#715 - Louise Perry - Are Women Actually Happy With Modern Dating?

29:19But the mainstream culture absolutely isn't doing that. And the very likely consequence of that is that I mean like I can't remember the numbers exactly but South Korea you'll know has the lowest fatiliterate in the world. For every 100 South Koreans there will be four great -grandchildren. Right. Like there's never been a plague that has knocked out that many people. The 96 % extinction rate over the next 100 years. Incredible. Of Koreans remembering that we shut down the entire world for something that kills 1 % to 2 % of people. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Is the most incredible evolution you bottleneck that we're going through.

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31:06It's not a classic version of it. But it's a population risk that's very unique in that there's no smoke in the sky, there's no asteroid heading toward Earth, there's no lead measure if you're looking until it's way too late. You don't feel it getting warmer, you don't even feel it getting quieter because we've got an aging population whilst reducing birthright, which means that you can have more people on the planet while fewer are being made. So you can almost predict out that. So it feels really counterintuitive, yeah? Yeah, it was a demography as destiny. Yeah. Right? Yeah, I definitely think that a big chunk of it is this prioritization of the here and now of pleasure of meaning.

31:52Did you see the girl with the list on TikTok? No. This needs to be, for the Perry Pilled Out that this needs to be a part of it. This girl wrote 350 .8 page long list and printed them out on TikTok of all of the reasons why she didn't want to have kids. And these ranged from things like literally a parasite living inside of my body to can't recute heels anymore to enable to do brunch with the girls. And then she printed off like one page list of reasons to have kids. And now like hashtag girl with the list on TikTok's got millions and billions of plays. It's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I guess she's kind of right.

32:34But the problem is that the thing you have to have on that, that reasons to you have kids is like,

32:43like inexpressible joy. Which to me, the experience of my life. Yeah, which to me does cancel out, like brunch with the girls. Or so you can bring your baby to brunch with the girls. When it comes to heels, look at the shoes that you've got on today. Indeed, I never wore heels anyway. I've rated sparkly things. So, you know, one of the promises I had, Mary Eberstadt on the show a couple of weeks ago, who's just phenomenal. I feel like she's your spirit animal. And she was talking to me about very similar sorts of things that the promises that women were given previously, you know, the freedom, deliberation.

33:20And ultimately, do you think that most women on average are more happy with modern sexual culture than they were previously, let's say 60 or 70 years ago? I think no, but the outliers are quite striking. So there are some... The thing is that having the kind of, let's say like mildly patriarchal kind of structure where the assumption is that the men do participate most in public life and do the bulk of, well, I mean, it depends on what area you're talking about materially, right? So in subsistence cultures, women do actually do loads of economic work. They just do economic work that is compatible with also looking after little children.

34:12So like the man goes out in the field and collects raw materials and the woman processes the raw materials at home while mincing the toddlers and like sharing the burden of a child care with her sisters and cousins or whatever. The more recent model of the breadwinner with the man goes out and earns all the money and the woman says at home and does all of the housework is kind of a stroke and unusual. It's not that bad. Like actually it's fine if and only if your husband isn't the tyrant. But if your husband is a tyrant it's completely disastrous. So it's like for most people it's fine, for most women it's fine and probably is actually better than like the current, the status quo where women have to still do disproportionate amounts of childcare and housework and do all of the you know all the pregnancy obviously all the breastfeeding obviously.

35:02Pasts going out to work right this is what women are called second shift that you ended up doing two jobs that's I think worse actually. What was it that you didn't you say you'd worked it out that you were doing a full -time job breastfeeding. Yeah you're doing 40 hours a week of breastfeeding. Yeah, yeah. That's the third shift. Yeah, exactly like crazy levels of crazy levels of work that you have to do, which is obviously, you know, joyful, meaningful, etc. But it like there are only so many hours in the day. You like unique, it isn't feasible unless you have loads of money available to you or whatever, it isn't feasible to not have a husband, father, who goes out and does all of that and still be as good a mother as you want to be.

35:51It's so interesting in paradoxes. Mary taught me about a ton of them. You have the pill, gets introduced, increase in single motherhood, increase in abortions, like paradox, interesting. Another one that I found from Candice Blake who's over in Australia is that gender inequality in the pay gap between men and women positively predicts both male and female satisfaction in relationships. Yeah. That the more unequal the earning opportunities are for men and women, skewed in the direction of men, not women, the happier both men and women are in their outcomes in relationships. And stare hand dades is a very strong predictor divorce.

36:35Yeah, if the woman is the primary breadwinner, men are 50 % more likely to use a reptile dysfunction medication. You know, increases in domestic violence. The women are more likely to be on the receiving end of domestic violence if they're the primary breadwinner, because the male partner switches from a benefit affording to a cost -inflicting, make -retention strategy. If you begin to feel a disparity in make -value, you have two choices, right? You can either start to raise yourself up or try to drag the other person down and making them fearful of you was a pretty good way to drag them down.

37:16But that's kind of dark. That being said, the patriarchy is so powerful that we've somehow convinced women that they both need to earn the money and that we can stay at home while they bear the burden of children. So maybe this is just a siaop from all of us to not have to do anything except for Xbox now. What we've discovered, all right, so I don't really believe in, okay, patriarchy clearly has like a strict anthropological meaning in that societies where only men are allowed to be in positions of power and authority, have traditionally been described as patriarchal biontopologists. We don't live in one of those anymore, we haven't lived in one of those for a half a century now in the, I mean in this country we've had like three female prime ministers and so forth right.

38:05But I think that there's also a different way in which people use the word patriarchal, which still to some extent applies to contemporary culture, which is that there's this quite deep -seated feeling shared by both men and women, and I think cross -culturally, that masculine things are higher status than feminine things. And that's why you see this great eagerness actually of women now that they can to participate in masculine coded things to be... What like? Well, professional work, right? that there's been this rush of women into public life, inter -gitrogenic masculine roles, there has not been a rush of men, inter -gitrogenal feminine roles, not at all.

