#828 - Dan Bilzerian - What Happened To Dan Bilzerian?

24:18like, how does that work? You know, like, what point is there repercussions? And what point isn't there? How did that period of life feel given that you were going through this deceleration transition, detoxing or whatever you want to say, like rehabbing from hedonism, whilst also going through this public scrutiny, whilst also there's a global pandemic, which is kind of shut the world and your lifestyle down? Did that get it to you? It felt like I was going through hell, but honestly, not because of any of those reasons as much as the edit of the book because I did 37 edits of this book and every time I finished an edit, I was positive that it was done.

24:58And then I'd reread it and then I would start changing shit and I'd start fucking with shit and it was just like, I just felt like I was in purgatory. I literally felt like I was in hell. Like I felt like I I felt like every day I had like an overwhelming homework assignment that I was never going to be able to finish and I had to go to school and you know what I mean? I was just like, I don't know, like school without ever getting summer break or weekend off or whatever because I did every single day. It took no days off and it was like 12 hours on. I would sleep for like whatever four hours.

25:28Then I would do like eight hours. Then it's sleep for you know. I was just like, I didn't even get like a full night sleep. It was just like constant. What I found is that if I worked for more than like eight hours without sleeping, then my mind would actually do like harm. I do more harm than good and then I had to re -edit, you know? And I was just, I don't know, it was, it was a lot. But I, but the crazy part is the talking shit, the pandemic, the all this stuff, like none of it was as bad as the, as the book. I mean quitting all this stuff and the, and kinda like the, I guess,

26:03like just a lack of dopamine, because if you go from just having just massive spikes all the time, I don't know, it's kinda like having withdrawal. I mean, you do have some kinda withdrawals. I mean, then it's not smoking weed. And I was smoking weed every day. Like, I went up period of like three or four years where I never had sex without smoking weed. And I was fucking like three to four times a day every day. I wouldn't even work out unless I was high. It was just like a lot, a weed. And so, you know, I think your body just gets used to that. People say that weed's not addictive, but I think it's like one of the most addictive things.

26:35And so that was a hard one to quit. The sex addiction wasn't quite as hard because I did have, you know, like this hot 18 -year -old girl running around like, you know, in lingerie all day, like, you know, beg of me to bang her. So I didn't really kind of like stop, and it's not like a stop having sex, but I stopped with the craziness. But it was a tough time. You know, that was like a pretty dark time. You know, it was like you go from this like top of the world, pleasure seeking dopamine spike over and over and over and over again all the time. Every time you're the man, you're the greatest thing and all this shit.

27:09And then, you know, like having to deal with negativity and then also the pandemic where you can't do shit and the world's in chaos. You know, we've been, we've never been more divided, we've never been more racist. like the country's just like tearing itself apart. And I'm kind of like locked in the house and I'm doing this edit and it was just like, it was a lot. Just you and a word document for comfort. Yeah, yeah. And an 18 year old in London. Gagely and like you got, you know. Fucking everything's got a silver lining. What's your approach when it comes to sort of public scrutiny? You know, do you get sort of sad or riled up or does your self -esteem or confidence or whatever take a hit from things like that, there's very few people that spend so much time crafting a public image to then have it be derogated rightly or wrongly or falsely or legitimately or whatever.

28:06But for that to then happen, and you not feel indignation at it being wrong or you're not feeling shame at it being right. Yeah, I mean, it was one of those things where, you know, I've been famous for 12 years and like on a pretty large scale to where every country and every place of the world, like people coming up to me all the time non -stop. And I feel like in the beginning of it, I didn't deserve it. And like all these people were telling me all this stuff and I was like, you know, I don't think I'm the greatest guy in the planet. I don't think I'm doing it, you know? But I'm also that kid that didn't get a lot of pussy in high school and whatever.

28:43And everybody's got their insecurities. So you don't feel like you deserve as much praise as you're getting. And then I got to a point where I felt like, you know, I was the man. I was throwing the best parties in the world. I was fucking the hottest girls. I was doing all this shit and I have been doing it for a super long time. And so maybe I do deserve it, but I don't really care. And I think during the entire process, like I'd gotten a ton of negativity. Like honestly, like my biggest spikes in fame were from negative things. Like throwing a girl off, you know, throwing a girl off the roof.

29:14Like I just like I'm chucking bitches off the roof. Like it's something to do. Like it was like a hustler photo shoot. They asked me to do it. Like this girl like held onto my shirt, you know almost killed me in the process. But it wasn't my idea. It wasn't just like I was just randomly doing this drunk on a Tuesday. Like it was for a photo shoot, controlled environment where they asked me to do it. But that wasn't the headline, right? But whatever, you know, like I said, I got a lot of negative press, and then all that negative press kind of like, you know, catapulted me forward, and I was doing the social experiment to see how much, you know, how famous I could get and whatever, and it was kind of like went off the rails and kind of turned into its own thing.

29:49And then I would say around maybe 2021, or so kind of the time that I was getting getting a lot of the shitty press or whatever. I actually had, I think I've developed more confidence in the last like three or four years than I've ever had in my entire life because I don't need anybody to tell me that I'm great. It doesn't really bother me if people tell me that I'm not and I have like a higher self -value than I ever have before because I know what I've accomplished that I spent two years reflecting on it and writing about it and like realizing like how much which effort a lot of this stuff took.

30:28And I also kind of like, you know, got a lot of confidence in who I was a person and like the things that I've done and the fact that I haven't sold out and I haven't done, you know, I guess things that would compromise your value system for money or for fame or whatever, like I think a lot of other guys have done that. If you got any times where there was an offer on the table that was tempting or that you would have thought, oh, I mean, that's a lot of something for me to compromise my values. Yeah, all the time. I mean, I got offered $3 million to do one post about a crypto coin. You know, I got offered millions and millions of dollars to do an NFT post, you know, and things that I felt like would lose people money or whatever, tens of millions of dollars for gambling sites or whatever.

31:16Come and be a stake .com kick partner in light stream, you playing Plinko balls or whatever. that shit, you know? And it's like, I really feel like gambling is in that negative. Like, I think it's just bad. Obviously, the house ends up with the money. It's not the answer. A lot of guys want this get rich quick thing or whatever. So the intro just to sit on that, it's a really interesting point that everybody gets accused and gets the finger pointed at them for all of the bad things that they do. And some of the bad things that they have been accused of doing, but nobody ever gets given plus points for the bad things that they didn't do.

31:56You know, no one knows the podcast guests that would have done huge plays and many of the people brought on, but ethically I didn't feel were virtuous. Like I don't get any points for the bad things that no one knows that I didn't do. All of the stuff that you say no to. And that's an interesting point, you know, during the NFT and crypto phase, what anybody, I mean, that would have been the whatever like bills coin or some shit would have been a huge cash grab the distribution circulation that you would have had with that. I told you didn't think about it, but that's a yeah, yeah, that's like a good test.

32:39The important if you do your own coin because then you have some control over it, but just promoting somebody else's rug, that I wouldn't feel right about. You know, that I think is fucked up because like, they're gonna pay me because they're gonna rug it and they're gonna take the money and the people that I'm gonna send to invest are gonna lose. So it's kind of like - All of those people are your exit liquidity. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I look, I mean, there's been plenty of coins that have done well, you know, like Doge, you know, that made a bunch of money. Shibaii Nu, blah, blah. Yeah, because the whole premise of crypto is like kind of this decentralized thing that allows people to bet on like the stock market is rigged and people that you know they saw it in the game stop stuff like they f**k those guys like bad like they halted trading they did all this stuff like finally like the good guys are gonna win you know and they still fucked them so exactly so it's kind of like crypto is maybe like one of the last things that isn't really a rigged market if if done right and I think that's some of the appeal and you can inflate it like the governments inflating the dollar and whatever So I do believe in crypto, but yeah, I was gonna do any of the, you know, the bullshit promo stuff.

33:47And but I think the confidence that I have is just and kind of like knowing that I'm a good person, not necessarily, you know what I mean? Like not doing bad things I think is important too. But like, I think you get your real confidence from knowing that like you will suffer for the right thing. you will not quit, you will have follow through, you'll do the things that you believe in, you'll stand for the things that may fuck you. You know what I mean? You'll say what's on your mind regardless of the outcome. That's the stuff I think that you get real confidence from because look, anybody can do things that are easy.

34:26It's like how do you behave when things are difficult or when the shit hits the fan? That's what defines you. Not like, are you the nice guy? Do you take a bunch of photos when everybody's sucking your dick, you know, it's like not do you, you know, whatever, wave for the crowd. Like, you know, it's just it's easy to behave well when things are going good. But I think it's like how you behave when you know there's going to be negative consequences for what you do or you say. And I think when you stand up for what you believe in regardless of the consequences, even when you know the consequences are going to be bad, I think that's when you get the real confidence.

35:01It's interesting that your desire for self -esteem or your lack of confidence originally is one of the things that drives you to make a ton of money and then sleep with a lot of women and then have all of these peak experiences. And then you end up, it's like the alchemist by Paolo Cuello where you end up going all the way back around to just stick to your words, say things that you believe are true, do hard things when you can. It's basically like a philosophical equivalent of maybe Seal Hell Week. Yeah, like King Solomon. You know, it's like, I think you have to have some real insecurities to drive you to go to the ends of the earth.

35:36You know, like the David Gog and stuff, like he has to have some demons. You know what I mean? Like it's just one of those things where, and you know, and back to the Chinese farmer, it's like, you know, sometimes the insecurities help you. You know, sometimes those are good things. Sometimes they drive you. Sometimes they give you the motivation to continue when you otherwise would quit. So that's one of the, I guess, liberating or reassuring or maybe actually disenchanting things of the last few years of my life, meeting more and more successful and rich and famous people and realizing that on average, most of them are more miserable than the average person.

36:13That a lot of the people are driven by a sense of insufficiency or a requirement for validation or a parent that didn't care enough about them or what the bully said in school or whatever it might be. And Andrew Wilkinson guy that founded Tiny billionaire, he says, most successful people are just a walking anxiety disorder harness for productivity. And I think, you know, there's definitely outliers in there. There's tons of people that have managed to find the correct balance between hedonism, between what they look for from everybody else, how they feel about themselves, the world's view of them, their view of them.

