#789 - Neil Strauss - Why The World’s #1 Pickup Artist Left The Game Behind

27:12Yeah, I think I mean a couple of couple thoughts and to go back. So again, these are like the stories we tell ourselves like I think that There's a learning process and maybe you learn If I look back on the game, you know, there's so many different Issues around it negative and positive and everything else But I see it as a lot of sort of neurodivergent people try to learn how to socially interact including myself for right and so so for me I needed those little I do know, just tell me what to say, like how to end my body. I was so uncomfortable around people. And then once I learned it, then I could let it go.

27:47The same way you learn anything, which is sort of learning the rules and then throwing them out. So second, I got three points to make. But again, these topics are so interesting, right? Second thought is that another perspective on the LMS thing you said, which the second perspective is people don't know what they want. So they might, what they want are the things behind that. So a way to think about, for example, it used to really hurt myself as team where I read personal ads and everyone wanted a guy with six feet or an antelder. I'll tell you. Five, ten. Okay. That's great. Right? I'm five, six, you know, maybe five, six and a half at a stretch And it took me a long time to realize that it wasn't hype they were looking for, what they were looking for was safety.

28:41I want to feel this. When maybe what does money represent, running represents that some degree of security competence. Kind of competence that was the word I was looking for, exactly competence. So if you look at the reasons underneath these and you embody the reasons underneath these, which anybody can do, the other stuff doesn't matter. Yeah, I think that's where the sort of disenchantment came from, which was not feeling like you had the actual foundation, realizing that you could create the glitcy sort of mystique. You do not need to see how much money I have, you do not need to see how much money I have.

29:19And then going, oh, I can get what I want by pretending to play this game and deep down I still don't feel like I'm worthy of it. I don't think that they see me, what they see is this persona. As soon as you're saying, I don't want you to know how little money I have, you're like the influencer we were talking about earlier who's promoting a vegan diet while eating meat for dinner, you know? You're creating a split in yourself. So here's the other thing you were talking about is I think these people you're talking about, you know, like the concept of locust of control, like there's external locusts of control and internal locusts of control.

29:52And I'm probably going to get these wrong. So apologies if I do. So the idea is like are the things that are happened to me, the fault of others outside myself, which is a nice thing to believe, right? It's just, women are like that. That's I'm opting out. Men are like that. That's I'm just not dealing with that. The world, you know, and so we're just saying we're creating this, this is everybody else's fault, so I don't have to change. I can just hate on them, right? Or be the way I am and the way I think you are is that like, this is going on. on how can I do better, how can I change, how can I do better, how can I understand, how can I be empathic?

30:31And it's like, it's a lot more work, but man, you're a lot happier. Yeah, I think the benefit, from the cynics perspective, the benefit of never trying is never having to feel the pain of failure. That's, I can put this idea called the cynicism safety blanket, which is basically that. That's why it exists. It's sour grapes at an existential level. So, yeah. And so I noticed myself, if I ever start to, and I don't even do this anymore because I stopped it, like, if I ever start thinking something negatively about someone who's successful and start comparing their work to mine and why mine, you know, I just stop instantly and I just think, you know, what can I learn from that for myself?

31:10And again, most of your listeners, I feel like I've learned growth -minded people. Right. But I think we can understand that there's certain people and I've come across them that if you're, if somebody is doing better than you, you can either try to do better or you You can try to bring them down to your level. And that's like, that's a spin in the world, but the people who try to bring them down are the loud voices right now in the culture. Correct. So do you still run a men's group? I did for a while and now I just sort of do not really. Okay, but you've been tangential to men's work. I mean, I'm in a men's group as a participant.

31:46Yeah, yeah. Okay, so given the fact that that's part of 20 years now, you've been in one form or another observing men's development, emotionally, relationally, spiritually, psychologically, therapeutically. What do you make of the current state of men's friendships, mental health, masculinity, role models? It's a very common talking point. What's your perspective on where men are at at the moment? Yeah, I've heard you talk about it a bit on the podcast, but what's your kind of take now in a nutshell, at a curiosity? I think that men are being made to pay for the sins of a patriarchy that they no longer feel like they're a part of at the moment.

32:29They're being told how privileged they are and how fortunate they are to have all of these different advantages. And quite rightly, there are outliers at the top. Elon Musk's the Bezosis of the world, the NBA players, the NFL players. But I don't think that that fully captures the main experience. And I think that a lot of men don't feel like they're, they feel like the worries are being dismissed out of hand by a whining class, this sort of chattering class. Meanwhile, suicide, depression, friendlessness, loneliness, sexlessness, health, all of the problems that we know that men have. And I think that it's making them feel quite embittered toward the world, because what they're saying is, I'm suffering and you don't care, so fuck you.

33:12I'm not gonna play your game. Right, and now who in the story is you? Who in that story is me? No, you don't care when you're saying you who is the you this might get to the point I was going thinking of the world Yes, okay, so I think we had this split That we think the world is the stuff we receive you know from our devices and from our computers And and that's a game. We don't want to play so there's an unhealthy game of thinking that the voices that are loud online and the, you know, the tic -tocks that could fed into our feed and the tweets we see are somehow the belief of the culture. And it can really mess us up.

33:55And I've seen you had on the podcast the, we'll do that wonderful JK Rowling podcast. And there's somebody who like literally just, she just got sucked into this, sucked into this whole and she's now living her life of her trauma that was, again, I'm just really swamped thinking about that, you can get taken off course by just listening to these voices and thinking that the culture thinks it or people think it. It's just one of many stories out there, but and I think it can get confusing if you have less of a grounded sense of self, or if it plays into your personal trauma. I think the problem that a lot of people, especially young people at the moment are facing is that their experience is the internet.

34:43That world is the internet. If you're spending between six and eight hours a day on screens, online, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, video games, that is more real than the real world. What do you mean the fucking real world? This is my real world. I'm observing it. What are the counter -vailing narratives that push back against the fact that maybe people do care about the fact that men are suffering. Maybe people do care about the fact that I'm really struggling to get a job or a girlfriend or a girlfriend or a neurodivergent and I don't understand what to do. I can't hold down a relationship or I don't have an a friend or whatever it is.

35:18Like, if you're not going out there into the real world to see the alternate storylines. Yeah, and I think that's I think that's exactly the point that it is very real for people. And when it becomes that real, it actually does become dangerous and And I would say that, I would say it's happened to everybody. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't matter what your identity is or how you identify yourself. There's some vector of attack that is really making you feel like you're doing it wrong. You're not enough. You step out a lot. You're a bit slapped. It's really, really hard. And really, that's why it's important going back to what you said for me to be in a But in a community of small amount of people who really, really care, who support you in the best way you can, where you can really get that feedback.

36:11And you can say, you know what, I've seen this stuff online and it's stressing me out in this way. So I think the point being, I mean, all these, there is a real problem in terms of these, are not contributing to anyone's mental health.

36:28And I think a few things are important. And I mean, one is to really try to stay out of a victim's story, to start because once you get into them, there's that saying, and I think it's the most true thing ever, that all perpetrators perpetrate from the victim position.

36:47I mean, look at every war going on. And the main thing is, is there's a victim not saying that whatever's right or wrong, but all sides are the victim, right? You know? It's a mightrocing point. whether it's with Hitler was encirclement, Putin was encirclement, right? We're surrounded by enemies where the victim, like so we perpetrate from the victim position. So like the first step is if you really want to get any reality on it to stop and get out of the victim story, because this is when people start, that's where that leads to the hate or that makes it okay to sort of perpetrate. But we can't say there are all these variables around us.

37:20And how can we curate these variables so they help us? And I do think it's insane. It's wild to me that all these companies that pretend to care about people don't have that algorithms working to actually help people versus market to them. Like I would love something and it's to the way the system works in capital is more of a, what if the algorithm was not like what can we sell you or what can we market to you, but like how can we improve your mental health, right? How can we, how can we make you, and I think that would help the world. than actually create better consumers. Anyway, so I hear what you're saying, and I get to the point of view that I don't want to tell me what my identity is, what it should be, how it should be within that identity.

