#875 - Nedd Brockman - Pushing The Boundaries Of Mental Toughness

25:47I think I lost like, I just lost who I was in it because I am that happy jovial person and I'm usually bringing everyone up and when I'm up everyone's up and especially in the support team and I think I found that like I was putting a lot more pressure on the crew than I needed to because of how much pain I was in so that I was angry that like it wasn't as fun for everyone else involved where like I feel the Ozzarun was much more like that. Yeah. And then just, I think I was also extremely proud to have finished it, but I think that was masked a bit more by the, that it was just so fucking hard.

26:38Yeah. It was just so violently hard. Talk to me about physical pains, challenges, such going through it. Yeah. I had, so I had 10 or so of itus in both shins, which is like fluid around the tendon sheath, anterior TBR muscle. So essentially I thought that before, right? Yeah, I had it in the Osran probably like 20 days in. I had it day three on my right leg and had to have a a dike disband on that one for the rest of the run. What? A dike disband. So for people with drop foot when they like walking to the bar so they can't pull their sheen up essentially, their foot up. It's just a device that goes around and the ankle, and then a rubber band goes through your laces.

27:20And so when you lift your hip up, your foot comes up. All right. And then you, yeah. And so essentially, we found that that worked on the, it takes the pressure off, how it's actually, exactly when you press off footwise, your calf explodes and then it's down. And that rubber band essentially pulls your foot up, pulls your foot up. And I felt that like that worked on the Ozzrun, it's something if it does go to crap, I can utilize this as a plan to keep moving. me. We packed another one because we thought maybe my shittling go on the left side and it did on day day eight on nine. So I'm running with like two big dick dispans, rubber bands, people like what's going on on these legs.

27:56I just have weak shins apparently. And again, that's another thing that is over time you get strong machines, you do these things. And they made right knee, which I'm still dealing with a little bit. Essentially I've lost hip mobility and so my gate was off all of, you know, two centimeters. So when I'd land, my knee would land in every step. So about 400 K to go, I had that pain. So I had to walk 200 meters, run 200 meters because the end of the running of 200 meters, the pain was just so immense that I had to like walk to ease it. So for the next 400 K, it was a walker and walker and yeah it was quite funny when people came to run with me I'm like I'm just going to explain this scenario like easy.

28:40He's rather a sun yeah. Fluent from Auckland the second last night. He's like ready to run with me fully. Can I'm like just say no mate. We're walking and running every tournament. He's like yep all good mate no worries. But yeah that I've had a like injection in that now just to kind of ease it. But it's all nothing structural which is good. Bloods were all fine, apart from like a bit of a gluten response, just because of the high amount of carbs you're eating and the inflammation in the body. Those markers were a bit higher, but iron was good, everything was good. I was pretty cortisol fine, liver, bit higher from pain meds.

29:20What do you think? That's really interesting, because I would have expected And home only something to have been going on if you're lying in a bed and you're resting heart rate at 110 and you're only getting half an hour or an hour's sleep and you've got to do all of this work. I think a lot of the time because the only thing that we have access to are our thoughts, right? So we know what the inner world is for us. I can't detect what my home and the East Virginia and the Progesterone levels are. But if your bloods have come back in their normal, relatively normal, what that shows is the power of the framing that you've got inside of you because it's not something systemic that's going on or at least not something that could be measured.

30:08Free radicals, blah, blah, blah, blah, in the blood. I'm sure that there'll be areas that weren't fully tested, but it just really shows what power you have mentally to be able to make a relatively okay performing physiology totally fucked. Yeah yeah yeah it's quite it's quite an interesting thing isn't it? I was I was a bit perplexed. Well it took them seven days later so I reckon in that period there probably would have been a bit but like I kind of guess you don't want to take them right then and then it's you know it's gonna be. It's another fucking another source of stress for you as well.

30:44By the way, get in. Let's pin you, blah, blah. Of course. I would be in trade to take them throughout and see what they can do. I think they can do a little. Yeah, for lactatons. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is always interesting, but again, I just like it for the, just because I said I was going to do it. There's no like, I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. It's like one of those ones where it's like, this is something I want to attack. Life is, you don't know what's coming tomorrow. So let's set this thing up. Let's do it. Let's get it done. What does the ultra running community think of you?

31:19That's a good question. I Want to dance I'm not gonna dance around this because it's like something that's Again being 25 something I never thought I would have dealt with as much There's purists in everything and I know for a fact that people in boxing and swimming in all those things that take on these events without the, I guess, resume of what is supposedly supposed to do in order to attack 1 ,000 miles. You're saying that you're the Jake Paul of endurance racing? Yeah, perfect. I can go on. I put that on me. He's got a mullet too. Yeah. I was shocked when I first copped a bit of flack for a few things, but I'm always is like even your talk last night talking about, like anyone who's spreading negativity, it is funny when you've never copped it that you think they are, they say, oh my God, they must be right because, you know, I'm this lack of this person, I'm not capable, but that person, he's got it, he knows, yeah, that person's assessment of me is bang on.

32:36Like all your close people around you you tell your love you, no, they can't be right. No, you'll find what you did, no, not a chance. Who know you so well, but then the, the Nuffy that said, oh, how dare you pause your watch for this amount of time, because it doesn't reflect exactly what it is. Oh, yeah, no, he knows me in and out. And it's interesting. I think we're just so naturally drawn to make sure, I think innately that's asked to want people to love us and want people to approve us and welcome us with open arms, but. So you find the people that don't and work out a way to try and do the thing that will make them love you?

33:12Yeah, I when I first went through that I was like I'm like I'm going oh fuck well how do I'm you just lose so much of yourself by doing that like you become the most broad, have no backbone stand for nothing if you're trying to be general and please everyone. So it's good that you have people that But don't like you. But if you're yourself and you have those people that violently love you and can't support you enough, like as long as you can see it for that and exactly as you said, these people are so insecure about themselves and so worried about what people think of them too that they prefer to spit hate and anger.

33:51In saying that, in the running world, I would say majority of people accept me and appreciate that what I'm doing is probably a bit dumb and not the road to take. But it's also one that I would not change for the world. I would do the Osirone again 10 times over at 22 years old to continue to... I just want people to, I've said it for like the last probably three years, any candidate I've done, any speaking to anyone, I want people to live, like live, just make the most of it, suck waiting, suck getting on your phone, stop just go and do the thing you've always wanted to do. Give, so give without wanting anything in return.

