#677 - Zack Telander - Is Watching Porn Considered Cheating?

27:47Could you see this story about her making dancers is eat bananas out of the vaginas of strippers and in Amsterdam and then body shaming them all and doing all the rest of it. Yeah, you know, it's a, I think Tim Dylan and Joe Rogan talked about this and Tim had a really good point. It was like, Lizzo kind of went on and hired people to be her dancers that aren't professional dancers, you know, like they're good, you know, and then they're plus sized. And the point was, I want to prove that, you know, these people can be in show business as well. And what happened was there was a line of problems that followed up on it.

28:32And then I think someone tried to record her, like being abusive. And then she threatened to like lock the doors and figure out who it was. But yeah, I gotta be honest with you, man. I couldn't care less about Lizzo and the things that she does to be fair. Well, if you think that that woman was ever being genuinely pro body positivity, I don't think that you're a particularly good judge of people. Like, Ellen DeGeneres, I know that there was all of this news that came out about her and how mean she was and stuff like that. She didn't ever seem like anyone to me that wasn't just a performative mouthpiece for what she thought would make her likeable.

29:17Or make her money. Make her money, which included being likeable. All right, next thing that I want to talk to you about, do you think that watching porn constitutes cheating? This is a good one. Let me give you some more context. And you can ponder on that question along with every bit. Is there a study? A woman explains why she made her husband look away when Florence Pugh appeared in Oppenheimer. Apparently there is a rawn she sex scene throughout Oppenheimer. And this lady, West Virginia tiktok, Jordan Kerr, has revealed that there's one scene her husband didn't watch while they were enjoying the new movie at the cinemas, as he had to close his eyes and rest his head on her shoulder.

30:00This is all because she said she suffered betrayal trauma after discovering that he watched porn. One of her female followers had asked if she had any advice for how her and her husband could watch Oppenheimer was being fully afraid of the Florence Pew scene everyone's talking about and she said that she researched aggressively every single movie that they're going to watch before they watch it and especially this one and When the movie came up he had to place his head on his on her shoulder with his eyes closed and then she got to tell him When that scene had finished I went through betrayal trauma 10 months ago after nine years of marriage 10 years of being a completely monogamous relationships you said, I was fully into the belief that he didn't look at other women.

30:39He didn't self pleasure at other women. Pawn was the first thing from my mind. I never would have thought or believed that he was using pawn, but he was and I found out about it on September 17th, 2022. That was the hardest day of my life. It was the hardest following weeks and following months of my life. Betrayal trauma has changed me as a person inside and out. It put me through a lot of stress. It put me through a lot of pain. It put me through sickness. It put me through depression. Gave me a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety. I've come a long way in healing. I'm still with my husband and so happy and thankful.

31:07I'm proud to say that he's been sober for 10 months. He's been doing all the steps, all the work, everything necessary to not only change and stay sober, reach long -term recovery, but also assure me that he is creating a safe space. He is becoming a trustworthy person and he is showing me the signs that I need by his actions, his behaviors and his patterns that he is going in the right direction. Yeah, so that the context is important with that situation for sure. Like if you're having problems, then yeah, both partners should stay away from self -pleasuring and porn and like look to each other for that.

31:41I think that's got to be a pretty intuitive response. If the porn is literally taking away from your sex life between you and your partner, then yes, it's absolutely a problem. And it hasn't, and there's been some, there was like a massive meta analysis on this. Do you know what's one I'm talking about, it talked about porn use and the relationship to either failed relationships or failed marriages. And it was a huge huge. What was the impression you remember what the outcome was? It was just the more porn, the less likelihood of the longevity of your, but the thing is the porn could be a result of problems and then it doesn't fix it.

32:23Which direction is the correlation arrow going here? do people that are in bad relationships watch porn or just porn cause you to have a bad relationship? Right. And maybe both are true. Mm -hmm. But I think, you know, it's just all communication. Like I went with my partner to see Oppenheimer. She didn't fucking even think twice about the Florence Pugh scene. She's like, oh, Florence Pugh, great actress. Cool. I'm like, yeah, cool, nice tits. She's like, yeah. Keep passing popcorn. With the whole movie was fucking amazing dude. How how is that the part where you're stressing man? That was the most important that was the most important part So what I've got in my head There's another article here about the same thing from distractify .com After finding out that her husband had an addiction one woman began documenting her recovery journey and helping other women in her spot Antic tock finding out your partner has a drug addiction or drinking problem is one thing But finding out they are addicted to watching sex sexually explicit content of other women is a whole different ballpark House, though, while it's an addiction that involves betrayal, the partner with the addiction chose to experience and lust over other bodies rather than their partners.

33:33When one woman learned her husband had that type of an addiction, she starts documenting on TikTok. So I'm wondering how many men have been rumbled by a partner who evidently doesn't feel particularly comfortable with being sexually open. Socio sexually in evolutionary psychology speak, I bet that she's very low. I think that she's probably got some, she said it drove her into anxiety, 18 depression, which probably suggests that she maybe was predisposed to that. Maybe got some self -esteem issues and stuff like that. So she's a perfect cocktail for this to trigger something which is really, really bad in her.

34:04I wonder how many men have been caught by that and played the same card that every celebrity for the rest of time when he's been caught cheating has played. It's my addiction. It's my pathology. They've pathologized like using porn once every couple of nights or once every week in an attempt to try. So I would give it at least a 50 % chance, probably more, probably like a 90 % chance that this guy doesn't have an addiction to porn, that this is his way of making his partner calm down with the thing. Was it stated in the thing that he was addicted? That said on both that he was addicted, but I'm going to guess that that's self -id.

