#700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain

25:49I need to be looking at my hydration. I mean, Tom had his training travel with him on the road for months. Yeah. Yeah, Tom's really serious about his craft as his birth. They just have different approaches. And when it comes to fitness, by the way, I know as Bert is training, he's working out. I've been trying to get Bert to quit drinking alcohol for a while, not because I'm the arbiter of who should do what. I never tell people what to do. By the way, provide information, people can do what they want. I'm a live and let live. I want to be very clear about that. But it's out of care and affection for Bert that excessive alcohol consumption over long periods of time, bad.

26:24I mean, we can keep that one pretty brief. But Bert is working out. But Tom, I know because we talk and I spent some time with him that he trains. He trains hard and he sees it as integral with his writing, with his ability to show up for his family and business, et cetera. I mean, I think we're finally approaching a time in human history where we accept at the level of, you know, the scientific community all the way through to wellness and just generally that the brain and body are intimately linked at the level of what you, you know, if you want to improve your body, do something for your mind.

26:57If you want to improve your mind, do something for your body. And it's so clear now what we all need to do. I mean, we can get into the details, but at a macro level, it's clear that we should all be getting that 150 to 200 minutes of zone two per week or walking a lot. If you live in a big city, you're probably getting that. But then also getting your heart rate up to, you know, max heart rate once a week, doing some sprint type stuff on, in whatever format is safe for your body, some people swimming, some people throwing, some people running for me, it's running, but you know, not everyone will enjoy is running or can do it.

27:25And then everyone should be doing at least six sets of resistance training per muscle group, per week, minimum, hard sets. Too failure, okay, maybe, maybe not close to failure, are yeah, probably. And it's especially the groups that have been, let's just say a verse to weight training, right? Typically women, older folks, although now more women weight train because they understand that in the absence of a lot of injected or prescription anabolic hormones, they're not going to get enormous. That's the funniest thing for me. That's funny. I think that concept that, you know, if you one lifts weights that they're going to be getting used to.

28:01Do you realize to all of the women who are out there that are concerned about lifting weights because they're going to get too bulky? Do you know how hard I've worked to try and desperately become bulky for 15 years? Like I've worked really, really difficult hoping that one day I'll become bulky and there is, I think it's dissipating a lot now, but there was for a long time this fear that I would do a couple of bicep calls and you're going to look like the incredible Hulk. It's like me and my friends have really, really prayed for that to happen forever. You do not need to be It's not going to creep up on you.

28:32On one day, you're going to wake up and be the sort of vascular beast. A couple of things about that. I mean, from a longevity standpoint, we know that maintaining healthy nerve to muscle function, neuromuscular junctions is one of the things that resistance exercise does, and it's highly correlated with cognitive function into older age. And for those people, I guess going back to our earlier conversation, we'll probably do this a few times in the course of this episode. But the thing you want to do the least, that's actually the thing that where you stand to build up your AMCC the most. So for me, that would be language learning or learning of musical instruments to things that I love music, but I just it's just so hard for me.

29:11So it sits there on the shelf as a possible way to activate the AMCC. But in terms of actual resistance training, resistance training has an interesting property that I haven't heard discussed before that pertains to men and women who do it, which is unlike cardiovascular vascular training. During a resistance training, bout, because of the blood flow to the muscle, so -called pump, you get a little window into what the potential progress would look like. That pump dissipates, posts work out, and then if you allow sufficient rest and nutrition, et cetera, you'll get a hypertrophy response. But it's so unlike other forms of exercise.

29:47Like if I go to a yoga class and I stretch around, doing some movement, I get to that limit where I'm quaking and I fall over, it's very different than getting a picture of just how flexible I will be the next time. And then losing that until I adapt. With running your lungs, sometimes your throat burns as you pointed out. And that's showing you your limit. And of course, then there's an adaptation response that then allows you to perform at that level without the burning in the next time, right? If you allow sufficient recovery. But with weight training, it's kind of interesting. The whole pump thing was never something that I really drew me to weight training very much.

30:20But it's interesting because you get a glimpse into what the progress might look like. And so for, I would say for anyone who's worried about getting too big, unless your pump is bigger than you want to be, you're not going to get that, right? And so you actually get a window into how much potential size increase you're going to create. But it's so different than other forms of exercise in that way. It's like, what other thing in life? Like, if you took a language class and you're like, oh, I'm going to learn Japanese and you go and during the class, you actually become fluent for a moment. Then it's taken away and then you become fluent.

30:50So it's a very special form of exercise that offers some unique gifts to us as incentives for going back. But look as I say this, I realize some people hate resistance training in the love running. Some people hate running. They love resistance training. Some people I realize hate exercise. But if you hate exercise, you should do it anyway. AMCC. And you're getting the AMCC. So going back to what you think might be happening to someone like Tom, who is like a cognitive athlete, right? But largely the physical realm. Comedians, apart from, I guess, until Joe, which is part of the beginning of like the comedian bro, bro left a revolution.

31:29Before him, it wasn't exactly like, I wasn't looking to comedians as being the vanguard of health and fitness stuff like that. No, I was like, that, I mean, look at BaluCi, right? I mean, he was the epitome of lack of health. And sadly, God. So what talked to me about what would be happening to the brain of somebody like Tom, who pivots from being maybe 40 pounds overweight, I don't know how big he got it is, it is biggest, but lost a good bit of weight and it wasn't just losing weight. It was then gaining muscles. So, Dr. Gabrielle Lionel, world of muscle -centered medicine, he's going to benefit from that, the insulin sensitivity.

32:01There'll be some physiological changes, but talk to me for the people who are cognitive athletes. What's going to happen in someone like Tom's mind when he changes his body? Yeah, so improved blood flow to the brain. I mean, the brain is most metabolically demanding organ in the entire body. It consumes a ton of glucose. If you eat carbohydrates, yes, it can run on ketones, but blood flow through arteries, veins, and capillaries to the neurons of the brain is inseparable from cognitive function. So when you improve blood flow to the brain, you improve cognitive function, period. When you restrict blood flow to the brain, even at a micro level, you impair cognitive function.

32:38In addition to that, we know that several forms of age -related cognitive decline and dementia are considered nowadays. Some people even call it type 3 diabetes, although that's a controversial term. diabetes of the brain. This is why a number of people who have Alzheimer's go on ketogenic diets and get some degree of relief. It's not that, by the way, it's not a cure for Alzheimer's, but some people do better when they switch the major fuel source for the brain. But in the case of Tom as an example, but someone who gets into exercising regularly, both resistance training and cardiovascular training, you're getting improved blood flow, you're getting far less inflammation of the brain.

33:14Inflammation is cognitive depleting, reducing inflammation, cognitive enhancing. We all that's absolutely true across the board, right, in animal studies in humans. In addition to that, there are a lot of blood -borne factors, two of which I'll just highlight now, just for sake of time only, two. First of all, when we do cardio, that it positively impact brain health, in memory in particular. So when we do load -bearing cardiovascular exercise, so running as opposed to swimming, anything where the skeletal system is under some load, There's a hormone that's literally secreted from bone. I know we don't normally think of bones as endocrine organs called osteocalcin.

33:56Asterochalcin is released from the bones under these load -bearing conditions. It can cross the blood -brain barrier, and we know that it plays an active role in promoting not just new cell production, but because that's a more minor component of neuroplasticity, but enhancement of nerve health and function in the hippocampus, which is an area that's instrumental for the formation of new memories. So there's something about movement of the body that signals to the brain. Ah, we're, you know, we're moving, you actually need to maintain or perhaps even enhance your ability to remember things. And this probably is an evolutionary conservative circuit that exists.

34:31We know it exists in mice as well. So that's one one example. The other is that my colleague at Stanford Stanford Tony Weiss Quarry is best known for these young blood experiments where they'll take the blood or plasma from a young rodent and put it into an aid. or demented rodent and see improvements in cognitive function. And outside the United States, there are some clinics. By the way, I'm not recommending people do this. That have shown improvements in cognitive function or even offsetting of Alzheimer's and H -relate cognitive decline. This is led to the idea of vampires and baby blood in this...

35:02Drina Chrom. Yeah, Drina Chrom. Which is all crazy and conspiracy. I'm going on record saying that. But there's a recent paper that also from Tony's lab showing that if in animals that exercise regularly, if you take their blood or plasma and you supply that blood or plasma to aged or cognitively deficient animals, they, their cognition or their cognitive abilities improve. So there's something about blood of the exercised body that enriches the brain. It could be many different growth factors. It could be BDNF, brain drive, nitrophic factor. It could be things like IGF1, insulin -like growth factors.

35:40Probably give me a a cocktail of different things, as well as osteocalcin. And so what we want to think about is that when we exercise, and that's a broad statement exercise or word, rather, cardiovascular resistance training, it creates a cocktail that then crosses into the blood brain barrier that then creates a milieu of general growth, health, or at least maintenance of cognitive tissue that's there. So Tom's incredibly sharp, and of course, comedy requires not just memory, but also writing of new jokes, right? He's got to do Netflix specials for a long time and I actually went and saw him and asked him a small venue.

36:15I flew out there to see him because I want to see him in a small venue because then small venues is where comics often work out their new material. And I mean, just, you know, to me, it was just astonishing, like to see the number of different thought threads. And one thing that makes Tom's comedy so wonderful and other people like Richard Pryor to this exceptionally well too is that he can switch personas very fast. So he's doing his voice and he switches to his son's voice and switches his back and the speed and precision with which he does that. Very agile. Makes it seem we forget that they're very agile and then we've, he creates a panel of characters and then wipes that board away, right?

36:49He's the only guy up there wipes that board away and then creates a panel of new characters. And so, I mean, that requires a lot of like cognitive dexterity. So exercises absolutely one of the best ways to improve brain function over time. And in addition to that, there's been so much interest in, should we do crossword puzzles? Should we, why is it that some people maintain cognitive function? I think what's very clear to me based on all that literature is that it's not one specific thing. Crossword puzzles are social engagement or exercises, all of those things, but let's not forget the super -agers.

37:22The people who are constantly trying things that are difficult, that are pressuring themselves a bit to do things that are difficult. those people are offsetting as far as we know all of the major shrinkage of these brain structures that normally would shrink as people age. So we have a lot of control, but it does require effort. And I'll tell you, there's never going to be a pillar injection. Whether or not it's ozemic or something like it, but for the brain, there's just no way. There's no way that you're ever going to recapitulate learning and effort. And yes, it requires time, but it's so clear.

37:57I mean, I don't know how how many more papers in preclinical models and in humans one needs to see before they finally just bite the bullet and go with the lift weights. Lift weights and run or endocardial vascular training. It can't be one or the other. You know the stereotype of like the big, let's just say big guy who's dumb. You know, I don't think it's entirely, I mean, you need to meet some big folks that are smart, right? But there is something in the kind of broad correlations of people who, you know, people who tend to only do cardiovascular training. You know, maybe it's a selection bias.

38:33Like the people who are already avid readers are more kind of intellectual leanings, maybe get more involved in tennis swimming, running type sports, rowing because of the schools they went to or whatever. But people who just slip weights, it does seem as if over time, I don't know, maybe Derek Witalis, their neck is getting to big, they have sleep apnea. They don't seem as sharp and they're often mouth breathers. Look at the really big guys in the gym. They're often not strong in the middle. Not just between sets, not just after hard sets. I think they're also, they're fixating themselves in sleep.

39:06We know this. And then you look at runners and the people have the kind of like the really spelt and they, and sure they might maintain cognitive function, but their bodies are very vulnerable to injury. And they always seem to be complaining about what hurts. You know, is it like my friends who do a lot of extended training, unless it's David Goggins who doesn't seem to have the circuit for complaining? At least certainly not online. Yeah, there always seem to be complaining about injuries. So I think a combination of resistance training and cardiovascular training is, let's just face it, like you can't do one and not the other.

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40:49Coming back to the discussion about alcohol, which is one that you tried to interject with Berton, I think your episode that you released last year, back end of last summer, I think that really opened a lot of people's eyes to some of the risks of alcohol. I've been kind of flying the flag of it as a tool for productivity. To avoid alcohol. Yeah, that I think when you entirely or do you drink at all? I brought it back into my life now, but I did six months sober three times and then a thousand days without alcohol, too. But yeah, I'm seeing right now a huge pushback against unseen, unintentional drinking and I think that yeah, your episode last year opened a lot of people's eyes to it.

41:35Thanks. I mean, again, I don't tell people what to do. I give them the facts so they can make the best decisions for them. I mean, it's very clear that unless you're an alcoholic and provided you're an adult that, you know, two drinks per week maximum is about the upper threshold beyond which you're going to start getting some health. That's called a warm up to a warm up in England. Yeah, so I've never been a big drinker. I don't drink. I'm lucky that it's not something that's a strong draw for me. I mean, I have friends that are recovered alcoholics and their lives are so much better as a function of being sober.

42:10But for non -alcoholics, I mean, I think everyone should just know the health risks, especially women where the risks for breast cancer and other types of cancers are elevated so very much. And what was interesting to me about the response to that episode is that I think many people took it, the impression I got was that many people took it as permission to finally stop drinking or drink less because they didn't enjoy drinking. And as you, so beautifully put out on social media, drinking is one of the few activities that if you don't partake, people assume or accuse you of having a problem. And it's just wild.

42:46I mean, why would that be? And I think that, I think it also makes, once actually I was out to dinner with a colleague years ago, and I declined drinking, that even I was just talking to the, the visiting speaker. And she said, how that's so boring. And I, well, first of all, I don't have a problem saying what's on my mind without alcohol, right? I don't have, I don't have an excessive gabbergic inhibition. So I'll say what I want to say, you know, as best I can. But you know, I think drinkers don't like people who don't drink because it takes the fun out of it for them because there's this idea that's, you know, prolific on college campuses like if everyone's drunk that somehow like the entire like vibe of the party is going to take on a new flavor.

43:32And frankly, I went to a college, UC Santa Barbara, where at the time people drank a ton, a ton, it discovered alcoholics, right? And I used to go to parties sometimes and look around on things like everyone here is just blasted. Like if anything happened, did you drink it? Yeah, I drank in college, but not that often. I had to have it, and I don't recommend this. I had a habit of going out about once a month, and I would tie one on, you know, Absolutely. And frequent, but binge. Yeah, I never, you know, my tolerance alcohol was always such that I would get drunk quickly and then sober up really fast.

44:07So I was drinking late into the night, but then I'd sober up really fast. Now, of course, we know the sleep you get after even one drink is vastly diminished. Every single pleasant that's got an oral or a whoop strap or something is feeling you right now. And I think that alcohol, to me, never felt good. I never liked it. And it was a recipe for, you know, there was a lot of fights, there was a lot of, you know, there were a lot of bad stuff happens when people were drinking too much. I've run driving to say nothing of poor decision making. I mean, to me, it just feels like there's so, there are so many better ways to have a good time that that alcohol isn't necessary.

44:45But I do understand that it's a big part of many cultures. And I do understand that for many people, it's so part and parcel with of relaxing and with festivities and with feeling comfortable and with drawing a boundary between the normal day and the rest of the day. That's interesting. There's a ritualistic aspect to it. Yeah, there's a sort of it divides the day in an interesting way. So I'm not judgmental of it, but for me, I mean, I'll go to a party where people are drinking and just hang out on perfectly good. Dude, I've stood on the door of a thousand club nights in my career, right? There's a club promoter.

45:17And I can promise you, for the people that are thinking, I like the sound of this justification, this excuse that I don't need to drink anymore. Dr. Huberman has said that, you know, maybe it's not for you, maybe it's not as enjoyable. Nothing good happens in nightclubs after one in the morning. I am patient zero, I have the, I am the doctor of late night parties, okay? Like that's one of my expertise. Nothing good happens in a nightclub. It's this sort of messy, sloppy fights and kissing people you shouldn't and stumbling all over the place and stuff. If you go out and you don't drink and you go home at one in the morning, I think you probably get to capture about 80 % of the enjoyment of the event that you would have done had you have drank, pre -drinks gone out, done the whole thing.

