#709 - Max Lugavere - The Terrifying Link Between Diet & Mental Health

26:47They're breaking out in hives. They've got inflammation. They've got tension headaches, no one ate gluten, no one in the entire room ate gluten, and you had all of the symptoms of gluten intolerance manifesting. It's wild. So I can no sebo effect. Yep, correct. Yeah, I mean, I'm very much immersed in the wellness world. And I love the wellness industry, but I will concede that. But I think it has done some damage in the sense that there's a lot of misinformation now about what foods are beneficial, what foods are less so. And I've been, I've drank the Kool -Aid at certain points in my life where there was a time when I thought dairy was sort of like an unclean food, and that it wasn't ideal from a health standpoint.

27:39And now I mean, I'm the biggest advocate of consuming dairy. I think dairy is a great food if you tolerate it. For example, you know, there's like this idea that clean eating is somehow dairy -free. It's gluten -free. It's free of all the things, right? And I think it's it's again really important to educate with nuance around these topics because the people are the proportion of our population that is celiac is non -trivial. It's one to two percent and a lot of people with celiac or I'm sorry celiac so you know one to two percent is celiac and then there's this spectrum of symptoms that people will get that is attributed to gluten called non -sealiac gluten sensitivity.

28:20And that's a real thing and that's widely underdiagnosed. So a lot of people do experience symptoms when they ingest gluten. And gluten is something that, the dose, if you want to consider it that, and speak in terms of gluten as something that is is ultimately dozed is higher than it's ever been. I mean, we now we breed wheat to contain higher levels of gluten because it provides a mouth feel that we enjoy, it's that gooey texture. And also we're eating wheat, I mean, wheat is one of these like foundational ingredients to the the, the, the deluge of ultra processed foods that your average person is now consuming and mass.

29:00It's wheat with breakfast, lunch, and dinner and wheat snacks all in between. So the dose of gluten that your average person is ingesting is massive. And I'm not saying that people need to avoid gluten if they're not explicitly sensitive to it, but it is a protein that humans don't properly break down. It does stimulate a protein in the gut called zangolin, which basically leads to increased permeability, sort of increased in passage of ingredients from the compounds from the lumen of the gut in through circulation through what are typically tight junctions that are closed. Oh, this is like leaky gut.

29:39Yeah, right. Yeah, I've learned, so I had, I went to fountain life in Dallas and I had a full body MRI, brain angiogram, heart angiogram, gut microbiome analysis, dexascan balance, everything, full, full, full, full, full, works. And they came back and they said, you need to take amrea, colostrum, colostrum. Yeah, they said, we need to just, it's not bad, but your gut could be less leaky. And that was the first time I thought, I didn't even know what the fuck leaky gut was. I didn't know if it was due to gluten or anything else, but yeah, I think this, like, colostrum products, generally are gonna be more widely discussed.

30:20Yeah, so it seems like overall gluten, just something to probably keep in the back of your mind, regardless of how well you think that you tolerate it. Yeah, and also the, It's also the context in which the gluten is being consumed, I think, which also plays a role and is not something that's being discussed enough. So we live in a time of widespread gut dysbiosis, right? Again, and not to keep harping on this because I don't want to sound like a broken record, but your average American adult diet is by and large ultra processed. One of the consequences of this is that most people aren't consuming adequate fiber.

30:55Now fiber is not an essential nutrient, but your average American today I believe consumed somewhere between 5 and 15 grams of fiber a day, right? So fiber is one of these non -essential nutrients, but it seems to be associated with positive health outcomes. It seems to be associated with lower levels of inflammation, greater longevity and the like. And so there is a degree of resilience that we should all be able to cultivate with regard to our gut health that we're simply not because, again, we're just, we're eating predominantly junk foods in the background with the background of a low fiber diet.

31:26And so, whereas we should have the resilience that it takes to be able to ingest a protein like gluten and be all right with it. Well, we're eating more gluten than ever before in human history. We're eating less fiber than our ancestors likely ever consumed. It's estimated that our hunter -gatherer ancestors were consuming upwards of 150 grams of fiber a day, which is like orders of magnitude more than we're consuming today. So it's like it's the it's the it's the dose. It's the compound. It's the context. Everything matters. And so Can you explain to me what's going on with these new products that are low net Cobb Like some cereals have this some bars have this What fuckery Is happening on the back end?

32:18What are net carbs? And is there any is there any sort of wizardry going on? which is hiding something in the deep dock annals of the ingredient profile. Yeah, very likely. So a lot of these, you know, net carbs really are mainly a concern for people who are on a ketogenic diet. And I think it's really important to lay out upfront. A lot of people are on the ketogenic diet because they think it's the ultimate diet for weight loss. And if you prefer, if a ketogenic diet is a diet that you are most easily able to adhere to, then by all means have at it. And I also think I have to add all these sort of nuances and disclaimers because, because as hashtag science.

32:53Yes. And I think it's important. The ketogenic diet, I think, is a really important diet, particularly in the context of neurological conditions, epilepsy primarily, but also, I think, now we're starting to see neurodegenerative age -related conditions, like Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease. It's a very low carbohydrate diet. And so net carbohydrates come into play because people want to be able to consume processed foods while still allowing ketogenesis, right? still allowing for ketone generation by eating low carbs. But I think one of the problems with this is that a lot of these low carb foods are so high in calories that it's like you might as well eat the original food.

33:33Like unless you really have a medical reason for being in ketosis. And so a lot of the food manufacturers that produce these keto foods, they achieve having low net carbs despite having a ton of calories by using either fibers which are inaccessible to us, we were unable to, humans unable to break down fiber into its, into glucose. So it passes through the small intestine basically, unadulterated and then it becomes food essentially like a food substrate for the bacteria that live in our large intestines. And this is true for fibers found in whole foods. What remains to be seen is whether or not these extracts that are now being used as sweeteners in these ketogenic products function the same way.

