#899 - Sahil Bloom - The Harsh Truth About Money & Happiness

24:55and inevitably those things go to shit and it ends up being bad. But you're allowing your head to outsmart your gut. And so I think that just tuning into that more regularly, learning to just listen to that initial gut instinct on something, the energy and what it tells you is a great razor for life with people, with business deals, with financial decisions, with all of this. So yes, but more so when you have more experience. Because again, in the first instance, if you're 20, What do you, I mean, unless you've had very experiential teens, what the fuck are you listening to? What experience are you drawing on here?

25:34That is where you would look at it and maybe call it impulsivity, sort of irrationality, emotionality. You're not being driven by making logical decisions. But yet, as you start to accumulate some battle scars and some experience and some decades under your belt, I think that's what I'm saying. when you can't. But again, this is periods of your life, seasons of your life, right? The tools that got you here won't get you there. And one of the tools that got you here was being very deliberate, very thought through, very top down. You're like dictating to the rest of your body. This is what you're going to do.

26:09You're going to push hard. You're going to train more. You're going to et cetera. And after a while, you go, hey, body's saying it needs to take a rest. And the last time this happened, and I didn't listen to it, that That was when I injured my knee. That was when that, I got burned out. That was when I got sick and fucking got norovirus at New York Athletic Club. I think again, one of those periods where the tools need to change. Are you familiar with the concept of winner's game versus losers game? No, this is one of my favorite ideas for life. So this originates from tennis where amateur tennis is a loser's game, meaning you win by avoiding unforced errors.

26:4980 % of points are lost on unforced errors. Professional tennis is a winners game, meaning you win by hitting magnificent shots by hitting perfect elegant shots. It is extremely important in life to know what type of game you are playing. And the reality is that most games of life are losers games. You win by simply avoiding unforced errors, by showing up over and over and over again with reliability by doing what you say you're going to do by showing up and doing the boring basics. But the challenge in life is identifying when the game changed. Because if you keep trying to play an amateur tennis, losers game, but now you're playing professionally, you're gonna get smoked because you're gonna be trying to play like a backboard.

27:35You're gonna be trying to avoid unforeseen errors while the other person is just killing you with incredible shots. And so understanding when the game has changed in your own life is really important. Like early in your life, saying yes to every single opportunity you get is a great game to play. Because it's what allows you to invest your time to gain the experience to start building that gut instinct, to start building your understanding of it. But suddenly the game changes. And if you keep saying yes to everything, you burn yourself out. You take on dumb opportunities. You're wasting all of your time and energy on stupid 1X time for money trades.

28:10when you should be focusing on the elegant magnificent shots that are going to generate the 10x -100x outcomes in your life. Have you got any idea about how people can recognize when that's happening to them? I think you start to see that the early investments in your networks and in your sort of opportunity sets are compounding. Like what you start to feel is more interesting opportunities are coming to you at an accelerating exponential rate. And when you see that start to happen, you need to take a pause in your life to recognize what you start, what you need to start saying no to to open up the space to pursue those big ones.

28:55It's like ventilating your life. You need to breathe space into your life so that you actually have the bandwidth to take on those big opportunities. I often think that But one of the greatest skills and one of the most common traits of the most successful people I've ever spent time around is that they have the highest tolerance for uncertainty. They are actually willing to tolerate uncertainty for long periods of time. They are willing to be static for long periods of time. Give me an example. Tim Cook when he left IBM to take a job at ComPAC. Like, people don't know this, don't think about his early part of his career all that much.

29:34But he spent the early part of his career rising through the ranks at IBM. He was in there like, you know, executive management program, big company, you know, rising through the ranks at this big company. But one of, yeah, one of them wouldn't let me say a number of fucking people. Exactly. And Steve Jobs was recruiting for a role at Apple and saw Tim's resume. And looked at it and was like a big company guy, probably not a fit for Apple and their more startup culture. And so passed on it. Six months later, he saw, he was still recruiting for that role and saw the resume again. And at that point, Tim had left IBM in the like safe track he was on to take this job at Compact, which was this small computer startup at the time.