34:44Right. But porn addiction is a real thing and it's really, I don't disagree, but I think Pawn addiction, genuine, genuine porn addiction is relatively rare. It's really, really rare actually, especially in a relationship to be addicted to porn, is wild and to go to recovery groups and stuff. But anyway, the thing that's interesting here is, and obviously like the point to get around to, is it reasonable for a partner to have a problem with their partner watching porn. And if it is, is it unreasonable for you to pleasure yourself on your own without porn? And if it is, should you have some sort of minority report, mind reporting thing that says the only person that you could fantasize about whilst on your own, even if it wasn't with porn in front of you is your partner.

35:38And what do you do if a thought creeps in about that one girl, that one hot girl from high school or that chick that trains in the gym or whatever how scrutinized should your fantasies be to the point where you feel I've betrayed my partner. During last night's FAP, I actually thought about Katie from 2007. And that's it. I guess I've cheated on her now. Darling, I'm gonna have to take myself to rehab. The, this, what helps me kind of parse through this is thinking about the timeline because porn at this level was not available up until like what 2000, 99 maybe. And then I'd say maybe in like 2009 ish is when it became okay now you can get any porn you want to stream.

36:34So that's an important factor, right? Because like what would somebody in the 70s? How would this, how, how were people thinking about this in the 70s? Well, if they didn't have porn access to porn, they were looking at nudy mags all the time, then I guess that would be a problem. But if they're not, and they're masturbating, well, then they're using their mind to think about something else. I think what that comes down to is like the difference between fantasy and reality. And like a lot of, this is just my understanding of it, but a lot of women specifically like fantasy to them is so separate to their reality.

37:11Like if you think about how well all of these fantasy novels, like romance novels do, if we think about how incredible 50 Shades of Grey did, like, I don't know the numbers on that, but it was a massive thing. It was a cultural phenomenon. That's a movie where I would say like the only way a woman can enjoy that is to think about that scenario and is it with their partner? So the interesting thing here is men, state around about an average of four sexual partners per fantasy. So if you're having a sexual fantasy, you will tend to cycle through in one session about four because the male desire for sexual variety is significantly higher.

37:58women will tend to be one, which is why in any romance, I mean, there's probably some novels out there that are a bit different. Almost all romance novels have a single protagonist, right? The woman isn't bouncing from bed to bed between different guys because that doesn't fulfill the fantasy that on average most women have, which is a single usually very high value, usually very high status, kind of a rough around the edges man that she civilizes, she domesticated him because of his desire for her. That is the typical sort of narrative that you see in this. If men had romance novels, each chapter would be a different gangbang with a group of different women, right?

38:39Like, that's the way it would work. So it's definitely using... If you were to say, and there may be people out there that said they do, if you were to say that even the thought of fantasizing about a different person to your partner is constitutes cheating. That is a very female centric frame to place around this. And that's biological predisposition. Very robust. Male desire for sexual variety is higher. Number of fantasies, number of partners in anyone given fantasy for men is way higher than it is for women. Now, maybe you can say if you were sufficiently faithful and this was genuine chastity, you would be able to use your love for your partner and your desire for them.

39:22and you could tamp down all of these other things and this shows that you're not actually as whatever it is. But if I was to take as balanced of reviews, I can, I think that that's firstly unrealistic and secondly, a little bit unfair on men. That's not for me to say that men should be going out of their way to like reminisce or fantasize about their coworker at work when they've got a wife who's pregnant and two kids at home. But we just need to be realistic here. Like, you don't get to control every single thing that goes through your mind and unless you're going to peer into someone's mind and that what it thought crime?

39:54Am I allowed to think things anymore? We get into very dangerous territory. Well, so I don't know who said this, but it's this idea of thinking things is not always the problem. Thinking bad things is not the problem. It's the action of making those things that you think physical. And that can be, so if you're in a search bar on porn, you're searching for that thing you're thinking of. Okay, well now you're making that thought real and it is potentially, you know, that can creep into your partner's mind as being something problematic. Even further than that, if you're thinking of another woman, maybe that's bad, maybe that's not, but if you message that woman, you have now, or if you say what you're thinking about that woman to another man, even.

40:48That's where it's like you become what you say and what you create in the world. Much more than what you think. Yeah. I think we're just going to think, think, think, think. Think new thing comes in, new thing comes in and then, you know, so I think in a certain extent, I think women can be correct in this. You know, what would be the line then? Like don't write out what you want to see because then, you know, I guess it depends, I guess it depends on exactly how sensitive that particular woman is to what's going on. I would be interested to know whether men would have a problem with their partner watching porn, their female partner watching porn, I would almost be certain at guessing that if it was lesbian porn, which a massive proportion of women do watch, that they probably wouldn't care.

41:42It's the same as the like one side, one side, it opened relationship that we're seeing in Austin a lot, which is, well, we bring additional people into our marriage or our relationship, but it's always a woman. Fundamentally, the guy just isn't quite as threatened. But yeah, I'd be interested to know what people think. I don't know in the comments, let us know if you think that watching porn, when you're with a partner, is cheating, is fantasizing about an imaginary woman cheating, is fantasizing about like what if you just enhance your partner a little bit? What if you make them a bit more tanned or you put them in a blonde wig or like you imagine that they've got a different job?

42:22It's just there's a line and at some point you have to say, well that's it. But I would say on average that that lady there could probably do with doing a little bit of resilience work. For sure. Like if you are getting triggered by your partner watching and she's recently come out of this thing that she was evidently predisposed to and she's trauma response or whatever it is and all the rest of the stuff. I would say on average that that person is in for a hard life. If they are permanently being vigilant to, okay, so we walk past Victoria's secrets. Does he have to close his eyes and walk into a lamppost when it's Victoria's secrets there?