34:16I think the jury is still out. The FDA last I recall is investigating ingredients like tapioca fiber syrup and all those kind of chikari root fiber to see if they actually do pass through the small intestine assimilated, undigested, which would allow them to maintain that they are in fact fibers. But I've seen people because now there is this sort of trend of people wearing non -diabetics wearing continuous glucose monitors And I've heard reports from people that follow me that they'll eat a lot of these keto products that allegedly have very few net carbs and regardless they still see a pretty significant spike in their blood sugar Which would suggest that they these fibers are not actually going on true fibers.

35:02Yeah So at the end of the day, I think you know, and this is again another area where I've evolved I used to, by default, opt for these fake foods with the fake fibers that have low nut carbs. But now, I think, ultimately, a cookie is a cookie, ice cream is ice cream. So, if you're going to reach for one of these foods and you don't have a medical necessity for being in therapeutic ketosis, you might as well offer the real thing and be cognizant of the overall calorie count of these products because at the end of the day, I mean, they're junk foods. What do you think of this trend of young girls avoiding eating meat and protein and instead replacing it with salads and smoothies and just rough age for days?

35:43Horrible. Yeah, so I'm a huge advocate, an unapologetic advocate for omnivory. I think it's, you know, there's this push at the public health scale towards plant -based diets. and also online, you see obviously, you know, a lot of women in particular have embraced these diets. I think in part, and I'm not, obviously I'm not a woman, I don't know what their lived experiences like, but what I've been able to glean from my friends and other experts in this area is that a lot of women avoid meat and protein, and they opt instead for salads because they think that it's going to make them smaller to eat that way, to eat like a rabbit.

36:22And this is a big problem. You know, a lot of women today have body image issues, I think perpetuated at least in part by social media, the fact that you see people, men and women that have phenomenal bodies that are usually augmented. Either male, I just to interject that, male body dismalf, mafia will overtake women within the next two decades. It's untracked to overtake it. Yeah, it's crazy, it's crazy. I mean, the pressure to look a certain way now on social media, I mean, they're augmented, they're augmented like behind the camera, right? They're on the post. and then post, yeah, post being posted, yeah.

36:56So it's really problematic. And so, you know, the pressures, I mean, women have always faced body pressure, right? I think this is a fairly new arena for the fellas, but yeah, women, I think, have always wanted to, particularly since the 90s, like a pure smaller, there's this idea that eating meat, I think, is masculine, that it's gonna make you bigger, that it's harder to digest. I mean, steaks should actually be, steaks is incredibly, should be very easy to digest. The problem is a lot of people that are on low meat diets, they're depriving their bodies of the raw materials required to create stomach acid.

37:33So if you're on a low meat diet, then you decide, you know, once in a blue moon to have a piece of red meat, well, you might be low in the minerals required to generate adequate stomach acid to allow you to properly digest that food. and you will mistake the discomfort after eating that meat as, oh, this is what meat eating meat is like for all people, right? You've conditioned your stomach to not be able to do the thing. So what is the result for girls in the way that they look and feel by being roughage -pelt? Well, I mean, roughage is like, I'm the biggest advocate of eating dark leafy greens.

38:10I think dark leafy greens are an incredible food, but if that's all you're eating, you know, they are hard to digest. I mean, for example, when anybody who's ever had a procedure on the large bowel, you're told prior to the procedure to go on a low residue diet. A low residue diet is a low fiber diet. Red meat is low residue. Basically, the residue is the indigestible material that makes its way down to the large intestine that gets then fermented and can potentially create, particularly if you're adapted to it, symptoms like gas and bloating and things like that. Stakes should be one of the easiest foods to digest.

38:50On the other hand, you have women and people in general, not just not to single out women, but people that they base their whole diets around cellulose, like greens and indigestible plant material. They wonder why they're walking around bloated all the time. They're also studies show that people who are on vegetarian and vegan diets tend to eat less protein. We know that protein is really important for a number of reasons. It's satiating at the very least, but it also helps to preserve and grow your muscle tissue. It's important for providing amino acids, which are the back bones to your neurotransmitters.

39:27So yeah, there is, I think, a consequence to basing your diet around just like rabbit food. Well, it seems to go hand in hand with a trend that, at least as far as I can tell, is kind of falling away now, which is like the thigh gap obsession, very willowy kind of, you know, the London lock model, kind of super sort of stringy thing. But even within that, there's a softness to the body type, right, of people, both guys and girls, that do that because it, again, thankfully is falling away in the pivot from thin spell to fitspo. I think has actually largely been really good in that encouraging resistance training, encouraging higher calorie meals, prioritization of protein, more focus on training, even like a bit of g -flux theories thing coming in, like let's try and create a calorie deficit through both calorie restriction but also through training increase.

40:26So you know both sides of the the kai ko equation. But you see and I see it as well, man, like I see a lot of the girls that We used to work with our events company, 18, 19, 20 years old, and you're dancing for our events company, and you want to look good in your dances outfit on stage or whatever. And the girls that would push a little bit harder on calories and train would have a different kind of physique in the way that it presented. The skin seemed a little bit thinner and tighter and more translucent, and you could see the shape of their bodies underneath it as opposed to someone that's just dieting themselves into the ground, 1 ,300 calories a day in a desperate attempt to try and get down.

41:10And there's like a softness. Yeah, there's a softness despite they're not being much there. What is there still feels like that? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is a recipe when you zoom out and you extrapolate out 10, 20, 30, 40 years down the road. I mean, that's a recipe for sarcopenia at the very release. What's that? It's accelerated muscle wasting and just a lack of strength as one ages, which is fairly common these days. The worst is sarcopenical obesity. So it's like excess adiposity, along with being undermuscled. Oh, yeah. Dr. Gabrielle Lyme was on the show this week talking about her muscle -centred medicine.

41:50Great. Yeah. Yeah, this is a big movement. I think this is again, so much sort of convergent trends happening here. We've got maybe the sign side coming in, we've got that. But yeah, dude, I mean... It's super, yeah, it's not even to mention the important minerals and micronutrients that women are potentially missing out on that are particularly important to the pre -menopausal woman. So, for example, heme iron, which is found primarily in red meat. Red meat is the ultimate iron supplement. and women who are pre -menstrual, I mean, there's like, anemia is super common. Iron deficiency anemia is super common today.