36:48But there's definitely a kind of irony in the most admired people, often having the least admirable internal states. You know, if you could just take a little holiday to their mental landscape as their head hits the pillow on an evening time and go, holy no thank you, I do not want that at all. There's a great interview Lex Rebendid with Elon Musk maybe last year and Elon sort of very solemnly looks like in the eyes and he says most people think that they would want to be me. They don't want to be me. They don't know. They don't understand. My mind is a storm. You know like holy fuck like this is the robot dancing on stage at Japan convention Tesla firing rockets into space guy.

37:35And meanwhile he sounds like he's having an existential crisis and you go well yeah because what is Is it the drive somebody internally and what you see of them externally? It doesn't, a lot of the time, I don't think you would pay the price that you would need to to be the person that you admire. Yeah, I mean, there's that and also just money doesn't solve the problems. People think that it does. It actually perpetuates a lot of problems. Also. Because it exacerbates them, it puts them on a larger scale. More people are wanting something from you. It's harder to determine people are there for the right reasons.

38:05and you've got more staff, you've got more responsibility, you've got more things pulling your energy. Now you've got four houses to manage, you've got a jet, you've got, I mean, I have like 22 staff members. It's private life is just as complex as your professional life. I mean, managing staff is just like managing girls. It's like eventually you just get to a point where like you don't wanna manage all this shit. And so then you hire somebody to manage that. You don't even, it's like outsourcing, outsourcing, outsourcing, but you're basically like running a company. Like I've got multiple chefs, I've got, you know, I've got, you know, house cleaners, I've got a bunch of assistants, I've got, you know, just all this staff, right?

38:45But then the staff has to manage the staff. And it's a whole thing, right? And what is it all for? Just so you don't have to make your bed and cook your food and whatever. Because like last week I just went out to Minnesota, saw a family had a gram of their funeral, and then I went to Canada and we live basically like in the We got a cabin up there, but there's, you know, we have to use propane and there's an outhouse and you know We have power only because it's generator. Yeah, it's a lot, you know, like it's basically like I'm cooking my own meals I was doing all my own shit and I just realized like how many things were done for me But at the same time like I didn't really need it, you know, like it was just kind of nice to be able to just be Self -sufficient for three or four days.

39:25I'm like there's no cell reservists So I never looked at my cell phone You know, it's kind of nice. Like it was just good to unplug and just realize like, I don't actually need all this shit. We'll get back to talking to Dan in one minute, but first I need to tell you about 8 sleep. I've been using my 8 sleep mattress for years, and I absolutely love it. I used to find myself waking up in the middle of the night, feeling groggy in the morning, and temperature was almost always to blame 8 sleeps. Newest generation pod, the pod for ultra is here, and it can cool down each side of the bed to 20 degrees below room temperature, and for those who snore heavily, it can literally detect your snoring and automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve airflow and stop it.

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40:43A lot of ways. A tool. I mean it's a tool to get what you want. It's a tool to save times, tool to you know set up an environment to you know bring what you want to you like you know who could help you with women, it could help you with a lot of things. And so it's just, it's one of those things where I think people want for the wrong reasons, and I think a lot of people they get it, don't know how to use it. But it's valuable. I mean, it allows you to travel the world when you want, it allows you to tell people, fuck you. That's the biggest thing, honestly. Like that's the reason I always wanted money is just to tell people, fuck you.

41:18And it's always funny to me to see guys like the rock or whatever that's like still like punch in the narrative, still doing what he's told, still, you know, like given the speeches and dorsen, you know, like just like who's your master? Like what the do you doing? You got four million dollars, like what the fuck is wrong with you? Like why are you answering to anybody? Like why is anybody influencing what you say? Like be your own person, you have enough. Like when you get to a point where like you can't spend your money, the idea of like being a slave to money is crazy to me. I heard you say, not long ago, maybe within the last few years that you wanted to make a billion dollars, and that that was this kind of, you knew arbitrary sort of pointless number to get to, is that still on the list, or is that something that you've been able to deprogram?

42:07I've been able to deprogram it. That was one of the things. And I saw this in my life. Like, I was sure that a million dollars was like enough. like I needed a million dollars and then it was five million and there was 10 million and it was 50 and then it was a hundred and it was like 500 You know, it's always like a fucking another number and it was never enough and it's never gonna be enough and You know, I just realized that I Got happiness from like helping other people and doing things that I enjoyed doing so I need to focus on that It's actually pretty simple. It's not like a real complex So it's not, I was going to say one of the themes here is definitely sort of simplifying rather than adding complexity.

42:45Lots of girls, lots of complexity, lots of staff, lots of complexity, lots of money, managing that, obligations, this party that I need to run or go to or whatever, I've heard you say that, you know, most of the parties that you run when you were in that phase in LA, you didn't really get any chance to enjoy yourself because you were the guy in the door and making sure that everyone's having a good night, you're organizing this and organizing that. Despite presumably a fucking ton of the staff or whatever that to help you, um, and increasingly, you know, it seems to me that the best ways that people who have money spend money is to actually simplify life rather than make it more complex.

43:24But the natural sort of root of having money is more things and more people and more complexity. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, you realize that you value peace. You know, just not headaches, not stress, not girls fighting, not energy being pulled in a million directions. And so yeah, I would say I prioritize peace more now than I did before. I had like no peace before. So I don't know, man, I'm not like an extremist. I just go all the way this direction, all the way this direction. and yeah, doing this part is a nightmare. I mean, there was like one point, I distinctly remember one point when I actually enjoyed the party and it was maybe for 10 minutes.

44:08But I was, I was, and I'll never forget it because it was like, and I ended the book on it, it was, I was in a day bed and I had like 20 girls crawling all over me, grabbing me and I was like, you know, McQuayle, to kick in and I was happy in a Lesso and carnage and dip low were all fucking DJ and all at the same time and like it was like looked out, there's nothing but hot shakes and a few celebrities and whatever and I just like, I just realized at that moment like I had thrown like one of the best parties has ever been thrown in the fucking world, like hands down. I know it for a fact. And there was like some sense of accomplishment there, you know?

44:42And but I realized like this was at the top. Like you I couldn't do a better party. There was 3000 girls, there's like 300 celebrities and it was just like, you couldn't have done a better party. There was like the best DJ and the best, whatever, all this shit, Cirque du Soleil performers. And yeah, I was like, that was a mountain that I wanted to climb. Like I would have attempted to spin it up for one last time. I mean, maybe one more, you know, like that's not, but like just to do it, just like, fuck it, why not? But not because I feel any obligation to do it. And I feel like I did it because of obligation before.

45:19I mean, it is fun to throw a good party because you know people have a good time and it's something that you know they're Remember but it is a pain in the ass man like it's you know to do it the way I wanted to do it I lost a lot of friends, you know because like I wouldn't let guys come in there I wanted the ratio to be right like Pistol off a lot of celebrities But they were great, you know the parties were awesome. I mean for the people that were there So and that's what I want to do I always wanted to go to a playboy party. And then I went to a playboy party and it was cool and I fucked your girl in the grotto and I thought, like, man, I've done it.

45:52And then I threw a party that was better than the playboy party. And that was like, okay, now I've really done it. That's enough. Did you pivot to monogamy? Did. How's that? But I'm not like some proponent that you have to be monogamous. I just found that it's just the natural state. Like, and people won't always say, like, you know, the only animals that are monogamous are gas dolphins and all this shit of like, you know, whatever. It's like a natural thing in the animal kingdom for the alpha male to follow the chicks. I'm like, I get it, you know, like I argued that too. And I did, you know, I fucked a lot of chicks.

46:27But I think that when you actually really like a girl and when she really likes you or you're in love with whatever, it's not worth the pain that it causes her to other girls. That's what I landed on. So it wasn't so much. And I also didn't need it too. Like I didn't need to stick my dick in a bunch of girls. Like I've done that. And I think that because I've done that, it actually gives you unique ability to be monogamous. Cause I think if you're some dude from Wisconsin and you're married after sleep with two chicks and some hot chick hits on you, the rest of your life, you're like, damn, like what would that have been?

47:01I wonder what Exactly, like, well, you know, I think it would almost be impossible not to be like that versus if you've had sex a lot of girls, you know what you like, you know what you don't like, you probably appreciate the girl that you landed on more so. And, and you just won't have the wandering eye. So I'm also a proponent of getting out there and, you know, hooking up with the decent amount of girls and what you like dating around figuring it out, not putting pressure, not getting married because society tells you you should get married. I'm not saying I even agree in marriage, but like, I'm an I think it's probably the goal is where you should want.

47:35And because I think that's where you'll be the happiest because you can focus on your shit, you're not distracted. And it's pretty easy to keep one girl happy. I did it with like 100. It's like one is piece, one is very simple. I remember one of my friends when I was back in the UK was really hardcore into pick -up artistry and keynote escalation and when Neil Strauss and the game and mystery and all of that stuff was coming around. I remember him saying over dinner one evening he said, uh, my future wife better appreciate all of this effort I'm putting in. I'm like, you're going to have to explain to me how you like plate spinning 15 watts at checks at once is in investment in your future wife.

48:13It says, well, look, when I'm walking down the street with my two and a half kids and a golden retriever and my wife, I don't want to look at a Brazilian check and think, I wonder what it's like to fuck a Brazilian check. So he's like, really, I'm doing this for my future wife. And I'm like, eh, maybe some roundabout kind of logic. But as You're saying here, you know, there are some lessons for some people, like unique constitutions. And so for one person, it might be money for another person. It might be fame for another person. It might be women for other people. It might be all of them that you need to check boxes in order to close those loops.

48:44There's that. And then I think also you get more confidence. And I think a lot of people cheat out of insecurity. And so I think by dating a bunch of women and by getting confidence and realizing that, you know, women are attracted to you and they like you. This may not have been as true for you, you know, Mr. GQ model grown up. You probably didn't have trouble getting busted or whatever. It's a very ugly, very ugly guy until I was about 19. All right. Well, anyways, for, I think for most guys, there's probably, you know, because there's a lot of different attraction triggers. There's the common ones that guys think about, but there's a bunch of other ones that are actually really powerful.