42:53But what about if they change it for body positive models? Does that make it different? That sounds very big phobic or fat phobic or whatever it is. So I don't know. Anyway, next thing, Bradley Cooper, the Leonardo Leonard Bernstein family defend an actor over the Maestro nose row. So Leonard Bernstein is in a movie, he's been played by Bradley Cooper in a movie and it attracted some criticism over the size of Cooper's nose, which some social media users said played up to offensive Jewish stereotypes. Bernstein family said they were perfectly fine with Cooper using makeup to amplify his appearance.

43:28There has also been criticism that a Jewish actor was not cast to play the West Side Story composer. Brakes our hearts to see any misrepresentation or misunderstandings of Cooper's efforts wrote Jamie Alexander and Nina Bernstein in a statement post -downline. Now you'll remember recently the Snow White and the Seven Dwarves movie, it started sort of ramping up a little bit of movement, didn't cast dwarves for the dwarves, didn't cast little people, and a lot of dwarf actors had a problem with that. and Hollywood came out and said, you know, it's antiquated. They're like figurative dwarfs. It's a fairy tale.

44:07And yet, when it suits them, no one that isn't gay can play a gay actor, no one that isn't, whatever can play a whatever actor. I think that there's a massive asymmetry going on with the selection effect here. Bradley Cooper, I don't know his politics, but he just looks like someone that would probably be a bit right wing. And I think that that probably doesn't play into it very, very well. So the dwarves thing is interesting because Frodo Baggins and you know was played by Elijah Wood and they're halflings. They're literally four feet tall, maybe even smaller than that. And I think the reality was like Hobbits have the same dimensions as people and I think dwarves don't, that's part of their like condition.

44:54So it's like, okay, well, are we, is it a height thing that What we're looking for is it, you know, it's, it is a very weird thing, man, because on the other side of that, if you had people playing an African American person or a black person and they just wore black face, that's, that's the worst of it, right? We go badly. Right. But if you do, if you do, to do the reverse, you know, we've got period dramas like Bridgerton and other movies to do with Vikings, series to do with the Middle Ages, and regularly, somebody of an ethnic minority that isn't from that era in that region will be injected into it in an attempt to increase diversity.

45:38So I don't know. I think that everybody's getting very, very sensitive about characters playing the characters, and I do understand that, for instance, with the dwarf thing, I don't imagine there's that many roles for dwarfs in Hollywood. So maybe it's a good idea to actually limit those roles to the people for whom there is a very limited amount of work. But then on the flip side of that, if you say, okay, and if you want to cast somebody who is suffering with Parkinson's to play Parkinson's patient, that's going to go very badly. You're not going to have a particularly good movie because you're not selecting the best person.

46:15So this is why it's interesting. It's interesting because you want to have the best person for the role. But you also there is a degree of like well, you know if this role is for a very specific sort of person and they get pushed to one side That also kind of doesn't feel fat. I think this tension is is what makes it interesting This is definitely unprecedented right because now Hollywood knows that they can you know The mob can bitch about prosthetics now and how they can you know play up certain stereotypes but I'm looking right now at an image and it's Leonard Bernstein next to Bradley Cooper's Leonard Bernstein.

46:51There's obviously prosthetics, but there's prosthetic ears, looks like it's cheeks a little bit, and the nose. But I wonder if they just didn't do that if it would have made a difference. I don't know. It's part of it's like you wanna look like the guy because the people know who Leonard Bernstein is and they recognize his face, well then it's going to be really important that the person playing him looks like him. Yeah, so you should have got a Bernsteinian look at like, when Will Smith played Muhammad Ali, he had his ears pinned back because Will Smith's ears stick out way more than Muhammad Ali's do.

47:24And yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, he had his ears pinned back to the movie. Is something else I just saw this before I was coming on? You've been following this Vivek Ramaswani guy, do you know who that is? Mm -hmm. Republican candidate and he is doing a lot of kind of viral talking head moments, whether it's on in on -street interviews or to the press. And he's a really, really slick talker. Say what you want about politics and his positions on X, Y and Z. But he's an unbelievably slick talker. It's very, very, very, very impressive. And I think he's sort of catching up in the polls and doing all the rest of it.

48:03And then I went on his Twitter and he is doing it because he's young. I think he's 37 or 38. So by far the youngest president ever. Maybe he's like, maybe he's in his 40s or something, but he's like around about that age. And his debate prep, he always uploads videos of him doing debate prep. And it's this video of him absolutely hammering four hand strokes, four hand baseline strokes with his top off in the sunshine. And the guy is in good condition. I'm like, what? What world is this? And there's another one, these like three hours of debate prep today or whatever. And then there's another one of him with his top off doing burpees with his partner.

48:39Whoa. Really interesting. That'd be it. That's a big change from all grandpa Joe. Yeah. You know, Trump Trump. On your list. The guy that said that you have a particular number of heartbeats. And if you train, if you exercise, it uses up your heartbeats more quickly. That is that what Trump said? I'm pretty sure he said that. Maybe it's a lie that I heard. I don't know. That's incredible. But it dudes just hammering thunderous forehands on the baseline. Yeah. That's so sick. It's incredible. Do you see that Trump has bowed out of the Republican initial debate, whatever the first like GOP debate is?

49:16And he's going to livestream with Tucker Carlson on Twitter instead at the same time. Okay. So, so, and that's got, so we'll X actually is what it's called now. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man, that's going to be how many views? I mean, doesn't Twitter get the most views of anything right now? It does, but it's because the criteria for getting a view on it is the lowest. It's, you know, it's a half second scroll past. And when you've got auto play on a platform, it counts pretty much anyone going past it as a view, which I don't think is fair. That being said, you can get into the analytics on the back end and see three second views, 30 second views, 60 second views, I think.