34:35I think there's a lot of that where it's like people want something from an exchange or want something from doing something. I feel like if you can just give and give your time or energy or a smile or money to someone Also, whatever it is, that is a very rewarding existence. And then to get uncomfortable, I love the fact that you can intentionally put yourself in really hard scenarios and you'll find out things about yourself that you'll never have learned unless you did those things, if you did the hard things. And so yeah, live, give, get uncomfortable. That's all I want. That's all my messages.

35:10And if I can get people to hear that through what I do, regardless of that being running, swimming, kayaking, rock climbing, whatever I decide to do next. And I'm sure I'll keep ruffling feathers with the purists of the sport who can't stand the responses, paying me what they're paying me or can't stand that I'm getting to speak at these events where like, but it should be this guy because he can run this really fast marathon time. It's like, I appreciate that and those people are incredible. Those I could never match it with the elites of the elites in the marathon world or the ultra marathon world.

35:42It might take me years to get there. but I hope that I have a message that people can go, yeah, that's cool. I like that. I appreciate that for what he is. And yeah, I don't want to get that mixed up with me being, I've never gone, I'm just attacking this thing because it's there and I feel like I'm capable of doing it. And off the run I did, it definitely shows that I am capable. I just have to do the years and years and years. But by the time I'm able to do it, I'll probably want to do something else. Yeah. Do you know Will Gooch? I do. He's a good friend. Yeah, so Will, I'm not well for yours.

36:18You know, he did his thing across America. He did an interesting UK one before it was the counties, different counties, different in the three -pakes or four or five -pakes. No, no. So this was maybe even before that where he ran, I think it's a marathon in each county in the UK. Maybe every day it was like the 60, 55 or something like that. No, no, 40, 30. 48 30 that was it you're in 48 marathons 30 days. That was it. Yeah. Yeah. I do. And then he did the thing Very running across America and not too dissimilar. He's probably maybe like 30 only a few years old And do something like that for the people that don't know him fucking good looking kid Heart handsome big dick Anyway, I've insane the day.

36:59Yeah, like it's you're not British And he doesn't I was talking to Richard all about this and he said What did he refer to as he said that the endurance races are a bit of a granola crowd They're sort of a bit crusty and you've got will his trendy and he wears flares Yeah, exactly you know like for skincare routine. Yeah, and um he ends up Doing really well on a number of like pretty fucking extreme events, but it ruffles some feathers People just want to hide it and it's like it's just such a odd way to look at the world and it's sad. And I think if you can look it from that pity point of you, it's like, that's actually sad that you can't go, you know what, this bike's been running, he's, he's a x rugby player, he's hot as shit, he's getting deals from a fricking, you know, whatever it may be.

37:50And they can't just go, you know what, good on you. You ran across America in 55 days. They're fucking incredible. Like give the man his flowers. Like let's not hate on people for what's the response being to rust cook? I think relatively positive and I'm sure he's copped it and as do you think his granola rebird has helped him with that? He's so likeable. He's just such a, you can't not like the guy. There's something wrong with you if you can't not like him. You have to like him. He's too just bubbly and funny and like you don't know what's going to come out and it's I remember this is the guy again for the people that didn't know that he ran the length of Africa first person ever, I think.

38:32Yeah, so the full length, so from bottom south, every top of Tunisia, wherever the fuck it is. And I remember I was watching him on his Instagram stories halfway through it. And I think he managed to get some sort of food poisoning. Yeah. And he was running down the road with shit pouring out of his shorts, throwing up, and videoing himself, just saying that they're trying to stop me. Yeah. They're trying to stop me. but I'm just too fucking fierce. I'm just still here, chewing time, chewing time, guzzin' apples. And I don't know, it's not, I really wish that that was the way that I'm built in the situations.

39:12And maybe if I dedicated myself to it, there's something that I could activate. Fuck me, I love seeing someone that is. Like seeing somebody that is dealing with suffering with a smile. And I don't know, is noble and like cool. It is. And that's why so many people love rice. like they just want to just give me more rust like when he was posted you know day free hundred of hundreds you got his goggles on through the Sahara like that is that's just you know what that is that's authenticity that's him being him and I think so many people want to be themselves but don't know how and you've got this guy who's just so unapologetically himself and that is that's attractive and draws you in.

39:55And I feel like if we can all do that, that's where you don't have these people that are sad and miserable about their lives. But that's just the way the world is. You're never going to change them. They've got to change themselves. I wonder if that's part of the reason that you were maybe a bit angry when you finished the race as well, that you have this opportunity to, like, not only be you for your own experience, but also, like, this is what I want to put out, But like the whole one of the big reasons of doing this is to set the example. This is how you can deal with suffering with a smile.

40:27This is how you can go through some adversity and be jovial and add levity and maybe that was as much of a missed opportunity as not completing the race would have been. Not just doing the thing but how you do the thing. Yeah. I guess there's a part of that. But I still feel it. it grabbed a lot of people and went, oh Jesus, we've got this, how is he still going? How is, we've been drawing, on live Tiktok 3 AM going, how he's still moving, he's still moving. Like, I know it got, it definitely got through the message I wanted, but I think yeah, potentially crossing and went, yeah, maybe if I got the record, it still wouldn't have been as important as the what happened anyway.

41:15If I did, I still don't believe I would be going, I got this, like I don't think that would be the message. I hope it wouldn't be that if, because as you said at the start, it's like Ross isn't better or worse than anyone because he's done something. He's a human being that's living his life the way he wants to live it. And that's what's quite. He applied himself in a very specific way. Yeah, and it's just cool and people. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Function. I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body.

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42:23Function has a 300 ,000 person waiting list but every Monday they open a few spots for modern wisdom listeners and you can get your expert blood work analysis and bypass that 300 ,000 person wait list by heading to the link in the description below or going to functionhealth .com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth .com slash modern wisdom. You were saying before this is something I've been thinking about an awful lot, especially you know I'm here in Australia I've been on tour. The first night I've done three shows very close succession and each one was the smallest show of this tour and also the biggest show I'd ever done each time.

43:00So it was like a thousand people, then 1700 people, than two and a bit thousand people, to each one had escalated up.