42:30And... Well, women lose quite a bit of iron, 178 days. There you go, yeah. So, I mean, we're gonna get, we're gonna get red flag from mansplaining, I'm sure. Ah! Don't tell me how my periods work. I don't even like them. No, but... No, you're 100 % right though. I think like, you know, their women and the Fitzbo thing, I think is great, you know, in the sense that it's gotten more women sort of aware to the benefits of resistance training. And, you know, a lot of us have worked really hard to dispel the myth that resistance training is going to lead to a bigger bulkier body. It doesn't, you know, women have testosterone, but one -tenth the testosterone of men, and it's really important for, you know, for libido.

43:14It's important for well -being, body composition, but it's not going to make you, it's not How can I lead to you ending up looking like Chris Bomstead? Well, I said this yesterday to keep him and do you realize how desperately hard I've tried for a decade and a half to become bulky? Like, I work most moments of every day to put things into my body and do stuff to my body to become bulky. Like, you're not accidentally going to do a couple of supernated bicep curls and then look like sea bum. Exactly. You know, it's not going to creep up on you. And if it does, please tell me the protocol that you were doing.

43:46Same. We'll get back to talking to Max in one minute, but first I need to tell you about element. Thank you. Element contains a science -backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium and magnesium with no junk, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, or any other BS. It's how I've started my morning for over three years now, and it helps to regulate my appetite, curb cravings, and optimize my brain health. First thing in the morning, you don't need to have coffee, your caffeine receptors, the adenosine system, isn't even active for the first 90 minutes of the day, but your adrenal system is and salt acts on your adrenal system.

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44:59Yeah, I mean, this kind of research comes out all the time and it's super interesting and it's not to say that all you need to do is two minutes a day of exercise, right? That's not the point of the study. But what I think the drive home message is that we're not not impotent to these kinds of conditions, which now seem to be so rampant today, right, like cancer. I've had a number of cancer experts on my podcast, As of Late, actually Thomas Saferead, you know, as a wonderful expert in this field. Also, Joe Zondell is a good friend of mine who is another cancer expert. And the resounding advice that you get from both of these experts is that exercise really is medicine.

45:42I mean, it's super, super important in terms of reducing inflammation, in terms of building your robustness, your resilience. Yeah, it's crucial. And so I don't know if two minutes a day isn't necessarily going to suffice, but yeah, I mean, again, like today, the milieu of the Western, not just diet, but lifestyle, we're largely sedentary, like leisure time physical activity is at an all time low. And we're starting to see increased rates of cancer now among younger people. There was another study that made major headlines recently that found that rates of cancer and particularly malignant cancer among cohort that typically you wouldn't see much of this type of cancer in is now increasing, right?

46:27Rates of breast cancer have, I think, doubled since just 50 years ago. So, I mean, there's something in the modern world, of one variable, myriad variables that have become essentially toxic. And I think one of the variables that is essentially toxicogenic is the fact that we are now that so many of us are sedentary as a big problem. And it doesn't take a ton of exercise. You don't have to be a Jim Broe, like you or I, to reap the benefits of exercise. But I think it is super important to have an exercise routine, and particularly one that prioritizes resistance training. I mean, this idea that you can just be active, like a lot of older adults I think are told to just be active, right?

47:09Which I think is typically taken as just walk, you know, just like walk as much as you can and walking is great. Walking is great. No matter where on the age spectrum you are, but I think resistance training has long been sort of thought to be this pastime of bros and And I think that's a big problem. I mean, proudly proud proudly. Yeah, pastime of bros There you go. Dude, the 10 minute to 15 minute walk after eating, for me is about as close of a super power as I've been able to find. And I first got taught this from Stume and Gill, like four years ago, Back Pain expert, flew up to Canada to see him.

47:51And he was doing it primarily for the relieving of lower back pain. And what he was doing was you need to walk small doses frequently and a good cue for that is when you have something to eat. You're going to eat at least multiple times a day, go for the walk afterward. And he mentioned at the time, there's some benefits to downstream, maybe mentioned a couple of bits. And just the last five years, Mark Bell and Stan Effeding, right, with the energy calls at the 10 minute walk, but 15 seems better. And if you're eating, you know, if you get one in on a morning to get some sunlight in the eyes because your huboom is piled.

48:29And then you have three meals a day and you do, if you can get a nice 10 to 15 minute loop from wherever you are, that's also your 10 ,000 steps sorted. That's also going to improve your insulin sensitivity. That's also going to help you to blow off a little bit of that spike that you get post -eating. It's going to the muscles, like the contralateral muscles that run across the stomach. It actually helps to move food, or at least it does for me. Five a big meal. I actually feel like the food is able to move through my digestion more easily if I go for a walk after The two nights that we've been here We've had big dinners both times cheesecake factory and buffalo wild wings because I am a child And both times we've been for a walk for 15 minutes afterward I can go to sleep more easily on an evening time.

49:13It's just it's a real phenomenal hack and I think that struggling to get your walks in. Maybe you're concerned about what's happening with insulin. Maybe you want to get a little bit more time outside in nature and be away from your phone. I love these habits where you can stack a bunch of different things on top of them. I get some more time outside. I'm going to get some more sunlight. I'm going to get some more fresh air. I'm not going to be on my phone. Blah blah blah. It's a real 10 minute walk, 15 minute walk after eating, I'm all in. Yeah, I mean walking moves, there are so many benefits to walking, but I mean you have have fluids in your body that don't have their own heart.

49:46For example, lymphatic flow, walking helps to promote that, which plays a role in digestion. We know that just a short walk post -meal reduces that post -prandial blood sugar spike, which is thought to be beneficial, particularly if you have glucose tolerance issues. We know that walking helps to remove fat in the blood. We see that there's an association, particularly in younger people, around 7 ,000 to 10 ,000 steps a day and lower risk of all cause mortality. And then about 10 ,000, I think to 12 ,000 steps among older people. The whole 10 ,000 steps a day thing is a little bit BS, but there actually was a meta analysis that came out fairly recently, I think over the past year, that found that it is, there is actually a zone that's not too far off from that 10 ,000 step mark that seems to be associated with.