49:21And you know, like pre -selection, for instance, like just having a bunch of girls around that are interested in you will absolutely, unequivocally make hot girls wanna fuck you. And I've seen it, you know, more so than good looks, because I went on vacation with Bill. You know, here's a good looking guy worth $500 million, funny, smart, like all the things the guys think that they need. He went four days on a dessert time with 36 hot girls and didn't fuck a single girl. And not for a lack of trying, he literally tried to every single girl there. And they all said no. Okay, so that was one of the things that, like, you know, in deconstructing this course that I realized was like the things that guys think they need is not what they need because I've seen guys with every single and it's not like he didn't get pussy.

50:01I mean I fucked 10 girls with him at one time before that, you know, trip. So like it's not like he wasn't confident he was D1 football player, the guy gut girls. So he had all the things confidence, experience, whatever the guys, you know, set up being on a deserted island with 36 girls they can only. I mean, I think the security guard got laid, but anyway, the point is he He was doing the most common thing that guys do, which is he was overcommunicating interests to women. And what he did is he just overcommunicated interests and he hit on women in the traditional sense that guys think is correct to get girls.

50:34He hit on them, gave them compliments, whatever. But he blew himself out with every girl because he overcommunicated interests. And what I told him in the fourth day was like, dude, you need to just chill the f*** out, like stop overcommunicating interests, stop acting, you know, you know, wreaking of desperation, stop acting like if you don't get laid, you're gonna die. You know, and on the fourth day, sure enough, you chill the f*** out, you f***ed four girls, you know, and like met his wife, had a few of the reasons, like everything was good. And, you know, and it was just a small shift. And so that's what I've seen is like, you know, small shifts can have a big impact on the outcome, and I just think a lot of people are just doing the wrong thing.

51:11What is your opinion on modern advice for men? We're talking about crisis of masculinity, men struggling with their role in the world, whether it's financially, professionally, existentially with women, what do you make of the current landscape of advice for men? I think it was a fucking disaster, like an unequivocal disaster. The current landscape is atrocious, which is why I spent the last two years doing this. And I talked to you about this about a year ago. I actually didn't know the fuck you were. It was like, you know, it's sharp guys at Bill's house, probably get sued, whatever. And like, you know, we wrap about this.

51:42And then, you know, and then I found out that, you know, you were famous too, and you had a podcast and all the stuff. And, you know, and you knew about this stuff, and you're interested. But like at the time we talked, it was just like, you know, two guys chopping it up about this and like You got it like I saw that like you understood the problem I don't know I just like I look out and I just see them getting the wrong advice doing the wrong things having bad results And then the problem is they're quitting like that's the biggest problem is not that they're not getting pussy But they're quitting and I think the problem today is that guys have maps of the wrong directions and before 40, 50 years ago, even when we were kids, like we didn't really have directions.

52:18You know, it's like we saw some shit in the movies, right? We had some good stuff, like what James Bond did, and then we had the bad stuff, the rom coms. But like we didn't really have like the bad directions that we have today. And this attack on masculinity and all this stuff, which is like just a recipe for horrendous results. And also coupled by the fact that women because of social media, now think they deserve like this crazy guy that maybe they could fuck, but that's not gonna date them seriously. And then they have experiences with those type of guys, you know, which exacerbates the problem.

52:48And then they end up marrying some guy that's worth $100 million. It's just like happy because they're hot and doesn't realize that they've like fucked half the NFL football team and whatever. You know, and then the girl doesn't really respect that guy because she has all these other previous guys to compare him to. Plus the fact that she doesn't really think of herself as being like, you know, that high value because she hasn't been able to date any of the guys that she actually really wanted. right? So it's like creates this landscape of unhappiness on both sides for meditation, and cynicism.

53:17Yeah, there's a big trend of cynicism around dating advice for guys and I think as you said a lot of them are checking out how cynical or hopeful do you think guys should be when it comes to the dating market? I mean if they do the right things there's hope for everybody. I mean look I was not a guy that was supposed to get hardly any pussy and I didn't. I was like I lost I was like, you didn't need a Mexican hooker, you know? Like, and then we went a couple years out of that, you know? They finally figured it out. Like, and that's next again, but like not much. You know, and then the military, I did terrible.

53:50I would like go up to every girl with the typical like, oh, I think you're beautiful. You know, can I buy you a drink line? And obviously that's gonna do terrible because that's like just setting yourself up failure, over communicating interest. It puts the girl in a position like, I can have this guy, you know, do I want him? And when you look at something like that, it's like all the flaws magnify. It's like when somebody tries to sell you something and they pitch you really hard, you automatically look at all the reasons why you potentially shouldn't buy this, right? Well, it's no different in dating.

54:15So when a guy comes up and like lays it on real thick and this is like, oh, I'm just gonna be honest, I'm just gonna tell her how I feel and like all this bullshit. And like, you know, and it just runs her right the f*** off because she doesn't respond to that because in her, you know, past experience, all those guys that have come up are usually like the needy guys and whatever. And so I had the wrong approach and I got shady results and then, you know, and college, I kind of started to figure it out because the ratio was better and my approach was different. And so when I started not over communicating interest and we had these situations where women would come talk to us, like I had a glimpse of like, okay, I'm the same guy here.

54:50I'm the same guy here, but I'm getting way better results here. Why? And that was like the first time I read the game and so I got a little bit of an insight on it. And I would say the game was kind of like similar to like our poker theory in the beginning. It's like it's an idea, some of it's right, you know, but some is really wrong too. and I don't think that people are even close to figuring out what is actually effective. I did a pretty good job. I laid out a good framework of the common mistakes that guys are making. What you can do correctly, hacks, mindset shifts, traveling should be about the journey, not the chaos of packing, which is why I'm in love with nomatics, backpacks, and their carrions.

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56:05So you can buy it, fill it with your possessions for 29 days, and if you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. Right now, you can get a 20 % discount off everything site -wide by going to the link in the description below, or heading to nomatic .com slash modern wisdom using the code MW20. A checkout that's nomatic .com slash modern wisdom and MW20. A checkout. Break it down for me. What are the common assumptions, the biggest ones that are holding guys back when it comes to attracting women? What are the reframes or the best strategies that you've deconstructed from yourself? Okay, so the most common problems I would say would be some mindsets, like, you know, limiting beliefs, the big one, like thinking like, oh, I'm not tall, so women aren't going to be attracted to me, or I'm not rich, so I can't get women.

56:49You know, like all these reasons why they're not attracted to those things, not matter? No, they don't matter at all. Like at all. Like the things that actually can make a woman pursue you or chase you or be interested in you. Like, you know, Bill's a perfect example. He had all the things, not one, not two, not three. He had every single thing that guys think that they need to get women. Plus it doesn't island. You deserve it island with 36 girls. Like you couldn't get a better scenario. So like that is literal proof that like all these things, you know, still didn't get light. Exactly, that's not gonna solve your problem.

57:21because here's a guy that had all those things and he still didn't do it, right? And I have another sample of a bunch of guys with my fraternity that were short, that didn't have money, that weren't that smart, all this stuff, and they got a ton of pussy. So like, I just know that it's not the traditional things that guys think that they need. That's a part of it. But I think like, like I said, when I kind of like deconstructed it, the biggest epiphany that I had was the difference of when you are chasing a woman or you're pursuing a woman versus when she's pursuing you. And like the flaws disappearing on both sides.

57:54When a woman's chasing you, your flaws disappear. Her flaws magnify. Just like when the, you know, when the really, you know, stage five, Klinger Girl hits you up all the time. It's like, you're not interested in her. Maybe she can suck your dick on a Friday night if you strike out at 3 a .m., right? But like, you know, the same thing's true for women is like when these guys massively overcommunicate interest, they know they can have them. And then it's like a conversation of do they want them. And when you're looking at flaws, you're gonna find them. Like you've got flaws, I've got flaws, like everybody has flaws, right?

58:22So when you're looking for flaws, you know, they stand out. But when you're pursuing something, you know, like think an auction, you know, like five guys want something, five guys are bidding for something and like you really want it and you have this like, you know, idea in your mind of like when you wanted something, you didn't get it in the sphere of loss. You're not thinking about what's wrong with it. How do I get it? Right? Just like, you know, and this is probably the most common mistake guys make is like, this girl's hot. How do I fuck her? You know, that's the thought process. is like, oh my God, she's so beautiful.

58:48Like, I would marry that girl. How many times you heard a guy say like, oh my God, she's so hot, I would marry her. It's like, what if she has AIDS? What if she's a pathological liar? What if she's like 95 ,000 guys? What if she's just like, you know, a serial cheater? Like, well, you know, what if this girl has a massive problem? What if she's bipolar? What if she's got a massive alcohol problem? Whatever, right? Like, dig a little bit deeper. Like, be discerning, you know? Like, go into the interaction, like wanting to find out more about the girl, not just accepting her looks is being enough.

59:17And I think that's the biggest problem that guys make is that they just like the looks are enough and then the conversations like how do I get hurt like me. So you're already going in there with a handicap. You know like when a salesman comes in like he's already coming in from a handicap versus like when somebody goes into the store because they need milk they just go to the aisle they find the milk and they buy it. Versus if you show up at the door and you try and sell a milk they'll be like oh who is this guy is the milk old can I trust this you know what I mean like Like the difference like when you want something, it's just like how do I get it?

59:47It's not, you know, the same conversation. And so that would be the biggest thing. And I figured that out because I had a big sample size of girls that wanted to fuck me that I screwed it up with. And a big sample size of girls that wanted to fuck me that I also had sex with. And I think that's like, look, in a experiment, you have to have the control group, right? Most guys do not have the control group. Like I literally had girls sending me but naked photos on Instagram, I want to fuck you. And I screwed it up with those girls. So I'm just saying, only in cross comparing what worked and what didn't work with two sample sizes of girls that both wanted to sleep with me could have figured out.

1:00:20Given that you're the same guy to both of them. Exactly, because there are girls that just wouldn't want to sleep with me because I'm Armenian or I have a shitty haircut or whatever, right? There's gonna be girls that just wouldn't fuck me period. So because I had that sample that I knew that they wanted to sleep with me and I screwed it up, I was able to figure out the things that I was doing wrong. And one of the big things that I was doing wrong was like I was overcommunicating interest. I would have problems with the girls that I was like, oh damn, like this girl's hot, she's different, or like, I really like her, whatever.