43:10And especially at the first show, there was a lot of gripping from me to make sure that I didn't mess up and it went great. All of the shows went really perfect. I couldn't have asked for them to have gone any better. How much prep of you done for those? Sorry, obviously. No, no, no. What, like, how long was your preparation for a show of that? like because you're so refined and so clear with what you were. Put two hours. Yeah. Yeah, but incredible, except for the Arthur Shackleton. Yeah, I mean, as Arthur Shackleton, the problem is Ernest Shackleton is the guy that did a, went across Antarctica, but Alfred Lansing is the guy that wrote the book, his urine's.

43:52And I managed to split the difference between us, Shackleton and fucking anyway. So, no, no, no. Quite a lot of prep. You know, I ran half of the show last year, maybe 20 times. I did work in progress shows this year in Austin. So I did the in front of 40 people, like, comedian would do working different bits and what a story do I want to keep in and which story do I want to get rid of all this stuff. Exactly. Yeah. What did people like? What didn't they? Which jokes landed well, which didn't and refined it and refined it and refined it and then went through this run. But I realized, especially after the first one that I was gripping very tightly to the experience, very not fearful, but very on edge.

44:34You know, I just wanted to make sure it was very precise and sort of laser focused on the thing. But it's very difficult, I think, to kind of be taking in what's happening whilst focusing on the thing that you're doing. Right? It's very difficult to hold those two positions at once in your mind, like with maybe your most recent race, that you're so laser focused and obsessed on what is this particular thing? You know, the type of race that you're doing is so unverried, there's no novelty. It's very constricted and constrained, right? So running in a lot, you might as well have fucking ran it on the treadmill.

45:08And I realized, Chris Bumstead talked to me about it's not just about winning, it's about how you win and the story that you tell yourself and the experience that you go through. So not just winning and being a gracious victor or losing and being a gracious loser or whatever. It's like, and how did you feel when you did this thing? Because when you look back, yeah, sure, you can say, I tick the box. I did the tour. I completed the race. I did the whatever. But really, what was the reason for doing the thing? What is for the experience? Yeah, it was for the way that you felt the energy, the vibe, right?

45:44Intensity. Yeah. All of that. Yes. So, um, one of my friends before I did the show in Melbourne, was like, how do you feel them tonight? I'm a bit nervous. I've got some propanolol if you want some. Beater blockers. And I thought, I could use those. By really one, like I've got myself here, like the entire reward is to feel the terror of hearing a few thousand people outside murmuring, murmuring, murmuring, and then the music comes on and you have to walk out. So yeah, I just think it's really interesting hearing you talk about this experience as one where you maybe did this incredible achievement and raised all of this money and stuff, but internally the experience maybe that you had left something to be desired from your presence, from the way that you took it in, from all the rest of it.

46:33And I think that, you know, that's another frontier to try and conquer too. Yeah. And to talk about that and to say, hey, look, it's not necessarily just about but winning or losing or completing it or not completing it, it's also about how you do it, outwardly and dimly as well. I think as well, I took on this, I love that whole, what I just talked about. The, I reckon I took on this probably because I felt, I almost had to, not for anything, but like I've told myself I'm doing this every two years. And then I did it, or I'd set up that I was gonna do it. And so when I'm in it, I'm like, why am I doing this?

47:18Even though I know there's intention behind it to do good and get people to move and for myself to experience what I experience, but like in those moments of being in it, you'd be able to have that almost, you talk about last night being, just like B. And to sit in it and be like, how on earth after all I've been through or whatever I've done, however I've got to this point where I'm running around a track where it's live streamed, where people are fundraising, where people are, like I find that a really cool thing in itself, is that you've gotten yourself to a point in this life where you've chosen this road, this, this, this, and this.

47:55You're here, and there was like a few moments there, where Tom, who met last night, he's next to me and I'm like, why are we, like what is happening? Like, what on earth have I done in my life to get me to a point where I'm going, I'm fucking doing this thing regardless of what happens. And that in itself by finishing that and having those questions like why we're here? Why we're doing this? Still finishing that and still having those, you know, being angry like again, as you said, it's like maybe there's something in that next time is like well, the next thing I do, whatever it may be, it's like you've got an ability to then make the people around you enjoy it and you try and break it down so that each five hours you have a moment of reflection and go, well you know what, this is actually, but you never ever get to that by not experiencing this really shit all the time.

48:48Exactly, this is how bad it could have gone. Yeah. And this is how good I want it to be. Of course. And like, you know, if I did that, if I broke the record and I did it in 10 days and it was a seamless event, I did 16 hours of running, I got 160 done 860 hours, got 8 or 7 hours sleep, beautiful meal, woke up every day and went again. It just wouldn't be what it is now, right? Like it just wouldn't be the, I guess, message of like, how to not to give in. And I think that's what I hope I can continue to show is that like, it's not about necessarily, you know, being I'm better or worse, it's about going, and commit and see the damn thing through because life on the other side of that, I think is with a perspective of something really cool.

49:36Well, it's not just within events you'll have ups and downs. I'm sure even on the Australia run, even on the marathon after work, competition. Even within those you've got good days, bad days, but I think if you broaden the time horizon, we've talked about this last night as well, So, okay, well, maybe across events, there's going to be some that are better and some that are worse and some of the worse days within events will make the better days feel better and some of the worse events across events will make the better events feel better. But what can I take from this? Because, fuck knows what the next reason is that you need to galvanize yourself and steal yourself against some sort of a challenge.

50:16Maybe it's something in your personal life. Maybe it's something that happens professionally. Maybe it's some fucking press story that comes out. Maybe it's the next physical event that you do or one down the line and you need to draw on that and without that without the bad without it going Bad or worse. Maybe then would have been ideal The next one actually you can't survive yeah, and it's that odd thing where Ironic tragedy that life has to be lived forward, but only makes sense in reverse Yeah, of course and you don't know the lessons from exactly what you're doing until you've done the next size It's why you know you you have heard that story about the Farmers son who gets a horse finds a horse that runs away.

50:57It comes back. It breaks his leg Yeah, the soldiers arrive and then they say how how unfortunate the horses run away How fortunate to come back with a herd of them how unfortunate it's broken your sons leg how fortunate It means he doesn't get conscripted into the army. Yeah, it's like Well, what's the way you're perceiving exactly and over a broad enough time horizon. I think people generally get what they deserve. You don't need karma or spiritual energy to deliver justice to people. They just need to keep repeating their patterns and habits over and over until reality just gives them what they deserve.

