#827 - Whitney Cummings - Why Is Everyone So Emotionally Fragile?

23:39And oh yeah, yeah, I do that too. But you get to 22 or whatever is a guy and no one is talking about that. No one's asking their friend over a beer, what him and his girlfriend, or one night stand get up to in the bedroom. It makes my fucking toes cold to think about that. Because then you're just imagining your friend having sex. Kind of. It seems sort of like a bit of an invasion of privacy. You're basically asking to kind of imagine your mate's girlfriend doing that. It's a little bit crossing the boundary with him too. like what is it? You're asking this because you want to imagine me and what I'm doing.

24:18And then I know that's just something a bit sort of fucking no. Like that's your area. Yeah. I don't think that's the same with girls. I'm maybe an anomaly because a couple things. For me, my biggest turn on in a relationship is respecting the person. And if I fucking gay turn on to such a shit turn on. It wants to be respected. Okay. So if I say money while you respect me. If I say money, I'm disgusting. If I say a car, I'm disgusting. If I say a good job, I'm disgusting. But if I say I respect him, I'm an idiot. I know a good set of shoulders. I don't know. Well, I respect that. If you put time and energy into respecting yourself, I think.

24:58But I always think that whenever I talk to my guy friends and girlfriends, if you're gossiping about your person with other people, you might not respect that person. I found that in the past, from like, yeah, is this normal in the bedroom? Or he did this in the bedroom. I'm like, oh, I don't respect him enough because I'm willing to share this, you know? All right, it's an invasion of privacy that you're opening up because you don't actually care. It's official. Yeah, or it's like, I don't respect this person. Now I'm gonna let everybody else have this thing in their head that he's a goofball or whatever, you know?

25:25So I stop, if I found myself doing that, I would just end the relationship because I'm like, oh, that's a first indication. I mean, I'm gossiping about my person. I really think that no matter, I mean, I always tell my girlfriends, I don't wanna hear about your guy's porn addiction. I don't wanna hear that it was texting with another girl because you're gonna break up if you're already telling me that. Well, how many, just thinking about sort of the actual public front showing of this, how many podcasts owned by Spotify, bought by Spotify, are girl talk, it's girl talk with fucking Cindy and Lindsay and all they do is talk about their one night stands and what happened, blah blah, and this is the position that I like.

25:58And if you've tried it to do this way, I know of no, even the most dejan artist red pill manosphere podcast, do not get to that. There was a brief period where there was this odd campaign where going down long girls with gay was a sort of movement that was being pushed by it. Why? Because it's like sub or something. Yeah, kind of. Sort of being the woman. Yeah, exactly. Beyond that. It's like sucking her daggers on. Yeah, kind of. I honestly think that was it. So now I'm trans girl, maybe for sure. But beyond that, literally, that was the closest I've ever heard. the sort of, you know, most unencumbered total explicit open door policy guy podcast get to one that there's a whole fucking subgenre of them for checks.

26:49So it's just, it's real interesting, you know. And it's also like, you know, I always try to go how is this existed? Just look different, you know, like the way that I stopped checking my email every 10 minutes is I just visualized a mansion if 30 years ago. You watch someone walk to their mailbox, check if there was anything, and then walk back in the house. And then 10 minutes later, we're doing the same thing. How is it different? This is a crazy person. Do I have any mail? Do I have any mail? It's like, I think that is it equivalent to guys in their garage have a poster of a hot girl? That kind of thing.

27:24I think men are more visual and women are more verbal. So guys have sports illustrated swimsuit edition and that's kind of how you share in gossiping about girls, but it's like just looking at hot girls or something, whereas we don't have that, you know, that really. It's sort of more like this guy called me and they didn't text me back and like, fuck, come, you know. And my bigger, you know, I think it's fine. It's where America free speech, whatever. I think the bigger thing is when it's motivated by revenge or motivated by wanting to be a victim in some way or, you know, that, that I don't think embarrassing men or trying to humiliate men is a solution to any of their problems and it to me just seems very self -destructive, you know, because what kind of your whole thing is like, man or trash, but no great man is going to ever want to be with you if this is what you do.

28:12You're not going to attract a king if you're acting like this. You know, so it is what it is. I think that I try to just go, you know what, the world needs contrast and you wouldn't be you if they weren't them. But I think the more interesting thing with talking about what goes on in the bedroom, I think there is value in sharing intel of like, a guy did this. Is that weird? Is It's like, guys going, my girl keeps asking me to hit her. I don't want to do that. I don't want to hit her. That's different though. What I'm talking about is the sort of this weird, open door policy about he does this, and I like it, and he tries that, and we try to do this thing.

28:50I don't know, maybe it's just the, yeah, maybe it's just the all guys are still sort of sexually un -inlightened, and they're not prepared to speak to their friends about it, or maybe they think that it's something, it's like, I don't know. I don't know. Nick about that kind of open door policy. And I think most girls think that most guys talk like that around their friends. I just wanted to set records. You know that, I wonder if he's talking about how we have sex. You can imagine one of those memes and it's turned over. And it's fucking Warhammer 40k. Or, you know, he's like planning his fucking end of your accounts or something.

29:22Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not guys talking about sex. I feel like that needed to be. I think that's, yeah, no, I really appreciate you saying that. All my friends are male comedians. And so this is probably not where I can weigh in the most. I've heard things like light bulb pussy, battery pussy. I've heard what's light bulb pussy. It's it's it's when and girls vagina like is tight and then it's like not as tight. Oh inside. Oh, what it's like that way. It's going that way. Well, yeah, you know, like a light bulb. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but in that way. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, so I thought you would it looks like one on the outside.

30:00Oh, yeah, sorry. Like things like that I've like heard this from just guys Talks if it was the other way if it was a light bulb that was upright It would be like one of those things that you you know when you need to hook a painting onto a yeah Yeah, yeah, I screw and you're like well, dude if it's too big at the top You can just move it down to the bottom, but that I know yeah like spacious roomy inside I one of those good New York apartments where you think there's no way that it's gonna be able to fit and you get And you're like, yeah, yeah, it's not bad. Vietnamese family could live in here.

30:30I just think sex is so, just so like, I don't know, porn or whatever. It's just so everywhere. I mean, I'm more interested in talking about when you're in a relationship. Like, does your guy wash his jeans? Mine, are we, things like that? Are you washing your jeans, Chris? No, I'm, no. Never. Never. The mate does that. It's a, oh no. But that's not what I mean. There's some jeans that aren't supposed to be washed. You're supposed to put them in the freezer What? Washing your jeans. Who puts jeans in the freezer? What does that do? Okay, there's certain raw denim that you're not who spent too much time around Bobbie Lee You've spent way too much time around Asians that spend a grand on a pair of fucking jeans Very true.

31:14I can tell I can tell I just these hipster fucking Overpay holy words, you know what you're actually very right if everybody came through to Austin Texas and more square -toed boots and a fucking cowboy hat. I know this is gonna get me in a lot of trouble. Bring it, but I'm very fascinated now. And I, you know, I don't think it's just having a kid. I think it's, I've had a lot of relationships and they haven't worked. And I'm working on this bit about how like when you, you know, you're like younger and you're like, I don't need a man, I'm an independent woman, man are trash, ta -da -da -da -da -da -da, and you get older and you're like, maybe it's me.

31:52like what are the odds, you know, like at the very least I make bad choices. Yeah. At the very least I stayed for two years and that thing that I'm like he's an idiot like I stayed. I think there's something really powerful about having an epiphany that you're kind of toxic. Well, you're the common denominator between all of your relationships. That's it. And just go, you know what, let me just clean up my side of the street and let me just see what happens. You and sort of see what happens. And I've always been kind of trained to believe don't be a gold digger. Do not need money from a man. Do not need anything from them.

32:30And also don't let them take care of you because like that's not their job or you're gonna be needy, you're gonna be a succubus, you're gonna be a parasite. Like as I grew up, I'm just gonna say it. My mom was, you know, worked very hard but she also had to date men for money. That's what I watched. And I watched her being trapped in relationships that she didn't wanna be in. That were weird with like creeps, that were creepy with me and all this kind of stuff. And I was just sort of like, I never want to be that, I definitely over corrected. And I'm seeing a lot of these over corrections. And now maybe I'm over correcting again, but I at least want to kind of try, I love the idea of, look, I'm not going full -trot wife, don't everybody panic, I still dress like a bull dyke, don't worry.

33:07But I love, I want to be able to take care of a man. Like I want to be able to take care of, when I see these women, they're like, I don't cook, I don't clean, I'm like, what do you do? You dirty, hungry bitch. What do you do? So, are you proud of that? Are you proud that you don't cook? How do you feed your stuff? Is that cool? Like, why isn't cooking cool? It's like you're using fire and knives. Why can't this be, why does it have to be, why is this lame? Like, I'm genuinely shocked. Is someone that didn't do that for a long time, because I was just literally too busy, you know? And it worked, you know?

33:41Whatever my high functioning autism, I was like, you're gonna do that, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna just eat a go -gret in the car because of how ambitious I was. But now I'm just sort of like, don't you, what's the pride around all of this? I'm useless. Is like, why is that something to be proud of? Like for me, I also enjoy it. You know, I think everyone's sort of a, I'm not doing anything for him until you meet the person that you actually just want to do it for. That's why people have got such a problem with anyone that has a sort of big stake in the ground. This is me, I'm not gonna have kids, I'm not gonna get married, I'm not gonna do the whatever.

34:16And then someone pivots and then they don't ever retro point at the thing, I was wrong guys. I apologize about that or whatever. Or what everybody should do as far as I can tell. Like I'm chronically uncertain about everything, right? I don't know. Every smart person I think is. Okay, well yeah, maybe. And I think I have no idea if this is the right answer to this thing, this is something I'm trying at the moment. I think to me this seems to be the right way to go about stuff right now. And this is where people get a problem with, it's one of the reasons that there is a contingent of the internet that's got a problem with human stuff.