46:07And I got a bit of push, I got quite a bit of pushback from a sobriety community a few years ago. I did this thousand days sober as a club promoter, which was I guess I could kind of a big deal in some regards for like pushing the sobriety community forward. But I was never doing it because I had a problem. I was doing it because it gave me more consistency and more time and more money to spend on things that I cared about. So it was a productivity tool like the Pomodoro technique, right, or going to bed on time or something. And they had a little bit of a problem, they had a big problem with the fact that I said, there is something to the enjoyment of drinking on a night out.

46:44I think anybody that says alcohol has no role in improving the quality of a night out ever just hasn't been on enough good nights out, right? There are ways that it can improve kind of loosens people up, it can reduce their inhibitions. If you want to go and dance, you know, you're dancing at a or a festival, which I think there's one going on quite close to here. If you're there, it's really great. But if alcohol wasn't so widely distributed, I think people would ask a lot more questions. It's like you can't see the word for the trees, right? You don't question it. It's such a, it's baked into the fabric of just human life.

47:23Every single time that I take a macrodose but low of psilocybin, one where I can still function, What is what is point seven five point seven five to one gram. So that's about it's a little less than half of the Macro therapeutic dose for for intractable depression, which is something like 2 .2 grams or so So you can still hold a conversation depending on what strain you've got but every single time that I do it Without fail a thought comes into my mind, which is why does anyone drink alcohol? Why does anybody do it? Because I'll go to bed, my HRV, my recovery's fine. The next day, maybe I'm a little bit tired.

48:00I've had a lot of activation. I've been super energetic. Very little hangover. On the evening, I don't do stupid things. It makes me want to say nice things to all of my friends. My thoughts are sharper than they were before. Sometimes they're silly, but they're sharper. And then you compare it with alcohol and it's this kind of sloppy, muddy, very unadjial. It's just, I totally get what you mean. When you've taken a little bit of time away from it and you look at it in the harsh light of day, the effect that alcohol gives you just aren't that enjoyable and it's been folded into people's lives through tradition and through just anchoring bias and continuation.

48:37Yeah, and marketing, you know, the idea that like someone can quote unquote hold their liquor is such like it's been made synonymous with, you know, masculine ideals. It's like, I mean, it's kind of crazy because we know it. It also crushes testosterone levels. What's interesting is that, you know, I forget who said this, but you know, there's a very different picture of a young drunk versus an old drunk. You know, someone who's been just drinking for too many years, it's not a pretty picture. They become infantile. They become really infantile. And you know, again, I'm not the anti -alcohol crusader.

49:13I did that episode not expecting much of response, actually. That shows just how out of touch sometimes I think it just to reiterate it, man, I think it gave people the excuse. What you did, you gave people the justification, you legitimized them. It's like the best bucks tell you something you think you already know. It was like, everyone always, lots of people always had an idea. Probably shouldn't be drinking. Maybe I don't enjoy it that much. Maybe these aren't my friends that just my drinking partners. Maybe I don't like the way that I feel the next day. Maybe my life could be better if I stopped drinking.

49:47There's the justification. Well, I'm happy to hear that for those folks, you know, now that the information is out there, I've, I was accused several times on Twitter slash X of taking all the fun out of parties in the, at least in the Bay Area, but I'll tell you, I grew up in the Bay Area, the good parties ended a long time ago. But there still exist, you know, I mean, I think they're, you know, and when I say other ways to have fun, I don't mean like, oh, everyone should sit around and do math or read neuroscience, although for me, that's fun. And you know, I think in the broader sense, I think there's a shift nowadays that people really think about how to engage socially in ways that are interesting.

50:23I mean, perhaps it's again a sampling bias because of the topics that I cover and who talks to me, but like in the Bay Area, there are these Russian bonias in New York. They're spy 88. By the way, they don't pay me a say this, but I like to go this Russian bonia down in Wall Street. You go there and you know, got hot saunas and coal plunge and people are, you know, young Some people are there enjoying themselves and they actually serve alcohol so they'll have sometimes they'll do like little gimlets of vodka or something there. So, you know, people sometimes that's part of the tradition. The most Russian thing that I can think of, shot of vodka whilst hot.

50:54Right. And you know, and they've got theories as to how that can help. And listen, I think some of those traditions can be really be wonderful. But you know, people are starting to combine socializing with health promoting protocols. and going out and eating good food together, like eating a really wonderful food with the social component. You know, I'll go into the grave talking about getting morning sunlight, something that maybe we should talk a little bit more about and there's people like roll their eyes. I'll just say there's this incredible study now just out in nature. Mental health published about 80, that has 85 ,000, 85 ,000 subjects showing that the ratio of getting a lot of sunlight during the day to getting minimal artificial light exposure at night, It really sets the tone of your overall system and is associated with brain and body that is and is associated with better mental health Outcomes across the board and the inverse right if you're getting too much artificial light at night We're not enough sunlight or both is associated with everything bad elevate depression anxiety, etc Now I do believe people should get out and have a good time Don't avoid the bright lights of a city or a club.

51:55Yeah, have a great time like dancing socializing Those are great reasons to stay up too late. Yeah, you can get minimal sleeper sleep in the next day the great reasons So everyone's in a while, sure, 20 % of your life, you're going to do that. Probably some percentage of time is also going to be raising kids. So you're up because you have to keep them alive, which is important to our species. So thank you. But I think people, you know, forget that yes, you can go outside and get morning sunlight and which I highly recommend. People do that as most people know. But I mean, so many benefits on mood and mental health and improve sleep that it just, and it's completely zero cost, you know.

52:29But I often get accused of, okay, well, but what if you have kids like how do you do this? Well, you take the kids with you because guess what? They need it too. You take them outside, you eat breakfast outside or at least facing a window indoors. It's not going to be as good as having the window open or being outdoors. But even if the sun's on the other side of your apartment building, I mean, these things have an outsized positive effect on health. And I'll later both upper limbs anyway, that many, many, many of the mental health issues that we see nowadays in young people and in adults is the consequence of disrupted circadian rhythms because of a lot of time in a two -dimensional screen space, which I'm not condemning.

53:07I spend time on and put out most of my content on social media and YouTube Apple Spotify, right? And in addition to that, the lights are too bright at night and they're not getting enough sunlight during the day. And an important thing to understand about our circadian slash health, you know, circadian system and health is that throughout, in the morning and throughout the day, your eyes are less sensitive to light and you need more of it in order to get what you need, okay, broadly speaking. And at night, your eyes are far more sensitive to artificial lighting and you need far less of it in order to disrupt your circadian system in bad ways, disrupt your mental health.

53:44Now does that mean you have to walk around with sunglasses at night and, you know, dim all the lights in your house. Well, no, but you could afford to dim them a little bit. You could afford to switch to the red light function on your phone. There's actually a triple -click red light function on every phone that maybe I'll pass the throughput of what to do to your phone, which allows you to accessability functions on iPhone. My goes to grayscale when I do that. Yeah, so you can have it switch to grayscale or to purely red. You know, eliminate the blues, a trick that my friend Rick Ruben taught me.

54:14I was like, oh, this This is great, you know, you don't necessarily have to purchase blue -blocker glasses or anything like that. We'll get back to talking to Andrew in one minute, but first I need to tell you about mud water. Mud water is a coffee alternative that tastes like chai and kekau had a baby. It's got four functional mushrooms, and with only a fraction, the caffeine as a cup of coffee, you will get all of the natural energy without the jitters or crash. Each ingredient was added for a purpose kekau and chai for a hint of coffee and hot chocolate -like flavor, lion's mane for focus, cordyceps to promote natural energy, and both charger and resheat to support a healthy immune system.

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55:28It's too damn not enough light for them during the day, especially not enough sunlight and And it's too bright for them at night. And they're also living mostly in a two -dimensional world of screens. What's the problem with the two -dimensional thing? Well, you know, we have an epidemic of myopia of nearsightedness, and it's been shown in a bunch of different clinical trials now. The first couple of them that were attacked, like most studies, something comes out, then it gets attacked, then there's a retaliation study, et cetera, that kids that spend two hours or more out of doors per day have a far lower incidence of myopia near -sightedness.

55:59And even if they're on iPads and books and computers, there's something about far viewing, about viewing things further than three or four feet away from us, for a significant portion of our day. It doesn't mean you have to be staring off into the horizon, but as opposed to near viewing where you're looking at something within about four feet of oneself, this distance that we're sitting across from one another is probably about four and a half five feet. It's not quite far viewing, but you think about watch people's behavior, look at how they go through the day. They're spending most of their time looking at things about a foot to a foot and a half away.

56:29And as a consequence, the eyeball gets longer. This is a well -established fact in animal models and humans. And then the visual image isn't focused onto the retina, the light sensing portion at the back of the eye. The image falls in front of the red, so -called near -sightedness, right? It's falling too near to the lens, okay? There are other, some people claim that near -sightedness has to do with the actual perceptual changes, but in any event. So, So fortunately that the eyeball actually can change in length. So viewing things further away can actually, especially early in life, allow the eyeball to adjust its shape.

57:02Amazing, just like the sinuses. There's plasticity of a lot of different organs. And so the point is that we need to get out and view things at a distance. If you're walking down the street looking at your phone, you're degrading the functioning of your visual system. Well, I told you, I think I texted you before I did it. I got laser eye surgery. I'm thinking, oh yeah, so you got the lasec. Yes. Great. And that's so the lay sick just to educate people is to actually change the shape of the eyeball somewhat in order to make it more perfect optically in a way that for many people allows them to not have to wear corrective lenses of any kind.

57:35Yeah, I can see everything I can see your ancestral trauma and and and full works now at a hundred yards amazing. Your vision is super sharp Correct. Oh, it's 2015. What was this? It was the surgery painful It's very interesting. So I actually videoed it. I haven't put it up because it's probably pretty uncomfortable for people to watch. That's never strapped you before. That's true. So they numb both of your eyes using numbing drops. OK. And then they come over the top with a kind of a large box on an arm. You know what? They rest the valve of the front of this box on the eyeball itself and then suck the eyeball onto the actual valve so that it can't move.

58:19They then use one laser to create a flap in the cornea, which is at the precise distance based on all of the tests they did in the days prior to that. They then take it off. You're still lying back. You have to keep looking at a green light that's above you. The surgeon will lift the flap, the front flap of the cornea up using kind of a soft pair of tweezers. The laser will then come in behind now the opened part of the cornea, do the corrective surgery. The flap will then get replaced and it needs to be very, very, very precise so that any slight nudge, I actually had to go and get the, I had to get my flap relifted a couple of days later on my left eye because a tiny, tiny, tiny little bit of oil from the top of my eyelid had been caught underneath the flap and it was causing a flaring of bright lights.

59:12And so I had to go back and actually get the flap relifted. Get this. The flap that they make can still be relifted up to three years later. Amazing. It's fascinating. And yeah, had it done on both eyes. Couple of one day of recovery, it feels very gritty for the people that are concerned about whether or not it's going to hurt them. And my recovery period was one day and I was able to, I recorded a podcast 48 hours in bright lights, 48 hours after. Was it an expensive procedure? Forgrant, GbP, so five grand USD. That's not a trivial sum. Not a trivial sum, but also given that it's literally how you navigate the world.

59:50And I was squinting. A lot, I was squinting at screens to have read the text. I was using really large text. The only reason I found out about this is because I went in for a checkup and they got me to do my eye test. And the lady turned and said, yeah, you, you legally can't drive without glasses. And I was like, What are you talking about? My vision's great. Like, my vision's always been like this, but she got me to do the thing and I thought, yeah, it shouldn't be, I should be able to read those huge letters that are only 20 feet away from me, shouldn't I? And sure enough, after this corrective surgery, 2015 vision, everything's razor sharp.

1:00:26The only considerations that I would say are night time viewing of bright lights, specifically street lights, cars coming towards you. you get a little bit of flaring around them. And that's because it's now passing through not just one piece of material, but there is a second cut. That supposedly dissipates a little bit over time. But I am flying the flag for laser -eye treatment, man. It's been a complete game -changing. My pickleball game's improved, which is obviously what was most important. Everything's really, really good. And I'm very, very impressed. And thank you to my surgeon for doing it.

1:01:02Yeah, so that this little flap, do they tell you how big the flap is? I can just show you the video. I can show you the video once we finish up. Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I think it's an interesting procedure. And we did an episode of our chair of ophthalmology, Jeff Goldberg. He was a proponent of it for people that are... I texted you. I texted you to make sure that the ophthalmologist guy with all of the dudes that know it, am I all right to do this? Jeff's amazing. Actually, we trained it in the same lab. He was a graduate student, I was a postdoc, then he ended up in Miami and then we'd conversion San Diego, then he moved to Stanford, I moved to Stanford.

1:01:37So he'll argue I was tracking him, I'll argue he was tracking me, but he's my chairman, so I'll just say I was tracking him. But a very, very smart guy, and I think, yeah, keeping your eyes healthy is key. This actually comes back to light. So there's some really beautiful data of Glenn Jeffree's laboratory at University College London. I'm known Glenn for more than 20 years. He's a spectacular vision scientist. showing that exposure to artificial red light, there's a lot of the, like the jove and these other red lights that are out there, cozy and these other red light systems, which by the way, I don't have any financial relationship to.

1:02:14The idea that red light could somehow enhance different functions of our tissues, or preserve different functions of our tissues, people think it's really biohacky. Like, oh, this is, people under red lights. But there was a Nobel Prize given for the use of long -wave length light for the treatment of lupus almost a hundred years ago. So the idea of phototherapy is not a new concept, but people love to kind of push it into the realm of biohacking and slash pro -science, but it's not. The red light therapy has been shown to have some positive outcomes for the treatment of acne, for scar healing and wound healing.

1:02:50Red light is long -wave length light, which can penetrate further through tissues than short -wave length light. That's sort of the argument there is that when you look at red light or red light is placed on the skin, some of it is actually getting into the deeper layers of the dermis. How deep is questionable. Some people argue they can even get into the blood supply if it's like on the wrist or so in any event. Glenn's lab has shown two really important findings. The first one they've shown twice in separate studies, and this is all in humans. The first result is that if people look at red light for two or three minutes, once or twice a week, in particular early in the day, it can offset some age -related vision loss.

1:03:30How? Well, the photoreceptors at the back of the eye are some of the most metabolically consum -metabolically active in, let's just say, energy -consuming cells of the entire nervous system, which is saying a lot because the nervous system is the most metabolically consuming, or a metabolically, excuse me, active organ. And so as a consequence, these really active cells create a lot of so -called reactive oxygen species. And that impacts, negatively impacts the functions of mitochondria. So viewing red light seems to restore some of the mitochondrial function by limiting reactive oxygen species in the photoreceptors and offsetting, and they've shown this some, not all, but some age -related vision loss.

1:04:07Presumably, you're not talking about looking at one of these red light panels, because these These things are like a fucking flat. It's huge. I am. I actually am referring to that. Wow. You want to do a distance that's comfortable, so several feet, right? Those panels for the people that don't know these things, they even provide you with the, like the, like the stuff for the, the sunbed that goes with them. Yeah. So you don't want to do this for more than a couple of minutes and you do want to blink and you do, and probably through eyelids closed, if your eyelids are thin enough and it's bright enough, it can probably get in nonetheless.

1:04:40But let me very very clear while I'll tell you the other result then I'll tell you why you don't need necessarily need a red light The other result which is more recent and is still under review so I want to be very clear But the data look interesting to say the least is that There's this old theory Like old theory that the French have really expounded that you know eating food outdoors is metabolized differently than eating food indoors Which sounds crazy right? I mean that's some level and yet this study shows that If people do this red light viewing while eating or in the minutes just after eating for just a few minutes, that the post -meal blood glucose level is significantly dampened, which is a good thing.

1:05:23You don't want big elevations in blood glucose or excessive elevations in blood glucose. Now, that all sounds a little bit at the edge of what we consider valid or reasonable. and yet if you think about sunlight, sunlight is full spectrum light. So this isn't saying you need to run out and buy a red light. If you get outside and get your morning sunlight, yes, it's going to set your circadian rhythm for elevated mood, focus and alertness during the day, improve sleep at night. But in addition, that you're getting a red light to your eyes early in the day. You absolutely are getting red light to your eyes.

