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Podcast Episode Notes: #763 - Coleman Hughes - Bringing An End To Race Politics
Episode Summary In this episode of the Modern Wisdom podcast, host Chris Williamson engages with writer and podcaster Coleman Hughes on the current state of race relations in America. Coleman discusses the aggressive resurgence of race politics, exploring themes like colorblindness, the socio-economic focus over racial identity, the impact of the #MeToo movement, and the current implications of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) policies.
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Key Concepts Discussed
Colorblindness vs. Race Acknowledgment
- Colorblind Philosophy: Advocates for treating individuals without regard to race, focusing on personal attributes and socio-economic status instead.
- Critique of Anti-Racism: Coleman argues that contemporary anti-racism practices sometimes perpetuate neo-racism by emphasizing racial identity in discussions rather than recognizing individuality.
Socio-Economic Status Over Ethnicity
- Coleman suggests that social class should take precedence over race in public policy, reflecting on historical policies from the civil rights era that were class-based rather than race-based.
- Example: Martin Luther King Jr. advocated for an anti-poverty program to benefit the poor across racial lines.
The Shift in Racial Discourse
- Coleman reflects on a shift from colorblind ideology after the civil rights movement to a race-centered approach spurred by events like the 2020 protests following George Floyd's death.
- He highlights the media's role in shaping perceptions of race and racism, fueling a narrative that reinforces divisions.
Impacts of the #MeToo Movement
- Coleman discusses the unintended consequences of the #MeToo movement, noting a decline in professional collaboration opportunities for women due to fear of accusations and misunderstandings.
Affirmative Action and DEI Policies
- Coleman questions the efficacy of race-based policies, arguing that they often do more harm than good.
- He suggests that while inclusive practices are important, they should not enforce quotas or race-based hiring practices, as this may lead to reverse discrimination.
Historical Context and Revisionism
- Coleman criticizes the trend of revising American history to emphasize white supremacy while downplaying the complexities of historical narratives, including the roles of different races in slavery and oppression.
The Role of Elites vs. Non-Elites
- A distinction is made between elite circles, where race-centered philosophies are often embraced, and the general populace, who may experience the consequences of racial policies differently.
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Key Takeaways
- Importance of Colorblindness: Coleman advocates for a return to colorblind principles to create a more equitable society that focuses on individuals rather than racial identities.
- Socio-Economic Focus: Policies should target socio-economic disadvantages, providing support based on need rather than race.
- Media Influence: The media plays a significant role in shaping public perception of race relations, often amplifying outrage without adequate context or fact-checking.
- Cultural Shifts: The polarization of discussions around race and the stigmatization of dissenting opinions contribute to a culture of fear and self-censorship among individuals.
- Call to Action: Coleman encourages individuals to reflect on their beliefs and advocate for policies that promote equality without racial bias.
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Additional Resources
- Coleman Hughes' Book: "Bringing An End To Race Politics"
- Coleman Hughes' Podcast: "Conversations with Coleman"
- Follow Coleman Hughes on:
- [Substack](https://www.colemanhughes.com)
- [The Free Press](https://www.thefp.com)
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Conclusion This episode offers a critical examination of race politics in America, emphasizing the importance of colorblind policies and a focus on socio-economic factors. Coleman's insights challenge listeners to reconsider contemporary narratives around race and advocate for a more nuanced understanding of race relations.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00What do you think about the state of race in America now? What's your meteorological weather report? Yes, so you know the reason I wrote this book is that this idea of colorblindness which means you try to treat people without regard to race. I see obviously that you're a quote -unquote white guy, you see that I'm a quote -unquote black guy, but I'm going to treat you like Chris Williamson knowing everything I know about you as an individual, and I ask you to treat me like Coleman Hughes knowing everything you know about me. And we don't regard, we don't give weight to each other's races when we treat each other.
0:38And my book is advocating not just for that, but also advocating for getting race out of public policy. In America, we have all kinds of policies that use racial discrimination explicitly. And people have various reasons for this to fight racism, to combat the legacy of slavery, and so forth. And in my book, I want to argue instead for a colorblind philosophy. Let's get raised out of public policy. If we want to correct for disadvantages, let's do that on the basis of socioeconomics in class. And in my view, this is a much healthier path towards the ideal of a colorblind society. It used to be, you know, common sense on the left and in liberal circles that that's what you wanted to do.
1:26In the mid -60s, you had Martin Luther King writing and speaking to this effect. But in the past 50 years and particularly in the past 10 with the explosion of Black Lives Matter, social justice, wokeness, DEI, critical race theory, whatever you want to call it, this idea of colorblindness has come under attack as naive at best or as white supremacists at worst. So, so in the book here, I really try to rescue this idea of colorblindness because I think it's the the wisest way to actually navigate a multiracial multi -ethnic society in the long run. Explain to me the difference between being colorblind and not seeing race because that kind of became a meme.
2:07I don't see race because the meme, what is there a difference? I think there's a huge difference because the truth is we all see race, right? When someone says I don't see race I understand what they're getting at, but it's actually a lie. It's not true. I could, you know, everyone watching this can see that you're white and that I'm not, right? So when people say I don't see race, they're putting up a very convenient target for the critics of colorblindness to say, look, they're just being naive, they're pretending not to see race, and it allows people to dismiss the deeper philosophy of colorblindness without giving it a fair consideration.
2:46So in my book, I advocate that people just stop saying that it gives enemies of colorblind as far too easy a target. What you should say instead is, I try to treat people without regard to race. Now that doesn't roll off the tongue quite as quickly, but it's much closer to the truth. It's more accurate. And so, I think we should all admit that we see race, all admit that we are theoretically capable of being racist, all of us are. So this is not a book that's telling you to be naive or to pretend that racism doesn't exist. It's a book that says we should treat people without regard to race both in our personal lives and in our public policy.
3:27You mentioned before about this abandonment of the conversation around class and this focus on the conversation around race. This is something that I've noticed, especially coming from the UK, which is still a super classist society. I have a party trick that I've done a couple of times over the last year since moving to America. If there's me and another British dude or girl in the room, I'll say, don't tell me anything about you. Just let's have a conversation for 60 seconds about something that isn't you and your origins. And I'll try and work out where you're from, what sort of school you went to, what level of education you've got, what your parents did, what class you would be considered from.
