#882 - The Best Moments Of Modern Wisdom (2024)

25:16What is the, what is the nobility? But I think the reason that you can feel noble about it and the reason that it you a positive reward is you know that you understand every single inch of the things and that if you want to hold a conversation, we went out for dinner with our new CFO and accounts people on Saturday and they said, you ask a lot of questions. Most people don't ask very many questions and I also don't care at all about accounts really. Like I'm not doing this for money, but they said you ask a lot of questions. Is that, well, I don't ever really want to walk into a room and not be able to hold my own, at least just competently, if it's to do with something that I care about.

26:03The same thing goes for this. I started to learn about focal lengths and frame rates and negative fill reverse contrast lighting. Then, sure enough, two years after we started doing it, a bunch of different, I sent you the Instagram thing. There's really awesome film Instagram that I've been following for ages. is picked us up for what we were doing and gave us props independent of the turkey thing which is fundamentally what we're here for. And we created this entire new industry of like cinematic podcasting which was recognized by, as far as I'm aware, like the best cinematic, it's called film light at film light to people who can go and see it on Instagram.

26:41Like the best decoder and analyzer of cinematography. And two years ago when we started, I remember thinking, fuck, like I love the way that they've broken down what happens in ad Astra. Oh my god, the whole thing was shot on 35 million. Each different scene's got two pairings of colors and stuff like that. And then but the reason that we were able to get there at least in some part is I can have a conversation with people. So each of the things that you do when you not only win in the weeds but live in the weeds then allows you downstream from that to see the things that other people aren't seeing.

27:13There's a quote that I love from Dr. Keshe. I'll probably butcher it. But experts have more ways to win than beginners do. And so if an expert goes into any setting that they're expert in, they have so many faster feedback loops that reward them in the moment before the ultimate outcome. So if you're a master video editor, there's so many things that you can do that while editing you make one change and then it looks right, you have a positive feedback loop. And so I think when you're on the start path, you can't look at the outcome is the only positive because you will never make it. And so the positive frame that I've always used is sure you can have the external ones of like I like thinking about my first videos had like 13 views.

27:57And I'm like, well, if I had an audience of 13 people, I used to spend years pitching, you know, weight loss stuff to rims of 13. And that was fine. And so thinking about that way was helpful. But the most helpful frame was thinking about who I was becoming as the asset that I was building. So in real time, whenever I finished a long day's work, I was becoming more like the type of person who could work for five years without reward. And that would be part of the story I would someday tell. And so some of the biggest reinforces I've had in my life has been future casting the story that I would tell about the shitty period that I was in.

28:33Like I remember when I was sleeping on the floor at my gym because I didn't have enough money for two rents. And I was like, I will fucking tell this story. And I have the screenshot of the bank account. Like when I show it, people are like, oh look, there's that thing, but they forget that there was a person who screenshot it to be like, this won't fucking happen again. And I think having a larger narrative of where you're ultimately going, one gives you the vision of where you're like, the moment like, knows where he's going. But it allows the dragons that you have to slay along the way, the hard things that you have to overcome to feed into the larger narrative of the story that you'll someday tell.

29:13And so like, no one ever tells stories about the hero who made it all happen immediately and had no hardships. No one cares. But I like, okay, you were born to a billionaire. Is there a story there? Not really. But everyone loves the story because we can see ourselves in the character and how much we hope to be like them. And it's the being like them, not the having what they have that we usually like. And so reframing ourselves as the hero of that narrative in my harder times was what really got me through that and thinking, I will tell the story of some day. If you heard Rogan talk about the Be the Hero of your own story thing, dude, it's his old now, I think this is maybe, maybe even 10 years old, my 10 years old.

29:57And he's in one of his old, he's in the LA podcast studio and he says, imagine that you're in a movie and imagine the movie begins now and you're the hero of the movie. Yeah. What would that guy do? Yeah. What would that guy do right now? Yeah. Because you are. I just got into business. So actually, I just made the investment in school and I was talking to Sam, the founder. And I said, what? Sam. Sam. What's Sam? That's why he says he's on the line. Oh, yeah. And I was talking to him and I said, I want to give you the single easiest razor to predict my behavior. And I said, whatever will be the most epic story is the thing that I will most likely do.

30:47And so oftentimes the most epic story is not the shortest outcome to victory. It's the long saga that results in this big thing later eventually. And I was like, if you ever want to know if you're like, I'm not sure what he's going to do in the situation. just wonder what the most epic story to tell would be, and that's usually what I will do. And I don't know if that's self -aggrandizing, but that's genuinely my razor for even making that is like the big decisions about, okay, I'm gonna sell gym launch, I'm gonna marry Laila, I'm gonna slum it and live at the gym, I'm going to fly around and do turnarounds, I'm gonna start this whole idea of a media company that just gives exclusively.

31:31They're like, how do I put all these together? It's like, well, what would be the most epic story? And I thought of this idea of just like when I think about who that story I want to tell is, is this billionaire that documented the entire thing the whole way and just gave. Because I always thought, I was like, I wish that Elon Musk and Warren Buffett and all these guys would have like, and Jeff Bezos, like would have just like, I would love to You have seen 1997 Amazon content. And a lot of the content in terms of like, it's getting five views. It's like, it's okay because when we make it, they're going to come back and watch this.

32:05So I don't need them to watch it today. I want them to know that it's here when I do. And I think that got me out of the loop of it. I have to win right now. And then every one of them is just dropping a kernel or a breadcrum for future meats refer back to. One of the first places that people are going to go to, and I'm going to guess one of the most common questions that you've got asked, what exercises do I need to be doing? Yeah, all of them, bro. Right. Yeah. That's it. And then I just walk away and they're like, wow, like I supposed to be smart or something like that. But then they see the back of my very shiny head and it makes them happy.

32:38Yes. Okay. Which exercises? So there is a lot to say about it. But you can start with the supposition that it's whatever exercise nominally targets the muscle you want to grow. So if you want bigger biceps, you know, some variation of doing this is probably good. And then to be honest, that's maybe 80 % of the answer. So if a lot of people, here's why I'm saying that, a lot of people will look at let's say for quads. They'll look at haxquats, they'll look at leg presses, They look at lunges and they look at regular high bar squats. And they'll vex themselves infinitely over the question of which one of these is superior, which is kind of like asking, you know, I need to get to Austin, Texas in two days, which airline should I take?

33:25Like you ask someone who works at the airport, which airlines like really the one I should be taking? They're like, I don't know. All of them really get you there. There are subtle differences, but at least make sure the ticket says Austin, Texas. So if the exercise hits that muscle, then you're good to go. Now, there are ways of seeing which exercises hit the target muscle that you want. A couple of what we are P at RP called proxies for stimulus. So this is something like tension. The perception of a lot of tension generated or exposed in that muscle. So if you're doing chest flies and you feel a crap load of stretch and pulling in the chest, that's probably good.

34:03If you're doing what you think is a chest fly, but you miss red, the machine's instruction, thing and you feel a ton of tension in your biceps or your forms or your shoulders, but you don't really honestly feel anything in the chest. On a just pure physics perspective because of the mechanics of the movement, your chest has to be getting some exposure. But maybe you could be doing better by actually doing the exercise in a way or picking an exercise that really you feel some tension off of. Another clue to if you're stimulating the muscle properly is the burn and that's seen in a medical context when people don't wear proper protection.

34:38I know that resonates with you personally because the conversation we had right before this. I don't need to expose you, but, but Chris, you could just be making better choices what I'm trying to say. All theoretical, I've never been with a woman as everyone who watches our YouTube knows. But on a serious note, the burn is in especially higher rep sets, when you start feeling the accumulation of metabolic byproducts in the target muscle. So the chest flannelogy, if you're doing hybrid pect lies and at the end of that set your pecs are burning. Hey, that's probably good. You're probably getting a good stimulus there.

35:08On the other hand, if it's just your biceps that are burning, but your pecs don't really feel much, are you getting a stimulus in that exercise? Oh, yeah, sure. Is it guaranteed to be a really robust, really good stimulus? Probably not, because you should be feeling some combination of tension and burn. And then also there's pump. Again, none of these are mandatory, but together, they're kind of like puzzle pieces that take wood could be a C plus exercise for you and make it an A plus exercise if you're getting all the feelings right on this. So another one is pump. How much after several sets of the workout or of the exercise, how filled with fluid is your target muscle?

35:46So if you're doing pack flies and after a couple of sets, you know, a girl walks by and she's like, oh my god, she runs away. I guess that's good, even though she ran away, but she ran away in a way that you obviously respected your peck size, which is the whole point of the gym. But if you do a bunch of sets of something, let's say you're doing peck flies, your shoulders are pumped, your biceps are pumped, even your forearms look more viny, but to be kind of honestly, your chest has changed any visible or palpable way. No doubt, still change your pecks, but maybe not that great. Another one is perturbation, which kind of presents itself in two forms.

36:22One is, is that target muscle feeling really weak? So let's say you do a few pack exercises and you think they're for the chest. And then you try to push yourself into your car, like push off your steering wheel, and you feel like a profound weakness in that pack. You're like, oh my god, a really good example is if you're trying to walk downstairs after you hit quads. If you think you hit quads, but you really hit glutes and adductors, You can hop skip down the stairs, no fucking problem. Are we allowed to swear in here? Is that not a good idea? Where's if you're doing this on the handrail? Yes, like desperately cleaning for dear life and your legs are shaky.

36:55Another thing with perturbation is crampy. None of this is required. But if your chest cramps hard when you're trying to pose after a few sets of whatever you're doing, the whatever you're doing, absolutely hit your chest. You know, the thing is weakness too. So if I tell you, hey, this mega peck workout, what's your best bench? And you're like, well, it's like, you know, 200 pounds for a set of 10. and I take you through a mega peck workout. After that, if we put 200 pounds on there, if you bench it for any of the close to 10, your pecks never got very fatigued, which almost certainly means they never got very stimulated.