51:33I think that's kind of... That's why ultimately I have so much faith that good people end up out on top. Completely agree. What's your goal with not necessarily the podcast, but more broadly, when you started, I know it's definitely evolved and what you're assuming from when you started to now and what you hope with it all. What is the hope? Where does it not end, but where does it go for you with the... Because I like, I'm in this... I wouldn't say, it's definitely not lonely chapter, but it's like one of those... You've kind of got an open dormo. You know, what's where do we take this? Because I have an ability to potentially inspire a heap of people or is it to double down on something else?

52:21Is it business? Is it whatever? Like, how do you just go with it? Or do you have an intention behind where you want to go? Or what's the, what's the great question? You know, very few bits of sympathy are given to people who have lots of options. Yep. because most people have fewer options than they want. And when somebody says, there's lots of different directions that I could go down. They go, oh, what a... What did also made them through a lot of work? Of course, of course, but still... Yeah, I know you said. ...you said it last night. Problems of abundance are always going to be given less sympathy than ones of scarcity, of course.

52:55Right? So in some ways, you think, well, what a luxurious position to be in. How great that you've got that. But then on the flip side, you have all of this optionality, which means that you, the pressure is on you to go down. Is it more virtuous for me to spend all of my time fundraising for homeless people? Is homelessness even the best charity that I should be doing this for? I could be raising it for a more worthy cause. Maybe I should be swimming instead of running it. Maybe I should be doing whatever. So in my experience, I've always been bad at long term planning and I kind of came out of the productivity bro world at least initially.

53:31So in that world, you know, you have a, you write your epitaph and you've got what's on your headstone and what's written in your obituary, then you break that down into, you know, ten year, like chunks, periods into three year sets into one year goals into 90 day sprints into daily actions. and you have this perfectly coordinated, this is how I'm gonna get there. I always struggled with that naturally, and then laid on top. Any sufficiently quickly growing situation means that optionality breaks out in ways that you couldn't have ever imagined. So for you, five years ago, you didn't even know that things that you could be doing were things that you could say yes to.

54:19That didn't exist. No, no, no, no. Right? So in my experience, it's very difficult to have rigid long -term plans, which is why principles and rules are much easier. So for me, I just try and follow my curiosity. I want to keep on learning about stuff I think is important. I want to follow my instincts. I like how much you are clearly inquisitive of so many people. It's a really cool trait. Thank you. Yeah, it's honestly, I... Everybody is idiosyncratic and varied, and they're into distance running and fucking 80s jazz. I hate distance running by the way. War, warhammer 40k and blah, blah, blah.

54:57You know, they're into like, they've got all of these different things that they've got going on. And I kind of get the sense that people like interested curious people like life as a intellectual buffet. Right, and sometimes they wanna hear Mark Norman shit talking, doing gay jokes. Sometimes they wanna hear about this really intense War story, sometimes the only hero about the psychology female serial killers, whatever blah blah blah. And the job that I have is just to keep satisfying my own curiosity. And if I keep doing that, I think downstream from that, everything will go well. Yeah, that's the only guiding principle at the moment is just trying to do stuff that I think is interesting.

55:35You try to, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting to me. And I think next year I'm going to start doing some stuff on bullying interventions. So I happen to have a couple of friends, a Tracy Vinecore who's ahead of the Canadian anti -bullying association and Tony Volk as well who's another evidence -based bullying intervention guy. And I really want to see, I don't know of anybody that's talking about bullying. Very much like kids or is it? So specifically for kids because most bullying occurs in school. The reason that most bullying occurs in school is that for bullying to happen, you need social networks to ossify for a while and in the workplace, especially with remote work.

56:17Now, people come and go from jobs so much, they don't spend that much time in the office around the same people, but in class, you see the same people every single day for five years, often 11 years, right? If you follow them through like one big school or whatever. So that's how you get locked into these hierarchies and the pecking orders and occur. So it's easy to do the intervention there, but really interesting thing that no one is talking about and there helping ex -bullied adults to overcome that bullying. We heard about it last night in some of the Q &As that some of the people have got chips on their shoulder about people that didn't believe in them when there were kids or people that were mean to them or whatever in school and trying to liberate adults from that.

57:01It's very shameful to be in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s and still realize that you're driven by this thing, this devil on your shoulder, this kid that probably, Maybe it doesn't even remember doing it. And for you, it's still something that fucking crushes you. Were you bullied? Yeah, badly. Like school. Yeah, for long. Like, whole schooling? I think when you're in primary school, when you're super young, kids are just, like, they're just blobs, do you know what I mean? So they're not really doing bullying. But then when we got into secondary school, it was never extreme physical violence. That's up.

57:35But it was that this sort of very mundane social exclusion that in some ways I think sticks with you for longer because it tells you a story about your position in the world socially about how you get the love of other people about how safe you should feel around other people as well. Yeah, can you trust other people? Do you need to offer them something in order for them to accept you or want you or or be friends with you? Do you have a Backup like do you have a reinforcement? ever do you feel like your like do you feel like Some I know kids should never be bullied, but for you potentially it may have aided in your pursuit now, I'm assuming?

58:26Absolutely, yeah. So is there an argument not saying bully and this is great, but like hard, laugh and hard being like onto that? I don't know, there's something in it because I know so many of it, I'm myself included. There was definitely bullying at school where you feel like ostracized or not a part of something or laughed at because of a certain thing. It's like that it 100 % sticks with you, but I also feel that like I was never I was never badly But it was also enough where you're like well Maybe this will help me in some I do I don't disagree and this is one of the ruthless things About anything difficult that you go through again.

59:05What I spoke about last night, right? Like the all of your greatest growth is germinated from your lowest points Mm -hmm, and that you can't tell someone that in the memory that you're like hey You're gonna really appreciate this in ten years time this is going to be the thing that's going to propel each one actually to do whatever to you know to be the strongest person that stands up It your father's funeral. You're like that's not the sucks. Yeah exactly because in the moment people don't feel good about it So you know, yeah, this is one of the most ruthless things I think about difficult life experiences which is that lots of the Things that you must have shamed of the dark sides of your personality your insecurities your fears are just the other edge of the strengths that you love most in yourself.