34:49To say, protocols and he's saying that it's the way to be done. I'm pretty sure that he's saying this seems to be what the evidence just might work. Take what you like and leave the rest. Yeah. You know, take what works for you, you know, but I think like, you know, I love what you're saying because I think to me, it's like, you didn't know you were, I'm doing nightclubs, I'm doing this, and then you found the podcast, and then everything clicked into place. Mm -hmm. This is it. I think it's probably the same with a person. I think it's the same with a job. I think you like really know who you are until you find the thing.

35:19And you're like, oh, it's this. It was here the whole time. You know, last time we were together, you told me to do equine therapy. And then I went and did it and I called it, what do I call it? Horse meditation. And the lady didn't like the woman that was taking it was, it would shed mixed opinions on that. But my story for the horse meditation. Horse meditation. Yeah, yeah. Don't say in an English accent. That's why she was crumpled. So it happens with Error1, everyone outside of Error1 doing Hall's meditation. And yeah, I, that was really interesting because reflecting on what it is that you want from an animal, what it is that you need from somebody else.

35:54And I started going down a codependency learning rabbit hole after we spoke last time. I think he suggested a couple of books to me, which I'm still partway through. But can you explain codependency seems to be this thing that kind of looks below the surface, the most people, maybe everybody's got some degree of it, and then some people, it's the driving force that's in their life. And the first time that I'd ever heard of it was when I spoke to you, and it seems kind of important. Can you please just promise me that you'll stop me if I'm rambling or if I'm not being clear? All the time. OK, so codependence, I like a good definition.

36:29I live for a good platitude, aphorism. Codependence, the definition that I like to work with, is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others or the perceived discomfort, right? Because we might just be projecting. My specific codependence came from an early age feeling like I need to take care of the feelings of the adults. I need a behavior certain way to get someone to act like this. Ultimately it is the same way an alcoholic is alcohol makes their life unmanageable, right? in addiction is, you know, continuing to do something despite your life becoming unmanageable. Poor and making your life unmanageable, you might be a sex addict, alcohol making your life unmanageable.

37:08You can still drink alcohol, but if you can make it to work the next day, not unmanageable. If you can't make it to work the next day, unmanageable, right? Addiction. Continuing to do the same behavior despite negative consequences, right? So in, you know, A .A, you're addicted to alcohol and N .A. You're addicted to narcotics. In Alonon, ACA, you're addicted to perfectionism, people pleasing, shape shifting to try to control other people's behavior, you know, self deprivation is another part of codependence. So codependent, we hear a lot, like sometimes it just sounds like you spend a lot of time with a person.

37:41That's not necessarily codependent. There's codependent and interdependent, right? And codependent is you're getting your emotional needs met through another person, whereas interdependent means you're getting your own emotional needs met internally. So addiction being, I'm getting my internal needs met with external things, drugs, sex, and with us, it's other people. It's almost like being addicted to a person. Love addiction is a very close concentric circle, but that's kind of another thing. So if you and I are dating and we're codependent, or you and I are just friends and we're codependent, it is like you send me a text.

38:11I just have to respond right away. There's a fear that my behavior is going to make you uncomfortable, or that my behavior is going to make you leave me abandon me, judge me, right? So ultimately, it becomes an addiction to control, trying to control someone and also perceptions, behaviors, addictions, choices, right? What's the usual root cause? Or what are the most common root causes? A lot of things. In my experience, growing up in a home where the adults didn't get their emotional needs met internally, so they were checking out, they were drinking, they were using, they were fighting something else, and then the child as a result goes, I need to try to fix this.

38:52We're parentified children, we tend to be. So we had to be adults too young, right? So instead of just being kids, we had to be like, mom and dad are fighting. What if I get good grades? What if I just do written basketball? What if I just clean this thing? Or for me, there was also a lot of neglect and there was a lot of, I'm on my own, right? No one's going to take care of me. I can't trust anybody. I just need, you know, and this belief that your behavior can control someone else's behavior. And it's magical thinking and it comes from not having like consistency, not having people that were fair around you, you know, because alcoholism, we say like if you grow up in alcohol at home, many times you end up being a codependent, but alcoholism is defined, you know, look, in order for alcoholism to be present, alcohol doesn't have to be present.

39:35So when you go through and do an inventory in this particular program, which if you're codependent, you don't necessarily have to do this whole program, it is just kind of like a school for your brain. It's just like a way to repair yourself and have mature adult expectations of people in yourself. So, you know, all of the defense mechanisms that you developed as a child to survive your family system. And by survive, it doesn't mean it was life or death. You know, it might just been on Christmas, your mom puts a ton of pressure on everybody and everything has to be perfect. And every, the table is set perfectly.

40:02That's a form of like alcoholism, this workaholism, you know, obsession with perfectionism. If you grew up around that, it's a way to sort of repair it yourself so that you are not acting from the point of view of your inner child, who is trying to solve everybody else's problems, manage everybody else, care to take other people, you know, get yourself a steam from your productivity, right? And your usefulness to others. That's a big one, you know, is like, I need to rescue everyone. I need to save everyone. We've all been in those relationships where you like me to save them. You need to rescue them.

40:31And then you resent them so much, you know? So, co -dependence also has this sort of like, you know, you think you're just really nice. You think you're just like, you know, being a great person. You think you're just like this angel that's rescuing people, but what you're really doing when you're gonna rescue a girl, say, you know, this girl, she doesn't have her bills paid. She's in a bad relationship. She's got that credit. I mean essentially what you're saying is like you wouldn't be able to survive without me You couldn't do this without me so ultimately a lot of times our Help is coming from a place of arrogance and playing God and trying to change people trying to fix people Desperation to I'm getting guests to in the three.

41:09I'm smothering my micro marga Degree. I'm sorry mothering micro managing and murdering You know, those three things. Do you get your self -esteem from being useful to other people, from rescuing other people? Where are you in terms of your ability to like yourself without other people's approval? Does your mood, is it dictated by other people's perception of you, your achievements? You know, it's a tricky one, because it's something that it's the only, quote, addiction that you get rewarded for. You know, it's if you're a drunk and you actually at a bar, are they kick you out? If you're codependent, you're like, no, I'm gonna drive them home, I got them, I'm gonna take them home and then I'm gonna take them to rehab and then I'm gonna get them sober and then I'm gonna, you know, and it's like, well, you're this hero.

41:55But I might have - You've got the elements of being charitable, being caring, being sensitive. But that's also selfish sometimes. Well, I guess it depends on where the compulsion's coming from. It's so fascinating because all of these things, the dose kind of is the poison here. doing something nice for somebody else, caring about somebody else, having empathy, we really supposed to expect that we would be able to detach our own self -esteem from the opinions of other people, our social species. You should care about your opinion of you more than you care about other people's opinions of you, but assuming that you're ever going to not be able to care about other people's opinions of you, I think it's not gonna happen.

42:33Maybe there's some one in a thousand Michael Malice anarchist, middle finger type people that can go and do that, but I think their outliers, the problem being, where is this coming from? And it seems to me it's the drive, it's this need, if I do this, then I will be wanted, needed, accepted, validated by the world, not abandoned. And this is why it's so tricky, because the difference between kindness and co -dependence is the motive. So if I drive you to the airport, because I'm like, well, I want Christa like me, because I want him to put me on a story, and I want him to tell other people that I'm cool, and I'm trying to control, trying to make myself feel safe and I'm using you, right?

43:12That's dehumanizing you. But if I drive to the airport because we're friends and I want to talk to you and I want to hang out with you and you owe me nothing in return and I'm not keeping score, that's just friendship and that's just service and that's kindness. But it's one of those things where it's like other people can see if you're addicted to drugs, other people. But in co -dependence you have to fucking do it yourself. You have to hold yourself accountable, you know? Because ostensibly I might look like the nicest person in the world. But a lot of times if I'm overgifting. Like, I brought you a gift, and I don't know if I'm gonna give it to you.

43:39Like, I'm trying to decide if I should give it to you. This is a real thing. This is where code dependent, because I don't want you, I don't want to make our relationship transactional all of a sudden. You know what I mean? And I don't want you to be like, when I have to give her something. It depends, you know, am I gonna keep score? When someone's overgifting, am I doing it to make you owe me? Am I, are we entering in some kind of toxic contract where I've given you this thing? And, you know, it's actually, it's really interesting in the past. Over the span of about a year, I tried pretty much every green string that I could find, trying to work out which one was best.

44:07And I came across AG1 and I've stuck with it for over three years because it's the best. It's the most comprehensive, it's the most highly tested and the most rigorously formulated. AG1 genuinely care about holistic health, which is why I've got my mum to use it, I've got my dad to use it and tons of my friends as well. And if I found something better, I would switch, but I haven't, which is why I still use it. There is a 90 day money back guarantee. So if you're unsure about trying it, you can buy it completely risk -free, try it for a full three month period and if you don't like it, they will give you your money back.

44:38So if you want to replace your multivitamin and more, start with AG1. Right now you can get a year's free supply vitamin D3 and K2, five free AG1 travel packs and a 90 -day moneyback guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drink AG1 .com slash modern wisdom. That's drink AG1 .com slash modern wisdom. Does this mean a lot of the time if you're unwinding your your co -dependence that you're actually going to become a worse person in terms of your actions before you become a better person again? I think you'll become a worse person to people that want to use you and you will become a better person to healthy, balanced people.

45:18So when you get healthy, the sick get angry. So when you start taking care of yourself, when you start putting yourself first, when you start giving 50 % in a relationship instead of 90 % and then it'll feel to, I'm not a doctor, I'm not going to diagnose people, but borderline and narcissists, selfish, insecure people are going to go like, oh, so you're just ignoring me now? Hey, stranger, wherever you been. Let you know. So once you stop a lot of your codependent behaviors, there will be a little bit of a backlash. But then you realize, oh, yeah, these relationships were codependent. We were using each other.