37:23So you should see a pretty big repetition strength drop off. If you can barely do a push up after a chest workout, oh shit, something happened to your pecks for sure, especially if you feel like your chest is the kind of onus of weakness in that movement. So those are all ways to kind of proxy that. And I would say in another one, again, not a huge deal, not the deal, but a good little additive to the mix is do you feel any kind of weakness or soreness that persists for hours or days after? So for example, if you do some kind of new quad machine at your gym and two days later your inner thighs or sore, your glutes or physically sore, your quads aren't either the way you did it, which I'm sure we'll get to technique or just the exercises itself.

38:02It says quads, but it's really not quads. Maybe it is to some extent, but you would expect if you had a novel stimulus to feel some kind of soreness. But if you did something that says quads on it and then the day later you can barely walk and you're sore to the touch, then you have to have stimulated your quads. There is no alternative. So all those things are in the plus side category and any exercise that hits a bunch of those checkmarks for you, man, that's a good exercise for you. And we're all different. So some people respond better to a pack fly machine, some people to dumbbell, some people to cable, some people to something in between.

38:34whatever exercise checks those boxes for you really well, that's probably a good exercise for you at least for the time being. We're here in a spooky field with a car on fire and a full moon and a weird house over the far side. Yeah. Have you got any stories that fit this environment? I do. I do. I have a really good one from out in Utah in the 1970s. We don't have the names of the people involved. I'm going to call them a man and a woman, but you know, So this is every bit their story. We just don't use their names. I think they actually didn't want their names used. That's what I recall. So back in the 1970s, there was this young guy and young girl, the main characters of the story.

39:15And they, I think they met in college and they go out on this first date. They go to a restaurant at diner and they got along fine, but there wasn't any magic. It was, you know, kind of a nothing date that they both kind of instinctively knew that this was likely not gonna go anywhere beyond this first date. There's no chemistry. However, they both kind of intuitively noticed it and the guy towards the end of the date when it's kind of like, okay, time to wrap things up. Now, he decided to take a chance. He figured, what's the worst that can happen? I already can tell this isn't going anywhere and he says to his date, he says, you know, do you wanna do something kind of unexpected?

39:54You wanna like go do something kind of crazy with me right now? And the girl was actually like kind of taking a back. Okay, what do you want to do? And he's like, well, I oftentimes go for walks out in Provo Canyon, this beautiful canyon that's nearby. It's got this amazing trail. It brings you out to this overlook with this incredible view of the stars. Like it's a really cool spot. And I go there later in the day and no one's there and it's pretty cool, but it's, you know, we're hiking in the woods in the middle of the night. You know what I mean? And she's like, okay, let's do it. It's like suddenly the date went from going nowhere to it's kind of exciting.

40:29And so now there's chemistry. It's like they're going into the unknown together. And so they quickly leave the diner, they hop in his car, and it's a short drive over to the parking lot where Provo Canyon is, he pulls into the spot, there's nobody there, they get out, and now there really is. They're getting along, they're kind of laughing, telling jokes, they're holding hands, and they walk right from the parking lot onto this paved trail that goes right into the forest. And so it's nighttime, you know, just a very, this is a well used trail. This is not some goat trail in the middle of nowhere.

40:59This is a well used trail. And so they start walking into the forest. And after a while, and this is something they would say after the fact, but we know this what was happening. As they were walking, the feel, the vibe of the night really changed as soon as they got into the woods. You know, they're excited. the state suddenly become exciting and then they get into the forest. They're on the trail, they're holding hands, they're walking, and both of them began feeling this really intense dread as they're walking in. But they don't know each other. This is their first date. They don't have the background of a relationship to begin touching on something that's hard to point out.

41:36Neither of them turned to the other and said, I feel uncomfortable. Instead, they just kept their mouth shut and thought, okay, I'll just keep on going. They stopped talking. They begin walking faster out of this nervous energy they have now. their holding hands and they're just walking through this trail because they're trying to get to this overlook, basically get it out of the way and come on back. But it's all unspoken. They haven't said, boy, this is anxious, they're just they're feeling that way. And so they're walking on this trail again surrounded by trees, there's nobody else out there and it's pretty dark.

42:02They don't have a flashlight. And as they're basically speed walking at this point in silence, at some point they hear a rustling sound kind of off to the side. And at the exact same time, the guy steps on something that he described as being soft. And he stepped on it and he has no idea what he's stepping on, no clue. It's something soft. And he's heard this rustling sound and they're feeling anxious. And he immediately stops because he stepped on something and the girl, she's sensing, okay, what's going on here? And without any communication, they turned and walked out, didn't even look down.

42:33They didn't, they have no idea what's going on. It was like, they both knew, let's get the fuck out of here. I don't know what's going on out here. And they practically ran back to their car, totally safe. They get in their car. And now that they're in the safety of their car, they kind of begin laughing about it like, yeah, I wonder what that was. I stepped on something out there. I don't know, something moving around. Maybe there's a big animal. I don't know. But that was it. It was just, that was the whole date. And actually, they wound up getting married because this date was like this kind of amazing thing, but they bonded over the fear of being in this forest.

43:01And so they get married. And 10 years later, they are at home. And the TV is on. It's tuned to like a date line type of show, like a true crime show. and neither of them are really watching. But an interview comes on and it's a journalist talking to a death row inmate. It's a very famous death row inmate and he's very near his execution date and he's giving this kind of full -blown interview about what he did. And at some point, the journalist asked him, was there ever a time that you almost got caught before you got caught? And the serial killer is like, yeah, Yeah, there was a time. I was out in Provo Canyon and I just killed a girl and I was trying to dispose of her body and I dragged her across the trail.

43:48And this young couple comes turning around the corner and they stepped on the body. And I was maybe a foot away holding her, looking up at them in the darkness, waiting to see what they were gonna do. But for some reason, the couple didn't look down, they didn't look around, they just turned and left. And so that was it. That was the time I was caught caught. And so it turned out, the guy, or they had come in contact with Ted Bundy, like one of the most infamous serial killers of all time, who effectively said had he investigated, he would have had to kill the couple. That's great. So they got their first date was running into Ted Bundy.

44:22Wow. Yeah. Oh my God. And actually, if you're interested, there's several other close calls with Ted Bundy that if you Google close calls with Ted Bundy, he came close to killing people several times. And it's I don't have those VW Beetle. There's something in the VW Beetle. I forget what it was. Unfortunately, I don't remember all the the anecdotes, but there's quite a few that are, that one is the most startling because it's so like, visceral what happened. But the others were, you know, this girl who almost went on a date with Ted Bundy, but then got a bad feeling about it and canceled and it like the day later he gets arrested for being Ted Bundy.

44:59Stuff like, or one person who Ted Bundy randomly befriended this woman. And I think they were dating for a while and he was very close with her child. And it was, I mean, he's like in their family while he's killing other people at the same time. And then he just broke up with her and moved on. Like, he didn't do anything to her or her family while he's actively killing all these women. But for some reason, he just had this normal, family, happy, wholesome relationship with this girl for like a year. And she would find out after he was executed that she was actively dating a serial killer. So it's just Ted Bundy had all these weird interactions with people that have been documented.

45:33But that one, to me, is the most startling. How can people become a morning person or learn to get up early more easily and more regularly? Yeah. Three days of pain, the rest is easy. So it takes about three days to shift the biological mechanisms to make you a morning person. Now, if you are a very strongly genetically determined night owl. That's a thing. That's a thing. So there are genetic mutations, they call them polymorphisms that make some people night owls, they feel best psychologically and physically going to sleep at about 1, 2, or 3 a .m. and waking up somewhere around, you know, 10, 11 a .m.

46:15or noon. That exists not just during development or teen years, but that exists not just for social reasons. Other people are true. Morning people they feel absolutely best going to sleep around 8 p .m. or 9 p .m. 10 p .m. will be late for them and they feel great waking up at 4, 5 or 6 a .m. Okay, most people feel best going to sleep somewhere between 10 and midnight and waking up somewhere between 6 a .m. and 8 a .m. or so maybe 5 30 to 8 a .m. Okay So those are three bins of the night owl the morning person and then the more typical schedule But it's heavily weighted toward that typical schedule if you look at the general population.

46:53So If somebody wants to get up earlier you need to stack the four primary what are called Zike Gabbars or Time Keepers. So named because some of the early chronobiologists that discovered this stuff and the underlying mechanisms were German as it were. So the number one Zike Gabbar, the number one way to shift your circadian clock, which is this cluster of neurons that sits a few centimeters above the roof of your mouth, is to view bright light at a time when you want to be awake, aka the morning. So that's why I say get outside, look at the sun toward the sun. Don't force yourself to stare at it.

47:30Don't damage your eyes blink as needed. No sunglasses. I Glasses corrective lenses in context are absolutely fine. Even if they have UV protection. Okay However, if you combine that with another zeitgabre the second most powerful zeitgabre is exercise or movement So if you do some jumping jacks you skip some rope or you can just take a walk while facing the sun Now you're starting to stack different zeitgabers and I'll explain the mechanisms in a moment If you then also add caffeine, now this spits in the face a little bit of what I said a few minutes ago, but if you were to add caffeine, you can in train as it's called the circadian clock to be alert at that time a bit more.

48:10And I'll be honest, if I'm gonna exercise first thing in the morning, I need caffeine. I can't wait that 60 to 90 minutes. If I need to jump right into exercise, I find it's easiest for me to do 30 minutes after waking, three hours after waking or 11 hours after waking, and a lot of people find that the same. but of course exercise when you can because it's that important. But if you want to quote unquote optimize your energy levels for exercise, typically people will notice that has to do with your temperature rhythm. Okay, so we've got sunlight, we've got exercise or movement of any kind, it could be jumping jacks, it could be walking, you don't have to do a full workout, and then caffeine and in some cases food.