59:53So for me, solitude, hard work, my ability to keep going and not need support of other people, all of that sort of resilience and agency and intentionality is definitely born out of the fact that I needed to, I didn't have anybody else to rely on. So in some weird way, and I think this is, to be honest, how most of the chips or maybe even all of the chips from my shoulder, at least the conscious I'm sure the subconscious ones are still fucking running around. Yeah. But the unconscious chips on my shoulder, I realized, well, if the things I'm proud of are the light side of the dark stuff and the dark stuff wouldn't have come about how they've not gone through the difficult stuff, that means I need to be grateful that I went through those things which maybe means in a weird roundabout way, I actually need to be grateful for the people that did it to me or for the situations that I was in because if I take so much pride and value in those.

1:00:48But the only other element that I'd add in here, I was at a problem with people who said, it was meant to be this sort of retrospective storytelling of, and the reason I don't like it is let's say that you're in a car accident and you break a leg and in the hospital bed, despite the fact that you're on a ton of morphine and you're supposed to be miserable in life sucks and loads of bad stuff's going on, you meet your future partner and the nurse that's caring for you or something like that. And you go, see, it was meant to be. I was meant to break my leg. And I'm like, okay, that's one story. Another story is you were in a fucking shit situation and you alchemized it into something amazing.

1:01:29Like I think when we retrospectively say it was meant to be, it removed the agency that we had from that situation, which is exactly where we should take all of the lessons and all of the pr... What's the lesson that you take from it was meant to be? Just doing things, keep doing things, it's really keeps me going to be meant to be. It's like, no, fuck off. No, it's like, you can find this out by doing it. Exactly, you went through something hard. Yeah, and you made something good out of it. Congratulations. That's, this is, I've got a whole body goose. This is my whole desire behind this uncomfortable chance thing I said at the start is like, I don't, like we don't need to be bullied to feel something hard to then go, oh, I'll overcome that.

1:02:06You can bully ourselves. Yeah, we can, I mean that in the purest way, We should be throwing ourselves in these harder things in order to learn those lessons. And if you do that, it's gonna be, you're gonna learn these things about yourself without being told your haircuts shit. Yeah, no, I like that. Yeah, that's a big while. You might have heard me say that I took me to a testosterone level from 495 to 2006 last year. And one of the supplements I used throughout that was Tonkart Ali. I first heard Dr. Andrew Human talk about the really impressive effects that tons of research was showing, which sounds great until you realize that most supplements don't actually contain what they're advertising.

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1:03:18Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get a 20 % discount of all their products. I'm going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentus .com slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom. A checkout. That's L -I -V -E -M -O -M -E -N -T -O -U -S. dot com slash modern wisdom. And modern wisdom. them. A checkout. Yeah, I really want to just linger on that. How you're doing the thing, not just doing the thing. That you have the opportunity to get the promotion, get the new car, have the marriage, do the whatever. And in retrospect, sure, you will be able to maybe have the photos and all the rest of it.

1:03:58But the only person that could have experienced whatever it is that you're going through, the only person that could have been on that track that was going to do all of those laps and all of those miles was you. Then a person who was going to run across Australia, was going to swim around the UK, was going to run across America or the fucking length of Africa. You go, anybody can watch the videos. Even you can watch the videos of you, but only you get to experience what it's like to do that. And it's this odd blend between, do you want to be the absolute best in the world at a thing, which I do think can cause you to need?

1:04:29If you want to be the best, all sacrifices are on the table. Everything. Fucking hell. You can't be life. No, no, no. Enjoyment of the event. Relationships. Relationships. Yeah, exactly. Family, bank account, reputation, everything. This one thing. But if you are doing something for not being the fastest in the world, if it's not a sports competition or it's not a zero -sum game where there's only one winner and you want to just be that one winner, I feel like there's a little bit of a problem. little bit of tolerance, just a bit of give at the top. And it's like, where can I sneak in something there?

1:05:05Can I sacrifice 0 .5 % performance to gain 50 % presence? And that's what I think is fucking interesting about all of this stuff that you guys are doing, whether it's Russ, whether it's Russ, whether it's yourself, whether it's well. It's very well put. I was almost, I was like, when you said come on the pod, I was excited initially, and then I went, oh, I don't know if I'm Like I had this it wasn't that I wasn't Ready or worthy it was that I was like Am I ready to talk about What I feel I think because of the only I know what I felt in that thing So to sit and talk with you who you I would be one of the best people to try and get it out like get it out of me but And that is like, again, you can only associate with something you've ever done.

1:05:57And so then I'm like, do I really want to do this? Because I want to be able to get to a point where I can explain it to people in the best way possible. So that to me is like, it's a lot of writing. That's a lot of speaking to people. It's a lot of like hearing how same with a keynote or speaking to you is like, well, that didn't work well. So I'm going to say it this way. And so I was a bit like nervous about the fact that I might come off as like it might go straight over people's heads But I'm like it's a really cool digital diary of my Where were you at that time? Yeah, and so in five years time I might laugh about some of the things I've said because I'm what the fuck was that I'm sure you're your first buddy Podcast you don't watch on earth was I saying but I think that's what's really freaking cool about this is like if I do look back at it And I do look and go So well, that's what I was thinking at the time and that's what I felt and that's what I was.

1:06:48I knew it. Yeah, it was exactly right. There's nothing, I'm not hiding anything here. I'm not trying to say I'm something else. It's like it is just what I am and I think that's a really cool. Isn't it strange that authenticity is something you need to practice? Like you need to work at being authentic. There's so many. Yeah, that it, yes, in this, yes, 100%. Like how can you, yeah. Why is it easier to not be you than it is to be you to file in line and just get our world to what they do exactly? Yeah, but you know So much of what we do our social lives especially people that don't have to have long conversations Like I don't know I would love to know what the longest average conversation a person who doesn't need to record it and put it on the internet Has apart from outside of work maybe like stolen 20 minutes here and there of the dinner with the the kids or the partner and like little bits here and there.

1:07:41Just the opportunity to ask yourself questions. I had this like prescription. My equivalent of Ned's uncomfortable challenge was record of fake podcasts with a friend once a week. So you put a phone on record it, put it on the record and I'll pop it in the middle. So a lot of people want to become better communicators, want to really understand themselves. If you're a fan of a podcast, you probably like having interesting conversations anyway, but you don't need to go and fucking publish one. Everyone's got the time or the inclination to go do it. I was like, if you record it, then you're forced to be rigorous in the way that you think.

