could be just being part of a group that supports a football team. But you're looking to see some people get stuck and they don't have any. And then they'll say things like I feel dissatisfied. And it's hard when you don't know which way to turn.

41:12I do, I love animals. I've got a lot of animals around me. I've removed some from the room because the mid -noise is why we do this. So I rescue some animals and I know some people discover that. So I've had people I've worked with and they've said once you get an animal, not everyone, suddenly you've got this responsibility, this interaction, this, you see the animals world differently and it's, they use that as displacing care onto the animal and they get great satisfaction. That's one example. So I would explore it with people what your calling curiosity adds to stimulation that drives to get stimulation and experience.

41:54Yeah, that's very interesting. I think I probably need to revisit my what I've deemed core values, perhaps erroneously. It was maybe three or four years ago when I put mine together and in there were a lot of things that I actually can see as stimulation. Two of them were curiosity and adventure and they're things that I like to do, but I'm trying to run them through a more fine filter, which is, okay, how does this inform the way that I behave in the world? And I don't know if they necessarily give me guidance with regards to that. So I think... Okay, let's do some therapy really. Hit me. Hit me.

42:35There's only a million people watching, so it's fine. Cool. That's fine. It's not really therapy. It's just saying if you were asking me to look at this, I would try and get us so we understand that the blocks we're working with. So we're looking at the values as being something if you buy into this as peace of mind and things that are moral behaviors that you think I should do the follow -in, no respect people, help people. I don't know what your values would be. And now you've asked something different. You've said, I've got this drive, where does curiosity come in? I put that under one of your drives and say clearly it's to you.

43:08So let's look at how you're going to get mental stimulation through those drives. But you're moving on to different areas again when you're looking at things like happiness. Because if you're saying that, it clearly drives overlap. So happiness is something that most people search for. It's an odd one this because I know when I started writing the books, I was told that, oh, happiness is one people want and I had a little bit of difficulty because I don't search for that. I'm not saying that I don't want it, but it's not a big I'm content to be peaceful, you know, but I'm not someone who searches for this great happiness and, you know, I'm just happy to be just okay every day.

43:48I've satisfying to me, so I'm a bit odd that way. But if you are saying, not Steve, I need this. I want stimulation, but I also want like full development because I'm expecting your curiosity is leading somewhere. You know, so I would be saying to you, let's look at what you're trying to get that fulfills your chimp brain Which is a really good thing to do that gives you a great feeling and a wellness and it may be excitement to drennel in It may be satisfaction, but after to say what are the words that are appropriate for what you're trying to achieve? It could be all of them because then we can start understanding what is you doing But I have to say I have to be careful because as you get so analytical you just get on with your life and I'm saying just to be spontaneous, but if you're finding that you're not feel -ful filled, that's when I think that's analyzed.

44:33Let's see what we can look at in the blocks. What's missing? So you're right, when you're saying I'm not sure you defined them clearly and therefore you won't be using them to advantage. I think that's accurate. I think that functionally, it sounds nice and they're definitely things that I enjoy, but when it comes down to sort of what functional utility does it give me, Can I look back on my day, look in the mirror and go, I was curious today, therefore I feel at peace with myself. There are many, many more things, including respect for others, which is a really great one from you, that I think would more highly influence the peace of mind that I have.

45:13You've mentioned it a couple of times. I want to dig into this, this tension between peace of mind and happiness and what's going on there. Yeah, they sometimes don't go together. You know, it's like, let's say I have, I've got staff, let's say I've got a member of staff who's really not fitting in with a group and we've got me, I haven't just in case any of my staff are listening. And they're clear as the problem. It's not definitely not I'm okay. And I haven't got anyone, but if let's say I did and I thought, you know, the team are not jelling and we've got this person who's not fitting in with our values or they're not dead just tried but they just don't work well.

45:53Then I know that the right thing to do morally is to grasp them out and go and see them and say, look, it's a mismatch. You know, there's no negative in that sense. It's going to be difficult. And they may get, I'll have this in the past. They may attack me and say all the things in the world, you know, you're meant to be this caring person, but I'm thinking it's for the good. So I would leave that. I wouldn't be happy, you know, I'm not saying I don't want to be happy by the way But I wouldn't be happy but I'd have peace of mind. I've not done the right thing and in the long run They may not like me and I've nothing good to say about me But I'm knowing the long rates for the best for them under team So there's an example where peace of mind and happiness don't go together And it can go the other way.

