#756 - Destiny - Have We Reached Peak Stupidity?

22:22Yes. Yeah, it aligns with a lot of the stuff I've seen him do. Somebody will say something like, Trump is winning the next election 99%. And I'll be like, oh, okay, do you want to bet? I'll take $1 ,000 and if I'm right, you pay me $100 ,000, okay? Because you're that confident. And instead of telling me to fuck off or instead of saying, whatever, what they actually do is they start to speak and All of a sudden I realized they have all the information of the brand. They're like well hold on He could get sick and die. He could have some synolytically issues. He is old Maybe for some of the end diamonds.

22:55He might have done stuff other stuff could come out May like it's it's not even that they are afraid of the bet or they're just like immediately telling me to fuck off they actually do have the information there. They're capable of exercising the critical thought process. They just don't most of the time because of the social pressures for our belief systems. That was the really, and I stopped doing it. I was like, this is insane. Wait, so you know all this. You know all of the reasons why what you said before was dumb. It just took somebody to put a quantitative value on your conviction for you to appropriately scale back your belief.

23:25That was crazy. And why was that so depressing to you? Because I was just talking they were dumb. Not that they actually had all the information, but they were choosing not to apply it. I remember when I did a Glenn Greenwald recently, who's a hack who the only reason you've ever heard us name before is because he happened to be the journalist that Edward Snowden wanted to dump the Snowden papers. Okay, and we were debating, and he was bringing up, it was over the January 6th Trump stuff, and he was bringing up, I studied his videos, I studied the arguments, I've read the papers, I know all the bullshit arguments, and he brings up like, oh, well, there was an electric scheme in Hawaii, and now they're doing another one, and it's the same thing.

23:57And I'm like, hold on, the electric scheme in Hawaii, the state legislature approved both those slits of electricity. I won't go into the details, but I didn't actually say that. I was like, well hold on, wait, the Hawaii thing, what do you mean by bringing up the Hawaii thing? And then he actually went into detail about the Hawaii thing. I was like, wait, so you knew what was going on here, but you still brought it up as a comparison? Because once you bring up all the facts, it's completely different from the Trump thing. So yeah, my view on people is like an internet debater, try to change people's minds things.

24:25I've shifted a lot over the years where I first say that like people are kind of dumb and they fall into a lot of these bad thought processes and thought patterns and cognitive biases and blah blah blah. And we do have those, but people are actually a lot smarter than I think people realize. And if you treat a person as smart, and you're presented with the right information, and you try to break them out of like an echo chamber or this epistemic circularity that they get caught in, I think people can surprise you. There just has to be that push to do it and a recognition that like, you're not misunderstood as because you're stupid, so because there's an immense amount of social pressure that's like boxing you into this thought problem.

24:55In other news, this episode is brought to you by element. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. It's a healthy alternative to sugary electrolyte drinks and it will improve your hydration. You don't need to have caffeine first thing in the morning because you're a dendracean system that caffeine acts on isn't even active for the first 90 minutes of the day, but your adrenal system is and salt acts on your adrenal system. Element contains a signed -backed electrolyte ratio of sodium potassium and magnesium that helps to curb cravings, regulate your appetite, and improve your brain function.

25:28Best of all, there is a no BS, no questions asked, refund policy, so you can buy it 100 % risk -free, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back, and you don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you love it. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors of your first box by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt .com slash modern wisdom. That's drinklmnt .com slash. Modern wisdom. I had this idea called the soft signal of effectiveness that there is a trend on the internet for people to be, you know, the most vehement, like flames, sword, wielding, motherfucker, like I'm gonna come, and I'm gonna tell you down, I'm gonna make you look stupid, it's gonna be filled with sardonic comments and all the rest of it.

26:14But I think that that activates, whoever you're speaking to is defense system. That's the antibodies just come up. I don't want to be made to look like a complete idiot, so I'm just going to stand my ground. And I think that, sure, there's times where ridicule is a useful tool. And you can use that to kind of, oh my God, like that discomfort kind of kicks you out of stuff. But for the most part, because people just embed themselves into their beliefs, especially if the fear is, I'm going to look stupid or lose status if I get this wrong, that actually going, okay, well, tell me about that. So just walk me through your thinking and being a little bit more gentle, so soft signal of effectiveness being most of the guys that are the real hardcore vehement piss -taking people.

26:56I don't think that they change behavior particularly well. The question is, what is it that you're trying to achieve with this communication that you're having? Are you actually trying to get a good outcome of bringing people closer to something appropriating truth? Are you trying to look cool and dunk on the other person during this discussion? Yeah, and then you have to be mindful of so much about like they're changing their mind too. This is something that I kind of bring up, but it feels kind of bad to do this. But like if I'm debating somebody who let's say somebody like Ben Shapiro, okay, who I respect as an intelligent person, he's clearly intelligent, he's really good with this company, but Ben Shapiro is a pundit on the daily wire and he's the part owner of the daily wire, which is a conservative news outlet.

27:35His livelihood to some extent depends on him remaining in the good graces of a conservative of the audience. So if two studies were to come out tomorrow, the larger studies of all of mankind prove that socialism and socialized healthcare are the best things to increase the standards of living for everybody, for somebody like me, because I'm not like, I don't have necessarily a political alignment. I can say, oh, I changed my mind. These are like, cool. I follow this now. But if you're a hardcore dog in on the conservative side, it's going to be really hard to change your mind. That's not what people are coming to you for.

28:03It's to just your unique take some things. They want a little bit of the reinforcement of the, I don't want to say the echo chamber there. And a little bit of the reinforcement of the social constellation of ideas they've inherited. And then I'm gonna show you some more left -wing events, examples of all your conservatives are feeling very bullied and you're honest enough. It's anything with on the left that when research and data was coming out that for a while, we got way too hyped up on the trans kids stuff. Personally, I still think that there is a strong argument for people under the age of 18 to have medications made available to them.

28:31And that's a whole other thing you get into. But people got way too gung ho about it and you need to be willing to critically accept research that might not reinforce that position. And a lot of people on the left were totally unwilling to hear or see any data that might say that like, oh, you know, the assistance rates might be like this, or giving medication to these people might not produce the best outcomes, or some of these studies aren't the best that we're using for this particular thing. Yeah, people have a really hard time accepting information, sometimes that is contrary to their belief system.

29:02Well, it's part of the acceptance within the group, and then it's also a, You can think of it kind of like a smooth ball, right? If you've just accepted this world view wholesale, that it's very easy. I don't need to do a ton of sense making myself. I'm gonna be accepted by the group. Any hole that you pick in one of those things, well, what does this say about my opinion on immigration or on gun rights or on abortion or on how we should deal with the Ukraine or on the sense of agency or what we should do with socialized healthcare? All of these things sort of start to crack and crumble underneath the pressure of one of these threads becoming unpicked.

29:34Basically, yeah, and more importantly, because of the way that it works as a constellation and not that they're all uniquely generated, they all are kind of self -reliant on each other. Yes. It can't be the case that, oh god, my, the past six months has been fighting with conservatives over Trump, so that's all my example. I'm so sorry, okay? Listen, progressive type big problems too. But it just can't be the case that the FDA is trustworthy. That can never be the case. Because if that's the case, the whole premise of the FDA being untrustworthy has to do with the concept of the deep state. It has to do with the government being against us.

30:04it has to do with pharmaceuticals being corrupt. It has to be on top. Yeah, it's all, they're all like, it's like a janguit tower, but there's no foundation. They all find a way to keep the blocks in the air like it's going to have. It's like a janguit. Yeah, and you can't pull anything out because wait, that does, because everything would completely totally fall apart. And the problem when you're in a social group is you can't have an incongruency of applied ideas because that implies that you have an incongruency and fundamental values. What do you mean the applied ideas? As in, if I'm with a group of conservatives and I say, I believe in affirmative action and a $15 minimum wage, and the conservatives go, okay, well, you're an idiot.

30:40You want to destroy the economy and your, you know, bigotry of low expectations of the black people. Okay, I don't care. Like, our values are fundamentally different. So our applied positions are obviously going to be different. I'm for, and this isn't my personal position. Like, I'd say, like, oh, well, I'm for a minimum of affirmative action, you're not, but that's of course our applied positions are way different. We have a different set of values. But if I'm next to somebody that is near me, ideologically or or supposedly identical to me ideologically. Well, if we start to if we start to separate on applied positions So maybe I believe that we need to build more housing to help homeless people and somebody else says, but we need to an Act strict rent control to keep rents down if we have a disagreement there that person isn't going to attack me on the applied position He's not going to say, oh, what you want to build more housing rent control is obviously better that person's going to go to the core belief He's gonna say, oh, well, you hate homeless people.

31:30Yes. Now, the core belief attack from somebody close to me hurts a lot more than from the conservative. It's like, wait, hold on, I don't hate homeless people. Right? And I'm sure it's same for you in a manosphere. Well, you're not, I don't, I know you branch up from that, but like if you think of like a manosphere or like a red pill person, if they're on a show with a bunch of feminists, and like, you hate women and you're damaging to men and blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you're a feminist, obviously we disagree. But if it's too red pill is disagreeing with each other, like, I think that your advice is horrible for young men.

31:54You're not advocating for them or whatever. I was like, wait, what the fuck do you mean? That's my whole platform. What do you mean I'm not having anything? Now you've got a huge disagreement. I think this is called, I think it's called, it might be called the bigotry of small differences, but basically that the closer somebody is to you, ideologically, these little differences seem to, yeah, I've seen this. There's a really good little process that I went through. A friend asked me, how do you know if the content creator that you're consuming is someone that you can trust, basically, how do you know if they're trustworthy?

32:21And the same thing is true, I think, for friends. You can actually use this for friends just as easily as for content creators. So they're subscribed to my channel, youtube .com .com. So that's just, yeah, yeah, that would help. But first one, when was the last time that this person surprised you with an opinion? Second one, when was the last time that they publicly admitted that they were wrong about something? Third one is, does that in group bind together of the mutual love of their in group or the mutual hatred of an outgroup and then the fourth one was, do they speak to people with different points of views and value sets for reasons other than mocking them?

33:01And if you go through those four steps and there's probably like a million others that just kind of obvious ones for me, there's no one really that triggers at least a few of those that is also a shitester. Like it's very rare, unless they're doing it performatively and playing some 5D chess, it's very rare that someone goes through those things. And I think that even using that for yourself, whether So you're someone that creates shit online or just wants to be able to make sense of the world. Thinking, okay, one was the last time that I admitted that I was wrong. One was the last time that I had an opinion that people would have probably been surprised but one was the last time that I consumed a piece of content that I probably going to disagree with.

33:35Did the people that I hang around with do we mostly talk about things that are shared values or shared hatreds? That's just a nice little process to go through and that's helped me, you know, we consume content too. Like the people that make it also consume it, you know, you're sat waiting for a newbie or doing whatever you're waiting for someone who arrives and you're like, I'll see, I'll watch Taylor Lorenz versus the lips of TikTok lady. And I'll see what goes on. And you start to form opinions about this sort of stuff. So I think it's important, like that's just a really nice self -correcting mechanism or at least like a process that you can go through that helps.

34:04Yeah, I definitely, I super agree. Yeah. I would add on to that for an individual that's listening to this or for content creators or whatever, too. Something that I've helped a lot is don't try to free yourself from biases. I think that this is a fool's errand and I think it lures you into a false sense of security. I think it's better just be aware of like cognitive pitfalls and then try to correct for them afterward So for instance, you mentioned that thing about getting upset people will dig in I Absolutely dig my fucking heels in I will and if I don't like you enough And if we're arguing passionately enough I'll argue that two bliss two equals five if I disagree to do that much And I know that about myself and I know that that's the thing I'm not going to claim that that doesn't happen and I'm not gonna spend my entire life trying to make it so that that doesn't I'm not gonna get mad or I can admit But instead what we'll do is listen when I argue I get heated I know that, but the next day, if I've got a big argument, I'm gonna review it because when I'm removed from the argument about 24 hours, now I can go over and it's like, okay, did this person make a good point?

34:55I feel like I didn't have a good response to this. Do I need to strengthen my argument? Were they better on some things and I need to just take parts of their argument? Being able to correct for biases rather than to try to eliminate them is a way healthier mindset. When I was doing research as well on certain podcasts, fuck, the conservative still comes again, but like for Dr. Malone, the guy who said he was the father of the mRNA vaccine when he was on Joe Rogan, before I started doing research and I would do a lot of this on stream, I would write at the top of a notepad for Clemson when I write the first thing I would write is I do not like Joe Rogan's opinion on vaccines.

35:25I don't trust Dr. Robert Malone at all. The reason why I write these two things down is because I know that this is priming me to disagree with anything that they say. So I have to be extra careful when one of them says something like, oh, well, oranges actually make your dick bigger. I might just think immediately, this is so stupid and write that because I hate both of them, but I need to keep on, okay, hold on. I know that I'm primed like crazy you can spell these guys. I'm aware of that. So I need to be careful when I am evaluating their claims, because I might just say that they're not true because I just don't like them.