48:45I'm not big on eating first thing in the morning, I don't like to eat until 11am or noon, that's one of my first semilarives for me, just naturally that's when I get hungry, It's all caffeine and hydration prior to that. But if you were to eat something first thing in the morning, that's part of the way you and train your circadian clock to wake up, to essentially wake you up earlier. And then the fourth one is a social rhythm. If you're interacting with other people, you are going to train your clock to that as well. So yes. So there's a social component to circadian and training. Now, the pathways for these are from the eye, in the case of viewing light, to the circadian in the case of caffeine, it's more general.

49:25In the case of exercise, there's literally a brainstem to circadian clock connection, a big, it's super high way of neuronal connections, that then so -called intranes, you're circadian clock. Remember, your circadian clock generates an intrinsic 24 hour rhythm, such that if we put you into constant dark or constant light, you would still sleep for a given bout and then be alert for a given bout with a little bit of a nap. It just is what we call free run. It would drift a little later each day. This is what happens when you go to Vegas. This is what happens when you're in an environment without a lot of cues about the day, the sunlight rising and setting cycle.

50:02Sunlight, exercise, caffeine and eating and social interactions, bring your circadian clock into alignment with all of those zeitgabers. So when I said it takes three days, is if tomorrow you want to start beginning the process of becoming an early riser, you'd set your alarm for 5 a .m. No matter what time you want to sleep the night before, you're gonna get up and you're gonna do the four things that I describe, maybe leave out food if you don't want to eat. Maybe leave out caffeine if you want to delay by 90 minutes. It's gonna hurt. And then by the early afternoon, you'll be dragging a bit.

50:36And you just have to be careful to not overindulge in caffeine, which will then cause you to fall asleep later. Then you want to go to sleep at your now naturally slightly earlier sleep time. The next day, you'll notice it'll be a little bit easier to do the morning routine I just described. And by the third day, you ought to be waking up with or before the alarm by a few minutes or moments because your circadian clock has phase shifted. Okay, it's phase advanced, as we say. Your circadian clock intrinsic to you generates a 24 .2 or 24 .3 hour rhythm. It's not perfectly 24 hours. And that we believe, we don't know, but the just so story is that it's that it's such that that you're able to then shift that clock in one or the other direction.

51:23You can phase advance, you wake up early and go to sleep earlier, you can phase delay. How do you phase delay? Well, you're probably doing this already. Everyone nowadays pretty much qualifies as a shift worker by the strict and not so strict criteria of shift work, which is, are you doing any kind of cognitive activity after 9pm? Are you viewing any kind of bright lights after 9 .30pm? Most people would say yes. So the diabolical thing about the circadian timing system is that it requires a lot of bright light, ideally from sunlight, but a lot of bright light early in the day to make you a morning and daytime person.

51:56But it requires just a little bit of bright light, even from an artificial source, after the hours of about 9 .30 p .m. till 4 a .m. to quash your melatonin and make it difficult to sleep, or if you sleep to make that sleep not as effective. There's a simple remedy, however, which is, and this is a beautiful study published in science reports in 2022. If you view sunlight in the afternoon, even for five minutes or so, could be late afternoon, could be sunset, take off your sunglasses, look in the direction of the sun, so now looking west, you adjust the sensitivity of your retina, the neurons in the back of your eye, such that bright light later at night doesn't have quite as much effect to suppress melatonin.

52:40And it reduces the melatonin -suppressive effects by about 50 % or offsets those. So I think of this afternoon viewing as, well, first of all, it's nice to look at a sunset. If you're indoors in an environment like this, even if there are bright lights on, get outside for a few minutes before the sun sets. that's, this is especially important in winter, even if you can't see the sun as an object, get some sunlight in your eyes, and that will at least partially offset the effects of bright light in your eyes at night, partially, and I refer to this more or less as your Netflix inoculation, so that that night you can be on your phone or watching Netflix and it's not going to disrupt your sleep as much, but it will still disrupt your sleep somewhat.

53:18But unless Rick Rubin's very diligent about wearing the Red Lens classes, I've started doing that as well, But if you don't do that, I'm guessing he also sees the sunset in the evening. He's very attached for good scientific reasons to the sunlight thing. But these are little things that take just moments, right? They're essentially zero cost that can really improve your sleep. But that's how you become a morning person. If you want to become a night person, you do the opposite. You view bright light between the hours of 4 p .m. and 10 p .m. and then you will phase delay or phase shift in a delayed way your circadian clock, making you want to wake up later the next morning.

53:59I wonder if dogs count as social interaction. Absolutely. And they have all of the same mechanisms we just described. So I just think how can we stack that everything first thing in the morning, morning walk? Yeah. If you're in a place that's not Iceland or somewhere that's super high north, dog, social interaction, moving around, and then caffeine if you do or if you don't, if you don't want it. But if you have a dog that likes to run, you're even better off because it'll force you to run. You're gonna have to chase after it. If you have an English bulldog, like I did, you'd be lucky if you get out of the mountain.

54:36Yeah, you're in the desert. Yeah, I was or drew be, and they don't like to move. But it is the case that dogs will naturally orient toward the sun. And people always ask you know, do dogs have the same mechanisms? Absolutely. Intrinsically photosensitive retinal gangling cells, the one that project to the clock and carry all of this thing about circadian and treatment to sunlight are present as far as we know in every extant mammalian species, every mammalian species that's alive today. And you know, this is a system that evolved from bacteria that's very similar to the the light of absorbing molecules that are in the insect eye.

55:14It's a very primordial system. It's organized very differently anatomically in the red. And to me, it's actually one of the more beautiful systems in all of us. In fact, the one thing that no one can seem to defeat, you're never going to biohack away is circadian biology. This, this, you know, fluctuation, 24 -hour fluctuation in energy and focus. You know, some people require less sleep, but we're all more or less a slave to these mechanisms. And it's a good thing that we are because it forces us to rest, neuroplasticity occurs during sleep, they push down a denocene, it takes us through these natural ebbs and cycles of cognition.

55:49I'm obsessed by the idea that in sleep, the conscious mind obviously is not in control. The unconscious mind can geyser up thoughts. The brain is organizing things more in terms of symbols, time and space are very organized very differently in dreams. And there's a lot of information to be gleaned from dreams. It's just that we don't yet understand what the symbols mean, the kind of classic Freudian and Jung -in interpretations are certainly not going to be complete, but I'm so grateful that we get this thing called sleep. And I think thanks to the great Matt Walker, we now understand that the whole thing of all sleep with him dead is a really dumb mindset.

56:24And my team at the Heberman Lab podcast, we sometimes joke that we win by sleeping. When we're in the peak of things, we all encourage each other to get rest. Get rest, we really prioritize sleep. It's so essential. How have you learned to have a better relationship with yourself, the voice inside of your head to be kinder if things go badly? You're smiling. I like me. I like me. I would buy me a drink. I look at me now and I see all the warts. Okay, I see all the negatives more than anybody else does. I see the positives and over the whole balance of stuff I like me and I can give myself the same grace.

57:17If you and I were friends I Can give myself the same grace I can give you Because I like me I like me in spite of my understanding and the reality of my weaknesses and my works and my scars and everything but you know, all in all, I'm a pretty good dude. And man, you gotta get to that point. Outside of arrogance, arrogance is pride mixed with ignorance. All right, that's the definition of arrogance. I'm not talking arrogance. I'm talking about, look, as a human being, I've felt it this, I've succeeded at that. I've raked this, but I've built that. and all and all, you know, I've tried and, but I like me.

58:05So I'm gonna give me some grace. Hence the symbols that I would buy me a cigar. I wonder how many men can say that? Not as many as should. And I'd say, how many people can say that? How many people say I like me? They would give more grace, more care, more attention, more love to somebody else than themselves. There's a statistic around, I think on average, the likelihood that you are going to complete a course of antibiotics, yourself, it's about 50%. The likelihood of your dog completing it is 95%. So we're literally capable of caring for a pet, nearly double as well as we can for ourselves.

58:52Remembering that if you die, no one can look after the pet. Right. So in an odd roundabout way, serving yourself and serving others from a cup which overflows around your own, Right. Or the saucer that sits around your cup is important. Without, and again, this sort of tension between being self -serving, being narcissistic, being egotistical, being self -centered, Yeah. We're not meaning that. Right. It's this delicate bounce, and this is what comes with growing up. Right. And I think this is why one size fits all flaming sword advice seems to die away as people get a little older. Yeah. You listen to a Joe Rogan and a lot of what he's saying is hedged in some regard.

59:40It's caveated. You know, it's this is what worked for me. Right. Right. Not this is how everybody should do it. Right. And yeah, there's a humility that comes with age. Right. Right. Right, because if you turn around and look back with open eyes at your life, you see all the scars, you know? I mean, you can't... You can't... The only way you cannot be humble in old age is when you refuse to look at the reality of your life up to today. I think that's the only way. Because nobody's skating through it perfectly. But this is what drives... This is what drives my... and it sounds ludicrous of my ears, but my business endeavors today.

1:00:22This is the core of what drives me. Okay, there is no business out there that I can take on. There is no monetary endeavor that I can take on that is worth the gamble of me losing me.

1:00:45It took me years of a lot of grief and pain and work to get to be who I am today and spider who I was. And I don't want to lose that. I don't want to lose myself in business. I don't want to lose myself in trying to earn a better living in trying to get a name and trying to do this. It's like I have turned down I Have turned down so much because I've looked at it and I've asked myself Who's this gonna make me be? Who's just gonna turn me into even a little bit? It's like it's just not worth it It's just not it's not worth it and so I'm right now trying to find the balance in Undertaking something that's not going to to alter me that I'm not going to lose myself and then not succeeding at something because I was too afraid to try it, which has never been an issue with me before.