46:36I could be happy about something But not a peace of mind because I think actually you didn't do the right thing. So overall, I'm going to end up feeling not so good. I'm think, yeah, it's just superficial happiness. I was going to say, do you think it seems to me that happiness without peace of mind is more difficult to achieve, that peace of mind acts as a tarnish that can kind of color and jade any experiences and that the happiness Will inevitably be more fleeting or more fragile? Yeah, I haven't done this. It just keeps people going, but obviously it's part of my job. I've examined over the years doctors and medical students, because that's my world.

47:20And I'm with the Royal College and you know, I want people to pass. I don't like to feel anybody. And so if somebody's balled around and you think, oh, they don't really deserve to pass. I haven't done this. My happiness would be to pass them. I wouldn't have peace of mind because at the end of the day you were wrong. You shouldn't do this, but I might think, I know there's something so much, and then I'll justify it rationalised. Well, I'm sure they'll learn on the job and I'm sure they'll be fine and I've got, but that's rationalising. So you can see there's an example where somebody might lose peace of mind but actually feel at the time, I'm happy because I've passed them because if I don't, I'm going to have such an happiness.

48:00So sometimes we compromise our values which lead to us having less of a peace of mind. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's something people have to decide on. Yeah, that's very interesting. You brought up your work with medical staff. You've just done this new study. You've been you've completed and are published as study on burnout and well -being, thing among the amongst NHF nurses and maybe doctors as well. It talked to me about sort of burnout as a concept. It's kind of a buzzword at the moment, I think a lot of people maybe do feel that they are overwhelmed with workload and stimulus and I don't really have time for myself and I feel like the past, maybe I was like more peaceful or things were slower and then Bernat was a concept and then let's fold in this new study and what you learned from your time working with the NHS there.

48:50Yeah, I was with the NHS for 20 years so it was great time. Burnout, again, is defined differently, but I think it's common sense what we mean. It means you suddenly feel like you don't have the energy anymore. You get up in the morning and you dread it. So for a doctor, for example, let's go back to my experiences. I would do outpatients twice a week. And if I'm starting stuff at Burnout, I was thinking, I can't face it. I just want to get through this. That's a sign of burnout. Whereas normally I'd be at in Cane and then tears you ask them to go and see them. or thinking, you know, if I get the slightest headache, I'm just going to fall into it.

49:27And you get signs of burnout. So there's a number of the anxiety, but it's generally this failing up, I just can't do this. I can't do it. I'm overwhelmed as you pointed out. So with that in mind, when I did the CHIP model, which just took off, and it's very humbling, because obviously it was meant to be just for medical students to learn the neuroscience. When the CHIP model did take off, I wanted to go back to my roots and I worked, we did a series of workshops, I called it Skills for Life and it's emotional management and understanding yourself as based on our path to the jungle. And we said, we'll take, we took 80 GPs from accounting nearby and I said to them, we'll run eight workshops and we'll see whether this affects your health, your communication with your staff, your burnout, your sickness that was just a pilot run I did and it worked fantastically.

50:22Again, credit to the GPs and the staff who were working with the GPs. They worked on it and they said it did make a massive difference. So as a doctor obviously I'm bringing out this model which is semi fun but serious. I want to know it actually works otherwise it's fraudulent. So then I took a study with 200 teachers and went into the schools and we tried to say, let's have a look at you. We have three centres of study and again, it's only pilot run. We're teachers in York, Birmingham and Cambridge and that was just again just a pilot run. So we did it roughly and ready and the feedback was really, really encouraging.

50:58So I didn't actually do the next study because clearly I can't do my own assessment. So it was taken out to my hands by an independent research group and I was not allowed to do the teaching bit. I was put to one side. I accept and I think that's right. And the underwent these series about workshops and then they did analysis which is published in the Journal for Mental Health. And it showed a massive reduction in burnout, a massive reduction in health issues. And in general, health questionnaire was used to show that the increased health was market. So we've excited by that, obviously, I'm over the moon.

51:37The nurses were brilliant and engaging it, brilliant. But they took it seriously because obviously they're from mine and the stress on them is immense. And amazing, it was done under COVID. We had to do it online because they all were brilliant to say we keep going. And the feedback was great. So we're now undergoing another group. I'm not involved. Independent researchers are doing 200 doctors. And again, I do a lot of talks to medical staff because this is my world. And I'm more familiar with the medical world than I'm sports. So it's very encouraging. So we run this for the public as well. It's not just academics.