38:12I probably identify myself on other factors more than... I think a lot of especially guys, but also goes increasingly now. or a loss, they don't know. We're in this completely new world. If you're either millennial or Gen Z or Gen A, your parents don't really have the skill set or the awareness to be able to work out how to exist in this world. What does it mean to be technologically native? What does it mean to be in a world with porn and Tinder and only fans and expectations and boob jobs and BBLs and stuff? What does it mean to exist like that? So people are quite rightly looking for archetypes and role models.

38:52I want someone to give me some advice to get me out of this. So I don't disagree. Many people like the idea of agency and sovereignty over their own direction. I don't want anybody to tell me who I am or what I should do or the way that I should do it. I want to feel like I am the captain of my own ship. And yet there are people who also need some fucking guidelines. How am I supposed to exist in the world? What does it mean to be confident? Where does my self -esteem come from? Where should I seek validation and not seek validation? These are questions that people look for role models and unfortunately I think culture is just offering up like very few and here's my like my Spicy meteorological take for the future.

39:28I think that male body dysmorphia will overtake female body dysmorphia and female Crisis of femininity will overtake the crisis of masculinity and in the space of about 20 years I think that we're feeding the seeds of a unbelievably fragile narcissistic generation of women and a unbelievably aesthetically anxious generation of men. And add to this, add to this computation, at AI is going to create these archetypes that like no human being can live up to a perfection. I was seeing some of the, so like on one hand, the culture's getting to sort of body positivity, body positivity. The other hand, AI is created these like archetypes that go like beyond.

40:11Fibonacci sequence perfect ratio like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's like I think we're we're but um here's my thought. I think there's there's and I'm a big reader. I think we're talking about their podcast about reading and I love reading and right now I'm reading this amazing. So penguin did a box set of the great books. Uh, it's called the little black classics, I think. Uh, and it's, there's a box set of 80 of the greatest books throughout history of the last, I don't know, 3 ,000 years. And then there's about 40 or 50 books beyond that. I'm going through them all in order, right?

40:45And when I'm learning from it is, when I'm reading about a monk in Japan, the Kanko I forget what century he was from, at least four or five centuries ago, to reading Mozart's letters with his dad to reading the Socrates to reading Kamu. Like, these things things you're talking about, maybe the language was different, that everyone was still dealing with that. The tribal secreties is like, people are telling who I should be and how I should be. I don't follow the common beliefs. There's all these rumors being spread about me that aren't even true. He's literally dealing with the same stuff. Sure, there's more of it and the device is different and it's being blissed this other way, but I think there are this human nature and these problems we dealt with.

41:34Like, there is a timeless quality to them, although they seem really unique generationally. We'll get back to talking to Neil in one minute, but first I need to tell you about Shopify. Shopify powers 10 % of all e -commerce in the United States. They are the global force behind Gymshark, Allbirds, and in case you didn't know it, newtonic. Shopify is the global commerce platform and it helps you sell at every stage of your business. They are no excuses, business partner. You can sell without learning to code or design, just bring your best ideas and Shopify will help you you open up shop. Plus, Shopify's award winning help is there to support your success every step of the way.

42:10Look, if you're starting an online business, it's not because you want to learn how to code or do graphic design. Shopify handles all of the BS so that you can focus on building and selling an awesome product. Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to shopify .com slash modern wisdom all lowercase that shopify .com slash modern wisdom to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Do you think that it's possible to game, love or connection in a relationship in the same way as you were able to do it with courtship?

42:45I mean, I think my short version of the answer is, and by the way, what are your thoughts on that, by the way? I know we have a different thought because I noticed you switched the topic, which is fine, we can go to that. What are your thoughts on the idea that, and I can give you some, I think if someone reads Albert Camelose Craig dangerously, for example, he literally complains about some of the things people are, He's like about some of the things that people feel like they're uniquely complaining about now. Like some of the lines could apply to today. Or I just think there's probably a set of everything I read, everything I read, and I can send you some of these excerpts.

43:18Like I'll mark things that literally sound like it's people talking about. Serenial problems. Perennial problems. But what are your thoughts? Because I think you see it in a very unique cultural crisis of masculinity and mental health. Well, I think from the gaming level long -term connection thing, it seems to me that more people are beginning to wake up to the fact that they probably don't want to sleep around indefinitely and kind of be in this weird Tinder admin, like, liminal purgatory for the rest of time. That probably doesn't sound like fun, but no one really talks about love in relationships.

43:54You know, even a lot of the evolutionary psychology stuff that I've dug into and I know that you've looked at as well. It speaks in a very sort of sterile transactional way. It's mate value and it's offering for status and protection and resources over for quantity and age and fertility and blah blah blah. And no one ever talks about the actual felt experience of being in love or what it's like to be attached to somebody else and be dependent on them and and be in union with them and and do things that make each other feel good and stuff like that. It's always it's always a very dispassionate look at how what's the ledger what's the balance sheet of this and at least as far as I can see I think that you can quite easily game attraction but it is much more difficult to game connection and when you say no one talks about now if you're being like what do you mean by that?

44:45Well look at the dating advice that you see that's online right like how much of the dating advice talks about this is what it feels like when you're head over heels besotted with a guy or girl partner and this is how you can handle the emotions that come up of jealousy and uncertainty and anxiety and fear of being left and all of these things. No one ever wants to talk about that because it seems in a modern world where we, you know, we can predict the weather and we can send rockets into space and we can conquer bacteria and we've got a theory of disease and we've got AI. Love kind of almost feels like God, it's sort of this very unsophisticated, wishy -washy...

45:25Have I ever talked about kind of love or relationships just in your case? Both, I think. I just don't think that there's a massive amount of discussion about love or relationships and how to build them together in a phenomenologically consistent way. Yeah, I guess, in my, by the way, in my mind, I actually think there's more out there on relationships then courtship. And I guess maybe just depends on what silo you're in and what you're going to be like. Yeah, what's your echo chamber because because like a lot of people out there are hurting over relationships. They're hurting over a past relationship they were in where they're just traumatized from the experience and they're hurting over when they're in and they just can't get out of.

46:17They're hurting one that over one that's over, should be over, but this person is still in the court system fighting them for their child. They're hurting because they did a narcissist or, you know, sociopath or someone with borderline who put them through a living hell and gaslit them and drove them. So there's so much, there's more pain out there from people trying to figure out the relationship stuff. And consequently, I more people looking for to books and podcasts and experts and healing around that at least in my salad. Why does the healing... But then the other side of what you're talking about is then there's a flip side of it which is there's a part of there's a love being marketed to us through movies and pop songs that is also not realistic to what our expectations of it you know should be that so maybe I can think of your question another way, which is we're seeing the horror stories and we're seeing the fantasies.

47:19You're smiling because I'm agreeing because we're agreeing, right? But here, where are we seeing like what what really should be a healthy expectation of what a relationship is like, right? Which it means that you know a relationship with zero conflict is a warning sign. It's not a great relationship, right? I mean, someone is that's usually what they call a parallel relationship. Two people living separate lives under one roof. It's okay to have, you know, again, as long as there's no emotional or physical abuse, it's conflict is good. To me, a healthy relationship is how quickly you recover from the conflict and truly get back to where you were before it.

47:55That's a healthy relationship. I've heard you say you shouldn't be using science to decide what to do with your heart. Yes. And I do think a lot about how much people are trying to rationally logic themselves into an effective, satisfying relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's true. I think like it's fascinating to the other side of it is people who really have a long list of what they want. And then they just go for the same broken shit every time. And the list goes away. And or they think they think they found that thing they want that meets their list, but that was the mask and they end up in the same horse or they were before.