50:36You need to pick a number. You know what I mean? Exactly. Yeah, it depends on how quickly walk, I suppose. There was a New York Post article titled, I'm raising my child vegan. It's not as simple as you think and you replied and said, child abuse. Yes. What's going on? Yeah, I mean, I think we are biologically adapted to be omnivores. And we know that the neonate relies on the mother deriving adequate nutrition from her food. food. And there are the if you look at the most nutrient dense foods available to your average person today, there's literally a paper people can look at a published by Biel et al two to three years ago that ranked all the most nutrient dense foods, particularly by nutrients of concern.

51:27So nutrients that people tend to under consume today, zinc, vitamin B12 and things like that. And animal products were took all the top spots with the exception being dark leafy greens, which are thought to be very very nutrient dense because they're so calorie sparse and they can, they're a good source of vitamin C and folate and calcium and the like. But animal products are most nutrient dense foods and when you're a pregnant woman, you are eating for two. So, you know, we already see that pregnant women tend to under consume protein, you know, consumption of colon, which is a really important nutrient for, I mean, you put Coney, right?

52:05Citi Coney in your neurotropic beverage right here, like super important for brain development, for cognitive function, vitamin B12, crucially important. There's so many DHA fat, right? Like preformed DHA fat, which is found exclusively in animal products. You can consume omega -3s from plants, but humans are very inefficient at converting it to its usable forms in the body. And so, I mean, that's from the standpoint of pregnancy. Like, if I were at the stage in my life where I were looking to procreate, I would want to procreate with an omnivorous woman. And it's like saying something like that is controversial today, but it shouldn't be.

52:42Max Lugavir wants to procreate with an omnivorous woman, ladies. You have, this is the sign that you have been looking for. It's the bad signal. Yeah, so I mean, that's super important. I think like you, with regard to plant -based diets, you can cobble together a diet that leads to better biomarkers and ultimately look a plant -based diet compared to the standard American diet is going to be a healthier choice. You can cobble together a diet that with the use of protein supplements, perhaps, can afford you a fantastic body composition. But I think from the standpoint of pregnancy and ultimately development and childhood development, I think it's really important to allow your child, who's inevitably going to be a picky to eat her as it is because that's inevitably a child.

53:32Because they're a child, yeah. I think it's really important to not cross off the list because of some silly ideology, one of the most nutrient dense, the most nutrient dense category of foods available to your average human. What do you have any idea what will happen to a child who is lacking in many of the sort of things that a vegan diet would cause that to be a bereft. Yeah, I mean look at the stunted development Failure to thrive. I mean, you know, I just think it's I think you're It's essentially sometimes referred to as nutritionism this idea that humans with all of our hubris Can distill food into its constituent nutrients and then replicate food in a way with with processed alternatives I mean if you take something like the product soil and it's a perfect example of that right It's like what happens when Silicon Valley people try to create food?

54:26They break down a food into its constituent nutrients, right? The data that makes a food food according to them. This is the code of food. Yeah, this is the code of food and and we have this ultra -process Ultimately crap product, but here it is, right? Like you're not gonna develop a deficiency disease if this is all you consume every day And so that's like nutritionism and I think It fails time and time again because we didn't evolve with these nutrients and isolation We've evolved with food and we have a handful of nutrients that we know are essential, but that list of what's essential What's conditionally essential and what's non -essential is changing all the time as it should and foods Don't just contain these single nutrients in isolation, right?

55:08Like an orange isn't just doesn't just provide vitamin C Right there are countless other innumerable like nutrients that we have yet to even name likely compounds in in an orange that might have an entourage effect that might increase the absorption, the bioavailability of the vitamin C, for example. And the RDA for vitamin C is set to avoid scurvy at the population level, right? But that doesn't mean that we're all consuming adequate levels of vitamin C to promote optimal collagen synthesis, for example, which we know vitamin C is involved in. So, you know, foods have all of these different nutrients and you take a food like red meat, right?

55:44Like red meat has, it contains vitamin B12, which somebody on a plant -based diet might say, well, that's the one essential nutrient you can't get on a plant -based diet, I can just take a vitamin B12 supplement. But what about the constellation of nutrients that that vitamin B12 comes with, like the hem iron, the carnitine, the karnacine, the creatine, which we know is really important from a standpoint of muscular health, right? And so you're just depriving a baby of all of those different nutrients. And look, the standard American diet isn't great either. Like, you have a lot of children these days that have early onset hypertension, early onset type 2 diabetes.

56:20So I'm not saying that the alternative is the standard American diet. But I think that you can, that, yeah, that, like, you can, the ultimate optimal diet for certainly for developing human, but also for an adult is a diet that incorporates both animal products and plant products. It's interesting to think that the child abuse thing is like a really interesting frame of it because you are locking in to this neonatal human a kind of development that they didn't choose. Yeah. That they had no volition in saying yes or no to. And I guess, you know, largely until the age of probably 14 or 15 when they can use the stove themselves and actually fully understand what's going into them.

57:09You know, even throughout preschools and so on and so forth, you're still largely doing that. But when it's you have to what you eat is what your child eats in some regard it's wild. I have a friend Alex who was a vegan philosopher for a good while he was ethically convinced by Peter Singer's work animal liberation which I still think from an ethical perspective. I think that we're going to look back on what we do now with much of animal farming and think of it as abhorrent. I think you're going to look back and see it as not quite sort of holocausty, but in that sort of realm, oh my god, we had sentient animals and we did this to them, right?

57:53He became completely vegan -pilled, he became an advocate, he is an unbelievably effective debater at everything, but particularly for veganism. And he found, after going vegan, and making a commitment, making a sacrifice to the philosophy that he, the ethics that he'd been convinced by, he found that he was suffering. His body and his mental health had both taken a pretty big, like an increasingly big hit from this. And he posted the day that he became unconvinced that he could meet an adequately balanced vegan diet. it. He immediately felt like it was his, um, he was compelled to tell his audience because again, he came here, he got here from being ethical and being truthful and high integrity with his ethics.