1:01:49I've never been afraid of failure before, but now I've got something I don't want to lose. And that's myself that I actually like, a me that I actually like. Does that make any sense that you're just 100 % okay? The person that you have to spend the most time talking to in your life is yourself. Try not to lose their respect. Right. Right. And I think, you know, this was a lesson that I realized to what the end of my 20s were, I'd accumulated a lot of success and status in maybe the way that modern society tells a young man that he should with freedom and notoriety and women and stuff like that.

1:02:31And that was cool and to look back on fun. But it was beginning to get to the stage where I didn't like me all that much. I didn't do anything bad, but I just felt like there was, I was built for more, I was built for different, built for something else. And I realized that I wasn't keeping promises to myself. Right. That if I said I was going to wake up at a certain time, the snooze button would be hit three times. Right. If I said that I was going to stick to my diet, I'd go to the gym or do this thing, maybe it would happen, but it wouldn't happen quite the way that I'd meant it to. And there would be some negotiating and some cajoling and some falling short.

1:03:19So imagine that you had a friend and every time that you invited this friend out for lunch, They showed up an hour late or they didn't show up at all. After a while, you'd stop trusting them and stop inviting them out at all. Right. You are that friend to yourself. How can you have faith that you're going to go and do all of the things that you want in life when you can't not hit the snooze button or you can't not cheat on your diet? You can't not do... You are constructed by the tiny decisions that you make every single day. And even if you think that nobody else is watching and even if no one is, there's this little ticker in the back of your mind when you go to bed, you know, you would, you would gentle with yourself when you got agitated.

1:04:05Right. Good. Yeah. You were kind with the lady that looked like she was tired at Walmart. Mm -hmm. You said something peaceful and encouraging to her. Good. Yeah. But you did these things, right? Did something that makes you feel not so proud about yourself. Right. And, you know, in some ways, it's a great correcting mechanism because there is no hiding from it. And you people turn to alcohol and distraction and aggression and depersonalization in order to deal with the fact that they don't like themselves. Right. But ultimately, you need to live with the decisions that you make, right? To live with you.

1:04:45Right. There is this set of scales inside of your mind that's just balancing things all the time. And if it, you know, you know. Yeah. And people don't know how to like themselves. I mean, people don't know how to like themselves, but it's not complicated. Tell me, how do you like yourself? Find somebody that you like, that you genuinely like. and figure out what it is about them you like. I like that. That's something I like. That person is, uh, their understanding, their gentle, their hardworking, their honest, their, this is, this is what I like about that, and incorporate that stuff into your own life.

1:05:30If that's the stuff you like, then incorporate that stuff into who you are, and then you like yourself. Well, it's not rocket science. You know, there are things that you like as a person that wouldn't mean anything to me. There are things that you like in another person that wouldn't mean anything to me. There's things that I like in another person just because of how I'm wired and it wouldn't mean anything to you. All right. So that is what I like in a person. So if I work at taking on those attributes, it helps me become a person that I like. Lots of benefits of improving VO2 max. What take us through the Norwegian 4x4 again, and then what else is in there if there was a protocol or a number of protocols you were going to design?

1:06:27Here's a program that you can take away today into your gym and do that will help to improve your VO2 max. What would you tell people? I would say the Norwegian 4x4 is by far the best, and you're gonna get the, for the people that are really determined and committed, that would be it. That would be the four minutes of the exercise intensity as hard as you can go and maintain it for that entire four minutes. So obviously - I was thinking to that, what do you mean? It's hard as you can go and maintain it. What does that mean? It means you don't wanna go like all out, like 95 % of your max heart rate because then you can only last for like a minute.

1:07:04So then you're going to go down. You're going to slow down. So what it means is you want to go, for some people it might be like 75 % max heart rate. Some people might be 80%. But you want to go as hard as you can for the four minutes without really slowing down. So you kind of have to pace yourself a little bit, but you don't want to go too slow, right? Like you definitely can't be talking. Like you should not be able to talk for sure when you're doing it. So it's hard enough that you just absolutely can't talk, but it's not all that. So four minutes and then three minutes of totally light, like you're going all the way.

1:07:41This is like, you know, you're like back to like zone one if you want to call it something. If your heart can come down, it's pretty quick. Yeah. And you're doing that for three minutes because you want to give your, you want to and it recovers that you can do it again. And it, and you repeat it, it's a four, it's a four time protocol. So you do it once and then you repeat it three times or you just call it the four by four. I think that's probably one of the best protocols to improve VO2 max. Now, Dr. Martin Gabala, I've had him on my podcast. He's a real expert on these high intestinal well training protocols.

1:08:10He does a lot of research on it at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada. And he also says you, there, you know, there's evidence that a one minute protocol. So like just even doing like an interval like one minute interval and then doing that like you know a few times Also can improve VO2 max So that's a little easier and also it's easier like I like I do one minute intervals I'm trying to now incorporate the four by four into my routine Which is coaches help with that so but it is a motivation thing which is probably one of the biggest hurdles to get over that just if you've got any programming for interview that isn't the Norwegian 4x4 for the day.

1:08:54You go, ah, maybe it's back in biceps. Maybe I'll just go for a little jog. It's like Maniana, Maniana, Maniana. Yeah, it is. But again, like I said, you do have to do, you try to make it consistent. So frequency per week. Well, the Norwegian 4x4 would be like one time a week. Oh, okay. And that's the hard day. That's less, that's the hard day. It is. Okay. Is there any benefit to going twice per week? Probably. Yeah. But it's been so much better. But these 50 year olds, yeah, these 50 year olds did it one time a week for two years, and they reversed their cardiac structure aging by 20 years. Of course, they were also doing other vigorous intensity exercise.

1:09:36It wasn't the torturous Norwegian 4x4. So if Norwegian 4x4 is gold standard at the moment for improving VO2 max, What would be some examples of other vigorous exercise workouts? What else is in that bucket? Well, people can do what they enjoy doing. You can go for a run. I often go for a run and I'm doing 75, 80 % my max heart rate. Usually it's like a 20 minute run that I do that. Intense as you can maintain for 20 minutes. That's what you want to do. You want to get that. You get a feeling for that. So if you like runs because there's a lot of benefits to running your own nature, I guess some people do it on treadmill.

1:10:21I'm not so big on treadmills. Like I'll do them like when I go to a gym or something traveling, but I like running out in nature. I think there's just, there's lots of benefits to doing that. Some people like to get on their bike and cycle. So like you can just get on your bike and do a 20 to 30 minute, 75, 80 % max heart rate cycle, right? So what we're aiming for here is 75 to 80 % max heart rate for around about 20 minute exposure? You can or you can do like a high intensity interval training. So high intensity interval training would be, you're gonna go more than 80%, right? You might go, you're gonna do like more like a sub maximal perhaps, perhaps even a maximal interval.

1:11:03So you can go up to 90, 95 % max heart rate. So that would be, I mean, obviously you can only maintain that for like so long, right? Some people might be 30 second pushes or maybe a minute. Like a tabata, style thing, perhaps. I do a lot of tabatas as well. Oftentimes I like to do something every day, most days of the week, and it's funny, I kind of adopted this routine when I was kind of trying to do a little bit like Joe Robyn's Sober October, but it was like every day October, I was trying to work out every day, and I noticed, I was like, I could do this. I'm doing it for like one month, and I wasn't going as hard as like this guy is doing the Sober October where they were like, competition, it was like they were just, But like if you do something every day so sometimes I'll do like a 10 minute to bata where I get on there And I just go hard for 10 minutes It's 20 you know, I it's most the time.

1:11:52I'll do a 45 second on 15 second off. So it's a 3 to 1 ratio I really like that one, but sometimes I'll do 20 second on 10 10 take it off So it's like I do both but like even just 10 minutes again I time it around like like I got I'm gonna go do work I'm gonna I want to feel motivated. I want to feel better I want to be more focused on all my game and I just get on there for the bike for 10 minutes and do it You know there's there's studies out there These sort of exercise snacks now 10 minutes is longer than an exercise snack But there's studies out there where people are wearing these like wearable devices, right?

1:12:26And so you can track their their heart rate and you can track how how the heart rate's going up And so there's a large large studies. They're called the vigorous intensity lifestyle activity and And most people are taking advantage of everyday life. Like they have stairs every day to work. They sprint up them. They don't walk up them. They sprint. They get their heart rate up to like 75 % max, heart rate, 80 % max, heart rate. They're getting intense. And people that do this anywhere between one to three minutes, a day, I mean, these guys have like a 50 % lower cancer related mortality, cardiovascular related mortality.

1:13:02And this was even true for people that identified themselves as non -exercisers. So they aren't, these are people that are not going to the gym or doing other like tennis or whatever, they don't have leisure time, physical activity. So the benefits were also in people that identified as non -exercisers. So my point is that the vigorous intensity, these like even short bursts of it just consistently like every day a little bit like they do add up, there's additive effects and they make a difference. So that's also I think really something that's very encouraging because some people, oh, I gotta go and work out for 30 minutes.

1:13:35It's like, you need that motivation, right? Like, some people don't have that motivation. And so it's a lot easier to just get up and do something for two minutes. It's hard, but you can do it and you can do it at your house. What, apart from running up and done stairs, what are some other ways that people can incorporate exercise snacks to take advantage of this? Body weight squats are a great one. So you're just doing your squats and you do it for a minute and then rest for whatever 15 seconds and then do another minute. I mean those are hard and they get your heart rate up. So you can do that for like three minutes.