48:35So going back to relationships, I do think the, I think the healthiest way to have the healthiest relationship learned from experience is literally just, it goes back to external versus intral locus of control. It goes back to like, I can control. I love, like I love the work of always working that yourself. Like I just love it. And I think if it's a theme or these places where we differ, It's probably I'm always blaming myself. I'm always looking at myself. I can't control the culture I can't control what people think but what I can do is control how I respond to it and to me It's giving myself the ultimate agency, right?

49:09And so I can't I don't want to get into story that Hmm, I'm upset about something outside myself that I have no control over. I want to get in the story of Fuck I'm reacting to that. Why am I reacting to that? What thoughts am I then having because of that? How can I not be reactive and then going back to relationships? Here's a, I've never articulated this, but I think it's an important idea, which is, you don't know whether you're, again, taking aside the edge cases of emotional physical abuse, you don't know whether your relationship with the problem is to you or your partner until you stop reacting to your partner.

49:46So if I'm in a relationship and I come with a bunch of complaints and I say why it's working, but I'm reacting, you know, they're saying something that I'm getting upset about it or I'm getting hurt about it or I'm going resentful or I'm shutting down or I'm whatever it is, until they can have any kind of response. And I can really just be empathic. I can listen without taking it personally. I cannot defend myself. I can just seek to understand. I'm not able to judge the health of my relationship. I realize that was a little bit of a tangent. Not at all. I make sense. What would you say to the people who do continue to find themselves repeating the same patterns, whether it's their perspective of the world, their perspective of relationships, the kinds of people that they are attracted to or attract?

50:32What are the first places that those people should look? Yeah, I think there's two sides of it, right? There are maybe there's three sides of it, right? In a relationship, there's three entities. There's you. There's the other person, and then there's a relationship itself as a third entity, right? So I think we can look at, I think we can kind of look at all three of those. So one side is understand, again, like attachment theory is so trendy right now that I don't even need to talk about it because everyone knows it, but when I first talked about it, it was really new stuff. But understanding that we're wired a certain way because we love what's familiar.

51:06That's the easiest way to think about stuff. We love what's familiar. So consequently, if you had a narcissistic parent, you're probably going to try to meet some form of narcissist and then try to get seen by them and lead you to immense frustration. Or you had an abandoning parent, you're going to choose somebody who is not emotionally there or not physically there or replicating that for you in some way, you're going to try to heal your child through trying to get them to be there to be seen through all these things. And I think like so step one is heal yourself instead of trying to expect someone else to heal you.

51:45So that goes against what was that word you said about the relationships where we use each other. Confluent relationships. So so step one is like what's that classic book on self esteem that in rands like Nathan Nathaniel Brandon. He really said about we attract people who are at our level of self esteem. So whenever someone's, by the way, I hope I'm not throwing too many ideas, I'm going to place it once. So whenever someone, I just love these subjects, they're so fun to talk about. So whenever somebody is saying complaining about their partner, my brain, I'm always thinking you're dating them or you're married to them like what way in which way are you and equal that's not that your partner is, you're so emotionally mature and your partner so emotionally immature.

52:28You're dating each other, you're attracting your own level of that. Maybe you're the flip side of the same coin, but it's the same coin. So the first thing is raising your own level of like emotional health, healing those childhood patterns and wounds, working on the self -esteem piece. Like you want to track better people, just like literally become a better person, right? All those lit, that list you have of everything that you need in a relationship, go look at yourself with that list and you embody those and you'll find that person. You know, I love Byron Katie's four questions. and the best part about them is by by R &KD has those four questions where you can challenge your beliefs.

53:06So the fifth thing is the turnaround and that's changed my life. And here's like a shortcut for using it. If I ever tell myself a story that person's annoying, the turnaround is, and I can list the reason they're like, I'd say, I'm annoying. Then I can think of all the reasons I'm annoying, right? I can get that my partner's never there for me. One of the ways in which I'm not there for the partners, if I turn things around, my accusation for the people to myself, I can usually see. we can all see usually, but I can usually see I'm not, I'm just isn't perfect. So, first step is with yourself. But the challenge in that is, is the best way to learn about how to, how to have a healthy relationship is to be in one.

53:46So, there's tools and skills you can have in a relationship that you can work on it. So, if you're in a relationship that, again, where you're not dating someone who was really toxic or toxic for you, is to like work on your own reactions. like literally, relationship is a system, right? And so if you change the piece of the system, you can control yourself, the whole system changes. And I can't tell you how many times, in my experience and other people's experience, that if I change how I react to things, and just respond instead of reacting, if I change some part of myself, the whole relationship changes, and all that energy, sorry man, I got so much to say on this.

54:23No, no, no, no, I'm enjoying it, honestly. Okay, all that energy people put into change in the partner never works. It never works. It just creates resentment and you're reenacting a parental figure they had when they were younger that criticized them, right? They signed up for that. And so if you just take that energy out, you work on yourself, you change, your partner will automatically change. Like they'll just change because the system changes. They'll say, what are you doing? You seem happier. What's going on for you? You're in that men's group, maybe I should be in this women's group or you're doing therapy who maybe I should get therapy too.

54:58Like, fuck man. Just like it's, call goes back to like, yeah, it all goes back to like the better you make yourself, the better relationships you'll be in and the better the world around you will start to look. What are the modalities that you've found best for unpicking these patterns? Yeah, I think there's a formula that I think of your eyebrows right? I love you. This is like podcast goal. Wait, there's a formula. Okay. So it's these three things. I think these work together.

55:32So people always talk about therapy doesn't work, but I think they're talking about talk therapy. And I agree that talk therapy is that great for a change because your problems were developed before you had. the intellectual capacity, the wounds happen emotionally. And so I think we need to heal them. It's best to heal them emotionally. So I think the formulas is these three things. So one is deep intensive experiences that are whether the workshops or things where you're really, really unpacking your wounds and you're just a bubble of tears on the ground. So some container where you can block off the outside world than all that social media you're talking about, and really break rip off the bandaid and just be a...

56:15What are some examples of that? Sure. My favorite, I'll say my favorite, the one that worked for me. And by the way, people's thing they say the best is usually the first thing they did that really worked. So my bias and the first thing that really worked for me was at the Meadows, which is a treatment center in Arizona, they have a program called the Survivors Program. And it's like an exorcism of your childhood wounds. Like you sit there in a chair like this and I literally felt like an exorcism. Um, and I remember leaving the therapy. And for the first time, I'm like, fuck this is who I am without all that shit, without all that baggage I was carrying from mom and dad and all my upbringing like, fuck this is who I really am.

56:58And then of course, you go back to a regular environment and the same shit happenings and you start having the same response, but now you have a target to get back to. people love the Hoffman process. I think the Hoffman process is very is amazing as well. The difference is it's this meadows is a you know it's psychiatric facility and you're getting one -on -one work. The Hoffman process is group work but it's also amazing. But here's the here's the thing I think anything you do where the person and yourself both have the intention of really getting better and it's a cult is going to be. Ensure it is not a cult.

57:37Here's how you know it's a cult. It's a cult. If part of the treatment involves you signing up other people for the work. Simple rule of thumb. I've been, because I do so much self -improvement stuff, I went to these ones that were culty. It was amazing to see how the brainwashing worked and how effective it was. They like create these loops within the self -improvement teachings that they then pull the strings on months or years later that get you to follow it like a robot. It's unbelievable. How interesting. I'm going to be at one more thought. Sorry. No, no. Keep going. We've got two more stages to get.

58:07Okay. So, this therapy of the meadows is called post -induction therapy speaking of cults. The idea is that your childhood is like a hypnotic induction. Your childhood is a cult. Nice. Is that your... I've got to show you a drink, right? Get it in here. Yeah. Okay. A little bit more. I don't know. I don't know. This is how you get these three -hour podcasts. That's correct. So your childhood is a hypnotic induction or you're being indoctrinated into a cult. The cult is whatever your parents believe, right? We all grub and so the post -induction therapy is unbrainwashing you from this cult you're in for the first 17 years.