38:53Because there's no status associated with them. Because there's no status associated with them. And I think often that's what feminists are describing when they talk about things in patriarchal, like they recognize the fact that there's that kind of status gap. Remember who's describing that? At least 50 % of society is describing that like on their own behalf, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, this is what Richard Reeves' book was so interesting where he talks about heel, right? What was it like health education, maybe like administration or something else? Yeah, feminine jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

39:22More feminine jobs. There are four times more female fighter pilots in the US Air Force by percentage than there are male kindergarten teachers in America. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, because they just hasn't been this rush for men to try and attain feminine status, right? And I think that I don't think that our culture is misogynist. Misogynists exist. There are some of them out there, but that's not typical. I think though that this sort of deep -seated assumption that women are... Are you familiar with the women of wonderful bias? Yes. So this is the cognitive bias where people will tend to actually prefer to sort of show kindness and generosity to women Over men in various scenarios.

40:14So like, you know, you see a stranger drowning You're more likely to jump into the water and save them if they're female than if they're male But both men and women are more positively predisposed to new stories that complement women's outcomes I say that a woman achieved something than say that a man achieved something exactly and vice versa is true too Right, which doesn't fit at all with the idea that we live in like a misogynist culture. I don't think that we hate women. I think though the way that women are sort of regarded all else being equal is as like your mum, like you love your mum.

40:47You don't want to be her necessarily. You don't necessarily respect her. I think that's the common way in which I think that the puzzle basically as to why women a so consistently regarded in a particular way cross culturally as being like loveable but also a bit like lower status is that women are considered to be kind of adjacent to children. So in the same way that we love children but we're not going to let them vote. Right? I think that what the human brain does is it has this like it's like there's men, there's women, there's children. So women are in a kind of intermediary position and very often are basically have kind of childlike legal status.

41:29Which is why I suppose ties into something that I've been saying for a while. Modern women have been taught the true freedom is having sex like their brother and working like their father. That's the pinnacle. Because it's this like clambering up trying to attain that masculine status. Which for some women, particularly women who have a more masculine temperament, you know, like some women are more disagreeable and competitive and not maternal. And those women have done well out of the changes we've seen to the sexual revolution, in that they can basically live, they can basically, you know, live like their brothers now pretty much.

42:05Most women aren't like her though and aren't made happier by trying to be more male. Well, Chelsea Connerboy in the New York Times last year, I wrote that article, maternal instinct is a myth that men created. No, that's not true. Yeah, right. Like, yeah, you can go around sort of pretending that's true. To who do in the face, but I just don't think it's true. It's such a hydroheaded problem that we're talking about because it's the convergence of the denial of sex differences, this sort of tyranny of the minority, a selection for the most outspoken, gregarious amongst a group to focus on the outlines.

42:46It's not even tyranny of the minority as in some underspoken class that's speaking up for themselves But also tyranny of the minority that appears to have outsized achievements like the male CEOs that oh What that that's exactly what we've got going on here that will skew data that people will focus on and use January January of February of this year is the highest percentage number of new female CEOs ever in America it was 34 % of CEOs in America were female, new CEOs. He go like, that's insane. That's so, that I would guess if you to actually pull from a nature predisposition perspective that that's over indexing for it.

43:29Like how many women actually want that life, that job? CEO sounds like a fantastic title, but what's the reality of CEO, right? I'm falling. I would hate that lifestyle. stress. Yeah. You know, it's horses for courses and it gets like this is Peterson fucking two two thousand and eighteen stuff. You know what I mean? Right? Like how many times do we need to bang this drum? Yeah. Evidently more because it's not one other thing I wanted to really dig into. What do you think the fallout of me to has been now approaching Tanya's I often hear from men that they are now more reluctant to go to women in a bar or whatever.

44:13There's this problem of fear of being falsely accused of something. I believe that if some men are experiencing that, I'm sure that what's gone on is that the men who are already sexually aggressive and likely to actually be, you know, me too perpetrators haven't changed their behaviour at all. And the men who started being really careful were probably fines to begin with. If you were a rapper, the recent social media campaign probably, well they've got a hashtag on Twitter, I'd better stop going around raping. Yeah, which is, I mean, there's a, I always, I wrote about in my first book and it applies to this as to loads of things, the problem of normal distribution, where you have some trade which is arranged on a bell curve.

45:02And the problem is that if you apply some intervention, so whatever that is, like a social movement like me to or some policy change or whatever, probably what you want to do is you want to actually target one of the tails, you want to, you're like, oh, so we've got, you know, we've got a bell curve, a section aggression and there's this, this like most aggressive end who are causing their end of harm, what we wanted to is make them stop. But you can't just apply an intervention to that point on the normal distribution. Like it's gonna shift in one way or another and everyone is gonna be affected.

45:32You're smearing the entire group with the same solution. So what you end up with is moving the threshold for being like reluctant to go up to a woman in a bar or whatever slightly, just to mean that like some of the nice guys are not doing it. But it doesn't actually improve, it doesn't affect the rapists and it doesn't improve when it's experienced of it. David Bussey's book, Bad Men, talks about it's one man doing a thousand sexual assaults, not a thousand men doing one sexual assaults. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's repeat offenders over and over and over again. And unfortunately, as well, repeat victims.

46:03There is something about the way that, again, this isn't victim blaming, but it is like something about the way that women hold themselves, where they showed this to, I think, maybe criminals in prison or assaulters or assault, men that had assaulted people and showed them a number of women walking and they asked them to pick which one they would attack if they were going to and they converged on the same women. So, you know, for all that we can say, you know, it's not about wearing the skirt, it shouldn't be about being in the dark alley at the wrong time, all the rest of it, they're correct.

46:38But there is something about particular women that causes predators is to see them as viable prey. Does that excuse it? No, does that, you know, is that them choosing it also know? But like this is just the way that the world appears to be. It's ruthless. Yeah. And it drives me mad that we tell lies to girls all the time about this because we're so desperate not to appear to be victim blaming that will say, oh no, you can, you know, you can behave like a man, you can do whatever you want. Go back to some random guy's house, it'll be fine. and then when it inevitably isn't fine, well, I, oh, well, you know, he shouldn't have, he shouldn't have been such a aggressor.

47:17I was like, yes, obviously, but we don't, you know, I would laugh to just like delete every rapist from the world all at once. I can't do that. Like, if the advice that I'm going to be giving my daughters is going to be unfortunately different from the advice I'll give my sons. What would be the advice that you give them? like for instance, don't go back to a random man's house that you just met. Like, basic. Okay. Like, consider it to be completely commonsensical up until, up until even like the 1980s, you know, this is like recent stuff, but basically unsayable now in feminist circles at least, except everyone quietly says it, you know.