1:08:11You'd be precise with these things. But authenticity, oddly enough, is something that has to be discovered because you've got to dig away all of the fucking layers of social expectation, and bullshit, and decorum, and politeness, and bullying, and past fucking traumas, and patterns, and tiredness, and caffeine, and all of that. You've got to get rid of all of that, to be like, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, and then finally you hit something, you hit something solid. You're like, oh fuck, that feels like me. That feels really true. And it's weird, because it's like, how is it easier to not be truthful or authentic or honest than it is to do the other thing?

1:08:45Well, because of all of the social expectations. It's not as jarring. It's not as like, oh, why is he posting about this thing? It's actually jarring. Yeah, yeah. I think that's the other thing with the running thing is like, I don't, running is just the tool I use. It's not like, and so when I am doing this thing and being myself, I think that's why it's so jarring for some people, because they're like, this is not a thing meant to be running around a track for a thousand miles. You meant to be doing it like this is how they've always done it. And it's like, well, it's not really me. And to find, I think, exactly right, you have to remove everything and find out, like, I don't want to be a sparky.

1:09:15This is not fuck me. Like, I want to do this. I want to find this. And that's why I think it will change over time. It's like, this will come. I will be really excited. And that's what I will start pushing. Like, you mentioned the PTSD. Mm -hmm. Talk me through. We've got up to the end of the race now. Yep. But finishing, at least punching the fucking thing was a little bit angry, recovery, next few days, psychologically, physically, all the rest of the stuff. What was it like? I drove home from the track, so I'd been at the whole 26 hours because my old man is farmer like through and through.

1:09:51He's like, we live six hours from here, the family farm, and he has no idea about directions around the city. and I'm like, willing in my wheelchair, up to my, up to my youth, hop in, he starts going to the drive set, my nanana, I hop in, I just knew he'd ask me for it freaking directions the whole way home. So I was like, I'm driving, turn AC, DC, on and drove home. I got, no, no, no, no, no, back to Indocinit, from where I did the track run, was like 30 minute drive into the east of Sydney, where we are. And yeah, but when I got home, I was like, I was just in shock. I sat for about two hours after the run in the room that we got ready for each day.

1:10:31I'm just like staring at, do you've never been awake like 28 hours? 28 hours, yeah. From 4 a .m. it was now like, yeah, 8 a .m. the next morning. I'm sitting there just like, it was massive blister on my car from all the tape because my leg was essentially strapped up to be like a crutch because I was just like, stumbling leg couldn't move it. And then my knee was caulked, everything, I'm just sitting there like, first breath I took over the whole tour and after days of like, sigh of relief, the sigh of like, it wasn't even, it was no post run in dolphins, it was no like, it was just pure and utter relief that it was over.

1:11:08And then I could take a moment to go, oh my god, what just happened guys. So then went home, laid on the couch, and I just was in this like, tweaking out stage for like 12 hours, I reckon, Just like in and out, in and out. And they'll be food in front of me and I go to sleep. And I'm like, oh, Lane 8. Um. And then I did not sleep well for the next seven days. I would, I would nap a lot. And I'm very like, I have to move every day. Like I have to get my body up and do an hour of something. Otherwise I'm like, you know, it's not good. Get, if I see it in the afternoon, I haven't done something, I'm like, so this is nasty.

1:11:48I don't know why, it's just, it's just, I mean, It's not like I can control it, but I feel much better for doing it. So I'm like, now three, four days of not doing any exercise, and I've just done so much to get in to turn off as is near impossible. So in bed, you know, just be up all night, staring at the ceiling, and then I'd finally get a sleep on the couch, and that's when I'd wake up. Just like, it's a really, really hard thing to explain because you're like, you know, it's all okay, and everyone's right around you saying, it is fine. It is fine. and yet you're like, I don't trust you. Like, I'm literally trying to do this thing and it's not done.

1:12:25I'd had it on the Osran where I had like road trains because they were constantly on the, like trucks, big trucks, big trailers. They were constantly on the highway. And I reckon I'd run past 100 of them in each day over the 100K. We're getting to one of the roadhouses where I'd sleep for the night. And the whole night, I just have these road trains coming at me. and I'd be like spinning at the wall because I was spitting so much because there's so much dust in my mouth throughout the whole run. So I'd be like traumatized, like road train, I'd jump and then I'd like spit at the wall. And I'm like, I'm in a room, I can't spit at walls.

1:12:58Well, I'd wake up in like a panic, like, and so I kind of knew what to expect this time round. I knew that this would happen. And I kind of like weirdly enjoyed it. Like when do you get to that point where you actually get to feel those things because of what you've done to yourself? And then that's what I really like in this period now is that I know I'm going to crash for certain. I know there'll be a point where I'm a bit lost. I've devoted my life to this pursuit of this thing with no real plans after it. And I kind of give myself that time now because you can't have ups without downs, you can't have downs without ups.

1:13:35I love feeling those downs. I love feeling that because I know when I do process what just happened, and I'll be so much prouder and so much more grateful about the $5 million we raised, you know, like it's those things, I don't think you can feel the beauty of those without this kind of really downtime. And I'm okay, I know how to deal with those, but it is one of those things that I think people kind of push away is like, I can't feel terrible. I need to like, I think lean into it. The way you lean into feeling good and finishing, you should lean into like, why is my head like this? Why am I feeling these things?

1:14:09What's this emotion? I love those like more than anything. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Shopify. Look, you're not going into business to learn about how to code, or build a website, or do back -end inventory management. Shopify takes all of that off your hands and allows you to focus on the job that you came here to do, which is designing and selling a cool product. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify, and that is why they're the global force behind gym shark and skims and allo and... ...Newtonic. When it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class.

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1:15:20I try to, it's difficult when I'm on tour, but yeah, I try to. And I just can't, I mean, I can. If I go if I intentionally wanted to do it, I'd be able to do it. But I just I just haven't given myself the I think it seems like running might be a pretty good proxy for that for you. Really? Um, but what I realized was that people have a variety of modalities. Maybe it's fucking weightlifting. Maybe it's running. Maybe it's meditation. Maybe it's breath work. Maybe it's whatever. A lot of the time when you feel an emotion that arises inside of you, especially one that you don't like, you're not going to be able to do it.