1:05:57Now in very densely overcast days, say in the UK or elsewhere, you're going to really filter out the clouds. Everything that the red light. The joy, the will to live. As a consequence, some people choose to supplement their light with these red light devices. This idea that the French and others have argued, and I'm sure as I say the French said it, then the French will nod and everyone else will say, No, it's like it was us first or us also. It's probably multiple people throughout history, groups throughout history, but it does seem that there's something different about the way that food is metabolized if under different lighting conditions, which sounds crazy and I can already hear Lane Norton stomping in with his, basically Lane's brain sort of has like PubMed ideas.

1:06:43I think it's great by the way, Lane, we love you. And I love his sort of adherence to the brain to PubMed IDs, but these are published studies. I'll send along. You can tell me what you think, Lane. But the point being that there still needs to be more work on this, right? But it's always nice when some nicely controlled studies done by well -established laboratories that people in a field trust, like Glenn's lab, start seeing things once or twice over in multiple studies that really work well with what we know from naturalistic conditions. For instance, they're hunters, people that are adventurers, that are whose job depends on them being able to see into the distance.

1:07:26Camerain's. Yeah. Camerain's, these people maintain vision well into their older age. But just like me, who spent too much time in front of a book or a screen, who spent most of their time and have for many years looking at things down, I mean, for years I looked at things down on microscope. That was where most of my life was, down looking down the microscope, but also reading things at close distance. Well, you know, it makes sense that the eyeball would lengthen you end up with near -sightness. I do wear corrective lenses at night, especially if I'm driving at night. I've really worked hard to try to not succumb to the need for corrective lenses, because I'm trying to keep my vision health good.

1:08:01I don't want to become reliant on it, but you know at night I have to wear corrective lenses. Talking about the red light stuff, have you heard of hubam and husbands? Do you know what this is? Yeah, unfortunately, well, I should say that the most unfortunate thing about the hero room in the husband's post is that it was about is that it was taken by certain media outlets to amplify the idea that the audience of my podcast is just male. When in fact it's 50 % male female at least in the listenership. YouTube skews male, but we knew that anyway, but the listenership is 50 % male for two -cent. Few more.

1:08:37The hero room in the husband's thing was really about about how a woman was saying that she thinks she's the human husband because she does all these different things that are taken from that. For the people that don't know, the metamine around human husbands, which you can search on TikTok right now, is that the hot new thing that all of the wife's want out there is a husband who's into red light therapy and he does cold plunges and he does sauna treatments and stuff. So I wonder... So you guys, I'm trying to help you out. Look, dude, I wondered how you feel of a bunch of guys potentially cosplaying as Andrew Huberman in the bedroom, like the price of long sleeve black shirts has gone through the roof.

1:09:17You now have people fully lopping as you maybe they're telling their wife that they didn't get enough sunlight in their eyes as dirty talk in the bedroom. I'm not sure. I wondered how it feels to have this army of Andrew Huberman's from Wish now existing on the internet. So we covered the AMCC, it means interior, mid -singulate cortex, but I confess, even though I know that, I don't know what cosplay is, and I don't know what lurping is. Cosplay is dressing up. It happens that a lot of conventions, someone will go as Anakin Skywalker or Pikachu or whatever, and lopping with life. It's life - It's sexual titillation.

1:09:53Sometimes, but not always. So this is like the action hero variation on furries? kind of. Yeah, but it's not. For instance, more Lexus domain precisely. Yeah, we know that well. And then lobbying is. But we don't know it well. Fortunately. Live action role playing, lapping. So that again is this kind of, I'm saying there are potentially, there is potentially a market out there. If a guy is struggling in the dating world to take the aesthetic, get fully hubam and piled. And then there is a huge huge potential demands amongst the wives out there. Okay, so this is news to me. One thing that's come up recently in discussions with some traditional media outlets, but also just generally, right, is to what extent is all this focus on health?

1:10:50Does that change something about masculine, feminine, dynamics? Like the traditional stereotype of men was that they're tough enough to not need to engage in any self -care, right? They don't need sleep, they can drink a lot of liquor, they'll eat when there's food, they'll eat whatever, they don't like going to the doctor, right? This is like runs very counter -current to the kinds of things I talk about in my podcast. Like, hey, get up in the morning, get some sunlight, right? Lift weights run, and I should point out that none of what I've talked about with exercise ever, of course, there's an aesthetic component, right?

1:11:24limiting body fat to some extent, right? Not having excessive body fat. Resistance training, as we know, is an incredible way to adjust those ones aesthetics. If they feel like their proportions aren't where they want, or by the way, guys train your neck, clearly Chris does. I mean, nothing looks more ridiculous than like wide shoulder body neck. Big guy, tiny neck. And a head with a little neck. Hansel neck. I mean, it's just, it's crazy because this is proportionally, you see it, and you're like, this is, it's the, it's the male equivalent of the BBL. Well, if you have like a, I'm teaching you.

1:11:55I'm so happy that I get to teach you more. It's also like class for me. I've got a class plan for you. You've got, you know, so this is the Brazilian butt lift. It's kind of like the bum equivalent of a boob job. And they have an implant for the glutes. I think that they actually take fat from elsewhere in the body and then put it into the, it's the risk, the surgery risk if this is really quite high. They just do like hip thrusters or something. No, no, no. Isn't there that there's, that takes too long. There's the Brett Contreras, a glute guy. Yeah, he's very popular. He puts glutes on people, but they actually put them on themselves because they're the ones doing that.

1:12:28I think the doctor technically puts it on them, but yeah, and it kind of looks because there's no associated leg development with the glute development, it's kind of like if you put two basketballs on upturned baseball bats. So you have like a leg and then you have like that. Ridiculous. It's, I've seen some, I went to Miami for the first time a few months ago and I saw one that kind of terrified me. It looked like a bag of cats from behind in a set of leggings. You know, like you could kind of see sort of pause coming out like this. Pooly finished. I would say. I just, it wasn't good. Anyway, my point being, neck for guys need to have it proportional to the shoulders.

1:13:08Yeah, I mean, yeah, I was sort of taking digs at people that don't train their neck. It's also life insurance, right? I had an accident a few years ago where I fell off a second story roof and I walked away from it because I've long done neck training because I injured my neck when I was younger and even if you don't do fight sports, I don't do fight sports, but wouldn't be aligned with my role in needing my brain. I got nothing against people to do fight sports, but that's a choice that I've actively made, not to do them anymore. But neck training is really important for just... What's the AT -20 of neck training?

1:13:42What's the biggest move is for improving your neck? Well, first of all, I'll tell you in a moment, but I think that, you know, remember that your neck is your upper spine. So people are big on training their abs, you know, for spine stability and lower back hopefully as well, for spine stability, the mid -theoratic regions as well. But you know, it's your upper spine and you want it strong and you'll get much stronger in other things as well. Everything's better. People's posture is far better when they train their neck. It actually changes the tone of people's voice. And I had a guest on my podcast, Dr.

1:14:13Eddie Chang, who's our chair of neurosurgery at UCSF. I've known him since we were kids. He's a phenomenally smart and creative guy. And I've asked him about this offline. You know, why is it that neck training does that? Well, you know, the voice change that occurs in boys when they, when they develop and go through puberty is a thickening of the vocal cords that's angiogen dependent. I have this weird mutation. I've talked about this a little bit, but maybe not that on a program as broad as this that actually I have the same voice I always had from when I was a little kid. my voice never actually changed.

1:14:42I have an angiogen receptor alteration. Okay. So fortunately for me, like doesn't cause any other issues, but this was my voice when I was five years old. How terrifying. Yeah, they call me froggy. Yeah, it was kind of a joke. I go like the kid on the little rascals that was froggy. In any case, but for most people, they hit puberty and then their voice changes because of the thickening of the vocal cords. But obviously I had some early angiogen exposure. That was clear because I also had hair on my Adam's apple when I was like four years old. So there was some early androgen exposure. Not going to fuck with that foliar.

1:15:14No, I was a I was a kind kid until I was a teenager. And then I eventually I'm greeting. I went through it. But, you know, I was I was kind nonetheless. But in any event, when you chain your neck, actually, it does improve posture. And it actually changes the timbre of your voice somewhat. But for the people who speak a lot for a living, podcaster, singers, actors, etc., lawyers seem to talk a lot. You don't want to do a lot of really heavy neck training because it actually changes the way that your jaw moves and the way that you speak. You know, especially like my solo podcast, it sometimes takes me 11 hours to record.

1:15:53So you want to maintain healthy air flow through this region, right? But the best way to develop a strong neck safely is to, unfortunately, stay away from bridges, which wrestling coaches love to give. The discs can be injured. You can cause dysfunction in the discs and then the pain comes on in a moment and then you're your hose. Best thing to do is take a plate and start really light lie on a bench. Stabilize yourself by putting one arm down. Okay, so you want to close the chain, so to speak, if you can get a foot down as well. And then put that plate, you know, probably start with a five or a 10 pound plate, wrapped in a towel so you don't end up with an imprint of the five or 10 on the side of your head or face.

1:16:32And then you're just gonna go from neutral position, which is your head, you know, essentially straight up and down, but you're lying on your side to just, you know, about maybe 30 or 45 degrees. You aren't like really cinch into it. And you want to keep this is important. Keep your tongue on the roof of your mouth, your jaw shut, so that your jaw and moving around because some people do neck work and then they'll get clicking of the jaw, they get pain in the ear. There's, I've spent a lot of time with skulls and I can tell you human skulls and other skulls by virtue of my work in neuroscience and dissecting stuff.

1:17:00and I have kind of a obsession with craniofacial stuff as well. And there's a lot of musculature and ligaments of the skull that have to be contended with. So tongue on the roof of your mouth and you're just going to nasal breathe and you're not going to failure, you're not training really heavy, higher reps in the 10 to 25 repetition range. Three sets. Yeah, three sets and then the other side. And then rather than doing a lot of forward neck work, which people are already doing because they're doing a lot of phone reading and shaping themselves like a sea, you want to lie on your stomach and put a plate on the back of your head and get into that, you know, the neck extension straight back.

1:17:34Okay. But not pinching or wrenching your head back. Movements like where you're creating some torsion up into the sides like this is a little more dangerous. I don't recommend. The person has great tutorials on this and many other things as well as Jeff Cavaliere, AthleanX has a great neck tutorial. You may get linked to that's where I learned it. Over time I worked up from a 10 pound plate. I can do five or six reps on each side with a 45 pound plate. Like hitting me. I put a 40, that's 20 kilos for the Anglicans. Yeah, so I'll do that and I don't say that to be tough raining, but the idea for me is to just have a really strong neck so that also for pressing movements and pulling movements, you'll get much stronger there.

1:18:11Well, listen, the bar has now been set for the fledgling cuba and husbands out there. They know that the neck training is a important part, black shirt, neck training, bit of a beard. Well, the black train, well, to be clear, And women should probably train their neck as well, but lighter, you know, for static reasons. And if they want to have a bigger neck, they can do that. But I think most women don't want their neck. This is one muscle group that does tend to grow pretty quickly. Is that right? Yeah, it does. And then the other thing, and this looks ridiculous, but that fighters know it's very useful, is that there's the kiss the sky thing where they'll actually look up and, you know, and you'll feel it in the deeper muscles of the neck.

1:18:51So that kind of thing is again, you know, some people use a towel for this stuff. They don't have access to weights, but neck work is really key. Just like ab work is key. Just like lower back work is key. Just like tip work is key. Knees over toes guy, you know, love his content. Ben's amazing. So the smaller muscle groups are not going to be the mainstay of any workout, but they become so important when you're thinking about longevity because they are the muscle groups that tend to cause if not trained shin splints, kink in the neck. the king of the neck is obviously not a technical term, but pain in the neck, the turning in the shower after doing heavy pressing and then like you're out, your neck, you can't turn your head.

1:19:28The lower back pain, sciatica often lower spine stabilization issues. I really think Jeff Cavaliere has some of the best zero cost content on this that I followed his content for years. And you know, if you put in for instance, sciatica low back pain, he has diagnostic tools there that really help you establish whether or not it's truly lower back pain, or it's a medial glute issue, and gives you the proper things to do. And Neck is just one piece of the equation. Getting back to Hubertman husbands. Yeah, I chuckled the first time I saw it. I think it was a little frustrating to me because I thought, wait, there are a lot of women that do these protocols too.

1:20:03Our protocols are, we have had some male hormone health episodes, some female hormone health episodes, but in general, we're just talking about stuff that's applicable to everybody. But listen, I don't control the internet. I don't make the rules out there. And then traditional media amplified the Hubertman Husbands piece through a couple of other rules. And the next thing you know, that's right. The black shirt I should just say is because I try and as we've talked about before, I don't want to add my tattoos to distract. I got a lot of them. I want to focus on content and teaching and people hearing the content.

1:20:37And the black shirt is something I did long before I had a podcast. And that's because the great Joe Strummer, singer for the clash, my scolaroes, wore a black button down shirt while he would do full shows and he'd be soaking wet. It was like the punkest thing I ever saw that he was like doing full shows like belting it out in long sleeve shirt. In long sleeve black shirt and he was just literally the shirt was like stuck to his body and I was just saying like not only is he an amazing humanitarian writer poet, singer for the clash creative, miss him, he's gone but he's still here through music right as they say.

1:21:07and he's just so punk, he's just up there in his 40s or late 40s, and soaking wet, and I'm thinking like, that guy, like he's got it figured out. I'm gonna do. So anyway, and I like the black shirt, what can I say? Well, get back to talking to Andrew in one minute, but first, I need to tell you about AG1. AG1 is a product that I've been using every single day for over three years now. Dr. Huberman himself is a massive fan because it is the most comprehensive, foundational, daily nutrition supplement on the market. My digestion is so much better since I've started using AG1 and I genuinely can't remember what life used to be like, but when I stop using it, I do not like the way that my body feels.

1:21:48Since 2010, AG1 has led the foundational nutrition revolution continually refining their formula to create better, smarter ways to elevate your health. AG1 is the supplement I trust to provide the support that my body needs every single day and that's why they've been a partner for so long. If you want to take ownership of your health, It starts with AG1. You can get all of this with your first purchase, a free, your supply, a vitamin D, five free travel packs, free pots, shakers, and that 90 -day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1 .com slash wisdom.

1:22:23That's drinkag1 .com slash wisdom.

1:22:31How concerned do you think we should be about vaping? spoke about alcohol. It seems like there's this big vape is on Netflix at the moment. It's a documentary about the rise of dual and I'm only one episode in, but it seems like vaping is now catching an awful lot of attention. How concerned do you think we should be about vaping? Yeah, so I'm just taking a note here. I take notes during our podcast. us highly intense, it totally makes sense. Just the things I can go back to, we should be very concerned. So when it comes to smoking or vaping, the thing that's being consumed, the thing that people are trying to put in their bloodstream, nicotine cannabis, et cetera.

1:23:16And let's just set those aside. I've done episodes on nicotine and cannabis, and they have their application, they also have their problems. Vaping is terrible because of the other chemicals that deliver to the lungs. It's also very clear, and we haven't released this episode yet, but I talked to a female hormone doc from Austin, Natalie Crawford, so OB -GYN. Vaping is associated with disruptions in egg health and what they call egg quality can create certain mutations in eggs and serious endocrine issues in women. Okay. Personally, I find it disgusting. Like, I just find it like, I don't do it, but when I see people vaping, like to me, and listen, I used to, when growing up, I quit smoking a long time ago, but I used to smoke a bit of nicotine growing up.

1:24:02Remember I was a wild one, but that's not why I did it. I just, you know, nicotine works for me as a drug, and I don't do it anymore. But vaping is so addictive. It's a mutagen. It mutates the genes of cells. It mutates the genes of rapidly dividing cells most. So breast cancers, ovarian cancers, egg quality, sperm are constantly turning over. So people always say, oh, well, I vape all the time and I got so -and -so pregnant or whatever. When I say, I have a perfectly healthy kid. That kid might have been much healthier. And also, the kid's not grown up yet. Like, introducing me to the kid later.