58:41Which I love. What was that? Can you just briefly describe the process of, like acquisition and pruning that happens in the brain? Oh, sure. You talk about that before. Yeah, so I'll tell you what, I'll hit the two other things and I'll talk about that. Come back to that. Okay. So first one, just to round out that first stage of your three step process of becoming the ultimate human. Deep intensive workshop, like, you know, just one or two a year where you're just emotionally kind of where you're going through some sort of emotionally purging it. And what what are the principles of that modality that it's something which is emotionally intensive?

59:14Yeah, and multiple days. Yep. And in just a sort of safe container. Understood. Okay. There's one. Meaning that simply you're just trying to let, and then as everyone who's ever been to an amazing seminar or workshop knows, you get that high post seminar high and then you go back and do the same old shit, right? So step two is maintenance. Meaning we get this change and our brain gets set right and go back to our world and the same stuff that's happening. The brain starts to go askew again. So I want to talk about the men. So some sort of weekly accountability. So you can just keep being reminded of what direction your boat should be pointed in.

1:00:03Here's an awesome thing about these men's groups. And like I really, and I'm actually not saying go on Instagram and find somebody who's starting a men's group and join that. When I'm actually saying, when I say men's group, what I did was I took five or six people at my level of work, some people you know. And I'm worth the same place. Maybe we're half kids or marriage or divorce, whatever it is. And then we all chipped in for one therapist. So this is really affordable. It's cheaper than individual therapy. And group therapy has been like studied to be more effective. But what's amazing about group therapy is I can sit, say you're the therapist and you have a point of view.

1:00:41I can just say, well, you know, he's wrong. He doesn't know me like that's just his opinion and how he was learned how he was taught but if it's you and four other peers Well, I recommend and they're all saying I'm wrong like I don't Think you guys are right, but you're all saying it so there must be something there for me to explore. No, I'd hide yeah no, we're to hide and With a with a group between your weekly sessions with a therapist you can stay in touch with the group so I strongly recommended it's It's it's and you need the therapist there just for the accountability. So you don't go off on some just becomes a bro evening.

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1:02:23Check out. Big change workshops. Yep. Roundabout one to two year. Yeah. You know, or for whatever, we have one to two a year, just it could just be one every couple years. You know, I think the positive retreats are probably great. I haven't done that thing where you hold up in a solitary confinement therapy. Couple of friends have done that. Do they like it? Mixed bag. I mean, whether it's a darkness retreat, whether it's... Pedro Tia did, I think, three weeks of daily psychotherapy, which was basically like him being sort of locked in a... He was adamant after two weeks. I'm done. I'm completely sweet and they were like, you're not done.

1:03:06And he got real frustrated and then sure enough, day 19 of 21 or whatever was the day that everything happened. But yeah, there's a lot of these sort of intensive retreats. Then men's group or some kind of circling group. Some sort of like talk accountability. So with therapy or just a group, it doesn't even mean that a men's group or a men's group can be whenever, and the third thing is tools to use when you're in the moment of crisis. Meaning,

1:03:37okay, like a one simple tool is like, say, reparenting. So my issue in relationships was in measurement that a really dominant narcissistic mom is by the way a lot of people who were on that pick up artist's deduction world did. So a lot of the idea behind that is I was suffocated by the overpowering feminine and ever want to be victim. Go back to that story of the feminine again. So I'm going to learn a way to empower myself. So that's besides the neurodivergent narrative that's another group and out of curiosity was it was your mom situation? No, I wouldn't have said narcissistic, introverted, tried incredibly hard.

1:04:16I mean, only child. So an awful lot of care and sort of precious attention placed on me. Yeah, so it could so emphasized Narcissus there could be a like a super anxious or super depressed Parent would also sort of be in meshing because then your there needs come before your own sometimes what is in measurement Oh really, okay. Yeah, this is like the most important idea So I'll do it. I finished the third thing and I'll do the measurement and then there's another thing to get back to I'm worried this funny. I was like, are we gonna? I'm not gonna run out of stuff to talk about Yeah, we're gonna have to stop at some point because But again, like tools to use in a moment when you're in crisis.

1:04:53Yeah. And by the way, I want to say one thing, pay a compliment, which is when I listen to your podcast, you really let the guests talk a lot as you're doing so nicely to me. But you're also really connected and engaged and care about being said. And it's a wonderful balance. I was a little nervous because I love conversation dialogue that's connected like we're having and I just, and I do a great job of really thoughtfully listening and I let you guys go on for a while. Not at all. I'm continuing to draw it out of you. You're a font of interesting things, so let's keep going. Okay, so the third thing is tools to use in the moment.

1:05:30So meaning that, let's say I've learned that I was suffocated by the overwhelming parent. So when I ingrained my wife at the time, my... X, Y, Feature, my mother died. It's Feature made on my own. This is definitely the next book. Whatever this is, this is the book. It's the next day of the life journey. So... Conscious re -coupling. Conscious rat.

1:05:59So funny. It's gonna be a thing now. It's so ridiculous that... Conscious re -parenting. Yeah. So the repair and the thing is, when we get triggered or reactive at something our partner does, a funny that I said parent, because we're reenacting something that comes from our parent. So they're critical or they're, we make, people make up, my partner's making me do this. They're not making you do anything, they're not making big monogamous. You can literally do what you want. You're just there, just consequence. So it's all a choice. So anyway, anything we react to, we can stop and so the tool for me was even if she was hugging me out of love, I'd feel just suffocated by it because my parents, I was so, my mom was so needy and it sucked the life out of me, right?

1:06:49So I would just tell myself, hey, it's okay, she's not your mom. She's not trying to suffer. I got to be, she just loves you and is affectionate and really appreciates and cares about you. So relax. Just to get into the specifics there, is that you talking to yourself in almost sort of a, I noticed something arises, this emotional arises inside of me. I see it and then I begin to have a dialogue with myself about what that means. Yeah, having a dialogue with a part of myself that's reacting. We have, I love, you know, Gestalt therapy and I love these, what's his name, Rempo. I love these, I love looking at ourselves in parts.

1:07:24So I think of, I think of like there's a CEO, right? That's just your, that's just that your most balanced stable self, but what happens is some harder self takes over. So in this case, it's like the the the wounded child, right? I'll try to say it or child, but the wounded child who who who is like, oh, this is familiar. I better stop this from happening. Right? And then your executive function, your CEO, your admin, as you say, He says, hey, it's okay. I got this. You can relax. She's not your mom. You know, she's just trying to... You need to notice that that arises and step in. This is something I've been thinking about more.

1:08:03I'm doing my first sort of big pass through therapy. And I've done a lot of time doing mindfulness. But I actually found that a strong mindfulness practice caused me to let go of emotions before I actually looked at where they came from. That ability to sort of notice something arises and go, okay, just release and allow. That's fine and I was very very practiced with that it feels to me it feels like windscreen wipers So my practice from shins and young is see here feel so I would swipe left to do see I would swipe right to do here And I would swipe down to do feel and that's the way it would feel in my mind.

1:08:39It's like nothing's happening Right, it's just the way that I come to kind of I love that feel it. I love that. That's really good. That's really good What I noticed and what I've noticed since since spending a bit more time trying to integrate emotions and thinking about where the patterns come from and stuff like that, is that the mindfulness practice was fantastic at making me more effective, but because it allowed me, the emotions sort of flowed through me like a filter or something like that, there was less resistance, they just came up and went out. I never asked the question, why does this emotion continue to come up?

1:09:12That's it, I love what you said. And this speaks to like, it doesn't actually matter what you do, so whether you're doing, reparenting or you're doing C here, feel, Was that a way to see your feel? What you're doing is you're widening the space between the stimulus and your response. Right. Mindfulness gap. Right. So, whatever version of that you do, that's why people argue over what methods better, like literally any method that works is good enough, right? For you, if it's working, just keep doing it. So, what you're saying is a great example of the tools. So the three steps then are the deep intensive experiences, the weekly or regular accountability.