45:47I was using them or, you know, once I went to recovery for codependence, I realized that most of my friends, I didn't even like them that much. I just like didn't know how to say no. And I did a lot of things out of obligation, you know? And I think it's probably better in part of the reason I'm getting tripped up is like sometimes it's better to just use specific examples that are helpful. So, you know, before I went into recovery for independence, I would get an invite to a birthday and I was like, I gotta go to this. I gotta go to this birthday party. I gotta go. We gotta swing by. And then another friend, ah, friend, another friend's having birthday.

46:13So I gotta stop at this one. I gotta stop at this one. And the implication there is like, if I don't go, what are they gonna cancel the party? Like, they're gonna be like, where's Whitney? Like, it's that I'm a piece of shit in the center of the universe thing. and because when you keep scores a codependent, you assume everybody else does. Oh, that's interesting. You know what I mean? So if you're the person's like, oh, well, Kristen, show up to my party. Okay, noted. I'm assuming that other people behave like that too. Chances are they would not even notice that I didn't show up. And I'm the person showing up at the party, I'm here.

46:41Okay, well, I gotta go to another party now. And I'm like, cool. Sick philosophy on life, just dragging yourself from party to party and making it about you. Like, why I have to go to another thing now? And I'm like, awesome. So no real friends, just a bunch of acquaintances that I felt obligated to run around and please, when I wasn't even pleasing, but I'm the person the party who's like, can I help you clean up? Can I do this? I didn't know how to just be enough and begin a conversation with someone. And here are some of the slogans that I love, because it's a simple program for complicated brains.

47:12We have complicated brains. Before you try to solve a problem, first make sure it's your problem. That blew my mind when I first came in. It was a go, a friend of mine is going through a breakup. I need to go over there and I need to start helping your packer stuff. So she it's like why am I solving someone else's problems? What am I my addiction was to get out of myself instead of checking out with drugs or alcohol? I was like I'm gonna check out was I'm gonna use someone else's problems to Disassociate and to get some self -esteem. That's how low myself a steam is that I need to go Rescue someone to feel good about myself, you know and It's again a really tricky thing because if a friend of mine said, you know, I'm in a really bad situation Someone just hit me.

47:51I'd be like, I'm on my way over, you know, but I wasn't doing it for that reason. Yeah, but she's like the motive thing comes in. It's kind of of a subconscious addiction to drama, which is ultimately adrenaline. And we forget about the internal drug cabinet. So where the external drug cabinet, you know, all those are, we can also get high internally. And I remember watching the Johnny Depp Amber her trial and I was glued to it. I couldn't get enough, because I was like, everyone needs to watch this because this is the apotheosis of internal drug cabinet. This is adrenaline addiction. We don't talk about this because no one sells adrenaline, right?

48:25When you subconsciously put yourself in situations, we're going to get a ton of adrenaline because adrenaline turns into dopamine. It's addictive. That's why toxic relationships are addictive. You know, it's like this feels bad, but it also I can't stop. And that was a big thing for me and co -dependence. I was like, why am I, you know, anyone who's like, I hate drama, that is a red flag get away from that person because, you know, you find yourself to subconsciously attracting, you know, to situations where there's going to be adrenaline. You know, look, there's also more about like ancestral roles and birth order, which I know you know a lot about and stuff too.

48:59I do believe like my epigenetic imprinting, you know, the neurochemicals that are emitted in utero. I think we've even talked about this. You're born addicted to the same way if your mom does crack. You're born addicted to. So when I had my, it was pregnant with my son, I was, if someone cut me off a traffic, I'd be like, Good luck. I would not allow any adrenaline because I know that I was conceived during a very acrimonious divorce, very dramatic shit. Also like a crack baby or an adrenaline baby. Literally. I basically did detox from adrenaline. I mean, I did 30 days no adrenaline. How do you do 30 days no adrenaline?

49:31You basically just block everyone. Fucking nightmare. You know, but you really look at yourself and just going to the common denominator on these toxic relationships. It's really your relationships and the choices you make do they feel like an obligation. Do you feel guilt or shame when you say no to people? Do you take care of yourself? For real? Do you floss? Are you feeding yourself well? I mean little things like that, where it's, are you putting other people's needs before yours in a way that's not cute? What are some of the ways that this can manifest in people's lives that they might not realize?

50:06when you become a boss and you can't not be friends with your employees or I see a lot of like HR issues and a lot of toxic work environments. I'm like, that's co -dependence. First of all, Johnny Depp Amber heard I was like, that's all co -dependent shit, you know. Little things, like, you hire someone because you're doing them a favor. You do a favor for someone. When does that go well? You do a favor for them, you give them a job. Okay, I'll mentor you. And then all of a sudden you're like, okay, you're not right for this, right? And now I'm gonna help you. And now we're, hang out, number friends.

50:43Now you want more because I, now you're entitled, like I enabled this situation. You know, I think hiring it gets very tricky. Self -depervation. I mean, co -dependence tend to be the people that don't go to doctors, forget we live in America. And it's a fortune to go to a doctor, but like not taking care of yourself. You know before I came into program like I wasn't consistently flossing. I wasn't getting my vision checked like I wasn't I had chronic migraines. It can really like manifest in your health as well, you know I Wasn't Sitting down reading I wasn't stretching like I would work out because I'm not much self -carn.

51:18I mean if any It's like a it's it's sort of yeah self -harm in a way If you're the person where before people come over like I have to clean up and I have to everything has to be perfect It's like, so are you friends with people that if all the dishes weren't clean, they'd be like, never mind. You know what I mean? And what you're doing is you're implying that everyone is shallow. As you maybe, like, would you judge someone for that? Ultimately, you do. It is a very judgmental kind of thing because you're assuming everybody else wouldn't accept you if you weren't perfect. And did they care enough?

51:51And the arrogance, yes. And the arrogance of thinking there is such a thing is perfection. My thing was perfection. You just have to be perfect at all times. And then it would be like, would hurt even more when someone didn't want me or rejected me. It's like, well, I'm perfect. I can't get me, you know, but that's not how things work, right? And I think that, um, hold on, I'm trying, I'm so overwhelmed because this is such a big topic and the pressure to talk about it and get it all in without being boring. I think you didn't agree. My brain just goes like, don't be boring. Don't be boring. You did a great job.

52:22But ultimately a big part of what it is is making sure you stay a victim. Okay, so I'm going to be so nice to you and give you so many presents and do so many amazing, martery things for you that you can never require them and Chris doesn't appreciate me. I love it's the people that get out of relationships and go, my problem is I just love too much. stop doing it for them then. You know, you're doing 90 % instead of 50%. So relationships should be 50, 50. So that's the trick about the tradwife thing. And you know, is if I'm, it doesn't count if I make you dinner and clean your shoes and do your laundry and do that.

53:05Well, how can you, oh, and you're gonna say this and you're gonna, oh, you're gonna text that person at, you know, 10 PM and I made dinner, that's co -dependence, right? Because I'm being so nice that the score is always off. It's a bargaining chip, you're keeping tally. And I always feel unappreciated, and I get to recreate the childhood circumstances or whatever familiar vibe of being a victim. And I see this glamourization of victims these days, and not true victims, but people that think, like if I'm a victim, I'm interesting, or I need to be a victim, because that's, I don't know, my nightmare is to be pitted.

53:40You know, I think before, I really valued being a martyr, I thought it meant you were strong, I thought it meant you were selfless, you know, I thought that was like life's purpose. And then I realized like, I'm not going to save anyone, arrest you anyone or be any value to anyone. If I'm sick all the time and doing it out of obligation, I wouldn't and it took, you know, going into recovery to go like, I would never want someone to hang out with me or come to my bird there or drive me whatever because they thought they had to, like how embarrassing. I would never want someone to stay with me and be like, I know this isn't going to work out, but I don't want to break our heart and stay with me.

54:15I'm embarrassing, you know? So it's kind of a selfishness that because you don't want to feel bad or for the other person to think you're a bad person. And I think a big part of success these days is like, you know, the linear relationship with the ability to have uncomfortable conversations and to be able to say no. And if people don't like you, not seeing it as they don't like me, seeing it as like, I've been rerouted to a different group of people that can handle directness. these people are just too sensitive to be in my life because I grew up around very sensitive people. A mom that cried, you know, like stuff like that.

54:47When you see that, you're like, the last thing I wanna do is make someone cry or make someone's upset. I make my needs known, make a man of somebody. I'm needless, wantless. The idea of like, people to apologize all the time, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. People that can't be direct. You know, when someone gets off the phone with me, it drives me nuts because it's so codependent. When someone's like, all right, well, I guess some, I'll let you get back to that. I'm like, can you just say you have to go? I'll be fine. You're implying that I can't handle someone getting off the phone. You know, but this kind of we live in this thing now where everyone's just like I'm so afraid to hurt someone else's feeling.

55:17Somebody else's emotional state is my responsibility. When did you guys go, we were fighting each other in fields. Like how do we get to this? Yeah, the funniest petri dish for this to happen in for me was Ubers. So I'd get into the back of an Uber and if I was on the phone, I'd like make this like groveling apology to the Uber driver who I evidently thought needed me to entertain him for the entirety of this journey. Sorry, I'm on the phone at the moment. Sorry. Yeah, I'm very good. Thank you. What's the thing? What is that saying? What is your judgment of him? But he needs me. Look at what a blessing I am to his life.

55:55Also, if I don't, he's incapable of looking after himself as he is. I need to step in and make sure that he's okay. And I'm on the phone and that's kind of rude. And I mean, you know, he has to be entertained by me for the entire exceeds. Not like he literally does this as a job every single day. And he's like, if I'm gonna listen to you talk to, there's a hundred episodes. I got a list of you. If I weren't here to entertain me, I can do that at any time on Spotify. You know, and yeah, it's that. And so it's taken me a long time to realize a lot of times my groveling, you know, being obsequious to people is actually insulting to them.