49:55You would just calculate it all watch time. Would be cool. I would love to see that. I would love to see the comparison between the two. Yeah. Yeah, hilarious. All right, next thing. Sunfront Syskins are having sex in robotaxies and nobody is talking about it. Have you ever thought about getting down in dirty in a robotaxie all the time? What, want to light up a SAG or a joint on the drive home from the club? You're not alone. As autonomous vehicles are becoming increasingly popular in Sunfront Cisco, some riders are wondering just how far they can push the vehicle's limits, especially with no front seat driver or shaperone to discourage them from questionable behavior.

50:29From some, that's a welcome imitation to test the auto. Autonomous vehicles limits. Megan, a woman in her 20s, took her first robot taxi on a recent late night excursion. It's also her first time having sex in a driverless vehicle. Just gonna pause there. What do you mean? It was also her first time having sex in a driverless vehicle. Like, that's a rare thing. Yeah. Like, that's not everyone's first. Yeah, man. Yeah, right. Okay. So the standard is not providing exact dates of the ride as the Bortuary to protect their privacy, but has verified the rides took place through documentation. Okay, so I'm glad that they've been fact checked and whether or not this happened.

51:05We got in and just got straight to it, making out said Megan who got into the cruise wearing nothing but a robe. One thing led to another and he made sure I was taken care of if you will. I was like, I have no wonder why I'm on and I'm ready to go in this kimono and I was using his slippers that were five sizes too big. This sounds awful. Have you ever tried to have sex in a car that's probably of the size of this autonomous vehicle is? No. Right. I lost my virginity in a VW loopo, which is increased the difficulty. that's such, I'm sorry, but that is get more of a UK car. Hey, be more, be more British.

51:50Yeah, be more British. You can't. There's no way. Yeah, let me tell you, man, like if you don't know what you're doing, not knowing what you're doing in a car is way harder. So I've seen those autonomous vehicles driving around in Austin. and so every time I see one, I have to take a picture of it going by it. It's crazy to me still. It's going to be crazy. Somebody's in case somebody's getting butt fucked in the back seat. Yeah, well, you know, that would be a buck fucked in the back seat of a robot taxi. That's going to be my romance novel, um, thinking of romance novels. That could be the sequel to a dict down in Dallas, but fucked in a robot taxi.

52:33Yes. And so I think that the easiest solution to this problem is you just say it's a public place, right? Even though it's private transport, but like you have to have public rules then because you wouldn't be you're not able to just because you can't see any driver in the place is empty. It's, you know, illegal to have sex in a subway or in, you know, any sort of tram or something like that. So this is weird too because there's cameras on the inside of all of those things, you know. So I don't know who gets it. Yeah, there's the cameras everywhere on those things. They have to be because someone could just come in and fuck up the whole entire thing and no one would know.

53:13It's like a bird scooter at that point. It's just a really expensive bird scooter. Do you reckon anyone's ever had sex on a bird scooter? Wow, it's moving. Yeah. No. Well, our friend fully face planted off that and it took like six weeks to recover. I know someone who had to have basically reconstructive teeth, like they're severed fucking nerves and shit in their teeth. They fell off a bird scooter, man. How awful. Me and you have done stupid things on birds driving. Yeah, but we're too athletic. That's a thing. Right. You are tempting fate that the next time that we're out. You can't teach this.

53:59Right. Yeah, you can't. This grace is unstoppable. Yeah, I don't know. The robot taxi thing, I would be very interested to see if this becomes a kink and if you start to see... Oh for sure, for sure will be. Yeah, like grinded up for cars. Whoa. Driver. Driver. Yeah. DRVR. Yep. Well that's a business opportunity. Yep, let's do it. Invest now. 69. 69 a month. What else you've been doing? Tell me about your trip to Japan. What was it like being there? Oh man, Japan was incredible. the best way to describe Japan is one moment that I had. And it was, it was, we all stopped when we saw it and we're like, okay, wow, this is Tokyo, at least Tokyo.

54:43We didn't venture outside of it, but this is when we realized like, wow, this is what Japan is about. This woman's walking her dog and the dog lifts the leg up to take a piss on this post. It's kind of like this barricade blocking this causeway where it's only walking and she takes out her water bottle that isn't it's a it's a literal water bottle that like It's like a dissonny basically with a spray top on it and she sprays down where the dog pissed I have never seen anything like that. There is no litter or garbage anywhere. There are hardly any bins for throwing things away the engineering of something as simple as an elevator, everywhere I went was ridiculous.

55:32So it's like you get in the elevator, you press where you're going, and then you're moving and you're like, wait a minute, did we start moving? And then the door opens. It's like, how did we stop moving? You can't feel it. That's how good the engineering is. It's like the process of being an engineer for an elevator must be so robust. The process, right? I got a cup of coffee at the place next to our Airbnb got into my Elevator that felt like a fucking spaceship was like Got down open it up took a left went right into my coffee this guy Made the greatest latte and I vlogged about it and people were freaking out made the greatest latte ever He measured out the ice cute.

56:16He like literally put the cup on a scale He had different spoons so that spoons wouldn't touch different of his ground up beans. This process and he was going pretty fast. It took like two, three, four minutes to make, but I filmed the whole thing. And it was the greatest latte I've ever had. And he didn't even think about it. He just handed it to me. He goes, there you go. And like, looks away. I'm like, bro, if I was handing this to someone, I'd be like, yeah, bitch, you're gonna like this thing. You know? Because I'm an American. I'm going to be like, yeah, I just killed that thing right there.

56:50You got to tell me how good it is, how good I did. That's just, their culture is just find things that are interesting or good and just be the fucking best at it and don't talk about it. You know that the world champion barista, the current title holder, at least the title holder in 2021 for a couple of years was Japanese. So I think that they have an unbelievably strong coffee culture. And whiskey culture too. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember the whiskey that we had when we went for sushi at? I love this story because we got the best, some of the best sushi I've ever had. And I did go to Japan. I probably had better sushi there.