1:09:49and the tools in the moment. Give me one more tool that you found that's been high value for you. Couple of the tools I love. One is the first tool, one is another version of widened space between stimulus and response is if I can recognize, so I feel like anytime something goes wrong is like an opportunity to learn about yourself. So I can recognize that if I'm starting to get anxious about something or upset about something, and especially when a conversation or dialogue with someone, I feel maybe misunderstood, right? Often, maybe I'll, might feel misunderstood. And then I'll keep trying to drive the point into them to make sure they get it.

1:10:29And all it does is irritate them, and then I feel more of them misunderstood. And then I get more like, you know, abrasive with trying to make this point, and it's just a horrible sequence. So I can see, oh, I'm feeling this sort of, like, tightness in my heart and this, sort of this electricity to my wrist, and that's my sign before I'm in mind even knows it that I'm starting to get anxious about feeling misunderstood. So then what I'll do is I'll just whatever I'm at I'll just pause and I'll take a break for one second. Same with the phone. I'll say hold on one second I'll be right back. I'll walk away.

1:11:02I'll I say correct the lie. I'll correct the lie with the truth. Hey like you're not being misunderstood. They probably understand you and it's all good just like maybe understand them cool. And I think with the phone, sorry about that. So what were you saying? Or if I'm going to same in the conversation here, I'm like a step away to go to the restroom. Let's say I'm a conversation I can't leave like we're here in this podcast, right? I think to my head, I'll just switch my position and I'll think new moments and over here, there's a new moment over here and it can be a new person. It's reframing a little bit.

1:11:32Yeah, so that's funny that that relates to similarly to what you were doing in the game, but it's like an internal reframing as opposed to an external reframing. looking to create this different sense for me that I feel this way as opposed to how I want someone else to observe it. Right. The difference is when you're when you're doing this to yourself, you're in on the manipulation. Right. Yeah, you know the magician's trick. Right. I'm going back to what you were saying about you asked the question earlier of which we didn't get to about relationships and the game and is this stuff okay? Do you know relationship?

1:12:02I think any form of manipulation with the other person isn't aware of the game and the end goals is spiritually wrong. Yeah. Okay. Was there a final modality that you liked from that one from the third set? Oh, yeah. There's another one, man. It's my favorite thing. Like we could do. Let's just make a note to do a whole podcast out in the future. Absolutely. It's a nonviolent communication. Do you know that? No. How man is the great? Let's, let's, I'll do like a one minute thing and then go research. Let's do a whole thing. Okay. I just as he's useful told the teach people. And down. It's like, it's literally the greatest thing.

1:12:37It's an every at principle is radical. So first of all, the problem with non -violent communication is it's a horrible name. If you're on a date, you know, you meet someone on a... You know, you meet someone on a ryaf. You propose a date of non -violent communication. Where's your set point violent communication? Exactly, exactly. It sounds like something for like violent offenders.

1:13:00But so... And then the book by Marshall Rosenberg is incredibly boring. I literally couldn't finish the book. I feel like I couldn't finish it. But he does have like an audio kind of program. I think it's built as an audiobook. There's a picture of a hand holding a piece on it. First 20 minutes are really blurring and then it gets revolutionary. But so it's a system of communication that, as he would say, violence is when we are trying to criticize, judge, control, make right and wrong, punishment reward, or diagnosis like this is what's wrong with you. This is why you're doing that. And is anyone who's ever been in a business or personal relationship knows?

1:13:38Once you start, even if you're right, once you start criticizing, accusing, judging, the other person gets to defend some of the conversation doesn't go well. So, so what this, it's a form of communication that's really, really simple to learn. We could do the discussion, everyone will be experts, but it's hard to do. And resist our impulses to like start, start, start defending ourselves or blaming others. and it allows somebody, it honors what's alive in someone else. So it honors what's alive in someone else. So as an example, if you're in a relationship and your partner says, hey, you don't pay enough attention to me.

1:14:15And you could say, what do you mean? I don't pay enough attention. We were together on Tuesday, we were together on Wednesday. We woke up at head breakfast in the morning on Thursday. We just went to Sedona for the weekend. Like literally, what are you talking about? That's not honoring what's alive in them. That's defending and making them wrong. So NBC would be like, would be saying it sounds like you're upset. You're like, yeah, I'm upset. It sounds like maybe you need more connection. Yeah, yeah, I do. I do. I do more connection. And so for you, what are some things that maybe we could do that would like bring more connection to our lives?

1:14:45I'd love that too. Yeah, you know, it would be nice if we could just do this. And then you can say, well, I don't know if at the time do that, just because of work right right now, but what if instead, as soon as I finish this project, we do that. Oh, that would be amazing. Right? Like, is that much beautiful, more beautiful way to relate? Hmm. Well, get back to talking to Neely, one minute, but first I need to tell you about nomadic. Nomadic make the best luggage on the planet. This travel pack backpack is a complete game changer. If you haven't tried properly well engineered backpacks and luggage, it can change your life.

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1:15:51right now you can get a 20 % discount of everything site wide by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to nomatic .com slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom a checkout that's nomatic .com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout one of my favorite things to do with criticism for the podcast if someone says because you haven't had enough people from X perspective opinion viewpoint on. If it's someone that I think deserves a response, a lot of the time I'll say, interesting piece of feedback, who would you suggest? Who do you think would be really good from whatever it is?

1:16:28And it almost always neutralizes any of the antagonism that you see online. And I think it's because so little communication that we are used to now is done in a collaborative way and you can have that sort of adversarial antagonistic relationship bleed into your relationship too, your intimate relationship, because you want to be right. And if you see that your partner is misviewing the world and reality in some way, you're going to think, well, if I can just get them to see the truth, my truth, which may not be the truth at all, obviously. And even if you do get them to see your side. That's not their perspective.

1:17:09Their perspective is their truth. That is what they're seeing. Yeah. So yeah, that's very interesting. You just nailed it. That's it. Their perspectives, they're like the they're kind of what's true is they're thinking and feeling that and you can honor that truth that I ever making them right. That's that's happened or making that wrong. I would imagine that people probably have a concern about for one of about a time indulging a delusion. You know, this person, maybe you are right, and I have spent a ton of time with them recently, some people would be scared that by not correcting that incorrect view of how they're seeing the world, that this person is going to continue to sort of see this non -representative perspective.

1:17:53Whether you do it or not, they'll always continue to see it, because it's just a narrative. I think we all know if we've ever dated somebody who had real abandonment fears, that there's no amount of behavior on us that's going to change the way they feel about your lack of presence or not being a man. And like, you know what I mean? You could be them seven hours a day and they're like, oh, you're on your, you know, sorry, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And you check your phone once and they're like, I just feel so disconnected when you did that. Why'd you check your phone like that? And then you can decide.

1:18:21But if you just honor what's alive in them and you're, and this keeps going on, it's a pattern, then you can have another discussion in a way. Just say, hey, I love this. And this is the thing that's challenging for me. Can we discuss it? But we'll dive deep in NBC because there's a little formula. And there's a lot of radical thoughts attached to it that you can use when the energy's coming at you to just charge it. And also, so you don't set someone off. I can give you some examples later where things literally just created took a tense moment and created peace. That's awesome. I think a lot of people want that.

1:19:01Yeah, yeah, it's great and all the ideas attached to it are just mind -blowing. So Your other question was in measurement, right? But let me ask you you said you were going through this therapy would use course or this I'm just doing therapy twice a week What's your what's your what are the things you're doing? I just talk therapy classic psychotherapy. It's like psychodynamically informed in some ways I guess and I could probably lean into more of the psychodynamic stuff if I asked to I could get on the couch and point in the other direction and do the things And it's just the first time that I've ever done it consistently.