1:24:38I wish for that kid. I pray for them. But that their healthy is can be. but it is so clear that you're introducing a laundry list of toxins to the lungs. And they're getting into the bloodstream and there are a number of them that cross the blood brain barrier. And once they cross the blood brain barrier, those neurons, by virtue of the fact that neurons don't turn over across the lifespan, you've born with the ones you're going to die with. You might add a few across your lifespan, but you're mostly born with the ones that you're going to die with. Well, they're going to harbor those chemicals and those particulates.

1:25:09And, you know, yes, we have a grandparents that smoked and lived to be 90, but you know, those are generally the outliers. So I can't find one good reason why people should vape. If people want nicotine in their system that badly, and here I'm not recommending that, they would be much better off relying on a troture of patch. Or even toothpicks or injectable. I know people I'm not going to out any nicotine. Oh, I'm not going to out anyone here, but I know people in our podcast community, that rely on nicotine injections for. That's hot. That is so hot. Yeah, I don't. It causes elevation and blood pressure.

1:25:46It causes these constriction, but it also will robustly increase focus and attention. That is what we'll tell you. I'm not lining nicotine. Yeah, you're starting to see some companies that offer things like NAD infusions also offer subcutaneous or nicotine injections. Going back to the. Or patch or gum. Yeah, smoking for a very long time everyone knows Huge campaign which I think was pretty effective actually it's kind of discouraging people from smoking or at least Making them aware about the do you remember how they got kids to stop smoking? They told them for years it was bad for their health that didn't work they told them that it was Putting money in the pockets of these like of like these old cackling white guys that were like rubbing their hands in a kind of bluer room and making a ton of money and then it became the rebellious thing to quit smoking.

1:26:38That would be effective. I think about this all the time that there was a big push to both disincentivise and make more different smoking. Make more difficult smoking. Go to go outside. There's the smoking area. I remember I worked in clubs one year before the smoking band came in in the UK and then people had to go outside, you know, just friction, friction, friction all the way down. And then vaping came in. And vaping is way more enjoyable of an experience than smoking ever was. You can have a higher dose of nicotine that tastes, you know, enjoyable, bubble gum flavor and raspberry unicorn dust and whatever, whatever.

1:27:16I don't know. And it's not going to stink the house out. You know, you don't have any of the externalities of that. So I wonder whether we have ended up in a net benefit on that cost for public health from switching from smoking to vaping. Yeah, there's an analog here with, you know, cradum and opioids. If you really want it, we just got to put ourselves under attack by even bringing up the topic, but I did it intentionally. You know, there are things like smoking and opioid addiction, which are, it's unequivocal, it's just terrible, right? crushes lives, destroys lives. Yes, there are those rare individuals who smoke their whole life lived into their 90s, but they are outliers.

1:28:04So the question is, is vaping allowing fewer people to smoke and therefore improving their health? Maybe if they're hellbent on getting that nicotine or cannabis into their system and they're opting not to smoke and they're vape instead, then maybe we have to be objective and say, okay, if there are absolutely intent on getting it in through some inhalation device, vaping is probably better, but we don't know that for sure. We actually don't know that. And then since I brought it up and I really put the target on myself with this one, you know, I did a post about cratum, which is over the counter.

1:28:39People will say it's not an opioid. It taps the opioid system. It taps other systems as well. Well, in a number of people have indeed managed to get themselves off of opioids using cratum as a bit of a bridge, kind of like the methadone heroin thing. But the cratum advocacy groups are really growing strong right now because there is the possibility that cratum will be made illegal in the not too distant future. And there is the reality that some people who were never opioid addicts have taken cratum and then get addicted to cratum. And then people start arguing, is it real addiction, is it habit forming, et cetera.

1:29:15So I think the next year or so is going to be an interesting time for dialogue about creative. I have a couple of guests coming on my podcast. Maybe you'll do it as well. And I'd love that if you would. There's one thing, by the way, folks, that's so great about the podcast space, unlike other professions. We love it when one topic or one guest shows up on multiple podcasts because it actually doesn't hurt any of us. And you've sent me in the last few months, you sent me a poll conty. You've sent me Rick Rubin. It's and everyone's got a different flex, right? the conversation you're going to have with Rick or Paul is going to be way different to the one that I'm going to have, which is going to be way different to the one that Joe's going to have.

1:29:47Yeah, it's a very different thing than academic science than journalism of other kinds. Is he awesome. The idea, it's a no scoop, like an academia or journalism, they say, oh, you know, who got the scoop? Or you got scooped, someone else put it out first. In podcasting, it's quite the opposite. So I think the cratum versus, This is, I mean, the cratum topics can be really interesting and important to cover. But I think, look, my vote is to not vape. I think I'm just shocked at how many people vape. And first of all, it's actually not unlike cigarette smoking. It's expensive. That's not the main reason people avoid it.

1:30:25But it's a significant expense when you add it up across the year. It's clearly addictive. There's another question about it. It's clearly detrimental to lung function. And then people like how it makes their brain feel. And they think that if they're already pretty active, physically active, then they can offset some of that. And they probably can, but I think in the next five years or so, we're just gonna see a slew of studies showing that vaping is just bad for us, especially for the developing brain, because it's bringing in at a very rapid rate, high potency nicotine and high potency cannabis.

1:30:56And you know from Monolemchi's work, and we know, my colleague at Stanford, that the slope of that increase in dopamine and epinephrine adrenaline, and acetylcholine is so important. The sharper that slope, the faster the rise, the more addictive potential these compounds have. And so it's so far and away different than the kind of dopamine or epinephrine or acetylcholine increase that one sees with exercise or with cold plunges or with sex or with these other things or francing and things. So, and one of course could be addicted to any of the other things I just mentioned too, but the potential for it is far less than something like vaping.

1:31:32Here's my stance on it that I understand maybe of the two evils vaping is less of an evil than traditional smoking would be, but I think the enjoyability, the accessibility, the fact that it isn't as stigmatized, all of that, I think that it wouldn't surprise me if more people are now going to vape than ever previously smoked. And even if the difference between the two is that vaping is better, that the total area under the curve of public health degradation, I think that I think that we've netted a loss overall for vaping. And I see, dude, I go to a comedy show and I find myself going and getting an escobar before and I'm like, why is it just happening?

1:32:14It's like a disposable wave. So you do vape? I do it if I go to a comedy show and I'm not drinking and I'm tired. So there's like a certain little decision tree that I go through. I'll do it maybe once a month, something like that. What do you vape? Whatever disposable, unpronounceable, horse shit is available. What if it makes my friend popular? Nicotine. Nicotine. We're in California, so people talk about cannabis. Not in Texas. Interesting. Yeah, I think rapid onset of these neuromodulators in the brain concerns me. It's just so different. Also with behaviors, you can titrate. People will say, video games cause a huge increase in delving.

1:32:58Okay, fine, but you can limit the total amount of time that you engage. I think with substances, even though you can control dose or number of, what do they call it on? It's not going to be like a toque on the vape pen. What is it? It's going to be like a draw. I don't know. I'm going to go to the language. Vaping, larping, cosplay. I've got that. You know, we're teaching you everything today. Everything I need to know. This is good because I'm going to be able to navigate the internet. Fantastic. It's talking about the internet. How worried are you about how technology is impacting people's ability to focus?

1:33:27Yes. Adult ADHD is clearly upon us. It's just clear and so very, I'm very concerned. You think that that's induced or facilitated or worsened by technology? Tell me what's going on in the brain. How is technology able to make such a dramatic change? I think if we, let's turn it on its head, I'm not changing your question because I don't like it when people do that to me. Answer what you want. No, it's the last question on my podcast and people will flip. They're like, I'm going to give you a different question. and answer that one. And I was like, okay, like that. I'm gonna answer your question in a different way.

1:34:01The circuits in the brain that are required for setting and maintaining focus

1:34:09are inhibited by the process of deliberately shifting one's focus over and over and over throughout the day. In other words, if ever there was a physical activity that could undermine your cardiovascular exercise, I mean, it turns out not to be the case, But there was this idea a few years ago that if you sit a lot during the day, it doesn't matter how much you exercise, it's not going to make a difference. That's not true, right? Exercise still helps. But we also know that moving and standing, standing up and sitting down quite a lot throughout the day, getting as much, you know, little walks and things like that is extremely beneficial, and can amplify the already known positive effects of exercise.

1:34:46Okay. Well, when it comes to focus, I mean, much of what our schooling is about growing up is not just the content that we're taught, but our ability to sit still and pay attention, to keep the body still and to focus, to some extent, keep the body still. Some people just circulate more of the Italians and the, you know, in certain Arab countries and things like that. And other people are far more still. And we get back to this about body stillness a little bit later because there's some emerging ideas on that that are worth touching on. But the point is that if one is constantly moving their attention from one thing to the next, it undermines the stability.

1:35:23of all the circuitry in the brain that's responsible for prolonged focus. Now, I partake in social media, so do you, but the scroll function is a practice of shifting focus while maintaining gaze in one location. Right? Normally, we would shift focus by looking here, by looking there. I mean, just for try this for 30 minutes tomorrow, if folks listening to this, take 30 minutes of your day and decide you're that you're only going to exist in the three -dimensional world, meaning you're not going to look at screens for 30 minutes. Obviously, screens your phone has a depth to it, but you know what I'm talking about.

1:35:58You'll notice that your attention is shifting all the time. You're looking at brick wall, then there's this and there's you. But it's all harnessed by some sort of a conceptual goal or physical goal, trying to get here, finish a conversation, complete an answer to a question that's all within a tunnel of motivation. When you're on your phone and scrolling, and I think scrolling itself is the major issue, when you're scrolling, you're essentially putting yourself into new context after, new context after, new context, and the brain has to adjust to all of that. And the way that the brain works in addition to controlling heartbeat and on -and -off function, et cetera, is think about it sort of like a hair, I don't want to diss it, but I went, I took my sister, I see the Harry Potter play recently in New York, and while I wasn't a big fan of the script at all.

1:36:47Was this the half blood something? What was it called? Yeah, I was the, what is it? The like the cursed child. Cursed, yeah, yeah. Me, me, Jordan Peterson and Douglas Murray got thrown out, and me, we got thrown out of that during COVID. I've got to tell you the story once you're done. It's one of the phenomenal thing that I saw. So you went to go and see it too. My sister liked theater and we go to New York each year for her birthday and I took her to this show. And I wasn't a big fan of the script, to be honest. I only read one of the Harry Potter books, liked it, but then abandoned it. But she really likes the Harry Potter stories.

1:37:21I wasn't a fan of the script. It's just my uninformed opinion. But the effects were spectacular. Okay. And one of the things that occurred to me, they had this library there where the books are alive. And as I was watching this, I realized that's very much how the brain works. That, for instance, when you walk into a room, it's a new context. And it would be the same as if you were walking through a library. And let's say you go to a soccer, your team football game and you sit down and also that your brain calls up all these books about your opinion soccer and your favorite team is right there.

1:37:56And then you open that and then all of a sudden you're looking at that, something about your favorite team, what's your favorite team? Newcastle. Newcastle, okay. And then with unbeknownst to you, unbeknownst to you, this is the important part. The books all around you, not the one you're looking at, are now changing to the competitors and the history of that team, but also who's the directly antagonistic rival team. Sunderland. Sunderland. Sunderland. Okay. Sunderland is baby. Okay. So that's the way the brain works. It's calling up context so that it makes it very easy to flip to a discussion about a particular rival, or even a particular year in a particular match, in a particular point in player.

1:38:34That's focus. Focus is not about maintaining a single tunnel of cognition. focus is about calling to mind all these additional contextually relevant batches of information that you might need. And you know, the reason I do the analogy of the Harry Potter library is that it's a dynamic library. So the moment we're done here and we walk out, yes, some of the books, so to speak, of this conversation will linger with us, but whatever we're focused on next, whatever goal -directed behavior we have, making it to dinner or through traffic or wherever we're will call up a new library. Now, some people might say, well, dove, of course it works that way, but it's not dove because it's very dynamic.

1:39:15Now, social media is the opposite of that. It's one library. Next account, another library. Next account, another library. Next account, another library, another library. Another library. And the brain is calling up all these different libraries in rapid succession. So when I look like, I'll be honest, the selected choice of things to click on tells me a lot about what I've been clicking on, right? I mean, obviously the algorithm is starting to I confess and I'm really embarrassed to say, but not so embarrassed that I won't reveal that what I find now on that gallery of things to select are street fights.

1:39:49So beat down and really adorable, strange animals or cute animals. I love the floor and final reality of André Cuban and not the capybara. Like if ever there was an uninteresting animal, It's the capybar. However, yes, the raccoon accounts are delightful to me. The nature is metal account is very cool. There's an extensive community of capybar enthusiasts on Instagram. Which you're a member of? No, I've actively avoided capybar accounts. You're a big octopus guy, though. I like cephalopods. I like cuddlefish. My lab used to work on cuddlefish and octopus is Octopuses. Octopuses. Octopuses. I've been taught for so long that it's octopuses.

1:40:35Octopuses. And actually, this is the most, again, this is the most crap. This is going to kill me because there was a meme about this because we did a live. Okay, so I know too much about this because I used to, my lab used to work on cephalopods, which are one, they're, which are the category of mollusks, include cuttlefish and octopuses. And so it's octopuses is the correct plural. And this is the most like groundbreaking piece of information that we've got so far. Moreover, the great Oliver Sacks, who's now unfortunately dead, is a neurologist and popular writer about the brain function, the man who mistook his wife, her's hat, etc.

1:41:09A real hero of mine. Talked about this that, you know, it's also platypusses and that he wrote about, you can look this up, he wrote about traveling to Australia and then going to the far north where they have a breeding program to reestablish the platypus and that the location of the breeding program, excuse me, is literally the platypusory. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, Oliver Sachs wrote about this. So I've long been interested in the platypus as an interesting animal. They're very interesting. The ostipus. Octopus. Octopus is. Yeah, it's okay. You know, I'm making these other parts. It's it's it's a revolution.

1:41:50So does that mean that the plural is the of or that the location where they breed octopuses is the octopusary? I hope so. I want to go that. Yeah. Well, according to all of her sacks, this is the correct nomenclature and he's the neurologist expert in cephalopods. So we can return to this at some point. I want to show you people will put in the comments where we're right where we're wrong. I'm absolutely so. Either way, they will have gone out and researched and learned and that's what that's what we're here for. I want to show you I want to show you this video. So we can put it up on the screen, just press play on the middle of that and let me know what you think.

1:42:25Right. So for those listening who aren't watching, this is an image of a kid flipping back and forth between an iPad and a phone with incredible dexterity. This is a family out to dinner and the kids are watching screens. There's another kid without any phone as hands crying. attempting to swipe the phone that is not in his hand as if scratching at an itch but not successfully and a kid actually tapping a screen in their sleep. Yes, indeed we are in the up. Thank you. What do you think is going on there? Yeah. And thanks for getting me out of the animal fights conversation. And what's happening is very clear, which is that, the brain, the human brain is an incredible organ because it's a map of our experience.

1:43:20It has certain parts that are hardwired that govern our heart rate and control of our heart rate or control of our breathing, immune, certain immune functions and on and on, but then a vast percentage of the human brain is open real estate that is designated as one function or another depending on what happens to you during development. So we know this for sure. My scientific great grandparents won the Nobel Prize for this day with you, William Torrance and Weasel, that what you see during development really between the ages of birth and about age 14 mainly, but certainly extending longer, creates a set of modules or maps within in the brain that allow you to predict what's going to happen in the future.

1:44:06So if kids are growing up doing a lot of swiping behavior, this is, remember, we're in the first time in human history where people have written with their thumbs also, right? Texting. There are entirely different maps of how language is encoded. And motor, I should say, how motor functions and language interact, you know, in the past, meaning for tens of thousands of years, if not longer, gesticulating, a court and speech and grunting and shouting and pointing. It's one of the primary modes of communication. It's not surprising, therefore, that the representation of the hands and the digits, which is a nerd speak for fingers, is right next to the areas of the brain they're responsible for generating language and speech and language.