35:51Yeah. Adjusting your site on a zero. Yeah. The zeroing on your brain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Zeroing in in your brain. Yeah. That's a nice way to put it. Yeah. You have to just like try to correct for biases or be aware of them, but don't pretend that you can get rid of them. You absolutely cannot. There's no way as a human being. Do you think that the debates that you do help to change minds? Obviously, you've spent you've got this big one coming up and you've done it a number over the last few months. and it's like a high price, although you're interested, right? You're engaged and stuff.

36:19What do you think is the net outcome of you sitting down with Glenn Greenwald and Alex Jones, or you sitting down with Norman Finkelstein and Lex Reedman or whatever? I think there's several things that happen. One is that hopefully there's a broad, broad, broad narrative thing, but hopefully it shapes the views a little bit of both sides. So if you're a pro -Palestinian and you hear me argue, maybe you moderate a tad on some of the things that you're saying about how evil and bloodthirsty Israeli citizens are. If you're a super big Zionist and you hear me argue, hopefully you moderate a bit on your opinion It's like okay, maybe it's real has made some mistakes historically and then if you're homeless in the middle Those are the people that I try to like scoop up basically are people who email me and let's be like hey I was really big on this pro -Palestinian stuff But all the demonstrations and the pro -Homostuff made me feel really like crazy and not at home I'm glad I found something that's reasonable, or maybe it's like, hey, I'm like a super pro Zionist guy, but, you know, I'm really uncomfortable with how much people support the mass settlements and, you know, the demonization of Palestinians and pretending like we never have to make any concession to them ever, and I'm glad that you're there.

37:18So, yeah, I try to kind of scoop up the people who are a little bit politically homeless right now, and then hopefully I can kind of soften the positions on both sides depending on what particular issue that I'm arguing with. Which is presumably why you've got a problem with the short sound bite thing because it doesn't allow the entirety of the conversation to be encapsulated. Yeah, basically. And people, I don't like short sound bites because people don't engage with them like short sound bites. I don't make 30 second videos. If you hear me say something in 30 seconds, that's gonna be an excerpt from a larger conversation.

37:47If you hear me say something like, Destiny says that Palestinians have historically always been violent towards Israel, okay? I think that's a true statement. That's a sound bite that you can cut. And if you have that sound bite, what you would say is like, in my opinion, you could say like, oh, Destiny believes that Palestinians have historically always been violent towards the state of Israel. That's fine. But you can't take that and say, Destiny thinks that Palestinians are solely to blame for the problems between Israel and Palestine. Or Destiny only thinks it's Palestinians who've made mistakes historically with Israel Palestine.

38:15People will extrapolate so much from one clip instead of just watching a larger conversation or getting more of a holistic view on what's going on. The equivalent would be, you hear a friend. If we conducted ourselves in the real world, people treat content creators. You'd be hanging out with a friend and you'd be like, hey, what do you want to eat? You're from it. So like, you know what, I can really go for a pizza right now. And you're like, pizza, do you hate all Indian food? Like, what do you mean? No, I just want a pizza. Do you hate steak? No, I just wanted a pizza. Well, okay, well, you just said that you like pizza.

38:39Do you not like any other type of food? Or it's just like so bizarre that you think in 20 seconds you can get a clip and have a full summary of like, what somebody has thought about an issue or said about an issue. Did you watch, how much have you got to watch that Taylor Lorenz versus Libs of TikTok debate? Did you watch much of it? I watched, there is, part of it was posted on Twitter. I think like three minutes and I watched that How much is it like the most? I should get 15 minutes into it. Okay. And it was a car crash. It was, so you say that books should be banned from schools. Which books have you read?

39:08And it was, I've actually read this one and this one and this one. You think that children's body parts should be cut off. Which parts exactly? And it was just like this, I know like an unstoppable object in an immovable force, like just clashing up against each other. And Taylor Renz has got this mask on outside, which just seems to be like, it's like purposefully. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, like it's like the this is my joke that like every single like if somebody like so many Democrats got long COVID So many Republicans got vaccine injuries. It's just so crazy how that worked out You know every every conservative they got vaccinated It was 10 people that have died from vaccines and every Democrat seems to know like five people with long COVID It's crazy how the it's sorted us off out that way, you know Yeah, what's the because there's woke fishing?

39:46What's the other one like tried fishing? I guess, but this is like tried triggering Right, it's like purposefully doing thing Say what you want about Taylor Lorenz. Like she knows the objects of what she's doing. Have you seen her Instagram? No, I'm not. It's just, I don't need to spend too much time on it, but it's a lot of like meta memes about what's going on kind of about the situations about all the rest of it. So she's obviously playing this like huge. Oh, do you think, do you think that the mask was part of the meme then? Absolutely. Oh, I have so much more respect for her. 100 %. I thought she was just like, oh, that's really funny then.

40:17Five, five, five. I saw it and I was just like, oh god, why are the people still wearing masks? I was like, It's 100 % because she knew that by sitting down doing it, that I think I'm not calling Taylor Lorenz a media genius. Like, I think that she's pretty reliably an idiot. But there are certain things that she's able to, like, certain games that she's able to play. Okay. Where she's doing that. And the reason that I think this, I've got my biases based on her Instagram and her Instagram is very meta. It's all about the narratives about her or about what she's been talking about or whatever.

40:49And if you saw it, you'd go, yeah, like, the takes a degree of sort of stepping out from it and seeing it from where it is. It doesn't make a point or any better of a person, but interesting. Yeah, I think the mask, I think the mask was a bit. I'll check that out later than that's pretty funny. It's pretty funny, it is pretty funny. The only thing I would have made it better, I guess, is if she showed up with like a little bandaid on her arm for the, I just got my 7 -5. Yeah, 58 boosts for sure, yeah. I had this conversation the other day about whether or not we passed peak woke, like whether I did about a year and a half ago, that's my guess.

41:21What would it have been? I feel like, I think that there have been a couple court cases. One was near, I think it was about two years ago, it was at a school called Oberlin something. And I think a black person tried to steal something from a bakery across the school. And the students, and the bakery called the cops, and they ate all the person there. And the students protested saying the bakery was racist, but the college joined in with the students basically. And I think that college basically ended up owing like $30 million to the bakery over that lawsuit. It was huge. There was that. There was the whole flushing the Harvard and the two other administrators get raked over the colds on the weird.

42:03Yeah. That was really cringe. And I think most people saw this such. I think a lot of the pro -Palestinian stuff, which is unfortunate because they do need good international representation. But the marches and all of that was not good. was not good publicity for them. Yeah, and I just, I feel like people are looking at all kind of the cancel culture stuff a little bit less. I feel like anecdotally, like the word retard is coming back a bit more. And it's, Shane Gell is used to work gay in his SNL. Did you watch this? I have not. Oh, he was gay and cracker, didn't he? He was great, gay, cracker, and retard.

42:36Okay. My chat said that, and they said I need to watch it because he said gay and cracker. I haven't watched it yet. And retard. Okay, wow. So yeah, he's doing this bit about how as a young boy, you're basically young mum's gay best friend and he says, you remember that? You remember when you were young, you were just gay and then starts rolling into the get. So he kind of tempers it a little bit and shlays it down the line. But yeah, I think you're right. I think like those words coming back into resurgence and there was a different social issues and this sort of performative empathy toxic compassion thing that was like novel and made you seem progressive underwear.

43:20And now it seems like a meme. Yeah, and it also, it didn't really penetrate as much as people thought it would. It's very funny because the perception in the United States fucking about the bully conservators again. The reception in the United States is that the far left was a huge problem and there might be some extremists on the right or whatever. But the reality is the far left didn't make it anywhere legislatively. Of the justice stems that got in, they've moderated so much that now the wokeies have abandoned them. They're super angry about Bernie Sanders and his position at the SQL Palestine.

43:48They've not liked AOC for a long time because they thought she sold out to Pelosi and she's not attacking other Democrats as much. So they have no power in the law -making bodies. Largely speaking, like older Americans don't vibe with the super woke stuff, basically, at all. And the only place that these people kind of have powers in like school administration. I'm gonna say. And even for like some of the school stuff, people are kind of looking at this like this is getting kind of silly. you're not seeing the huge protests and demonstrations like you used to against the Milo -Yanopolises and everything.

44:13But on the right, their party is about to jump off a cliff following Donald Trump. Something like 80 % of Republicans would literally follow Donald Trump to the end of the earth, which is a big problem for the Republican Party, but they seem to not think that they're captured by anything. So it's funny that for the most part, like the Democratic Party and Democratic voters are basically like, center left. And they kind of got tugged along a little bit with all the crazy woke stuff, but now they're kind of like, Yeah, this is like whatever, but on the far right, I think it's something like, I say far right, but it's the majority of Republicans.

44:40I think it's something like 70 % of them don't believe in the results of the last election. They think that it was actually rigged. That like when you look at policies in terms of far right, disbelieving the last election versus allowing trends, fucking like child porn bucks in schools or whatever the next, the most recent accusation is, I don't know whether people would find an equivalency between those two things. The biggest problem that I think are the thing that people often have underrate is how pervasive the belief is. So for instance, like Nazism in the alt -right, in my opinion, was a big concern because of the type of belief that it was, but it never really picked up that much.

45:18It was a French belief. Yeah, it was a French, right? And then that, and I had a huge problem from 2016 onwards of like, you know, like people in the left calling everybody a fucking Nazi. I'm like, bro, dude, no, stop. Don't even neo -Nazis. It's not a good label to call all of these people Nazis, all of these people outright. It doesn't make any sense. And I agreed, like I said, for the, especially for the trans stuff, although I think we've moved past like the peak culture moment for that, although a lot of that was also, it continued to be perpetuated because conservatives apparently had nothing else to talk about besides trans people.

45:46So they fed into it a lot as well. That's true, man. I mean, we saw so much of the discourse was not necessarily about the first incident. It was about the reaction to the incident and the subsequent reaction to the reaction and then the discourse that came out about that. And also the overreact, this goes back to the moderated reactions thing. I feel this is a totally unsubstantiated belief. I can't prove this at all, just my feeling. I feel like a lot of parents got mad about stuff in school libraries and about what their kids would in class, not because it's gotten worse than it ever has been, but because with COVID and with children staying home, for the first time ever, parents were actually looking at the curriculum, whether children were learning.

46:24And for the first time ever, they were like, like, wait, what the fuck is this? Like, well, it's not a problem just because you're not aware of it. Sure. Which I agree, but I have an issue with people thinking that stuff has become uniquely bad. Something that I believe in very firmly is, I think the downfall of Andrew Tate, I also can't prove this, I think the downfall of Andrew Tate started with those stories that came out of the UK about little boys in class, bullying little girls using Andrew Tate's stuff. Those stories got huge. And then the talk of like our little boys in school, learning things from Andrew Tate and blah blah blah blah.

46:56And it was horrible and people had, you know, art of war. You get very defensive about children in many ways. Yeah, but the thing that I was thinking was like, yeah, I'm sure this has happened, yeah, it's definitely horrible. But how much are we just now seeing, you know, little boys and girls bullying each other in school because you've got cell phones in front of everybody? This isn't a new thing. And I'm not saying it's okay, but like we've always bullied the fuck out of each other's school. You know? Yes. So to circle back, I'm not defending the whatever weird trans books or sex or gay sex guides or whatever existence school libraries.

47:23I'm sure they're out there and I'm sure a lot of them are inappropriate and dumb. But like, there's a switch, thank God it hasn't happened to me yet. But parents like flip a switch when they become parents, where they forget every single thing about being a kid. And they're like, oh my God, this is the worst thing ever. I kept looking at my kid as fucking seeing this shit and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, when I was a kid, I don't know if it was like this is okay. But I remember staying up at night, where you would go to like, it was channel 14 and 15, and it was like the cinematics. Like softcore.

47:46Yeah, but it was like blurry. But like every now and then, it would like come through. of the boob. Kind of see like the boob and it was like green. Yeah, that's what we did as kids, but I feel like if parents are their kids doing it today, they'd be like, oh my god, it's the wokeness that's like getting my 12 year old to think of porn. Or if like a movie like Mrs. Doubtfire came out today, they'd be like, wow, Robin Williams pushing the woke trans cross dressing agenda. It was like brown. Interesting, yeah. Yeah, that is a, I don't know man, the capturing of smart people's attention, Douglas Murray, good friend, and he said, He can't believe how many people have spent their time over the last few years debating about whether men and men and women are not.

48:24And that's a critique, I think, both of this shouldn't be a discussion that we're having, i .e. sex is something which is binary and real. And also, the overreaction from his own side of this capture, when there are other things that we could be focusing on, he went and did this documentary around the streets of Philadelphia looking at this trank epidemic. Yeah. Like that's a much, that's a huge problem. A fentanyl and opioid crisis, all this shit. Like those are really, really, really big problems. But they don't play quite so well on - As the culture war stuff, yeah. Yes. Yeah. And so you've got like DeSantis passing stuff in Florida of like banning hormone therapy for transits.