30:19And at that point, Steve then had this like pattern interrupt about the type of person that Tim was. all of a sudden he was like this guy that had taken on something very uncertain. He had done something very different. So decided to have a conversation with him. Obviously, now you fast forward 20 plus years and trillions of dollars of value that Tim has created at Apple. And it's this enormous case study to me of someone who was willing to tolerate some uncertainty of doing something different. It didn't make sense. It was a pattern interrupted in his life that sparked this enormous chain of dots that were connected out into the future.

30:54I have a friend who worked for a big recruitment company for a while here in Austin and they place very, very high -level tech execs around the world. And it meant that he was able to have access to some of the first and second -round interviews that they did with the best candidates on the planet and Tim Cook was one of them. Susanna was Jiki, Jekki was another one of them too. And I was asking him this question and they're saying, hey man, so what's the difference between, you know, these people that go onto and obscene packages and then the best in the world, the people that lead the, you know, Futsi 100 companies.

31:30And he said, well, I can tell you what, the first line of, the first word of Tim Cook's summary was, remember these people, they spend their time trying to find holes, trying to pick holes and what is it, the psychographic profile, what is it to do with that childhood that's coming up. What is it to do with that work ethic? Well, they've gotten an inability to deal with criticism or they're too concerned about the opinions of others or whatever it might be. And the first word, the top of the summary of Tim Cook just said rock star, full stop. You know, in a sea of the best candidates on the planet, there is still a step difference between everybody and then the best.

32:09Yeah, I thought that was so cool. Super cool. and completely consistent with my own experience. I mean, I've been very lucky to spend a lot of time with Tim over the years. He's been sort of a mentor and friend to me for the last 10 years. I originally met him in 2014. He was the relatively new CEO at the time. And the way that I met him was because he was working out at the gym at 4 .45 every single morning before going into the office. He would wake up at 3 .45 and send off emails, be working, doing things, get to the gym at 4 .45, I've worked out, he was probably getting into the office by 615.

32:43Before any of his employees were probably even awake. And you think about that and think about the fact that you are the CEO of one of the largest companies in the world and you are still doing that. You are literally on a daily basis, like meat and potatoes, behavior and actions. And then it becomes no surprise that someone like that has been able to do and achieve the things that he's done. I mean, a laser intensity and focus on the things that matter. Have you ever heard Dana White talk about what it's like being friends with Donald Trump? Now, dude, it's wild. Dana says Trump will come to one of the USC events and he'll watch.

33:25You know, he rocks up toward the beginning of the main card and he'll walk out with him and he'll do that and fucking kid rocks with him or whoever Elon jumping about in the background. And then he'll watch the fights and he'll shake the hands and do the thing and he'll leave. And then Dana will be on the way home and he'll get a call from Trump because he wants to talk about the fights and he wants to discuss stuff and then they'll get onto something else. He'll go to bed and by the time that Dana, Dana is a guy to me that seems very, very high energy, by the time that Dana's gone to bed and got back up, Trump's already on his flight and he'll have messages from him about shit that they spoke about the night before And I don't know man, it doesn't matter whether you like him or not, whether you agree with his politics or not.

34:09For a guy that's 78, 79, something like that, that's fucking terrifying. I don't know, none of my friends in our 30s are able to do that. And uh, yeah, that's when you realize that there are builds to people that are kind of inevitable. Peterson's got this line about um, like conscientious people are crazy. If you put them in a abandoned forest with an axe that just running around chopping down trees for no reason. And yeah, that's the kind of Tim Cook, like Trump energy, like just chopping trees. Yeah, there's levels to this shit. I always think that. Like sometimes you just encounter someone and you just realize there's levels to these games.