52:17And it's just to say, if it resonates with you, then you can do this and see what you think. And the general fail is it, now the research has published and analyzed that it does have an impact. I was worried that it wasn't like something a flash in the pan because obviously a lot of therapies they see it, they don't hold. So we did go back to the GP's months later without warning and say it gives another feed and found it held. Which wasn't surprising because what I'm asking people to do is approach life differently and once you do that, you're more or less keep doing it. But you do have to maintain, I do say to people five or ten minutes a day as all I ask, to maintain these and learn to get your mind in order before you leave the house in the morning.

53:00That's what I'm after. What do you think it is specifically about your approach that is assisting with the symptoms of burnout or targeting even the root cause of burnout and overwhelm? I think genuinely, I think it isn't the model person, I think it's the person being able to understand themselves and start looking after themselves and start understanding things like I mentioned trigger points, recognising anxiety rather than not seeing it. So we give teachings about subtle signs of anxiety, then recognising how to detect things like beliefs that are not helping. So we're challenging a lot of things but it's all about the unique person empowering them and giving them the tools to get the life and be the person that they are.

53:52That's what it's about. So when you do that which will include practical things like communication skills, assertiveness, but learning how to communicate with the human side of the brain, rather than the chimp brain which is emotionally driven and can often cause more problems. So it's a big overall and looking at you. I think that's why it's working because the person makes it work. They have to decide, I can't decide what works for them. Yeah, and as you've sort of emphasized today, because we are so idiosyncratic, and because our drives and our genetic predisposition and our life experiences and the ways we've dealt with past trauma and all of that are so unique, it needs to be something which is sufficiently scalable.

54:35and each person presumably individually finds their own flavor of this. And that resonates with me because I'm more of an angry chimp person or my chimp and my humaner, Chris Hoi rather than Ronnie O'Sullivan. Right. And that's why I say I can't, I say this to people, only you are going to discover all I do is help you and catalyze where it's born and suggest. But I'm going to have to ask you to do the work. It's not me that does the work. I do my bit. But again, I'd say at this point, you know, it doesn't resonate with everyone. It's not for everyone. And there are fantastic therapies out there.

55:12My job along with everyone in this field is to say, just try and get the best out of yourself and quality of life. So, you know, if people go from mind, from CBT, these are excellent therapies. They're excellent models to work with. I mean, I'm an academic, so I like evidence -based. However, if people go for things where there's no evidence, if it works for you, I'm not arguing. All I say is be very careful that you don't get fooled by something, particularly someone who is giving you stuff that's going to work in a short term and then find your claps down. So it's got to be something solid and there's plenty of stuff out there to resonate with.

55:50Have you found a particular cohort of people that the CHIMP model works particularly well or particularly poorly with? That's a good question and the answer is no because because it's whether that person gets it. I mean, some time ago, and I very first started doing this, I was asked to do a brief television series, which was with some women, I got four of them, and they asked me to teach them to ride a bike because I was with cycling at the time. But now to lose weight, I learned how to manage the mind. So it was a fun series I did. I loved it, the women were brilliant. They were brilliant, great fun to work with.

56:28But it was interesting that the gym mobile walls almost imposed a problem. I mean they knew who I was at the time is some years ago, but one of them didn't resonate with it at all. And I was happy, I said no, I couldn't talk in different terms, but she had a moment where she'd baked, she was doing some sport, and she'd gone after sport justifying why she was getting a takeaway. And she knew she was on telling, she said, I sat outside the takeaway, and I said, I deserve this, because I've worked hard, I've run off a a lot of calories and then I said to myself, you're on a television program, you're meant to be losing weight, and then she rang me and said, I've just found my chin.

57:09She said it was bizarre, I was talking and I'm thinking, who am I talking to? So sometimes the penny has to drop where you think, I get what the neuroscience is, but it doesn't happen for everyone and that's what I'm saying. Find something that resonates with you. So who works with it? Is the person that resonates? So my younger student is three, or has was three who got it and would talk about his naughty gym. The eldest person that's come to me that's actually said this really works there's about 80 and what he was he was quite annoyed at me saying why didn't you write this 60 years ago but how was it a little boy at the time?