47:58Well, again, it's the stated and revealed preferences. is like, how many parents that will prostilatise about this on CNN and say that we shouldn't be telling women, oh, so you're saying that we should just accept the fact that men are going to do this. It shouldn't be that women should change their actions, men should change their behaviour. Okay, what did you tell your 17 -year -old daughter to do last week and did you say, make sure that you text me when you get home, make sure that you're home before 11, etc. Don't get an unlicensed taxi, whatever, yeah. Yeah, stated in reveal preferences.

48:29And what drives me bananas is that there are some girls who don't actually have parents, or friends or whoever, who are privately telling them the truth. You know, all they get, all they hear is the public misdirection. This is like the luxury beliefs of me too in a way. Yeah. And so I feel as if actually we have a duty, people who are speaking publicly, to tell those girls the truth, on the assumption that they're not going to hear it from anyone else. the cultural surrogate mothers in a way. Yeah. You've got this line between consensual and good, which I think relates to me too as well. What's that?

49:07I think that a lot of what... so I mean, there's a lot of things that came under the me too banner. Some of it was just unambiguously criminal and, you know, Havi Weinstein or whatever, got sent to prison for criminal acts. A lot of what came up though, a lot of the stories that got shared with things that weren't actually strictly criminal, they were just, it was just like bad behaviour. It was behaviour that actually in another era you probably would have been, probably would have been called unjummedly or something like that. But that vocabulary isn't available to a sort of contemporary feminist who's really brought into the sex positive message.

49:44And so they'll tend to just talk about things being consensual or not consensual. And actually the consensual, not consensual bar is like a low one, it's a legal bar. It's not actually a moral bar really. Like there's a lot of, there are a lot of things that a man can do on a first date or whatever, that are legal but are bad, plenty, but we don't really have the vocabulary to describe them, which is why I try and make, you know, like the feminist case for shivori. We shouldn't have got rid of that as a concept. Like when you have this as stark a physical difference and psychological differences between the sexes, you know, 99 % of men can kill 99 % of women with their bare hands and not vice versa.

50:26We have to operate with that recognition. Shivalry in those circumstances is obviously in women's interests. Even if occasionally it will mean being feelings like a patronized, I who cares? I'm so happy to have the door held open for me and my bags carried it is completely fine. If it means that someone's not going to assault me. I mean, this is, I quote you and Mary about this all the time, that it is a straight line from you should hold the door open for a woman to you shouldn't beat your wife. It is one just continuous women are worthy of protection and there is an asymmetry between what men and women can do.

51:04And again, Rob Henderson's coming a couple of days later, the new, it's like luxury beliefs all over again. The women who come from societies where their husbands already knew that beating your wife would be a bad idea or they had the support networks where that wouldn't be accepted were trying to deconstruct a support structure that was needed for the underclass women whose husbands had grown up without a father and who's stepped out had beaten them who just presumed that the way that you were supposed to be in a relationship was to hit your wife. Yeah, I mean, I just like chests and fence, like the wisdom of it, you know, this, this I'm different, you can just to you know, you come across a fence in a field, you don't know what it's there for, the progressive, the reformer, whatever vocabulary he uses says, we don't need this fence that's tear it down.

51:52Whereas the conservative says, no, let's find out what it's for. And then maybe we might tear it down if it turns out that it really isn't necessary. I mean, just the whole last hundred years has been like non -stop or an indication of Chastatin's festival. Yeah. And I honestly think that most of it actually is to do a technology like much as I love to complain about my political enemies. Like actually the main thing that's changed for people has not been the intellectuals of the 1960s. It's been the dissolution of the family has as much to do with the pill as it does with any kind anything any feminist has ever said.

52:37I'm very materialist in the sense. I think the real engine of history is technology. Or as Mary Harrington, our friend likes to say, it's material reality plus memes. Meam first explained later, me and Mary were on board with that. What was it that you told me the last time we spoke? The washing machine has done more to liberate women than any feminist ever did. That was Phyllis Schlafly's observation. Phyllis Schlafly is such an interesting figure because she was a 60s, when was she been born? She was at her height in the 70s and she was one of these really interesting women. Well, she built herself as an American housewife and she was, I think she had five kids, but She also was like a foreign policy expert who'd worked in, not Westminster, Washington, and had like incredible degree, actually, a professional expertise, but she always built herself as like, you know, a lowly housewife, whatever.

53:40And she led the campaign against the equal rights amendment, which was a second way feminist effort to basically enshrine in the US Constitution that men and women are equal and ought to have equal rights. And Schlafly said, in retrospect, not unreasonably, men and women aren't the same. And so actually, if you were to enshrine this in the Constitution, you would frequently end up with having to do things that are actually bad, not in women's interests. So the example she liked to give, because this was during the Vietnam War, was, do you want to see women drafted? Because that's where that ends up.

54:13If you say that men and women are the same, then why wouldn't you draft women? and why wouldn't you be sending pregnant women into combat men and women, you know, men and women are the same. Whatever. And so I quit feminists who used to say, because they were land to war, they say, well, we don't think anyone should be drafted. It was like, okay, okay. But if you're trying to like future proof your constitution, which I think very much the point of the constitution, that does seem to be, and obviously, I mean, I don't completely agree with Shlaffley. One of the things she used to do, which I find so cringe, is whenever she showed up at a public event, she used to thank her husband for allowing her to be there.

54:47I don't do that when I go to public events. So like she was, she was on a different time in that sense. Like, I'm not gonna hold Fila Schlafly up as like a feminist post -ego. But she did, like she had insights at the time on which she has been proven right. And the equal rights member was never passed because of her efforts. What do you think about this lack of approach at the moment? And Alexander, one of my friends, Alex State's like, put a study up recently, 50 % of managed 18 to 24 have never approached a woman in person in their life. And like even higher percentage, 18 to 30 haven't approached a woman in the last year.

55:29Is this downstream from me too? I have a slightly weird take on this, which is that actually the thing you hear about as sort of the Symmet Gen X people talk about of going up to someone in a bar and this been a way of striking relationships. I think that was a very brief period of history, sort of post -sector revolution but pre -internet, where that was considered normal and I'm slightly too young to have ever actually experienced that. The normal way actually that people start relationships in the marriage, right? Like not the fool you've never met this person before, you know, 13 -year -olds, whatever, getting betrayed, like not like that, but the sort of you're introduced by family members, mutual friends, you're known in the community, you go to the same church, whatever it is, and then you're both of your families like consent to the marriage and it works out OK.