57:30But we're not drinking at this. It's like a Tuesday. We didn't want to drink. So they come by after it and they're like, hey, does anyone want whiskey? And we're like, no, no, no, no, no. He comes back. Our waiter comes back and he's like. like, so this whiskey has been ranked number one in the world for the past 15 years. We had to put our names in two years ago to get a bottle of it. And then me and you look at it, we're like, well, now that you mentioned it, I'm going to say no. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, I'm going to have some whiskey now. It was literally the best whiskey we could have had. So yeah, there's a weightless, they only issue 50 bottles of this around the world each year.

58:08it goes to VIPs who know the batch, small batches, all that shit. Yeah, and then talk to me about, because I've never been to either, talk to me about Japan and Korea. Like, what was the movement between the two like? Yeah, so the flight to Korea, I think it's like an hour and 40 minute flight, super easy, sole airport, which our Inchon Airport is amazing. I think that I liked the Korean food and Korean culture more than I expected to. is definitely some place where I want to go back for sure. The people and the traditional culture, it is a pretty conservative culture there. Like you're not really allowed to be gay there, I don't think, it's not quite turkey level.

58:53There's obviously, yeah, it's like a little bit too much here, guys. But the food was incredible. It was incredible, it was probably my favorite food I've ever ever had in any like period. It was just Korean barbecue out there. Or is it? Yeah, I guess it's just barbecue out there. Yeah, and but it's like what they're Korean barbecue for us is like this big event thing, but for them, it's like they're just cooking the food for you and like walking away. It's like they'll just put the steak on the grill and cook it, flip it, and then they'll cut it for you and then they'll put it off to the side and they'll just keep adding more to it.

59:31So you just pick and grab when you're when you want something. It's that simple. Like, and yeah, we had that all the time. This one guy took us out. He we were drinking with him. Their drinking culture is absolutely insane. It's like, it's definitely alcoholic style of drinking. We show up. It's immediately five straight glasses of beer mixed with soju. Like back to back to back to back to back to back. And then we went out from there, but it was just incredible. Soul is a great city, definitely an underrated city, and Korea is going through this massive explosion. At the same time, their birth rate is the worst of any of the modern world.

1:00:17Correct. Yeah, there's gonna be 96 % fewer Koreans in 100 years than there will be now. Holy shit. And Japan is like this. That's not far. Did you see a single pregnant person in Japan or in Korea? I saw some kids in Japan. I saw some kids in Tokyo. I saw a child. And there was like a kindergarten that I walked by, a bunch of cute little kids just running around. Yeah. But Korea, no. I don't even think I saw a teenager in Korea. It's not good. Korea is not good on that front. It's really, really not good. Yeah. We used to have one of the big club nights that we used to run. It was an Asian sock, I think, and this couple of guys ran it and they were able to move 400 people, right?

1:01:09And that meant that they were like super, super, super high value to us, because 400 people in a nightclub's a nightclub, right? And then if you've already got a busy nightclub, that's just pure profit. So we would sort of grease the grooves of these guys and try and keep in with them as much as possible. and they would always arrive one 13 in the morning, like super, super late, and order just yeager bombs. All that they wanted was yeager bombs, but I'm sure you'll know this from fitness. Asian people lack a high proportion of Asian people, lack a particular enzyme that allows them to break down alcohol and they got Asian flush.

1:01:41And it's like a mild allergic reaction to having alcohol. On the most severe end, it can actually cause people to feel like digestive discomfort and they can throw up. And there's like the baseline wanting to throw up of just having a yagobomb or five yagoboms, like just a normal person who can digest this stuff will have that. And then you roll on top this, like if an enzyme and the Asian flour, all this sort of stuff. And dude, it was like every single time that they were coming in, there was a balancing act that me and my business partner had to make, which was 300 people, 400 people, fantastic, lots of sick, like lots, lots of sick.

1:02:21Shukin. Yeah, upstairs in the R &B room. So there was always this balancing act that we had to make, but it's really fascinating. I'd love to find out from an Asian person why alcohol is such an aggressive type of drinking. It's... Oh yeah, drinking. Yeah, drinking. Dude, it was... Dude, it was... No, I've never done a dinner like this. I don't think I ever will get. But it's almost, so just picture this. We sit down, we're like getting excited, they're cooking the meat. We have a bunch of big bottles of beer and soju, which is like kind of like watered down, it tastes like watered down vodka, but it's rice liquor and it's Korean.

1:03:05And he'll pour it in a glass that's like maybe eight ounces, maybe a cup of coffee -sized glass. and then he'll put in at least a shot of soju in each one of them and he'll hand it to you and It's so it's eight ounces. It's you know and and he will you cheers and then there's a bunch of interesting stuff you point your glass away from the elder Like the bottom of your glass you point away from your elder also when you're receiving a drink you have to grab it with your right hand You should usually just drink with your right hand And then you should probably hold on to your arm, or like basically your wrist or your arm or your chest when someone's giving you a drink when they're like your Did you ask why it's just out of respect?

1:03:50Yeah, why is that respect? It looks it looks pretty respectful actually. It's just like it's like bowing almost if it's like a very human movement like I'm really happy to accept this from you. So he did we did that you drink all eight ounces boom puts it down more stuff goes on it's like oh Shit you filled it again cheers It's as soon as he fills it he hands it to you cheers again and again and again then we eat a little bit Oh, I forgot we haven't been drinking again again again, it's chugging fucking eight ounce drinks The the thing was though I Am a 240 pound

1:04:32I don't really drink that often. When I do, I'll drink pretty hard and I'll party pretty hard, but I'm not an experienced drinker by any stretch, but he was getting hammered. We were all getting hammered, but he'd kind of bowed out a little bit earlier than I expected. For people who's part of their culture has been shrinking, which is super interesting, and that's interesting why you brought up the Asian flush thing, because I think that played a part in it, for sure. You can take a look at the way you're doing it, My old business partner used to take a tablet that I think helped to fix the particular enzyme.