1:14:10That's a really good one and then you're going to be really sore if you're not used to it. But then there's the high knees. So you do high knees. I mean you could do chair squats. You could do plank. The planks, the burpees. Those burpees. So you do like the plank thing and then you come up and jump. And like those are all, I think, really great examples of just like easy ways to do exercise snacks, like even at your desk. And just even breaking up, we're talking about improving cognition, improving mood, breaking up your workday with those. Like it makes a difference on your mood, on your cognition.

1:14:44Like it helps. You're getting blood flow immediately to your brain. So yeah, you were talking, you were telling me about the need for people to break up the the two sedentary for too long to frequently. What's happening there? Yeah, it's interesting. So I never identified myself as sedentary because I've always done something like running or jumping rope or something like going to the gym, something that I'm more emphysically active. So it's like, oh, I'm in the physically active group. I'm not sedentary. Well, it turns out being sedentary is like what we've been for the past couple of hours. We've been sitting here.

1:15:23That is sedentary. So even when you're, or even if you go to the gym or you go for runs, when you are sitting at your desk for a period of hours, you are sedentary. And sedentary being sedentary itself is an independent risk factor for disease like cancer. So now, do I think the marathon runner that also has a desk job where they sit at their desk for eight hours is gonna come down with cancer? Probably not, because they're really putting putting a lot of effort in and they're physically active. But I certainly am not the athlete. I am a committed exerciseer, right? So I'm putting in anywhere between two to five hours of exercise in a week, depending on the week, right?

1:16:11So for me, I spent a lot of time sitting. I spent a lot of time sitting. And so that, to me, was like a big thing. and we're like, oh, that's an independent risk factor for breast cancer, which, you know, a woman's breast cancer risk and just lifetime risk is one in eight. It's incredibly high. And of course, there's lifestyle factors that can sort of increase or decrease that. And just sedentaryism is an independent risk factor for that. So again, it's really, and so easy. So I have started incorporating exercise snacks. I'll get up and I'll start doing some body weight squats. I think that's my go -to.

1:16:45I also like doing burpees. I've been doing some burpees and high knees. I'll do every hour. I think there are a couple of hours. I've also been starting to time them around my meals. So that's another thing. I think being aware of the post -pranial glucose response and how it affects my cognitive function, my mood, and also just knowing that it's healthier. And it's so easy to do. Like just do like two or three minutes of pre -food. You can do it for your post -food, but... Trying to do burpees post -food might be difficult. You can do it up to like an hour after. Right, okay. So one of the things that Dr.

1:17:24Stumigil, the number one back pain specialist on the planet, taught me about forever ago, and then Mark Bell also popularized this 10 minute walk, 50 minute walk post -eating, because insulin sensitivity, because of helping to read just glucose levels within the blood. Also the muscles of the hips and the arms cross across the stomachs actually helps with digestion of food a little bit as well. Like if you've had a really big meal and all you want to do is lie down, actually probably one of the best things that you can do to make yourself feel better is maybe go for a walk. What would you say here?

1:18:00We've got the post meal walking crowd and the post meal burpees crowd. like is this something that you're missing from one of those or are you happy with either? Well, I don't know about the whole arms movement, eating and digestion thing, all that. I do know that the more vigorous intensity when you're actually going to start that feeling that burn, right? When you start to get up to that, okay, I'm making some lactate, that's what's actually increasing the transporters, glucose transporters, they're called glute four. They're in your muscle and they have to like move their way up to the top and lactate is what signals them to do that.

1:18:36So when I'm just thinking about the glucose and proving blood glucose levels, vigorous is better. You're actually chasing that bone. You're chasing the burn. And there's been studies that have that have compared walkers to interval walkers. So these are people that are just walking versus the walk, pick up the pace while they're walking, walk slower, pick up the pace while they're walking. Now they're not running, but they're just interval walking. And it's been shown that interval walking improves a variety of metabolic parameters more than just walking. And again, it makes sense because when you're picking up the pace, you're working harder, you're making lactate, and that's one of the big signals for these glucose transporers to come up to the top of the muscle and let the glucose in.

1:19:22So I do think from a mechanistic understanding, and also data showing walking versus interval walking. Interval walking is better. When you can pick up the pace, when you can go a little bit more intense, it's better. All right. What about becoming muscled for longevity? So that's what I'm working on. You probably don't. I'm not all jacked up, but that's been my new goal, particularly of late, but for the past year, I've become more aware of it. I've spent more time focusing on it. I now have a coach who's great and coming to work with me to focus on that because I feel you know, I'll tell you when it really hit me.

1:20:00I had someone on the podcast, Dr. Mark Madson, and I have admired his work for years. He's like the intermittent fasting king. Like he's, I've known him as research since it was in my 20s, right? Like he's also done a lot of work on Hormesis, and I've just, I followed his work for so much of my scientific career. So it was very cool to have him on the podcast and talk to him. And we were talking all about everything under the sun with respect to fasting and hormises and we started talking about training. And he has been a track runner forever, big, big endurance athlete, mountain biking, everything.

1:20:43And he told me, he said, you know, the one thing that I really regret in my life is that I didn't spend more time building muscle mass. because he had an accident. He had a mountain biking accident and you know, basically couldn't walk around and use his muscles for quite a period of time. And he said it, it really hit him hard. And so that was my first kind of like, oh wow, like I'm always focused on endurance. I never thought I really needed to focus much on muscle. I'm not a bro, like I didn't have that incentive to like, you know, build the muscle. And I knew it was important, but I didn't really, I didn't dive in deep enough and convince myself that it was as important.

1:21:27So that was the first sort of eye opener for me, and then I had Stuart Phillips on, who does a lot of research on resistance training. He's the one that like I helped it, you know, identify that the RDA for protein intake is likely too low. And he has a really good way of explaining, you know, muscle mass and this what's called the disability threshold, which is what I think everyone that has an older parent or grandparent has seen in action where they get older and they experience that take where they're out for whatever a couple of weeks and then all of a sudden of course they can't gain their muscle back and then it happens again and then again and then all of a sudden it just downhill and they can't walk.

1:22:10And the trajectory just plummets and it's just not good. So in order to sort of, you know, not let that disability threshold be so devastating, you really have to build up your muscle mass earlier in life. It actually, it's never too late, but if you can do it earlier in life, it's better. So training -wise, like, I now am, I'm, I'm, I used to just do, I mean, really, it was like 30 minutes a week or so of like resistance training, you know, where I'm just doing dumbbells or something and now I'm doing two hours a week, maybe a little bit more. You say the world opens up when you realize you're never going to sort your life out.

1:22:53What do you mean? I'm glad you brought this up because I think that is in some ways it's like the governing example for a lot of people, maybe just kind of neurotic people like me, I don't know, but of the way in which we try to attain a kind of control over our lives that is not actually open to us as humans. So that sense of like, it takes different forms, right? But it could be, I'm going to get completely organized. I'm going to get so productive that I never need to drop a single ball or fail to meet a demand. Or it's going to be that I'm so talented at what I'm doing that I really feel the confidence of knowing what's going on in work, in relationships, in parenting.

1:23:45There's one that you never feel like you've got to handle on. And I think I'm sort of saying, if you pursue life with this idea that you're going to get to the point where it's all sorted out, you're sort of constantly postponing the meaning of life into the future. You actually end up doing less because there's all sorts of things you feel that you can't really fully get involved in until the point at which you've sorted life out and so in some ways this new book I wrote is kind of like a manifesto for like, okay What happens if we just accept that you're never gonna get life sorted out? Other people it's like the news the world is there's too many crises It's just a really anxious time in the headlines.

1:24:24I want to wait until that's all calm down, right? And it's like what would you what would happen if you abandoned all that and said like no it has to be now, it has to be now that you do interesting and meaningful and important stuff because of this future point of smooth sailing and control is never coming. That's got me thinking about sort of two types of people, there's many types of people but here's two little tax on me. One being the people who have not an external locus of control but the restrictions on why they can't do things are because of something that's happening out there. How can I sort myself while the climate is still such a mess?

1:25:01Or while there's these global conflicts going on, or while we've got this person in power, I don't like it, this person trying to get in power of that, I don't like. And then there's another version of a person who does the exact same thing, but all of their restrictions are inside of themselves. How can I start doing my life while my to -do list is still all over the place? How can I begin to do that when I'm still at 17, 18 % body fat and I don't know what diet I'm going to follow. How can I do this before I... You know, it's the same psychology that many people that listen to this show and the fans of your work probably chastise others for, the externalised locus of control.

1:25:42It's like you have an internalised, externalised locus of control. Yeah, absolutely. and that's really well put. And it's like, if you're waiting, there's something sort of fundamentally absurd for any finite human to sort of wait, to really show up in life, whatever that means to you, until a point at which you have greater sort of, Yeah, like greater control, like you're in the driving seat of the situation. And so yeah, just to put examples on it, I mean, like absolutely one of the things that I get from one portion of people who engage very friendly way, but slightly critically with things I write sometimes or talk about is like, well, it's all very well giving this advice about how to handle too many emails, but the problem is that we live in an economy in a society that puts people in these impossible work situations, you can't just choose to ignore your emails because you have to pay the rent.

1:26:56And that's sort of true, but also you've still got to make decisions about what you're going to show up for as a finite human. And that might involve neglecting so many emails. And then yet on the other side of the equation, and it's like people who are very, very in love with that idea that through any manner of philosophies or personal disciplines or the perfect daily routine, they're going to master life on their own and for themselves, which feels like a more independent way of living. It feels like you're much less, you know, indentured to what political parties empower and at what stage late capitalism is that, but actually it's still sort of giving all the power to like future you who's going to be so great once you've developed all these habits you're going to develop and put in place all the systems and achieve the financial independence and all rest of it.