1:44:49So we now have the ability to speak with our thumbs, so to speak, no pun intended, by texting. We now have the ability to see many different contextual landscapes as we talked about before by swiping typically up, sometimes down, typically up. So the up swipe is become, you know, as perhaps as hard, not as mapped into the brain as the wave. Hi, what do you say to babies? You know, hi, people try and get their attention, get them to go wide. I'd smile. They do peekaboo. These guys, people doing this for a very long time. Now, the swipe function is one of the ways in which human beings engage in the world.

1:45:31It's almost, it's not as fundamental as opening one's mouth to eat, but it's pretty close. So the brain has just adapted to this. There's real estate set aside for whatever your experience was. And so what you're seeing there is just kids very adept at doing this because it's always a trade off. Human visual, in part, one the Nobel Prize for showing that plasticity of the brain, mapping of the brain for one particular sensory experience or function, say swiping or the ability to switch back and forth between multiple screens, is always, always at the expense of some other potential function. You can't do everything.

1:46:06So when children are inculcating that particular habit, there is the Thomas Soul quote, like there are no solutions on the trade -offs. Yeah, I think I've got written on my whiteboard on my fridge at the moment, the five most common deathbed regrets and it's things like, I wish that I'd not worked as much, I wish I'd let myself be happy, I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends. It will be unbelievably surprising to me if in 40 years time I wish I'd spent less time on my phone isn't on there. I would bet pretty much everything that I have, that that would probably appear on average on people's five top deathbed regrets.

1:46:48I wish I'd spent less time on my phone, and we can see this happening in front of us. And the best way that you can tell that this is going to continue to happen is that you can reflect on what you did over the last week. And one of the most common things that you wish that you'd done less of over the last week was, shouldn't I got captured? I did a couple of YouTube holes or TikTok scrolls or Instagram, whatever. And you know that this is happening in the micro, spread that across a lifetime. I think that very much we're going to look back at this. And hopefully there is some kind of solution.

1:47:21Maybe it's neural ink. Maybe we have a way that we can kind of ethically engage with technology and get the communication and the stimulation and the exploration of different ideas and communities. But right now kind of feels a little bit like, Maybe a little bit like when cigarettes first came out, like your doctor smokes camels, like we didn't, nobody knew what the bad effects of this were, they didn't know long -term what it was going to cause. And did that video, I really wanted to show it to you because you taught me, I was, I think correctly, incorrectly categorizing people's phone uses and addiction.

1:47:59And I think that you said it's much more like a compulsion, right? And that is a child that's asleep or nearly asleep, like compulsively scrolling through that phone. Yeah, because a compulsion does not, an obsession is mental. This is a classic definition of compulsion is a behavior. But the compulsion in classic OCD doesn't relieve the obsession. It actually exacerbates it. The payoff, lack of. So you're not, it's sort of like an itch that you scratch and just get it itches more, right? And there is something like that with social, I don't want to say social media, but with phone scrolling. Now that said, I mean, you know, of my waking hours, most of it is spent foraging for organizing or dispersing information.

1:48:52And much of that is done on the phone or computer. But I do read books, you know, hard books, meaning physical books. I brought you one today. Thank you. I like audiobooks too. I listen a lot of podcasts. I watch your YouTube videos. So I learn when I'm on the internet. But yeah, occasionally it's the, you know, well, I've learned from nature as metal, but I haven't learned anything from the raccoon post. Nothing of substance, anyway. Well, he's the thing. They're very like they're very like cute and very. They do that I moved to a place I'm renting a place as a pool. I've never had a pool before.

1:49:32I've skateboarding a lot of empty pools, but I've never had one that had water in it. So, and they come through in the night. It's raccoon Olympics in the middle of the night. And they're coming through. They make a ton of noise and then they're washing their food. And it's pretty cute the first time you see it, but once they wake you up the third or fourth time, then you're trying to, yeah. So, you know, I haven't learned much from that, from the raccoon videos. Certainly the fight videos haven't really taught me anything about self -defense or anything useful, except how, you know, just kind of cruel people can be.

1:50:00So I'm trying to change the algorithm by clicking on other things, but it seems to be slow to change. I got to tell you this. It's got me on, I've never been into Star Wars. I've seen some of the movies or whatever, but I've never been into it. For some reason, it started delivering me short content about Star Wars law. Like, who would have won between Darth Vader and Dark Moll and all that? Like, who was more powerful as a Jedi Master and all this stuff? Interesting. And I've never been interested in this. and yet it's created in me the desire to actually be like, well yeah, like would Master Yoda have won, however many eons ago if he was at full power when the Sith was out, and I don't even know what I'm talking about, but it's like created in me this thing.

1:50:38The interesting thing that you're talking about there is that there's, when you're foraging, you spend enough time on the internet, and you do find something that gives you that, oh, wow, I never knew about that before, and it's that sort of needle in a haystack that you're looking through. And that trigger of, wow, I found so I can talk about it on a podcast. This is really interesting to me. That is the carrot I think that gets dangled for very many people who want to feel better about their social media use and think, well, okay, you know, I wasted 90 minutes, but I did get that thing out of it.

1:51:14I read that sub -stack post or I found this new person that I really care about, you know, the variable schedule reward of intellectual satisfaction is also in there, right? It's not just the shock. It's not just the cute, prognode for me is that. PubMed, a library of currency. The only guy who thinks that PubMed is variable schedule rules. I remember when PubMed first came out as a very searchable database, and some of the journals later became electronic and now they're all available at try. And I could not believe, I was so excited, because they used to go to the library and I have to pay with put money on the card and Xerox copy and stuff.

1:51:50but also in the library, I love libraries, and I'd spend so much time when I was a student and graduate student, and you'd find something. And it's like, I'd look around. Like, did anyone like, did anyone see that? You see that? But since I was a little kid, I was discovering stuff in books and then talking about it to everybody, even if they didn't want to hear. And so I was professing from a young age in class on Mondays and things. So for me, it's hardwired into my system by now. And I think that I do think that social media holds certain gems, I think we're talking about like mining for gems of social interaction too.

1:52:21You know, I've gotten to know some people through social media where it's really enriched my life. I've reconnected with some people. And it's really enriched my life. It's allowed me to connect the dots, going backward in ways I hadn't anticipated. And I think going forward, if you're asking about the kids in the video that you showed me, or you're talking about adults or anyone, it's the success is largely going to be determined by who has the most self -discipline. I really do, now it's always been the case, but I don't think it's ever been the case to the extent that it is now. So this is why I'm such a fan of taking some space from all action.

1:53:00This is actually something I learned from Rick Rubin. I'm fortunate to call him a close friend. We communicate pretty much every day. And I went and spent a week with him abroad this summer. It was the worst time to travel. and I decided to go over to where he was in Europe and just spend the week with him. We had no plan. And first of all, on the way over there, there was nothing to watch on the plane, but there was this Tom Petty documentary. I turned it on. I'm not a huge Tom Petty fan, but it was interesting enough. And then Brick Rick is in the documentary. And he's in the documentary lying down doing the interview.

1:53:34Typical, like, typical meaning unusual for most people, typical because it's unusual for Rick to be lying down. And I thought, okay, so get there, I know his family well, and I love them, and it was really wonderful. It was beautiful, it's a beautiful part of Europe. But, you know, I noticed, so we had this habit of we would tread water in the pool and listen to podcasts in the morning. And there's a wonderful podcast, by the way, that we should all be aware of. I think it's a history of rock and roll in 500 songs by Andrew Hickey, super nerdy. It's like getting like a graduate degree in rock and roll.

1:54:07It talks about the music, but also what's happening, and like organized crime, how it impacted record sales, very contextual, very cool. I'm very into that lately. And I'm in and in this show on Netflix, have you seen spy ops? Yes. Very good, right? Because it's not just like shoot them up type stuff. It's really about how spy operations, let me put this way. It can teach you a lot about history, international history and geopolitical history. So I go over there and we do some treading water listening to podcasts. I learned about this history of rock and roll 500 songs podcast. We talk about a little bit.

1:54:45And then I noticed that Rick has a practice. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this because I'm about to. Rick has a practice. He has many practices, but one of them is he'll spend a good amount of time just sitting and thinking or lying down and thinking. And it didn't occur to me at the time, but later after I returned, I thought back to our first guest episode of My Podcast. I hosted a guy named Carl Dysroth, who's probably the finest bioengineer on the planet. He's also a fully active clinician psychiatrist. He's got five children. He's one of these phenoms. He seems to be able to do everything.

1:55:22And he's a true genius. He went to school at Medical School at Peter T. and Paul Conti. They I know him very well. He's a colleague of mine at Stanford, and everyone knows he's a super, he's like the Michael Jordan of neuroscience, except he's still active. And that is not a statement about personality, just in terms of successful hit rate. And Carl described a practice that he does after he puts his kids to sleep of where he sits deliberately, sits completely still, and forces himself to think in complete sentences. And this set off a light in my head when I realize Rick does a form of this and Carl does a form of this.

1:56:03If you read the new Elon Musk book, they talk about Elon doing a form of this. The great Richard Feynman physicist, Nobel Prize winner, talked about going into flotation tanks and doing a form of this. Einstein did a form of this. So what are we talking about? So I'm a neuroscientist, but I'm certainly not as smart as any of those guys. is what we're talking about is body still mind active. Now, I've become increasingly curious about psychedelic therapies, one of which is, and by the way, only in a clinical context, et cetera, legality, et cetera, not in kids, et cetera. But the practice is essentially macrodose psilocybin, but with the I -mask on completely still mind very active.

1:56:47Okay. Contrast that to a different behavior slash protocol that I'm very familiar with, which is I like to do long runs or rocks on Sunday. Body very active, mind not directed at anything in particular. Sometimes I'll do it without a book or podcast. Sometimes I do it with a combination of both. Many people talk about swimming or in the shower or cycling, some sort of rhythmic movement, drumming. The great Joe Strummer was really big on campfires. He, you know, I was going to mention this earlier, but I'll mention it now that as an alternative to alcohol consumption, get your friends together around a fire.

1:57:22By the way, the fire light, the light from fire does not disrupt the circadian system. This has actually been shown. Candle light, moonlight, fire light, as bright as it is. It's just very low luxe. So, that's where great things happen. Independent to alcohol, right? Around a campfire. That goes way back in our lineage. So, there are these two states of mind and body that I find fascinating to the point of being intriguing to the point of having modified what I do now, because they're the inverse of one another. Body completely still or close to completely still mind very active. Could be with Silas Ivan, but that's not the protocol I'm recommending.

1:57:59I'm talking about some very, very smart, extremely accomplished people who all did the same thing. The other is body very active. mind isn't still but is not deliberately channel to any particular linear kind of story or something like that. There's a state in sleep where our body is literally paralyzed and the brain is extremely active. It's called rapid eye movement sleep. So I'm raising a flag for this potential protocol slash practice. I don't have any peer -reviewed science to support what I'm about to say, but I have enough examples of extremely accomplished people now in front of me to realize that there's something special about divorcing mind and body function, temporarily, deliberately sitting there and just thinking.

1:58:47And recently I had a conversation with the great Paul Conti in the edition of the words the great in front of him are appropriate. Here is I believe based on my observation of his clinical work and intellectual acumen that he's the finest psychiatrist of our age, clearly integrating from so many backgrounds. It's worked with a ton of interesting people. Coming on the podcast and December. Amazing. And he's just phenomenal, right? Not just about trauma, but about everything. Personality type. It's narcissism, gaslighting. And people throw those terms around like crazy. Pug will tell you what it actually means.

1:59:18Okay. What those terms actually mean. But the ability to think and to access the unconscious. Paul refers to the unconscious as the super computer of the brain. For the unconscious mind and the conscious mind are always in a dialogue, but here's the theory. Here's the hypothesis that when we bring our body into states of stillness in REM sleep in these deliberate states that I just described to these other people actively engaging and have for a long time, that the unconscious mind can start to take over a larger percentage of that conversation and we have access to new ideas, new ways of structuring thought, etc.

1:59:54And I don't think one requires psilocybin to do it, but I do think that is one avenue into it. Reliable. That's reliable. It also carries certain hazards, right? Because it's like being put on a mental rocket ship, to some extent, it's not like DMT, but very little control over where one's cognition goes, although there is some in there. Anyway, I just wanted to throw this up on the wall because it's always fun to talk about new things and what's coming, what I think is coming next. I think, if I were to make a prediction, I think in the next two years, you're not just going to hear about meditation, non -sleep deep rest, something I'm a big fan of, yoga knee -dra, hypnosis, but also whatever we want to call this, you'll probably come up with a better name that I can body still mind active states to access different aspects of our unconscious and cognition.

2:00:41And I must say that we do this with the phone, sorry, I just, because I realize you were about to say something. And when you speak, you say interesting things. And I learned cosplay, the larping. I learned. Don't put those ones as the most interesting stuff. Oh no, you say many interesting stuff. There's, you know, well, in terms of new terms. Okay. New terms. New castle. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. That was one of the most injured concepts, but I'm learning is the point. I wasn't, I wasn't being sarcastic. That when we sit and we're just scrolling, yeah, we're, we're, we're more or less body still mind active, but guess what?

2:01:19None of it's coming from within. It's all coming from the outside. So whether or not it's still siphon in the I mask or Carl sitting there eyes closed deliberately still thinking or Feynman in the salt equilibration chamber, you know, the float, flotation tank or Rick, line there thinking whatever it is, he happens to be thinking whatever amazing album he's going to now, you know, help produce more Einstein. I mean, you know, we can think of the phone and the scrolling as lending itself to less ability to focus in ADHD, but just the real crime, the real insult to humanity. For me, the real cost is what about all the creative imagination of things that come from inside that could be generated by people in that time?

2:02:04So I'm, I've started doing a practice of 20 minutes a day of just sitting and eyes closed typically sometimes it's right as I wake up, but usually it's not. And just trying to think about certain topics and hold those topics in a kind of a linear way or sometimes just laying stuff guys are up. Anyway, some people might think of this as like completely wacko -woo, new AG stuff, but the list of names I read off there are people that do that and have been doing this for a long time and attribute this practice as one of the major sources of their best ideas is a non -trivial list. When I think about that, there's a few different ways that are slightly similar.

2:02:46The number of people who've had great ideas whilst walking and attribute an awful lot of their success to walking and thinking. I'm aware that you're talking body still mind active, but it's like, body mostly still, it's not exactly like. Or perhaps there is a unique way to access this too. Maybe it's a different channel to a different brain state. Maybe it's a different channel to the same brain state. Like I love doing long rocks and long runs on Sunday. That's my goal on Sunday. Get out as much as possible into the nature and just move in some sort of repetitive way like a new author on a Rucksack has Peter T.

2:03:14He got me into that Sometimes it's with other people sometimes alone sometimes I listen to a podcast sometimes they don't sometimes an audiobook sometimes they don't But something about about motor repetition So this is not sets in reps. This is not restacking the play. This is you know minimum amount of cognition required I had to jump the top. Freeing up mental space to do other things. Yeah, could be on the roller. So again, I think different people will do it differently. I've been hanging around with a lot of musicians lately. I've become good friends with one of my favorite musicians, songwriters, Tim Armstrong, Leasinger for Rancid, Transplants, he and Travis Barker did Transplants.

2:03:49And it's clear that musicians, especially drummers, but other musicians, well, they're always in a rhythm in their head. They're actually Tim and I the other day, we went someplace and we walked out, he's like, did you hear that? Like to hear what you say you can hear that I'll say what he's like you know they had the news on and the radio on and You know he's so tuned into the audio and I'm not right. I'm not that audio Oriented more visually oriented, but you know people who have an internal rhythm That they're they're they're they're noodling on something in their head. I mean this is this is the substrate of creative work Right, and I and again the phone isn't evil But the moment you're taking in sensory input from that includes things that have already been creative.

2:04:29Excuse me created You're, yeah, you could argue that those are the macronutrients that you're going to combine for your own creative thing, the gems in the internet. So studies, a sign of studies for me are interesting things on YouTube. But there's also just the raw materials of creative work that come from limiting sensory input and just going inside. Self -generating it. Yeah, so I've been thinking one of the things that people want a lot more of, I think, is focus, attention, productivity, as someone who values the work, output that you do, productivity as a word is quite nefarious, quite nebulous, quite sort of ephemeral.