49:04Like how many people is this even impacting? I remember when Matt Walsh went on Joe Rogan and I think Rogan asked him, how many kids do you think are on hormones? And this is right up to you in a whole documentary on it. And Matt Walsh was like, it's probably in the millions. And the answer was like 5 ,000 over like, so many of you was like, really dude? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, another thing that's played into this. And there's always something new. And dude, I'm, you know, vehemently against almost all of the bullshit work stuff. But not only for the reason I think that it's in itself is dog shit, but that it captures everyone's attention on all sides.

49:37You get the reaction, then you get the subsequent re -reaction, and then that becomes this big debate and you get to blown out of Noah, it's like, especially, for some reason, especially the woke stuff, for both sides, seems like such a shaling point that everybody can get super passionate about. And this most recent thing with Gemini, with Google, I don't even know. What is this? Google's AI disaster, have you not seen this? No, my mind is not. I know all studying for this debate. Yeah, what's this? Allow me to educate you. Go ahead. Google. Oh, wait, wait. Is this the thing when you ask for pictures?

50:08It's always of like black people and Asian people. That would be correct. I've seen the memes, I don't know anything else about it. Okay, so I don't know, in depth, I'll try and give you a good overview. It tried to be so anti -racist that it ended up being racist. And it annoyed people on the left because if you asked for an image of some Nazis, it was black Nazis. And then it annoyed people on the right because if you asked for an image of the founding fathers, it was black founding fathers. So everybody got pissed off. And then it sort of did a combination of hidden erased history in this regard.

50:39but people were using it, using its anti -racism to be really racist. So they would say something like, can you give me an image of 14th century philosophers drinking grape juice and eating watermelon? And it would be for black people drinking grape juice and eating watermelon. So just the whole retroactive changing of history after the Super Bowl thing, where they collected, corrected Alicia Keys voice, I think at the start. But it's all part of some, like a big constellation of different data points that are making people very concerned about what's happening to history and what's unacceptable.

51:14It also has implications for whether or not Google itself is a reliable search. Is it going to deliver information in a way which is actually factual, like given that so many people are going to use that to try and find something out there. What if all of the real stuff is hidden down on page fucking five? You don't know. So, yeah, I mean, from a branding position, very bad. I could not have done it more poorly than this. And it's probably, according to Mike Baker, it's probably gone through a million differently. This isn't the sort of thing. It's not like a Bud Light thing that perhaps was just one part of the marketing department that threw a case of six packet at Dillamilvaney.

51:48This is gone through an awful lot of layers before it's got here. So it doesn't seem like it's happened by accident. So you think there was like an intentional ploy to make it like not racist? I think that they have force feeding diversity in so much. Obviously, they didn't mean for it to be so apparent that like anyone with the most basic prompt in history could create something which had a standard. Like, you can't make it to make a family of white, or you couldn't get it to make a family of white people. I think the only way you could get it to make white people is if you ask for Ukrainians.

52:17But it was like a Native American president and show me an image of the king of Spain from the 18th century, and it's like a black guy. So I think that it was force -feeding diver, and you can say, ask it things like, show me your working or explain to me why you did this. And it's just the most rudimentary, basic, woki talking points. Like the most cringe, it is important that we represent people from diverse backgrounds and maybe, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just it was that. So it wasn't much complexity to it, but this force -feeding of diversity plays into the DEI concern that a lot of people have at the moment, and it's just more distraction.

52:57I'm like, God, if this hadn't happened, if you just made it an accurate representation of what people needed, but now we've got another, and right now, this very moment, could be talking about something else that would be really useful, but it's another important cultural moment to try and dissect to work out what's going on. And it just, every single time, it pushes us back. It pushes us back, pushes us back. I think there are two huge issues at play. The first thing is I always tell people, If you're trying to engage in real true political discourse, you should not understand people. Don't ever start with the assumption that people are doing like evil crazy stuff.

53:29I think that when you start from that perspective, you've already lost the ability to understand the other side. People on the left that want trans kids legitimately feel like, or a lot of them, legitimately feel like they're our children that are in need, that have to get some medical stuff to make their lives workable, basically. I think that probably comes from a place of compassion, generally speaking. I think that when people on the right are fighting against stuff related to trans kids, I think they genuinely believe that there are a lot of children that can get confused and then get swept up in online communities and then start taking medication or hormones and they don't know what's going on and it's going to be damaging to them.

54:01And I think it generally comes from a place of compassion. I think it's important to start from there because if you start from the place of like, while my enemy is trying to destroy the country for xyz reasons, you're like, you're totally lost, right? The people that did the instruction on January 6th, I imagine they genuinely thought that the election was stolen. They really did think that that election was stolen and that there was some crazy stuff happening and that's why they had to go to the White House and try to stop the, you know, the confirmation of vote and everything. I genuinely believe that they thought that not that they were just like, we're gonna mess everything up right now because we're some real bad dudes.

54:31I think that I only say that because usually when corporations make mistakes, I think that they're usually trying their best because when a lot of people are involved, I think they're usually trying their best. Now, it's just like one or two people involved. Sometimes like personal agendas can really mess things up. But if it's a lot of people involved the idea that they just top down order of like, okay guys Fuck white people. We're gonna do this. We're gonna get it. We're gonna edit them out We're gonna make sure that we're blah blah blah blah blah as opposed to somebody like listen We got to make sure that these are you know diverse enough We don't want to have us so every single thing is spinning out a million white people and then they probably overcorrect it Yeah, I think it cowardice cowardice.

55:05Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. It's so this is Andrew Schultz talked me about this like his Schultz is razor Is it's not coordination. It's cowardice sure. Yeah, because somebody might be scoters and like hey Are we fucking up right now guys? Because you don't want to be the one to... Yeah, for sure. And that could absolutely be a thing too. I think it's a huge... I think that's a big part of it. And especially with this dynamic we're talking about now. Because if you're the guy, it's like the being the fucking first person that stops clapping after like some dictator that stands up and gives a speech.

55:32Yeah, I'm not gonna be the fucking first person to stop clapping. Yeah. Not gonna be the guy that says, maybe this whole diversity thing, maybe it's going too far. Maybe we don't need to do affirmative action. Maybe we should keep the SATs. Maybe they do actually have a... Maybe men actually need a little bit of affirmative action in school. Or maybe we're going a little bit too far on having, you know, 20 % of our advertised trends. So you think that women, you want to get women out of the bullroom and back into the kitchen, is that right? But remember, it's because a slight difference in applied position will be interpreted as a huge difference in fundamental moral belief.

56:02You want to cut trans -avertise because you hate trans people. You want to get back on the diversity stuff because you think white people are better than black. Right? That's always where it goes. So it's so hard for, and in these environments it's going to be a lot of like -minded people so hard for them to course correct, which is why I talk about how when those two groups like branch off into their own thing, that is incredibly destructive. I hate the fact that conservatives all talked about how we need to get out of the schools because they're corrupt and whatever the fuck, because now the people in the schools are even more fucking insane.

56:28I need you there. You need to be there. You gotta be participating. Or when left -leaning people don't want to participate in certain aspects of like conservative culture, when left -leaning people don't want to celebrate success or wealth or business is doing well or patriotism. Okay, well cool. Well, now if I have a if I'm a patriotic American, I basically have to be a fucking conservative because I'm not going to be patriotic on the side that's telling me to hate my country for fucking slavery and colonialism and white supremacy Recap that so it's the difference in applied position is indicative of a difference a change in value That's what people feel like.

56:56Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So just because this is something that you want to have happen in the real world There is an implication about your moral stance because for most people they didn't do the work to go from the initial the grounded ethical stance to the applied position. And since they didn't do the work, it's one and the same to them. That's why if I talk about Israel -Palestin, it's still frustrating, it still happens. If I was talking about Israel -Palestin, I'd say, I don't think I would say anything happening right now is apartheid or genocide. They don't hear, okay, you don't think it's a part of the genocide.

57:25They hear, you think it's okay, what's happening? You think that Palestinians should live in territories where they never get a state? You think it's okay to kill civilians? That's what people hear. The same way that you might say, I don't know if I support affirmative action. You just don't like black people. You think that it's their fault, everything in the United States. Or if you say maybe we've gone a bit too far on the diversity stuff, they're like, oh, okay, well, the only reason you can think that is because you hate diversity. And you're a white supremacist, yeah. Because they, yeah, those things are so connected.

57:50So it's not a slippery slope of, it's like an interpretation of slippery slopeness. It's this very small iceberg above the water. This happens. It's not even a slippery slope, it's a horizontal platform. That's it. These things are here. That's why when you, who's the Alex O 'Connor worker, whatever, There's an ethical position. I think it's called, you can be an ethical anti -realist who believes in non -cognitiveism. And when you believe in non -cognitiveism, what you're saying is, when I express a moral proposition, I say that murder is bad. What I'm actually doing is I'm just expressing an emotional state.

58:20Murder, boo. I don't know. Murder, boo. A motive. Like it's non -cognitiveism, right? No, no, no. Is it a motor positivism? Fucking goddamn it. I guess what I'm random is philosophy. He's gonna scream at me. Uh -oh. Talked me about this two nights ago in Miami. He came out from my birthday. So emotive fucking epistemics or something like that. Maybe that, but yeah, it's basically, I mean, this is one of his best ideas that he taught me and I've now forgotten. But yes, it's basically whenever somebody says that they're in support of something or against something, it's basically like, yay abortion or boo aborted.

58:52Exactly, yes. And then they work back from that position and just try and - Right, I don't even work back, they just sit there. Yes, okay. That's why, so like for instance, if a girl releases a story, I cover a lot of, we call them rape reviews on my stream. It's a little crude, but uh, reviews. Yeah, because people put out the Me Too stories and then we'll read through them. It's like, okay, well, what is the, do we feel like there's a credible allegation of what's going on? Okay. And for a lot of these things, if you say woman raped, you're saying what you're really saying is what happened to it was really bad.

59:17And if somebody out, or boo, rape, yeah. Or boo, whatever that was. And if you're kind of like, well, I looked at this, I think the guy was definitely pushy. There might have been like some groping, like not good sexual, so I don't think it was rape. They hear you saying rape, yay. Mm. Or if you push against the diversity measures, you know, white supremacy, yay. Or if you push against the, you know, the trans youth stuff, like, oh, discrimination, yay. Oh, trans suicide, yay. Because for a lot of people, the applied position and the ethical position are one and the same. These are inexorably linked and there is no difference that can happen.

59:49Which again, if you're debating somebody different than you, who the fuck cares? I don't care if we have different applied and ethical positions, we're supposed to. But if it's somebody similar to you, we can't be disagreeing. What do you mean you don't think there's a genocide? Do you think it's okay to murder innocent civilians? Like those two things are linked and they're not. is a total non -sequitor, yeah. Just how unified is the left compared with the right, do you think, at the moment? This can be within the cultural commentary space, this can be within the people who support the side, this can be within the politicians that are a part of it.

1:00:18Do you have a sense of how fractured each of these are comparatively? I feel like the right is more unified, probably because they have a figure like Trump to unify around. The left feels a little bit more scattered, but there's also gonna become, there's also like very dependent on the communities that you're in. Like I said, like if you're online on Twitter, your impression of the American left in the United States is like a crazy woke mob of like cancel culture, children running around the streets. And then you forget that like if you go, you know, to like, you know, like North Carolina or Georgia and you're talking to like 30 year old, 35 year old, 50 year old like black voters and stuff, these people are not woke, pro trans people running around on the streets saying like, my child needs HRT, right?

1:01:00This is not the demographic at all. or even when you're like at like older Democratic voters. Like generally these people are gonna be kind of the cool old woke people. The cool like the cosmopolitan elites who are like, yeah, I am a woke person. I believe in gay marriage. That used to be like the woke position. What would be Yuppies, doesn't it? Yeah. And though, but those people largely had like cool social beliefs. Like I think that we should have gay marriage. I think freedom of speech is important. I think that, yeah, it was like we should probably have some kind of like worker protections and unions need to come back and like those kinds of woke things.

1:01:29It's not the like my four year old identifies as it's a whatever. Tag Calli -Captain. Yeah. Also, on a real quick thing too, because you brought this up early with both sides on this. One of the big issues the left has is a situation will come up. Somebody comes down and they say, my four year old child is trans. And I know that because they kicked right in the womb or whatever. And then, because they were just a go, you're fucking insane. What should happen is, is what I do when somebody comes to me and they bring me a crazy left -wing belief and they'll go, what about when this guy said that this thing can happen?

1:02:03When they said that like, all women are constantly being raped by men by looking at them. Then what I say is, oh, that's really dumb. And then you move on. One of the big reasons why some of these small issues get blown up so much is because the people on the left will take the bait and they will start defending, absurd shit. There is not an epidemic of people with four -year -old trans people in the United States. There is an epidemic of people willing to defend them though. And that's the issue. And that's why people on the right feel so justified in like their culture war stuff. Even if it's not a huge amount of people.