57:49I don't have any knowledge yeah yeah but I've had a lot of people who are which is very humbling to or in the 60s and 70s saying, ah, it's only I had known this. So there's the vehement, you must bring this to schools. But I don't want to impose it. I think someone has to resonate. So there's danger of imposing. And that's the last thing I want to do. It's got to be empowerment. Rounding out that conversation around, sort of burnout and overwhelm, you spend a good bit of time in the new book talking about robustness, mental robustness and resilience. Big buzzwords, you know, a lot of the guys that I've had on the show, people like David Goggins, who's this ultra -injurance athlete, Jocker Willink, who wrote a book about discipline, equalling freedom.

58:32A lot of discussion about mental resilience and robustness. What is interesting do you think about, or what have you learned about your conception of resilience and robustness compared with maybe what most people don't understand or get wrong about it? Again, your definitions are so vague. If you start looking, there are so many different people saying this is what Rebus says so I had to do the same, I had to say to myself define it so people are following you they say okay if we use that definition I see what you get going to so I define Rebus says having a plan so we can all become robust it's like getting a toy for a child and saying we've designed it for the child resilience is handing it over and see if it works so resilience is where you go out of the world into the world and say right so I would have a mental strategy and plan to deal with my trigger points.

59:25But when I get out there, that's being robust. I'm ready to leave the room. The second they get out, now it's resilience is the skill to stay robust, is to stay in that same strong position. So I think robustness we can all get to, but being resilient is a skill. And I think that's where people come on stuck, because they start beating themselves up instead of saying it's a skill. That means you've got to acquire it and maintain it. But also, some days you get it wrong like any sports person. For me, managing my mind is a skill and every day I've got to work on this. So every day I do, every day I have usually around four points in the day where I do a quick check and say, right, can we just make sure I'm in human mode, make sure my beliefs are back in place, make trying to stand and get perspective.

1:00:17That's what I do. Very briefly it can take a minute, five minutes, but that resets my mind. So I'm resetting. So I think resilience is something you've got to work on and know how to use your skill, but it's not easy. So that's why when I wrote the a part of the jungle I was saying, I'm going to show all the basics. So you know how how things work in your mind what resonates with you what doesn't so you can do the exercise to get you to have a great place by the end of it you've now got robustness and you've got some ideas on how to become resilient and that's why I did a bit of troubleshooting at the end to say these are the common things that I find people say it's not working for some reason you know Ronnie was sort of indicted as they else's the other permission to tell anything I'd worked him about two years and he rang me one morning and he was very much in chipmort and distressed and he said it's not working it's not working I'm quite hard and I said to him have you done the work and he said no so I said okay I'm gonna put the phone down ring me when you've done the work so I'll put the phone down and he rang me about three four days later and I said how you doing he said brilliant I said why I said I did the work you know so the answer simple is There's no different than anything else you've got to do.

1:01:34The work and the work is making sure your values are in place, making sure what we did, the stone of life, not mentioned, with all your beliefs in place and what the rules of the way the world works. These are the truths of life. And then also putting in place a perspective plan. So when he did that, he said, yeah, it's working again. So the answer is when people say to me, it's not working is, I always ask happy -done -the -work and sometimes people need guidance because they'll do they really try hard But they're trying hard on the wrong things and then you've got to say hang on kind of just adapt that or modify this and So little subtleness and then they go, oh, okay, I'm off again That's why I call my team the mentors because they're there not to Instruct they're there to mentor you to saying oh, let me help you.

1:02:24There's a glitch here and challenge things so you can work it out yeah, the the tendency that we all have to complain about results we're not getting from effort that we're not making is very, very pervasive. And I see it, I see it in myself. If I start a new training program or switch my diet up or try and do something different with my bedtime routine, I, I, it's what it's like, you've done it for three days. What do you mean? And you, one of those days you didn't do it because such and such a thing happened or you were away from home. So yeah, it's one of the things I'm getting here and it's interesting.

1:03:00There's almost like a philosophical underpinning here, you know, your own personal philosophy about the way that the world is. And obviously we experience the world through the texture of our own mind. It's the only way that we have to experience the world, even experiences from other people still get filtered through our own mind. And yeah, it does, there is a sort of almost like a whimsical philosophy, undercurrent that I'm sensing through some of the stuff that you're talking about, making sense of the world around us. Yeah, I didn't want to be restrictive when I did this to saying right. I mean, obviously I've been taught very well with philosophical models and medical models and psychological, But I did want to strict people.

1:03:47I think it's what people want to do with it and make of it. I'm very much keen that they have empowerment. But I still will challenge things. I'll challenge beliefs people hold because if I think that's holding them back, beliefs about themselves particularly or other people of the world. But I will, yeah, I think there is a philosophy underpinning it, but it's your philosophy. And I think sounding boards, we use friends to do this all the time. we say something, they'll correct us and say, well, do you really see it that way? So what I'm doing is doing that with hopefully the neuroscience behind it to give that push.