4:07And the ability to do that, I don't know if that's a skill set that the Americans have to be able to just X ray in on someone's class background, but just accent and presentation of British people denotes so much about that background. Right, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you can sort of do that in America, but not probably not quite to the same extent. So talk to me about this abandonment, the conversation around class and this prioritization of race instead because, you know, classic left leaning policies were about class. They weren't about rights. Yeah, so during the civil rights movement, the policy of the civil rights movement, and anyone can read this in Martin Luther King's book, why we can't wait from the mid -60s, he says, here's the plan.
4:57We are going to have an anti -poverty program. He called it the Bill of Rights for the Disadvantaged. It's going to benefit the Black poor, it's going to benefit the white poor alike on the basis of class. though it will benefit black people disproportionately because black people are disproportionately poor to begin with. But it won't be a race -based policy, it'll be a class -based policy, and we're going to get rid of Jim Crow, get rid of all race -based policies, and proceed with a kind of war on poverty and disadvantage that is colorblind in nature. Everyone agreed, I mean for a brief moment the elites at least, the people in power agreed, past the landmark civil rights legislation of the 1960s which made it the case that for instance my grandfather and grandmother could vote and So on and so forth sit wherever they wanted on a bus go to whatever restaurant they wanted go to whatever school they wanted And then in the late 60s There was a series of destructive riots over 150 riots in American cities Around this issue of race and policing And what happened is everyone who had just agreed to this colorblind principle lost faith in it.
6:17Because they said, if we just agreed on colorblindness past all this legislation, how come there's all this writing? Clearly, we must need to do more, we must need to do something else. And the only thing that I can compare this to in the lifetime of most of your listeners, if not all of your listeners, is the summer of 2020 when George Floyd died in Minneapolis and you had riots all over the country in most American cities. And you had politicians and just everyday people feeling enormous pressure to put racial identity on the front burner and to do all kinds of things. Every elite institution was in some way trying to promote black people to high levels of authority, to show how much they cared about black people, to require black people to be on the boards of publicly traded companies, to change the categories that the Grammy Awards operate under, just everything.
7:22Everyone felt this enormous pressure to quote unquote center race. Something very similar happened in the late 60s and that's where the impetus for race -based affirmative action came from and the whole suite of race -based policies that have become normal in American society. So that's really what happened with the pivot away from colorblindness. It's looking back on 2020, it was almost like a collective apology from people that didn't really know what was going on. We feel like maybe someone's been racist somewhere, maybe this George Floyd thing is indicative of some huge big underlying problem.
8:06Oh my God, I don't know. That makes me such a piece of shit. I don't have my finger on the pulse empathetically, sympathetically. I'm not a good person.
8:20What but also to make reparations, to fix this problem. I need to make sure that these poor minorities are okay. And let's bring a bunch of impetus along, a bunch of procedures, a bunch of initiatives that people can do. Yes. So one of the reasons people had that sense is because, because the media, the national media in America it does not report when there are police incidents with white Americans. It just doesn't become news and it's partly because of the media, it's partly because there's less of an audience for it. So for example, there was a guy named Tony Tempa who died in a way extremely similar to George Floyd with an officer's knee on the top of his back for about 13 minutes.
9:13And they're cracking jokes as he's losing consciousness saying, wake up for school, Tony, He just really terrible behavior for a group of police officers and he died. The whole thing was called on video. You can look it up on YouTube. Almost nobody to this day knows or cares about it because it didn't catch fire because he happened to be white. This was just a two or three or four years before George Floyd. So when you have a media ecosystem where those stories are unseen, now when you see it happening to a black person, everyone assumes that this kind of thing only happens to black people because they are black, and then it becomes an example of racism that ties into the whole legacy of slavery, legacy of racial inequality, and really infuriates people.
10:08And so people in 2020, they lost all reason. They didn't ask whether all the policies they were implementing had anything to do with helping black people. The kinds of black people that are poor and from poor backgrounds like George Floyd, instead they promoted black people to the heads of boards of publicly traded companies as if those are the same kinds of black people that need help like George Floyd. essentially they made the black elite even better off than it was before. While at the same time, defunding the police for neighborhoods where black people need them the most, okay? At the time of the summer of 2020, Gallup pulled black Americans with three simple questions.
11:00Do you want more police in your neighborhood, the same police presence in your neighborhood or less? 80 % answered the same or more. Only 20 % wanted less police. And that was the position, a very minority position within the black community of the Black Lives Matter movement, the defund the police movement and so forth. Police were defunded in many cities in America and then later refunded in many cases by popular demand within the black community in certain places. And the end result was that 2020 represented the single greatest increase in homicide from year to year in America in the past 100 years.
11:47Okay. That is a shocking fact that most people don't know, and it was a direct result of the reaction to George Floyd's death, the depolicing, the mass retirement of the police, the general sentiment of anti -police. And it hurt nobody more than the black community because those homicides were not equally distributed in nice neighborhoods unless they were highly concentrated precisely in communities that are disproportionately black and disproportionately poor. I taught Joe Rogan yesterday on his podcast about luxury beliefs from that's been recently repopularized by Rob Henderson and defund the police is patient zero for this.
12:30I mentioned that I was walking through Austin and saw a house that has a defund the police a placard in the garden and a private security sticker next to the front door in the window. Yeah. The fact that people like that don't see the irony is really depressing to me. I mean, there are literally people that have their own private security detail, okay, who supported defund the police. There are people in gated neighborhoods who pay a premium just so that strangers can't come near their house, not even in their house, but near their house, who want to gut police forces in that are, you know, for poor neighborhoods.
13:16This is amazing. And that's what happened in 2020. And more importantly, that's what can happen in particular in America on the left. When people only obey their empathy towards a video and suspend the rational thought that should come with that. Okay, this video is horrible. Let's all agree that. What is actually the best way to move forward? Let's not just rage, Let's actually think, look at evidence and not be so hasty with supporting policies that might backfire for the very people you're trying to help. I think it would have been very difficult during the summer of 2020 to have put out realistic crime impact statistics.
14:05what the actual polls are saying from mostly black neighborhoods. I think anyone that posted that it would have been very quickly lambasted as some white supremacists, race denial, you don't care, you don't understand, you don't know. That would have been the smart thing to do, but the incentives all aligned to not have. I mean, who was going to be the person that does that? If it was a black person that be accused of being an uncle Tom, if it was a white person, they'd be accused of being racist. There was no vector in which that narrative could have inserted itself. I don't think. Yeah. I mean, Sam Harris tried to, I think he released like a 90 minute, 90 minute audio back from the brink.