56:33But the expectation isn't like, the expectation of marriage up until relatively recently was that you would have an economic relationship, a, you know, and a reproductive relationship, but you weren't best friends. And actually, I don't think, I don't think, the half of the spends on why I used to talk to each other as much as they do now. I think people used to have much more homosocial kind of lives. You'd hang out with other men, you'd hang out with other women, you wouldn't necessarily hang out a lot with the opposite sex, including or spouse. So this idea that like the going up to a person in the bar is like the normal and natural way of starting relationships I don't think is historically accurate.

57:14That's interesting. So the male aversion felt fear of approach anxiety, which every guy listening is aware of, apart from the psychopaths, right? There is a girl that I find attractive that I either know or don't know or partly know or whatever. Yeah. High, how are you nice to meet you is kind of like a miniature war that you have to go to. And the felt sense of palpable fear is just ripping you apart inside. That isn't or the modern version to that isn't some novel new problem. It was a in your opinion here, a bar that kind of never really needed to be gotten over in the first place in some regards because you had seen each other at church for ages or her father owned the farm next to your father's land and you guys had no, like, yeah, people have much more kind of static social lives.

58:10So yeah, just approaching some stranger and ending up getting married to her is not. I had this, I had this conversation with a guy called Mads Larson who is a mating ideology research, our Senditutes, phenomenal. And he talks about this, all of the different arrangements that people went through and the romantic to the confluent, which is what we've moved through most recently, has left us with a really interesting vestige, which is previously it was, they own the farm next door, it was almost like a tactical marriage between the two of you. And then it's no, no, no, no, no, you're supposed to, you guys are supposed to be together forever, You know, there is supposed to be deeper meaning in stance, you're in this.

58:54But then as soon as you have the sexual revolution, you have confluence. So for as long as you can benefit me and I can benefit you, I think even me, a califa, who obviously, Paragon of sexual virtue, said on a recent interview that people think that marriage is some sacred thing. It's not. It's just a piece of paper. And if this person isn't helping you grow, it's time to move on. So they just confluent like ideology day. How can you grow? What's the point of the center? You need to be helping me grow. I'm not sure. Yeah. Helping you prepare for your next porn scene. I don't know. Whatever she means.

59:31So you have this really interesting thing, which is that both the two most recent cultures have kind of got like conceptual inertia inside of our heads that we have this sense and we were kind of told. and maybe some people think that it's true that you're supposed to find a person who fulfills you, who is your confident, your best friend, your sexual paramour, your the co -owner of your children, and the household, and all the rest of the things. And yet, modern culture is this more confluence thing, which is they're supposed to benefit you and help you grow. And these two things kind of bounce off against each other.

1:00:05And then, you know, if we look back, ancestral, what we're predisposed for, it's fucking neither of those two, right? Like you can say what you want about the truthfulness or utility of both of those, it wasn't that. And it seems like serial monogamy is what we're built for, some combination of polygyny and serial monogamy. And all of these, the existing base rate of what we are, plus the two most recent cultures, are just like the Bermuda triangle of mating ideologies inside of our mind. Yeah, there's this bit called the all -enoughing marriage, which is about sort of, yes, this modern perception marriage where exactly this, you put so much expectation on your spouse that they will be, you know, you will be perfectly sexually compatible, perfectly, like, conversationaly compatible, you know, everything is perfect.

1:00:57And obviously for loads of people that isn't going to be true and that's not going to be true for 60 years or whatever that you might be together. And so you end up with this all on nothing thing that like some people have actually fabulous marriages and some people just, they can't possibly take the strain and so they collapse. And the authors compare it to a Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Well, like if you're in a position, if you're in a situation of economics assistance, you basically just see your spouse as like your economic partner with whom you have children, but your expectations are not that high.

1:01:28And then you reach the point where you're so affluent, right, because I'm regulture, where you kind of regard marriage as, yes, as fulfilling all of these esoteric psychological needs, which is just not reasonable. So, I honestly, again, Mary Harrington, endlessly quotable, she has this saying that we should abolish big romance, that the idea of having these incredible romantic expectations of your spouse is just pretty much setting yourself up a file. One woman meme machine. What was your thing? It was you that reminded me of a story that I'd forgotten from my childhood about ladies dropping handkerchiefs.

1:02:12Oh, right. As a way of demonstrating. Yeah. So I had this thing with me and David Buss came up with this solution around women cultivating receptiveness, if they want to improve their dating prospects. Now, in a post -MeToo world, we're worried about women's safety, especially sexually, this is something that is kind of difficult to say. But again, if you want to work within the confines of how reality is and how you want it to be, I think that women cultivating receptiveness accounts for the male approach anxiety problem. That a slightly lingering eye than you think, or like smiling at somebody as opposed to doing the why men love bitches treat him mean, keep him keen kind of approach.

1:02:59Men are going to be so bad at receiving those signals, they don't you think? Have you ever heard that the average man of 130 IQ has lead like emotional social receptivity of a woman with 70 IQ? This is why my husband called me a witch because I can like, I'll be able to like sense there's something off your chest. You are particularly witchy today with the olive as well. I think it's just women. I think we are just witchy. That's why you were burned at the stake. You can just like sense that something I don't know facial expressions, whatever, something, which most men are just oblivious to. Blink it up.

1:03:41We're some exceptions, please. Okay, so yeah, well let's take that as the again the thermodynamics of the situation that men are that EQ is 50 % of what a woman says essentially. If that is the case, leaning in even further to not being receptive is going to make said blinkered man, even less capable of understanding that maybe you're interested. Oh yeah, yeah. Right. So I just think that, again, another confluence of the hideous head of lots of stuff that's going on, the multifactorial problem, women are maybe being a little bit more masculine, working in more masculine environments, thinking they need to be more disagreeable to be more effective at work, concerned about their unsafety, generally skeptical of men that come up to them, strange men that come up to them in a bar, which has led to absolutely less receptivity from women.

1:04:33And it's like, look, if you are complaining like we're all of the good men at, look around a little bit if you can when you're at your CrossFit class or you're doing yoga or you're doing whatever. And if some guy comes up to you and asks some awkward clunky question, but he's kind of cute. Don't just presume that he's asking the question. Use the witch clairvoyance, tap into the astral realm or whatever it is that you do. And think, oh, if you heard of the male over perception and the female under perception bias. Is this with sexual interest? Correct. Yeah. That's in David Buses book that men overestimate the degree of interest that women have to them and women underestimate, which is largely why you have awkward passes by male co -workers and stuff.