1:02:29Yeah, it took me a long time to figure this out because I'm always thinking, I'm like, why is this such a huge issue? What it's said, trans people are like 1 % of the population, if that, depending on how many intersects you've been to the discolors. Yeah, and when you talk to conservatives, you look at you, Gulf Poles. I think the one that I saw was, I think conservatives think 20 % of people are trans in the US. And I'm like, well, why is this the case? But then when you look at the left, well, how many people are they're willing to defend it? And now I understand more. Okay, yeah. Wow, yeah, that's very interesting.

1:02:55So it's like a, it's not about the volume of incidents that occur. It's about the volume of the volume of discussions that occur around that. People willing to defend it. Yes. Of course, if everybody in law is like, yeah, this is really dumb. When you defend the right, because who the fuck are they going to fight against? Right? So when Tim Pull and all these people obsessed over these weird books and libraries about like guides to gay sex or whatever, like this is brought up to me. I'm going, okay, if that's in those libraries, yeah, that's pretty weird. It probably shouldn't be there in schools.

1:03:23And then you're done with it. It's not going to be a huge thing on like, well, LGBT people and gay people need to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, it is weird and it's dumb. It just don't defend it. And then move on from it. Why would you, why would you stake your position there and die on that hill? And there's so many more important things to fight over. Hmm. Who do you think is doing the best work in the political space at the moment? Is there anyone that you watch yourself or is there anyone that you think, even if I don't watch them, I can respect the way that they work with this stuff? I don't watch enough because I stream and I work like all the time.

1:03:50So it's hard to like sit down and listen to like podcast or shows or whatever. Yeah, I don't want to venture any guesses. I'm sure there are people out there, but most of what I see is not good. But it's also those are mostly the people that I debate and everything. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting world at the moment. I think looking at, wait, I will shout out one guy. His name is Josiah or pondering politics. He's a cool guy. His channel was like exploding recently. He does a good job at trying to evaluate things like pretty fairly from the Democratic side, yeah. Who, not Chris Lensager, who's the other guy that's kind of like slightly left leaning, being on Rogan a bunch, records in that green, he's got like a neon green behind him.

1:04:28No idea. Fuck the guy's name. Even if you think of it, I'm not gonna know him properly. Right, okay. Well, he seems to be like kind of popular. Uh -huh. And then you got a debate with, second time actually, one of the last times that we were together was at the Volkan when you were on stage with Alex Jones, and then you had another crack. How did that go? Uh, about as I expected it to, yeah. He's definitely very much like a showman, which I can't tell that hit makes me hit him more or less. I don't know. How do you mean? Like, I think that he is legitimately a grifter and that like he knows he's putting on a show.

1:04:59Like, I remember when we were talking, he did this thing where when we were having a conversation back before, I think I started like, oh, I saw like mock him and he looked at me. And I think he put his hand on my shoulder and I moved his hand, I was like, don't touch me. And I remember when... Will you genuinely ever tell you? No, I just don't like it. If somebody's trying to like show like physical dumb, it's like, no, get your fucking hand off me. We're not gonna do this, right? If you wanna kill me, we can kill me, but you're not gonna put your hand on me. It's fucking weird, you're not my dad.

1:05:20but I remember after we finished, right? And I'm, because I feel very strongly about all my political beliefs. If you talk to anybody in my personal life, they're gonna take you that like, if we go out to eat and you bring up something, that it's great, it's gonna be just like a street memory. Arguably, I just feel very passionately about everything that I've been leaving. But after the show with Alex Jones, you know, like I'm still like pretty like in the zone of debate, like he got, he was like, oh, that was, that was a great show, it was real funny. When you did that, get your hand off me thing, hilarious or whatever, right?

1:05:43And he's just like, walks away. And I think for him, I think it literally is just like a big show, like he just has fun with it. He's like WWE. Basically, yeah. Which in one sense might make me dislike him less because I'm like, okay, well, he doesn't actually believe in the crazy things he says. But then in another sense, it kind of makes me hate him more because it's like, well, fuck, your listeners definitely believe this shit. And now I don't know if you're propagating this for like fun and people are really taking you seriously even though you don't. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I understand what you mean.

1:06:07If someone is compelled because of the way that they believe that it legitimates, that the gregarious position is like, oh, well, you kind of, at the mercy of your emotions. As opposed to if... Yeah, that's a difficult one. This is why I don't usually spend much time figuring out if somebody's a grifter or not, because this is a matter, the harm is real regardless. Well, if you're on the internet, everybody's a grifter and everybody's a shill, and everybody is stupid, and everyone is in it for the money, and doesn't really agree with what they believe in, and they're just doing it because they're a part of the whatever...

1:06:36Whatever, the media apparatus. But the people followers do. So that's what you have to address. Even if Ben Shapiro and all these people are grifters, the people that listen to them really believe it. So that's what you have to do. Second order, it's the second order thing again about it's not about the incident. It's about how the incident is interpreted It's not about the event that happens. It's about how many people then prepare to defend themselves in that event. Yeah Yeah, well, I don't fucking know man. It's it seems it seems to me like a very messy time and I'm really really hoping that it's just gonna be more sane out the other side of this everything seems to be ramping up ready for November, but I don't know well Well, wait and see.

1:07:15Do you think the Red Pill is dying? That's something that both of us have spent a little bit of time orbiting in one form or another, either you debating it or me getting abused by it. What do you think is happening with the Red Pill at the moment? I think most stuff has like a probably like a two to four year shelf life for internet content and I think it kind of came and it kind of went and you're taking it and the pre -trial or pre -dipment imprisonment probably hurt a bit because it took away a lot of the publicity. I think that the nature of like the conversations or the Red Pill stuff, I think was really bad.

1:07:42I think the content strategy from a lot of the red pillars I think was very subpar.

1:07:51Also, for me, the way that I've stayed fresh and relevant for 15 years of content creation is because I'm always finding new stuff to talk about or a new angle to kind of like hit something from or like I'm kind of moving on with contemporary events. I feel like for Redpill stuff, I feel like I could have written a script for those shows after being on two of them to where it's like, okay guys today we're going to talk about Does body count matter? Do guys value you for the amount of money that you make? Do women fuck over men in divorce? I'm in lonely because of the simps. It was like the same topics for like over a year.

1:08:19Such that it became like a meme or when I would show up on a show. Some of them seem to be like bingo cards. I'm like, okay, well when is the body count question coming up? Hi Pergamot. Yeah, hi Pergamot. Our women, hi Pergamot's are not. And then it's like, and then it's funny because like the questioning would always, there's a fallacy called all roads lead to Rome. I think if there's not there should be one. We're basically literally no matter how somebody answers There is no. It always goes back to what you wanted to. So I might say to a girl, have you ever dated a guy? You say you don't care if guys are all, if you're a dated guy that's 55, and the girl might be like, no I haven't.

1:08:50Cause you hate short guys, you know? You won't. And she's like, oh no. Okay, have you ever dated a guy that's 55? Yes I have. Oh, when? When I was in a high school, I actually dated a guy that's 55. Really? Are you together anymore with him? Well no, you dumped him because he was a short king, right? Like yeah. Or are you dating a guy that's 55? He's like, yeah, I am now. It's like, oh really? Is he rich? No, he's not that rich. Does he have a huge dick? Yeah, his dick is pretty big. Oh, hypergamous. You just want the pool boy. You're probably gonna find a rich guy and still fuck. There's always an Andrew Tade actually is the perfect example of the all roads lead to Rome.

1:09:20Okay. When Andrew Tade had the pretrial imprisonment, there were never gonna be charges because it was all a scam. It was just a shim kangaroo court. Now that there are charges, if there wouldn't have been charges and he would have been released with no charges, no indictment, it was because obviously it was a scam. Right? But now that there are charges, well obviously because it's a scam. Of course they're going to make up charges So now they're going to go to court and if they go to court and they get if they go to court and they beat the charges It's because it was bullshit the whole time But if they go to go to court and they're convicted Well, it's because it's bullshit the whole time they're going to make it up always so literally no matter what happens It's always because of your particular prediction of the world Yeah You end up with these prediction models that will predict every single event which means they don't actually predict anything but it allows you to escape the cognitive dissonance of your predictive model not being correct.

1:10:07So you don't have to worry if you've got a good view, like a good blueprint of the world because literally no matter what happens, you've always got a way to make sense of it in the future. Well, this is why that four -step process of one of the last time someone publicly admitted that they were wrong, one of the last time they surprised you. If someone came out and had a discussion about this, and was like, you know what it is, I actually think that a lot of the time I do actually see girls in relationships with guys that hypothetically I wouldn't predict that they were in a relationship with.

1:10:31That guy just seems to have game. It's not really about the fact that he's tall or fit or rich or has status or or any of these things He just seems to be like a really nice guy and she wants to have a family and he ends up being you know I wasn't expecting that. I wasn't expecting that. That was something that would have surprised me You think okay, well that shows an evolution of talking points But I don't know how many times and this is why you know, I've Still fascinated an evolutionary psychology and intersectional and intersectional dynamics and all of that stuff It's still very interesting to me, but the whole, like, lambasting women for having standards that are too high, that never was something that really crossed my world of content creation.

1:11:13But even now it's like, okay, so what else is happening? How can, here's an interesting angle. Here's a much more interesting angle for me for something that's contemporary in view. This skew of young girls to the left and this skew of young guys to the right, given the fact that most people date within their political affiliation and because politics are becoming more important to each individual person now, that's interesting. That's like a new, okay, so what are we, where's this coming from and what's this mean? 30 % of Democrat parents are afraid that their son or daughter would marry a Republican.

1:11:42That's interesting. I was like, what about parental pressure and how does that play into it? That's interesting. You can keep talking about the same thing, but do it with a different angle on it, continuing to just hammer away in the same points. I know, it's just, fairly, if you have that degree of patience, maybe, to be able to just have the same conversation a thousand times, but it's a, I don't have that in my toolbox. The description is boring, the descriptive part, because yeah, it's the same thing over and over again. And then the prescriptive part is boring, because for a lot of these movements, people don't actually give you good advice to kind of navigate it sometimes, unless you can become a top one per center.

1:12:19Instead, what they try to prescribe is like, a world that doesn't exist anymore. Like, this is no good because women have birth control, because women are earning money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. not changing. So you have to give advice for the world that exists now. Not tell guys, you have to become a top one percent or you need to earn so much fucking money that the traditional girls would ever go back to liking you. It's never advice geared towards, well, how do you navigate the modern world where women don't need men as much, where women are looking for different things in relationships?

1:12:43How do you navigate that? It's just like we need to go back to the days of old and everything is messed up now because of feminism and complaining and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Talk to me about the ADHD diagnosis. It seems like a big change for you. Yeah, so totally huge change. I think when my son was seven, he had huge attention problems in school, such that he would like, he was like rolling around on the floor. He couldn't, he couldn't stay in his chair. Between classes, they were having him crawl through like resistance tunnels to like burn off energy. It was a huge problem of focus. At home, it was really hard to get him to stay on task for like chores.

1:13:24If I wanted to go out and like pick up leaves with them like doing the yard or whatever it's really really really difficult to get him to stay on task And then like that And then at some point because we considered initially like maybe his autism or something weird like that I don't know and then the School Psychology school therapist or whatever flow to the idea of ADHD And then we took him to get any evaluation and he got like clearly marked for ADHD and I didn't buy that because I can Play games with my son of we're playing like Minecraft or something He can sit there on the computer for fucking 16 hours and I would like do these bullshit tests I was like, okay, no, we're gonna sit here, we're gonna look at each other for five fucking minutes.

1:13:56You're not gonna move, we're gonna sit here and do this. Like, I know you can do this. And we would, and you could do these things. I'm like, this is, I don't, this is 80 things bullshit. I don't believe it. I didn't even believe it like 80, she was really a real thing. So then, now, that's my personal feelings on it. And at the time, like, that's written at the top of the dark. Yeah, I don't believe that it's real. I would never take a brain pill medication because I don't want to change who I am, blah, blah, blah. But my responsibility as a father to him I'm super seeds my own personal views on it.

1:14:23So I owe it, if, for nothing else, I owe it to him to at least do the research. So when I started doing reading and research on ADHD, I come across a whole bunch of things that I didn't understand relating to ADHD. And the most shocking thing was for everything that I researched, I was trying to find does his behavior show up. I found all of my old behavior showing up. So huge discrepancies on like standardized testing where I might do like 98th or 99th percentile and everything versus like GPAs or homework. I didn't ever do homework. My GP was a 2 .7. That was curved up because of like honors classes and AP classes.

1:14:57So my GP was horrible. I had I have like a teacher sign my assignment notebook and then my parents sign it or also I would get a detention because I was so bad at doing homework. I didn't like to read. I would cry if I got assigned reading for more than like a few pages. I could never do it. I remember in high school I used to do like I would do like cliff notes and spark notes and extended readings that I could avoid doing the actual reading. It was just like a bunch of really, really dumb behavior. But I always thought because I could play video games for 16 hours, I must not have ADHD. And that's like one of, that's like three of like 15 other different behaviors in like Jesus Christ.