2:05:10How have you come to think about the concept of productivity and its constituent parts? Have you got any tools, any strategies, tactics that you use to kind of drop yourself into a productive state and stay there? Yeah, so I do all the things that I profess at the level of the basics. Morning sunlight, non -sleep deep rest if I didn't get enough sleep, physiological size when I need to bring my level of autonomic arousal, AK stress down. These are all things I've talked about. Three days a week of cardiovascular training, three days a week of resistance training, one day a week of deliberate cold, deliberate heat minimum, usually on the day after leg day.

2:05:49I do all that stuff. And it creates a structure. And yes, it takes some time. And a lot of that stuff can be combined, excuse me, with consumption of podcasts and audiobooks at the same time and social time. But for me, the process of writing, and I'm working on a book now, but also just the creative process has been greatly enhanced and productivity overall by setting in this 20 minute period where I force myself to just stop and have deliberate thoughts that are within a single context. I don't let my mind wander. So it's very different than maybe the psilocybin journey where it feels. It sounds to me a little bit like active meditation or kind of like narrative meditation in a way.

2:06:30You know, you're forcing your mind to come back to the, you're not just allowing yourself to branch off onto a current, into a new thought, okay, here I am. This is the trunk of the tree and I'm going to try and follow this trunk as high as I can. What about, you know, you're sitting down at the desk. you have the research to do, the emails to write, the whatever, what have you got tactically in terms of a priming or a structure for that specific situation? Yeah, I used handwritten sticky notes and I'll put the thing that I'm supposed to do and I'll keep looking at it because I'm amazed at how often my mind will flick to other things.

2:07:03It's like, oh, I have to transfer some money to somebody that I owe them or I have to pay that bill or I have to, I mean, the number of excuses that leap to mind is outrageous for everybody. Unless we're under deadline, fear, or extremely rare, but you know, high motivational states because we just simply love it. So I give myself five minutes or so to break into the work or five to ten minutes. I don't expect full focus in that first five to ten minutes. But here's what I tell myself because I know from 30 plus years of experience, the feeling that I'm going to get after I complete something, having like really had to push against the grain to force my attention back to that thing, the feeling of having accomplished, even in a one hour bow to work is so incredibly rewarding for me.

2:07:47And the feeling of having done basically nothing is such an incredible sense of disappointment and lack of life, like such a vitality drain for me. I'm not as hard on myself as I gather some people out there are, like David Goggins talks about his self -talk and how he can be very hard on himself at times. But mine isn't like that. But I know how great it's going to feel when I get to the I feel projecting forward the reward that you're going to feel and trying to bring that into the now That's very smart. I've got written on my other I've got to to fridge whiteboards The other is what would you tomorrow want you today to do right and that to me is the It's like a panacea For avoiding bad decisions You know because you live with with the story that you tell yourself about the decision for way longer than the enjoyment or lack of of the decision.

2:08:44There is a cookie on the table. I promise myself I wouldn't eat it and I make a decision about whether or not I eat the cookie. There is either enjoyment or reward, enjoyment in eating it or reward of satisfaction of discipline for not eating it that happens now. But what's really important is the story that I tell myself tomorrow about being the sort of person that is a cookie eater or is not a cookie eater. And I think that that framing that we place around the present moment largely determines our experience of it. And I find myself trying to live for future Chris more. And the more that I do that, the better that my life seems to get.

2:09:21There are very few situations in which I make a decision today that I tomorrow would have wanted me to that turn out to be the wrong decision. And that projecting forward, how am I going to feel in future? This is difficult now. Rick Hansen, you know, neurons that fight together, why together, like can you sit with some of the satisfaction after you've done something that's good? Can you maybe even bring that forward a little bit? Give yourself a little, oh yeah, that's how it's going to do. Yeah, one other thing that I've just been so fascinated by recently, you have been a big proponent and I think have really helped people in getting sunlight in the eyes early on.

2:09:58and let's get ourselves outside, walk. I think you taught me about the lateral eye movement, can downregulate the amygdala, response. All stuff that I'd found on my own just through doing a morning walk, and then again, like with the alcohol thing, gets legitimated through the science. It's something that I did, found it myself, and then I'm like, ah, this wasn't just bro science or some weird quirk of my physiology. This was actually something that can be shown up in the literature too. Rian Doris from the flow research collective has the flow morning routine. Have you seen this from him? I have him, but I know Ryan.

2:10:30Ryan's a really good person. Ryan's a monster. His morning routine developed with Stephen Kotler to get yourself into flow specifically for deep work and writing is to begin working within 90 seconds of waking because the state of flow and the state of sleep are not far away from each other in terms of brain frequency, delta and theta. There's sort of liminal state. Yeah, I haven't seen that yet, but I'll check it out. I, I am a big believer in the moment you wake up if you were dreaming, keep your eyes closed and keep your body completely still. Also, similarly, if you wake up from a nightmare and you don't, and you wanna forget about that nightmare, you need to move your body.

2:11:09There's something about body movement that discards the prior cognitive map. It's like it clears the library. We're talking about the dynamic Harry Potter -ish library. I don't wanna give too much credit to Harry Potter. Certainly not to that play. But one thing that I'll just about the productivity piece before I'm reflect on this further. Because something you said really, really struck a chord with me. You know, I can project to the future me, but that's not exactly how I do it. What I'm, I just know because I'm so familiar with it, the feeling that I get having actually accomplished some small percentage to large percentage of what I would set out to do feels so unbelievably rewarding to me.

2:11:47And I know that it also enhances the social interactions I'll have. It's like a feeling of self -satisfaction that transcends to an ability to show up with more clarity of mind. I'm one of the problems for me in terms of productivity is I'm very strongly affiliative. I'm very fortunate to have a lot of close friends. So if I get a text message from someone, I feel compelled to write them back, not out of responsibility because if it's someone I'm closer, I love that person. Like I love my family, but I love my friends. I love my co -workers colleagues at the podcast. I mean, it extends, and this has to do with my upbringing, the fact that my non -biological family became my family before I sort of reconnected with my actual family in a really deep way.

2:12:27But the one exception being my sister and I were tight, tight a whole time. But for me, a text coming isn't a distraction. That's the good stuff in life. That's one of the reasons I'm there. So I have this practice sometimes of imagining that my my crew, right? As the kids say, I'm pretty crude up these days Which is great because it wasn't always the case They want me to like forage off to where I need to go and collect the gems and come up with the ideas that are going to be the next Post the next podcast the next scientific study they want that I tell myself they want that for me like they're cheering me on because I know I'm cheering them on summer musicians some do other things I'm cheering them on.

2:13:12I want them to know like I'm here and I want you to go get the stuff and do your thing. And so I imagine that they're doing that for me and I turn my phones off. And there's some anxiety in doing that. I'll put in the car sometimes because it's not that I'm in or I need to neurotically check the phone because I don't feel safe if I don't hear from them. I love these people and I don't want them to feel as if I'm not available. That's really how it is for me. But I know that, and I think someone said it and I forget the quote, so forgive me. But if you're going to create anything of value in this life, even if it's with other people, you're going to have to be willing to be on your own for a bit, to forge on your own, to take walks alone, and then return to people to your tribe, so to speak, and share with them what you've learned, or maybe even just show up with whatever energy shift has occurred while you were off doing your thing.

2:14:03And so, you know, the phones are a wonderful tool, but I think over the years I lost the ability to be truly on my own and dropped into work. And it's something I've recovered a lot in the last few years by telling myself that indeed they want me to do that. And indeed, I show up so much better to all the relationships in my life if I've done some real - Satisfied with a good taste work. Yeah, Satisfied with a good taste work. You know, it's just that you know, got over that barrier of resistance. You know, the Stephen Press field thing of resistance that you I wrestled with resistance and one I think we should all want people to win and I also and I confess I'm gonna lose some friends with this But I have variable latency in terms of my text replies sometimes it's a day sometimes an hour sometimes a minute sometimes Sometimes it's a month.

2:14:50I love being on a plane and scrolling through old text I'm like, hey, how's it going to miss this and people are like that was a month ago. Yeah, it was and you know I've been busy, you know, and, you know, emergencies are dealt with, but it happens. What's happening in the brain and body when we procrastinate? Oh, yeah. So procrastination is super interesting. There are actually some data that Adam Grant shared with me recently that people who procrastinate actually have, tend to be, have access to certain creative states that non -procrastinateers don't. Don't start justifying the procrastination crowd.

2:15:23That's a dangerous line to go. Yeah, procrastination, I mean, I mean, what the origins of procrastination are complicated and varied to really say a single concise statement as to what procrastination is. But the way to overcome procrastination is to do something harder than the hard thing that you're putting off. That's very clear. Do something harder. Don't go clean your, like suddenly if you want to do their taxes, clean their room, clean the garage, organize the gym, whatever, when they don't want to write a chapter in their book. But you have to pick something that's worse than writing the chapter in your book and do that for five minutes.

2:15:57That's the way that the dopamine reward system works and some of these stress systems work. What would be an example? Give me a tactical example of this. Okay. I need to write a chapter on focus and tools for focus for my book. I'm finding I'm doing everything but doing that, unless you said it kind of a fun example. I'll do anything but that. Okay. So then you have to find something worse than that. So for me, worse than that is anything involving a spreadsheet. Just the idea of a spreadsheet gives me hives. So I would force myself to do five to 10 minutes of like, like, like, establishing a spreadsheet of my expenses and taxes related to, I don't know, some segment of my work life.

2:16:39I mean, I can't think of anything worse in that moment that doesn't involve physical or psychological damage. So doing that and then you'll see it will make writing that book chapter very accessible. It's a downhill cruise from there. But people find themselves doing all these things that they would normally want to put off as a way to avoid doing the harder thing. So it's about understanding that what is difficult and what you want to put off or do is a dynamic hierarchy. I think you can think of it as dynamic subordination. You know, I don't know if that's barred from cost play or from the military or BDSM.

2:17:16I don't know. I heard it someplace. But all the places that you mine for information most frequently. No, it's raccoons and street. No, none of those communities are communities that I know very much about. But it was saying it facetiously. But the point being do something harder than the thing you're trying to avoid. Now, some people really like deliberate cold exposure for that reason. Because in a, and here I'm going to really, if I've taken heat for or no pun intended for the deliberate cold exposure thing. Now I'm really gonna get behind it for the following reason. People who are really into exercise of various kinds but not deliberate cold exposure love to push back on people that do posts about deliberate cold exposure.

2:17:53Oh, that's not doing anything. It's not much metabolic lift. Okay, but let's really step back and be honest with ourselves. The adrenaline, the pattern of adrenaline release over time from deliberate cold exposure is something that's very hard to recreate safely with other endeavors. You know, sure, a hard workout is gonna spike your adrenaline into dopamine also, but is it gonna spike it the way that deliberate cold exposure is? No. Also, the amount of a mental barrier that one has to get over in a moment, not, isn't it like three warm -up sets, like walk on the treadmill, zero to 100. Free workout, show me the pre -cold plunge drink that makes it easier, okay?

2:18:35It's called willpower. Yeah, okay, and now some people come to love deliberate cold exposure, but that's usually for how they feel afterwards So I think there is so much utility to deliberate cold exposure now do people have to do it? No, but deliberate cold shower deliberate ice bath Deliberate cold plunge is it is a world apart from all the other self -imposed stressors because of the speed of onset of the stress Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, even even more so than a sauna That's right you get into a sauna and it takes time for you to heat up takes time for you to get on good I mean, it's a very potent tool because of the amplitude and the timing of adrenaline that it creates.

2:19:15What else in the procrastination dissolving toolkit? So we've got do something that is harder than the thing that you're trying to get away from. If you can do cold exposure, that's kind of cool. If you're like, I got to sit down and do this. I find myself a 10 minutes kind of fluffing about trying to do so. I go upstairs, I have a cold shower. Okay, that was way more miserable than this is going to be. If it's miserable, if you like it, then no. But if it's way more miserable, then that's the thing to do. Pick the miserable thing. I mean, sometimes it'll leave me like hard conversation you didn't want to have.

2:19:44Some people are, you know, certain hard conversations are harder than others, easier than others. But, you know, in business, I've never had a hard time having hard conversation. People slaying all sorts of demons in an attempt to get away from their procrastination. That's right. Here, one of the things that I really wanted to talk about but was the peril of overoptimization. I think that before we knew about all of these sign space tools, everyone had an excuse not to be optimized, right? And now we're all educated about this stuff. And I think that a lot of people feel guilt. They can feel guilt because the gap between how effective they are and how effective they could be is felt between them.

2:20:23So given that you spend an awful lot of time thinking about the tools that people can use, how can someone get over this guilt of lack, of not being where they should be with getting all of their things dialed in? Well, guilt is rarely an effective emotion, although sometimes guilt and shame can really help us make a significant change. You know, the word optimization and optimize, I think, needs clear definition, and I'm not suggesting that you are the one that said this, but a lot of people think it means being perfect all the time. Optimization is something that we need to look at in the context of the moment, the hour, the day, the week, right?

2:21:07You have a viral infection or your sick or your tired or jet lagged. Optimization is whatever you can do to manage the basic five of, you know, sunlight, sleep, nutrition, exercise, relationships, work productivity that you can. So it's about, it's a verb function. It's not a state to be in, like floating around, optimized. It's optimization. The verb is a process that we're continually in. I mean, people who are raising kids are exceedingly busy raising kids and they're trying to optimize raising the kids and hopefully taking care of their health as well. So I think people see or hear the long list of science informed protocols that I talk about and think, oh my goodness, how am I supposed to do all of that?

2:21:47That's why I keep coming back to the basics, right? And look, a little bit of sunlight is better than none. A little bit, dimming the lights a little bit is better than, you know, keeping them on a full blast at night. You know, making, you know, eating a few fewer heavily processed foods. They're highly palatable is better than, you know, not doing that, right? But, and there are certain people who have immense amounts of self -discipline. I mean, one thing that's, and they're going to do all the things. I mean, one thing that's absolutely clear is that there's a pattern of people discovering things that make them feel much better and then I need to tell everyone about it.

2:22:21And that creates a bit of a divide for people. One thing that I've tried to do is to say, yes, I do these tools, I do these protocols, but I'm not just sympathetic, but I empathize with the fact that sometimes things happen, travel, kids, illness, you get into an argument with a significant other, or at work, or you're just feeling off. And so it's important to try and do these things on average is my belief. And to be gentle with oneself when the time calls for it. And then there's other times you need to just scruff yourself and say like enough for this, like enough, you remember, like it's time to sit down and write this thing.

2:22:59I don't care if you phone is ringing or not. I don't care if you want to or not. And you build up your AMCC while you're doing it, right? You know that if ever there was a carrot for the hard for doing the hard thing, it's that AMCC activation that makes your AMCC larger, which makes your willpower more accessible in the future. So it's not that I'm unsympathetic to people who are like, wow, this just feels like a lot. But we also have to remember that we should all, I think, as a species be an individual, as individuals, excuse me, be striving to do better each day, better than yesterday on the backdrop of what we happen to be dealing with today.

2:23:35I really, really do. I mean, last week I had a great week up until Thursday and then something happened. Thursday was a purely professional thing. And it was like, everything got derailed. I literally didn't sleep that night. Very rare for me, very rare. And it's interesting, the pattern that emerged, I did some reflecting on later after this event passed, which was there's always this moment where we're like, where we don't wanna do damage control, where we're thinking, gosh, if I just hadn't done that or if that person just hadn't done that, you're trying to control the past. So there's that moment, and I've learned you have to let that process take place.

2:24:10Unless you have the amazing abilities of a, you know, a special, tier one special operations person, it seems to be able to just live in the moment. By the way, those guys, I know a lot of them, very close to them, tremendous respect for them, but a lot of them have trouble when they return from that kind of landscape where, well, that's done. You gotta focus on the next thing, because real life involves sometimes ruminating over the thing that happened, and just living in that space of, I wish that hadn't happened. Now, you try and compress that to be a limited amount of time, and then you get to okay, damage control.