14:52Yeah, pull back from the brink, which was very good. One of the best, for the people that haven't listened to it, even now, it is one of the best, like monologues, I think that I've ever heard. That thing is phenomenal. It was spot on in my view. And I'm sure he took a lot of flack for it. As my friend Camille Foster likes to say, people like me and Camille have the melanin force field, which is, you know, no one is gonna call me a racist. They make, as you say, they may call me an Uncle Tom or a traitor to my community and so forth, to which I would respond, what could be more of a betrayal to your community than not speaking out?
15:37When you know that policies are being adopted, that are going to lead to potentially hundreds or thousands of excess deaths for black people. Because that's what happened. The internet is obsessed with the prioritization of looking good over doing good. and completely obsessed with it, because the distance between our opinions and our deeds have never been greater. So it's very easy to hide behind words that sound caring and just and forthright and charitable and understanding. And the implications of it, what actually happens, kind of, no one really ever fact checks that. He was the guy, and I'm sure he had good intentions.
16:21Who could have foreseen that defunding the police would have negatively impacted black people? Well, I don't know if you'd used a little bit of a little bit of second order thinking. A lot of people foresaw it. A lot of people talked about it at the time, me included. But mostly we were ignored because of the frenzy around the moment. I mean, It's very interesting to live through a moment that I think will be written about by historians. Yeah. We're fairly close to the same age. We haven't gotten too many of those, I think. But the summer of 2020, we have to acknowledge what happened. A man died in police custody in a city, Minneapolis.
17:11not one of the cities, frankly, that is known by non -Americans. And there were protests, not just in America, all around the world. London. Yeah, I think New Zealand. New Zealand, east of the UK. And even more surprisingly, in non -English -speaking locations. I think as far as Japan, if I'm not mistaken. So this is obviously it had something to do with the pandemic and the fact that everyone was stuck at home. I don't know if you recall this, but I do remember just the palpable sense of, I don't get to move my body every day, I don't get to go out. And when you finally have an outlet for that, I think the floodgates kind of open.
17:58Do you think that the same outcome would have occurred, had it not being recovered? No, I think it would have struck a chord no doubt, but I think it would have been like one tenth as crazy. But, you know, the other thing that many people appointed out is just how quickly the principles of the medical establishment disappeared and buckled. So what I mean by that is in early COVID there were all of these protests by right wing kind of activists and citizens around lockdowns, right? There were protests outside where people didn't want to be locked down and they went outside and I can't remember whether they were wearing masks or not, but those were roundly denounced by every important medical institution in the country because they were jeopardizing herd immunity.
19:00They were killing grandma. Absolutely. Yeah, mass spreading events or whatever. Yeah. And then literally weeks later, when you had thousands or tens of thousands of people marching in the streets, shoulder to shoulder, all over the country, the whole medical establishment just turned around and said, it's okay because it's for racism, right? And even some of them said, when you think about it, isn't racism a kind of pandemic also? And people watch this on understanding that elite institutions are capable of such hypocrisy, of such a loose relationship with their own principles and lose faith. Talk to me about the relationship between racism, anti -racism, and neo -racism.
20:05So, over the past 10 years, there's been a real upswing in what many have called anti -racism. I'm talking in particular if your listeners may have heard of people like Ibrum Kendi, Tana Hasekot's, Rob and DeAngelo. These are people that got a big, in the case of Kendi and DeAngelo, got a big boost by the atmosphere of 2020, but they've been around and writing for longer than that. And they have a kind of philosophy around anti -racism that comes out of critical race theory. And their philosophy is that, you know, a white guy like you should be more or less constantly thinking about how your whiteness has given you privilege, how your whiteness blinds you to the realities that a black person like me can see.
21:03And on DeAngelo's account, you are supposed to be constantly different to black people in conversation. So she literally says in her book, if you and I are talking about race, you as a white guy, me as a black guy, you are not supposed to disagree with what I have to say about race. You're not supposed to argue back, you're not supposed to remain silent, you're not supposed to get defensive. So if you cross everything on the list, off the list by process of elimination, what's left is to vocally agree with whatever I'm saying. Now, I don't think you and I could have a meaningful conversation, a meaningful conversation as adults, if the rules are, you have to agree with everything I say and simply defer to my superior epistemic authority.
22:00That can't be what that can't paint the path towards a healthy, multi -racial society where we try our best to get along despite our differences. It has to be a two -way street. It has to be that you can learn things from me and I can learn things from you based on our individual experiences, you may know stuff, I don't know, I may know stuff you don't know. And ultimately there is an objective reality out there, independent of our perspectives. Like, there are facts in the world that don't depend on your skin color or my skin color. And so that's been the style of anti -racism that's been promoted.
22:38Now, I view that as in fact racist. It's in fact racist to suggest that different races of people should live by different sets of books. And so I call it instead of anti -racism, I call it neo -racism. And I substitute my own form of anti -racism, which is your race does not matter. Your race says nothing about who you are, doesn't say whether you're smarter dumb, it doesn't say whether you're kind or mean, it doesn't speak to any of your deeper values. And we have to be enshrining that and teaching people to think that way if we are, if we're going to have success in the long run. Why did that particular narrative spread so effectively?
23:29What made it so mometically contagious? Yeah, that's a great question. So I have a whole chapter about this in my book. The interesting part is if you go back only to 2012 or 2013, just 11 years ago, the majority of Americans, Black, White, and Hispanic all believed that race relations were good. right? That may shock people, but very recently the majority of Americans of all colors thought that we were in a good or somewhat good place. Then in 2013, if you look at the polls, suddenly it just takes a no -stif. And it had been steady or getting better for many decades. So something happened in 2013 that has yet cut in half the number of Americans that think we're in a good place with respect to race.
24:29Hypothesis 1. Racism suddenly increased and everyone noticed it. Well, we have ways of measuring that and it's just not the case. There's no evidence that racism suddenly increased in 2013. However, you look at it. My hypothesis and the only one that actually makes sense is that 2013 is around the year that a critical mass of people had two pieces of technology. Camera enabled smartphones and social media. If you go back to the pre -2013 world, if something happened between a cop, say a white cop, was trying to arrest a black suspect and it went sideways, the only way you'd know about that is if your local newspaper covered it, it might make your local paper the next day.