1:15:26So after I read all that, I was like, okay, fuck it. My son, I guess if I'm to believe ADHD is real, my son probably has it. So he got medication, it helped him with time for school and he's continued to stand on it. It's helped him with time for school. Seven years later, think about like five or six months ago, I've got a friend that's staying with me and she suggests he's like, listen, everybody knows you have ADHD. It's like a joke on stream and blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, yeah, but everybody is 80 % to everybody's autism, like whatever. And she has Adderall and she's like, you should just try this for like a week.

1:15:50And I'm like, okay, fuck it, why not sure? And I enjoy recreational drugs. I tried the Adderall and for the first two or three days, I was definitely like, amphetamine high. Okay, I don't know if you've like done amphetamine recreationally. It's just like, it's like a euphoric, you feel so good, you're like in a good mood, you're super heavy. And I'm like, okay, this is cool, but I'm like, I'm fucking high, okay, I know it is. I know what it is, I know what an amphetamine high feels like. And then on day four, the euphoria, the like, I mean, euphoria of like doing a drug recreationally, basically disappeared.

1:16:19And then when I went to stream and stuff, I noticed that I could pay attention to what I was doing without having to have a game going on in the background, which was a really huge departure, because if you've ever watched any old videos, you might always like playing Minecraft, playing video games, do something while watching a video, but I could just sit and like read stuff. And then I noticed over the next week that it was like, holy shit, I had a restart for like four hours a day. I could just sit and read and read and read and I'm retaining the information and I don't feel like I have to do a million other things.

1:16:41And that's basically after that. I was like, fuck it. I went to a therapist very easily. I could get a HD diagnosis because of my childhood stuff and then I got a prescription for vivants and yeah, I don't think vivants is It's a it's an emphetamine similar to Adderall. Okay, but more powerful bit less powerful bit more something else Adderall is a combination of four different amphetamine salts Vivants is one of those amphetamine salts, but it's got an attachment of another molecule that makes you digest it slowly So that it like is an extended release amphetamine basically It's a list extra emphetamine or list extra emphetamine.

1:17:14It's a lysine attachment to a dextremephetamine thing. And then when you eat it, your body, I think the liver pulls off the lysine thing and then you get the slower release. It's like a time release version. Yeah. And if there's something that you presumably had done your research to work out what it was that you would have preferred to have had? The other, basically the other option is Adderall, XR, basically I think. Yeah. But yeah, for the past four or five months, I've learned like the entire history of Israel Palestine. I've read like 100 page papers are like legal theory for my debate with the green wall I'm able to research and retain information and be interested and I haven't played like basically a single game in like almost half a year in like four or five months It has dramatically changed my engagement with the world in like an unbelievable way.

1:17:55So James my business partner in the tonic had a adult Diagnosis ADHD as well and what does that do? You know, you're a person who thinks that you know who you are. You've been you for like fucking 35 years or some shit. Like, you thought that you knew the landscape of your own mind, who you were. And this is me, Steven, out in the world. And then someone comes along and kind of says, well, this is a part of you that you haven't been able to fully understand. Does that change your sense of self? I think that my whole life, and I think this probably happens as everybody gets older. I'm sure it's happened to you.

1:18:34The smartest age that you ever are is 19, because you know everything. You know what? If I've always joked that like if I go back, maybe even with you I said this, if I could go back in time and talk to myself, I wouldn't believe anything I'd have to say. Even if I knew I was coming from the future, yeah, because at 19, 20, you know everything. One of the things I've learned is I've got an older is subjective experiences are very, very hard to understand. So I try to be really careful when I speak about other people's subjective experiences and your mind and how you relate to the world is another one of those subjective experiences.

1:18:59So I guess in my mind, and it's funny, because I came across a lot with ADHD stuff. That ADHD can be simultaneously like overdiagnosed and underdiagnosed at the same time to where if somebody's just like either lazy or has an attention problem or whatever the fuck, cause for a variety of reasons, they might get an ADHD diagnosis. But if somebody has ADHD, they might feel so like, my feelings are like, if I just focus, I know I can do this, I'm just a lazy fucking piece of shit. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to fucking just stay on task for three hours. Everybody can do this, there's no reason I can't do this, right?

1:19:31And my feeling is that I'm probably just more lazy than the average person, and so that's why. But then after doing a lot of reading and then taking a pill for a little bit, and I'm like, okay, well shit, I wonder if this is the ordinary mind or if this is more close to the subjective state of other people. Yeah, it just makes me... Because it changed your theory of mind about other people. Obviously, if you're lambasting yourself, basically saying, you should be more disciplined than this. You should be able to stay focused. Why can't you just do this thing without getting distracted every two minutes or without having to play a video game or without having to 3 video screens open at once You know that's an internal monologue that you've habituated.

1:20:08It's a very well -worn path I'm just fascinated by people that have like oh and now I have a very different story that I tell myself about Why I am the way and what that means and why that could be the way and yeah, it seems like a huge pivot But yeah, I mean, I just try to be open to everything. Maybe there's something that'll dramatically shake my subjective interpretation myself in the future, but I'd rather be more open to it than more close to it, because I want to feel like I'm making progress towards a better version of myself rather than like, well, I have figured it out when I'm 20 and now I'm not going to change my feelings at all.

1:20:43And I know there's a lot of things that I skew off the norm for. Like, I remember when I was like, 2021 -22, if you would ever come to me, no, it would have been like, from like 22 to 25, on stream, people would ask me questions like, oh, I've got a toxic relationship with my mom or dad, like what should I do? And my answer is always very simple. You just kind of might be like, never talk to me again, they're so easy. Why would you maintain toxic relationships with your parents? What is stupid thing to do? That's so dumb. But then as I've gotten older, I'm like, okay. Oh, people have feelings about their family and it's pretty obvious that most people's feelings are way off of where mine are.

1:21:11So it's pretty stupid of me to suggest something for other people and assume that it's the same thing for everybody. So I just try to be really aware of the different subjective experiences that people can have and that mine might change in the future too. because I don't want to get locked in on some dumb shit, yeah. Yes. I felt quite bad watching, I didn't reach out because there was enough people doing that already, but I felt quite bad watching the entire internet kind of scrutinize your relationship over the last few months. The divorce stuff, yeah. Yeah, man, like I know that you appear as like this sort of emotional punching bag, stoic fucking brick, well, everything is super transparent and everyone knows kind of everything that's going on and you have a capacity to be able to deal with just comfort, this seems to be like, I know, beyond the certainly outside of the norm.

1:21:55But that made me feel uncomfortable, like watching everybody else dissect your fucking, like this intimate part of a downfall of a relationship online. So I imagine that rolled in with a fucking ADHD diagnosis, plus changing the chemical structure of your mind. Like that's what I mean, like the last 12 months. Oh, it was a lot for sure. I remember that I was. Yes, it was a lot. I scaled back on my last prescription request. I scaled back a little bit of my dose of my viavance because I noticed that my, because I wear these stupid little things to track like through my gem stuff, my heart rate, my resting heart rate had risen like 17 beats per minute.

1:22:27That's a lot. In like two months. That's a lot. And in the research that I did, I think that the average heart rate elevation for somebody on amphetamines, I think was 4 .9 beats per minute over a whole lifetime of like doing these amphetamines. So, a reminder, I've risen almost 20 in two months. I'm like, holy shit. My something's going on. Something is exploding. And I don't even know if there's a possible medication, but now it's all settled. And I realized it was probably just that period of like a lot of like stress that I'm dealing with from my own relationships, from like the public stuff, and you've got to keep streaming through everything, and then like the research from I did based everything, yeah, there's a lot to deal with, but yeah, it was definitely physiologically, it was definitely tough, but I've always felt like I have the tools to deal with everything.

1:23:05And in some ways, there are parts of my life that look incredibly difficult, that actually make things so much easier for me. I talked with Lex, I've talked with a lot of people that are more behind the scenes about this, because a lot of people look at my life and they're like, it's got to be so fucking hard to have your relationship and everything else like out front and center for all these people to dissect. And my thought is it's gotta be so fucking hard to try to keep that secret. Oh my God. Because if you try to keep things secret, it's gotta be so scary every day on the internet, something might get leaked, somebody might find something out.

1:23:34And now you've got to like try to figure out like, how do I defend this without revealing too much? And what do I say? And what else is going to leak and blah, blah, blah. For me, there is the added stress of when everything's public, everybody can comment on it. But it's also like, this is it. There's no way to hide. It's nothing. Yeah. And also you see what you get. There's never been a time in my 15 years where something is leaked of me. Where they're like, oh my God, that's the real destiny. He does this behind closed seats. That's what's going, this never happened. Basically you get what you see.

1:23:57Which in some ways makes things easier for me a lot. Yeah, will you do the same thing when next relationship rolls around? Or have you got a, like, maybe we don't need to go quite some public with stuff. Have you got a strategy for that? I think now I'm being really, really, really critical of who I would select next. I've got a whole list of criteria that I'm like writing down and evaluating for people because I'm trying to figure out what works, what doesn't. I've got my exes on this list of criteria because I'm like, what would've worked, what didn't work, blah, blah, blah. I don't know if I'll ever be dating again or if I'll get married or what that looks like just because my life is so crazy.

1:24:29If I do do another relationship, it would probably be another open one. If I do do another relationship, it's probably gonna end because most relationships too. And when it does, everybody, if the Red Pill Service Pover will say, we'll let ended because it's an open relationship despite the fact that I had four monogamous relationships for this that all ended for a variety of reasons. but yeah, I mean, we'll see if I dare not again, we just depends, but my life is like really crazy, really busy, and it's hard to slot anything in there, yeah. Yes, yeah, not dating again is a, I don't know, like, I wonder what will happen when you're further outside of the blast radius of your most recent, like, fucking slow motion, car crash, public car crash thing.

1:25:05It's just, it's a lot for the other person to deal with. That's the issue. So you have to find somebody that is willing to deal with all the public stuff, probably somebody that works in content creation, because otherwise it's hard to explain this world to like a normal human being. Allow me to step you into this world that you didn't choose, that you don't really understand. And how do I make you understand why there's like a whole form of people that obsess over every time you turn your discord on or off or people that try to figure out like what are addresses or why people say, I'm a pedophile or why, you know, this guy, you know, why is it today that Muslims are trying to find your address to go and jihad you and like it's, That's a lot for an ordinary person to be brought in.

1:25:41I think that is a lot for an ordinary person to be brought into. Yeah. Speaking of that, it's assumed I know nothing about the Vosh scenario, because essentially I don't, but I know that there's been stuff that you've been at least commenting on. What's the 30 ,000 foot view of the last few weeks? I hate being charitable to him at all. What's happened is Vosh has made a collection of fairly edgy statements in his past that on their own are all, I would say, probably defensible, but taken collectively against people that don't like him can present a very compelling narrative that he's like a pedophile basically.

1:26:24So like, I think for instance, there was like an argument before relating to why he didn't on he was, I wish I could remember, I don't want to miss call this because it's so important to get the exact wording right. So I could be a misscoding, you can go find the video if you want, but I think he was in an argument where he was like, it was something like, in a very edgy way, he's like, I don't know why people care so much about child porn because of the harm created to children, but we're okay buying and having things every single day that are made by children and sweatshops where they kill themselves.

1:26:46But then people will hear something like, oh wait, so you want to make child porn legal, but his argument was really, well no, we should probably make sweatshops illegal. But it's just like a bunch of stuff like that that's piled up over time. And then, so that's like the factual foundation. And then the rhetorical foundation or the content direction foundation is Vosha's very intentionally isolated himself from the rest of the world, and he can duck himself in an incredibly aggressive, bullying way. So he doesn't really have anybody in his corner to defend him or to lend him any credibility because he's made enemies of anybody that would be friends with him.

1:27:20And he's been incredibly uncharitable to everybody else in his part of the world. So he's done it to himself. So I don't feel very much sympathy. I might feel sympathy over the hyperbolic statements that get blown up because I've made a lot of statements that are hyperbolic that get blown up. But I don't feel sympathetic that this is what he has to go right now because he's yeah he says completely untrue, factually untrue things about me all the fucking time. And now watching it come back to by him and the ass and having nobody in his corner to defend it is really funny stuff. Sure, for it. Exactly, yeah.

1:27:44It doesn't surprise me, or at least I certainly see looking at the world of streaming. You guys put an awful lot of hours in, you know, that in itself just practically gets you out of the way of being able to spend time socially, just doing stuff. And then because so much of it is on its own, you do stream with other people sometimes, right? Or maybe even like a good bit of the time. But so many streamers are just spending hours and hours and hours and hours just them and a camera and a screen. And it seems like of all of the different content creation methods, it's the one that is the most isolationist.