1:27:55There's a Sartre quote where he says, I have led a toothless life, a toothless life. I have never bitten into anything. I was waiting. I was reserving myself for later on and I have just noticed that my teeth have gone. Amazing. Exactly the point. Gwinda Bogal has a similar idea about deferred happiness syndrome that you sort of, this sentence, it's so common. I remember I used to think this when I spent the summers in between school. So I played cricket growing up like a good British boy and the season obviously really ramps up as soon as you get into summertime, especially as a you cricket player.

1:28:42And I always remember that I would think, well, summer hasn't really started yet and it would be half a week in and then it would be a week and a half in. I think well, summer really hasn't, it still kind of hasn't started yet. And then before I knew it, I was getting ready to go back to school and I was thinking, But it's summer hadn't really started yet. And I think that that is a microcosm for kind of how we see our life. It's this sort of common feeling that your life hasn't yet begun and that the reality you're in at the moment is some sort of prelude to an idyllic future. It's totally right.

1:29:20And I have, you know, obviously I'm writing about stuff and talking about stuff that I am a sort of archetypal sufferer of. for other. Yeah, otherwise it wouldn't be interesting to me. But I think one other sort of point just to get a bit kind of self -referential and meta about it, obviously, is that it is also possible to hear all this. And there are a few books and gurus who talk along these lines and actually become a sort of a different kind of perfectionistic about seizing the moment and being present. Right? I think what we're talking about here, this feeling that real life hasn't quite begun yet is in some sense almost universal and very, very natural because it's a protective mechanism against doing all the feeling and all the realizing that comes from seeing what it really is to be a human, sort of born on the river of time, on route to death, terrifying and I don't think anyone necessarily is sort of fully reconciled to it.

1:30:28So it's not that you can sort of snap your fingers and decide, okay, now I'm just going to show up for my life right now. It's more a question in my experience anyway of getting better and better at seeing what you're up to, you know, seeing what's happening when you get really, really invested in some new like habit change project or some new goal setting technique or something. Not that any of these things are bad, but that if what you're doing is really investing in them because you're on route to the time when life's really going to matter. I think that is a problem. There's a life cycle thing to this too, right?

1:31:03It's like it's a lot easier and more reasonable to think that most of life is coming later when you're 19 and kind of a little bit absurd. I can relate when you're in your 40s, right? It's like that's what middle -life does to a lot of people. It's like, oh, hang on. At a certain point, I can't carry on claiming that real life is going to be... I mean, mid -August, I can't say that summer's not started yet. Right, right. One of the other things, for better or worse, that we're both familiar with, is low mood. What are the things that you do to pull yourself out of a funk, or how would you advise people to bet a deal with depression and anxiety, a low mood.

1:31:52I really think an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure with this. So I try to prophylactically have routines in place that seem to decrease the likelihood, including cold exposure, which for a long time was prescribed for melancholy. Right, this is not new. But like medieval times? Like, 100, 200 years ago. It was a prescription, cold baths for melancholy, aka depression. So this is what is old is now new again. But certainly cold exposure, I would say without a doubt having a consistent, exercise routine and something is better than nothing. like the difference, the zero to one difference between no movement and some movement is black and white.

1:32:41So even if it is just going for a 20 minute walk twice a day, if you have a very packed day, schedule your calls around your walks. Social time, time with friends, which is where I disagree with some of the very strong denouncements of, say, alcohol in the sense that, like, even one drink is terrible for you, that may be true from a strictly biochemical perspective, and I'm not advising you to go out and get shit -faced five nights a week, but, for instance, if one night a week, I pre -schedule a group dinner on a Friday, and I'm going to cook with friends, and that means we drink wine while we're cooking.

1:33:20If that alcohol acts as a super -looper, a social lubricant and helps me connect with my friends, I think there's something to it, right? There are social effects, not just biochemical effects. I don't drink very much, but the group interactions and scheduling those in advance. So on a yearly basis, I will block out, this is very important for me. And again, not obsessing on the daily routine, but thinking about the weekly, which we've discussed, thinking about the annual. So I block out multiple weeks every year to take trips with family and friends. And I have two that I'm organizing right now.

1:34:03These are week long trips. There will be, let's call it, six to ten people in each group. Some will be slightly smaller for wilderness adventures. and those are blocked out for the year in advance. And this is really critical for a few reasons. It's not just about the experience. You have all of the group threads and excitement and training and prep and fantasizing and stupid dick meme jokes that guys swap or whatever, in the WhatsApp groups that lead up to the trip, then you have the trip and then you have all the memories and the shared experiences and the misadventures and the mishaps, that you get so much juice out of these things and those act for me as psychological safety nets.

1:34:52You always have something to look forward to. If you have three or four of these a year. That's in big part the podcast I think for me. I think what both kind of the same with this, that the external accountability of someone being there, there is a time on the calendar. Someone is expecting you to be there. They are a guest. You probably respect them. You probably care about what they think about you. You probably want to perform well for them and also put them in a great light and be a springboard for them and their message because you're interested in what they've got to do. All of those things.

1:35:20It's like, you're not not showing up. I've never once. I've cancelled in my my previous life as a club promoter. I would not show up for events. I would not show up for bits and pieces because I could always sort of work somebody else to go and do a thing. If it was just me that had to do it, but as soon as even one One of the person was involved, or 2000 appearing at a nightclub, I'd be there. And I would be there because there was accountability and there was this expectation. I have never once cancelled a podcast in 750 episodes, six and a half years, due to low mood. No matter how low the mood is, because it gets taken out, it gets eroded away by my excitement to go and do the thing.

1:36:00And the same thing is true with a holiday and the same thing is true with dinner, with a friend, and the same thing. Like, it's the same reason why a training partner just makes so much sense when you can. Like every Saturday, for instance, in Austin, I do the same session with Progressive Overload, the same exercises with the same guy. We've done this for two years. It's one of my favorite days of the week. Saturday morning, I'm full of caffeine. It's shoulders, biceps and triceps starting with calves. Best day of the week. And I love it. And every single Saturday, no matter how shit the week's gone, no matter how bad I'm feeling, if we're available and we're both in the city, we're both going to do it.

1:36:34So let me build on that and say another piece of managing or mitigating or preventing low mood for me is having some identity diversification, which means you're not just doing one thing. If you have your podcast, your startup, your job as the sole barometer of your self -worth, there are so many factors outside of your control or your investment portfolio, whatever it might be. If you were solely fixated on one thing, you're too vulnerable to black swan events or simply ups and downs due to variables that are outside of your control. So in contrast, if you have your Saturday workout or you have your deadlift, you have rock clut, you have archery of whatever might be in addition to your primary work, in addition to drawing in addition to your relationship that you're trying to cultivate and deepen.

1:37:24And if any one of those things is down, just like in a stock portfolio, if they're somewhat uncorrelated, you can still have a good week. If you have a terrible week, but then you hit a PR and you're Saturday workout, we did it, baby. We did it. Yeah. Pass. You're hedging your identity, you're hedging your sort of existential investment. Yeah, exactly. And that is very, very, very important. that I have multiple tracks running at the same time. So that if one hits a roadblock, that it's not just an existential spiral. Do you have a like break glass in case of impending low mood protocol? Something you just start to see the early warning signs is there a, okay, I need to pull the pen with these things.

1:38:18Yeah, I would say I would say one I'll give some that are perhaps More easily within reach of of most people and easier to recommend Honestly group dinners Three to four friends group dinners long group dinners. No alcohol if I see low mood coming then no alcohol Because of the next day. Yeah, you're borrowing happiness from tomorrow as and there isn't much once There isn't gonna be much someone put it to me and if you compromise your sleep sleep. For me, generally low mood, if we want to call it depression, does not actually, it's not a first cause. For me, I would say it's typically some type of anxious rumination, worrying about something.

1:38:58I compromise my sleep because I've on set in Somnia. Then I consume too much caffeine, which further compromises my sleep. And then after three or four days, that's when the low mood slash depressive symptoms show up. So anything that compromises sleep, I try to avoid in that period. For all of me saying that people struggle to connect with their emotions, a lot of people listening to this show will be familiar with the cerebral horsepower, praying at the sort of altar of cognition thing. But there's also still a bunch of emotions that are just kind of less exciting and more dour that everybody is familiar with, anxiety.

1:39:37You know, this sort of ambient sense of a little bit of fear that's going on. It's not full fear, it's not gripping you, but it's anxiety, worry, concern, insufficiency, shame. So, we're connecting with some emotions, one subset of them. Is there a way, are you thinking about how they get alchemized or moved around? Is there a way that you think about this? Yeah, so, yeah, so if I think about emotional development, the end of emotional, not end, but like kind of like the more mature areas of emotional development is like all those feelings. They become hard to distinguish between the two or between any of them.

1:40:17And so that's an interesting piece to it. The other interesting piece is that a lot of what's happening is repressed emotions. So somebody has like chronic anxiety. Like I worked with people say with OCD and oftentimes there's an event that started the OCD where they felt deeply out of control over a situation and unsupported, out of control and unsupported. If they can go and feel and they couldn't feel it at the time, it was not possible to feel because mom was dying, dad was dying, blah, blah, blah, something the parents were violent, whatever, there was some way they could not feel. If we can go back and feel that emotion that didn't get felt that OCD starts dissipating as an example.

1:41:01I know people like oftentimes people super depressed, not super, like not, not depressed like where they're having visions, but could like a dystamiya level of depression where the negative self -talk is through the roof. If they really can feel the anger and that they weren't allowed to feel as kids that all went in words towards themselves, that depression starts subsiding. So oftentimes the emotional, those little emotions that we're living with every day, that aren't joy is because an emotion is stuck. Because there's an emotion that wasn't welcome and so joy can't hang out there. When all the emotions are welcome, if we can go back and feel those feelings, it would not allow to be felt.