25:29Perhaps it would make the six o 'clock news if you were watching it. There is unlikely to be a video of it. And when you saw it, it would be surrounded with journalistic context. The journalist would have asked the police for their point of view, would have asked the family for their point of view, and would be packaging it to you and with some kind of journalistic ethos. In the post 2013 world, what happens is in that same situation, police trying to arrest a suspect, someone has probably pulled out their smartphone within two minutes, begun filming and a video which is now out of context of how the interaction started.
26:14And they've uploaded it to Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. And it gets millions of views as raw footage before anyone puts any journalistic or fact -checking context around what it is and what it means and why it happened. That's a fundamental change in the way that information spreads. And so I make an analogy in the book. Imagine if the speed limit on the highway in America, we suddenly went from 80 miles an hour to 200 miles an hour. Not all cars would be able to take advantage of that change. So like a Chevy Spark has a top speed of what? Maybe 90 miles per hour, but a McLaren that can go up to 250 is, it's gonna be suddenly a lot different to be a McLaren driver.
27:14This is analogous to what happened when we got smartphones and social media, the speed limit on the information highway doubled, tripled, quadrupled, or more, and certain kinds of information on that new highway were able to take advantage of that speed limit change. And others were not. The kinds of things that spread insanely in the age of social media algorithms, it turns out in America and the West at large are videos that tap directly into the us versus them, historical guilt, white guilt, black outrage. This is somehow at the core of the American and Western European psyche in a way that leads videos that evoke that push that button to just spread like wildfire.
28:13And they spread much faster than the fact checking in the journalistic context can spread because those things appeal more to reason than emotion. So there are so many of these incidents that people just experienced the initial outrage of seeing and learning about what happened, and they don't experience the fact -checking. And that's in a nutshell what happened. It created the false perception that racism was on the rise when, in fact, racism was in decline. Ryan. This is reflected in a ton of surveys and polling data as well. Yes. Do you think that what is the number of black people per year that are killed by police?
28:51What is the number of black people that are shot by other black people or shot by white people or how many people would have a problem with their son or daughter marrying a person of the opposite race? Yeah. Absolutely. So, you point out a really important one because there are a lot of people that would like to say, okay, Coleman, I understand. what you're saying, but isn't it just that social media and smartphones exposed us to all the racism that was out there that we just went into what was going on all along? Yes. Finally, we just see it and that's what people are reacting to. Well, if that were true, then you would expect people who are online to have an accurate perception of how much racism and how much police violence is out there.
29:37That's an easily testable proposition and it has been tested. And I cite one study in my book which in 2019 asked Americans of different political persuasions, but in particular very liberal Americans who are the most on social media. And therefore on this theory should be the most educated. How many unarmed black Americans are killed by the cops every year? And the answer on average was about a thousand. The true number that year was 12. So that should put to rest the notion that social media is making us all smarter and more informed on these kinds of issues. It's not. It's doing the opposite.
30:18Is social media and videos of black people being mistreated enough to galvanize and sustain the change in perception of race relations. Like that, I can totally see why that would be the inflection point 2012 -2013, but there's been an awful long time of this compounding you would have expected that some moment have been able to come in with counter examples that everyone's sights on the scope would have sort of been adjusted by, well, here's some actual data about what's going on. Is that it? Is that in a nutshell, that's all what what else is caused this to perpetuate? Yeah well it's a good question because I do think that that is the main cause and the trigger.
31:08But there are some background facts that I think are also important that allow American society to be more vulnerable to division today than it would have been in the past. One is the Cold War ended. We no longer have had a really scary external enemy that unites the country. Maybe Putin was close, but we're kind of divided on Putin now. Tucker Carlson clearly likes him. We're not really united against China because China is not as obviously our main geopolitical rival as the Soviet Union was. And so, you know, I forget who it was, it might have been actually Kissinger that said this, someone else, that war unites countries and peace divides them.
32:08So the United States is, as a side effect of being a country that's perpetually at peace, even when we're at war in far away places, our homeland is never threatened, almost ever. That allows us to focus more on divisions. And then secondly, I think the war on terror losing its psychological hold on people also once again allows us to turn inward more and focus on our own divisions. This is a pretty big effect because look at a society like Israel. Israel was in one of its deepest divisions that it's ever been in in its country's history prior to October 7th over judicial reform. It was completely split.
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32:57It was a society almost traumatized by its splitness. You had people predicting civil war even over this stuff. The second it gets attacked, it's like all of that doesn't matter. No one even talks about it, right? The whole country unites around the war that they have to fight. So America, as a side -effect of being so generally at peace, is quite inward looking and inward obsessed. How has this changed or impacted the way that people behave into personally? I think before 2013, and certainly in my childhood, I grew up in a multi -racial multi -ethnic town. I had friends of every race and I did not think of them as belonging to a race.
33:47I thought of them as their individual names and their individual characters. I made innocent racial jokes with all of my friends and it was something held very loosely, not very deeply as it should be. In the new age of race obsession, I think there are many situations that have introduced paranoia and tension into the relationship of people with different races. I mean, just the fact that, say, I'm meeting a white person for the first time, they don't know anything about me, they just see that I'm black. Because of everything they see on social media and the cancellations of people for saying the wrong thing and the ubiquity of concern about racism, they may think to themselves, you know what, I'm not even going to risk saying what I think about this new policy around this black eye.
34:52Why would I even risk it? He's probably little do they know that I might agree with them. And that might be the opening to a really interesting conversation, but disagree with them, but be very interested in having a conversation and not offended. That's right. That's right. And so I think the self -sensorship and all of it is, I mean, I can't tell you how many employers I have talked to or have reached out to me that said, yeah, I mean, I don't even know if I want to hire a black employee because if something happens in this day and age, or if I fire them for a genuine cause, which has to happen all the time, the possibility that they claim I'm a racist and spread it all over social media could be ruinous for me.