1:15:53you have some sort of coping mechanism that makes it go, wait, now you can alchemize it into something beautiful, right? You know, running a thousand miles around a track or doing whatever roster to, you know, that, I feel something and I'm going to lean in and I'm going to grip my teeth and I'm going to do this really fucking phenomenal. Great way to turn something like pretty bad and useless into something that's really magnificent. But the same thing with meditation, emotional rises inside of you, release and allow it. Okay, you still haven't actually got to the root of where that fucking emotions coming from.

1:16:26And this is only something I learned since doing therapy over the last year that it's like you can keep doing that and you can have really beautiful coping mechanisms. The one that makes you run, the one that makes you lift the weight, the one that makes you swim around the UK, the one that helps you to be more mindful or a peaceful person. But it still doesn't get to the actual core. At no point are you going, you're finding a way to get it up and out of you, but at no point you're actually looking inside and going, yeah, but why does that keep coming up? Like, why is that thing there? And not everything actually needs assessment in that way.

1:16:57There's some stuff that just is a lot way too much getting assessed. Yes, there's stuff that just is. You do this very intense thing. You dedicate yourself to something for a long time out the other side of it. Well, the fuck did you expect? Yeah, of course. You've been like monomaniacally focused on this one thing for months and months and months and then you finally do it. There's a fucking existential crisis coming, like it's gonna happen, always gonna happen to every person that does that sort of a thing. But on the other side, the stuff that's ugly like more mundane, I think the patterns, the assumptions you have about yourself and about the world, your relationship, your place in it, it's like, hey if that thing keeps coming up, even if you've got a great beautiful coping strategy, Yeah, like you can either continue to keep on coping and coping and coping and coping for the rest of your life But you get really but here's the fucking dangerous thing that a lot of people probably think which is well if I get rid of the emotion What about the useful coping what if my desire to go to the gym or to run the races or to be mindful or to be peaceful?

1:17:54What if that goes away? What if that goes away because what if the only reason I do the good things is because the bad thing that's motivating it and that sort of If, honestly, like a fear of peace, I mean, very much a fear of novelty. It's like, well, I've kind of got some kind of stasis here. And even if it's like a little bit out of balance, I'm going to have to get it back into balance. If I take something away, even if it makes life better, I'm now out of balance again. I've got it all compensated. Do you feel like you've got like a just, you need to do things or do you feel like you're at peace with whatever happens this way we go, life's good?

1:18:26No, I have very much in need for control in my life. I mean, very structured, very organized, very routineized, and getting more used to being sort of free flowing in that way might be useful. But then on the flip side, people are constructed differently, and we find solutions that work for us. And this is one of the reasons why I'm so hesitant about anybody that gives one size fits all answers to success or mindfulness or what you should do in life and stuff, because is what most people have done that are successful is they have found a very specific way that works for their mental pathology and their fucking construction.

1:19:08Well, they're environments where what exactly. So Matthew Siod, sports reporter in the tennis world, really interesting, Jockovic in a Dalton Federer, all world world champions at the same time, but all of them have massively different training styles, one super aggressive, one super fun, one super robotic, but all of them traded places. So you go, if I want to be a world tennis champion, which one do I do? And you go, well, it depends who you fucking are. Yeah. You might be one of them has been a fucking tennis champion. Yeah. Yeah. And all of them have different approaches. So I love about that.

1:19:38I don't know who it was on your pod when you talk about the, you know, you might be 98 % right. Yes. Rich ribs. Yeah. So. And then that the 2 % right is something that you should still listen to. Like people being certain on something that is potentially not so certain. Is it an odd way to share the truth between us? Yeah, I love that so much. It was a really good way to be. What did you make of that Jill Stark article that was written about you? Uh, I'm really spoken about to many people. I think it has a vote. It's allowed people to start conversation about this topic and I'm the least, I would like to say toxic human being, I'm not at all.

1:20:31And the fact that my mother was my immediate support person shows that I can't really, like she is, I would love Jill to speak to my mother. Like that would be amazing. I think it was quite opportunistic. I think it was like a bit of a click -bady kind of article, but I think it's allowed people to question and there is the Jim bro, I must be tough, I must not deal with emotions, I must be stoic and no one, you know, do not talk about emotions. There's that side of things that needs to probably be addressed a bit more, but then there's the like, we also don't need to be too aware of our emotions all the time.

1:21:14I think you need to be aware, but use them to your benefit and be, yeah, I mean, I don't, I just don't want to, I don't want to get too, I understand. I understand. Yeah, but I just think, I got nothing against Jill, I'm sure she's amazing. I didn't read too much of the article. I just saw it. I just knew it was a tainted, a really, it was just not needed. Yeah, because I did do that. For the people that didn't read it, men's mental toughness is just toxic masculinity rebranded. Cult hero Ned Brockman's grueling 1600 kilometer charity run has Aussie's talking but now everybody sees it in a positive light basically that Doing hard physical things denies you of tapping into your emotions in a way to coping mechanism etc etc Look I think that the modern world has a multiplicity of problems one of them is victimhood one of them is people needing more resilience they need Goggins screaming in their face Yeah, another group of people are the ones who do push too hard And that do need someone to say, hey man, maybe you should slow down and read some poetry outside or go for a walk or do whatever.

1:22:20And I think horses for courses with regards to this, if you are someone that is doing something very, very good and very, very hard and very, very inspiring. So not hell. So not. Yeah, it's very, very different and very difficult. There's really interesting study out of the US and Taiwan that showed men who suppress positive emotions have worse mental health outcomes than ones who suppress negative emotions. So, you know, when we're talking about all of the dangers of men not opening up and all the rest of it, I've spent a fucking ton of time in the live show that I've done here talking about opening up and opening up on stage.

1:23:01But very few people are saying, what about helping yourself to achieve some glory and some pride and to conquer something and get mastery and feel really fucking good and positive? What about like, oh, guys list, I'm sure that there's an article out there that says this, guys listening to heavy metal music in the car whilst on caffeine is like right wing coded or whatever, you know, all of this, like fitness is right wing coded. And you go, yeah, but what if it makes them feel happy and fucking full for the day. What's that? The scene for a part of the day. Yeah, and they rock up to their family and they've been inspired and ready to go.