1:00:49And my approach would change. And because my approach would change, my results would change. What about the sort of treat the mean to keep them keen, slash not signaling sufficient interest that that person, that girl doesn't actually end up responding to you at all, I think, well, he's not interested. So this doesn't go anywhere. So I wouldn't say treat them mean. I would say change your default setting from nice to challenging. You know, because like a lot of these guys, like they aren't really nice guys, like, oh, like, you know, I just want to be a nice, it's like you're not that nice to the fat chick, you're not that nice to the janitor, you're nice to this girl because you want a fucker.

1:01:27You know, so like this whole idea of like, oh, I'm just being myself or like, that's another one. It's like, I just want to be myself. Like, I want her to light me for me. It's like, okay, well, there's different versions of you. There's a version of you in a nermani suit. There's a version of you dressed like shit. You know, there's a version of you where you like take care of your diet and work out and like you know work at your Job and there's a version of you that just like succumbs to every one of your You know impulses like you know like I drive by McDonald's and like you know I just want to eat fries, but I don't you know like I want to have Snickers all day But I don't you know like you can make yourself better and I think you know a lot of guys don't do that Like a lot of guys are just like I want a girl to light me for me So get tactical for a moment with regards to Guy Has -Gal that he thinks she's hot.

1:02:11She's interesting. I want to pursue her What is a better Tactical way of moving toward that. What should they do? Well, I mean, I would not start the interaction by over communicating interest number one So I would go up and you know have a conversation with her, you know I mean I've asked girls crazy stuff I take like a pretty extreme approach and I wouldn't recommend this for you know all guys but like all those girls crazy questions. Like me and my buddy were having a conversation the other day and like he was like, I think it's, I was arguing that I think you have a lower chance of getting a serious rejection if you put a girl's hand in your dick than if you go for a kiss.

1:02:46And this is after a girl's into you and like you guys have been on a date or whatever and there's like, you know, some chemistry, whatever. And he was like, you're out of your mind like this that and the other guy was like, okay, well let's ask some girls. So like I just would go up to a girl and I'd be like, hey, you know, like this is the, this is the question. Like, you know, what do you, I wouldn't frame like like who was on which side, but like they wanted answers. So they gave their answer. Now all of a sudden, we're in a sexual conversation with a girl where I haven't communicated any interest to her at all and I'm almost disqualified her because I'm asking her this question that like, usually wouldn't ask her.

1:03:14It's not about you. Exactly. You wouldn't ask a girl that you're trying to like hook up with because it's like a crazy question too. And so I'm not saying that that would be, you know, the optimal approach, but I'm just saying like, that's something that like most guys wouldn't think to do but that it's more successful than going up over communicating answers, putting a girl in a position where like she has to decide, like accept a reject. And usually when they're like forced to accept a reject, usually reject as a default. And if it's not, then they're probably a horror if they just like accept every guy that comes up to them.

1:03:40This is your chasing versus choosing paradigm. Well, yeah. So, you know, get into the interaction. And you know, the caveat to that is like, what you say to a girl, is it necessarily how important is like how you say it? So you could go up and say some really stupid shit to open the conversation. It doesn't really matter. Like as long as you get in there without massively over communicating interest, right? And then I would say be discerning, you know, be challenging. Like, you know, ask questions, dig deeper, get a little bit of information about it, you know. I mean, Neil Strauss had a good one when he was on with Jessica Alba and he said, you know, you know, looks are common in LA.

1:04:16Aside from your looks, like what would your friends say are the three, you know, best qualities about you? And like in that one question, he immediately like, pulled away her looks, which was like one of her strongest attributes, like nobody give a fuck about Jessica Alba, she's ugly, right? It's literally like her superpower. He just sucked it right out at the conversation. He's also digging deeper. And now he's got her in a position of like qualifying herself to him and selling herself to him. She's telling him why she's good, you know? And so that would be a much better start of inter -neuraction than like, you know, I think you're so beautiful.

1:04:49Like I just had to come over here and, you know, and by the way, I'm a doctor, you know, on a driver Lamborghini and like all this bullshit the guys like, you know, they try and brag about themselves. They're doing all these things and the girls is like in a position of like, okay, you know, like do I want this That's that's the conversation. Usually between guys and girls is like the girls like okay Do I want this guy it's like playing poker and the guys just like turn over their cards and so I would say like you know Dig a little bit deeper be discerning like find out about the girl like you know decide and then if you want to give her a Comp and give her a compliment on like something that's unique about her something that's like she earned or you know Not just like she was born with you know like if she has pretty eyes I'm sure she's heard that from a million guys.

1:05:26Like don't tell her she has pretty eyes. You know, like just be different. I mean, I guess like a big epiphany I had too was like when I became famous, you know, and I talk about this in there too, is like understanding a hot girl's mind because when I became famous, like I understood what it was like to be a hot chick. And I just stood that in the sense of like I had forced interactions wherever the fuck I would go. Whether it was a Starbucks, whether it was, you know, wherever like I had people coming up to me and the same thing is true of a girl. Like when she goes to get her mail When she goes to the grocery store like guys are hitting on her all the time So it's force interactions and what I noticed is the first hundred times guys would come up to me and be like bro You're the man blah blah blah like you know all this shit.

1:06:05I was like okay cool, you know whatever and I always take the pictures You know, but I guess what I'm trying to you know explain with that is Let's say you were a famous guy and a guy comes up to you like bro You're the man dude like all this shit and you've heard this 10 ,000 times is that gonna make you want to have a beer with that guy? No, like maybe you'll take a photo with them. You'll tell me appreciate it But it's not gonna make you want to like hang out with him now that guy comes up to you and is like hey, man You know only got a second, but I just want to tell you like you know I really like this you know Maybe the guys are rock star and I really like the song that you did he told told him a song that he did like in the Garage is like and I had the same guitar that you had and whatever and then he's just like kind of excusing himself in the way out Maybe that rocks are like wants to have a conversation with oh shit that guitar You know, that's what one of my favorite guitars, you know like now you're coming out from a different angle And I would say the same thing is true with hot girls is like if you go up and say the same shit that all these other guys have said Of these girls you're gonna have the same knee jerk reaction the walls are gonna go up Mm -hmm.

1:06:59She's gonna remember the last 20 times she got caught in 30 -minute conversation with some lady talking her ear off and she knows that the guy just wants to fuck her because she's built no value Right like early on the conversation and we compliment her a bunch before she's earned it And it's kind of like you're telling her indirectly You above me you're above me and your looks are good enough I don't even care if you're flush like you're hot and so that's enough for me and I'm ready to date you For the last three years I've started my morning with element element is a Tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't each grab and go stick contains An evidence -based blend of electrolytes including magnesium potassium and sodium with no sugar no coloring no artificial ingredients or any other junk.

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1:08:14Right now you can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors of your first box by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to drinklmnt .com slash modern wisdom that's drinklmnt .com slash modern wisdom. It's so funny that kind of a playground mentality of if I know that I can have it I don't want it And it's so funny how that seems to be in your world, if you like a fundamental part of the physics. Which translates to everything. It's sales, it's negotiation, it's business, it's all these things. The person that can walk away from the deal is the one that holds the most power. Always.

1:08:51So here's a big one. How do guys not get intimidated or nervous by hot women? Well, I mean, there's like the correct way and then there's hacks. I mean, you can just like, pretend like the girl is chlamydia. You know, if you like, mentally kind of like, register like she has chlamydia and like, you wouldn't fuck her even if she wanted to fuck you, you're gonna interact differently with that girl. And so that would be like the first hack to just like, tell a guy, you know what I mean? Like if they go out to a super hot chick and they're just otherwise gonna be really giddy and you know, nervous and just like excited and all they can think about is like, you know, how do I get this girl like me and then that they're actually on a date with the girl which they probably never will be, you know, like, you know, should I make a move now?

1:09:30All this shit, right? But like, if you give her a chlamydia, you just like suck all that out. And then you take away that anxiety. He's not thinking about like, how do I have sex with her? He's not thinking about like, should I make a move now? And he's gonna interact with her differently. And that's one of the things is like, interact with these girls. Like they don't have a bunch of power over you. Like, you don't need them. Needingness is not attractive. Right? And I think that's one of the things that guys sub -communicate when they overcomplement, when they over -chase, when they do a lot of things that guys do.

1:10:01Is they just put themselves in a category of like, you know, the Needy guy, which is most men and if you want to have, you know, if you want to have success with a super hot girl Like don't act like all the rest of the guys How should guys build confidence because it's all well and good Saying that you should be the prize and you should make a chase, but what if you've got low self esteem? Yeah, I mean that's gonna be a problem that a lot of guys are gonna have to deal with right so By not making the conversation binary right by not hitting on the girl you're actually going to lower the pressure.

1:10:32Because if you just, let's just say you just ask for directions, not that that's like, you know, the correct way, but I'm just saying as an example, you're not getting nervous to ask a girl for directions, right? But you're going to get nervous if you feel like you're going to get rejected, right? And you get rejected when you communicate interest or you put her in a position like, you know, you give her compliments or you kind of like state your intentions, you tell her, you know, that, you know, you think she's beautiful and you want to buy her a drink or whatever the fuck it is. So I would say go into the interaction from a standpoint of like, I just want to get to know this person, I want to find out more, I want to dig deeper.

1:11:05Like act like you're on the bachelor and you've got 20 other options. You're not just going to pick the first option. Like you're going to want to know more about this girl. And if you go into the interaction with that, you're going to subcommunicate a lot more value because that's how a guy that has options is going to act. So you can kind of act as if and you can cheat the system a little bit and you can like do some hacks in your mind to like put you in a better headspace, which is gonna then subcommunicate subcommunicate confidence. And when you do that, then you're gonna have better results.

1:11:33When you have better results, you're actually gonna naturally have more confidence. You're gonna have less anxiety because you're not putting yourself in a position to get rejected, right? And so there's a lot of things that you can do. And so my game has always been about like doing less to get a better result. And I think a mistake that a lot of guys make is they put in a lot of perceived effort. And this is before sex. So before sex, the amount of effort that you put in is gonna cut negatively against you. And this is very counterintuitive for a lot of guys, because in life in your job, in business, the more effort the more you're gonna get a raise or the more likely to get a promotion, you show up at your buddy's house at 2 a .m.