1:05:17Well, what do you mean? Like, her eyes, and you saw the way that she looked at me every time we went to the copy machine or whatever. I mean, alcohol exaggerates that. Does it really? Yeah. So men are more likely to falsely perceive sexual interest when they're drunk. Fantastic. Which again, it just makes so much sense of all the, you know, like, were you, you know, that there was like me too, but for schools in the UK a few years ago. No, it was Cool, everyone's invited. It was like a website that some girls set up to describe bad sexual experiences that they'd had with what they... In school?

1:05:54Well, not normally in school, this was the thing. So it ended up being a big headache for teachers and head teachers because parents were obviously really upset, understandably. And they said, you know, you should be teaching consent workshops in school. You should be doing all this things and the teachers are like, this isn't happening in school. Very rarely is this happening in school. This is normally happening Friday night at some house party. The parents aren't there. Everyone's drunk. And it's kind of the parents responsibility, honestly, to step in. Yeah, and it's like, look, you've got horny young men raised on porn plus alcohol.

1:06:30Young women often giving confusing signals. I mean, one of the things that, like teenage girls just don't understand, bless them, is like, if you say dread and revealing clothes because you want to attract a particular man. That the blast radius of that signal. It's dirty bomb. Yeah, I was getting a train recently in London and there was a school girl who was probably like 16, who was walking ahead of me and she was going up the stairs. And she was wearing such a short skirt going to school that I could see absolutely everything. And I almost jogged after her just to say like, you're lucky it was me who was walking behind you.

1:07:07And I know that you're doing this because because you want to feel, there is a kind of thrill of feeling sexy, the young women experience for the first time, and they have no idea how potent and dangerous that tool is. So you do it because there's a particular guy who gets the same trainers you who you want to catch his eye or whatever fine, but I could have been a creepy bloke. And this is why I think parents have to be banning their daughters from leaving the house looking like that, basically, because they have no idea. Like teenage girls are just, I mean, teenagers, you know, teenagers are dumb.

1:07:43The thought of me to conversation around victim blaming and stuff is such a deep hole when you get into it to talk about should things be this way? No. Are things this way? Yes. Do you want to play within the confines of the thermodynamics of this particular system where you probably should, right? And to thread that needle, especially because, I often think about this, Doug, this Mary wants to talk to me that it doesn't really matter who makes the best logical argument in a debate if you manage to get two or three big laughs you win. Oh yes, that's true. And it's almost just, it's just vibe, you're a vibe architect, right?

1:08:23And the problem with this discussion, if you have somebody who is very anti this and is saying that's victim blaming you, absolutely, you're saying that you're giving men a pass, you're saying that women should be fearful of what they should wear and it's like that particular talking point is so empathetically robust in its signaling that it almost always wins. Yeah. Because the most obviously caring argument up front that sounds like the one that sounds right, it sounds like the one that you'll get the most support for on Twitter. It's so tough to pay. It's like, right, yeah, no, I don't disagree, but look at the outcomes that we get from this.

1:09:09One of the things that, who aggressive really have on their side, rhetorically, is that if you're a conservative who's saying, look actually, you know, there was a line that one of my readers sent me from all places as it was a book about making wine. And the line was, traditions or experiments that worked. You can say that when you're talking about wine making, and it's not too politically explosive, but you can obviously apply that to social issues as well. I know it's not a great line. It's experiments that work. Exactly. But what you end up, if you're trying to make that argument, and if you're proposing anything remotely conservative, is that you have to, you end up having to defend other cultures or cultures of the past.

1:09:57So you'll say, look, actually, there was a lot to be said for the slightly arranged marriage. There's a lot to be said for teenage girls being encouraged to dress more modestly, whatever, and people say, oh, what, so you're saying that you support domestic violence? You're saying that you support, you know, cholera and imperialism and like everything that might have happened during the era that you're talking about. And you have to say, no, no, no, no, I don't know what, you just end up at them back foot. Whereas if you're a progressive, you can say, I can see this vision, you know, like in the future we'll have this amazing society where everything's great.

1:10:26And the fact that this has never happened and it's never likely to happen means that you're never in the position of having to defend anything unfortunate. You never have to talk about trade -offs. I think that acknowledging the existence of trade -offs is a fundamentally conservative trait. Yeah. Thomas Sol, there are no solutions, only trade -offs. Yeah, it's really painful, but it's true, unfortunately. You'll have seen a lot of the stats coming out about the happiness or lack of amongst young girls, you know, 60 % of girls aged 12 to 16 have regular, persistent feelings of hopelessness and stuff like that.

1:11:02What's your assessment of the current mental health of young women? I mean, it seems to be really bad. I mean, there's all the obvious stuff about why, you know, young people that don't go outside and off, they don't do enough exercise all that, but that's that's true for boys as well. I think Jonathan Heitz and lots of work on this, that the main thing that's going on for girls is social media, because girls use social media differently for boys. One of the ways that girls use social media is to talk to each other. Girls are so, like you know, that all basically all contagious mental illnesses start among and predominate among teenage girls.

1:11:46Other things like some of the anorexia for instance is like a classic example or like now apparently all these teenage girls have got two reps that they've acquired from TikTok. There was a period where multiple personality disorder and that others were coming out and TikTok too. Precisely and I think it's because it's kind of like that witchy thing we were talking about earlier like women being very very socially sensitive for obvious evolutionary reasons, you know, that women being smaller, not having the kind of physical capacities that men do, the main advantage you have in terms of your own survival and survival of your children is making alliances, particularly among other women, you know, recruiting other women to assist you in your endeavors and whatever requires the social sensitivity.

1:12:33and I think that that can misfire in terms of saving so receptive to whatever getting to rats from TikTok that you do yourself harm, basically I mean it's not terrible harm but like anorexia is terrible harm right that you might acquire sort of memetically and I think also it means that girls I mean one of the things that always think about Instagram is like the image -based social media, which seems to be particularly bad for girls. Twitter is bad for journalists, it sends them completely insane. TikTok and Instagram sends teenage girls insane. I think it's because one of the things that looking at these platforms, one of the things it does to girls, is it gives them a completely false impression of their intersectional competition pool, that normally they would look around at the young women they actually know, who are as like plain and normal as that.