1:41:41And we can welcome them. That's like the welcoming of abandonment, then the patterns change and then we can feel the joy. And that joy can be scary. I have not seen one person when And that joy first fucking shows up that it's not scary for them. Because it's just alien. It's fucking big man. Joy is like, it's just big. We know ourselves by our contrast. We know ourselves by what we compare ourselves to. And enjoy the comparison, the contrast starts going away. And so it's like, you become like a speck of dust in the notion of joy. when it's really old. Yeah, it's a very unmooring feeling.

1:42:30It's deep levels of joy. Yeah. It sounds great. Again, people can use their intellect and rationality as I am right now to go sounds fantastic. Feel feelings. Yeah, understood. Go back and hear the thing. But, you know, this, what does it look like. What does integrating emotions embracing them, feeling feelings? What does the process of going from cerebral performative autists to actual fully integrated human look like? Yeah. So, yeah, so there's different levels depending on where exactly it got stuck. So So, if you are, so we have a tool called emotional inquiry, which is basically like you think about you're, if you're like a little kid and you pick up a, a, um, frog, you're like, what the hell is going on here?

1:43:28And you're like kind of really investigating it. You're investigating your emotional experience with that same, with that same, um, level of wonder. So, it's just this guided audio that we have. and we have a course in the decisions course because it's all about emotional understanding because that's what clarifies decision making. We ask people to do that once or twice a day. The transformation is like... Why can people go if they want to pick up this course? Well, the course is called... Art of accomplishment is the course I think we have a site for you called View .life, Modern Wisdom, Slash Modern Wisdom, but...

1:44:07It'll be in the links. I'll find it. I'll get it off you and I'll put it in the link. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's called the great decisions course. But that emotional inquiry thing we have for free, you can, there's we have it a podcast where you can look at and it tells you how to use it and then you can go and download it. So that's all free. And but the emotional, so emotional inquiry is one way to do it. Expression is really, really good and very critical to actually express your emotion. So for instance, when people think about expressing an anger, it's such a weird thing. They're so scared of it that whenever we're scared, we think about things in a binary way.

1:44:40It's like this way or that way. So they're so scared of anger typically. It's like, I'm either going to hold my anger back or I'm going to get angry at somebody. And they never think, oh, I can just get angry and not at anybody. I can just like move my anger and not not get angry at anybody and not do it at somebody meaning that they're, you're getting the angry at somebody, but they're not in the room. They're not feeling that they don't have to know about it. And so, so you can actually just express the emotions that you have. And if you You can't figure out how to express them, then you can fake it till you make it.

1:45:10It's a very slow way to do it. We have things in our courses that take you through it, but that we can't get for free, because we want to make sure we're monitoring people as they go through it. So that's another thing that it looks like. The other thing that it looks like is there's this thing that happens where your gut tightens and I don't want to feel that and you push it away. So my example of this is like we got kicked out of a house at some point when our second was very young and every time I drove by the house which I had to do on a weekly basis I would feel like this punch in my gut.

1:45:46Like, pop back. And I was like, oh, so I started driving by the house and I'd sit there and I'd just feel the fuck out of that feeling like, what is that? What's going on? And so there's that other thing when you feel that thing our immediate movement is like, like, oh, let's, let me move away from that. It's like, no, let's actually attend to that. Let's actually feel what that is. Just talk to me. I think that's a really lovely cue that people can probably quite quickly pick up on. Just take me through that step by step that someone has just like the echo of a sensation that they're continues to come up when they see a person or whatever a situation that they're in.

1:46:27Just walk me through. You feel that tension in you. So what What are you looking for in the body, in the mind? What are your stuff? Yeah, it's fantastic. So everybody will do it a little differently. I was so cerebral when I started doing this. I noticed the mental reactions to fear before I actually knew what it felt like in the body. But there's some great research that actually shows through heat maps that there's very similar physical experiences we have with different emotions. Generally, the way that I think about it is, or the way that I talk about it is, is that Emotions are held in the muscles.

1:47:00So if I look at somebody, I can tell you pretty quickly and it's like when I coach people people go, how do you do that? So just by looking at somebody's face or whatever, I can tell what emotions are being held. So I go, that's the critical parent hunch or that's the repressed anger, line in the eye or whatever it is. So you can see how people are holding their emotional experience. So it's all held in the muscles. So there's a physical sensation that comes along with an emotional experience. And the job is to get really curious about it. Why am I avoiding that? So like if you're lifting weights and you feel that burn and you try to avoid it, you're not going to lift weights for as long as if you're like, oh, how do I really get into that burn?

1:47:41This is the exact same experience. So you get that cook and you go, okay, how big is that? How round is it? How thick is that? How dense is it? How is it moving? Like, what's going on here? And so you just put your attention on the somatic experience of the emotion that's happening. So that's like the most basic. That's like the most basic way to start getting into it. At some point, the expression is really necessary because you can't unhold the emotion, like the musculature holding can't happen until you've actually done some expression. So we do this like week -long workshop. It's like, it's off records.

1:48:25It's very hard to get it. We only do like 36 people a year and it's in groups of 12. And they call it like, people feel like they've had a facelift. They literally, you can take shots before and after and their face looks different because the emotional holding has changed. And so I only coach people who've been through that experience because when they've been through experience, I don't have to justify emotional awareness. They know it. They know the benefits of it. They've seen the other side of it. And so that's another thing. But expression is really important at some point. And if you're expressing fear, really important to have that with loving attention, to not do that alone.

1:49:06When you talk about expressing, what do you mean? So anger expresses usually with like a lot of yell, anger, moving particularly of the chest. The, so it's, you know, like it's because it's closed. The held anger is held in shame. And so the opening of the chest is a really important part of the expression of it. Similarly, fear is done with shaking. So if you look at a deer that just has been captured by a mountain line and then escapes, they do this like shake off thing. you can notice that like horses are kind of doing it dogs are kind of doing it consistently like they're getting that like low -level anxiety off of their system on a regular basis.

1:49:51So, shrieking and shaking is a big part of the of the fear release process. Sadness and grief, different sadness is tears with a lot of gut shaking, but the but grief is can like usually flows from all three. If you're like in a full grief reliefs, I was in this funeral, for instance, with my friend who had passed and everybody was like sad and sad and sad. And you could just feel like the energy was not, it was stagnant. It was like, he wasn't actually fully being grieved. And I was like, I'm fucking pissed. And I got really angry. And then other people got angry. And then like, you could see so much move, so much of the grief moved.

1:50:31And if you look at those kind of indigenous grief rituals, anger is often a part of it. You know, it's not just sobbing. It's like, oh, that's like hitting the wall. There's like a, there's another part of it. So grief is like some sadness with some fear and some, and some anger. But this is expressing it. It doesn't necessarily need to be to a person. If you're angry, does it need to be to the person that you're angry at? No, no, no. Definitely not. I would highly recommend not angry at somebody else is an emotional abuse. It's like it's it's it's saying I'm going to try to control you with my anger.

1:51:09It's horrible Unless you have permission So there would be moments like with Taren. I'm like I really would like to express a manger you know And she'll give me permission or not but the but like with the kids as an example with the kids so I'm Making my Sunday pancakes the kids are you know knowing, oh, this is the time when dad is most focused. And so we're gonna ask him like 20 questions and get in a fight, you know, like the whole thing. And I'm like, oh, and it's like perfect timing and I stop everything. I jump up and down. I'm like, I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry. And my eight year old looks at me.

1:51:45She goes, that was some pretty good anger, dad. Cause she knew that I wasn't angry at her. Like I wasn't, I was angry, but I don't need to put it on her. I can just move that anger and then get back to. to being a good parent. And she wasn't scared of it. It wasn't like I was a 200 pound man who was yelling at a two foot tall kid or three foot tall kid or whatever. How do you think about this relationship between brain and emotions and body and moving out of and between those? Is there a hierarchy? Is there an interplay? Is there a... They're all part of the same system. I make the distinction between head, heart, and gut and transformation just because it's a good way to figure out if you're holistically achieving it or not.

1:52:37But I haven't found anything that makes it so that you're, it's better to do one than the other first or anything like that. What I notice is that people who are more one way are going to start there. I was more head related. I thought everything in my head, because of the emotional abuse, I was high in my head. That's where I started. People were dancers who are deeply in their body. The somatic work is usually the first thing that they're going to go to, but they're going to believe their stories for a lot longer than I did. It's where you're inclination is. People playing to the strengths almost.

1:53:18Typically. It's where they get the lace bang for the buck, but it's usually high. Yeah, as you said, you're going from 100 to 101 as opposed to zero to one. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The closest thing is luxury beliefs. Oh, dude, tell. So a friend Rob Henderson's repopularized this. It's not his original invention, but he says luxury beliefs are beliefs held by the upper classes that bestow status on them, but in her costs on people of... Oh, that's good. Yeah. So D from the police is a perfect example of this. Another one that's kind of obvious is two -parent households have no advantage or getting married has no advantage for raising a child.

1:54:00So you look at the number of college graduates and people in the upper echelon society, almost all of them are married in monogamous relationships with a classic nuclear family setup. And the lower classes that may believe this particular narrative that's pushed by them are the ones that suffer. In the same way as you, behind your gated community, tweeting, yeah, we really need to, but you know, these police are racist and they shouldn't be there and all the rest of it. It's like, yeah, but you're not a black guy from inner city, Chicago. Yeah, exactly. I know, and it looks good on paper. Like, I saw in California, they're doing a thing where they're lowering test standards for black kids because they're having trouble in school.