35:46Right? This is, these are the things no one talks about that actually do change the on the ground reality for race relations in ways that are really, really negative, I think. There was a study that I looked at about how me too hurt women's careers. Women's productivity fell post -MeToo largely due to fewer collaborations with men. A study of research collaborations involving junior female academic economists showed that they started fewer new research projects after MeToo. The decline is driven largely by fewer collaborations with new male co -authors at the same institution. The drop -in collaborations is concentrated in universities where the perceived risk of sexual harassment accusations for men is high.
36:33That is, when both sexual harassment policies are more ambiguous, exposing men to a larger variety of claims, and the number of public sexual harassment incidents is also high. The results suggest that MeToo is associated with increased cost of collaboration that disadvantaged the career opportunities of women. Me too was important to raise awareness, but the intent was not to impose costs on women's careers. Yeah, it's very interesting. I remember that result. It just shows you how, you know, in every cultural phenomenon changes incentives in a way that has downstream consequences. And that doesn't mean it's bad, you know, Perhaps that was a necessary cost.
37:19I don't know. You know, I'm also, I'm curious if the MeToo movement had a similar effect on like dating an approaches by men in general. It has. Right. A men report approach anxiety increasing because of fear of being me too. Right. And I wonder if women, I wonder I'm curious if women report wanting more approaches than they're getting. That's all they're getting in the past. That's, that's, that's also true. but here's the other thing, almost like a kind of bizarre psychological stock home syndrome that women are also more afraid of being approached. They want to be approached, but their sensitivity, their trepidation about being approached has also increased.
38:02Because what are you seeing? You're seeing we're mimetic reaches. We look to others and the behavior and the patterns that they show as an indication of how we should behave. And if what you're seeing is that this guy isn't to be trusted and there was a tweet that went viral a couple of weeks ago about how a guy paying you a compliment is a red flag because he's love bombing. So, you know, basically this, repurposing of any kind of male behavior or any kind of white behavior, any male behavior toward a woman or any white behavior toward a black person and can be interpreted in a way that fits a narrative of perpetrator and victim.
38:52Right. It's kind of similar in a way to, I remember in early 2020, I think, this is after Ahmad Arbery was killed in an attempted citizen's arrest gone wrong while he was out on a jog. And this was a tragic incident and it was an example of just why you should never try to do a citizen's arrest unless for some reason you absolutely have to.
39:23But, you saw articles saying, you know, the dangers of jogging while black, right? You literally had it near time's op -up -ed, which was a guy saying that he fears for his life every time he leaves his house to take a jog. Probably a guy that's from the suburbs and no one's been killed taking a jog in that town probably for a hundred years. right? And the odds of getting killed by a cop on a jog are probably lower than the odds of getting struck by lightning. Okay, let's be perfectly clear about that. So, but what happens when you have near -times articles saying that when you have, you know, just a whole narrative that plays up the risks of as a black person getting shot by the police, even though they're infinitesimal.
40:29What happens is you get every day normal black people, if they get pulled over for speeding or whatever, actually now fearing for their lives, right? And bringing all of that fear with them to their interaction with the cops. You have just, and I'm sure cops have seen this. you just have people freaking out when there is almost no chance that something's going to go left in this interaction because you've done nothing wrong. They've got both hands on the steering wheel, but they're freaking out because they've seen this narrative. Yeah. Did you see the Dartmouth Scar experiment? Mm -hmm. So they brought people into a lab and said that they were going to put scars on their face and then get them to go and take a job interview.
41:13and as they're about to leave from the makeup room to go into the job interview, they say, sorry, we just need to touch it back up to make it a little bit more obvious. And as they did the touch up, the participant wasn't aware of what they were doing, they actually covered them over. So sitting down opposite the interviewer, the interviewer didn't see anything. There were no scars on their face. And then afterward they asked the study participants, so what did you notice? Were there any telltale signs? Do you think that you being discriminated against? Yeah, I could tell that they just couldn't stop looking at it.
41:44So you are able to create a narrative in someone's mind where the Reticular activating system is so obsessed looking for a thing. The adamant that this is what they should be looking for. It was the same... It was the reason why I think this dude called Joey Swole who was a Fitness influencer, I guess, on TikTok, and he was kind of like the Vanguard pushing back against these videos of girls videoing themselves and then voice overing about a dude glances over and saying, I feel unsafe in this jam. There were a bunch of videos that went viral maybe a year ago, something like that. And he was basically saying, this is out of order.
42:25Like that guy didn't do anything wrong. He came over, he tried to help you unload your 25 kilo dog shit form glute bridge exercise. He was doing us something, well, whatever. But that was really important because I think people especially on the internet, they look to other people's behavior as a proxy or an example of how they should behave. And if that hadn't been pushed back against, a whole swath of goals that saw those videos online would have said, oh yeah, if a guy glances over three times in the space of 90 seconds while I'm doing glute bridge, that is something that I should be scared about.
43:01But the internet sort of came together and the collective judgment was actually that's kind of a bit ridiculous and that then becomes the new matter, right? That is now the new trend. Oh, okay. So I've four times in 90 seconds, I five times in, oh, I don't need to worry about it as much. So this sort of safety is in culture, doesn't make people safer, it just makes them more fragile and more vigilant. Oh, yeah. And I think the whole generation of people roughly my age and younger, and a little older than me too, is just measurably more anxious about everything. And I actually just had Abigail Shryer on my podcast who has a new work.
43:46Yeah. And she talks about this, you know, just this notion of exposure therapy, which is one of the few kinds of therapy on her account that actually works. If you have some kind of phobia, really what you have to do is just do the thing you don't want to do over and over again until it sucks a bit less, right? You're what at your afraid of dogs? Well, you're petting a dog today. Sorry. And you're going to keep doing it until you're no longer afraid of it. And it turns out that that works really well. It's very simple and very unpleasant, but it works. And I asked her, I think she agreed with this point.
44:28Exposure therapy, the lesson of exposure therapy is generalizable to anxieties, most anxieties in general, the more at -bats you get in uncomfortable situations on a first date, asking a girl out, meeting someone for the first time, public speaking, whatever it is, even for some people making a phone call is anxiety inducing going to the post office, whatever it is that people are, makes people uncomfortable, you precisely have to do that thing just over and over and over again. And what's happened, I think, on mass with the younger generation, and this can be seen in, for instance, Gene Twingy's research on generational differences, is that Gen Z has just gotten less experiences around the board on every conceivable kind of thing, less sex, less hanging out with people, less all of it.