1:12:11to bail him out or whatever, you bail him out of jail, like the things that you do for your friends, like then they'll have your back, right? So like all this effort is rewarded everywhere in life except for dating. So the more effort that you put in before you have sex with a girl, the harder it's going to be actually to have sex with that girl And I think a lot of guys don't understand that concept What would you say to The women on the internet that go but guys don't make enough effort with me I want them to make effort. I want them to show me that they're interested. There's enough Lithuario playboy guys out there.

1:12:42It's actually really attractive when a guy shows me that he's interested and displays effort She's lying like I mean, I think it's I think it's good to give effort after it's justified or deserve But like I just ignore almost everything that women say because it's almost all bullshit because you ask women Like what do you want in a guy and then you look at the last 20 guys? They're fucked and they have like almost none of those things a little less so like asking which is why like women dating coaches They're just like such a waste of time because there's what women say they want and then there's what they respond to what they respond to is What's important right so and I don't think a lot of them understand like the subconscious response mechanisms to like one big one is pre -selection and jealousy.

1:13:19Like those are very powerful. Talk to me about that. So pre -selection, you arriving or you being around other attractive girls, not everybody has access to a hundred -check haram in a desert island. What can guys do to get that pre -selection going? I'm actually not like teaching do what I did, because that's not really the direction that I feel like most guys are probably going to want to go down and I don't think it's really like an achievable thing. what I'm teaching is more like, and I say teaching, like I'm not trying to be like a dating coach, I just want to kind of like put the right information out there so these guys have a roadmap to get what they want to go.

1:13:57And I think the big thing is, if they just didn't do the things wrong, they would have a massive leg up. So we just like start with like don't do the come mistakes. and then also, when I say put an effort, I think it should be reciprocated too. Like a buddy of mine, he would have girls pick up a gallon of milk on the way to his house. He didn't even drink milk, but the act of them doing something for them made them more invested in the relationship. And so, these guys, the effort is not gonna be correlated to your positive outcome. If you showed up to your first date with chocolates and roses, you're not gonna be more likely to sleep with that girl.

1:14:39In fact, I would argue that it would be much less likely to sleep with that girl. And so it's just, listen, once you're in a relationship, you can put an effort. But I think the effort needs to reciprocate it because the problem is if you're the only one putting an effort, if you subscribe to this like happy wife, happy life bullshit, then what happens is that effort becomes expected and not appreciated. And that's when women cheat on guys. When the guy is like constantly, because those are all a form of chasing. When you're constantly like making concessions, let's say movies, for instance, like, you You know, a woman would be happier watching an action movie on the third movie.

1:15:12You know, like, let's say she wanna watch a romcom and you came and you're like, okay, fine, I'll watch a romcom. Second one, okay, you know, we can watch that. On the third one, you're like, no, tonight we're watching an action movie. She's gonna be happier watching that shitty movie that she doesn't like because she's next to a man that she respects than watching some stupid romcom with some guy that she feels like as a pushover. Very pliable. If people want boundaries, like you want that too, I want that, like I like a submissive woman, but I still want her to have like some sense of self. Not an absolute dormant.

1:15:41Well, I wanted to have some sense of self. Like, I want to know who she is, you know? Like, I want, she, like, she needs to stand up for something once in a while. There's a sort of degree of untrustworthiness to someone that if I can't trust you, I know how can I trust you, yes. And my favorite example of this is Alex Holmosey. So, Laila, his wife is big into fashion and she gets dressed up and she's, you know, makeup and new hair and she's like a fashion -y sort of chick. Alex was short to wife, Peter, and Crocs with long socks. And he said, it's a really interesting point that Layla is more attracted to me wearing the things that I want to wear than wearing the things that she wants me to wear.

1:16:23She's way more attracted to the guy that does what he wants to do, even if it's not what she wants to do. Because that's a real person. Correct. That's unique to him. That's what makes him him. This is an interesting point that I really want to try and dig into. We've got this and I think a lot of people will feel this tension between sort of authenticity and presenting yourself in the most appropriate way without being so contrived and sort of deceitful and manipulative that the person that shows up on the date is actually a million miles away from who you really are How do you think about that balance between authenticity and cultivating sort of the best version of you to put that foot forward?

1:17:10You know what I mean? You know, this tension. I do. I think it's a great question, a good point. It's so, I mean, there's different levels to this stuff and there's different parts. So I think a common mistake that guys make is they're like, you know what, I'm just gonna be honest with her. I'm just gonna like tell her how I feel and like, you know, and so they go in there and they're like, you know what, like, you know, spend two dates and like I really fucking like you and I wanna, you know, monogamous, they just like overstep too early and it's like, yeah, okay, that's honest, but are you really that honest?

1:17:40Like the next time you guys walk out on a date and you see a girl with big tits are gonna tell her like, you know, oh damn, like that girl has really nice tits. I was thinking about fucking her. Like there's limits to like what you're, you know, you can over share, right? And so I think you should be honesty and that you should be honest and that's like a corner or stone of my belief system. Like I am like unapologetically honest. So I am like, if a girl asks me a question, I am like ruthlessly honest. So that's something that I for sure believe in. And I don't believe in like kind of presenting, you know, false narratives or like acting to, you know, like somebody that you're not.

1:18:14But I do believe in like being the best version of yourself and also, you know, in playing poker, you know, like they're playing poker, you can play poker. Like it's okay, like it's a bit of a game until you have sex. like, and then you have to decide if you want to date. So I think this idea, like you owe them, you know, the entire truth about every single thing that you're thinking all the time before you even get to know them is just kind of a nonsense. So there's this sort of a little bit of a tension between truly being yourself, standing up to the things that you want, maybe wearing the the the Crocs is a preference for you and might make her more attracted, even if it's not the thing that she would want, whilst also not being a completely sort of open vessel, and totally transparent.

1:18:54I see what you're saying. I think Alex gets away with that because he has value in so many other areas. Like if he wasn't rich, if it wasn't smart, if it wasn't successful, if it wasn't confident, if it wasn't all these other things, you know, if he didn't have pre -selection, like obviously other women probably want him, like there's a whole thing, right? Social status, you know, he's got a lot of attraction triggers. They can get away with that. I mean, look at me. I look like shit. I have a terrible I'm wearing a cheap watch. I don't give a f**k, you know? I wear a f**k hoodie, hugger shorts, and I still get a ton of pussy.

1:19:25I think, well, I mean, you know what a counter signal is right from psychology. So there's something called the Red Sneaker effect, which is as CEOs, or as people within companies get higher up in terms of their job title, and also as they become richer at the head founder CEO level, they dress increasingly more casually. So it's like the dude that's just graduated law school making sure that you call him by his preferred title the dude with 20 letters after his name that's a leading brain surgeon and has been for 50 years saying just call me John So counter signaling is kind of that. I had this theory, which I think is true that Mastache is a counter signals for guys that it's basically them saying I've got so much surplus mate value that I can like retard myself with this thing on my upper lip and still pull and it's kind of the same with the crocs.

1:20:18It's kind of the same with yeah, that's like high level game. That's like, okay, I'm like, it's just kind of like this guy. I saw some YouTube videos of him and he will go up to girls and just say retarded shit to open and have success, you know, and it's kind of like he's signaling that like what you're saying is not that important, but like he's doing it with such a degree of confidence And then he also falls up the conversation with like being a semi normal human being and he's also good looking and all this stuff But like I guess the point is that Sometimes if you're if you are confident and you've got this stuff down to the sides I mean like me and my friends we would just basically give each other the line that we would have to go up to a girl with and it was just Trot just like really really stupid offensive dumb shit You know and we just have to deliver that we'd have to deliver it deadpan We couldn't say oh my friend bet me to say this and we would have crazy success with that We would actually have better success with that than we would if we wouldn't have.

1:21:08For your own line. Well, with what the world thinks is correct to say. You know, and so I think you have a point, but I think that you have to get to a certain level to do that. Get round out the pre -selection thing for me. I don't think we'd close that loop. Okay. So pre -selection is basically like women believing that other hot women want to sleep with you. So, you know, jealousy would be them being jealous of other women and seeing it, you know, pre -selection is kind of like, I don't know if a girl sees it, you have four million Instagram followers, she's just gonna assume that girls want to fuck you, right?

1:21:44Because you have a level of fame, whatever. Like, and so I think pre -selection, you know, and then there's like, you know, visual forms of it. Like, I would show up at the club with two or three girls that were like sitting on my lap that like, you know, I had hooked up with that were like trying to kiss me all this and then like women would just come up. I could literally just like do like a come here and go fuck a girl in the bathroom without even talking to her sometimes because the pre -selection was so strong. So it's not something that I would like say, every guy's gonna, I'm just saying you should understand all the different track triggers.

1:22:11And there's ways to like trigger stuff too. Like let's say on an Instagram story, you just took a picture of a, you know, your beer glass and a martini glass next to it. Now's it, now's your story. Now girls would be like, who's you with? You know, who's that girl? And maybe there was just like a, you saw a nail, or ring or something in the photo. It's like you can trigger jealousy and you can trigger free selection without like being in your face. Like I'm not like telling people to do the shit that I did. You know, you don't have to be there with 30 girls and all this stuff. Like I went to a circus level extreme, but mine was more like solving for fame and it was like abundance and it was like a lifestyle and then it was a brand and it was a whole thing.

1:22:48So like what I did had a reason behind it. And also I was just, that was part of my life. I just wanted to live this crazy life and I was documenting it and it was like a bucketless thing, but like I don't think I optimized for getting laid like I had tons of girls, but I would not say my Instagram Optimized for getting laid and it's certainly not for like the highest quality of girls either like super hot Yes, you know, but like not the best like quality like almost like like filter that out almost and so I wouldn't recommend that What was some of the more surprising realizations or reflections or attraction trigger insights that you had when going through this?