1:04:22But I want to take you back to something you said, because on the thing, it doesn't work. One of the commonest things I get, and this is an example of why it doesn't work. Sometimes if you do work for a few days and then you miss a day or two, you can go backwards depending on what you're trying to achieve. So I'm going to give sleep as an example. I ran sleep clinics a long time ago and people say to me I just have terrible sleep and one of the general rules of sleep is that it's a it's a learned behavior. So although there's only circadian rhythms, they're actually secondary to learned behavior.

1:04:59So if we get you to learn a behavior of sleep then your brain will start to follow this and your body will. The circadian rhythm is obviously powerful but it's not as powerful as habit. So I work with people who say, right, and I say go to bed whatever time it is 10 o 'clock wake up 7 o 'clock and that's your sleep. And they'll do this for say I'm making it up five days and then Saturday comes and say, oh well we'll wait until we went home at one o 'clock and then got to bed and I slept in till 10. And the rules I'm being very vacuumite, the rules are simple for the next three or four days you finished.

1:05:33You can't do that with the brain. So now your sleep's gone out until about Wednesday or Thursday. So now you try again and you're saying, well I'm doing what you said, but that's the subtleties you know you didn't. You have to stick to it Saturday Sunday as well. Now I know some people get away with it because we're variants, we're not all the same, but the general rule is once you do that, you're finished. It won't accept this destruction of sleep. So again, I'm trying to point out that sometimes there's subtleties in the where the mind works And it's to say with emotional stuff, which is why I pre -programmed things about four times a day because my experience for me Is if I don't then I get minor chimped my team might say midget chimp outbursts And then I think she and I have to put around say okay, sorry about that.

1:06:23Let's start again Right, but if I prime it about three or four times, get it back in tune, I tend to never to get one. What a really consistency. Yeah, what I really appreciate about your approach and what you've gone through today is a real humbleness or sort of a lack of ego, at least an apparent lack of ego, around needing to be right. And I think that it's a very strong signal of trustworthiness that it's just, I want people to be better. I want them to have a better relationship with themselves, people that are around them, I want them to have more peace of mind and live a more flourishing better life.

1:07:01You have an approach that you believe in, but if there are other things that people do, I think it's a very refreshing way in a world in which everybody is trying to prove themselves to be right and prove their models and their worldviews and their books or their courses to be Yeah, but the reality is that none of us are always right. And that no everyone will resonate. So it's very nice to say, but I don't say it's humble. I think it's been rational that there are plenty of other models that people have said is much better or I don't get this gym model. So I don't think it's necessarily humble.

1:07:40And I think on the eagle thing to be fair, like a lot of people who are in medical work, and allied sciences, philosophies and all this, and where we're practical and therapists, therapists. We're there to help people we get a kick out of that. So in a sense you feed your ego, but it's only about for you to think, oh, that person really did well. So I thrive, and I think it's nice to, on the people doing well. So to me, you know, seeing someone suddenly saying, I've really got my act together, or achieved something like Chris Hoy did, you feel thrilled that you're saying, I had a little bit of a part in that.

1:08:17Steve, you're even humble in your humbleness, which is unfalcifiable. I'm gonna keep on accusing you of it. Now, I really do like it. And I think the idea of the mind having this hidden metric, the fact that our peace of mind, our happiness, the fact that we're living in alignment with our values, we don't see it day to day in the same way. It doesn't appear on a scale in the same way. and I'm fascinated by how people sacrifice hidden metrics for observable metrics. So let's take a piece of mind and money. A lot of the time people will sacrifice peace of mind in order to get money because it is so difficult to see.

1:08:59And I really think that one of the things that appears to be happening here is trying to make that hidden metric a little bit more observable by checking in, by seeing where I'm at, by reflecting on what I've done. I, I'm a doctor and a scientist at heart and I like to measure things and so I do like people to see that progress because we also know our chimpanzees like to achieve as our humans do. So I do push this to say, let's get a scale to measure things. Even happiness, you know, we've not we talked about it. But I ask people not to give me a scale 5 out of 10 because I don't one minute than nine.