58:44And then as soon as those had changed, he decided to put a post out and I said, don't do this. You are opening yourself up to a ton of criticism, wait until you can do the video and he said, well, yeah, but what if someone sees me eating salmon on a train or something in the UK? Like I'm not going to feel in line. So again, he was like hoisted by his own ethics again. He got absolutely pilloried by the internet for doing it. You were supposed to, you said that you understood in a blah, blah, blah, and then he did a video talking through how he was struggling to be able to eat a completely balanced, sufficiently robust plant -based diet and again, people had massive problems.

59:22And now I think he's probably one -year hence -ish. Well, mental health is way better, his pursuit that he goes because after in life is flourishing, his energy levels have improved, all of this stuff. Again, this isn't for me to say, look, vegans, you're condemning yourself to a life of low energy misery, but there are people out there for whom the limitations that you place on yourself by going on a vegan diet make, getting a balanced diet so much more difficult again. And if you're a 24 year old YouTuber and writer, who maybe still needs to do a bit of growing up, Life's hard enough as it, like you're just trying to get it before midday.

1:00:04You know what I mean? Like you're trying not to go out and party with your friends too much. You're trying to learn what productivity is and how do I do my taxes? And like I've got a relationship or I'm not in whatever. You know, these are additional levels of complexity and difficulty that I don't think you need to add into your life. And yeah, you know, this is very, very much kind of fallen by the wayside now and Alex is out on the other side. But I really respected him for what he decided to do with that. He said, look, I've given this a crack. I'm still ethically convinced by veganism, but physiologically, I don't think that I can do, I don't think I can commit to this.

1:00:42And yeah, out the other side of that, he's now just, he's crushing it. He's absolutely crushing it. Also, I mean, as you referenced, when you're younger, you have more resilience. Like a younger body is a more resilient body. I mean, think about all the late nights, all the, I mean, for me, like when I was in college, I used to drink a lot. I don't have a problem with alcohol, but like I would consume alcohol, I would do other things like, and your body rebounds really fast when you're young, right? Because you have... Lative rubber and magic. Yeah, we're a highly adaptable species. That's one of the amazing things about being a human being, right?

1:01:16But as you get older, I mean, I'm telling you, I have a lot of friends that are in middle age and that are still clinging onto this idea of a plant -based diet being optimal. and again, they look sarcopenic. You know, I mean, you can find vegan bodybuilders. Like those outliers exist, you know, some of them are augmented, don't necessarily cop to it. All good, not judging. Or maybe judging a little bit because they attribute their gains to being vegan. Not the exogenous testosterone. There you go. Again, you can cobble, like, we know that plant protein at this point, an animal protein, when you consume enough protein, the muscle gains are comparable.

1:01:53So that, you know, there's no issue there. But for most, again, for most people, for most people that are not obsessive fitness junkies, it's a big problem. They tend to under consume protein. And as you get older, you become anabolic resistant. I'm sure Gabriella Lyon talked about this. You become resistant to losing. So the little losing that you're getting on a plant -based diet is becoming even less effective, you know, as you get older. And whether it's angrippause or menopause, you're fighting a losing battle with regard to your hormones, phones ultimately, unless you're on HRT. And so it's a huge problem, but younger people, maybe they adopt a vegan diet for a few months or years and they feel good, right?

1:02:31The body has stores of certain vitamins. They're, again, more resilient. They're more adaptable. And so it's fine, but yeah, it's not uncommon these days to see whether they're influencers on YouTube or on Instagram that were previously vegan, either covertly eating animal products, which I've heard happens. like they're doing it covertly, or they make the switch, right? I mean, I mean, in steak wrapped in spinach and no one can see what's inside of this. Dude, it happens. It happens. And with regard to mental health specifically, there are so many nutrients in animal products that are just required by the human brain.

1:03:04I mean, we attribute the development of the human brain to access to the nutrients found in animal products. Right? So this idea, again, it's just hubris, right? It's hubris, and I hate the but I'll use it privilege. That we think that we can cobble together a diet that mimics the kind of diet that we have. We know better than nature. We don't need to use, no, no, no, no, no, we don't need to grow it and pull it out of the ground. And we can do it from code. From first, we'll matrix our way into creating a diet. Yeah, it's wild, man. Talk to me about this new film that you just finished. You very kindly sent me a link so that I could get first access to it last night.

1:03:43Yeah, so it's called Little Empty Boxes and people can watch a trailer at LittleEmptyBoxes .com and it's the first ever dementia prevention film and it's about 75 % narrative, 25 % science, but the narrative follows my mom and why I do anything that it is that I do is because my mom got very sick at a very young age. She developed a rare form of dementia called Louis Body Dementia And I mean, this was 10 years ago that I began working on the project. And back then, I didn't know anything about Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's disease or anything like that. I was just a scared son looking to do whatever was possible to help his mom in a time of immense trauma and tragedy.

1:04:29And so the film kind of is like a time capsule. It documents everything that my mom went through, the descent into dementia. It's really, really difficult and it's been a labor of love. And ultimately the film is a tribute to my mom, but it's also a tribute to the science. So as much as I think we get into debates on the interpretations of science, particularly in the field of nutrition, which is where my passion happens to lie, I'm a huge fan of science and I think it's incredible. and so the film, I created to be a tribute to this growing field of acceptance known as dementia prevention, whereas 10 years prior, you couldn't mention dementia and prevention within the same sentence.

1:05:16You'd get like produce thrown at you because dementia for a long time was thought to be an unpreventable condition. Like even the Alzheimer's Association was one of the largest nonprofit organizations, you know, for years and years and years, you know, would drive home this fear -based talking point, I think primarily to raise funding, that dimensions the only Alzheimer's disease, the only condition that can be prevented, treated, or slowed. And we know now, I mean, thanks to incredible research that the potential for prevention is high. So the documentary is like a testament to that, and it offers some, I think, really actionable tips.