56:34And that's, and then I use that, like, oh, why don't I be codependent in that way? I don't want to insult this person, right? So I'm going to be direct. I'm going to be clear. I'm not going to grovel over people and infantilize them because when you infantilize someone, they all of a sudden start regressing emotionally and then you're in that jam, you know? So it's like if you're in, And if someone is like, and turns into the contract, it's kind of called human magnets syndrome. We're kind of like a certain type of person is going to be attracted to someone who's caretaky and people pleasy. I'm not going to say narcissists because that word is so, what is this thing now where if a guy breaks up with you, they're a narcissist, they're a love bomber, they are gaslighting you?

57:19Well, there's pretty much no normal relationship behavior that hasn't been turned by TikTok into some pathology. If you break up with someone, you're an abuser. Yeah. Now, I mean, getting your heart broken sucks. It used to be you just sort of like show up where you think they're going to be. You know, kind of me or whatever, like that you don't have to go online and say that they're toxic, narcissistic, gas lighter. And even if they are, if you're saying someone gasp let me for two years, you're just admitting that you fell for it. You're just like, I'm dumb. Like, is that it either way this isn't gonna go well for anyone?

57:56Like, why do this? You know, I look back and I'm like, if I was 22 and dating now, would I do that? You know, like what? What do you think, do you think you would? What I, it's interesting. I think that because now I think people go like notoriety. Like, if I can't get fame, I'll settle for notoriety. Whereas a big thing in codependence is if I can't get love, I'll sell for being used. So I'm always like, what would I be willing to settle for? Because I'm always fascinated by that. And I think I might do stand up and talk about, I might be doing what you were just talking about. There's a chance that I could be on a podcast saying, in this guy, this guy, this guy.

58:35But my codependence is, I don't want to embarrass people and I don't want anyone to be mad at me. So I would, I would never name names. I would never do that. Fucking immovable object in an unstoppable force, clashing up against each other. But you know what? I wouldn't because I think for me, whenever someone broke up with me, I like agree. I was like, you're right, I am worthless. Like, I had such low self esteem. I don't think low self esteem is our problem anymore. That was my generation's problem. We had Kate Moss, was our beauty influencer. Sometimes it was literally anorexic. And I had very low self esteem.

59:04Now, I feel like we're gone the other way. It's like, Lizzo is like, look however you want. And like, you're better than everyone. and no one deserves you. And if someone leaves you, it means they're a narcissist. How did you, what do you suggest to people who think, uh, last 15 minutes that when you just spoke about that, sounds an awful lot like me or a patent that I have in my mind? What do people go to begin to unwind these behaviors? Because really quick, sorry, there has been a little bit, I'm seeing it shift from when I started going to, you know, ACA Allen, I'm meeting, it was, it was a lot of women.

59:38Men, some men, blood women. It's more and more men and more and more men. Because I think that what was supposed to be this movement that was women are equal, women are strong. There has been such a over correction or people have decided to use this wave to victimize themselves or just attack men casually about things that aren't even crimes. Now men are going like, well, I can't break up with a woman. Or she'll sue me. And now I'm seeing men go into codependent. So they're kind of cultivating codependent. Kind of. It's sort of like there's this thing now, not that women are so strong and equal, that they're so fragile and made of fiberglass, that if you break up with them, we'll fall apart.

1:00:19But we're equal, like, which is it? We kind of have to pick one at some point, you know? It is currently hotter than a bonfire in Hell's backyard. But the Texas heat is no match, because all I have to do is throw element into a glass of water, and I'm good to go. You've heard me harping on about element for forever, because I use it every single day, first thing in the morning. It makes me feel fantastic, tastes phenomenal, it's got natural sweeteners for those of you that care about it, and there is no sugar or artificial junk. It is a game changer. You might not need more caffeine, you might not be under -slapped, you might just be dehydrated, and proper hydration is not just about drinking enough water, it's about having sufficient electrolytes to allow your body to use those fluids, and this is the solution.

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1:01:55And the subtext, you know, I know it's hard, it is definitely hard for guys. I talk about this, not a lot, that you've got to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and carry a heavy weight and burden and so on and so forth. But at least that world view, although it's difficult and filled with responsibility, it's complementary in as much as it suggests to you that you can handle it, that you can bear it. And I think that that's something that you should be flattered by as a guy and it's a hopeful message, it's way more hopeful than if you ever encounter a challenge in the world. it's because of a problem with the world, not something that you need to overcome yourself.

1:02:32The world should fold around you. And isn't this kind of Darwinism, though, too? You know, it's like the people that expect that are not going to make it and people that don't, don't. Like, I mean, I learned in early age, like, in this is a thing that I learned in program, is like, the world owes you nothing. That, like, blew my mind. That blew my mind. Why? That I don't know whether it was movies that instilled this in my brain. I don't know where, or maybe it was is just the magical thinking that, because growing up and now call a comb, a lot of times fantasy becomes your primary addiction first.

1:03:05So that's another thing. There's manifesting, there's fantasizing. At a very young age, I was checking out in fantasy. And then I found myself in relationships, fantasizing about the relationship, instead of basing my feelings about it on what was actually happening. And I think I see more and more people having these like kind of text relationships that aren't based on actually connecting with the person. and the relationship is kind of like a confluence of a little bit of in -person time texting and then their imagination. And then all of a sudden it's like, you know, the person's not behaving the way that they're picturing.

1:03:37They're pretty interesting. And I found myself doing that a lot is a way to not have to be in something. So that's like more into the love addiction thing and the fantasizing thing because I see a lot of situations now with men and women where things go south, but it was kind of a lot of the relationship was fantasy. and not based on actual things that were happening. And I definitely did that as a way to check out and then as an adult, you know, in my early 20s, was I an adult, but to not have to be in something real, so I'm not gonna get rejected. I don't have to do the rejecting. I'll just be in this fancy world.

1:04:09Which now, yeah, it's a protection. I mean, again, we spoke about this last time, this sort of over -to -no window of emotions that most people exist within, where nothing's ever that joyful and nothing's ever that sad. I'm kind of like the thermostat, that I exist between 65 and 72 degrees and anytime that I cross outside of that, there's something really, really wrong and that's not safe. So I'll cope by scrolling on my phone or by going out and distracting myself with TV or with junk food or with porn or with video games or with social media or whatever. And yeah, it results in us becoming ever more sensitized to ever less strong emotions.

1:04:47And then something happens that pulls us out of it and somebody has panic attack. Totally, totally. I mean, you know, I think this is also like the ice bath thing. I have no idea. You guys in your ice baths. I think that it's a good thing regardless to just go out of your way to make yourself uncomfortable. Like... It's such a trope. And I keep... I keep having this conversation with a ton of my friends that have kind of been in this world for a while. I genuinely believe that almost all of the important insights from a personal development standpoint, point I already know now after eight years or whatever, of being kind of in the trenches of learning this stuff.

1:05:26And I'm sure that there's way more that I don't know that I still need to know. The point is there's only a small number of really important sort of foundational elements to becoming a better person as far as I can see. And most of them you accumulated at the very beginning of your journey through personal development because they're the low hanging fruit because they're the ones that are most robust, They're the most highly scalable. They're the ones that repeated the most because they're the most effective. So, so many of the time, I encounter a fucking problem and realize that I wrote or said or interviewed the guy that had the solution to this four years ago.

1:06:01I'm like, why have I, I'm assuming that this new piece of him for our E .A .D .S. not, I discount the stuff from four years ago. It's the new shit. This is the new shit. This is the stuff that's in. No, dude, like you already found those. And I know that it's a trope to talk about do hard things, you know, get comfortable being uncomfortable so that you can be comfortable when you're uncomfortable. It's tropey, yes. But every single time that I do a cardio workout, I fucking hate cardio, I'm not built for cardio. Every time that I do a cardio workout, it puts me into a place, it's so humbling because I suck at it and because it's hard and because there's nowhere to hide, even in a body building, Jim Bro workout, you can kind of hide away in some ways, even if you go to failure.

1:06:39Yeah. But prolonged cardio discomfort, there's There's nowhere to hide. And you're like, right, okay, I'm doing this thing. And while I do it, all of these sort of inner voices about you're not good enough, you're gonna suck. You're not working hard enough. This should be easier because you fucking ate that cookie three days ago. This is because of you blah, blah, blah. This is just like Mr. Patterson in fucking physical education. Always said blah, blah. All of that stuff starts to come up and you're forced to grapple with it. Yeah. And that's interesting. I go, okay, well, for me it doesn't happen in the sauna.

1:07:08It doesn't happen in the ice bath, all that much. But it happens to your cardio. And I think finding a thing which can be a little safe, but controlled period of discomfort for you to exist within and go, okay, I'm going to use that meditatively to kind of just move through the things and the assumptions and the voices that come up inside of me. And yeah, I remember when I was doing CrossFit, I was maybe 27, 28 and hadn't done as much self -work as I have now. Anytime that my heart rate got above probably 161, 165, so, you know, zone four, not even, you know, top and zone five stuff. Anytime that my heart rate got above that, all of these weird voices would appear.

1:07:51All of these sort of negative, sort of very zero -sum mentality, threatening, frustrated, bitter, resentful, angry. All of these voices would start coming up inside of me. I was like, where the fuck is that coming I was like, oh, you're threatened. You're threatened by something at the moment. You're in discomfort and your go -to default is to derigate yourself. It's to feel like somebody's mad at you, to feel like you've done something wrong, to have this sense of sort of foreboding, this ambient sense of anxiety and threat and discomfort, you need to control it and getting yourself too far outside of that.

1:08:28And you can pick whatever it is. For some people, it can be staring at a wall, for some people, it can be meditation, for some people, it can be learning a hard piano. whatever it is, the, the period, like, modality of discomfort, I think, can be anything. But certainly for me, that's, like, it just opens up so many of those interesting insights. And that's why I understand why it's fucking like, oh, yeah, man, get comfortable being uncomfortable. I'm like, the lessons are there to learn. And also, like, as a recovering codependent, like, our comfort zone is, you know, martyring ourselves and we're very massacistic.