1:19:33So it's been a bit of an eye -opener, I guess. Yeah, yeah. I'd be interested if you ever done one of those things like we're talking about like the Meadows or the Hoffman process or anything like that. No, I'd like to. Yeah, I think we'd be great. I think it would just like crack yourself open a little bit and see what's there. Because we were talking about parents and stuff like that. like it, you seem to have something where you're, I don't know, like receiving hits, having two parts of yourself that you're wrestling with, like a very, very analytical part that's trying to understand things and with this great weightiness, other part of yourself that's emotional part that wants to be free.

1:20:13Yeah, I think, I've done quite a lot of reflection on this, and I realized that I'm a way more sensitive person than I let myself believe for most of my 20s. So I didn't like the idea of being sensitive or emotional. I was a club promoter for 15 years. This, you know, leader of one of the biggest events companies in the UK. I'm stood on the front door of nightclubs. Everyone's cool or in VIP and they're wearing expensive watches and it's, you know, like house music and hip hop and bottle service and all the rest of it. Like that's not the place to very easily show your sensitive side. Plus, I think I dissociated sensitivity with fragility and vulnerability and I didn't want to feel weak.

1:20:57I wanted to be seen as a man. I was unpopular and a bit bullied in school and socially quite awkward until probably my mid -twenties, to be honest. And then I think that meant that when I got into my twenties, I denied the sensitive aspect of myself. And then also another reason I didn't do it is that it didn't fit with the way that I presented. So, male model club promoted DJ, reality TV person a couple of years later. Also, kind of sensitive, cries at Christmas movies, you know, kind of desperately wants connection and affection and attention, and those two things didn't seem to make sense. And I wanted desperately to be understood by people.

1:21:38So, when there was discordance between what I felt and how I looked, I was prepared to nerf one of those so that it fitted in line with the other ones. So I think I denied the sensitive side of myself for a very long time. That's something that I'm still working through at the moment. And the other side, so that's the emotional side that I'm trying to integrate. And on the other side, the analytical side is just straight up fear of lack of safety. And if I can understand the exact process of how to gain muscle or improve my health or be more productive or become successful or make money or do all the rest of those things, the chaos of uncertainty out there in the world is brought under my control.

1:22:16That's why I'm such a fan of intentionalism and agency, because that gives me control over the path that my life is going forward. I'm no longer at the mercy of the whims of whatever the world is going to throw at me, I have control. And these two things are in conflict, right? Because not exclusively, but much of it is in conflict, because I want to embrace emotions and have a nature whilst also being the author of my own life and the architect the direction that I'm moving forward. And I think that for a lot of people, especially guys, but also girls too, this is an odd duality to kind of admit.

1:22:51I have sensitivities and emotions and needs and I want to be seen and I want to be affectionately validated by the people that I care about and people that I respect. And also I don't want to, I want to author the direction that this goes in. So it's kind of like these two things are in orbit with each other. And do you think it's control or the illusion of control? I don't know what the distinction would be. I mean, you know, as an example, I think a lot of people who are who have super strict diet philosophies, in a lot of cases maybe grew up in a household that's a little bit out of control and I'm not saying this is you, but they feel like, well, I can't control this outside world for whatever world.

1:23:32But if I control exactly what I eat, I feel safe. I'm just putting that in a poll. So, me, thankfully, around the health thing, it's not that much of a big deal. But one of the areas that it is more of a big deal is with regards to success and validation and sort of being required by the world around me, offering something so that I am needed, not quite the same as being wanted, but it's functionally pretty similar. But it's kind of a losing game. In fact, it's an out of control game because how people respond to you is out of your control. Of course. And so you're almost giving them your agency.

1:24:01So I think we know a trauma is at work in something when what we want is a game that's the opposite, right? So if you're saying, well, I need to control these things to be safe. Are we really safe? And are we giving away our control by being dependent on these things and dependent on other people's outcomes and things like that? And measurement. Yes, measurement. But then the other thing I wanted to ask you was, well, the emotional part of it. And I'm just kind of guessing. So you can just tell it correct me if I'm wrong or right here. But like what I was picking up is that Growing up in your household.

1:24:37I think it was just you and your mommy said no undead. I guess my thought was and Was there any version of like there wasn't space in your household for? Whatever your needs are that would be correct I think I subjugate my requirements and my desires in order to keep the peace in order to make everybody else Okay, like it doesn't matter about me. I'll happily be unhappy in order to not make someone else unhappy and what was the okay? you needed in your household? Just to not have, it's not that this was what was needed, but functionally what ended up happening was that I wouldn't make a fuss about things that I needed, especially emotionally.

1:25:12Well, that's it. That's where it's coming from. That other stuff are just symptoms of that. You were taught early on that your emotions, you're making a quote fuss is a burden to other people or it has negative effects on the household. than so not making fuss and keeping that in is your wiring, right? That's where you're wired. So it wasn't that being a balancer and a male model and a reality show. This is what the mask I had to wear. That was a mask that was comfortable and familiar to you. So when the job called for it, there you are to put it on. And measurement. And measurement. Yep. Tell me what is it?

1:25:52We have both it. I'll tell you, we'll do a measurement and then if we want we can do the brain thing and then we can wrap their sound good. Cool. Yeah, cool. Right. So it's interesting like, in measurement it's such an important concept and so few people still know it, which is, in measurement is the opposite of abandonment and that's why we don't recognize it. So if you're abandoning, we all know what abandonment, I think we know what abandonment is, which is there's an absent parent, but abandonment also is when a parent is emotionally absent. They can just be there present for you all the time, but just like being out there emotionally, whether it's because of addiction, whether they're just shut down emotionally themselves, whether they just are tough.

1:26:30And no chill love or don't chill emotions. This is what you're working on so you could be a great, not abandoning parents. So in abandonment, a parent's not there to meet your needs, whether emotional or physical. There's the short way of saying it. In a measurement, what do you think that is then? An over -reliance on each other, four emotional needs and support? Well, the child needs to rely on the parent. That's healthy parent. Healthy parenting is the child relies on the parent for their emotional and physical needs and they get them meant, right? And so the measurement is when the child's role is to meet the parent's needs.

1:27:10Here are some examples, right? And so we don't recognize this because abandonment is disempowering, like at least those cell, like if I mattered, that parent would still be, if I mattered, they'd care or they'd be here. Sometimes if we're like four or five and a parent passes away and we're too young, maybe three or two, we're too young, we can still take responsibility for that. You know, there are a lot of things that might, whatever the parent's intention is, it's the way we receive it. So, so, in measurement is examples are. So, examples in which children with their parents and needs could be.

1:27:48One is a parent who's really depressed and they're trying to cheer him up. I remember interviewing Jay Leno for Rolling Stone and his mom was super depressed and he was always trying to cheer her up and thus he becomes a comedian, right? It's, so sign of abandonment is, you know, feeling sorry for yourself. Sign of enmeshment is feeling sorry for the parent. So a highly anxious parent. So an example is if a parent is saying, the parent says, come home at this time because they feel like that's a good boundary to set. Sounds like healthy parenting. The parent saying, come home at this time because I'm going to worry about you.

1:28:25That's making you're worried, they're problem. And then the same behavior can be sort of in measuring. So, I like anxious, I like depressed. A lot of times a parent makes, in my case, makes a child your surrogate therapist, right? The parents come into you and complaining and talk about their life. And you're fulfilling the role of a therapist or of an emotional partner, right? If you're, so you can have a dad or a mom, when, I'll give you a quick story of this, when you're, when you're, when they make you their best friend or they make you like something that's reflected on their self -esteem.

1:28:58Daddy's little girl, mommy's little man, whatever it is. This is a meshment. I remember I was doing makeup for a TV thing and the makeup artist was saying she'd never been in a healthy relationship and she just like, at some point, her partner gets to needy and she breaks away. I'm like, oh, interesting. I bet you weren't meshed and I tell you what it is. She rolls up her sleeve and has a tattoo that and says daddy's little girl. So like, so basically what it is, when you're forced to preentify or adult yourself too soon, right? It could be just you're taking care of the family, you're feeling that role, or you're managing their divorce and making the peace in the family.