1:23:35Yeah. Like, yeah, I think it's, I just, I, there was a friend of my own shared an article that talked about the Jill Stark article and me and then just framed it in a really like, well, what is different to Ned Brockman running a thousand miles and screaming because his in pain or yeah, being happy because he finished another day to Jessica Watson who sailed around the world and being excited and it's like what's the difference? We're men and women, we're pursuing something hard and we're showing ourselves. I'm not I'm not saying be tough be a man. I'm saying be tough. Do we do an uncomfortable challenge?

1:24:11Go and sleep on the street. Speak to someone on the street. This is not gender toxic masculinity related at all. This is do hard things because you will grow and to paint it with that brush is just so out of context. What's the sleeping on the street thing? Oh, we like just as part of the uncomfortable challenge people sign up and said, I'm going to go on straight sleep on the street and see what it feels like for 10 days. Wow, that's one of the yeah, yeah, yeah, and speaking to the people on the street for 10 days or No, like all those things that that was yeah, someone. Why is homelessness such a big thing for me?

1:24:45Yes, um the fact that we're all human beings and I I feel like no one ever wants to be homeless. No one's chosen to be homeless. Whatever, for whatever reason, they've ended up there. A lot of homelessness is out of their control. I've been fortunate enough to have the backing, like my family are there, and if something goes wrong, I can always rely on them. A lot of people don't have anyone to rely on. And then they go down a path of, you know, It just, for me, I feel for these people because they didn't have the same access to things that I had throughout my upbringing and even in education or all those things that I just feel we all should have the ability to know we have a roof ever ahead, a shower at night and a good bit of taco to eat every day.

1:25:42So that for me, I just like, I wanna bring awareness to it. I don't know how to fix it. I don't know how to solve homelessness, but what I do know is if we can make enough noise about it and get people saying each other, regardless of status, wealth, all those things, saying each other is human beings, I think that's why I chose homelessness. Because I think by being in the front of the public eye and having that voice, you can get everyone involved and go, oh, this is something we can help. Is it a big problem in Australia? It's nowhere near as a state. When I went over there, I was like blown away.

1:26:20It was in LA and yeah, I was crying all the time. I was like, this is fucked up. Like this is sad. But there's 126 ,000 in Australia every, it's sleeping rough. So that doesn't mean on the street, but that means car, cap surfing. Yeah, I mean, I'm just, I'm compassionate for that because I don't like, I would hate to see someone I know personally in that scenario. And I, as I said, we're all just human beings. We all should have the same access to things. And I think we're also, we have access to so much. So why can't we help those people? There was a Prince William documentary. Yeah, homelessness.

1:27:05You see this? I haven't seen it. I've seen it. So Prince William was criticized for a big new documentary saying he will show the UK how to prevent homelessness, the main critic said that he should leave it to the experts and non -government movement needers aren't needed. Very strange. Yeah, and I think, like, with mobilized the charity I'm working with, it's really exciting. We're seeing like the noise created from this that it's now going, oh, government's got to get involved because it's almost too loud to take on. So they're getting behind it now because of what we've done and the funding and it's going to become this Hopefully It's like we've started something that It hurts people off the street and gets people into safe housing into Kids into school things like that where you know, you see a mother with a child who's living out of a car or like that stuff is It's interesting man bottom -up social change campaigns for stuff that everybody broadly already agrees with It's like, well, why did we need this much motivation to get this thing moving in any case?

1:28:11No one wants more homelessness. No. You know, like the homeless people don't want it. No. The house people don't want it. Yeah. Like no one wants more homelessness. Why's it taking this? Yeah, exactly. But I don't know, it kind of makes me think, well, maybe that was a, it's evidently a worthwhile effort if it takes still a lot of work. Of course. work relatively like a minimal amount of work in order to cause this big sort of snowball moving downhill, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, it is cool. What else would you be interested in looking at? Is homelessness just the entirety of your...

1:28:46Um, it's not necessarily like this is it, right? It's like, I would say through what I've done now, my passion is definitely getting people moving and live giving get uncomfortable. I think that's the big message. But right now the homelessness scene, I want to end it, I want to get people like I want to see the change happen in real time. So that's why I want I don't want to be an ultra runner that goes, I'm going to raise for this one this time because it's fave of the month. I'm genuinely care about homelessness. And the thing with these guys too is they work with everyone. It's It's them going, we want to work with everyone who's already, so it's like whether it's Orange Sky, like people who clean clothes or haircuts or all these things that already established.

1:29:35So they can sit at the top and then. Yeah, and they go, here's, we've got the funding. Here you go. Let's help, let's do this. That's awesome. Yeah, it's really, really cool. So it's not about them being the ones who've done it. It's them helping and facilitating everyone else who's helping as well. And the funding because of the, there's no red tape, it's not caught up in government stuff. It's, this is funding from the 55 ,000 people who donated and the big copies who got behind it. It's like, here we go, go nuts. And hopefully that through the uncomfortable challenge every year, people just like November, right?

1:30:03That's the goal. I want it to be, I want everyone doing it in October. I want everyone doing an uncomfortable challenge because it's like that time of the year where we go, oh yeah, that's where we do this hard thing and we raise money for people who need it. It's like, this is going to be an October thing, Emily. I call it October. Neds uncomfortable challenge, October. Oh, very nice. Yeah. Yeah. I want it, I want it like, that's my goal. And that's, again, that might be the next thing I going to is like, let's build this thing out. So it becomes this ingrained in the nation psyche. Like, and I love shooting for the stars.

1:30:32I love like taking on a challenge. It might be impossible, but in the pursuit of it, I think is a pretty cool, whatever happens. It can't, it can't be bad. The result. Dude, I love it. I appreciate the fuck out of you. And I'm really excited to see what you do next. Appreciate it, mate. I've really, really enjoyed today and I appreciate you. Thanks for last night. And yeah, you're a good man. No pleasure. Why should people go keep up to date with the charity stuff, your stuff, for everything else. Yeah, just Ned Brockman, Ned's on a couple of challenges on Instagram. I mean, social media is a necessary evil for these things.

1:31:03If I could, I do mean this, if I could not be on social media and still raise the money, inspire, and, you know, there's a commercial aspect of things, so you have to do what you have to do. But if I could do that without social media, no one would fucking know who I was. But it's a necessary evil and it's the game we all play against. the ultimate price that you have to pay. Exactly. And it's all worth it. All worth it. Appreciate you, mate. Appreciate it, mate. Come in.