1:13:31Skinny and acne ridden as they are, yeah. And I think, oh, okay, right, yeah, this is like, this is basically my like competition pool for acquiring whichever, like, equally mediocre looking man. Right? Whereas now you look at Instagram and you see the most beautiful women in the world, airbrushed and having a plastic surgery. And you think that's your sexual competition. So I think it just kind of, I think it just plays complete hamburger with their minds. This also explains the social contagion theory for F to M transitions because if the, you've heard of the left -handedness argument for trans people, right, that as soon as you remove the societal imposition and judgment, people can truly be the yourselves.

1:14:20Yeah. Okay, if that's the case, and that very well may contribute, if that was entirely the case, why is it four girls that all sit together at the same lunch table in school? Right. Why is it not evenly smeared across the entire populace? It's not, it clumps together. Right. Right. It's also gone from being, like diagnosis of judges for you. I've gone from being primarily a male thing to being primarily a female thing, like by a big margin, like the huge explosion has been on teenage girls specifically. There was a study in Finland that I found that I put on my newsletter last week that said they could attribute 15 % of the negative mental health outcomes of teenage girls to their use of birth control.

1:15:05And I realized this when I spoke to Dr Sarah Hill last year, as she's talking to me about how young forming brains can have particular types of negative mental health outcomes locked in for life if you're on hormonal birth control during this particular period. And I remember thinking about the coddling of the American mind at the time and going, I 100 % bet that no one's factored in the base rate of the increase of hormonal birth control and the predisposition that it's caused amongst young girls. Yeah, I'm sure that that's true. This sounds random, but that I, if there's this debate you might be familiar with about whether or not it's ethical to use chemical crustration for pedophiles.

1:15:49In some countries they do, so like Germany, I think is an example of a country that will that will offer chemical castration as an alternative to prison time. Oh, it's an alternative? Yes, or maybe you have it when you're on prison. Pretty sure Alan Cheering got something similar like that. Which is one of the reasons why I think it's not popular in the UK, right, because Cheering is a famous example of it being used against gay men. Yeah. But a lot of pedophiles will say that they would prefer that, and that actually they're really tortured by that. I mean, I am generally of the opinion, I think this is scientifically sound, that it is an innate sexual orientation, but it's bound in a small number of men.

1:16:26And a lot of them report being absolutely tortured. By it, it's awful. It's like the most stigmatized, like you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Well, what a horrible curse, right? They would actually choose chemical castration to relieve them of that. And yet there's a general feeling, at least, maybe in the Anglo -Sphere, that there's something really dodgy about using sort of pharmacological punishments. And you can imagine of course using it in other contexts as well, you might sedate, aggressive, you know, whatever. I was a friend about this who works in politics and who's a gay man and I was saying, well, you know, you could use like, you know, that the implants you get in your arm, you could use that to sort of release small doses of this every day.

1:17:10And he said the implants you get in your work. And so, you know, you can get hormonal contraception, either you get in your arm or you get the inter -usurined devices or whatever, which is a creeps more. He had no idea because he's like innocent to these masses. But it occurred to me, like, isn't it crazy that we're so, it seems so outside the Overton window to use pharmacology to like alter the minds of criminal offenders. And we've had teenage girls on these drugs two decades, like we know them to be mind -altering to some extent. Wow. And we put, like, no hesitation about putting an arm in planter like a 15 -year -old girl.

1:17:48Um, when we're basically quite an experimental drug. I mean, the argument against us to say, yeah, but pregnancy is also a pretty like... Pull out comfort for 15 -year -old. That, but also a quite an extreme thing to go through full -stop physically, mentally, et cetera. So if the choice is pregnancy or hormonal birth control, hormonal birth control has fewer side effects. It's, you know, there are no solutions only trade -offs, right? And it's rough, man. I think about some of my friends who've got young girls that are, you know, maybe 12 or 13 and are going to be starting to be around boys that can get them pregnant and are going to become sexually active at some point in future, but also know about the risks of hormonal birth control and don't want to condemn their beautiful daughter to a life of potential, you know, 10 % more anxiety and depression risk, plus the weight gain and all the rest of the stuff.

1:18:45But also really don't want them to get pregnant at 15. And you go, okay, are you, again, playing within the confines of the world as it is, not as we want it to be, but saying, well, make sure that you use protection and make make sure that you don't get too drunk and blood. It's like they're 15 or 16 or 17 or something. You know? Yeah. You said there about the sexual predisposition of the pedophilia being a sexual orientation. Pedophiles got a famous question, which is what do you believe that most people would disagree with? And for a long time, that was mine. That non -offending pedophiles need way more sympathy than we give them.

1:19:29because I've had a bunch of neuroscientists on the show and they've put people in FMR eyes with arousal responses and they can show non -offending pedophiles everything. They can throw every sexual kink under the sun at them, nothing. And then they are able to show them something that tickles her fancy and it's really disturbing, isn't it? it would be so much more like psychologically reassuring, which is why I think most people prefer this explanation to think that it's just some manifestation of evil or something or it's under people's control, because it's awful to think. It's so uncomfortable.

1:20:10Imagine being cursed with that. Yeah, awful. I remember learning about it. I was at uni and I was dating this girl at smart doctor, medical student girl. And she taught me about this and she'd given a presentation on stage basically saying like you know we need to give these people more sympathy because you know it wasn't that long ago that gay men were seen basically as the same now the difference being that gay men could enact or not they couldn't but they were in the right future able to enact it without doing something that was taking advantage of a person that can't consent. But ever since that, I've always had this in the back of my mind as one of those.

1:20:53And yeah, the discomfort, it was the same reason I think that even before the lab leak hypothesis was something that was put forward, people were so prepared to lay COVID origins at the feet of a malign scientist because it was so much more comforting than believing that it was the chance mutation of some silly little microbe because one or normal failure. One at least was just not chaos. Yeah, yeah. And it felt like it was more in your control with the right intervention we could have fixed it. Yeah. It's like, no, you can't. Yeah. I read someone, I forget who now, but I read someone writing about Israel, this is relevant were, the failure of the Gaza borders and the fact that Hamas were able to get through on September 7th, and so many people have assumed that there was some sort of conspiracy at play.

1:21:57It was either some faction within the Israeli government or the Americans or whatever conspiracy So you fancy for deliberately permitting Hamas to do this in order to whatever justify flattening guys or whatever it is. And this writer said, you know, isn't it telling that people will jump to that conclusion rather than the much more likely conclusion, which was normal failure, which is that when you have any kind of complex system, like sometimes... There's a blowup risk. Yeah. And that's actually true of everything, like what a horrible thought, but that's actually our entire civilization is basically resting on these very very delicate complex systems and no one really understands.