1:28:21Like it's that. And then only worse than that of those people that try and like rebuild ghost towns, like in fucking Greenland or something like that. Those are the two that are the worst. So yeah, I mean, I have a great degree of sympathy for streamers overall because it's a rough job. Not as much as to say it's a harder job than like being a bricklayer. Retail, yeah. Rosy Retail? I don't know, you're talking about her son, right? Yeah. Not that hard. That's another funny example where I actually, and I've given the same thing to pass, her son was 100 % correct in his assessment and his statement.

1:28:55He just said it in a kind of a bad way, but he doesn't have anybody to defend him either. And it's funny because he blamed my community completely for that clip blowing up. But I'm willing to bet that you would agree with the entire context of the statement and that what we do for work right now in ways it can be more sold to stronger, it can be more difficult than jobs that work prior to this, just because of all the added stressors and all the added things that are going on. But you're compensated generously for it, and you have a greater degree of autonomy. You chose it. Exactly, yeah. And that's always the big difference.

1:29:20Like a McDonald's worker in a second would step into my life. I would never step back into working at McDonald's ever. So even if there are more challenges and more sold to string aspects of this job, which there are, if I got divorces in McDonald's worker, I don't have to deal with, you know, 75 -year -old fucking Rolo Tomassi, you know, making arguments about why this McDonald's worker broke up, like, I don't have to deal with that. I don't have to worry about like, fucking nude pictures leaking or everybody having an opinion on some shit I said, but I make 100 times the money that I did when I worked at fucking McDonald's and I get to choose every part of my life on one occasion.

1:29:48So yeah, so it's not, did have a point, but man, for him, the socialist guy that lives in a $4 million mansion and it was a $250 ,000 Porsche, and flies in private jets, and where $1 ,000 outfits, it sounds horrible coming from him. Optics are a big deal. And fuck him. I'm not defending him because yeah, that was his fault. I could have been a big defender of him on that. Because I love defending takes like that because they're technically correct, but they're optically horrible. And those are my favorite things to defend, you know? Yeah, dude, I, you know, I did a video which is still up on the channel.

1:30:16I think something like what no one tells you about working for yourself. Oh, shit. Yes, that's the same. It's all of the thing. It's all at the points. If you are both the the organ grinder and the monkey, if you're both the task master and the worker. There is always in the back of your mind, is this the best thing that I could be doing with my time? So not only do you need to design what you have to do, you then need to discipline yourself to go and do it, and then you need to go and do it, and then you need to review and question whether or not that's the thing that you're supposed to do. And even when you're away on holiday, whatever that even means, there's always this degree of, I could be working a little bit more, and then work begins to bleed into leisure time.

1:30:51So there is this huge, big, long list. And someone brought it up on a Q &A a couple of weeks ago where they said Lots of people in the personal development finance space are disparaging about nine to five But I actually really love my nine to five and I feel a bit bad because I'm like a second -class citizen for liking this Like cut job type thing Why do you think people have such bad opinions about it? And I was like that's a first off great point secondly It made me realize I've never disparaged nine to five so I'm like look if you can find a way to be able to work for yourself I think it's a reliable route towards having a fun life that you're probably going to enjoy.

1:31:27But it's not the only route. I know tons of people that have nine to five, that are perfectly happy lives. And there are all of these other side effects that come along with it, like having to be the person that, when you're going to get up today, how long are you going to stream for? Or you choose. And if you don't stream for long enough, who says when enough is done, like what's the rules around this? How hard are you supposed to work? How well are you supposed to do? to all of that gets externalized when you go to job, which is liberating. And it's just, what's your personality? What's your predisposition?

1:31:57What do you want? People have an inability sometimes to just analyze the pros and cons things that to be fully good or fully bad. I don't know if this would be a huge point or a disagreement for us, but you do a lot of health and fitness stuff, right? Yeah, a position that I have relating to food is, I don't think there's no such thing as a good food or a bad food. Food's just do different things. If you've got a sugary calorie bar, or like a candy bar that's just like empty carbs or whatever, that's all it is, it's energy for the day, high in sugar, that's what is, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

1:32:25If you hit all your micros and macros for the day, but you need 400 more calories, if you want to eat a fucking kick -up bar, it works, right? There's no such thing as like a holy good food or a holy bad food, something super high in vitamins, whatever, it doesn't matter if you can't absorb it for whatever reason or if you're not deficient in it, like there's no fucking point, it is what it is, like understand the pros, understand the pros, exactly. And I think when it comes to like nine to fives or entrepreneurship, it's the same thing, or with like renting or buying a house. The pros and cons to both of these things, right?

1:32:50I'm a millionaire and I don't, well, I own a house when my kid and my kids want to live this irrelevant. I don't own a house personally. I live in apartments. I'm probably going to live in apartments for the next 10 years. I'm going to buy a house and settle down somewhere. But people would think that like once you got money, the most important thing is to buy a house because you don't want to set your money on fire. I'm not setting my money on fire when I'm in an apartment. Anywhere that I set my money on fire, when I go to a restaurant and buy food. Like, I'm literally paying for something that I'm going to shit out my toilet later, but that's not wasting my money.

1:33:16I'm getting a meal out of it. Standing with, I'm running an apartment. I'm not wasting my money. I'm paying for a place to sleep and live every day. There are super big pros to entrepreneurship if you got the mind for an entrepreneur. And I don't mean the mind like you're smart enough. I just mean the mind that like you until I'm self -direction. Cheesion with disposition. Yeah, you enjoy like the uncertainty, the ups and downs, and you can navigate. Riyati. Yeah, not everybody enjoys that. And nine to five. I've known people that have stepped into the entrepreneurship and then go back to the nine to five.

1:33:40I'm like, listen, I can fund all the hobbies and I want to do with my nine to five. And I don't have to worry about, you know, Where's my paycheck gonna come from? Is this gonna be a slow month for me? Yeah, so yeah, there's pros and cons to both, and the demonization of like nine to five and you're a fucking loser because you're not a rapper or because you're not a small business owner or because you're not a fucking superstar streamer, YouTubers like, no, fuck you. You can do whatever you want to. Yeah, figure out what works that the pros and cons are for you. Yeah, I think that's good. And that's not something that I've heard a lot about.

1:34:09Like, you know, championing, it's part of this disparagement. I think that we're on the same page that you're relatively pro -college as well. I'm super pro -college, yeah. But if you think you've got a better path besides that, then yeah, by all means go for it. But for all these people, fuck. All these people will complain about the deep state, the politicians, the lobbyists, and the Bill Gates and blah, blah, blah. When you look at all these people that you think of rigged the world and they're corrupting everything blah, blah, blah, what do they send their kids? They're not, Bill Gates doesn't tell his children like, oh, you're 19, you're not going to call it.

1:34:40They all send them to fucking Ivy League schools. They all send them to the best schools. they get the best degrees, they all. It's supposed to be the most woke ones, they're the ones that'll be the most brainwashed. Maybe, I guess, but they're going to college. They're not telling you you would think that, well, if they'd figured it out. Well, you look at the Steve Jobs didn't give his kids iPads type argument, which is be aware of what the lifestyle's and technologies are of the people who are in power. And if the people who are in power are sending their kids to universities, like if you just want to model what they're doing, they've got skin in the game with regards to, Yeah, for me, I mean, you know, I don't disagree.

1:35:15I learned basically zero when I went to university, but I had great life experiences and it taught me an awful lot. It was like, it was like Navy SEAL Hell Week for five years of socialization. Sure. You know, you need to learn what it's like to get drunk and lose your keys in Manchester and have an argument with your friend at three in the morning. You need to learn what it's like to have an argument with a housemate where you can just request from the university that you move flats. Like that, all of those things, when you're gonna learn that, 25, 30, part of the transitioning into adulthood.

1:35:44Yes. So it just, I think it prepares people, and but I understand that, you know, it's all a big scam. No one learns anything that's important. And in an ideal world, yes, would higher education actually educate you effectively, along with giving you the life skills? Probably. But of the two, they're like, I would give it 50, 50 for what you come in. Maybe even more on the life skills side of things to be able to, okay, well, what's it like to have your attendance be so low that maybe you're gonna get kicked out of university because that might happen with a job in a couple of years time when your ill or some other like administrative fuckery happens is that the first time that you're gonna ever encounter something like this?

1:36:24No, like you can get to do it with lower stakes and move through that stuff. So yeah, I, and people have this weird thing with it like, well, it's just people should be wasting their time on humanities and English degrees and it's like the majority of degrees people get from colleges are STEM degrees. I did business. and marketing and I've got two degrees, one of which is a master's. I can't remember anything from either of them. Like I might as well have done women's studies. Yeah, or all the people, I think it's like, I honestly, like 50 % of people get STEM degrees anyway. Like they probably needed it.

1:36:51If you want to be, I think it's a really high percentage. Yeah, somebody go look it up, you've got the fucking eye pattern. Yeah, it's stuck connected to the internet. Oh my God, yeah. But it's a really high percentage. I think it might have been over a majority of the degrees are STEM related degrees anyway. Like that's the vast majority of people go to school for are that. But I think people have this impression like 85 % of college students are humanities do it Taylor Swift degrees. Yeah, basically. Yeah, yeah And then also to and again a moderated position like there are ways to do it intelligently like people say Oh, I don't want to go to college get a hundred thousand dollars in debt.

1:37:19You don't have to get a hundred thousand That's not the average student loan debt is on a hundred thousand dollars I mean it's like like twenty eight thousand dollars or something It's not a hundred thousand dollars also if you want to go to community college for two years or do this or whatever like there Are ways to make it more manageable as well? You know you can be smart about you don't have to go all in and be an idiot it. It's just the, my, the scary thing for me, heavily anecdotal, by the way, the scariest thing for me is that when people say, forget college, don't do that. And my mind, the people that don't need to go to college know that there isn't a guy who's got this huge portfolio of projects that he's worked on that's got like all this knowledge who's 18 and he's like, God, fuck, do I need to go and get a comp side degree and blah, blah, he knows what he's going to do, you know, people point to Bill Gates is like, oh, well, Bill Gates Bill Gates didn't go to college.

1:38:04Bill Gates didn't fail remedial English. Bill Gates didn't not go to college because he couldn't get his fucking GED. Bill Gates didn't not go to college because he thought he was gonna make a big trading fucking crypto. That's not, these are not the same comparisons. If you don't know what you're gonna do and you've got a general, yeah, go to college, get your degree, do that. But don't tell people, don't go to college. The universe has something grand planned for you because most of these people are gonna fuck around with drop shipping on the internet for a year and a half, hook up with a chick and get her pregnant and then the rest of their life is gonna be retail or service, starting at 21, because they just didn't really have strong direction.

1:38:38That's not liberation. Yeah. What do you think is gonna happen in November? Election time. I, my belief for a while has been that I think that Biden is gonna win. I think he's gonna win pretty handily. Uh, my feeling for that is because I think the biggest thing that was going to hurt him was gonna be the economy, but I think that the sentiment on that has already adjusted pretty heavily, and I don't see it going down. I think that we're on a huge upshute right now economically. And the Fed isn't even talking about considering dropping rates or whatever. So if the economy's fine, foreign policy wise, it's just Ukraine and Israel.

1:39:11It's funny, people give Biden a lot of shit on foreign policy. But if you compare our foreign policy aims right now compared to what they were under Trump, our involvement is way better. I think that Israel and Palestine, that's a worthy thing to be involved in. If for no other reason than to restrain Israel, and Ukraine, Russia, that's a worthy thing to be involved in. We're not in Afghanistan anymore. We're not in Iraq anymore. Biden ended the participation in the Saudi -led coalition to go and fucking drone strike Yemen all the time. The strikes that we are doing in Yemen are very specifically on missiles blowing about.

1:39:40So that's good. I think that the foreign policy stuff is good. Even if people try to make it into a thing. I think domestically, I think our economy is good. The border is an issue. It always is an issue. But I don't think Republicans can yank the illegal immigrant chain for seven months or whatever. I think that they probably pull that one too early. So I just basically broadly speaking, I think the road to the elections and all of the special elections that have gone on over the past couple years have been really good for Democrats. So I think the road forward for Biden is pretty safe. As long as he doesn't, his brain doesn't really get up as he is.

1:40:11I think it's pretty safe. That's a big if. That's a big if. For Donald Trump though, he's got all of these indictments. He's got the New York case that is, I think they're trying to start that one in March. What's that? The New York case is where he was making, he was getting Cohen to make payments to storm Amy Daniels, the Hush Payments basically, which just kind of looks bad, the porn star fucking Cheyenne and his wife and all that. So you've got like all the news of the indictment stuff. You've got whatever crazy shit that Trump says abortion is still really fresh on people's minds and now you're getting more stories about like crazy log.

1:40:41Still fresh on people's minds. I think so, yeah. I'm basing this on opinion polling and I was with my community doing door knocking in Ohio for like get out the vote stuff and as you go around and I always try to do at least one day so that I can like have the experience and talk to people. I was really surprised at how many people when I knocked on doors, there are the two issues that everybody always brought up were protecting democracy, which seems like shit I would hear on Twitter, and the second one was abortion. Everybody. What sort of people is this a broad cross -section, older people, younger people?