1:54:37And I'm like, I guess that's nice because moral pass, but you're fucking them in the future. Like, isn't that way worse? There's a huge problem in Illinois at the moment in the schooling system. some huge percentage of kids can't read at grade level. And then they finish high school and they get out and it's just there's nothing there. They finish like K through 12. They've, matthiability is way behind where they should be reading comprehension, is way behind where they should be. Do you think, what are you learning? I know. You're doing. I know. It's scary. Are you following the role in Friar?

1:55:11No. Oh, this is right up your anal baby. This is Chris all day long. I don't want to get too much into it, but he's a Harvard guy, a Harvard professor, very like the youngest black professor at Harvard to get tenure or whatever you call it. I don't know. Brilliant guy. From the hood, black guy made it to Harvard, did it, wrote a bunch of books, esteemed, everybody loves them. He started doing studies on police in black, you know, crime and all that, and he came out with a study that There's actually way less black death from police than we think and they're not actually going after black people as much as we think they are This is his study.

1:55:54He couldn't believe the numbers because of you know because what we've been hearing for years and years So he did it he did it for a year with eight interns working under him He couldn't believe the numbers. So he said let's do another year and do it again with eight different people just to make sure we got it And it came out the same way and everybody at Harvard's like don't put this out It'll ruin you. What she goes back to what I was saying about how I'm okay with the bullshit, but at least let me acknowledge it They don't even want you to acknowledge it, you know, so he's like I'm putting this out.

1:56:23This is data It's facts. It's like it doesn't look good. Don't put it out. They tried to get him fire They tried to ruin him. They tried to meet to him. They tried all these things. He beat everything and he put it out And now he has an armed guard with him all day long because he's getting death threats So he's got his kid at the grocery store with a fucking security guard And the irony of like, hey, I'm just saying it's not as bad out there for Blackpules we think to saying that to now needing protection from a cop. I mean, the whole thing's wacky and I'm not saying he's right or wrong, folks.

1:56:53Don't come after me. I'm just saying this is happening in America right now and it's fascinating. That's wild. I've got a friend, Carol Huvon, who wrote a book about testosterone and she, when she did Rogan show, she cried. I think four times. Whoa. When she did my show, she cried at least three times. We went for breakfast in Austin. I think she cried twice at breakfast. She's just a very emotional lady. You know, and it's in joy and sadness and stuff too. And like, she'll start talking about her son and immediately start welling on her. She loves her son. Anyway, she talks about biological differences between men and women, spicy.

1:57:35She was at Harvard. But she had, I think it was one of the most popular courses of undergraduates in psychology. I think it's like some insane number. It might have been 500 people that attended this particular course that she did, really interesting course. And after she did the Rogan thing and then the book came out and then she maybe posted a couple of things as well. None of her teaching assistants were prepared to work with her. So these are post grads usually doing a PhD or something and they'll be part of some lab, but you need your TAs, you need the teaching assistants to its an ass. Because sorry, sorry.

1:58:15TAs, I'm listening. You need that to help you because it's a huge class and working work and they kind of assist during the lecturing I've got a few friends in Austin who work as TAs for their professors, the head of their labs and shit. And that's like soft cancel. She was being pushed out. Yeah. How can you do your course if no one will work with you? Of course. And then there wasn't backup from the dean and there wasn't the rest of it. And she's out now. She's out being pushed out. I'm pretty sure she had tenure at this, which is supposed to be the protection that you need. And then she was part of this Bill Ackman thing, you know, where he called out Claudeine Gay.

1:58:54Oh, right. We're gonna start a couple of months ago. But the weird thing there, and I spoke to her about this, because she was basically used as a very fortunate political football to be kicked around. See how perfect this is, shows that the woke Marba trying to push people out to say things that aren't egregious and no one, this is something I haven't really thought of before, no one considered what she wanted as a part of this. So she's already lost her job. Good point. But just because she's a very, same with Shane, like Shane strikes me as a large, ruddy robust guy. Yeah. And you using him as an example of somebody who went through difficulty with SNL to then sort of come out the other side of it.

1:59:36I don't, I don't feel that he's taking that as, oh, you know, you've re -triggered my PTSD from this awful incident that occurred to me five years ago. He just tried, but the woman that cried five times on a podcast maybe does. Yeah. Right? This is, you know, again, do we care about people's feelings or not? Yes. It just comes back to trying to give people a bit more grace. Yes, there you go. It's, we shouldn't be boiled down to this one tweet or one thing we said or one joke we made or one thing this lady did, you know, but that's what we do. And I think we have negativity bias. So we go, this is the thing, fuck you.

2:00:14And you're like, what about all the good I did? And they're like, ah, forget about that. Forget about it. Shane actually has a great sketch on a, ah, the fucking lounge. What do you think he's in? The lounge, it's horrible food. So Shane is a great sketch where he's a fireman. He saved a bunch of people's lives and then the guys like wow Did you just save that whole burning building? You know the babies the women everything. Yeah, yeah, that was me and he goes Looks like I found some tweets from Last year and he says this this and then you know it's gay and whatever and he's like, oh, yeah Why are you pulling that up?

2:00:43He's like dude? What are you doing to me? And it's a nice. It's kind of a nice Microcard what's going on like this gotchish yet? But the guy just saved a building full of people. So that's not good enough. Sorry, not good enough. Yeah. But I feel like, are we talking about this too much? I'm worried that I don't know. I know at all. So I've got something I want to teach you about. Okay. Women are loving men who embrace baby girl vibe and ditch toxic masculinity. Delving into a new trend of baby girl, following Jacob Allordi, Timothy Shalame, Pedro Pascal and more. This includes men carrying purses, wearing shorts and sequins, an embracingly, traditionally feminine aspect.

2:01:20A man who's a baby girl comes across his sweet charming, a bit bashful and seemingly in touch with their feminine side, ready to talk about their feelings or carry a purse to brunch at any point. heterosexual women, especially gen Z, are rusting, which means romanticizing and lusting. I thought rusting might mean something else. After men that they consider to be baby girl, this trend signals a sharp departure from the ubermasculine sex symbols of previous generations. The lady explained to the post and men outside the limelight are taking note. I think the definition of what is masculine is changing.

2:01:51The director of talkify, matchmaking service told the post. Some traditional masculine norms are shifting. Masculinity today is not about being a tough guy, but about being honest, respectful, protective, and emotionally expressive. About 31 % of American men have actively changed their behavior to become more vulnerable and open with people they are dating according to Bumble's 2024 Dating Trends report. Well, I think this is nothing new. You know, like, like Mick Jagger, David Bowie, they all went through this, like, what do you call that when you're kind of feminine and masculine? Androgynous.

2:02:23Androgynous. Androgynous. Like, I think this is, you know, in the 60s, guys grew their hair long and every dad was like, you fucking homo, look at these, you get a haircut, pussy. And I think that was crazy then, you know, having long hair or tight pants or whatever. So I think it's just this, just another swing of this and masculinity is the norm. So we got to go against the norm. And then eventually baby girl, whatever will be the norm and then being masculine will be weird. So that'll be in. So I think it just it all just flip everyone's watch is by whatever looks novel. Yes. Hey, that's a better way to concise way to say it.

2:02:58I've been mean my house may have been thinking a lot about things that a bitch that you don't realize Very one, very bitch. Stopped bicycle. Oh, yeah, that kind of awkward. Yeah, I got one. You know, when you close the door and it doesn't close the car door, and it doesn't latch all the way, and you gotta give it that booty bump. I hate the booty bump, but you gotta do it. These are great. This could be like a TikTok running series. Wearing as a man, wearing a towel wrapped around your upper chest, rather than wrapped around your waist. Oh, I got another one. You know, standing like this is very masculine, but if you just rotate it like that, it's so much gayer.

2:03:47What is that? Well, it's just the same hand, same hip, but if you flip it, you look so much more feminine. Doing that thing when you wash your hands. Oh, yeah. The finger from behind. That's pretty, that's pretty bitch. Turning it, he has Zach has one which is turning around ever. So if you walk past the entrance to somewhere, you're going around the block and coming back in because if you go And then turn around. Yeah, that's pretty bitch. That's good. He had one at dinner the other evening Which we were sat outside and the receipt blew off the front of the table and we've been talking about things that a bitch that you don't realize a bitch for Six months now.

2:04:26This is gold. We've accumulated this huge big long list of love I could go for the rest of the podcast and I was watching it and we hadn't come up with chasing a receipt blown in the wind. Uh -huh. And I was watching it happen and sure enough, the wind picked up and he sort of, you know, you bend over and you, that and then it goes away again. And I was, and he came back over and he went, this is adding, this is being added to the list, isn't it? That's a great one. It's getting added to the list. I would say applying chapstick can be pretty bad. Getting a banana. Banana classic. Oh, a heavy door.

2:04:54You ever have a door where you're like, ah, it takes all the manly confidence out of you when the door's too heavy. Sleeping in a blanket with your arms all the way under as opposed to having your arms out. Oh, interesting. I think that's pretty bitch. Holding a coffee mug with both hands. Yes, that's a great one. Massively bitch. My wife, she says, if I see a guy with flip flops, live a gin, I just, just sown up like the those ones. The tongue. It's the idea of that thing between the toe. That really freaks her out. She's like, it slides, I'll do a slide. But the tongue is what gets you. Which is interesting because Crocs are obviously the most sexually arousing type of footwear that are available.

2:05:39You know what my favorite thing about Crocs are? That flap, that little ankle holder. If you put that up, it's called sport mode. Which to me is like, what are we getting? No, this is that, that, that, that, that, that. When sport, what are you gonna go run a mile with that? You're gonna play football. Someone's, there is a Croc marathon. Come on record really yep there's a crock mile and there's a crock marathon record people can go and look this on look this up online I will yeah, I'm sure it's a elite athlete