2:24:39And damage control sucks because there's the opportunity cost of all the other things that you're not doing while you're doing damage control. So you know, the human animal, including me, needs to accept that there are certain things that we just aren't going to get perfect. And I hate doing damage control, like everybody does, but I probably hate it a little bit more. And under those conditions, I just think, okay, you know what? This isn't 72 hours lost. This is an opportunity to learn. And indeed, we came out of this situation better, had then we not gone into it. But I'll tell you that realization didn't arrive until Sunday and I was pretty upset on Friday and I'm not a bad mood guy I'm not a moody guy.

2:25:17I don't get headaches. I don't get stomachache I'm not moody people don't grade on me even people with very different opinions and things I'm like living that live and like caught my bulldog Costello. So I guess to answer your question very directly here at the end I think Optimization is not about removing all negative emotion or physical states optimization is about working with what's right in front of you with the understanding that the human brain and its capacity to think about the past, the present, or the future in some combination sometimes. Occasionally, the anchor is still stuck in the sand a few hours or days back or a years back.

2:25:52And we have to accept that as part of our normal neural functioning and psychological functioning and try and get, you know, and try and get onward and move forward. But that when we're in those moments, you know, we have to know that we're in them. And one of the most useful tools that for this was given to me by a podcast guest that episode hasn't come out yet. Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's done a lot in the neurobiology of emotions and psychology of emotions. And you know, she said, and it's so powerful, anytime you feel a high activation state of any kind, you should stop. Because what it's happening is it's revealing to you something very important.

2:26:31And if you don't stop to think about why I'm so upset or why I'm so happy, you're going to miss an important lesson. So this can be positive states to anytime you feel like you're getting above eight out of 10 or seven and a half out of 10 on some scale of internal arousal for good or bad reasons, you want to reflect what is the lesson? Gosh, I really love this person. I love this interaction. I love this aspect of my job. So that's going to inform the next job I take because I don't love the rest of the job. or this really sucks. And there's a lesson, and I learned a very important lesson in that last Thursday, but I didn't realize it until late Saturday, but I remember on Thursday, this thing hit and I was pissed.

2:27:13I don't get pissed very often, but I was pissed. And I remember hearing Lisa's voice in my head and thinking, okay, what is this revealing to me? It's a strategic learning opportunity. Three days later, I had in my journal, and I still have in my journal. I have many journals, but I have one that's permanent that kind of is the distilled out things things that kind of rise to the top as truths for me. And it revealed to me that I care, oh, so very much about certain things to the point where they're not about my career, they're really about my life, my quality of life. And that small cluster of things is something that now I protect inside, I'm stealing Paul Conti's language here, but inside the castle walls of what I consider important.

2:27:53Like I brought some things in that I think before I wasn't reckless with, but I didn't realize. It would be like if you have a prized horse or child and you're laying them play outside the castle walls And you know their marauders out there, but all of a sudden one takes a you know an arrow through the heart And you're like and it's a huge loss. Well, what do you do with your other horses or children? You bring them inside the castle walls, right? But you it would be a shame to have to have that experience in order to recognize how important they are to you But there were certain things that I was just not protecting and now I feel so secure I also feel like I gained a huge lesson.

2:28:27So the short list here is when the shit storm hits to put it in scientific nomenclature, know that you're going to be focused on this for a while, except that as quickly as you can, but understand that accepting that itself is its own hard process. Be, pay attention to those states of higher rouse. There are lessons there, even if this is good stuff. Even if this is great stuff, the love of your life, If you're now getting engaged, there's a lesson there's things to be gleaned that you'll want to go back to later. And then three or four days later, go back to those things and examine them from some different perspectives because I think there are huge lessons in these higher rouse all states, whether or not it's higher rouse all because of terrible things or higher rouse all because of good things.

2:29:10And I think having a process for moving through that is something I didn't have and I'm still learning to cultivate. And you know, gosh, if you wish that you hadn't spent as much time on the phone or other people's which they haven't spent as much time on the phone, I wish I had known or had a process for dealing with things that happened to me or that I created that were unfortunate for myself or others, they created for me a process of moving through that semi -structure that accepts that you're giving up some degree of control but that there's the opportunity to regain control and establish lessons that you never, ever would be able to access purely retroactively.

2:29:46Yeah, that's kind of like alchemy. And taking something which is, you know, objectively a pretty crap situation and turning it into something which is really, really useful. There was a quote that stuck with me that you tweeted last year. Or maybe you just taught it to me, I can't remember. Advice I got early in my career. Don't over engage in any controversy unless you are willing to stake your entire reputation on it. Rather, keep focused on discovering new things and creating RLs. You become known for the controversy and nothing else that is no going back. Right. Yeah. This isn't about avoiding being canceled because I think some people might translate it to mean that, which is why I say it's not about that.

2:30:27It's about, you know, we're given this enormous privilege to communicate our thoughts very fast now through social media. And whether or not you have a big following, small following or no following, it is still a privilege. And it's something that I've learned to really think through and guard and protect as an asset that we have. And I've thought about this from the beginning of posting on things online and set up certain rules for myself. For instance, I try to ensure that 90 % of my posts are really for the pure benefit of the audience and not for my own entertainment. Occasionally I'll see something and I'll have one of these like you know, I'll see something an animal post or something like that.

2:31:13So cool or the other day I saw something on an on an ex account about you know, bumblebees that sleep inside of flowers and it was really cool about how they look at polarized light and stuff. But I just was really tickled by this fact. I thought other people might be as well, but it was more for my own entertainment, frankly. But 90 % of what I put out there, I'm really trying to think will people benefit from this? Will they learn from it? Not are they going to be interested in it, but are they going to learn from it? Well, get them thinking or doing something beneficial to their mental health or physical health.

2:31:42Lord knows I've been attacked for, you know, saying, hey, this is an interesting study about deliberate cold exposure and then people will like, oh, it's underpowered and, you know, it's a marginal effect. And I love this because I come from the field of science. It's sort of funny. It turned people loose on a paper. Wet because you know you're going to get a range of opinions because no two people read the same paper the same way. And everyone would like to say that they are the arbiter of truth and how to read it. papers, which makes me chuckle. Normally, those people have not published very many papers themselves.

2:32:07It's sort of this inverse relationship. But nonetheless, I like to put things out there that stimulate thinking, positive thinking. I don't like controversy for sake of controversy. But you and I have colleagues in the podcast space and there are many people who are public facing who see a current event and they just say what they think. And you know what? More power to them. But it is, and I will say it is a distractor from a larger message that they likely have, if they have one at all. And you see this, and it's not that they go down. What happens, they take their audience that has been built around a certain set of topics, and suddenly they're talking about current events.

2:32:48I guess what I'm basically saying is, I don't talk about current events. Yeah, you've never, as far as I'm away, you've never commented on politics, you've never made any... No, actually, this is, I've, um, politics came to around to me in an interesting way. I'll just share this because it's exactly how it happened. Rogan had Robert Kennedy Jr. on his podcast. Okay. And I liked the post and I commented and the comment was the following. I said, I hope all, um, I hope all presidential candidates go on long form podcasts because I happen to believe that it's a great way to get to know candidates.

2:33:27Oh, fuck no. So didn't someone edit your Wikipedia page? Okay. So in this, so this is interesting. So I got calls from colleagues of mine at Stanford. I got literally calls and texts. I got calls from major media outlets asking whether or not I'm a RFK supporter slash anti -vaxxer. To which I said, I don't know how you concluded that. Okay. It's certainly not my stance. Right. My politics are my politics. but there was a huge leap from, and I said, and in my comment, I said, you know, I look forward to listening, and I hope all the candidates go on long -form podcasts. I also see Robert in the gym, and it always looks like he's training hard.

2:34:04He trains hard. He's in good condition. Yeah, he wears jeans, which I don't understand when he trains, but anyway, but he trains hard. Odd choice. Odd choice, but free country. So be it. So was I commenting on the content of his podcast? No, was I commenting on him? You probably hadn't even listened to it yet. I hadn't listened to it yet. So what was interesting was in the subsequent days, I got an onslaught of assumptions, presumptions, really what they were. And then, yes, I mean, this isn't about, maybe this is the time, I published over 70 peer -reviewed articles that are indexed on PubMed, many of which had secondary sources in time and other major outlets that covered the findings for the relevance to the general public at the time, this is around 2016, mostly, but in the subsequent years as well.

2:34:50That was scraped from my Wikipedia. Scraped from Wikipedia. You mean like scrub removed from my Wikipedia? Oh, my research contributions are not there on Wikipedia. Still. And then it was there were assertions that I was an anti -vaxxer. There were assertions that I was supporting certain political agendas and so on. And then the page was locked by the editorial staff. I've had communications with the founders of Wikipedia who the page has been adjusted somewhat, but none of my research has been put back. I actually am at this point, I think it's sort of interesting because it's more, actually it's kind of fortunate that it happened in the sense that it's more telling about how the kind of editorializing around Wikipedia exists than this is really not about me.

2:35:37I'm telling this anecdote as a way to sort of reveal what was my experience makes very clear that, Now it includes some positive, some negatives about the podcast. That's fine. We cover supplements. Some people are and promote supplements in certain contexts, mostly behavioral tools, but supplements too. And so I'm perfectly fine with that being included, because that's true. But it is very interesting to see how when I, the way that sort of people will pick up the ball and run with things. And it's been super useful for me to understand this, because what it's allowed me to do, at first it was like, hey, like what's this about?

2:36:19Then I tried to figure it out. Then I went straight to the top in terms of trying to understand. And I realized, it's like, okay, what do I really love doing? I love forging for information that can benefit people's mental health and physical health. I love organizing that information. I love dispersing that information to the best of my abilities. And those are the things that make me happy. And those are the things that seem to resonate with a certain number of people. Those are also some of the same things that seem to irritate a certain number of people and and I love doing it And so what I'm gonna do is just return to doing that and I learned a lot about the landscape of online information in the process Very formative experiences very formative and as an academic, you know all the papers are on PubMed There's no unless the paper is retracted or corrected.

2:37:03There's no Removing things from the library. Yeah, so your Google scholar will just be kind of like no one's going in that My H index is fixed and it's not it's to be very clear I want to be very clear because I don't want to contradict the very thing that I opened up the question, which is this is not this is not something I want to like die on the sword of, right? But it really alerted me to the fact that so much of the information that's on the on the internet has been massaged in a particular direction based on presumptions. So one of the reasons I'm taking this opportunity to talk about this is not to counter major media news outlet.

2:37:36They're just trying to make a living for it's kind of interesting. and they have a lot of the same advertisers that my podcast does. You know, I don't advertise Fendi bags, but, but you know, they use advertisers, we use them. It makes it free to everybody as a consequence, but I think that it's really important for people to realize that this question of like, what can we, who can we trust, what can we trust? We all have to learn to be good scientists and foragers of information. And the macro for me is that hopefully people are learning to forge for information better as a consequence of understanding meaning that like, yeah, no one person holds the truth.

2:38:11This is not Mount Olympus, right? So I think the interesting thing, well, one of the reasons why you might have seen an outsized response to this is people aren't used to you being in anything, right? Like the biggest conspiracy that Andrew Cuban is gonna be a part of, it's like some new study on sunlight in the eyes or something. It's like, is there was the p -value and stuff? It's like, it's not accessible to the normal person. a large mafia. Precisely. Yeah. There is by the way a cold plunge mafia. Who are they? Yeah. Well, I'm not going to talk about it. It's like what it calls the Sikaros.

2:38:45You've got the brotherhood. You've made a blitz. Yeah. I probably shouldn't have said that. You can keep it in, but it's a pretty, it's a strong, very, very implicit. Undistellably, socially, financially. So it's very powerful, very cold. I understand why people are nervous about the cold plunge. It's me too. So lots and lots of people online.

2:39:06get known for their expertise within one area and then start to think to themselves, well, why shouldn't the world know about my opinion on the Ukraine conflict? Like, I've got lots of things to say and everybody thinks that it's very, very valuable. So maybe I should contribute to what we should do about climate change or what we think should happen in the next election. And I think that, you know, to your credit, you've done a really good job because you will have opinions. You've just chosen not to share them presumably. Right, I vote. Yeah, so, but you've chosen not to do that. And I think that it's almost like the sensitivity dial was turned up so much.

2:39:44It's like, where's the first ever society? We knew, we knew that it was the tattoos and the beard. We always knew that that guy was like an RFK or do you know what I mean? And any opportunity for somebody to jump on this, right? So this is something that I've been kind of noticing in myself. Somebody asked me this, I'm doing these live shows at the moment. So I know that you do live shows too. Great. I want to come to one of your live shows. We're not doing LA. I'll find you a date. Live shows are so different than podcasts and I learned. I can't wait to see. What is your arousal state before you step on stage?

2:40:18Oh, I mean, I have a whole set of protocols. Would you would you send me them? Sure. Yeah. I would love. I spend the whole day basically in a rhythm and I talk to only a limited number of people and I've got a rhythm in my head and I'm in an SDR hypnosis part of the day. I send in receive a few texts of Rick, my friend Tim Armstrong, my friend Jim Thibault. I touch base with my team, I do prayer. I'm like, I'm in an altered state and I need all the help looking forward and looking forward to the protocol. I've got my tour my first UK and island tour is happening in November and then I'm going to Dubai.

2:40:55We've got a huge 2 ,000 person showing Dubai. Then we're going to do Canada in the US anyway. I got asked recently, I'm doing work in progress shows like a comedian for these. So I'm doing 40 person shows at East Austin comedy club. All of the profits go to charity. I wanted to work out my material, right, before I went on stage. Even though it's not comedy stuff. But I wanted to do it and it's been really, really useful because I've been able to watch, I shouldn't really open with that story. It's not so you can move that a bit later. it's a bit heavy, it's a whatever, whatever. I have thoughts about this, yeah.

2:41:27So somebody asked me at one of these shows, what some of the unseen prices are that you pay for building a platform of this size. And what I realized was, both you and I just like doing the shows that we do. Like I love, there is nothing that I would prefer to do at 4 .23 p .m. on a Friday afternoon then sit down and have this conversation. There is nothing that I would rather do, right? And if you do that for long enough, you end up accumulating the size of an audience that carries with it responsibility that you didn't ask for. It didn't ask to have my like and comment on my friend Joe's Instagram post scrutinized by mainstream media and trended across Twitter.

2:42:15Right, not only that, I'd call he's calling the saying, not what is happening to you, but literally what happened to you. Right. It's not awesome. But the same week that we published a clinical trial, so it's not as if like my scientific career. So it was pretty interesting. I actually had very fruitful conversations with those people. I know what I eventually figured out what the answer is to the question asked before, which is still in this vein, which is, here's the thing. There's a certain segment, in fact a very large segment of listenership, viewership, and media that want to see you and me and other people do what they would do in a given circumstance.

2:43:01For instance, why didn't you counter so and so when they said blank? Why didn't you stand up for this group when you have the opportunity, a not situation. What they're basically saying is they wish they had to have the opportunity and they're angry that you're not Tip of the spear for them in circumstances that they don't have access to. I get it, but one thing that I learned early on by observation is that a sense of justice and a sense of strong opinion about certain things is incredibly important. I mean, that runs in my family. But you have to know when justice needs to line up with action or when justice is time to walk away.

2:43:45When you're not the best suited for something. The other thing that, and I have to say, Joe Rogan is the best at what I'm about to describe. And I admire it so much. First of all, I'll go on record saying that I think Joe Rogan has been clearly net positive for science, bringing about lots of different conversations about tons of topics. Let's just leave the vaccine thing aside for the moment, but sleep, the, the, the Cosmo. On a Lemki, right? Peter Atia and on and on. Okay. It's very clear whether or not he's aware that he's not going to be leveraged by anybody. No one's going to come on to show it.

2:44:26He can't, he doesn't allow himself to be used, right? So when someone gets upset that you're not taking a stand that they would take, they're I've said that they can't use you to reach their ends. And, you know, I have many flaws, like anybody, but maybe a few extra. I really do. And, but one, but included in that extensive list of flaws is not the capacity to be used. It just is not. I have strong opinions and there's time for justice and action on all particular lines. And I prefer to do that not using my social media platform or podcast platform. in part because there's a tremendous number of things that I wanna learn about and teach about, guess I wanna have on, to educate as many people as possible.