1:05:55And it's in many ways the prequel to my work, you know, because since embarking on this production process. I've written my books, I've launched my podcast, and you know, I'm grateful that many people and mind blown actually that many people consider me an expert in this field because I'm ultimately a lay person. Like I'm somebody who really began just to be able to, you know, with the intent of cleaning answers for their mom. But I've learned a ton, you know, over the course of my journey, but the documentary really is to document what it's like being a caregiver for somebody with dementia and to show people what it really is like and how valuable an important prevention is because dementia begins in the brain decades before the first symptom.

1:06:44And this is something that is when you look at the science coming out about dementia, Alzheimer's based therapeutics, Alzheimer's drug trials have a 99 .6 % fell rate. they're just dismoly effective, if at all. And this is because there's a condition that manifests in the brain over a span of years, if not decades. So it's really important, I think, for people, like younger people, millennials, you know, you're the oldest millennials out in their 40s. And so the time is like, there's no better time than right now to start thinking about your brain with your choices because, I mean, once it goes, it goes.

1:07:24What are the big myths and realizations about neurodegeneration, dementia, Parkinson's stuff like that? What were the big, un -predicted insights that you got on this journey? Well, I think for one people think that it's genetic. You have genetic risk factors. So the Apoi -4 alleles, the most well -defined of the Alzheimer's and ultimately neurodegenerative risk factors. Is that the one that Chris Hemsworth realized that he had? Yeah, so he realized that he was a homozygous carrier. He was an APOE 4 .4, which increases your risk around 12 to 14 fold. 12 to 14 fold. Yeah. Wow. How low is this? Could it be 12 to 14 fold from 0 .1 to 0 .12 or whatever?

1:08:12Yeah, that's an interesting question. We always got to consider the base right now. Yeah, like the absolute risk. Today about 5 million people in the US have Alzheimer's disease. So 5 million out of 300 million. It's this fairly, you know, low proportion, but that number is set to explode in the coming years. The rates of Alzheimer's are increasing, and I think it's clear that we have what are called modifiable risk factors, and the rates of those modifiable risk factors are also increasing. So for example, if you have obesity, your risk for Alzheimer's disease increases. If you have type 2 diabetes, your risk for Alzheimer's disease increases between two and fourfold.

1:08:51If you have hypertension, today one and two adults have hypertension, that increases your risk. Stacked on top of each other. Yeah, exactly. So we're seeing increasing rates of all of those conditions. And so that's what is that doing? It's not doing our brain health, our collective brain health, any favors. And so that's one of them that it's genetic. You know, the vast majority of dementia cases are attributable to an interaction between the genetic risk factors that you may carry and the environment. But also with regard to genes which are a non -modifiable risk factor. Of course, there is what the concept of polygenic risk.

1:09:26So you might have genes that we have yet to elucidate that are canceling out the risk of said risk genes. Two to three percent of Alzheimer's cases are attributable to a deterministic gene called early onset familial. Again, tiny minority. But as recently as 2020, the Lancet Commission on Dementia pointed out that at least 40 % of Alzheimer's cases are preventable. And I think that's a gross underestimate because in that paper, it didn't even talk about all the, it didn't even talk about exposure to environmental toxicants or drugs. We know that people who routinely take anticholinergic drugs are at higher risk of developing dementia and that wasn't even elicidated in the paper.

1:10:06So I think the vast majority of Alzheimer's cases are potentially preventable and I don't claim to have all the answers. We don't. Certainly, but but yeah, there is a lot that people can do. If you were to, I always like inverting stuff like this. If you were to try and design a lifestyle for someone that would onset their predisposition or lack of neurodegeneration as quickly as possible, what would you prescribe that person? If you were like you had some demon from hell and you want to try and make this person's brain degenerate toward some dementia, Parkinsonian, style thing, what would you get that person to do?

1:10:47Yeah, I would deprive them of sleep. We know sleep is crucially important. Sleep is when your brain is actually cleaning itself of proteins that are associated with the condition. So I'm like beta, tau protein we see increases in cerebral spinal fluid on just one night of short and sleep. So I would deprive them of sleep. Sleep is really important with regard to brain health. It's important with regard to mental health, but it's very important with regard to how your brain actually functions. So there's that. Chronic stress is a killer. We know that chronically elevated cortisol leads to shrinkage of the hippocampus, which is the most vulnerable structure of the brain.

1:11:21The first one of the first structures of the brain to be affected by Alzheimer's disease. It's where it's the memory processing center of the brain. We know that chronically elevated cortisol, which is rot by chronically elevated levels of stress, is not good from a brain health standpoint. It also creates an inflammatory effect in the body. I would, from a dietary standpoint, I would give a person exclusively ultra -processed foods to consume. We know that these kinds of foods not only create inflammation in the body, but they phenomena of insulin resistance, and we know that insulin resistance is not good from a brain health standpoint.

1:12:05Actually, in Alzheimer's disease, you see a reduction in the brain's ability to generate energy from glucose. In the Alzheimer's effect of brain, that ability is diminished by about 50%. The brain is a ravenous energy consumer. That's just like lights out for the brain. You can imagine how detrimental that might be. We see that the level of glucose metabolism in the Alzheimer's affected brain is actually very strongly correlated with the degree of insulin resistance in the body. So you want to make sure that you're as insulin sensitive as possible. And so one way to do that is by optimizing for protein in your diet, we're starting to see all this research now come out about the value of dietary protein, minimizing your consumption of ultra -process foods, make sure that you're at a healthy weight.

1:12:51And then finally, this kind of funnels into the lifestyle recommendation, which would be if you We want to develop dementia as soon as possible, make sure that you are highly sedentary and that you never exercise. The brain thrives at top of body that's moving and that's exercising. And there's tons of evidence now on this, both as a preventative strategy and also as a way to slow down the progression of neurodegeneration. So make sure that you're resistance training and I mean, I can't underscore that enough. resistance training is super, super important. We're seeing a correlation now. Andy Galpin is one of these guys who's become fairly prominent in our space.