1:22:36Matthew Saird wrote in the Times, the bias is called compensatory control. So when things seem like a outside blow of breast has occurred, we want to lay it at a sequence of events that at some point we could have interjected, compensatory control. It's almost like magical thinking isn't it? It's like praying to the gods to send rain or whatever, it's that feeling of have some kind of external agent who controls all of this because it's actually so much worse to think that it's random. You spoke about intracexual competition. I've got a pretty spicy theory about body positivity that I want to teach you about.

1:23:16So this is the rivalry theory of body positivity. The TLDR is female support for body positivity is at least in part fueled deep down by female sexual competition, which pushes other women out of the dating pool by discouraging them from losing weight. I mean, yes, but I also think to some extent it's just hope. It's just trying to... It's just because sexual tractiveness is like, brutally hierarchical. It just is. For men and for women. I mean, for women, it's more physical for men, it's more to status and whatever, but it is just brutally hierarchical. And no one particularly if you have a generally egalitarian outlook if you're on the left.

1:24:01No one wants to face up to that, particularly if you're at the bottom of the hierarchy. And so trying to say, oh no, the hierarchy doesn't exist actually. I'm trying to persuade men to agree with you. It's one way. Good luck with that. Well, exactly. But it is one thing that you can do. You probably can't persuade men to think differently, but you can, I don't know, get into like Lululemon ads. But no one's ever been gilted into an erection. I don't think. It doesn't work. Well, you can try harder. But this whole, I mean, there's also a deep principle that there isn't that the human nature is kind of a moveable.

1:24:34Not completely. Like, we do have a little bit of control over ourselves. And there are cultural structures that will incentivize some things, and not others, and whatever. There is room for maneuver, but we basically have some fairly tight controls around us all times. Well, it's what I've got in my head is kind of human nature is easier to constrain than it is to enable in that regard. Like it's already operating at max RPM and you can bring that down with social norms and judgment and stuff. But going the whole argument of a M to F transition if you as a straight man and are attracted to that person regardless of how they present.

1:25:20You are that's homophobia, transphobia or whatever. Actually, don't know which of those two it is.

1:25:30It just doesn't play within the confines of reality. Yeah. Right. And actually, that's one of the things that I think is so cruel about so much of the sort of discourse around trans. Like there's this line, actually, there's this great, there's right, Andrew Longchue. who is trans and who disagrees with me on absolutely everything but I would say is a great writer. I really really good pros and she has this line, when you are trans you become permanently dependent on the kindness of strangers. In the sense that basically no one passes, it's really hard to pass convincingly particularly transition as an adult.

1:26:08It'll always be kind of physically obvious that you're not actually a native female. What you depend on is people playing along. Every single time, every social interaction for the rest of your life, so as not to feel dysphoria. And sometimes people won't do that little children aren't going to do that. Well, like some elderly person with Alzheimer's isn't going to do that. People aren't always going to cotton on that they're supposed to play along. And so it means you have this incredibly fragile. Yeah, it's a social mind field. It's terrible. Yeah. And what you're basically, and that's what's being inflicted on people when they're encouraged to go through irreversible surgeries, living their entire life dependent on the kind of some strangers for like to avoid complete psychological dissolution.

1:26:54Douglas Murray's got this quote that he throws around saying, you know when you've reached true equality because you have to put up with the same level of shit that everybody else does. That's true, yes. And the lack of special dispensation is the exact opposite. And I think it's all about dispositions, but I think if it was me and I was being coddled, I would feel incredibly patronized. And this is how I think, you know, to even put, regardless of whether the L's, the G's, the B's, the T's, as groups want to be together. It's not like T is just a group or G is just a group, right? Within that you have a number of different factions of people.

1:27:41And yeah, I don't think that that wouldn't be how I would want to be treated. What was your, what's your theory on the normalization of cosmetic surgery? I think that unlike other industries, which are more obviously supplied to Mandelde whenever, I think that there is a completely bottomless desire for women in particular for beauty enhancing treatment and they will basically spend as much money as they can, right, on average, and that the thing that really drives the beauty industry is technological innovation. So like as soon as something new comes on the market and it's typically very expensive and then only celebrities and the trickles down whatever.

1:28:25Like I didn't know this for instance, it wasn't that long ago that actually dying your hair was considered to be quite unusual for women who are going grey. That was considered to be kind of in the realms of like quite it. Not extreme but like quite a, you know expensive time because you're in whatever. Like it was at the edges of what was considered normal for women say in their 50s or 60s. Now everyone dies there. Basically, now going grey is a weird statement. And we've had this like ratcheting up of the things that you have to do in order to be considered well groomed. And the sky is the limit.

1:29:01And so it's just different by what's available. So now it's not just wearing makeup. It's also fillers, it's also Botox, it's also weird, wonderful facials, or whatever, all the things that you can do, having your nails done as a completely standard thing, is really expensive to have perfectly manicured nails all the time. Women who don't have much money will send so much money on this. It's amazing. And what a wonderful time to invest in the beauty industry. Because honestly, the tech that they do is actually incredible. What do you mean? What like? Like, okay, nails, one example. Men won't know this.

1:29:46The bottles of nail varnish that you can get in the pharmacy for like a few pounds, they'll the manicure look really bad and it will last you a few days. So presumably back in the 50s when we used to do that but no one does that now. Maybe ten years ago it started to become possible to get manicures that would last for ten days. But they're quite bad for your nails because they have to like, soar away at it basically when they remove it, but yeah, it's not really nice. And it doesn't feel very nice. So you don't necessarily want to do that. Now you can get nail varnish, which lasts you a month.

1:30:20And it's more expansive and yada yada. But like the technological breakthroughs, Peter Fields, always talking about like technological stagnation, right? Like, we haven't improved on the jet engine and whatever. we have improved so much on beauty tech in that period. It's amazing. And I think it's just because there's a bottomless market for it. People don't actually care about flying across the Atlantic slightly more quickly. That's why I call it. They won nail banish that lasts for another two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. And still is more natural and never to get wrinkles and yada, yada, yada like. Right.

1:30:52So it's a race. It's not only a race to the bottom, which women have an endless desire for how...