45:27And so it's not exactly surprising that Gen Z has more anxiety about all of those things. Talk to me about affirmative action. You mentioned this earlier on. Is that useful? What about all of the corporate diversity and inclusion efforts beyond the ones that try to get more black people on boards? Whether they're not, you know, drives to get people into high -paying jobs or to fast track them into higher education institutions. What's your post -mortem on that? Yeah. So there's kind of an older, healthier version of DEI that I would support, which is, let's say you're a boss and you've got 10 people reporting to you.
46:17Let's say you're a white man.
46:22And you might like fall into the habit of golfing with the other white men every other weekend and never really think to invite, you know, the Hispanic guy or the black woman or whatever, not out of conscious prejudice, but just because what if they don't golf? and you don't, so you don't think to ask them. And so you can fall into a pattern of like, golfers, like non -golfers. Yeah, yeah. Of just, yeah, you can have some kind of magnetism with the people that are more similar to you without actually trying to exclude anybody. So a kind of innocent and useful version of DEI just to have like corporate best practices with respect to including people, like make sure you go to lunch with everyone one -on -one once a month, right?
47:22Have that be a policy. Golf neutral best practices. Exactly, yeah. So, okay, so if that's what you mean by DEI, then I think I'm all for it. Unfortunately, what most organizations mean by DEI is we have to have a certain number or a certain percentage or a certain vague range of percentages of non -white people and women or elsewhere, erasist and sexist institution. Now that makes me completely uncomfortable because I know that it is a sacred value to people. I know there's I mean there's people that would listen to this and just turn it off halfway through the sentence to even challenge that that is an important value.
48:17But I don't know about you Chris when I want to hire someone to work on my podcast, I don't give two flying fucks what they look like. I want to hire the most competent person that That is in my price range. Same thing goes for when you produce your music, which everyone should go and check out by the way, cold X -man on YouTube. Phenomenal, dude, I've sent you videos of me listening to it in the car. But if it's the guy that's mastering your tracks or making your beats or helping you mix everything down or helping you film the music video, why was it Ukraine? Did you go Ukraine? I did go to Ukraine, yeah.
48:54Before this was prior, I think. I have a habit of visiting countries right before they break out into war. I think it might be my set that you might be associated somehow that you could be the genesis. Did you film a music video in Israel on? I went there like 10 months before the war blame it on you. Yeah so We were yes, so so DEI right so I think If I reserve that right for myself how can I deny it to to a corporation? I don't understand I think that people pay lots of lip service to the idea of diversity because for like a cosmopolitan globalized person which I would consider myself too, we a lot of us are xenophiles and we like diversity like you know it's nice to have people of many different cultures inhabiting the same room it's it's in and riching.
49:55But I think diversity is kind of like love. If you force it, you've kind of missed the point. But if it arises naturally, it's awesome. I mean, you know, look at there are sub -subfields in the arts and music that are highly diverse with no quota or bending of the merit principle necessary. Good the comedy world, look at the music world. These are highly diverse places and no one has to manufacture the diversity. That's great. But in this place where you don't have it, I'm not sure that you ought to manufacture it. Should we be reducing the number of black people in the NBA because it's so undiverse?
50:38I'm not sure. I mean, it may sound glib, but I give examples in the book. Did anyone think that the Beatles needed a person of color? Does anyone think that Earthwinden fire needed a white person? I don't think so. I mean, things can be groups of people can be excellent and also homogenous and who are we from the outside to say that that's a racist circumstance? Now, I will give one exception, which is that if being racially homogenous prevents some institution from doing its job well, then by all means. So for instance, if the NYPD were 100 % white guys, I can imagine how that might make it more difficult for the police to protect the community because the community inevitably might perceive that as just a colonial relationship as white people policing people of color.
51:40So that's a situation where they actually can't do their job as effectively unless they are racially diverse. So if you're in a situation like that, by all means, pursue diversity. But most of us are not at firms and companies that are in that situation. and most of us are in situations more like, at least my cartoon image of what firefighting is. It's like the fire doesn't care what color you are, right? So get the best people. Have any of the race -based policies actually worked? Have any of them actually helped in your opinion?
52:25It's very difficult for me to think of any that have helped more than they hurt. Let's put it that way. I'm not saying none have helped, but it is difficult to think of any that have helped on that. Yeah. Whereas it's pretty easy to think of ones that have hurt more than they helped. Dude, I'm fascinated by what it's like to be you talking about this stuff. You know, you had this sort of incident with Ted a little while ago. I always say I have this, you know, the peak end rule is in psychology. Oh yeah, yes, yes. People tend to remember the most emotionally salient and the final experience of one particular event.
53:18I kind of have a peak hate rule, which describes content creators and individuals in the world that almost all individuals are known by their most egregious blow -up and their most recent blow -up. I guess it's unfortunate that you're both for both of yours, your overlap over the top. Jordan Peterson, for instance, might be, he didn't want to call trans people by their name, 2016 and he lost his license because he's a bigot on the internet or he has things to say about sports illustrated models. You know, like there's the the peak one and then there's the most recent one. I always wonder, you know, like how many people are like, this is the last time that I'll ever step onto the field of play.
54:04Whether it's this is the thing, this is my crowning cancellation or my crowning sort of moment of of of fuel or whatever. But yeah, you had this thing and it happens with Ted. I'm pretty fascinated by what the response is being to you talking about this. You've just been on Bill Ma. It turns and turns of exposure on some Harris's show. You've been on Rogan's show. It's as big as it can get with this. What do people say? What's the response to you on the negative side of the fence? The response to me is still mostly positive. and then there's a sort of concentrated stream of extreme negativity.
54:47So, and then a lot of people that ignore me, that might not ignore me if I were saying something different. But look, overwhelmingly, I get a lot of support and I'm enormously grateful for it. And more and more as I've I think gotten better at writing and speaking and as in particular as as we've gotten further and further away from the height of 2020 craziness, more and more people have seen in their own lives the cost of obsessing over race, the cost of suspending reason because of a desire to acknowledge racism. more and more people have lived those costs over the past few years. And so more and more people, I think, have become sympathetic to my concerns and to my message.