1:13:30Just published a paper looking at whole body strength and cognitive function. And there's just one of many papers that has come out showing us the link between robustness, strength, and it's not even necessarily muscle mass. So it's like not, we don't all have to look like sea bum after all or you to procure better brains. It's just about being strong in body and resistance training is the best way to do that and optimizing for protein again. And so yeah, I mean right there. Okay, so if that's the demon's prescription of what you would do if you wanted to onset it, when it comes to strategies and tactics that people can lean on, a food type, any supplementation, any other sort of lifestyle interventions, what is there on the sort of positive side?

1:14:17Yeah. So it's very, the diet dementia recommendations are... All the evidence is... I don't want to say weak, but we have the best sort of idea for what a brain healthful diet might look like is referred to as the mind diet, which is this sort of diet that's been cobbled together by an epidemiologist of observational research that combines the some of the attributes of the Mediterranean diet with some of the attributes of the dash diet, which is the dietary approach, to stop hypertension because again, hypertension is one of these important modifiable risk factors. Hypertension is high blood pressure.

1:15:06So it's a Mediterranean diet combined with the dash diet, with a sprinkling of foods that we've found specifically play a brain beneficial role. For example, blueberries, right? The mind diet only recommends, in terms of fruit, the only fruit that the mind diet recommends makes a recommendation for our blueberries, right? Pretty dialed as a fruit. I know that we won't know, but it's blueberries are blueberries, pineapples, bananas, triple A rated fruits for me. No, blueberries are great. But I think that's where the limitations of that kind of like dietary recommendation comes in because avocados are a fruit.

1:15:47And if I had to if I had to pick a fruit that I thought was potentially most beneficial to the brain, I think avocados are actually probably the most beneficial fruit to the brain because they have the highest proportion of fat protecting specifically fat protecting antioxidants of any fruit or vegetable, which is of particular relevance to the brain because the brain is made of fat and not just any type of fat, but the brain is comprised primarily of polyunsaturated fatty acids, which are especially damaged prone. They're the most chemically unstable of fatty acids. You have your polyunsaturated fatty acids, your monoinsaturated fatty acids, and your saturated fatty acids.

1:16:22Saturated fatty acids being the most chemically stable, but your brain is comprised primarily of polyunsaturated fats, DHA fat, decosa hexaenomic acid, and arachidonic acid. We need to protect these fats, right? The brain is a crucible for oxidative stress because it's metabolizing 25 % of every breath you take in a container the size of a grapefruit. It makes up 2 to 3 % of your body's mass, yet it counts for 25 % of your body's oxygen metabolism. Again, crucible for oxidative stress, what can help protect the brain under those circumstances antioxidants? Fat protecting antioxidants is really important.

1:16:59I think avocados are again one of the best brain foods that you can consume. They're also rich in compounds like lutein and zizanthin, which we know are really supportive of cognitive function, wonderful source of potassium, which we know is really important for cardiovascular health. So, you know, the mind diet is a great starting place, but there was just a randomized control trial that put the mind diet compared the mind diet in an at risk population, I believe, and found no benefit over just a calorie deficit in an older adult population. So, So, you see what I'm saying? So nutrition science is incredibly weak, and that's where you can't be prone to scientism, which is like this adherence to scientific data as if it is religious doctrine.

1:17:45That's just not how it works, right? Like nutrition science is harder to study than drugs, and yet it's much less well -funded. So a whole foods diet is my prescription. It's a diet that incorporates both animal products. I think grass -fed, grass -finished red meat is a brain health superfood, along with avocados and dark leafy greens and shellfish, I think are incredible. Like gooms, I think are incredible, but yeah, I think I'm never 100%. And avoiding the ultra -process foods as best you can, foods with refined grains, foods with added sugar, foods with refined bleach and deodorized seed oils, I think that's the way to go.

1:18:24I noticed that at no point in this preventable neurodegeneration conversation, have you mentioned doing Sudoku or brain training or a crossword puzzles or anything like that? Is this just so low down on the sprinkling on the cake and everything else is the foundation? Is there something in the brain training? No, that's a good question. I think keeping active and staying socially engaged and doing things that require that draw on a complex array of cognitive processes, I think that's very helpful. And there is evidence that that can help build what's called the cognitive reserve, which is super important.

1:19:03So the cognitive reserve basically stipulates that the more you have to lose, the better off you're going to be. It's a form of cognitive resilience that you're building. Sudoku, things that are like really kind of more like on the simplistic side, like crossword puzzles and so go. Speak for yourself when I can't do so. Same, yeah, I mean, I don't remember the last time I've even attempted, but it's essentially like, they're better than nothing, right? Better than nothing, but they're too simplistic to really have what's sometimes referred to as a spillover effect where they can actually improve other cognitive domains.

1:19:38Whereas engaging more in real life is actually the best way to build that cognitive reserve. of engaging in real life, learning a new instrument, perhaps learning a language, learning a new skill, those are all super important because they're more complex than just sitting down and you know, playing a numbers game. Yeah, I had Roy Baumeister and Robin Dunbar on the show within the last year. And Dunbar was talking about how the most computationally difficult thing that humans have to do is tracking the social intricacies of all of their friend groups, right? I know Max and I know John and I know that Max and John used to be friends, but they're not anymore on the reason because of that is because of Fred and Fred is friends with Dan, but Dan and Max, they don't get on because of this thing from before.

1:20:27His argument is that although we look at the brain and we use the brain largely for this beautiful cerebral, consider the nature of the universe man, am I really enacting my logos forward? All of that stuff. But what it was therefore was to track between 15, 150, intersecting hierarchy -based relationships. And from a computational perspective, I think again, that's one of the reasons why relationships are... It's like the terminate walk, right? It's not just the walk, it's not just the insulin, it's outside being... Single biggest determinant of how long you're going to live is the quality of your relationships.

1:21:07It's more than smoking, it's more than diet, it, it's more than your weight, you know? And if you can manage to use, hopefully not a drama -ridden set of friendships, but if you can use all of the different friendships that you have as a push, as a, that is part of your cognitive horsepower backup, I think that that's a really good way to do it. 100 % yeah, loneliness is a toxin on par with alcohol alcoholism these days is what this what we're starting to see And that I think you referenced a Harvard the Harvard study is like the longest running study on human happiness 80 years long It's you know, yeah, there you go.