1:31:02much enhancement they will go for. The minimum bar, like the overton window, the minimum base rate of that has also been raised up. And it's because of intersexual competition. It's because now if you only did the beauty routine of 40 years ago, you would look relatively bad compared to the other women in your peer group. This is precisely the same, but not disincentivized. Instead, it's just an unspoken about cartel across the board as why women slutsche more than men. It's a price enforcement mechanism, but instead of it being price enforcement, it's just competition. But that is related to the female rivalry theory of body positivity.

1:31:44If you can somehow manage to get a few competitors to eat their way out of your horizontal competition. traditionally. There's this bill, but he's live at Red Rocks, some theatre and he says, if you ladies could only support the WNBA, like you support a fat chick that keeps on gaining weight and is no longer a threat to you, they'd be doing more numbers than the NBA. It is amazing. Whenever you go on, women post selfies for other women, because you look at the comments underneath any woman who's posted a selfie ever and it will always be like, like baby look amazing, baby look amazing. And the expectation I think is that then when those women post selfies, they get the same thing back.

1:32:29And it's all very kind of, you know, like, it's funny. This is the nature of sort of human instinct, right? You'll do things with having no idea why you're doing them. And then sometimes you'll look back and be like, OK, like you read David Bustle something. I'm sure you've had this experience. And you're like, oh, yeah, I've done that. Very, very, very happy to be done. And you'll keep doing it anyway. Well, think about why women by luxury goods. Like, why is it that women are so concerned about having a YSL purse? It's for the girls and the guys. Or a mulberry handbag. So there was a really interesting study that I looked at that showed the gift that highly intracexually competitive women with wealthy spouses wanted the most was a gift card to an expensive department store.

1:33:18So they could choose themselves. Precisely correct, because they want to use the signal of my mate is so invested. Oh, you want to go after my mate? Yes, yes, yes. He spent five grand on this tiny piece of leather that I carry my phone in. He spent ten grand on this wedding ring or whatever, right? It's an intersectional competitive threat display of mate investment, even when the mate's not around. Yeah, yeah, and because men are completely insensitive to They talk about the brand. You think we know the difference between a fucking mulberry handbag and something from like Primark I don't think men know just things like manicures either.

1:33:57I think a lot of the beauty stuff like some of it Yes is oriented towards looking younger You know, that's like that's always gonna be such a attractive But I think a lot of the looking really well groomed is about signaling to two girls and gays because they're the ones who are actually receiving the signals Did you see my I post that study that was floating around last week to do with that hairdressing experiment that had been done. This is phenomenal. So this is where I originally justified using science, my rivalry theory of female body positivity support. A recent study published in personality and individual differences found that women who are high in intracexual competitiveness are more likely to advise women who they perceive as potential mating threats to cut off more hair in an attempt to sabotage their attractiveness.

1:34:45The researchers studied 450 women who were presented with hypothetical salon clients. Participants were asked to recommend the amount of hair to be cut off for each woman. Women who reported high levels of intracetial competitiveness were more likely to recommend that clients have more hair cut off when the hair was in good condition and the client's express to preference for minimal cutting. Another finding is that women advise clients of similar attractiveness as themselves to cut off the most hair participants effectively targeted women they perceived as being on the same attractiveness level potentially to try and reduce their attractiveness.

1:35:18Longer hair is acute to youth and health. Yeah, men love long hair. I don't think women realize how much men love long hair. Like if you read the men are actually incredibly easy to please, right? In terms of like physical cues. But the problem is that there are two parallel status games going on when it comes to female beauty and appearance. One is attracting men, which is basically just looking youthful, like fine and fertile. And then the other is the much more difficult game, which is the intersectional competition game, which is about making yourself look high status in other ways. And that's where the brands come in, that's where, you know, like keeping up with fashion comes in.

1:35:58Mendecare about that. But you have those two things going on parallel and occasionally they'll come into tension, occasionally there'll be some trend. There are no solutions on the trader. Which makes you fashionable, but the men don't like? Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, short hair would be an example of that, but it's quite a rare for that to be really popular. But as you know, like, baggy clothes as well. Yeah, I was going to say like both rangerines and stuff. Exactly, men aren't going to be interested in that, but that might occasionally come around. Guys would be happy with girls just permanently wearing leggings, like hot leggings, like gym shark leggings or something, just go out in those.

1:36:33with heels. Yeah, like it's very basic. But then again, but then I mean also part of what's driving fashion is the fact that gay men are so overwhelmed over a percentage of fashion. And they don't have absolutely no interest. No, so that's why you have like really skinny women on catwalks and stuff. Like it's partly because the clothes kind of hang it's easier if everyone's a small sample size to deal with the clothes like fitting everyone. But I think it's also because the more and Roger's luck is just considered to be more beautiful by gay men. You see that Victoria's secrets have made the radical decision to go back to using hot models.

1:37:09They tried 300 pound mannequins, they tried a trans person, they tried a man, they tried the captain of the US socket team, and radically now they're just going to use heart checks. You know, you know, the Jim Brown -Lewy lemon, like expensive Jim, where I can't tell you how much an eleman I own, it's disgusting anyway. They used to have a rule that they didn't even stock sizes over like a UK size 12 or UK 14 like the average woman is a 16. That's a smarter version of what Abercrombie infetched it where they wouldn't give away their clothes to homeless people, they just burned them. Yeah. They don't even give them away to unacceptable customers, let alone.

1:37:48Yeah, no, I really think that Lululemon, and actually the guy who found it would say is quite so forwardly like, I don't want a fat shucks or an Mcloff's basically. They knew that having being associated with skinny women was aspirational. But then they changed that in like 2020 -ish. Couldn't survive, couldn't survive. And now they have, now they have loads of plus size models and stuff. It's a fashion though, it won't last. Louise Perry, ladies and gentlemen, Louise, I love you. I really, really enjoy bringing you on. Your podcast, great, your writings, great. Where should people go? If anyone wants to see the stuff that you're doing.

1:38:21So my podcast is called Made in Mother Nature Arc. It's on YouTube, Substruct, all the places you get your podcasts. My first book was The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, which came out last year. I'm working on another one as well, which is going to be out in about 80 months, which is on motherhood, fertility, birth rates, all of this stuff. And I just write, I work too much, I write for too many places, like countless places. I'm on Twitter. Everyone should go and read The Case Against the Sexual Revolution. It's phenomenal and I'm excited to see what you do with the next one. Thank you for today.