55:44On the other hand, as there always has been, there's an extreme concentrated ray of hatred towards me by... I'm a bust of vitriol. Yeah, and it doesn't give me superpowers, unfortunately, or maybe it does in some way. You were able to make wars happen a couple of right and safty with 10 different countries. Yeah, it's a weird superpower. I'm not sure I'd be a member of the Justice League with that, but... War man. It's War man. Yeah, War plus 10 month delay. God damn it. It's really fascinating, man, to observe that thing unfold. I spoke to this dude a while ago on the show who had researched the history of existential risk of human understanding of our own capacity to destroy ourselves and of the environment's capacity to destroy us too.
56:37He taught me this idea called conceptual inertia, which is beautiful because it's explained within the concept as well that ideas take time to move. And I kind of I think about But cultural changes and the acceptance and understanding and then propagation of ideas, new ideas, kind of like a huge tanker that's moving across the sea, that it takes a fucking eternity to get it to go left or right or even begin to nudge it a tiny little bit. There's that I quote about whatever it is like a Science science makes progress one dead generation of scientists at a time and This conceptual inertia thing as a perfect example even after it was pretty Widely accepted that the earth was no longer the center of the solar system or the center of the universe It took like two generations for that to be common parlance amongst people that were talking about it, that even after it was accepted, there was still kind of this reticence or just this delay, there was this inertia that was carried over from previously.
57:51And the problem is you think, well, ideas are, they literally travel at the speed of light, they travel at the speed of understanding, but it turns out the speed of understanding is really slow. And it's not just the speed of understanding. It's like, I get this, I reject it. Well, there's a critical mass of information or justification that I need to be able to believe this thing is the case. But then I've got, it's not just me believing, it's everybody else because I don't just act in a vacuum and there's a tendency for people to skew what they think or believe based on what other people think or believe or what they think other people will think or believe about them thinking or believing that thing.
58:30and then it's just this so many, it's lumbering behemoth, this Leviathan that takes forever to move around. And it's such a shame because people who are able to see, I remember in 2020, hearing about the DeFundre police things and I was listening to people like yourself, like Sam, that were highlighting the potential negative downstream externalities of these kinds of policies being implemented. And yet, there's still people now, nearly four years hence, that would say, that would deny that that is something that's had a negative impact. And you know, you're right, living through history is a very bizarre scenario, but it's even, it must be even more bizarre if you're Cassandra.
59:20And you're able to, you're black Cassandra. And you're able to say, look, this was something that we didn't need to wait a decade to be able to work out that this was going to happen. We could have seen it kind of at the time. And there's this, like I say, this sort of critical mass. It's very interesting time. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with respect to changing people's or opinions, in some sense, we're both in the business of this, you know, just in that we have podcasts and so on.
59:57But you're right about your point about inertia. At the same time, there are situations where I think they could, I think they're called like an availability cascade or something like this. I've heard this guy cast Sunstein talk about these situations. He wrote a book with the dude that did thinking fast and slow, Daniel Kahneman. Yeah. Sure others have talked about this, but there can be situations where everyone is pretending to believe something. But no one really knows. Most people don't know that everyone else is pretending, right? Everyone thinks that they're the only one. The Abilene paradox is another name for this.
1:00:37Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's great. And then if you get an Emperor's Emperor has no close moment where a few people come out and talk about it, there can be a sort of cascade where everyone realizes relatively quickly that they're not on board. And fails fall from their eyes type thing. Absolutely, yeah. And with certain beliefs in the belief cluster of woke social justice, it at least seems theoretically possible that that can happen. you know, I would at least I would I would hope. At the same time I haven't really seen it happen, so who knows? It certainly seems to be upstream and downstream in quite predictable directions.
1:01:30Right, you if it allows performative empathy or toxic compassion or if it's mimetically hijacking because there is a minority group which is being pedestalized and there is a previously privileged group which is being demonized. You can pretty reliably say that the stickiness of that idea and the rapidity of its uptake is going to be pretty quick. Right. Yeah, it's a very strange blend. What about this trend of revising American history. How has that played into everything? Yes. In my book, I talk about this, there is a trend, not just in writing about history, but also in Hollywood movies about history, of playing up the sins of white supremacy and the sins of white people, and downplaying any responsibility that black people have.
1:02:33So for example, there was a movie called The Woman King which came out last year. I don't know if you saw this. It was Viola Davis. Viola Davis was one of the kind of chief military officers in an African tribe called the Dahome which famously had an all -female warrior unit. And that's actually true. They had a warrior unit of females. And in reality, the Dahome tribe in West Africa, slave trading was essentially their whole M .O. I mean, it was a huge part of their M .O. was raiding other African tribes, capturing them as slaves, using those slaves themselves, and also selling those slaves to the highest bidder, which in that case was Europeans who would bring them to what was then called the New World.
1:03:33So the DeHomie tribe, you know, no bueno, as you would say, historically from a historical perspective, just a lot of slave capturing, a lot of slave trading. Okay. So in the movie about the DeHomie, they portray it as if the DeHomie generals had this great guilt about slave trading and they get rid of the slaves, I think, if memory serves by the end of the movie, or at the very least, the main character is so conflicted by the fact that they're doing slave trading and I think they actually do end it by the end of the movie. There's a redemption arc somehow. Yeah, there's redemption arc that ends with the slavery being them watching no more of this.
1:04:21This absolutely didn't happen. They were actually one of the most persistent in slave trading unanimously. It was just accepted, right? So I give that one example because the idea is like for Hollywood, for the culture of Hollywood, it doesn't compute that a group of black Africans would just be fully committed to slave trading as an activity, even though that's what the historical record shows. It doesn't compute because slavery is something only white people do, right? I give another example. The movie Hidden Figures, which was about astronauts at NASA, probably 70 years ago or so. Astronauts at NASA, there were a few black women in the 1950s that worked at NASA and helped them get to the moon.
1:05:17But they at the same time this is during segregation. So they're living during segregation, but also working at NASA, helping America get to the moon, and it's this kind of hero arc of these black women. And one of the black women in who it's actually about in an interview said, I didn't feel any segregation at NASA. She said that in real life. But in the movie, she is portrayed as feeling an enormous amount of racial segregation at NASA. Right? This is another example. Whenever Hollywood gets a chance, it's going to tilt history in a direction that plays up the evil white person archetype and plays up the suffering, but morally superior black person archetype.