1:23:29What were the things that you go, oh, actually, I didn't realize that and I didn't realize that and I didn't realize that. The biggest one was just how powerful the difference was between, you know, pursuing and being pursued. That was probably the most like, when I really broke it down because I realized like on the one side it's like, you know, when you're chasing your flaws are magnified. But I didn't realize like that also the opposite effect was true. When a girl's chasing you, her flaws are magnified and your flaws disappear. And like the exponential effect of switching that does that mean that guys, if they do become a little bit more successful, they make themselves the pursuit as opposed to the pursuer that they kind of need to reframe a little.

1:24:11Oh, well, I fixating on what like she's got a wrinkly elbow, like shut the fuck up. Like, that doesn't need to be that. No, it's more just the sense of being more discerning, like being like, you know, picky with who you want to be with, not just... Revolutionary. Not yet, not just accepting a girl's looks. Like, that's a big thing. There's a big mistake the guys make. I've seen so many guys that are just with a girl because she's hot. And it's like, dude, with $100 million, you're a smart guy, you're successful, and you're dating a little poker because she's pretty. And I think guys need to get out of that mindset and start digging deeper and start making girls prove themselves, making the girls compete.

1:24:51Being the wife or girlfriend of a guy that's worth hundreds of millions of dollars and that's smart and successful, that's a prize. That's great for the people that are $100 million. That's an extreme example. It owns normal money. For the normal guys, it's the same concepts. Honestly, mostly girls that are dating those guys are cheating on those guys with the normal guys. They're f**king the pool guy, they're f**king the pool guy. Like a lot of times they're cheating with those other guys. And so you don't have to have the money that says, I'm just saying that's one where there's like a big disparity and they're not taking advantage of the fact that like, they could have a better relationship with the girl if they just framed it differently and treated the girl a little bit differently and didn't like over -chase.

1:25:33Cause when you're chasing something, it can't chase you back. That's another like key point too, is like, the moment you start pursuing, they can't pursue. So I've had women that were like literally like chasing after me and the moment I like showed them too much interest, it like, oh shit, like. Killed the attraction. Well, I can have them now, you know, it's real. Like shit, do it. Now I have the dissident, like question, do I want to fuck the ampels there? And like, you know, he wants to, maybe that's enough. And I think with a lot of girls that just alone can be enough. The validation. I wonder as well how many girls you're kind of selecting for that is psychologically unhealthy for whom that is such an immediate turn off.

1:26:10Well, psychology transcends all of this stuff. It's true whether you're damaged, whether you're 100 % put together, like humans just respond. Like every human response to an auction, when you're buying something, you wanna like every house that you buy, you wanna have an inspection, we're just wired the same way. As much as we wanna think that we're very different, like humans are herd animals. I mean, you saw that during COVID, you've seen that numerous times with how much the media can sway. So we are herd animals, and people react, you know, psychology is psychology. So, you know, like a super smart girl is still not immune to intermittent positive reinforcement.

1:26:47You know, like there are certain principles that are gonna apply regardless. I wonder how many girls that are listening, are thinking, yeah, there's been guys that were perfect for me. Everything was right, and he just got too keen, and there's some switch that kind of gets turned off. And I wish that that wasn't the case. I wish that it wasn't the case that when a guy shows too much interest in me that there's something kind of odd going on. So very much that push and pull, that sort of balance between the two, you know, 60, 40, 70, 30 as opposed to 100 zero. And that's the problem. It's like it's okay to show interest and you should show interest and there should be some push pull.

1:27:25That's the problem is there's not usually push pull. It's usually one person is chasing and then it's usually the guy and the girl's like, okay, well, you know, fucking 29, you know, kind of want to have kids like, you know, maybe it's time to stop fucking athletes. Like this guy's really nice. You know, and then she goes into the relationship with the wrong frame. You know, like she could end up with the same guy and be happy if he just behaved slightly differently. And I'm not saying like he should be manipulative or gamey or whatever, but it's just like, don't do certain things. You know what I mean?

1:27:54Like wait a little bit for this. You know, like don't jump the gun. Like, you know, just have some patience. Talk to me about the admin. Is there any way to make the admin easier? What do you mean the admin? Well, you're dating, you're speaking to girls. There's the back and forth. It's like another inbox to manage with a couple of chicks that you're speaking to. Maybe you go for a date with this one, so on and so forth. For a lot of guys, I think that that can get kind of like tiresome and exhaustive. I'd certainly know a good few of my friends who, when they have gotten into relationships, you know, they're happy that they found someone that cares for them and they're happy that they're with somebody that they can spend evenings with and go on holiday with.

1:28:34and they're very, very happy that they no longer have to do the additional mailbox admin of Raya or Tinder or Bumble, Hinge or whatever. Yeah, I mean, it's going to be work to find the right partner, but if you want to find somebody that's going to bury your children, I'd say it's a pretty important decision. If you want to find somebody to stick your dick in, it's just hot, then you know, maybe less important. So, you know, it's just kind of like to me, like, who you choose to spend the rest of your life with is the most important decision you'll ever make in your life. Who you choose to date is probably with the second most important decision, right?

1:29:03So, I mean, yeah, it can be time consuming for sure. And it's in that sucks. That is a shady part of it. And there's ways to like, you know, lower that time. And that's one of the things that I want to do too, is like just give people better results with less effort. And in lowering the effort, they're saving more of their time. But yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's a shortcut to like, you know, just immediately finding the right one. I don't think I have that cheat code. But I'm sorry. Do you have an idea about how much time and attention should be spent by keeping things taking over digitally versus trying to get dates to happen.

1:29:34Did you get into cadence of seeing each other or all of that kind of stuff? Um, no, not like into the real like nuanced stuff like that. You know, I didn't do a ton of online dating. So that wasn't really my thing. I mean, I teach guys like kind of the social media optimization and like how to use your socials, you know, not posting 20 stories, you know, and like like if you're gonna post like, you know, have some time between posts, your engagement is better and like, you know, don't do needy posts. And if you're gonna, you know, if you really wanna post and like brag about your car, like make the post not just about your car.

1:30:07You know what I'm saying? Like there's ways to communicate the things that you wanna communicate, communicate, attraction triggers without being like, really brag you're on the nose about it. I think captions help. There's like, I mean social media is like a whole separate thing that I kinda like cover, but I think if I were to like summarize a social media, it would be like more like, you know, communicating the things that you want to communicate without overtly bragging, which is kind of funny coming from me. But very rich. What are the big pitfalls that guys do when it comes to the online social media?

1:30:40I mean, look, who do you brag to? You brag to people that you're trying to impress. And so if you're trying to impress people, then they kind of like have to be above you, right? So if your social media is like really bragging, then you're going to kind of come up as insecure. So So you can communicate value, you can show that you live in a nice house, you can show that you have a fun life, you can show cool stuff. But the way to do it isn't necessarily like be standing in front of your Corvette with four stacks of cash. You know, like there's just ways to show things without... Tell that to Rappas.

1:31:10All of the Rappas. Yeah, well you know they're holding that worth because they're wearing it at all points at times. It's almost like an indicator, you know, like IRS. Yeah, yeah. You guys got 400 ,000. But yeah, they're an extreme example, but I still see a lot of guys like make a lot of mistakes on social media And I think social media is you know, it's a powerful dating app. It's you know the thing about social media is We're talking primarily Instagram here. I'm getting asked. Yeah, I mean TikTok It doesn't even allow you to message somebody that's not following you, which is kind of crazy They don't even like tap into the dating element of it, but whatever and Yeah, my experience has been most of the Instagram.

1:31:44So um Yeah, with IG, it's kind of like when you do a story, you're indirectly almost texting every single girl on your phone without communicating any interest. And then if they respond to your story because you post something cool or something, you know, the causes foam over, they wish they were there or whatever, now they're, you know, maybe they heart the story. And now they have started the interaction. So now they're chasing. Right. So like, there's an example of like how you can do something very subtly, like obviously, like posting one story would be a lot easier than texting every girl on your phone.

1:32:13So there's ways to save time with this. And still get in their mind, have them thinking about you, communicate value, build attraction. So yeah, social media is a tool. I don't choose to use it, but that doesn't mean it's not valuable. How can guys set expectations more effectively? You've mentioned about being honest and truthful, but a lot of the time there's a big discomfort. There's bravery and courage that's needed in guys to be able to do that. what's, how can they set expectations and how can they sort of learn to be more open and honest and truthful? Um, I think you're saying set expectations, kind of like set boundaries.

1:32:52No, expect this is what I want. This is the sort of thing that this is going to be series. This is not going to be series. I'm looking for the mother of my kid. I'm just looking for something that is casual. Someone asks you, are you seeing other people, etc, etc? Like, how do you set those expectations? Well, For me, I'm brutally honest. Like, I'm just brutally honest about it. Like, if I'm seeing other people, I'm, and she asks, then I tell her. So that's my approach. And I think when you do that, you also sub -communicate confidence because you're telling them that the truth is more important than, you know, whether or not they walk.

1:33:26And that's, to me, is like, you know, and that's not why I do it. I just do it because that's my moral code and that's just how I operate. And honestly, it's like super, super important to me. Like, in a partner, it's actually like, you know, really, really high on the list. So, and in order to ask for that, I have to offer it myself. That being said, it doesn't mean I'm telling these guys to just blur out every thought that comes into their mind. But if a girl asks a hard question, it'd be honest. If they walk, then they walk. And I think being willing to let them walk, I think that would come a mistake that guys make it.

1:33:55I think this is one of the reasons why like almost every girl that I've ever dated doesn't have anything bad to say about me, because I never bullshed it at them. I think a lot of guys in LA sell the dream. They tell girls that like, oh, you know, you could be the one, or I'm gonna take you to meet my, you know, they just say all this bullshit. They say whatever they think the girl wants to hear so they can fuck them, or say they can string them along and date the three or four girls, and I was just, you know, that wasn't my school of thought. I was always just like brutally honest, and because I was honest, I made the girls like, oh shit, and I also set a standard of what was acceptable too.

1:34:22And I set a crazy standard, because I one time had a girl ask me like, how many girls have you slept with this week? Or how many girls have you, you know, have you, you know, slept in any of the girls, and I was like, in what time frame? Sorry, I jumped the gun a little bit. She's like, you know, have you been sleeping any of the girls? And I was like, you know, in what time frame we were talking about and she goes, I don't know in last week. And I was like, yes, and she's like, how many? And I was like four. She's used up with four girls the last week. It's like, yeah, but I used condoms, you know, and then she was just like, that was it for her.