1:41:10Yeah, it's older people. You're knocking on doors in Cincinnati, Ohio, of like likely registered voters basically, making sure that they're still registered to vote, and they know about the upcoming primaries and elections. So I think abortion is going to be a big driver. I don't think like the Afghanistan pull out. I don't think that's going to be a big negative driver. I think it happened and then whatever. Yeah. That's my broad view. I think the road ahead for Biden is pretty easy as long as he maintains. Okay. And I think the road ahead for Trump, I don't see it getting better because he's not in office.

1:41:37There's no way that he can do anything good. And there's a lot of potential pitfalls coming up that could be really scary. Yeah. How big of a deal do you think what's going on at the border is? I've had a number of conversations about this, it does seem like a really big catastrophe. I mean, it always does. Like Republicans don't feel like it's a big catastrophe. It's always a big earthquake. If you had to look at the stats around this, like you tend to have some... Yeah, I've seen numbers. It's hard to know because like they always change like how they count some things. Like I think under the Obama administration, like they were changing how they consider like a deportation ended up being like somebody that was met at the border and turned away.

1:42:15There's like, there's weird things that go on with the numbers all the time. I agree that the border is a problem, but I don't believe that it's like a uniquely felt problem that's having a drastically negative impact on the average of our entire life. I don't think that that's happening. So it's a problem because the media says it's a problem and because people want it to be a problem, the Republicans do. For a good reason, because it probably is a strong thing to have it electorally, but it only leaves countries falling apart or like crazy shit is happening because of stuck going out of the border.

1:42:40But Democrats do need to find a way to deal with it, although right now, the things that suck is that one, Donald Trump had COVID, which helped a lot because he was able to do, was a title 42, title 49 that basically said, because we're in a state of emergency, I can enact crazy measures at the border and people just run illegal immigrants much because of COVID. So he had a huge benefit to his last time in office because of COVID. And then when Biden came in, he was, because he got COVID. No, no, because because of COVID, it's dramatically. Because he got, I was like, it's like you being ill as the president, and unlock some super secret.

1:43:12He got the COVID event, basically. Right, okay. Oh, right, yes. Biden tried to use Title 49 to control border stuff, but he wasn't able to. And then the amount of people coming to the border now is a lot higher. As a percentage of like turnaways and everything, the Biden administration is doing better than the Trump administration, but there's such a greater number of people there to deal with, it's just a difficult problem. Apparently, that is the rumors that I've heard because they know that Biden is going to be soft on them. People say that, and I'm curious where the truth is in that. People say so it is true that more illegal immigrants come to the border when a Democrat is in office.

1:43:44But I'm curious, is it because Democrats want to let them in or is it because Republicans say that Democrats will let them in? Because remember, Pamela Harris's favorite thing of like, do not come. Do not come. One thing to the immigrants, do not come. That was a funny meme of hers. Yeah, of her saying that. And it's not like they don't let you in just because it's a Democrat in office. I don't think there's a meaningful change in border policy with a with a demon office over Republican. But if you say it enough, I don't know. or maybe that's why people do come in, yeah. Right, okay, so this is like the shadows on the wall, but the shadows have been created by the Republicans.

1:44:13So the Republicans could be advertising the weakness of democratic immigration policy. And that is what he's being taken by people. Which were the most part is about the same under Biden as it was for Trump. They ended like certain types of like family separation at borders, but nothing, I don't think anything meaningful has changed between Trump and Biden. But so I'm curious, like I haven't seen statements, and I'll fully admit, because I've been doing his repalals and stuff and then the rebels are over there. So I haven't followed this issue as closely, but I haven't seen a bunch of statements from Democratic lawmakers who are like, we want the immigrants to come to the border.

1:44:43Please come or like illegal, we're gonna be softer and then we're gonna do something to let these immigrants in or blah, blah, blah. I've never heard that. I've heard a lot of Republicans saying that though. So I'm curious like what the statements they hear are. That's very interesting. Yeah, the difference between being like effective in terms of rhetoric and effective in terms of the impact that actually has on the world because it could be creating the second one while it's trying to achieve the first one. Yeah, I mean, every election cycle, there's been something that's been timed quite well, you know, emails for Hillary, the Biden, under Biden laptop story.

1:45:16I'm kind of waiting for a thing. Oh, dude, there is going to be a thing that has to be. It's like, I don't know, do you remember when the last TV show you ever watched that? I remember last time I ever watched it. Well, just, you know, you always knew that the season finale was going to finish on a cliffhanger. Oh my god, what the cliffhanger going to be. And it feels like that now. But this is the problem, blurring the line between entertainment and politics. I shouldn't be waiting for the next election cycle to come around and for whatever the revelatory story is, like I'm about to see prison break season three finish.

1:45:52It should be treated with a little bit more, like seriousness. Well, I think the issue is both of these guys have been investigated quite a bit. And by both of these guys, I mean, Hunter Biden and Donald Trump. So I don't know if anything new, it doesn't seem like we're getting much new about Hunter. I might have dried the well on both sides. Well, but the problem is on the Hunter Biden side, I think that's probably true, because especially now that this confidential informant was heavily compromised. I don't think that it would be just Hunter Biden. I think that there will be something. Oh no, what I'm saying is in terms of what could leak.

1:46:24I feel like for a lot of Hunter Biden stuff, we've milked this cow. Yes. But the problem is for Trump, we potentially have new wells of information because of the ongoing court cases. That gives you a novel ability to reach in through investigative power, through discovery, through criminal indictment, through trial, to reveal stuff that's never been revealed before. Is it statement of some kind? Is it court recording? Is it whatever? Like for the J6 commission, a lot of the people near Trump pleaded, I've played executive privilege. I don't have to say what I said because this is to the president of the United States, which works in front of a congressional committee doesn't work in front of a criminal proceeding.

1:47:00So, it's like pleading kind of like pleading the fifth, but it's special. Yeah, for the president. Yeah, but that didn't work in a lot of the, like the Jack Smith federal investigation cases. So it could be that there's more stuff that could come out, or as a stuff is continually brought to the forefront of American minds, they have like a slightly less favorable view of Donald Trump, because I do find, for instance, for a lot of the Donald Trump cases, when a lot of Republicans, all even Democrats just don't know any of the facts. And when you present a lot of the facts, they're indefensible.

1:47:26It's not even close. It's like unhinged and sainz shit. So I don't know how much that'll affect things, but also Democrats have been yanking on the, you know, Donald Trump is doing illegal stuff and we're gonna get him chain for four years and it didn't seem like much came out of that or for eight years, I guess. Yeah. So who knows? I know. I bet that's $1 ,000 on Biden. We'll see what happens. Okay, I bet money on it. I believe strong, man. What do you think about Vivek from a swanie? What's the real thing? The Trump clone guy that dropped out because he realized he has no political future because he just served there to, yeah, be a Trump clone, pick up some popularity, write a book.

1:47:59Yeah, I don't know if you want to. Him. Yeah. That's what you think about him. As I don't. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well, it was an interesting one. I think, uh, someone that's young, just generally young, at all, that's involved in American politics, just stands out. Yeah, young is cool, but he talks like a salesman. I feel like every time he was talking, he was hearing a pitch for like a new Dyson vacuum cleaner. Well, there's a degree of that no matter what industry, or whether it's in content creation or politics or media or anything, there is a swing at the moment toward as much authenticity, as much relatability as possible.

1:48:35I guess that goes back into what you were saying about openness and honesty around relationships and dating and fucking an adult ADHD diagnosis. All of these different things, just being open and honest about them, allow people to find areas of your story or anybody's story to hook into and go, oh, that's kind of like me or that's like my sister or that's like my best friend or that's like my whatever. And people had a problem with the rocks appearance on Rogan because they said it was, he kind of seemed very curated and it was super, super smooth and all of this. And what they wanted was, you know, who's the man behind all of that?

1:49:14Yeah, precisely. I want to speak to Dwayne. I don't want to speak to the rock. Yeah. And I think people felt like they didn't really necessarily get that. And then I think that Tucker Carlson and Putin, that interview was just like the same thing. It was like we got a very well curated orchestra, like curated performance by Putin. And we didn't really get to see anything that was real there. Yeah, one issue that I have with people is somebody being genuine is not necessarily a good character trait and people overrate that too much. Also, people can be genuine and be a bad person, a genuinely bad person.

1:49:54But people will give a lot of people credit just because they're genuine. It's like, okay, sure. This person might be genuine, but that doesn't necessarily a good thing or necessarily bad thing. They could just be really bad. They could be a genuinely bad person. It reminds me of, for a lot of debates that I do, I gotta hate this. I hate this. It's gonna happen under this fucking video. No, not as much as we're gonna disagree as much. When I debate people that I disagree with, I'm very rhetorically careful about how I present myself. I don't wanna come off as too argumentative or too destructive to the conversation.

1:50:21I wanna be constructive. I wanna be somewhat agreeable so I'm finding common ground. But you bigwitously under every single one of these videos, this is such a great conversation. I love that two people are talking and they're not shouting each other and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, that is true, but like comment on the conversation now, okay? Just because we're talking and we're being agreeable doesn't mean it's necessarily a good conversation. That's a good first hurdle to get over. But now talk, like evaluate the conversation itself. Yeah, and I find like that happens, that same thing happens with the genuine part of like, oh, I like this guy because he's genuine.

1:50:50He's like, yeah, genuinely evil, genuinely an asshole. Like that's not a, yeah, it reminds me, I'm sorry, fuck there's so many examples. Have you ever met a person in real life, big red flag, by the way, if you have ever met a person in real life and you're like, oh, why don't people like you? What's going on? I'm just too honest. No, it's not that you're too honest. See, you're an asshole. Yeah, yes, I remember when I was in school, there was kids that would misbehave or whatever, and there would be extra dispensation given by the teachers to the kids that were naughty. There were the ones that were always disrupting class or weren't handing homework in, I weren't doing whatever, and then me is one of the nerds.

1:51:28I would be held to a higher standard. that if I misbehaved in class, I would feel like I got picked out by the teacher and told like that I shouldn't be doing whatever. I'm like, I'm gonna second. He just like fucking like kicked a bin over and you didn't, you just sort of went over and like quietly told them to do that. And I always used to feel, it always used to feel unfair that like the people that were able to behave were held to a higher standard than the people who weren't able to behave. And I guess it's kind of like this. It's like like you can be yourself, but if yourself is being an asshole, then it doesn't make you more virtuous.

1:52:00That being said, is it better for somebody to be a genuine asshole than a lying virtuous individual? Yeah, I guess it just depends on what the lying thing means. And that's a really hard thing personally to start through for an individual. And it's a hard thing to sort through and how you evaluate other people. So, like for instance, let's say that I'm meaning a girlfriend's family, okay? I'm not going to that dinner as destiny, okay? I'm not gonna be making edgy jokes about how much money would you accept to fuck a dog, you know, every single night if you were getting paid money, that's not gonna come up in that family conversation, okay?

1:52:35I'm gonna be respectful, I'm gonna ask questions about the family's job, I'm gonna be like, on my best behavior, am I being a fake fuck by doing that? Am I being disingenuous? I wouldn't say so. I think that you wear different hats, depending on what you're talking to. The issue comes from, are you communicating things that don't comport with your core values when you're talking to somebody else, right? So if I, if my, you know, if I always meet a girl's parents and they were racist and they asked me like you agree that like black people are lazy And I was like, yeah, I guess they are that's a problem right assuming that you don't actually think that because now you're violating core principles core values I find that a lot of the time when people are criticizing people for being not genuine It's just because they they're like wearing a different hat not necessarily because they're like lying or or misrepresenting themselves, but Yeah, that's a hard one to start through anyway because some people might think that they're lying and misrepresenting themselves It's not like we and our nature and the way that we present ourselves are transparent to ourselves either.

1:53:25Sure. A lot of the time we get skewed or manipulated just by the situation. Uh -huh. We just, I don't know, I got caught up. I was talking to such and such a person and I was tired or I wanted them to like me or whatever. I didn't mean to say X, Y, as that. But this is kind of going back to what you said at the very beginning, which is like giving people a little bit more grace, like hoping, hoping for the best in people and believing like, Look, I think that if I was you, I would act the way that you are. I don't think that most people are evil. I think that they're trying to do good. Just starting from a place of more gentleness, I suppose, and a little bit more gentle, Steven.

1:54:05A little bit more room, giving people a little bit more room and hoping that they can come along for the ride. That seems like a much easier way, a much nicer way to live life. It can be, yeah, but it's not so much fun to watch. No, it's because the eyes are so... That's why I say it's people's fault sometimes because of the type of content that they consume. That's the direction that the content has. We're not in this media landscape because the Jews pushed us here or because there was an alt -right conspiracy or because the woke turds got us here. We have the media landscape we do today because it's what we enjoy watching.