1:08:58So a lot of biorecovery is being like, no, you don't have to hurt yourself. No, you can't sleep eight hours and not feel like, you know, guilty, like you're using garbage and you're like a big thing with me is you're falling behind. Like if I take a nap, it's like you're falling behind, you know. And which might be true, but fine. And you know, I think that it's what this program does or any kind of recovery run co -dependence, at least you're able to sift through your inner monologue and figure out what is helpful and what's not. Right? So instead of saying this isn't healthy, this is healthy, that's pathologizing.

1:09:28You go, this isn't helpful. This is helpful. because I think a critical intermonologue can be really helpful. I'm the same with negative YouTube comments. This is not an invitation. Don't embarrass me in front of Chris, please. But sometimes when people are like, they're mean to me in the comments. I'm like, does it only hurt? Cause it's like a little true. That's when it, so for me, it's like I get feedback for a living. The audience decides what I say ultimately. And then I'm like, I don't want feedback. It's like, well, audience decides everything else. And so I look at comments and I'm like, you know what, that's actually true.

1:09:59I need to be able to take that. So it's like if you can't take criticism, that to me is the ultimate because we are in a, I know some of the book, Crisis of Comfort, whatever it is, we get our Amazon delivers things to us. We get post made. I mean, like, you know, I think we're kind of designed to be a, you know, hyper vigilant at war at all times. And now we're in a place where we're getting all of our needs met and we got to start these little wars everywhere, whether it's with your ex, whether it's, you know, online, whether you're the person writing Yelp reviews about some family -owned restaurant that the food wasn't leave them alone, you know, we have to sort of, you know, sort of do this, whether it's an adrenaline addiction or whether it's that human nature thing, you know, but I think that, you know, the new discomfort is being okay with hurting someone's feelings because everyone has has become more sensitive, you know.

1:10:42Well, just stating a needs plainly without bringing it into land to wrap your sugar. I see men walking on eggshells around women in a way that I'm like, do you think I'm going to sue you? Like what's happening, you know, and I do it with women too, where I'm scared that, you know, and it's taken me all this time in recovery of codependence after having a very histrionic mom and being scared of women for so long. I go into a program and I'm like, no, you can be a drag with women. They can handle it. You're insulting them. And then all of a sudden, now I'm like, if I'm like, you know what, I'm, you're gonna need to come into work in person.

1:11:13Today you can't work from home. And then it's like a, this is a toxic work environment. It's like, you've been working from home for two months. You have a doctor's appointment every day. Your acting class starts at two. I need in the office once a year. And I'm toxic. So I think that a lot of times it's being able to have, and not worry about what we call the afterburn. Like I'm going to say no, period at the end of the sentence. No email should be longer than two sentences because after two sentences, you're either apologizing or trying to manipulate it. We've lost the art of just succinct, clear, direct.

1:11:43Because we have to go like, and here's why I need you to come to the office because of this. And it's like, I don't owe you this explanation. What's your advice to someone who is the perennial sugarcota? How can people become better at more direct communication? What worked for you? That when I was, I had many employees like Condritz and - What was this for? I would, I had two sitcoms at the same time, two television shows simultaneously. And you were the exec? I was the creator. Okay. And running one of them and co -created another one. and then the Roseanne shows, you know, having a lot of employees.

1:12:21And when you ask for things and you don't get them, and you're like, this person can't beat that bad at their job. I must not be being clear. I love a, please tell me if I'm not being clear. I may repeat back to me what I asked person. So I don't know if you've ever done a Mago therapy with a relationship where before we could even move on, you have to repeat what you heard. So Chris, last night we were at this party, and I feel like I really wanted to leave, but you kept talking to your ex girlfriend. And you have to say what I'm hearing is to make sure we even hurt each other. Because sometimes the way I'm saying something is what I'm actually saying is you need to get lost and you're gonna hear, what I'm hearing is your jealous.

1:13:03That's not what I said. Let me keep saying it until it lands. You know, and what? Just a mago therapy. A mago. It's we don't, because then you're gonna go, well, your jealous, and I'm like, that's not what I said. Don't hold your hand up at me and then we're gone. We're gone. We're gone and now we're just fighting about fighting. You always do this. And then we're like, what are we fighting about? I don't even remember at this point, right? And we're just in our trauma responses and we're both just four, five -year -olds don't shit at each other, right? And so, to me, I love I stole this from Rick Glassman, comedian.

1:13:36I spoke to him for the first time the other day. I did DM with him. He seems great. He's great. high functioning ass burgers. I was diagnosed with autism when I was a kid and I beat it. I think we can all agree. And one time I said something to him and he went, can you say that again in a different way? And I was like, I'm stealing that because a lot of times people will say something to me and I don't really know what they said, but I don't want to admit because I'd be come off dumb or something or I just wasn't paying attention or whatever it was. And so for me, I realize that I'll go, okay, so if you could just go down there, I'd really appreciate it if you were just like Xerox's and then if you could take it over to Lindsey's office, like, I'm sorry, it's so far away, but if you could just go do that, maybe then grab yourself some luck and then the person walks away and it's like, I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing.

1:14:22I have no clue because she just tried so badly to make me like her or not be mad at her or like I felt guilty asking someone who gets paid to go make the Xerox, to go make the Xerox. I don't like it's just bullshit nonsense communication and this is why horses are so valuable or and pray animals in this space. Old roads lead back to equine therapy. I'm telling you because horses interpret the fear and not, they don't have codependence, they don't have people wanting to like them and anxiety about other people's opinions. So everything to them boils down to fear. Fear that you're not gonna like me.

1:14:53Fear that you're gonna go away. Fear that you're gonna reject me. So any of that with horses, they just, if you're alone with them and arena, they'll just move away from you because your energy's a mess. And I don't think we take responsibility for our own energy anymore. or I'm obsessed with radical self accountability. Truly, just, it's just exercise, just everything's my fault. Let's just play in this for a second. What if everything is my fault? Like what would that look like? And then what can I change so that I can control on my side of the street? Because we're also like another way to know if there's co -dependence in your life or addiction in your life is like how much are you blaming other people for things going on in your life?

1:15:28You know, forget that you're in a financial situation where you have to blame the government. that's real. You know, people can't buy houses anymore. You can't get healthier. That's fair. You know, that's a fair thing to blame. But to just go like, well, the relationship didn't work out because he did this and he did this. Like, so you had no nothing to do with, like nothing. In a sense, in every single situation, I didn't get this job because my boss was not okay. Like, everyone's boss is an asshole. Traveling should be about the journey, not the chaos of packing. And I've been using nomatics backpack and luggage for about a year now.

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1:17:06I love to meet that person. Are they single? Well, that's my pattern. I'm kidding. That's my pattern. So, you know. Just saying. But you, because I think high performer brain is like I actually have control in my circumstances and I'm being extreme just going let's look at this. Because when you walk into an arena with a horse who are doing acrointyropy and I know this sounds so elitist, to be like, so when you're working with your horse, but it's just helpful because it's such a mirror to your own energy. Like I didn't even realize that I was bringing energy into rooms that was like needy energy.

1:17:35You know what I mean? And then I'm like, why is everybody so nervous? Why is everyone, and it's just like being able to take responsibility for your energy and your motives, because horses can kind of read your mind essentially, and it's a great way to have someone or an entity show you your own energy because if I show up and I've got this energy and you've got that energy, I can even think of it. about what I'm a little energy mirror. Yeah, because I'm too, like we said before, we're like an intersection of each other's shit, but horses, when they move away from you, that means you're no longer providing them with serenity and peace.

1:18:05That's all they value is serenity. I texted you about when I did mine, and you get the little pick thing that you can clean the hoops with, and the lady came over and we'd been chilling out with the horses for a little while. The lady came over and she said, so you need to take this sort of blue thing and you're going to kind of walk up to it, and the horses can see even though they look like their brain dead, they all look like animatronic brain dead. They're not moving. They're just sort of stood there looking. Well, that's another thing, but I won't, you're going to think I'm an extreme, but most horses that are broken, they're shut down.

1:18:36What I do with my horses, I work with or not, like that because we give them pride and dignity and they're not just like, you know, well, maybe they would show. But it doesn't matter. I'm waving this, I'm walking over with this thing and she says you put your hand on it's shoulder and then you kind of slide it down and you just give it a little pinch and you lift the foot up and if The horse wants to lift the foot up if it feels comfortable then yes And you're supposed to sort of visualize lifting the foot up beforehand That's gonna make the whole the horse feel sort of comfortable with you and you know You can't be too stressed you go now.

1:19:03Remember thinking as I went over I really want this horse to like me and if it doesn't lift its foot up That's some sort of comment on me as a person and you know if it doesn't lift it It's it's like oh this just fucking typical isn't it? You know obviously because I'm unable to do the thing I can't just insufficiently chill and I knew that this is going to be the case if it does I've got this sort of glow of dopamine. If it was a person, if it was a person rejecting you, you'd be like, oh yeah, but she's in this tube top and she's who can, you know, with a horse, you can't get out of it by judging or blaming the person.

1:19:32So you just have to look at your own motives. So fascinating because horses, and I think that even if you're never near a horse, great, this still is helpful. Horses want you to be regal. They want your outsides to match your insides. They don't want you to pretend, they don't want you to be fake, they don't want you to worry that you're not gonna like them because all that translates to them is worry. And to them worry means, where's the mountain line? You're worried? We're prey animals. We energy conservationists aren't gonna waste worry if there's not something to worry about. And then it's like, oh, you're worried that I'm gonna like you.

1:20:04They think you're like sick. They're like, this is a sick animal. I need to get away from it because it's scared for no reason. And they move away from you. And they're kinda right in a way, you know? And I think that, you know, for me, I was moving through life with, But if I'm just making myself small, just so other people shine, and if I don't outshine other people, and if I just like make sure like I'm people pleasing and shape shifting to be whatever other people need me to be, I'm going to be okay and they're going to feel okay and everything's going to be copacetic. And then you do that with horses and they're like, get away from you.