1:34:50That was like her red line and she was out. But two days later, she came back and you know what? When she actually came back, she thought about it. She had processed it. And she was like, you know what? Like I just really respect the fact that you just are gonna shoot me straight. And I know that whatever you tell me after this point is gonna be true because like nobody would tell the truth about that and then lie about anything else, right? And because of that, I was able to, you know, have a, you know, have a relationship where I dated her and was able to sleep with whoever I wanted and she never gave me shit about it and she, you know, respected the honesty.

1:35:22And that was like an unusual thing, but you know, it was because of, you know, that raw honesty upfront. I wouldn't know how many girls would find it sort of refreshing even if it's something that they maybe don't want to hear For the truth to be sort of so plain. I mean, I would I mean, I always ask and this is like You know people think this is crazy, but I ask girls You know usually in the first five minutes of talking them how many guys have slept with I asked them like what the sluddies Thing they've done with the most fucked up thing like I just get right to the heart of it You know and I just because that's interesting to me like most of what I you know talk to models about is not that interesting thing, but like what her body count is or what she says her body count is is interesting because it tells me like what kind of lie she's going to tell, you know, and it's like, but if she says like a number like, you know, 73, then it's like, okay, it was shit.

1:36:05Like this girl's honest, right? But any any like low number, I just assume that she's lying. And then, you know, and then I'll process it, you know, and then like later on, it's like, you know, you know, maybe I can catch her. And if I catch a girl in one lie, then I kind of like don't trust them from that point on. But like I said, I like to ask questions like that to get to the heart of, you know, kind of like, you know, what their value system is, like, you know, how honest they are, like how crazy they are, how fun they are, how sexually liberated they are, like whatever it is. And like it won't always blow them out.

1:36:34Like I'm not a guy that says that girls only, you know, can sleep with three guys or not can take them seriously, whatever. Like for me, like I said, honesty is like up here, their body count is like more down here. Are there any other big attraction triggers that we haven't covered? Well, I mean, there's a decent amount of traction triggers. I mean, some of them are, you know, are going to be ones that you would know, like, you know, looks or money or, you know, whatever, but, you know, they're in the status. There's pre -selection. There's, you know, there's other ones that are somewhat counterintuitive.

1:37:01They're status. There's, you know, leader of men. There's, you know, there's a bunch of different ones that will, you know, trigger traction on different scales, but sometimes just want attraction triggers enough. Like, pre -selection alone could just be enough. You know, humor sometimes could just be enough. It just depends on how strong it is, but that's one of the things. Identify what attraction triggers you have and then lean on those. Or favorite interactions that would favor those attraction triggers. If you're a particularly funny guy, don't go to nightclubs when no one can hate you speak.

1:37:31Exactly. Play to your strong suits. If you're a really unattractive guy, then maybe dating apps are probably not going to be the best thing for you. Or nightclubs also, because nightclubs, I think a lot of times, your initial reception is going to be partially based on look. What would your advice be to unattractive guys? I mean, it depends on what their attributes are, because I've seen a lot of unattractive guys with really hot girls. And so, if they're rich, then they can use their money in many different ways to create pipe lines of girls coming in. So then you can have jealousy, you can have pre -selection, you can have competition, all these things, and you can create scarcity.

1:38:15I mean, money's a powerful tool. Just most guys use it the wrong way. They'll like buy a girl a purse or they'll, you know, just stupid shit that actually hurts them. We spoke about this a year ago, and it seemed to me that when you were thinking this through the hypothesis that there's kind of two buckets, there's kind of every guy, normal guy stuff, and then there's this other kind of elite level lifestyle design type guy. what's interesting or unique or what's the setup for that guy that's maybe got a few limitations? Yeah, I mean, that would be for me the more fun to do more, you know, one -on -one stuff with because I can make a significant impact in his life and most rich guys are used to using their money to get what they want, but in dating a lot of times rich guys use their money and it cuts against them.

1:39:05How so? Well, they get right and wrong. They'll give a girl an allowance straight off the bat, you know, which is good for control, but it's not good for respect, you know, and I think, or they'll buy them purses before they've slept with them. And then the girl put, there's three buckets. There's guys that girls wanna fuck. There's guys that girls wanna date, and then there's both, right? What you don't wanna be in is the bucket of, I wanna date them, but I don't really wanna fuck them. That's the bucket that you fall into when you buy our purse before you have sex with her. You know, and so then she looks at you like how much can I get from this guy?

1:39:43You know she looks at you like more like a meal ticket or a sucker and the moment she does that then all of a sudden You have to be below her because she's taking advantage of you, you know, and so I see more guys use their money incorrectly to hurt them Then I see them use it to help them and and if you use your money to help you I mean skies of limit. I mean, I'm a good example of like what's possible if you deploy capital correctly I mean obviously that wasn't the only attraction trigger that I had and I really dedicated a lot of my life to my sex addiction, but like, you know, if you create a good environment, I mean, it's going to just make this massively accelerate.

1:40:15It's going to make it a lot easier. And then also you're going to have the pre -selection to work with. It's going to trigger the better women to chase you. And you're going to have a better relationship if the girl chase you. The more you can get a girl to chase you before, you know, you guys are in a serious relationship. And even in the relationship, the more she's going to respect you, the more she's going to value you. Like, you know, there's, there's relationships for this guy, you know, is massively higher value than the girl. But because he behaves a certain way, the girl not only doesn't respect him, but she's more likely to cheat on him versus that same guy and that same girl.

1:40:49If he acted correctly, that girl will be doing everything that she could to keep that guy happy. She'd be waking him up with blow jobs, she'd be doing all this stuff. She would look at him as much more of a prize. It's the same guy, but if he just acted correctly and didn't, you know, do these common mistakes that these rich guys do. Have you tried to use theory of mind to put yourself into the position of a guy that's a little bit more anxiously attached than you? Someone for whom when their partner maybe doesn't message back for a little while, or the girl that they're speaking to, or whatever, that they kind of get activated and they sort of want to push in a lot more.

1:41:25It's all well and good for you, sort of semi -sociopath dating man to, you know, like sort of cut through. We just mad at it, like working in this rational robotic kind of way, but emotions happen for some guys and that's gonna arise. And it creates a compulsion. It motivates them to behave in ways or deal with uncertainty. 100%. And look, I can lead a horse to water. I can't make them drink. I could tell them, you know, what's correct if he doesn't choose to do it because he can't control his impulse and his emotions and he has a bad result that's on him, right? So like, I mean, yeah, and that's, that's the problem is that, you know, when a guy feels a girl's pulling away, he's much more likely to massively engage in chase and chase, and that's actually what is going to send her right off the planet, right?

1:42:07That is going to send her out of the orbit of a girl that he's ever going to get back with. And so yeah, you're right, that is his instinct, and that's one of the things that he needs to not do is when the girl is pulling away, he needs to not over chase, right? He needs to just like, chill the out, take his annex, play cool, you know, and like not text or 50 times at night. Like, you ever seen swingers? No. You ever seen that movie you got to watch it? Anyways, this fucking guy like, you got to watch the movie. He calls his ex and he's like constantly like leaving messages on the recording. And anyways, when he stops carrying, then she wants to back.

1:42:38But it's classic movie. You got to watch swingers. Vince Vaughn. Anyways, point is that, yeah, I mean, that would be a classic example of a bad behavior pattern that is going to lead him to a bad result. I asked Jocco how to get over a breakup and what do you say, work out a three out? Yeah, I mean, there was like, do do do do do go for runs, lift weights, like, love a lot of plastic, get up at 4 .30 in the morning. But also he said walk away and don't look back. And this clip went like super duper viral. And it's him saying walk away and don't look back. If she's the right one, walk away and don't look back.

1:43:15If she's not the right one, walk away and don't look back. because if she's the right one, she'll come back around. Like, who knew that Jocke Willing can Dan Bilzerium, we're gonna arrive at the same piece of dating advice. That wasn't on my 2024 bingo card. Yeah, I mean, it is true though. I mean, I mean, you've probably seen this right when you broke up with a girl and she's like, okay, and walked and you're kind of like, shit. You know, but she's like, come on baby, let me make this work. It just pushes you away further. That's a good point actually. We've spoken an awful lot about starting things, but how can guys be good enders?

1:43:53Do you have any scripts or formats to follow when it's time to bring something to a close? That's not usually a problem. Most of these guys are going to have, but if you get good at the inflow, you're going to have to get good at the outflow unless you're going to begin spinning a ton of plates. I agree. And so for that, I mean, once again, it goes back to honesty. But try and let them down easily. Tell them about the things that they can change. But there's no, like if the reason that you, and I'm not saying this is right, but the reason that you broke up with this chick is she just really wasn't hot enough and you want to fuck out the girls.

1:44:29You probably shouldn't tell her, baby, you're just not hot enough I want to fuck out the girls, right? So there's like limitations. You don't want to ruin herself a steam, but if she has been too clingy and she's been very annoying, then you can be honest about her and you can tell her, look, like you're just driving me nuts, you're, you know, you check on my phone all the time, you're doing this, you're doing that and I just, it's not making me happy and I, you know, and I want to break up. Like you can tell her things that she can change. But what I wouldn't recommend is telling her things that she has no control over that's just gonna ruin herself a steam because that doesn't do you any good, it doesn't do her any good.

1:45:02So, yeah, and don't do it over text, you know, be a man like, you know, have the conversation. But if you've made up your mind, then I would say make up your mind. And if you, and if for some reason in this breakup, she's convinced you that you should take her back, I would say at a minimum, say, I want one week break, no talking, no communicating, no social media shit, just one week, no contact. And at the end of that week, you're going to have a pretty good idea of how much you miss her how much you know what I mean? You valued her interactions like how much that stuff really bought you know you just sometimes time is the best thing.

1:45:41And by doing that you also have a week where it's like it's not so final on your end either like you could get her back if you want to which makes it actually easier for you to end thing. Right. And for her it's like a little bit less of a you know like a immediate severing so she's going to go less crazy in that week. So you know I think that's a good strategy sometimes. but if it's just like inconsolable and she's just terrible or you just want to break up with it, then I just, you know, just don't string her along, you know, just tell her the truth and, you know, I'm going to move on and there's just no getting back together.