2:45:09So I'm not being political or diplomatic. I'm being extremely strategic. I'm saying, I'm not gonna be used to achieve somebody else's end. I wanna, that's basically what it is. And so I think very hard about the things I wanna take on. And they're mostly about helping people regulate or circadian rhythms, stress, sleep, eating disorders, depression, understanding of self through a mental health series, addiction, sleep, you know, I said sleep multiple times, and on and on. And the other stuff is really barbed wire. You can get snagged on it and stuck there. And then you're tossed up against the barbed wire and you're fighting and you're bleeding out.

2:45:45And guess what? A bunch of really great stuff is happening. So that you could be focusing on. I often, I always think. That's really what it is. I always think about how much of some of the smartest minds of our generations time has been taken up arguing over pick your topical issue headline of the moment. Like what else could have been achieved if these people who outside of the myopia and like catastrophe that is most of pop culture headline stuff are phenomenal thinkers and yet they have a, it's like the kryptonite that there's something that pulls them away and I wanna rip them back in. Well, my thumbs start buzzing.

2:46:28You know, there's the premotor circuits that get me wanting to put something to my mind. How often do you, how often do you type and delete? Does that happen much? Three times a day. You're kidding. No, but not because of political reasons, but more sensitivity issues. But yeah, about three times a day. There are a lot of posts that just don't go up because I'm like, it's not gonna land right. I don't touch on current events. I mean, our friend Lex Friedman covers a lot of current events and gets right in the middle. I mean, he likes to, he'll travel to current events. Yeah. You know, he'll land himself in dangerous territories.

2:46:58I think also something that's really helped me. I had great scientific advisors and mentors coming up. I also I I understand the limits of having one brain and one personality and one history and I have a council of people that I refer to often. It's funny. I brought my notebook today, which I'm always carrying around one of these little notebooks I'm writing on cards and things and in the front of this notebook is a list of names. I didn't think we'd get into this at all today, but a list of names of people that I look at this list. Is that the council of Hebeb and Wright, though? It is. Who's in the council?

2:47:29Well, I'll give you a non -exhaustive but accurate list. I mean, it includes Rick Rubin, close friend, Peter Atia, close friend. It includes Joe Strummer, Oliver Sacks, both the Fumar, dead and who I never met, but I've consumed their writings and I know people close to them and I have stories about them. It's got a couple people whose names I'm not gonna disclose. There are a few others here that maybe my dead advisors, all three of them, my dog Costello, how to, he couldn't be, he was so stubborn. You could not get him to do something he didn't want to do. It was like he would, you couldn't move him.

2:48:05And he always was right about the things he didn't want to do. He had an incredible sense of understanding about his environment. My sister is on here. And then, you know, my team, who isn't just my team, but Rob, Mike, Ian, Chris, Martin, Gary, Greg. like Sarah, they're here, right? So these are like any time I'm gonna put something into the world, I look at this list, and I think like, okay, I don't need unanimity, but like what would they say about this? And because I don't need to text them most times, nine times out of 10, I know. Can they infer it just by knowing them? Absolutely. This is something I really wanted to kind of touch on because you've gone.

2:48:44And there are others on that list. So for those that I didn't include, it's like a, I wanna be real. Jim Thibault, right? They know. Yeah, Joe's on here. It's like, I mean, doing an award ceremony. Yeah, Lex is on here. I mean, you know, so, I mean, it's just so clear to me that my brain can't do it right all the time. And I need to call on people alive and dead, like known and that I haven't known to help me. And you know, it feels sort of corny to talk about. But if there's one thing I've tried to do with the podcast, it's to normalize some of the conversations around things like anxiety, stress, sexual health.

2:49:16We've been doing a lot about hormone sexual health for women and men, communication. Normalize some of the discussion around these practices that to some people might seem kind of hokey, but to me, I mean, this list isn't like three out of 10 in terms of the potency scale of like my productivity and feelings of safety and life so that I can go do my best work. It's like 11 out of 10. 11 out of 10. And it's the kind of thing where most of these people don't even know that no one knows they're on their list on this list until now. But I've always had this list in different forms and it's updated over the years.

2:49:55When I was a kid, I mean, growing up I a hero, listen to him every day of my life from 13 on Tim Armstrong, lead singer for Rance and Operation Ivy, transplants. And I'm like, literally, every day and through some magical stroke of luck we've become very close friends. So he was guiding me all along, but he's about, he's 10 years older than I am. He has deep, he's extremely smart, extremely smart. And he has deep understanding of human dynamics and how to be in the world while trying to do creative work. Now he's a musician, not a scientist, but his level of curiosity, intellect, memory. I mean, it's, like, it doesn't just, it for years it inspired me, but now, like, all text or call to him, I did that last week, like, hey, this is a tough situation, really helped me.

2:50:40I called a few other people too. But he's on this list and he has been, since I was 13, how wild is that? It turns out, you know, I never meet your heroes, right? Well, it turns out this hero ended up like wildly exceeding my expectations in the positive direction. You do know that there's someone listening to this. There's probably millions of people listening to this, at least not thousands to whom you're that person, right? That they have this parasocial relationship with you, even if you didn't ask for it, even if... Even if social, I like that. It's almost like paranormal, but it's... Yeah, yeah, yeah, parasocial.

2:51:11That's the time. Get it in there, along with whatever it was, cosplay. We've got a good list and Cuba husbands, Cuba daddies. I'm really fascinated by what it's been like to be a relatively unknown academic working in the annals, just doing your thing, doing your research, to now as a byproduct of a passion to share science -based tools for people, now being sort of thrust out into the public. Like what's the felt sense of this rapid increase in exposure and scrutiny and fame been like? Um, so I'd love to tell you that it's disorienting, but truly by virtue of feeling very aligned with the work and purpose of the work that I'm doing, I feel like I'm at least in terms of my daily activities and where my mind is at.

2:52:02I'm exactly where I, for the first time, I'm like exactly where I, I feel like I'm exactly where I belong. Not because I'm known and the podcast has achieved this recognition for which I'm very grateful and humbled by, but because I love foraging for organizing and dispensing information. So 95 % of my cognitive powers are set toward like the episode I'm preparing for next week or the week after. And I have to like literally pull in my impulse to now take off on a tangent about my use of toast spacers to fix this like imbalance because of like foot health and like I'll go there. That's the thing but like it's all getting teed up.

2:52:42I'll I prepare for podcasts. I someone asked how long it takes me and I realized in total because I start so many months ahead somewhere between very low and the lowest ever would have been 12 but it's typically more like 150 to two hours of preparation and I love every friggin second of it. And so for me it feels great because it allows me to to do what I'm doing. Now in terms of being public facing, I mean, I'm a pretty introverted person. I love close dynamics. You know, if I think for a second about meaning one on one dynamics and small group dynamics, small parties at my house and things, comfortable in crowds, but I'm not interested in being in them per se.

2:53:22But if I think for a second about how many people are gonna listen to something, I'll just, I don't know, I don't think about it. That's not to do it. That's not to do it. You know, it's changed my life dramatically and mostly for the positive, in positive ways. You know, getting filmed while you're in the gym is funny, because I always, if ever I needed to use perfect form, like now I really need it. I'm the guy on the tip raise, man. That's the real scandal. It's not that you like to Joe and R .F .K. post. It's the fact that you can't do preacher curls with perfect tempo. I'm a four -range emotion guy.

2:53:56I'm a four -range emotion guy. But I am the guy on the tip machine every day, not every day, but any damn in the gym. Yeah, getting filmed when you're not aware that you're getting filmed, some security breaches and that it not directly towards me, but towards members of my family and community. Those have been annoying, but that goes with the territory and it'd be mostly lucky. 99 % of interactions are immensely positive. When people come over and say hello, I enjoy it. It's, you know, I don't always have a lot of time. So there are those kinds of things, but I'm somebody who's genuinely curious about other people.

2:54:27So in those interactions, like I want to learn about them, or you know about me, I wanna learn about them. I've always been genuinely curious about other people. This isn't a line. I've been friends with the garbage man, the janitor, the, my dentist, well there I've got stuff in my mouth so it's a one way conversation. But learning about people I think allows one to also deliver information in a way that's more accessible to people. This is something that I would guess, Yes, I would go as far as to say that the level of fame and recognition that I have now is about as like Goldilocks zone as it's possible to get.

2:55:08It's maybe once every 10 to 15 minutes if I'm walking in a crowded area somewhere and it'll be a 10 -minute conversation. A 10 -second conversation of High Mate really loved the podcast. Oh, like Amazon Prime Delivery Driver shouted out of the window. And those are the people that allow us to do what we do, right? I'm so grateful that people are interested in the kinds of information that you put out and then I put out. I mean, I look at them, I look at anyone I interact with as the students in my classroom, the same way I would, the way I manage my comment section on social media classroom rules.

2:55:39You can say whatever you want to me, but don't be uncooled other people, and or I'm gonna block you. Why? It's not like I can't take it. Listen, I grew up in skateboarding. I grew up in academia. The hazing process in those communities, these, very different, was intense. It was physical, psychological, emotional torture at times. And so you develop a very thick skin. I mean, skateboarding, if you do something and you don't make it look right, or something is a little off, like you're gonna own that reputation for years. And so - That's your new nickname. Yeah, you have to have your, I don't know, I'm not gonna say it the way I'd say it, like then, but like, I mean, you have to have your kid has to be right.

2:56:24Everything has to be right. And yet you have to try things. And so learning to work through the narrow constraints of social media is nothing compared to trying to come up through academia where people say, oh nice, nice, great to see you. And then they kill your papers or grants behind your back. It's a game of backstabbing. Now they put reviewers on names on papers. So it conditioned me for it. I will say this, I'm very grateful that all this happened in my 40s, my mid 40s. The start of the podcast when I was 45 on 48 now. It's been three years. Why, why that timing? I just think about the young brain, the 20s, 30s.

2:56:56You know, so much of our identity is formed earlier in life, but we're still trying to figure out who we are. I know exactly who I am. So you've got to get out. I'm the guy that since age five has been gathering, organizing, and disseminating information. I like lots of different kinds of people. I like misfits and runts and winn -in like, and, you know, and jocks and punkers and hippies. and I have gay friends and straight friends like live and live. I love it all. That's why I oriented towards skateboarding and punk rock because it was like all the styles, all the hair styles. So I mean, people think of like just like bullet belts in Mohawk saying, no, then you got your peace pong seeing it, your vegan pong seeing it, I was like, and I have my thing what I liked, but I love the variety because I love the flora and fauna of life.

2:57:37I don't love raccoons or capy bars per se, but I love how they fit into the animal kingdom. and I have an obsession with animals and weird animals and cephalopods and the octopuses and the, you know, the platypus is and all of it. And so for me, like, being on social media, I get to step back and look at all of it. But I'm not going to let anyone decide who I am or who I'm not. Like, I'm the guy who was wearing black shirts before. My colleague, David Feldheim, will tell you this, he's a professor at UCSan Cruz, he wants to eat, he was like, he always wore the black shirt and I was like, yes, it's true.

2:58:10I didn't change at all. I didn't feel like I'd modify myself. I know, you know, I always, I'd hold the door for people. I tried. Am I perfect? No. So it's changed things a lot. And yet it hasn't changed me at all. I love it. Dr. Andrew Hume and ladies and gentlemen, dude, I really appreciate you. Very much appreciate the support you've given me over the last year when I've needed to text you, when I've needed a little bit some pieces. It really does mean a lot to me. So what can people expect remainder of 2023? What have you got coming up? Okay, well I can tell you but first can I just please just take a moment Say thank you for this opportunity.

2:58:48Thanks for the kind words. I will say something very important about you Which is that you know coming up in the various sports ideas skateboarding and science I have a really good eye for the the person like I'm gonna put my money on that person to be at the top at some point down the line. And it's interesting because I'm not talented at many things. I'm proficient at certain things I work really hard, truly. If I have any inborn abilities, it's my memory has always been sharp, but loving the thing you're learning helps. Early on when I saw your content, it created some sense in me based on how you were delivering it, the passion, the honesty behind it, and the ways in which you were like moving through and trying to figure it out, that I was like, this guy is gonna be at the top.

2:59:44And I was right in that you're a scent trajectory predicts that. Like I mean, okay, there's still room for upward trajectory. Great. But you know, everyone's in a while, someone comes along, where you're like, you just love is what he does. It's so clear that he's meant to do this. Like you love, and I think it has a lot to do with the genuineness which you invite on and meet your guests. Like you're not going to put someone on because they're going to get clicks. You're going to invite people on because you really want to talk to them and that's very clear. And I think I know that resonates with people.

3:00:15So I've been truly an avid consumer of your content from Go, and it's been awesome to see your ascent. And I'm sure that this is just the beginning. So I want to say thank you. Thank you. And I look forward to deepening our friendship. And that's a real thing because early on when Lex and I became friends through podcasting, at some point I realized I was like, we need to hang out without these microphones in front of us. I went out to Austin for two weeks. We just hung out. We just hung out. It's also where he did the Jiu -Jitsu thing or he choked you out. Yeah, yeah. So got me there. I get you back, Lex, but not with Jiu -Jitsu.

3:00:49Psychological Jiu -Jitsu. But I hope we get the chance to spend time. And I really just want to say whatever you're doing, keep going because it's awesome and and it's clear that you're really working hard in your craft, and I'm really excited about the lives, and we can talk about that. Thank you. Rest of 2023, I'm gonna try and finish this book that I've been procrastinating on for a few years now. It's mainly going to be a book of protocols, so it's very straightforward as to what to do. It's kind of the what to do stuff, not so much story. I think there's a need for that, or so I've told. Yeah, that's gonna break the world and not think of that.

3:01:22Well, I'm putting my heart and soul into it. I've got an idea of completion date, and then publication date. Pre -sales should probably be February and it should come out end of 24. So, and I'm putting everything I've gotten to that book. While still podcasting, we're gonna do a series, we've done these guest series. We did one with Dr. Andy Galpin on fitness. We did one on mental health with Dr. Paul Conti. We're gonna do one with Dr. Matthew Walker on sleep and one with Dr. Anilemke on addiction and dopamine soon. So that the guest series are that going forward. And then, you know, there were times when we thought, okay, we need to do something else.

3:02:00Like, do we need an app? And we've really taken a step back. We're just like, we're just going to keep searching for, organizing, and dispensing information mainly in the form of the Monday podcast occasion of these guest series. We do have a premium channel that generates revenue that is directed towards scientific studies. I'm going to talk too much about this, but a significant portion of that has been put to philanthropy, to laboratories working on eating disorders on mind body states, on intermittent fasting. Didn't you recently redo your website? We did the website. We did the website. Yeah, so if you go to HeuronLab .com, the engineers have done a great job where it's highly searchable now and take you to specific timestamps.

3:02:36You could even say like dopamine procrastination, I'll take you to that particular timestamp. And I think as the AI tools get better, there'll be more things like that. But really it's going to just be more of the same. Live shows? Any more live shows this year? We got live shows coming up in Australia. So the first one in Sydney sold out the opera house one sold out, but there's another one being announced soon And then there's a Melbourne and Brisbane Well, should people go if they want to sign up for that? It's hurimmanlab .com TOUR to get tickets. Oh, yeah, and those are fun and they're very different than the podcast and but you know I'm not a joke to a few months back with traditional media.

3:03:13I wasn't joking that you know I might run for office someday like from what I've seen over the experience of politics like I want to retract that I have zero minus one interest in running for office. But I have every interest in just continuing to indulge this obsession slash delight that I get from learning and teaching and sharing information. So like, yeah, that's the plan. And you know, keep the main thing the main thing, man. Yeah, that's the thing, you know, and I never know, like I come from a long line of academic advisors that all died early. Like I hope I live a long time, but I don't know if it's gonna be a cancer abullot that are a boss that's gonna take me out or old age.

3:03:51I have no idea. So I'm just leaning into this as hard as I can. Hell yeah, I appreciate you, man. Thank you for today. I appreciate you. Thanks so much, Chris.