1:29:36You lose a part of your childhood. And so when your experience love again, you're like, oh no, oh no, I'm not doing this again, this is familiar. I'm not gonna be free. And so consequently people who are in meshed and tell me if this is your pattern or all They'll choose They see the role it's hard for them to have true independence because they see the roles to help and fix So they date projects they do people they can help and fix because if I can't help and fix you what good am I? That's my role, right? And then what happens after a while is the They realize they can't help and fix the partner the partners too needy they get resentful they start to break away or cheat or act out in some other way or just get resentful.

1:30:17So that's how do people unpick and meshment? Undoom and meshment? Yeah, and adult life. Yeah, I think like, sure, I think the steps are first is the, and this is goes for anything. First, you need the self awareness, right? Number one is you need to say in the self awareness saying this is how I raise, this is how I respond. Self awareness is the hardest step of everything because when we're self aware of shit, we usually keep doing it, then we just beat ourselves up after work, right? So the next step is what we talked about earlier, something, some sort of release, some sort of, you know, deep therapeutic work, we just release that energy.

1:30:54And then the other steps were kind of what we talked about doing the doing the repair and thing piece. And I think there's a forgiveness piece. People put it too soon, but I think that forgiving yourself and forgiving the other person and letting go of that energy. So I think we can sort of, I forget exactly the way I think about it, there's four or five steps of healing that starts with awareness and sort of the release and the accountability and the reparenting and the forgiveness. So interesting, man. You know, looking at why we behave the way that we do, again, as someone who's such a huge fan of being the author and architect of my own direction and then realizing that there's these patterns, maybe even pre -verbal, maybe even things that you can't remember, that are marrying you.

1:31:37From, you know, beyond the infant grave. Yeah, it's like parental, it's cultural, it's, you know, genetic, it's ancestral, they're all these strings. And I do think one of the goals of life is to recognize the strings and cut them and be free. Hmm. I think a lot of people, again, especially guys, are struggling with authenticity, with working out who they are. I think a lot of people would say something to the extent of I don't really know who I am. And you don't. You can always keep learning. I don't like the authenticity. By the way, I do understand authenticity in terms of who I'm presenting on the outside is who I am on the inside with appropriate boundaries.

1:32:23But I think when I talk to someone who's saying I'm trying to find my authentic self, like, man, it's like a mental game. How are you ever going to find your authentic self? like how you know which part of you is authentic because you and I, for example, have been through many phases in our life. And each time it felt very authentic, right? Right now we're relating authentically and I can only hope that four years from now we listen to this conversation and I'm like, God, what not. The fuck is it doing? It's talking about. So I have another way I think about it, which is because you see you had a quantify, so you appreciate this.

1:32:53Right? How do you measure authenticity? Right? What's the main? So the creative self versus the destructive self. So, destructive self is, you know, harmful to myself, harmful to others, making a mess of things, right? Breaking relationships, beating myself up versus the creative self, which is good to myself, good to others, putting great things out into the world. And so, I just think of my, is the behavior, if I can quantify creative destructive, it's an easier way that I can find a path of certainty or a more certain path, there's no certain path, but find a more clear path to move on. My favorite question around that is, what would you tomorrow want you today to do?

1:33:37What would you tomorrow want you today to do? You have this decision in front of you, whether or not to eat the cookie or not eat the cookie, whether or not to sleep with that girl or not to sleep with that girl, whether or not to say this particular thing in this particular way or reply to that tweet, what would you tomorrow want you today to do? I like that. And I like the perspective. Yeah, tomorrow is easier than thinking at the end of your life. Correct. It's too hard. It's way too hard. What's going to be on, do you really want this on your epigraph? Like, I have fucking no dude. Like, I don't know what I'm going to die.

1:34:05I don't know what next week's going to bring. But you can quite easily think, I'm going to wake up tomorrow with this decision in front of me. I'm considering making right now. It's a way of asking yourself, really? Like, is this after this am I going to have shame or not? Correct. It's regret minimization, but it's done on a time scale that's sufficiently tight in a feedback loop way that you can probably make it work. Yeah. I like that. I think that's a really good, that goes to that list of tools. Right? Like just having 10 nice tools that work for you and doing these other things like is awesome.

1:34:35And so I'll just answer your last question then we'll wrap because I don't want to be conscious on the exhaustion at which I, not an exhaustion, but I really feel like I don't know how long we've been talking about. I really, approaching to I was them. Okay, I think that's plenty. For everybody else. I could go and talk to you forever, but I want to have mercy on the people is at 1 .5 speed on their podcast app.

1:35:00That you were talking about the brain or the question, I think that I've got other questions. I'm such a storyteller that I always want to close all the loops that I try to read the things we don't get to. But you're asking about the way our brain is wired and the pruning and everything, right? And my caveat is, if this is not scientifically correct, then consider it a metaphor and a useful way of thinking. And the fact is, again, I hear people on the podcast and they always throw out research and sometimes you challenge them and ask where it's from. But literally, like most studies aren't replicable.

1:35:33And everything, like, we have a feeling and a thought and they look for facts to back it up. We don't, most people, almost no one works the other way around and the very few people who do are really amazing, right? But we just look for facts to back up our way we already feel and think about things, right? So these are the, this is my rationalization for my philosophy at Howard Wired, which again is true if you read the right articles like everything else. I think, by the way, I think the world needs a healthy sense of doubt about everything. I think uncertainty is another form of freedom too.

1:36:08Yeah, it's difficult for that to not tumble into cynicism, though. I think a lot of people have confused appropriate doubt for I can just be as cynical as I want. It's a cynical supposition. I think the other side of it is a spiritual position. Just say I don't know. I'm not sure. But I hear what you're saying is really important to you, and that's something you really believe in those studies did those things. That's really interesting. Cynicism is just saying, and it is like denial, believing in his acceptance. I think saying, I don't know, does the line, did that creative act book with Rick Ribbon?

1:36:47And he has this line, which I love, and I think about all the time, of connected detachment. What's that mean? Connected detachment to me means I'm detaching from all my, I'm connected in a way that I care and I'm relational with you, but I'm detached from whatever my thoughts and opinions and the way I think things should be. So I can stay connected, but detached from all these layers of stories we were talking about. That's the way. I mean, I think he was talking about a different context in the book, but I love that idea of connected detachment that that's a goal because it's easy to just detach.

1:37:19I don't know. So I'm not going to get involved versus connected detachment like I really care and whatever the outcome is, we don't know. It would be good or bad. You know, we can be giving the best advice possible, but someone, it could lead to something bad for someone, lead to something good for someone else we don't know. So anyway, long prologue. So we were talking about the way, and this is the way I think about trauma and this is the way I think about behavior and this is the way I think about myself. Which is, you know, we're born with certain predispositions and, you know, genetic predispositions.

1:37:51And I talked to one of the leading geneticists who said, most things are most, a lot of gene expressions are turned on and off by the environment itself. So you might have the gene, for example, for being a sociopath, but maybe some trauma has to happen to switch that on, whatever. So we're born with certain predispositions and resilience resilience. And then we land in this family and basically we have our brain like all the neurons, it's getting a little while so I might get some of the facts around but all the neurology the brain is there all the neurons there but the connections aren't made.

1:38:24So very early on the brain starts watering connections at a really rapid rate, right? So you're so so most of our lot of stuff happened pre -memory, but we but the pattern remains the same with their parents so like we were in bed and and and parents have maybe a cry out philosophy, right? So they have a cry out philosophy means we're crying and we're hungry, but our and our needs aren't met and that After a certain amount of time becomes a pattern which is no one's gonna meet my needs I need to meet them myself and these are the people who are afraid to ask for help, let's say so So for the first three years, the brain is like putting these neural connections together at a rapid, huge rate.