1:05:07Interesting. The problem that he had. But yeah, I don't know. I wonder what people from career in Japan think when they come to the UK. Like look at me coming from one of the lairiest, most binge -drinking cultures on the planet, going, these Asian people. Drinking a lot. Yeah, no. Chris, I'm sorry, dude. Dude, I did a seminar. This is also part of my trip. I did a seminar in in Sunderland, but I was staying in Newcastle Literally on that street that you used to work on. Yeah, for the people for the people who know Newcastle He was staying just behind Avika just down the hill from LeVallo It was I have never seen nightlife like that.

1:05:49It was the loudest and Dude, it was people of all ages. They were like 40 -year -olds getting Oh my god, they were getting shit faced and screaming. It was nuts. That was binge drinking like I have never really seen. It's almost treated like a competitive sport. For sure, for sure. Yes, I don't see that like you do not see that in Austin. You don't know. No way. No way. We go on sixth street sometimes like if we're going to see comedy and stuff and sometimes there's, But even there it's not that aggressive man. It's not yeah, I suppose you are right if you've got some Bachelorette party in from Nashville wearing You know like I feel like the people in Newcastle are like oh fuck it's Friday.

1:06:36Let's blackout like let's I mean Did you ever used to have that because I remember well? Oh, we did we did I was like now that I say that Those words have literally come out of out of my mouth when I was younger. Yeah, it's Friday. Let's let's fuck us up Yeah, yeah. There was this thing, and this was one of the big changes that I had when I did sobriety. I went from having a Friday afternoon itch, which was this compulsion, this desire to party. Like I just wanted to go out and get fucked up. And even if it wasn't get fucked up, I just wanted to go out. Like I'd got to the end of the week, and I'd condition myself into, okay, it's a Friday, I've worked hard this week.

1:07:18therefore it's time to go out and party. And even if you take it moderately, a moderate session in the UK is still gonna be eight drinks, right, plus, probably. And yeah, it was every single week. You get to Friday afternoon and there's this, it's like when you know that you want a coffee, but for a beer. Yeah, dude, all I can say is there's certain, and the music industry, which I've tapped into a bit in Austin, it's like the excitement of Friday happens every night. That's when it gets really scary. Like you wouldn't expect it, but like your boys have a show at somewhere on Sixth Street or somewhere on West Sixth Street or Rainy or whatever, and you end up showing up and they're killing and it's fun and everyone's dancing.

1:08:09And then they're set ends and they want a party now, because everyone's happy, it's like. That's right up. Wait, it's a fucking Tuesday night, you know? And you guys are gonna do this on Thursday and Friday, Saturday, Sunday, it's crazy. When stuff like that happens, the entertainment business is for sure a dangerous one. I've also been in the comedian, tapped into the comedy. We were at the club, we were sitting in the green room with all those comedians, they're all drinking, smoking the whole time. So yeah, I think that cultural excitement, just always being excited is really tough. The highs are high, man, but the lows are very low.

1:08:51Yeah, I guess I was talking to Nick, mutual friend with the mustache, and I was saying to him about how he doesn't drink when he plays, he DJs, it must be so hard to do something that's adrenaline -fueled, and that's your passion. And you know, you've just left a crowd at two in the morning with them in this unbelievably hyped state. and you've been thinking and you've been focusing, you've been doing all this stuff. And now it's time to get into a quiet car and go home and you're birds being asleep for four and a half hours and you need to sneak in and you just lie there and stare at the ceiling and you just hear this loud noise.

1:09:32Yeah, it's really difficult dude. Like the nightlife industry is, and all sorts of entertainment that happened late at night is fucking unforgiving. I was messaging. and relatively thankless too, I think. Because it is transient in a way where like the people, so if you're in a bachelor party or a bachelor at party, you go in party and have the time of your life at these bars, but then you wake up in reality hits and you don't even want anything to do with those people, those things. They're hurt. That is super, super interesting. So especially if you're not, this is the difference, I think, largely between being a producer and being a DJ or by being a musician who plays gigs and a musician that makes music.

1:10:19Because if you're just there to be a soundtrack to the party, there's an upper bound on how existentially connected people are going to feel to you. They're not like, you're not changing their life. You might give them a really great event or whatever and you might even get famous off the back of it, but it's totally different to being someone who uses music that they listen to on the way to the gym or after they've had a breakup or that helps them to understand that they were, you know, that they were alone as a child. I cannot recommend this documentary enough. It is the Avici documentary because that is what killed him.

1:10:56Ultimately, I believe that's what killed the man was, there was a brilliant scene where he's arguing with his manager and he goes, I'm not doing Vegas. I'm not doing the residency in Vegas. And he's like, I kind of signed you up for it. And he's like, I don't fucking care. I'm not fucking doing it. I'm quitting. I'm not going to DJ anymore. I am not doing Vegas. Smash cut. Da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da. He's in fucking Vegas doing it. Oh. And they had a show counter on it. It was like, first, it was like, first 20 shows.

1:11:31He's fucking loving it. And it gets up to like 570 shows in like less. I mean, it was literally maybe a day off flying from, he would tour and then he would have his residency that he would fly back to. So the off days he was doing a residency. Yeah. And that was it right there. In this day and age, in music, this is content now. It's algorithm based. So you can get big and famous from the comfort of your own home. You produce content and you can get it out through social media. It's not about radio places, not about. Because of each, you came up through blogs. I don't know where blogs were like, I don't know if you remember any of those blogs that we used to get music off of.