1:06:09Why? Because that fits their concept of history. The way that neo -racist think about history is whiteness is evil, blackness is good, white people are slave owners, black people were slaves. That's the whole story for them. So they don't know that almost all the slaves that were brought to the New World were not captured by Europeans. They were captured by other Africans. They were slaves in Africa and sold voluntarily by African tribes to Europeans. They don't know that slavery, or they're not taught that slavery has existed in almost every society down through history on every inhabited continent.
1:06:57And it would be easier to come up with a list of societies in the past 10 ,000 years that didn't use slavery than to come up with a list that did. because the list that did would be so long. And you'd be on every continent. You'd be with the Aztecs, you'd be with the Chinese, you'd be with the Koreans, you'd be with the West Africans, you'd be God knows, you'd be with the Middle East, you'd be with the Slavs of Europe, where the word slave comes from, because they were slaves, and so on and so forth. You'd be with the Russian Serfs, and so on and so forth. So from my perspective, history is a story of every group and everyone having some element of oppressor and oppressed.
1:07:47Not a story of the evil European white man versus the long -suffering noble people of color. I mean, there's no honest way to look at history and filter it all through that lens. How is this perspective not only about history but about what's going on now, how is this bifurcated between the elites and the non -elites? Is that the primary difference between who views race in this way? Oh, yeah, it's a huge difference because it's mostly in elite circles that you will see people that are really sympathetic to the white is evil, people of color, good, kind of frame. Also in the elite is where you'll find people sympathetic to kind of every trendy new way of signaling that you care about racism.
1:08:49And often the elites are clueless as to how much in an elite bubble we are. And I say we because I'm as much an elite as anyone. And the best example of this was with the word latin X. And this is a half Puerto Rican myself I grew up speaking around a lot of speaking Spanish and a lot of Spanish speakers. And so when I got to college and people started saying latin X, I was like, no, that's what? Because not only do like no Hispanic people actually use that word, but it doesn't even finitically make sense with the Spanish language. It doesn't obey the typical rules of Spanish structure, which are fairly rigid.
1:09:39But people would use this word when I was at Columbia University and you have major politicians in the Democratic Party, like Elizabeth Warren and so forth, referring to the Latin next community. Finally, when Pew did a poll and actually asked American Hispanic people if they liked the word Latin X, something like 60 % hadn't even heard it. And then something like another 36 % had heard of it and did not like it. And then the percentage of people What does that even leave? Right. Four percent roughly was the number of people who both knew it and liked it. Okay, so that is as good a measure of sort of what the elite is.
1:10:31The elite is the people in that four percent that all of them know Latinx. So they assume everyone else knows it. And they all feel comfortable with it. So they assume everyone else feels comfortable with it. and they don't realize the extent to which that sort of 4 % is living on almost on a different plane of reality than the other 96 % of people in the country who either haven't heard of even their language they're speaking or don't like it. God, that's funny. Yeah. And tragic as well. What's your solution then? What is a way you understand the incentive structure, you understand the media landscape, you understand how people are responding to wanting to appear compassionate and tolerant and upstanding in all the rest of it.
1:11:27How do we move forward? Well, I think everyone has a responsibility to check in with their own personal lives and and see if they're living by the ethos of color blindness with their friends and their family. Step one, and something everyone can do. Step two is to promote policies and politicians that speak to your values. I think in America, we actually have a lot of executive orders and judicial decisions that require employers and so forth to discriminate on the basis of race. And these are things that could be overturned, right? that the next president could on day one undo several executive orders that require affirmative action to be implemented in the federal government.
1:12:35And so there should be a lot more discussion and pressure aimed at those kinds of changes. Obviously, the Supreme Court overturning affirmative of action last summer, I think is a step in the right direction. But there's more that can be done on that front too. And as a culture, we just have to insist on the ideal of a colorblind society as the only and goal. And we have to, I hope I can help people become less shy and less fearful in expressing their commitment to live in a world where I'm doing my best not to judge you by the color of your skin, you're doing your best not to judge me by the color of my skin.
1:13:27And we're both doing our best to demand that the state, which has the monopoly on violence and sets public policy, does not discriminate against any of its citizens based on the color of our skin, which is something we cannot control. So to recommit ourselves to that as a culture, to fearlessly stand for it, that's what has to be done if we're going to make steps towards a colorblind society. Paul Manier -Eulsmann, this must be the second or third time you've been on the show. We did, did we do, we did the Super Bowl two years ago. And yeah, yeah, we did, we did. Do you remember? Yes, we did. Me, you Douglas Murray and Jordan Peterson, which is like the oddest squad to watch you're super bowl with but it's very fun.
1:14:21Bro, your music's fantastic, your book is fantastic. I'm so happy that everyone should go and pick it up now, the end of race. It's only, I mean, how long is politics? There it is. How long is the audiobook? Oh, that's a good question. I shouldn't know off the top of my head. I read it myself. It might be six hours or so. Yeah, but it's a pretty, like, not too long. Easy read. Dude, I think it's great and I think that you're a fantastic voice for all of this stuff. tell people where they can check out all of the other cool shit that you do. Yeah, so you can check out my writing at my sub -stack Coleman's corner.
1:14:56You can also check out my writing at the Free Press, which is a great new publication. I would highly recommend founded by Barry Weiss, where I'm a contributor. You can occasionally check me out on CNN, where I do political analysis. And you can check out my podcast as well, conversations with Coleman. And I want to just redirect the praise right back at you. You have one of the best podcasts out there right now. I love what you're doing. It's just fantastic. So kudos to you as well. Thank you. And everyone can go and listen to your music, dude. Honestly, just go and watch the video. What was the video?
1:15:36Yeah, but what was the video of the first song that you released that blew up? Blast for me. Blast for me. Yeah. Everyone can, before you go by the book, while you're going to buy the book, go and listen to Blast for me by Cold Dexman. It's yeah. You're awesome dude. Thanks for looking forward to catching up with you again the next time you through Austin. Absolutely. Hell yeah.
From the publisher
Coleman Hughes is a writer, an author and a podcaster.
The state of race relations in America seemed to be improving for decades, then crashed and burned over the last 5 years. What's going on? Why is everyone so obsessed with race again and how can we move beyond race politics?
Expect to learn why anti-racism is just neo-racism, the difference between being colourblind and actually being racist, why your social class is more important than your ethnicity, whether MeToo hurt women more than helping them, if there is a realistic case for DEI, whether any race-based policies have ever worked and much more...
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