1:21:50Yeah, I think it's crucially important This is something that I struggle with I live in Los Angeles Which is a city that can at times feel very alienating and isolating but I'm very grateful that I have a Come to Austin, baby. Yeah, I know. I'm thinking about it. But I do have a friend, a great friend group, which you're obviously of course a part of, but I also have like my family close and I feel super lucky and my heart goes out to people who don't have that. But yeah, loneliness is and loneliness is not being alone. That's I think it's important to make that decision. It's good to make friends with your mind to the point that you can actually be comfortably alone.

1:22:23But But if you're not happy about it, you know, if you feel like your social life is lacking, it's definitely somewhere. The story that you tell yourself again, right? There you go. Like we said about the food, it's not just the food that you eat, it's not just the relationships you have, it's the story that you tell yourself. What does it mean that this is the case? What do you think that your mum would think about what you've done to your life now, about your work, about the way that you're influencing people about this film? What do you think she would think about it? Oh, man. And well, my mom was my biggest fan.

1:22:54And mine is too. She'll be listening. I love it. I love it. I mean, yeah, moms are the best. And I'm very lucky that I had a great mom. And a very kind mom and a mom who raised me with like, I think the best values that you could raise a child with. And I think that's why the people that follow me follow me because they know that honesty integrity is super important to me. And those are 100 % values that I got from my mom. You know, like growing up in my household to be called a liar was like the worst thing, the worst thing. And so yeah, she like, she was an incredible, incredible mom. Not perfect.

1:23:32No mom is. No person is, but but yeah, she was, she was wonderful and she supported me from day one. She was, you know, I mean, I come from a very small Jewish family and my parents grew up very poor and they made it for themselves, they teamed up and they created a business and it led to a really great childhood for me and my brothers. But she never pushed me into any one career direction like she wasn't like. I definitely expressed interest early on in wanting to go the medical school route to be a doctor. But when I pivoted out of that, she didn't give me any crap for it, which I'm super grateful for.

1:24:07She just allowed me to pursue my passions. So yeah, I think that she would be and she was. She saw my first book come out. She was very, very proud of me. It's funny, you can never be a prophet in your own land. It was a term of her recently. Well, I would try to tell my mom, as I was learning, I was trying to come to my mom with all these new learnings and insights. She adopted a lot of them. She started exercising more, which I think was helpful. I got rid of some of the more processed things in her kitchen cupboards. but she would never listen to me ironically when it was like me just kind of talking to her from across the kid, the dining room table.

1:24:54It was only when I got to go on shows like the Dr. Oz show, you know? That she would then start to actually pay attention to what it was. My son has Dr. Oz, it's Steel of approval. I don't know, listen to him now. Yeah, there you go. You're like messaging Dr. Oz being like, yo, I've just found something new out and I know that my mom won't listen to me. Would you mind if I come back on because I need to tell her through the television? Is the only way that this works? Yeah. Or even when it, like, even if it's something that like I had been telling her for months, somebody else would say it on the dog garage.

1:25:26It's like, Max, I heard this guy talking about the benefits of kombucha. Mom, that was me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's really interesting to me to see this, this arc for you. You know, somebody that's now stepping in, that's giving people evidence -based, very, apart from the child abuse thing, which I actually think is accurate, but largely un -volatile, it's not tribal, it's just like, here's some evidence to do with it as you wish. I know it seems like alchemy, right? You take a situation that wasn't very good, and then you turn it into something which is like, I know it's like the progeny of this situation, you know, the epitaph that's been written is the nudging that you have done and think about how many centuries millennia of human life has been added because of the information that you and the millions of people that have listened to your podcast have learned about.

1:26:29Like that's like fucking insane. That's crazy. What a great tribute to give to someone. No, it is insane. I know that I have a responsibility that I don't take lightly. I continually remind my audience that I'm not perfect. I don't claim to have all of the answers, but I do the best that I can. My life circumstance has, whether you want to call them innate, or whatever, my skill set, and my passion and the circumstance that I endured with my mom has led to, you know, I guess a certain knowledge base. And I feel like you have to do in life the things that you can't not do. And as somebody who's really empathetic and compassionate at the end of the day, what I was learning as I was going through this with my mom, I couldn't keep to myself.

1:27:22I had to share. And I realized, of course, along the way that I had an aptitude for what I was doing, I realized that I enjoyed it and it started to build a following and look I know that there are some people out there that no matter what I say will never listen to me You know because I'm I don't have credentials after my name and I'm fine with that I'm not here for you, you know I'm here for the people who you know have have seen my work who can fuel my integrity and Those are the people that I try to reach you know and like You can't please everybody in life right like you're not pizza

1:27:56So yeah, so again, I try to do the best that I can and I'm always learning and I'm always challenging my biases and my assumptions and I try to align myself with people that I think are, you know, who are in the space who are also doing it from a place of benevolence. There are experts in the space who I believe are not doing, who are not operating from a place of benevolence, you know. But I am, I love what I do and I aspire to lead my audience ultimately to a greater vision of life and just super grateful that honestly anybody is paying attention. Oh yeah, Max Lou Gavir, ladies and gentlemen, why should people get, when's the film out?

1:28:31What date? So we're looking for a knock on wood. We're looking for a Q1 or Q2 2024 release. So at some point in 2024, we're hoping for a global theatrical release. That's as much as I can say at this juncture. But people can check out little empty boxes .com. We have a trailer and people can join the newsletter there. I don't send out regular updates, but anything specifically related to the film, people can sign up for local screenings and what have you to learn how to become an advocate for the film. They can sign up for that little empty boxes .com. And then I have my own podcast, which hoping to get you on soon enough.

1:29:11We're going to do it. I'm going to do it. It's called the Genius Life on all podcast to ask to apps and then I'm super active on Instagram and Twitter and all the places. Hell yeah, Max, I appreciate you. Thank you, man. Thanks, Chris.