1:12:19But they would promote these DJs and that's how they got big. And then they gig like crazy. But now there's Spotify's algorithmic. You have a good enough song that goes well on TikTok. it becomes algorithmic, it'll bounce around, you can stay home. And it sucks that a guy like that missed that. He didn't get a chance to hit that. And this life that he lived was not the life that he wanted. And he paid the ultimate price for it. Yeah, did that said. Yeah. I love that documentary and anyone who's I've seen it. Absolutely. Absolutely watch it. Definitely. I mean, I've told you this story before, but it happened on the podcast.

1:12:57Just fucking out. Four years ago, but it's cosy, right? So, Christ off. Our boy. Mitchell for Andevaaz, he's played for DJed for me for 15 years. And he told me this story on the podcast, which you can go back and listen to. Four years old. It's really great. It's an insight into the life of a touring DJ. I think it was a Wednesday or a Thursday, and he was in Argentina. And the next time that he was going to get to sleep in a bed that wasn't in the air was Tuesday. So it was almost a full week of sleeping on planes or in - Sprinter van sound, yeah, in vans or whatever. This is a guy who has played Madison Square Garden supporting Eric Pritz.

1:13:45He's got a residency this summer at a high Ibiza. I think it's every Tuesday with Adam Bayer and maybe Pritz there as well, or maybe Hotson 82 or something, as big as it gets before you get to absolute like insane superstar like Ed Sheeran of dance level. And you know, from the outside, it looks really glamorous, but he told me the story and he hadn't been sleeping all that much and he'd been like drinking and partying and stuff like that throughout his shows. And then he had this period and he got back and he couldn't sleep even though he was like super, super tired. And he was watching shopping channels like QVC and live TV shopping for some reason.

1:14:25And he couldn't work out why. And then he said he kind of blacks out. He has this blank spot in his memory. And then he came to at the local supermarket that's 24 hours. It's across the street from where my house, just down the street from where my house is in Gosworth in Newcastle. And he came to and he was sat on the floor of the toiletries aisle. And he had one of every different type of hair gel and hair putty laid out around him on the floor. And he was taking little bits of it and putting it on his head, scooping his hand in and slapping it on his head. And he had this thought in his head like, yeah, my hair's shit.

1:14:58Like, I need to try all of these different things. So he's putting it on his head and then he sort of comes to out of this sort of fever dream and looks around. And he's like, what am I doing here? Stands up grabs a floret of broccoli, 48 dishwasher tablets. that some walks out without paying for them, gets home and wakes up the next day to find hundreds, hundreds of parcels arriving at his front door for like little five -year -old girls crop tops and toys and lawn mower accessories and like an inflatable pool, all of these different things. And he just had a like a small psychotic break. Wow.

1:15:39Wow. And then he went to a doctor, it's presumably a psychiatrist. He said, yeah, that's a combination of sleep deprivation and a bunch of really, really... That psychosis right there. For sure. I would love to see what like his blood work was. Oh yeah, at that moment. That not is running through your body that's causing this to happen. Oh my God, yeah. Wow. Insane dude. And he was saying like, you know, from the outside, the DJing and your plane and everyone's got their hands on the air and they know the words to your song or they've listened to unspotted fire. They've come, especially to a beater to just see you and your set and maybe lesser with a residency, but certainly when you're touring, you said the reality is that you get back to a hotel room and you haven't eaten in probably eight hours and maybe you're drunk or maybe you're not and you're alone and it's dark and you order room service and you sit in your room on your own and you try and chill out and you try and wind down and you don't and then you eventually go to sleep and you wake up the next day, having only had a few hours sleep because you need to get on a plane to get to the next place to get up and you can't remember where you are.

1:16:47You arrive at the venue and you soundcheck and it's a different place with a different club and a different promoter but the same promoter and the same club in the same place because it is just over and over and over again. The guy meets you, he gives you a beer, he explains the club, you soundcheck, you let the warm of DJs go on, you stop hotying and the way you go. And Chris, the people who watch him are having way more fun than he is. The best part of being a DJ is being in the audience, yeah. Yeah. So this is a really interesting story. My buddy Pat, who you've met, he's an incredibly talented singer, songwriter here in Austin, and he's from Ireland.

1:17:26And he was opening for this singer, songwriter that I used to listen to back when I listened in a Pandora. I mean, that's literally 2010 or something where Pandora was the original algorithmic music. And one of his songs was so important to me. Like, I loved it. And then I found out that Pat was opening for this guy. His name is Joe Pug. And the song is called him number 35. And I watched Pat play, Pat was incredible. I watched this guy play, Joe Pug. It was very good, but it wasn't what I remember. It wasn't as this thing that I had thought it was gonna be, which is fine, it's okay. He played that song that I love.

1:18:14And then at the end, Pat selling merch, he's selling merch, and then everyone leaves, and I walk up to him. And I'm like, him number 35, I have loved that song for over a decade now. And the lyrics to it, every part of it was so mystical to me. I was like, what were you thinking when you wrote that? What is this song about? And his answer was, I don't know, man, I was just young and I just wrote something. And then he just kind of like walked away. And I was like, fuck, like, It really isn't important to him. It really like it kind it was then a little bit. But I have made this into something that it's important to me the lyrics in it are incredible it's an it's probably one of my favorite singer songwriter songs ever.

1:19:10And this the guy who made it. Had all you have to say was I was young when I wrote it and I don't know and just kind of fumbled off and walked away what's the lesson you took away from that. It's the same thing with Cosy. It's like the experience to somebody else with your art is just It's usually going to be much more valuable than your own experience Which is really crazy to think about really genuinely as as creators ourselves Somebody definitely has taken a Chris Williams in clip or video or something that you have done and it is much much, much more important to them than it could ever be to you.