1:20:33Can't be in this herd. Like you're a danger to the herd. You're self obsessed. You feel fear when there's no danger. So for you to felt, feeling fear when you're just picking up a horse's foot safely is weird. It's weird, isn't it? You know, it's weird to be like, I need a... break up with this person and I'm scared. Are they gonna hit you? We, you know, feeling fear under those circumstances is very bizarre and maladaptive, you know? So horses train my brain to go like, you know what? I can't be results oriented here, you know? And we go through life being still results oriented based on what we think is gonna either make us happy or what should happen.

1:21:11We go on a date being like, this should be the love of my life. Or that, you know, it really helped me going on dates being like, it's all just practice. If something great comes, great. But we have all these sort of results that we need attached to it that then make us feel like failures, you know? It seems to me there's sort of two things going on. I haven't fully thought this out But it seems to be the same pattern in a lot of stuff that I'm learning about at the moment that there's there's two things happening There's one which is your capacity to deal with the thing and There is another which is the Environment that you are working within and you can kind of play about with both so So on one side, you would say, I am going to be more brave.

1:21:52I'm going to be more courageous in my communication. But what you're doing there is overcoming an amount of discomfort. There is also, I shouldn't feel this amount of discomfort. Where is the discomfort coming from? And there will be times when you need to use the bravery. But there will also be times where you go, okay, when I'm in wartime, when it's a really big deal, when it's, I've tried to be screwed over by a business partner or this person that works, accuse me of a thing that I haven't done or whatever, you know, I need to fight for my corner. that's the time to use bravery and courage.

1:22:16But what you want to do is basically bring down the level of stimulus that you're feeling ambiantly to the point where you don't actually need to call on bravery and courage all that much because I just feel comfortable being direct and being open. So it seems to me that there's sort of two elements going on here, one which is like wartime fuel and one which is like a peacetime policy. I love that. And I think for me, I think this is a response that's helpful. But for me, in a tool that people don't talk about a lot, because we're all about how to go, go, go, how to high perform, how to like, is, in its an aphorism, I know, but like, don't just, don't do something, sit there.

1:22:54Don't just do something, sit there. And they say every year that you're in a 12 step program, you get a moment of pause, right? So for me, if you just go like, waiting with the fuck was out, I'm like, what do you mean with fuck was out? I can now go, I have 10 seconds to just be with myself and have choices because, you know, how can I respond, not react? You know, because the reacting is my fear driven, trying to fix it, trying to change it, not being an acceptance of the moment, not living life on life's terms, trying to control your perception, trying to change something I can't change, which is what you just said, which is the most arrogant thing you can do is be like, I'm going to get a time machine and erase him, whatever, I'm going to try to make you like me by what?

1:23:31Being like, what does it, like that doesn't make anyone like anyone. It's delusional, but I'm allowed to take pause and have grace, and I'm allowed to say, I need a second to think about this. I need to remove myself from the situation because I feel as dorky as it sounds, my inner child's, you know, should be the name of every abortion clinic, but more in fact, my inner child, I'm having an inner child reaction. It helps me to just have that language and those tools to just be like, I'm having an inner child reaction, I need to remove myself from the situation. Nothing personal, can I just get 10 seconds?

1:24:02And then you go, these tools like Halt, are you hungry, angry, lonely or tired? If I'm hunger, I need to go eat. If I'm lonely, I need to go make call. If I'm thirsty, I need to go drink. If I'm tired, I need to take a nap before I even address the situation. It's weird to say, like, when all these high -performer podcasts in your U, it's like, what about slowing down? Why does this situation matter to me so much? Why is this such a deal? Why is this going to shatter me if it doesn't go well? Is it because my life is not full? So another big part of co -dependent recovery is like, do I have hobbies that are not work related or self -improvement related?

1:24:39It's a tough one for me. Do you? I feel like you do. I try. So Pickleball was probably one of the best things, but the problem with that is you always want to become better. Tim Ferriss taught me an interesting story about this, which was decentralizing your sense of self. So that he's not just, he tries to not just be Tim Ferriss the podcast, Tim Ferriss the author, Tim Ferriss the business person, Tim Ferriss the investor, Tim Ferriss the whatever, tries to have a lot of different areas that he can take pride. Tim Ferriss the father, let's go to. Yes, Tim. Call me. My uterus is empty of them.

1:25:17Yeah, it's currently vacant. Who knows for how long? Taking application. So do this quote from Matthew Hussey, who was sat there not long ago, and it's from his new book Love Life, it's so good. To really good self -development book, masquerading is a relationship book. He says, I struggle to believe I'm worthy of moments of joy and peace without first putting myself through a brutal schedule, monitoring my productivity levels down to the minute. Perhaps some people apply this, earn your cookie mindset in ways that lead to healthy achievements. Not me. Mine is a mutation whereby joy and self -compassion are regularly outlawed by an internal tyrant who decides when I've been flogged enough for one day.

1:25:56Just when I'm about to collapse, a voice inside says, okay, give him half an hour of peace before bed, but make sure he knows we'll start again bright and early in the morning. And all of... Is this English? Yeah. All of a Birkman also English calls it productivity debt that basically he has to justify his existence every single day in order to stave off some ill -defined catastrophe that otherwise might come crashing down on his head. Few things are more basic to my experience of adulthood than this vague sense that I'm falling behind and need to claw my way back up to some minimum standard of output.

1:26:31Falling behind what? I think the key is to have really specific definitions because I think the vagueness, you know, vagueness is always the enemy of clarity, always the enemy of happiness, I think vagueness. Cause once I'm not falling behind, I'm falling behind what? Cause a lot of people look at me and they are jealous of me. So, who, Julia Roberts, like who am I even comparing myself to? I think you also have to get real clear on what your goals are. So you can even measure if you truly, you might be. But I think that sometimes we self -sabotage by having this vague idea of what we want to accomplish, just like what world domination, like what do you want?

1:27:07You know, how much money do you want? Like, because for me, I'm like, if I keep succeeding and succeeding, but my mentality of I'm falling behind, I don't have enough, I'm not good enough, doesn't change, that's on me. Like, I'm yielding the thing. And then this is just an addiction. It's one too many, a million not enough. when will it be enough? You know, and I think that it's taken me a long time to realize like my goals have been so vague on purpose so that I can continue to self -flagulate and to justify being able to be like, see, you can be doing more, you can be getting more, you can have three TV shows.

1:27:35Like, and it's like, well, I didn't set goal lists specific enough to even know if I'm coming in over with extra credit or if I am failing. I couldn't even tell you if I'm failing. I'm just making sure I always feel like I am to justify this behavior towards myself, which is the same way you justify drinking or self -harming or whatever it is. It's kind of mental self -harm, right? One of my friends gave me a quote the other day, General Ambition gives you anxiety, specific ambition gives you direction. How did you just pull that up? Like, what is this? It's just, that's the perfect quote. It's just Apple Notes, but I just have a lot of, I have a lot of smart friends.

1:28:07So yeah, I just, you know, that kind of addiction to work and to this, this needs to always be being productive and sort of contributing and stuff. And I think I've got a huge man coming on the show very shortly and with him this week. And we spoke about this last time. I spoke to Andy Galpin, his colleague, I guess, about this too, the perils of overoptimization. And I do think that we're seeing a swing already back away from that. And we're seeing even people like Andrew or, you know, even the most... Actually, the only guy that doesn't have this, I was with Brian Johnson on Sunday, you know, the like, swap blood with his son, lived until he's 150 guys.

1:28:44Yes, yes. So, So did this breakfast with him? He's the only person who is absolutely sort of, how do you say unyielding. There was an episode you did on, I believe on here and I don't know who it was with. Talking about like what is the point of living forever if this is how you live? Correct. Kind of thing. Yeah. And here we're in look, I said dear, dear friend and I love him and I allowed to joke about him. If like, are you fathering the world? The same way I was trying to mother or the world, you know? It's like, it's not that it's, I mean, life is working out great and he's happy, but he truly is driven by like I want to give free healthcare to it.

1:29:22That's wild. You know, that's a wild motivation and, you know, look, it's like there's a lot of people in podcasting that are having such a big impact. I can't imagine how hard it would be to walk away from the drug of actually helping people, you know, updated a your doctor before and he would I'd be buck naked on the bed. He'd be like, I got to go back into work. I'm like, that is knowing you can go save a life. I can't even imagine, you know, so you guys are in a situation where you're kind of this big brother Uncle father to all these men that I think are very lost younger boys that are very lost in women too women love your podcast and How do you stop?

1:29:58Well, I think you know, or break what just saying this This, the pendulum is swinging back, I think, in a way that was probably needed from over optimization. And sometimes the kind of early warning alarm is actually that you realize that it's totally unrealistic for anybody to have the perfectly optimized day and all the rest of it. And the more that we're not leaning into the only way to do it is this. This is the absolute. This is the only existence that you can go for. I think that that makes life a lot easier. So I think also with a world that's very out of control, I see a lot of people needing some kind of control.

1:30:38I also think that the less we are into religion, the more we have to create a new religion. And I think optimization is like kind of looks like a new religion in a lot of ways, right? It's like you have a morning, you have your routine, and you say whatever it is your meditation, you sleep eight hours, you have your rituals, you go into your ice bath, you go into your sauna. I mean, I don't always think it's a bad thing. I think sometimes we're addicted to over -pathologizing ourselves too. It's like, if it keeps you sane, if you're not hurting anybody, and you're taking care of yourself and setting good examples, and not committing any crimes, what's it hurt?

1:31:07It's interesting that you say it's a sort of addiction to control because there's definitely a kind of fragility that comes along with people who can only perform if they've done this weird rain dance before they actually go forth and do the thing. I can't just get up and start working. I can't just get up and raise my kids. I need to do my affirmations and I haven't done my five minute breath work I'm not gonna have them done my 10 minute meditation. I haven't been my son and so forth. You think, in an attempt to become more resilient, you've actually made yourself way more fragile. Interesting, that is fascinating.