1:39:02They're just, I think the three -year -old brain has more neural connections than the adult brain. And after three, this process, and again, roughly this process called pruning takes place where the connections you don't need start disappearing. And then this brain, where you built all these connections, removed what you didn't need, now becomes the prison you live in. And so can you start to recognize that this thought, this belief, this behavior I have was wired in because of these certain things. And now I can make the choice going back to agency and control to say, how can I can rewired this with these tools at every time here's a tool and being compassionate with ourselves because these were wired in for 17 or 18 years.

1:39:45So it's going to take a little while to get the new behavior going and sometimes you'll backslide and fall back and get cynical and say what's the point. And just if you're patient with yourself and you're consistent, you can really, really change your beliefs about yourself and the way you think. And I think that's one of the purposes of life. What's your advice for people who want more self -compassion in that way? A lot of the people listening to it. Here's a tool for that. Here's a tool for that. I think one thing we do is when you were saying earlier about being a bouncer and you were saying, or you're saying, I'm not someone who expresses about it.

1:40:16we said it was an eye statement like I don't really express myself emotionally right? I'm not the person who does that. I think anytime you're making an eye statement, you can actually correct that because that's not who you are. You can say is expressing myself emotionally wasn't something that was encouraged or I felt safe doing in my household consequently. I don't do it now. And then you're not owning that anymore. To lack about identification with it. Right. So in the same way, something I did is I realized, let's say I'm always, Sam parking or something. I was, when I moved out of life, I was a horrible driver and I'd always hit the curb.

1:40:51Is that my friends called me Kirby because I always hit the curb when I was driving. So I'd be driving at the curb and like, oh God, I'm such an idiot, right? So as soon as I catch myself, talking to myself in a non compassionate way, I'll stop and I'll literally imagine throwing the thought on my head. I sometimes even make the gesture with my hand if they're the thought on my head. I'll correct them with the truth, which is, He could just learn how to drive and you hit the curb and that's okay. And so when we talked about repairanting earlier, most of us who lack self -compassion or being the parents to ourselves that we had, whether that parent was critical, again, maybe for the right reasons.

1:41:29I'm not saying your parents are doing the best they can. We're not blaming the parents. We're just looking at these as variables that make us who we are. There's no blame. But so a critical parent, they might want the best for you again. I was reading most hours of letter with his dad father and oh my god his father is a fucking If you cut her hair tonight his father's just always criticizing for everything's always doing it for the wrong He's always good after rising and most arts even like hey, hey dad. Don't worry about this The dad's like you tell me not to worry, but I need to worry because you're like this and you're gonna do this and so consequently We talked to ourselves like the parent we had and the the Workaround is we want to talk to ourselves like the parent we needed not the parent we had So self -compassion is talking to yourself like the parent you needed and not the parent you had.

1:42:12Yeah, any inner voice I think is usually the echo unless you've done a ton of self -work is almost always the echo of an outer voice that you once had. I've got this great story about Churchill that I need to tell you. Yeah, tell me. In September 1893 Churchill was admitted on his third attempt to the San Terst Military College. He wrote to his father, I was so glad to be able to send you the good news on Thursday. His father, a former chancellor of the ex -checker and leader of the House of Commons, wrote back a week later,

1:43:03failure you committed and undergo, I no longer attach the slightest weight to anything you may say. If you cannot prevent yourself from leading the idle, useless, unprofitable life that you had during your school days, you will become a mere social wasteroll. One of the hundreds of public school failures you will degenerate into a shabby and happy and futile existence. You will have to bear the blame for all such misfortunes. Your mother sent her love. Churchill was 19. Wow. By the way, you read that so well that I felt the heat, the sting of the discipline. And do you have a date with your father?

1:43:35Disclare in that. No, mum was more the disciplinarian, I think. Yeah, but you read it so sternly, I felt it. It's just, I think anyone that's been held to high standards, I certainly was held to high standards, and that's something that resonates. The reason that that story sort of really hits me is you've got maybe one of the greatest, greatest leader of the 20th century, being told, happy, go lucky, Haram's Garam's style of work, you're going to be a social waste role. Like I no longer attach even the slightest sense of honesty or truth to anything that you're ever going to tell me. And it makes me feel sad for Churchill, you know, whatever it was June 30th, 1945, V -Day.

1:44:11And I bet that even after defeating the Nazis, he probably still didn't feel like he was enough. And this is the next book I'm writing. So I might use that letter in there if that's cool. Absolutely. He's okay with Mr. Churchill. But thank you for that. Because they're in the next book I'm writing. And this maybe we'll wrap here is called the it's called The Power of low self -esteem. I love that title. Yeah. Wow. And it's really about how these A, it's how these great figures had really low self -esteem and we do great things because we, it's okay to not feel like you're enough and let that inspire you to do great things.

1:44:43You know? Wow. Dude, I love the title. I absolutely adore the title of that. And so maybe the greatest self -compassion can have for ourselves is being compassionate for ourselves when we don't have self -compassion for herself. Meaning, meaning and meaning that like listen we're never going to have control over everything as we're saying earlier. We're never going to be perfect. We never get rid of all our trauma. We're never going to always love ourselves. We're never going to feel like we fit in and belong and accepting that there's like that that there's a reason for that and it's great to someone's fit you don't belong.

1:45:17Feel like you don't belong because maybe you're nicer to people because you want to belong. It's great to feel maybe like you haven't done enough because you're going to want to do more and improve the world. So all these things and set us starting for perfection, we can see the gifts in them. . . . . . And that's okay. I think that's, it's very interesting. I've spent so much time over the last probably three or four years being obsessed by the price that elite performers pay to be the person that you admire. Elon Musk was on the Lexus show about six months ago. And he, you know, he talking about Richard Smann in the world, doing robot dances on stage in Japan and sending cars into space and stuff.

1:45:53And Lex asks, sort of, what's the texture of your mind like? And Elon thinks for a second, he says, my mind is a storm. Most people would think that they want to be me, but they don't know, they don't understand. And I'm obsessed with that question about the price that people that we admire pay to be the person that we admire. That's exactly it. When you said about Elon, you can go back to having empathy. So some people might say, like, what's you doing on Twitter? This is toxic that whatever it is, whatever your opinions may be, you can say, okay, here's a person who Needs to be in chaos and intensity just to feel normal.

1:46:28He's replicating that and it's not about anything else Neil Strauss, ladies and gentlemen, Neil. I really appreciate you. It's been so Great to catch you up. It's been a long time coming What should people expect from you over the next however long? What are you working on?

1:46:45I'm just, I'm just to do it just the next new books. I'm really into the, we didn't even talk about these podcasts where I kind of find missing people or. I love them. Why should people go? What's that one called? The new one's called to die for. It's like about a Russian seducer, one who was trained in seduction, but the reverse side of it to like get the secrets from men and sometimes kill them. Wow. And it's fascinating by the way which is so when I interviewed her She hot You have to wash it But but um she In this case like anything else it doesn't rematter. It's how you use what you have Let's say but a lot of things she was learning in like the early 2000s in the FSB the kind of successor to the KGB Was like exactly what the pickup artists were doing at the same time Wow, she's the female Neil.

1:47:35It was fascinating. But more vicious and deadly. Yeah. That's awesome. So people can check that one out. What's that called? To die for. To die for. And you've done some other. Oh, to live in Diana L .A. was like a missing bride. And like I think I just followed my whatever I'm excited and curious about. I just followed this. No, but it was just someone missing in our neighborhood and myself and angered my wife at the time and a couple of neighbors. Mike, who he should have on the show, Mike Anzerger from Inkybus. He's a great brilliant guy. Him and his wife, our neighbors, and Marie. We just try to help.

1:48:09And so that was this to live in Diana La podcast. People should also follow you on Instagram. I very much appreciate your pithy aphorisms on there. My favorite one from last show, which I must have repurposed gazillion times unspoken expectations of premeditated resentments. And that might be the quote from a therapist in the game. That's fine. You were the one that repurposed. But it's such a good line and we're close to it because it's a good thing to think about unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. It's so, so deep. No, normal. Nail, I appreciate you. Thank you, Mark. Thank you.