1:19:50So that's probably right, but I would say from a creator perspective, I'm trying to think if this is right. I might go out and let me say that it's true. I think that being a podcaster is probably reducing down the pain of being a creator about as much as it's possible to do it. You, even the difference between being a YouTuber and being a podcaster, there's so much more performance required in doing the YouTube thing. If it's like, hey guys, welcome back to the channel. Today, I'm going to give you my top 10 tips for doing the this thing because you need to write a script. You need to write an outline and then you need to do take after take after take, fuck, I flubbed that line, fuck, that was the right, what was the thing that I'm supposed to say in that?

1:20:36And then you come back to it. So that's a level of performance. And then if you take it one step further and you go to Working on a nighttime as some sort of a performer some sort of a DJ your sleep patterns all over the place Are you actually making money during the day to people actually care about what it is that you're doing? There is a high price that you pay for it. We've spoken about this before even the guys that vlog the travel vlogging stuff that they do 50 % of the trip is lived through the lens of the camera and And until you get to the stage where you have a videographer following you around, which almost nobody, proportionally, nobody gets there.

1:21:12Even if you're Mike Thurston and you've got an amazing videographer, you've got Louis following you around and it's all cool and you live in Dubai or you've got a villa in Marbella, even then you've got to take time out of the experience to record the experience so that it's there. And it's like, okay, well, I guess in some regards you have this really cool record on your YouTube channel that's beautifully edited of all of the cool stuff that you did. But I watched this video a little while ago about how when you're not actually doing it is what you're saying, right? You're not in the moment. There's another element.

1:21:44There's a study that was done on people that take photos. And when you take a photo of a place or an experience, the brain drowns out most of the other sensory information and actually focuses more on the visual. So it's good. Not only that you have a record of it, but But it also focuses your attention into sort of a sensorial aspect down onto the visual. The problem is most of the things that you feel about an experience outside of just the visual is the smell of the guy smoking his cigarette down the street from the Vatican. And it's the sound of the street. It's so much more immersive. So yeah, you know, long story short, you're right.

1:22:29and I think that a lot of people take way more away from shows than their creators do. But the create is get to take as close to the audience as I think with pretty much any other art form because remember it's their curiosity that's driving forward. It's less performative than playing songs. It's less performative than doing YouTube. And on top of that, the price that you have to pay in order to do it, it's on your terms, it's your publishing schedule, like yet it's aggressive and there's fucking tons and tons and tons and tons of work to do. But I think of if you were to pick something out of the ecosystem, it's the one that's sort of the most holistic But it's also the one that's the least viral, which is why a lot of people don't do it Yeah, I mean they were they don't do it to your level because it takes while and you got you know There's luck there's talent.

1:23:13There's a bunch of things that come into play as well. Yeah, well you've pivoted right you've changed The style of content that you do as well. Yeah, that yeah, that was a risk But it was ultimately an important thing for me to do to try and branch out and do different things because I'm If people are attracted to myself as a creator, then they have to be attracted to actually me and I don't want to do you know this this audience capture thing That would just I think would ruin me. He's an interesting question. Do you think that Philip DeFranco is audience captured? Yes But again, he is reporting.

1:23:54So the variability of all of his reports, but he does much more so now. He adds in a little bit of his own life. He talks about, he one time he talks about his weight loss. He's talked about, you know, even when he talks about his merch and like the importance that it means to him, it's still like part of him. Yeah, it's the ultimate audience capture which your boy wrote about Gervinda Gervinda Gervinda Gervinda He wrote about Nicocato avocado that is that article I actually pulled up on my friend's podcast the other day. I just was on his podcast talking about audience capture And he defined it perfectly and the way that he described Nicocato was as Nicholas Perry the violinist veganist And then it obviously he turns into this glutton because he follows his audience capture.

1:24:49So ultimately we do, we are captured a little bit by our audience and that's okay. You have to perform and you have to provide a good entertainment service. It cannot just be simply for yourself. But at the same time, you do have to take risks and you do have to do things that not many people are doing. I've noticed your risks that you take that you think aren't risks, but they genuinely win we are. Like, you will spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for production. Yeah. Bringing some Harrison was one of the biggest risks that I've had recently, which is so crazy to say. Like, but he just has such a vehement group of people on the internet that really, really don't like him.

1:25:28And I've said it fucking a bunch of times after the episode, I had so much fun recording that podcast. I was like, caught myself at least twice grinning like an idiot when I knew that the camera was on him. Just really, really enjoying it and being like, this is fun. This is super fun. I love experiences like that, man. That's what it's really about. Any performance once you get into that groove of being like, oh, fuck, this is amazing. This is why I love doing what I do. I just made a video at the CrossFit Games where I'm lifting with two guys, two other... Oh, is that the Wall Street wait -lifted one?

1:26:08Yep. Everyone should go and check that out on Zach's channel. Yeah, and I've gotten more comments from people who are doing it like, this is your best video I have ever seen. They're probably newer reviewers. I have some really good ones from like the past five years, but the reason why was dude, we were having a fucking blast. I was laughing smiling. Like it was, I'm getting the chills thinking about it. I was like, this is why I do what I do. And it can't always be like that. But when it is and you capture it, it's like, that's why we do it. And it makes you feel so good. Hell yeah. Why should people go?

1:26:43They want to check out more of your stuff. Go to just search ZICK space TEL and ER in the search bar or you can go to youtube .com slash ad. Zach Talender. Coach underscore ZT is my Instagram. And then if you would like some programming, if you want to get a stronger squat, you want want to get generally strong or if you want to go into weightlifting, Olympic weightlifting, which I highly suggest, you can go to patreon .com slash Zach Talender. And if you want to listen to some banging tunes, such as Telander on Spotify. Oh yeah, I've got some stuff coming out. So yeah, all right, man, let's go to Soho House.

1:27:19I'm hungry. All right, bye. Bye.