1:31:38And I think that, I don't know, and then how much of it is disilleted? I think that's also something that any kind of, a time of program is rooted in some kind of addiction recovery. It's like, or are you just trying to isolate? Because isolation is where addiction thrives. So I go like, I'm just working on it. I have to work, work, work. and I'm like, oh God, I think I just got myself again. I found a way to justify isolating. I have to go away to a cabin and write for three weeks and not talk to anyone because I'm such an optimal. If you heard of monk mode, do you know what that is? Knife, no.

1:32:07Okay, so it's daddy. No, it's kind of like, imagine no fat but for your entire life. No fat. No fat. Fat. No fat. So like not wanking, but it's for everything. No jerking off. Yeah, it's got nothing to do with that. It doesn't work if you don't know the thing I'm referencing. The original reference doesn't work if the second, anyway. It's focused on the three eyes, introversion, isolation and introspection. So you go away and you relinquish all social obligations for a while. You basically focus on improvement, a good chunk of time, you know, six to 12 months as a guy. And the point is to try and go away, not have the distractions and the motivations that often come along with being in social groups and having to adhere to social obligations and then you re -enter the world now having done all of this work.

1:33:03One of the problems is, and I saw this in myself, I saw this in almost all of my friends that have had really successful monk mode periods, is that the isolation becomes a dicting and it is a way to help you feel noble in your retreat from the world. It's not that being in social groups makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable or that you're scared about rejection or that you find it hard to make friends. It's, I'm doing Monk Mode, bro. You know, you've sort of got this very regal up on my high horse better than you version and Monk Mode, unfortunately, can be very dicting and there's a real problem that guys have of reintegrating after they've done it.

1:33:41So there's three eyes, but there's actually a fourth, which should be integration or reintegration. And, you know, there's every time that I speak about this, loads of people say, I did the monk mode thing. I'm probably a little bit introverted and I know exactly what you mean. I really struggled to just get myself back out into the world after I'd focused on working on me. And that's kind of the same as the addiction to being in the cabin in the woods or whatever You know, it's you doing the thing which from the outside looks like discomfort, but from the inside is actually home base. And then when you try and rip yourself back out, what would really be uncomfortable would be you going out and saying hello to three new people at a party?

1:34:25That would be real discomfort for you. And now you're able to feel noble in this sort of isolation, which was, let's be honest, your home base all along. Right, right. That's fascinating. I love this. like, you know, it's, I think that my fascination has always been how our brain has not had an opportunity to evolve neurochemically to, you know, catch up with how quickly technology has changed things, you know, like where does, you know, we used to need to fight. We used to need to, you know, I come from Appalachia. I don't know. What's the Appalachia equivalent in England? I'm not really too sure what Appalachia is.

1:34:56Appalachia in America, West Virginia, Virginia, Tennessee. How would you describe it? Yeah, well, I guess the way I would describe it here is very low income. Okay, so I mean, any of the northern working class town. So where I came from T side, Middlesbrough, which is it was famous only for having the highest teen pregnancy rating in the UK. And then it lost that. So I didn't even have that anymore, which is a fucking L big L. I need to get back over there. Get some teens pregnant. Yeah. And can I just ask one question. Also knowing what's it all for? Is my kink just bettering myself for me? Because I think I'm such a piece of shit and I want to have a better inner monologue.

1:35:40Is it because I derive dopamine from pride in my behavior? Am I trying to prove someone wrong? You know, I did realize like sometimes unhealthy motivations can provide really positive results. Right? So when people talk about a friend of mine texting me the other day about jealousy and and I was like, dude, I, it bother, like, I'm like, give me someone to be jealous of. Like, that is my, gets me going so hard. We can call it healthy competition. Jealousy is right, and Vian jealousy or a little more toxic. But I'm like, healthy competition is something that really drives me and I really appreciate it, you know, when it comes along.

1:36:15When someone, like that David Goggins thing, like, I mean, when people talk about negative comments, I'm like, thank you guys, it kind of drives me, you know, because I'm like, I gotta get that person that hates me. I gotta get that person. Like I gotta prove him wrong. You know, I'm kind of into that. You know, and I think we're getting to a point where we're trying to solve every problem to me. I'm like, well, there's certain I don't want to solve because I do use that for fuel and I do kind of need that for this. And if I solve all my problems that I'm just gonna make new ones, that's what I feel like I'm seeing.

1:36:43I see like, especially when people who come after comedians, they're like, that's not funny and that jokes punching down. I'm like, it must be nice to have such an amazing life that you don't even need comic relief. because comedy is for people whose life sucks and who need an escape from their own brain. They need comic relief. They need the laughter that's the best medicine. You don't need any of that. That's so sick for you. I would never want to be in that situation, right? Because I would rather have real problems than the fake ones that I see people with no problems making up just to create chaos.

1:37:12There's certainly an element of one of the patterns that I realized I was encountering when doing a lot of personal development was it allows you to not face low self esteem in the moment because you know that you're always improving and, hey, I don't need to love myself today because tomorrow I know that I'm going to be a little bit better because all of the stuff that I did today. The day after that, I know it's so you're permanently kind of manana manana and sanitizing yourself from having to ever really face your own low self esteem. You don't, because I'm moving forward. You know, I don't, I guess some people could use this in a good way, which is I don't like my body now, but I know that I've been to the gym and I've stuck to my diet for the last two months, and that's gonna be great.

1:37:55And I know that in future I'm going to love my body. But I think that when it comes to things like self -esteem, it's much more chronic that you're trying to fix an internal problem by a series of external accomplishments and how many rich or successful or famous people that fucking hate themselves, do we need to see? To... So, look, it's evidently not going to be fixed by this thing on the outside, and it's one of the most unfortunate lessons, I think, because it's one that, for a couple of reasons, firstly, no one's gonna give you any sympathy for dealing with it. It's a sort of champagne problem, right?

1:38:36It's like being killed on the Titanic while everyone tells you how fortunate you are to be on the greatest steamship in history.

1:38:46Another problem, I suppose, is that the world rewards you for continuing to improve and continuing to do these things. And you're always able to just push and hide things further, further down. I'm not ready yet, but it doesn't matter. I'm not ready yet, but it doesn't matter. Something that I don't hear a lot in, I haven't heard every episode of every high performance bycast obviously, but like something I don't hear a lot is about service. So the thing that clicked for me was in order to build self -esteem you have to engage in esteemable actions. And if I'm spending all day just trying to make myself better by reading these books and get more money and get better friends and get a better relationship, it's really just gnarcer.

1:39:24You know what I mean? I'm just trying to make myself the best person I can possibly be in the prettiest and the fittest and the whatever. And like I started just I had a neighbor I would go for this run and you know we say program like being a serviced other people is you know what's going to keep you sober, emotionally sober, literally sober, whatever. Just doing simple things for other people, expecting absolutely nothing in return. It is so simple, it is free, and it is such a game changer. And the guy down the street, he had this long driveway, and he would pull, he was very old, and he would pull this trash can all the way.

1:39:55And then I started every morning on Thursday mornings going and just pulling his trash can down for him. And I couldn't believe how much I liked myself. I couldn't believe how simple it was, how simple it was. During the pandemic, I was like asking people if I could get them groceries if they say no fine. You know, little things like that. And, um, you know, the other day I was on six street and there was a very beautiful hot mess of a girl just sobbing in the middle of the street. Um, something you see a lot of six street troops just crying on her phone. And I just to just go up and be like, are you okay?

1:40:27And of course, I was like, that's my birthday, and I got kicked out of whatever. But it just, I was like, that was so selfish to just go up to someone else and get a little hit of your not of narcissistic piece of shit. And I think we don't talk enough about service. It's a small thing. We can do it in a positive way and you can do it in a sort of malignant way as well. You can do it in a way that is to manipulate or to seem like a good person or to guess. This is what's so fascinating about that codependence thing, which is it really always about the motivation or the motive on the inside, which is difficult because you think, well, I'm doing a good thing.

1:41:04If I'm doing a good thing, if this is me doing something nice for somebody else, you're doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you do the wrong thing for the right reasons. You know, if you need a fire someone, if you need to break up with someone, whatever it is, you know, but you have to be your own, you know, judge, jury, and executioner and be like, I'm not doing this for the right reasons. You know, when I brought your present today, I'm like, why am I bringing this? What am I doing? I really wanted to give it to you this thing. And I, you know, I just really have to watch that.

1:41:30And that's a little game I have to play with myself because sometimes I go into autopilot, you know, a really good friend, Christina Pazinski is going through a health thing. And I've been on this website to send her flowers every day. And I'm like, nope, not sending her $500 flowers. I'm going to call her. What am I doing with these flowers? What, she need flowers? She wants flowers. She'll have flowers in her house. It's little, you have to check yourself, you know? And that's something that I think we spend so much time thinking about ourselves, but not in a objectively like, I don't want to say critical, but like holding ourselves accountable type of way.

1:42:03Am I going to send her flowers so that if she doesn't immediately send me a picture and say thank you, I'm going to be like, okay. Am I a victim? Am I trying to create a situation where I feel like I'm unappreciated in victim? Am I just trying to ruin our friendship? Or injecting yourself into the suffering of somebody else to show just how important and charitable you That's it. I can also go, hey, let me know if you need someone to watch your kids for a couple hours. I can be of service. Do you know what I mean? Let me just drop something off. I've just made, am I making it about me? Am I giving her a chore so that I seem like a good person?

1:42:34I know this sounds like I'm overthinking it, but these little tiny things are like the death by a thousand cuts. Also, this is kind of the system two thinking that then allows you to pull it across into system one, right? That when, okay, I have this pattern and it's probably pretty malignant and I need to spend and a very focused period of time, maybe a decade, working on, doing it very consciously, until hopefully there's a part of me that starts to bring this across into my nature. So yeah, doing it deliberately, I understand exactly what you mean. I had to redefine the word nice and kind. I didn't know what those words meant.

1:43:09I'm just trying to be nice. Well, you don't say, I'm being nice. Like, is that nice? What's that nice? Well, no, I got you the saying. Oh, okay, thanks so much. You know, I think that we've grown up, I'm not coming for English people, I've dated an English man, there is such, I felt that so much. This like guilt and shame that's just imprinted. I don't know if you can't shine too bright or you have to just self -flagulate. I'm not sure if that's regional or what. This person was taught from Tottenham or like Tottenham. What was that of thing? Fucking American person tries to understand England.