1:54:33And we definitely were worth it. We're still lagging. Yeah, we put a clip up from the Pears Morgan interview and it was a clashing with Pears Morgan over alcohol and going sober. He said that sometimes people that go sober can be boring. I said that that assumes that people who drink are interesting and we went back and forth and there was a bunch of comments. Hey, I'm sorry, hold on. He made the argument that alcoholics that get sober could be boring? Not necessarily alcoholics, but that I was saying I went sober for a good chunk of my 20s and found it was good for not being hung over once every week or once every two weeks.

1:55:04So I got more productive and made changes in my life and like yay, sobriety, even though I didn't drink that much. And he said, well, do you not find that if you do that, you just can be around people that are boring and I was like, that assumes that people who drink are interesting. So we had a little bit of a back and forth on that, and then he'd grown up in a pub, and he said, like, I've seen that it helps people to come out of their skin, and you know some people are a little bit socially anxious, and so on and so forth. And I was like, well, that also kind of shows that the people that you're around, the friends that you're around, you need to sedate yourself in order to be yourself with them.

1:55:32So you need to find better friends. The issue isn't that you need alcohol. It's that you need friends that can help you to be yourself around them. And I don't think that alcohol... I think alcohol's actually masking a lot of those problems. and many people haven't not had a drink, especially in the UK, like classic working -class culture, haven't not had a drink since they were 15 or something. The longest time they went from when they first ever had one to now was two weeks, and they don't ever think, but they'll be concerned about whether or not a creatine or a ACEK or artificial sweetness or something, getting them, meanwhile they're putting like a reliable poison into themselves.

1:56:08And I love me some alcohol too, like I was a club promote of 15 years, I'm a part of it and just trying to thread that needle. Anyway, like we titled the episode is Clashing with Pears Morgan over, Algonne going sober or something. And like so many people that come and say, this wasn't a clash, where's the clashing? This isn't, I'm like, okay, fuck it. Debating Pears Morgan. But like you fuck it, like you clicked on it. Like you clicked on it. So what is it, what's the game that you want content creators to play? Like is it clickbait if your interpretation or the threshold that I have for clashing is this and the threshold that you meant for debating is that.

1:56:39It's like, and this would be the part to where I'm critical of audiences, but I don't know how much the culture can change there. This is the part where I would shift my critical to, then, to content creators. And I think the left is at a huge problem with this for a long time. I think the left for a long time assumed that you just can't defend left leaning ideas because right leaning ideas are too easy. Like it's easier to just say, like, affirmative action bad because it's racist versus, well, how do you defend affirmative action? But I think that something way different has happened. I think that people on the right have spent a really good chunk of time figuring out how make their ideas entertaining and fun and funny.

1:57:11And people on the left just assumed that, well, we're right, and it's difficult. So fuck you, you either get it or you don't. And I'm not gonna sit here and educate one. It's quite an elitist. It was very, very, very elitist. So I think as a content creator, you have a responsibility to two different things. You do have a responsibility to be factually correct and to not spread misinformation. I think you also do have a responsibility to be entertaining and funny. For all the theories on Trump, I have one bullshit theory that I genuinely believe that a huge chunk, I'm gonna say 45 % of Trump's success goes back to all the way back to the Red Pill Stop, the game, I think he's a really funny guy.

1:57:48And I think that carries him really far. More than being genuine, more than whatever, I get it from. Yeah, the fact that when he goes on stage and he starts talking, he's funny, he can work a crowd really well. A lot of people knew him from the apprentice where he was like almost universally liked and pretty sure those were popular reality TV shows and the apprentice and everything, he's a funny dude. His tweets were fucking hilarious, whether you were on the left or the right. And I think that actually goes really, really, really, really, really far. And it plugs into something that I thought funnily enough, because people always bring up like, you know, like, well, what was it like for you in high school?

1:58:18Because you were short, you were on your way, you had bad acne. And my going through high school, I always just thought the fact that I'm funny makes everything work. I can literally talk to I had huge groups of friends from different areas. I had no problem talking to girls. I didn't even know that 5, 7, or 5, 8 washort for a guy. I didn't even think about that. Because I'm gonna make somebody laugh, like, I'm good to go. And I think it is true for Donald Trump that a huge part of his success is just the fact that he's funny and people will watch him for that. Riz and Charm are massively underpriced by most people.

1:58:44Because most of the time on the internet, at least with the like performative autism himmetically sealed box that almost everybody exists in, especially the terminally online people, it's never actually humor. They're not playing with wit and charm and interpersonal flow. So what they're doing is trying to find some cutting sardonic, like weird donk take, which isn't the same. That doesn't come, if you say that in person, in an interview or to a friend or on a debate, it sounds petty and it sounds, it usually sounds quite demeaning and it doesn't say, whereas Douglas Murray against Malcolm Gladwell, when they were debating about his independent media more important or better than mainstream media or whatever it might be.

1:59:25and Douglas got like three laps, big, relatively big laps, throughout the entirety of the conversation. So guess what, he won. Like he won in the hearts and minds of so many people and the same thing goes for this. This is what Sam Harris said. If you do a debate and you get between two and three absolute zingers where most of the room laughs, it's really hard to have lost that debate unless you've been absolutely side -swiped by all of the facts and everything else and you've looked like an idiot outside of that. People like charm. Yeah, and people will act like people will say things like, oh, like that's why debate is fake because people just go by who they'd like more and blah, blah, blah.

1:59:59I'm sorry, but that is every single facet of your life, every single facet of your life is going to be influenced heavily by how other people view you and how social you are with other people, whether it's for promotions at work or job performance, whether it's relationships with professors in college, whether it's politics, how well people like you, whether it's is a content creator. Getting moved to the front. Getting moved to the front of the group of a table wait list at a restaurant. Yeah, whether it's how you relate to a significant other. How many autistic guys or girls, if you heard say something, like, I don't know why they're so fucking mad.

2:00:31I was 100 % correct. That doesn't fucking matter. You think that matters? Yeah, I know there's better than anybody. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't fucking matter. How right you are in the conversation. People are like, oh, you don't care what I'm saying. You just care about how I say it. Yeah, no shit they care about how you say it. There's a big difference between, hey, I'm really worried about you. You're getting a little bit of late. Wait, like let's do something like work out or eat better versus saying like you're a fat fucking piece of shit And if you don't lose fucking weight, I'm gonna divorce you, right?

2:00:53Those are two you might be communicating factually a similar thing But the delivery is instead is incredibly important and the dumbest thing about this is people fucking know this people know This is important because you know that the way that somebody communicates with you is gonna influence how you perceive the message And how you take it and you're gonna get irritated when people are short or snarkier. Yes, you're Desire for other people to ignore that doesn't extend to your enjoyment of other people being humor like a full of humor and funny. Like you are more than happy to be charmed by that guy or that girl that does that thing and you're like, I really don't agree with most of what that particular content creator says, but does something about the way that they communicate?

2:01:30I really love the fact that Matt Walsh is dry and sardonic. I really love the fact that Destiny makes retard jokes. I really love the fact that X, Y, Z. Those things just cut through an awful lot of the biases and the pre -spares. And meanwhile, you're saying to the world, no, no, no, you shouldn't give privilege to people that are entertaining and funny. You can't get to have it both ways. And so many, yeah, I think. John Stewart wasn't the smartest person in media when he did the daily show, however many 20 years ago or whatever. He was really funny. He was really entertaining. That's not good TV now.

2:02:02He's running it back. He's thinking, I don't know how funny he is now. I'm not sure. I just haven't watched as much. I saw one little bit of a monologue. It was him offering that black justice lady. Is it like a black, is it like a black lady? Is she on the Supreme Court or is it a guy? Oh my god. Oh, your time at Clarem's time, I said yes. Was that the Daily Show? I thought that was a Stephen Colbert, am I making that up? Oh, maybe. I can't remember who it was. Offering them. Oh, no, no, no, John Oliver, I think was the one. Thank you. Yes, British guy. Yes, offering them an RV and a million dollars if they were to step down as a Supreme Court dresser.

2:02:36It was funny. What's next? What you doing next? What's the focus? And two days I go to New York City to do that. Finkelstein debate, my conversation, I had a conversation with Jordan Peterson, I think two weeks ago, that'll probably get published sometime in the amount of time. Was that with him or the actual? No, it was with him. I went to DC, I think, for that. And then next month, I'm trying to find, because I started this five -ants, but past like four or five months on my stream, have been a very research driven. I've taken like more notes and studied it on this thing, probably more than I have cumulatively for everything else in my entire life.

2:03:08So I'm trying to next month figure out something a little bit more chill to do, something more bite -size, something more culturally relevant. So maybe it'll be research about the border or immigration or something, but something to keep my fanbase a little bit more engaged than me literally reading the end of books on stream and show. I hope that they weren't enjoying you playing Minecraft because that's gone out of the window. That's a fully put state of all of your gaming content as a gaming streamer by taking a drug. Yeah, but I think it's probably okay. I think people like the political stuff more that I'm more focused on.

2:03:35I just need to make sure it's like relevant and entertaining and not like hardcore deep dives on the history of like entire complex Yeah, how did you find Jordan? Into personally, I don't know how much time you get to spend with them and in terms of your debate and stuff Ann are personally he was fine ideologically he was about where I thought he would be which is kind of disappointing I was hoping I was surprised I have this theory that people get broken by events and then they never recover a really good example of this. Do you know who Brett Weinstein? Yes. I think is a perfect example of this.

2:04:07If you read the stuff that he was writing I'm talking about during the Evergreen college fiasco. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought that all of it was unbelievably reasonable. I thought he'd seem like a reasonable guy. Everything was like cool. But I think that event broke his mind over the wheel. And then now, he's on Joe Rogan saying, I think 13 million people have died probably from vaccines in the United States. I don't like it really. I think for Jordan Peterson, I think it was the C16 stuff that like the woke fighting or whatever, like people will have this moment where they fight against another side.

2:04:35And it's something of switch flips. And because they get attacked by this side so much, they become entrenched into the antithesis of that movement. And that's unfortunately, because I think, join a few distance a lot of, or had a lot of really insightful things to say about philosophy, not philosophy, I'm sorry, a little bit about philosophy, but mainly psychology that I really appreciate listening to. But now it's just like all the, I feel like I was talking to a random Trump voter. Like, I think I was trying to bring up the frustrating, I think I brought up this idea of the constellation of beliefs that people have and it was funny because I think in this interview that we do in like one minute when I bring up climate change He's brought up the WEF.

2:05:07I think like eating crickets like the everybody will be poor, but own or you won't own anything and you'll be happy and Depopulation and 20 % of Europe is dying because of the vaccine the all the overhead does because of like to try to and it's just like Yeah, when I see minds that it feels like they get captured because they become entrenched in the opposite of wherever bullied them last, that's just a great wasted potential for me. And I feel like he suffers from that quite a bit. I don't know whether those two guys have had that happen because of that situation, but I certainly know, last time that we were together, I told you about the PKate rule, which is that every content creator is best known for their most well -known transgression in their most recent one.

2:05:51So Jordan would be like he doesn't, he hates trans people and doesn't want to say their names and he calls Sports Illustrated Models Fat. Like Hassan would be, he said that Americans deserve 9 -11 and he thinks that being a streamer is harder than working in McDonald's or whatever. Like everybody, every creator is captured by the biggest thing that they did and the most recent thing that they did and that's definitely the way that they're interpreted and I can totally see. I even see this in myself man like you know there's been a big change in scrutiny and attention and stuff over the last year.

2:06:21And there's no media kit. There's no one throws a training manual at you to go, oh, and by the way, when you reach half a billion people a year, this is how you think about yourself or how you deal with attention, how you deal with criticism on the internet. And if you have a constitution like you, maybe that's something that is a little bit easier to do. But even for you, it must be like, oh, fucking hell, I like it. I feel that this ambient fucking vigilance of an awful lot of people. And then if you have all of the way down the spectrum to the person that's the most sensitive in the world, they're gonna really struggle with that.

2:06:51Even though that wasn't necessarily what they asked for, but they did ask for it because they decided to just do this thing and they keep going and then you accumulate this audience. All of that, I can completely see how one of the responses from people would be, all right, you've made me feel the world that I wanted to love me and validate me, jilted me, fuck you, I'm out, I'm never gonna listen to you again. and you're all shills, a part of the WEF, or you're all lib tards, or you're all like, well, whatever, like racist, transphobic, it's very easy to do that, because you never have to deal with the unrequited love thing again, ever.

2:07:35Yeah, it's just frustrating, because it's such a thought terminating view of the world, and then you end up losing your, you know, reasonable faculty to evaluate positions, and now you've just bought into the opposite of whatever the other side said, and it just feels, it's disappointing and dumb, I think. Yeah, human's humaning is inconvenient a lot of the time because there's other stuff that they could have done. Destiny dude, I appreciate you man. Good luck with all the debates. And I'm not sure the next time you come through Austin, but we'll have to do barbecue and a training session or whatever it is that you've got on.

2:08:03Sounds great. I look forward to it. We have the Lemo Emo in its natural habitat, helping people customize their core insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally Doug. Uh, Lemoo? Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need at LibertyMutual .com. Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and Affiliates Excludes Massachusetts.