1:46:12Getting back to your current sort of lifestyle situation is kids on the horizon? Do you want to have kids? You know, it's not something I really think about. A lot of people ask me that. My brothers I've got three kids. Maybe I'll get there. Right now, I am deriving happiness from helping other people out. And so I'm focusing on that. And I know the kids is kind of like a part of that, but - That's the ultimate helping other people out, right? It's your own genetic lineage. A little bit, but I think you have to have the right girl. And, you know, that's the first step. You know, a lot of people decide they wanna have kids and it's like, okay, well, you gotta find it.

1:46:48Yeah, exactly. It's like, and that's a very important piece. Sometimes finding the right girl will make you want to have kids. So when I find the wrong girl, make you not want kids. I don't want to have more of these people on the planet. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting how many boss bitch CEOs then find a guy that they didn't think existed and turn into a very happy mum or how many dudes that were maniac business people in their 20s and their 30s find a woman that's the love of their life and go, even my priorities have changed. I realized that so many of my businesses were surrogate children.

1:47:25I think there's a lot more of the latter than the former. And I think the problem that a lot of these like boss bitch CEO girls are gonna find is that by the time they wanna have kids, it's like much higher chance of autism, all these other things. And they've also kind of like, you know, not cultivated a lot of things that would probably help them be a good mother. So I think this like detachment from traditional male, female roles is another one of the problems that we have too. And I think it's okay for a woman to work. and I think it's okay for him to be a mom, you know, or both. But I don't, I think both is tough.

1:47:52And I don't think that you can ever be a good mom if you have a full -time job either. So I would, you know, say if kids are a priority, then, you know, maybe focus on, you know, doing more like, of those sort of things, like, you know, being a housewife, you know, cooking, you know, doing those sort of things. If that's what you enjoy and you enjoy, you know, taking care of kids, that's a valuable role. And a successful guy would probably much rather have a woman and that would want to do that versus work part time and then get a nanny and maybe feed the kids after work when she's tired. You know, it's just like, I don't think that's healthy.

1:48:24What advice would you give to women who want to attract a guy that's worthy and that is gonna treat them well? And how can they also be more attracting to guys? The first thing is I would say be more honest with yourself of what you actually want. You know, I think a lot of women say that they want all these things Then there's a lot of those a lot of guys that fit that criteria that are just invisible to them And so you know like the nice guy I want a guy that's honest, you know You can go to Walmart and there's probably a lot of those guys and these women won't even see them Not to say that you should go like marry some guy from Walmart But I'm just saying there's a lot of like nice trustworthy guys that maybe aren't quite as attractive that these women won't give the time of day Or maybe they're less successful or whatever But that guy would die for you You know what I mean?

1:49:09So like if that's on your big priority list and like loyalty and honesty and all these things, then it's like, okay, maybe focus more on that. But I think what they tend to focus more on is status and, you know, looks and, you know, kind of like what's hot in the market, you know, whatever or what their friends would think would be good or what, you know, it's just, and so be true to yourself. Like if that's really what you want, then look for that. You know, give one of these guys a chance, you know? God knows if he's like, you know, one of these guys that don't have a lot of options, he's probably like never gonna cheat on you and treat you like gold and cut off his arm for you, you know?

1:49:45And it's like if you're a woman that values loyalty, then you know, maybe go looking for loyalty. You don't go looking for, you know, the basketball player, you know? I've been thinking about cultivating receptiveness for women. Like that's one, I think, pretty uncontroversial piece of advice. So in a post -MeToo world where any normal sane sort of respectful guy treats a no as a fuck no or anything that is shy of kind of a yes as this could be a bad situation waiting to happen in a headline. I think that women are still, they've got some conceptual inertia from the why men love bitches treat him like you don't like him sort of 90s into naughties dating advice that was in very widely distributed to women and they need to realize that the environment that they find themselves in is guys that a lot of the time are kind of scared of making a woman uncomfortable.

1:50:39First off, because if you're not a piece of shit who wants to make a woman feel uncomfortable, secondly, because you're terrified of being a me too thing, thirdly, because you've been massively under socialized, because you spend all of your time on social media, you've got this huge, big stack all on top. And I think treating men as a woman, like me fucking mansplaining, treating men as kind of particularly slow golden retrievers that need bigger signals than you might think. So in the aristocratic era of Great Britain, ladies would drop a handkerchief in front of the gentleman that they wanted.

1:51:12And it's an easy opportunity for the guy to, oh, miss, mom, mom, and hand that back over. And I think sort of what's the 2024 equivalent of that, you know, a lingering gaze that lasts a bit longer than you think. So that you go, I mean, that's she's either got something in her eye or she wants me to go over. You know what I mean? So cultivating receptiveness, I think, is like a cool, a cool idea. That would be one. I also think that like just kind of being more proactive as a woman because of the current dating, you know, like you said, you know, guys are scared, you know, like usually they get a lot of negative reception.

1:51:49A lot of guys don't know what to do so they have bad results. And so maybe as a woman just, don't go hitting on guys, but just go have a conversation with them. Maybe you're surprised at how much more receptive men are to a reasonably attractive woman coming up and trying to have a conversation with them. And it's like, maybe they wouldn't be that surprised at how receptive men would be to a reasonably attractive woman going up. But then why not do it? Because they don't really, because what's the downside? right? Like for a guy there's a lot of downside. You get rejected, you get embarrassed.

1:52:17It's like this. It's that but like for a woman, why not? Just go have a conversation. Right. It's definitely going to be higher. Did you see yesterday that French athlete, Elise Fino, who proposed to her husband after winning a gold? Did. Did. That caused a big sort of shit storm on Twitter with women saying, I would never do this guy saying you've basically just been and cucked in front of the entire world, other people saying, well, this is super romantic, you know, she's just achieved her dream in terms of career. Now she's gonna achieve her dream in terms of family. What did you make of that in the subsequent response?

1:52:55It's interesting, you know. My first reaction was kind of like, what the fuck? But then, I mean, look, if she's more successful than him, and she's the breadwinner, I mean, look, at the end of the day, I'm not a big proponent of marriage because I think it makes your relationship more transactional and more financially based Because basically what you're doing if you're a rich guy and you get married you're putting a bounty on the relationship It's like okay, she wants to get a divorce like now she gets a hundred million dollars you putting a reward on that And so for her maybe if she's the breadwinner and maybe she has more money than she's making more of a sacrifice by getting married And she's putting more of her finances on the line You know like maybe this guy's a backup dancer or something in our mechanic at Audemars you know, and she's making two, three hundred grand a year.

1:53:43Then in that scenario, I actually think it's, you know, it's okay, right? And it's surprising come from me because I'm a very like traditional conservative guy. But I mean, I don't know what if she was worth a hundred million dollars, not that she was. I'm just saying like in a relationship, like if a woman was worth a hundred million dollars, then maybe she should propose because she's the one giving up, you know, the most. I mean, I don't think she could take her son name. Well, I don't know about that, but like, I think who has the most money definitely makes a big difference. I mean, because that's really at the end of the day, you're getting the government involved in your relationship and you're bringing the finances into it, right?

1:54:20Like if you want to get a divorce, and then it's messy, you're going to have lawyers are going to be in court and you're going to be fighting over money. That's how it ends. There's certainly going to be more conversations around this. And I wonder how female and feminist culture is going to deal with marriages where women on average out earn the male counterpart. Women between ages of 21 and 29 earn on average 1111 pounds more than men do. So, you know, the gender pay gap is largely a motherhood tax. It's when women hit motherhood and then they have to take maternity leave, they take time away, they have different priorities, etc., etc., uh, two women for every one man completing a four -year US college degree by 2030.

1:55:09The gap that we had between men going to college and women going to college 50 years ago when title nine was brought in to encourage women going to college has now been reversed and broken through in the other direction. So the gap is now bigger in favor of women going to university than it was for men when they implemented Title IX, which was this big world -changing idea so that we could get more women into college. And downstream from that, the people that go to college get paid more, on average, I know that college isn't everything blah, blah, blah, you can make as much money as a sparky or as a plumber or as an electric, whatever.

1:55:45But you're going to end up with way more women being the breadwinners in households. So I think it's going to be an interesting role reversal when And you go, okay, what's happening with marriage now? Is it making an honest woman of someone when the woman outends the man? And how does sort of a lot of the modern talking points that women have been given? How does that play together? You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, it's a strange thing that I never thought that I would be discussing. To me, I think this is probably the reason why our birth rate is declining, you know? Yeah, like I said, I'm more conservative.

1:56:24I think that the men traditionally should be out, you know, making the money and doing that. I mean, if you don't wanna have kids, I guess both people can work. And if you do. What a beautiful future that is for everybody just feeding the capitalist machine. I mean, that's kind of the thing, right? As where does that end? So, I don't know. I thought it was okay, you know, that the men went out and worked and the women, you know, had kids and raised families. I mean, I thought that worked pretty good. It worked for thousands of years, but apparently that's, you know, not what people want to do now.

1:56:59And so I don't know. You know, like I said, I'm not a big proponent of marriage just because I think it's unnecessarily put strain on the relationship and puts pressure on the relationship and makes it more about money than it should be. But I guess to your point, if the woman is making more money, then maybe she's the one that should be proposing. Wow. Who knew Downbills Arne says women should propose more. Where should people go? You got all of this new stuff happening. What's launching? What's sort of coming up from you? Protocol. I have a supplement line coming out that is no artificial ingredients.

1:57:36So like no artificial sweetener is nothing. And that was one of the big issues that I had when I would take supplements before. And they had so much artificial sweetener that was kind of like mess with my stomach. And so, yeah, came out with a full supplement line that has no artificial sweetener is a no bullshit in there and that's, uh, it should be done, I think, on the 20th. So probably around about the time this comes out should be available, protocol .com. And then, um, sigma society is the guy thing to help them out, give them like the roadmap and, um, and help them with just the mistakes that they're making and the bad roadmap.

1:58:10I mean, like I said, I think they have a roadmap that has Canada in the south and they're, you know, going south and they're trying happen so I'm gonna give him a correct map. Hell yeah, I appreciate you man, thank you for the day.