1:43:48Yeah, it's a thing. He wrote it from top numb. Does that mean anything he must say to himself? Well, I mean, he just it's a football could be from anywhere in the country. Go on. But I think that there's a difference between, you know, being self -flagulating, self -deprecating and humble. And I think that this whole self -deprecating thing, I remember one time is a huge red flag. Insincere people are dangerous. That blew my mind. Because we're kind of trained to feel sympathy for insecure people. But you got to stay away from those people for your dating a girl or a guy who's like, you know, a guy's like, my calves aren't big enough.

1:44:19I need to go to the gym. That's a dangerous person. Get out of there. If that person's not happy with themselves, they're not going to be happy with you, right? If they can't get their own internal needs met internally, you've got to get out of that situation. If a girl is insecure and be like, I don't know if I'm going to get out of there. Don't be like, I'm going to save the day and make you feel secure. Just get out of there because like you're going to be on the chopping block next and you're going to be the whatever. So I used to, you know, I think a big thing in codependence is you can flate love and pity.

1:44:44That's a big one. Like if you're just like, how do you know if you're codependent? Like do you feel guilt when you're saying no to people? Do you feel shame? Do you, whatever I just said, do you remember? Guilt, shame. But there's one before that. Pity. Pity. Do you feel pity for somebody? You know, instead of loving them, you shouldn't feel pity for somebody and be in a relationship with them. That's like a fucked up soul contract thing. Do you feel hooked by people? Do you do things out of obligation? You know, stuff like that. And I think that, you know, do you worry that a horse isn't gonna like you?

1:45:10I mean, that's interesting. Do you do that with humans though? I think so, yeah, in some ways. So that's certainly going back to time through school, very much being on the outside, very much being bullied and always watching things occur. Watching everybody else be in friends, watching everybody else play at lunchtime, watching everybody else have support groups or whatever it might be. And then not being that always led me to try and reverse engineer. Okay, so what is it that I need to do in order to be accepted by the group. And I think that that's just such a subtext, which I carry forward into normal life, which is...

1:45:48I love, and as I hear that, I'm just going lucky, lucky you, lucky you. I mean, I'm big on it and I know this is fine. I'm big on like trauma privilege, you know? Of like, you know, in comedy, we're always like, if you were a girl that was molested, it's like doping in sports, you know? It's kind of like... I'm not happy. He's like, no, you don't compete in the same league if you're malice. It's like cheating. It's like you have more adversity. You know, it's like, I do think there's a point where we have to all stop being like, but no one likes me in high school. It's like, well, you're saying it on an interview on Oprah, it obviously works pretty well.

1:46:21You know, there's a point where we have to take some of the wins, you know? It's like, I was neglected as a child and you know, my parents were drunk. Okay, well now I'm really comfortable entertaining drunk strangers. Thanks guys, you know, there's a point where we have to kind of just go like, like let's take the win on some of the diversity stuff. And, you know, and also the horse thing, it's interesting because I'm so curious about what your success has done because horses don't know who you are. That's the other thing is they don't know and they know nothing about you. And I think there's a point where you go like, you know, in life where you're like, oh, I can kind of get away with more with this.

1:46:55Like I'm trying to make myself, I can play this card or I can sort of have this artificial self -esteem because people are responding. I know exactly what you mean. You get kind of get this multiplier bonus for walking into a room. You don't actually need to be that funny. You don't actually need to be that interesting. I have not been sufficiently, still I'm not sufficiently well known for that to have been a thing for me to actually embed it. So Mark Manson says that identity lags reality by one to two years. And I think that that's true. Same with science, right? But science happens and then it takes a year to be vetted and you're like, is this still true?

1:47:32Conceptual inertia. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, take time for people to play catch up. You mentioned before about this sort of mismatch technologically and psychologically between us This is my first election year in the US is this pace of Fib and meme shift Normal the pace that news is moving at the moment seems absolutely absurd Is this is this normal or is this an outlier?

1:48:05Interesting. I think, you know, it's very unoriginal to talk about our like short attention spans. I think the desensitization, I mean, is interesting, but we're no longer talking about Trump getting shot in the ear, but we kind of still talk about January 6th. You know what I mean? There are some things that linger and some things that are super ephemeral, and I don't know why. I don't have any answer. Well, we went, hot two ago, Biden's senile, Trump gets shut in the ear. Kamala is brat, summer, to Nancy Pelosi says that Biden should be on Mount Rushmore in the space of four and a half weeks.

1:48:49And you're right, it just seems so quickly. Like the Trump thing is the most mind blowing to me. I can't believe how quickly people have gotten over the fact that the presidential candidate, former president, got shot in the head. And look, this is not, you know, I'm Mark and Jason's world with a person to weigh in on this kind of thing. I was talking to you, Roman, about this the other day, you know, of like, you know, anyone can kind of just say anything all the time. Like, is this on like social media companies to not expose us? Is this kind of stuff? I see four people get stabbed a day on Instagram, and I don't even sign up for it.

1:49:21You know, I'm now, if I saw someone get stabbed in front of me, I'm worried I would like laugh at it at this point. You know, it's like, I think our, you know, idea of what is real and fake is, you know, I think this is like a crisis that is unprecedented and there's no way to, you know, it's when Will Smith hit, you know, Chris Rock in the face, and I thought it was a joke. I mean, people thought it was a joke. I mean, it's just like we, we don't even have a gut reaction to things, you know, the people that, you know, you know, again, like, freement your way on this, but robots can't tell the difference between a husky and a wolf because of our sort of just ancestral wisdom.

1:49:56Like your gut just tells you before you even know, you know, which is another cool thing about being around horses is they feel fear, they feel earthquakes before. Like we have that body wisdom, but we're just so disconnected to it. We have sort of changed what it means to have a gut. Like if I say when I have a pit in my stomach, if I see you at a bar, I call that butterflies. That's your body going like, not to get out of there. You should not have a pit in your stomach When you meet someone, we've decided that's love. Like we've turned things around so much. You know, like I just worry we're like, our gut is gone.

1:50:28Are intonation. Well, I wonder whether it's because everything just feels so unreal. You know, we are by design detached from, you know, you've seen that assassination attempt from 100 angles and 20 different reconstructions from a company that does fucking 3D modeling, CGI shit. And it's still kind of doesn't feel real. And yeah, I don't, I think that that's something that we should be concerned about. I think it should be concerning that viscerally people aren't impacted by this stuff more. But I suppose, actually, I may be answered my own question here, which is, if you were emotionally or viscerally impacted by all of the things that are meaningful, You would just spend your entire day getting ripped around.

1:51:17You know, it's tried and there's been said a million times that the human mind is not meant to consume the entire world's news 24, 7 on a daily basis. Yes, we're not built for this velocity and volume of information or the way that it's portrayed to us with the horrible language and the inflammatory rhetoric and all of that stuff. And that, I think, felt like a... It felt like an interesting thought experiment that I wasn't experiencing personally. And I wonder whether this is what that little theory coming into land actually feels like. And I think like, look, I mean, Neil Postman's amusing ourselves to death, always worth reading in this space.

1:51:54I'd be so curious what he has to say about this now. And I think I always go, look, I'm a comedian. I'm not, I don't do it you do. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a sociologist, whatever. But I look at things from a contextual point of view like, is this the new Darwinism? Like again, the people that are the most dissensitized, you know, are the least likely to survive. Like, you know, I try to limit my exposure so that I stay sensitized. I would like to stay in a place where if I see someone get shot in the head, I think it's awful. Yeah, I would like to continue thinking that. I would like to keep myself sensitized.

1:52:25So I have to go out of my way to do that. You know, I have to go out of my way to, you know, play defense. But, you know, I think this was all kind of by design. I mean, that guy from Facebook came out and said like, this is designed to make you addictive. You know, more horrifying and the more comments and the more clicks, you know, and we're just kind of booked, you know, people like the robots are coming. I'm like, I think we're here. But there's part of that. So the algorithmic stuff and the kind of stickiness of these platforms makes sense. It seems like even the incidents or events that there are to talk about are occurring at a more rapid rate.

1:52:55And maybe this is just because we're ramping up ready for November 2024 election and all that stuff. But I just can't, I can't believe how quickly everything seems to be moving. It's absurd. Yeah, I mean, it was always happening. It was just never covered, right? Is it, you know, it's, you know, four years ago, it didn't feel like it was this quick. And I wonder whether going back to the January 6th, the only interesting thing that I said around the Trump assassination was will the media say that which day will the media say was bigger deal in American history, January 6th or July 13th? And it should be, I think, when the president was needy assassinated.

1:53:36I think, you know, if you were to just say to a representative group of Americans, a president, you don't get to know which party from, was shot in the head, but survived, or a group of people stormed the Capitol building. Which one do you think? And I would guess that you would actually lean toward the president side of stuff, because because the implications of that occurring is actually graver. It's just, I don't know, I don't know. Maybe it's to do with the media cycle, maybe it's to do with the fact that it was Trump, but yeah, there's just, there's a further and a pace to everything at the moment, which is, it feels like fucking holding onto a roller coaster.

1:54:18I mean, I think that I, you know, I think that there's also a, I did a, you know, have things changed since I've been pregnant. I didn't, I did a mass unfollowing, a mass muting, because we have to protect ourselves. Now, usually we have to seek out news. Now we have to actively protect ourselves from it. I do like Shellenberger, I do like Jessica Kraut. I'm very specific about the same way that people are specific about what they put in their bodies. I try to be just as specific about what I put in my brain. If I was half as careful about what I put in my body, I mean food wise, then what I put in my brain, imagine.

1:54:56So I try to go like, what is the media diet we're doing today? 100 % I think. Half two. Your body is made up of all of the things that you put inside of your mouth, and your mind is made up of all of the things that you put in your ears and your eyes, and your content diet should be