1:09:39What I do is I say things like tell me five things that will make you happy. They're like simple things so it could be, have you got a coffee, go for a walk with a dog or it could be going out with friends for a meal. So what I do is say, right, I want you to measure how many times you do that in a week because we know that if you do those things the chance of you being happy go up. So I measure indirect, so I often don't measure directs. I think what's going to influence you to get what you want. So I'm quite keen on what happiness lists I go on about them because again because most people do want to be happy.

1:10:14I do want to be happy. I've made myself into this kind of weird person but I'm saying, peace of mind for me. I have a peace of mind list. But I think happiness lists I think are really important and I like to divide them into instantaneous because that can make a difference to our chimps. Maybe not our humans. So for me a a cup of coffee is right at the top of the list. I'm an addict. So if I want to get happy, I grab a coffee and think, I'm happy now. I even use that as an emotional blackmail on my gym. So if I've got 50 emails and I've got to do them, and my gym doesn't want to do emails, right?

1:10:51But I know it'll benefit people. So I'll say, you don't get coffee till we do 10. I have no idea why, but it will do 10. So we both do 10 and then I get coffee. So, and it works for me. So, same, same. There's an equivalent, you may have seen this in some of the training sessions that you've either done yourself or observed, but in CrossFit especially, you will have a time -bounded workout and the coach will be stood at the front of the room and you'll be your heart rates at 180 and you've got the taste of metal in the back of your throat and you hate the coach and the workout and gravity and everything.

1:11:26And the coach does this thing, every single CrossFit gym on the planet does this. the cultural shout from the front of the room. Chris, get back on the bar. Three, two, one, jump on the bar. And there's something about that countdown. And it's like someone's literally put their hand inside of you and made you do the thing that they were going to do. And the idea of like, you're not getting a coffee or you're not going to go for a walk or you're not going to do the whatever. There are like these little bugs or features, perhaps in the code that we have that's running our operating system. and sometimes you can just inject yourself at the right point together.

1:12:02You can learn to do it. It's the same man, people say to me, I've worked with the British wound team for a while and the biggest thing for them is getting out of bed in the morning because it said it's four o 'clock starts and it can be hard. And so some of them struggle. And again, it's the same principle of saying don't think, just block the chimp because that's what's stuck in you. You wanna get off. It's only the chimp ring that says, stay in bed or we could have five minutes more or and it's irrational really because you sound like you get up, that's where their arms go. So again, it's quite powerful to learn to block thinking and just say, no, I'm not going without a acting.

1:12:39And that's basically what you did with your Chris get going three, two, you're not thinking anymore, you're just acting. So what he's done effectively, you know, scientifically, is turned your computer on as a behavior. It's neither chip nor human that's got on the bike. It's the the computer and I was taken over and said, it's irrelevant how I feel it's irrelevant, what emotions there's an action needs to in and here we go. So he's used to trick a point for the computer and that's why that will work. But you can learn to do that for yourself, which is what I've done. I get my computer to take over and my children, okay, okay, we'll get coffee soon.

1:13:13Steve Peters, ladies and gentlemen, Steve, I absolutely love your work. I love your demeanor. I think that I think it's very, very good. And no matter how humble you are, I think that you should continue to do the things that you are and take all of the praise because it seems very very well -deserved. What should people do beyond the books, but those as well, if they think that they want to get even more information if they want to start working with somebody on this, what is it that you guys offer? I mean, they can work things out from the books. I say, Pathroof The Jungle is much more explicit with exercises to try that hopefully would resonate with people.

1:13:48and it goes through the science and there's lots of references, 400 plus they can look up. We run a small company and we do do workshops for teams or individuals. I do a lot of fun stuff as well so we have a sports conference coming up in October. I'm going on a Dracula hunt back to North Yorkshire and Whitby and we're going to do a fun, I'm going to teach at the beginning of it, set them off. I did a team build for my team, they loved it so I thought let's the public. So I'm doing that in October as a weekend retreat. So it's fun, but it's team -building. Finding Dracula's coffin and then I do a Christmas conference.

1:14:26So we do do public conferences. We have an annual conference every May where I don't do all the speaking. You repeat, my team get up and do it, but we have the team available to do workshops and they can join what we call the troop, which is online. It's free. I've just gone to Chip Management website and I do a once a month thing which at the moment I'm following a pastor of the jungle to try and give people something to work on practically and there's a community there who go on discussion boards so if people want to join in and resonate they could meet like -minded people which is what I'm trying to set up it's working I hope.

1:15:02Fantastic Steve I really appreciate you thank you thank you so much for inviting me