34:47And I have always thought that like if you were working for someone like that, you just have to know from the get go that you are never going to outwork your boss. And there's something about that, like being that type of person that just sends a signal to the world through your actions. You got to keep in mind, like, Tim doesn't ever, I mean, it very rarely does. Interviews very rarely, you know, speaks publicly about his habits or his routines. It's not like, you know, he's not, you know, you're not a thread boy, you know, like on Twitter being like, here's my morning routine, doing things. And it's just his actions and you know what he's doing on a daily basis through the output.

35:24And we lose sight of that, right? Like, no one cares about your deep work ritual or your morning routine if your output is shit. No one cares. And at the end of the day, your deep work routine and your morning routine may get you social media likes, but your quality and quantity of your output is what gets you paid. A quick note, I partnered with function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, function run lab tests that monitor over a hundred biomarkers, and then they've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan.

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36:42That's functionhealth .com slash modern wisdom. For people whose primary job is not talking about what they do on social media or creating content or writing or doing whatever videos about it, I always think if you're talking that much about what you do, how the fuck do you have time to do what you say you do? It blows my mind, you know, productivity, business, corporate gurus, that seemed to have an unbelievable amount of spare capacity to do Instagram stories and to talk to him. I, when you ever actually fucking working, because it's my job to make content, and I don't have time to do that much stuff.

37:19And also very little desire to do it as well, which kind of makes me skeptical about whether you can do the things that you say you can do, or whether you can only say that you can do the things that you say that you do. Yeah, it is like, it's the meme of social media in general around these things. Like the other day, I someone posted about starting to wake up earlier in the new year. And I commented on it and just said that for the first six years of my career, I woke up at 3 .45 every single morning. And that was because I was working in finance, I was working an 80 to 100 hour a week job where I wanted to be really successful at it.

37:56And if I wanted to work out before going to the office, I'd be there at 6 .30, I had to wake up and go to the gym and do that. And I did it for six years. And I still wake up at 4 or 4 or 15 in the morning because those early morning hours are sacred to me. And someone replied, I sort of posted my daily routine and how many hours I was at the office. And someone replied, this is from what a decade ago something. Yeah, this is from 2014 to 2020 before COVID. And someone commented, was like how many of your 14 hours at work were deep work? And I replied, semi -seriously, actually quite seriously, I don't even know what that means.

38:31Like, I don't know what deep work means. I just had to get a lot of shit done. There was no like ritual. I wasn't like sitting down with some perfect, you know, coffee, ritual. I just had to do a lot of work. I just had to get a lot of shit done. And if I had been worried about my deep work routine, or if I had been worried about like needing to cold plunge before doing that, frankly, and this is coming from a guy that I am into stuff like that, I just, I wouldn't have been able to get things done. And so if you're focusing on all those things, rather than just focusing on creating incredible output, quality and quantity, you're just studying for the wrong tests.

39:05Yeah, I brought it up with George over Christmas again, probably one of the favorite, my favorite things I learned from him last year. I think to Michael Grove quote that says there are so many people working so hard and achieving so little. And yeah, look, I come from a productivity background when I first started the show, I was chatting, shared about Pomodoro timers and notion external brains and and Ebbinghaus forgetting curves and all of that, right? I've been through the ringer, which is why I'm allowed to say it. And you realize after a while that it ends up being this weird superstitious rain dance you're doing, this sort of odd sort of productivity rain dance in the desperate hope that later that day you're going to get something to, and some of that stuff does really help.

39:47And you kind of need to go through this process of, ah, right, wasn't the 15 pushups before I do my calls. Oh, it wasn't, it was this thing. That's the highest point of leverage, and I get rid of everything else. And that's the highest point of leverage, and I get rid of everything else. You create the very, very high leverage points for each of those individually. But we're talking about time. What do you think is the big question that people have when it comes to time wealth? If the two things that people probably realize that they need most in life is some form of money and time when they're thinking about at least objective metrics, why do we struggle so much to use our time effectively?

40:26What's it slip through our fingers? The lack of awareness of time as you are most important asset and your most valuable asset is the most damning problem that people face. I often ask young people, would you trade lives with Warren Buffett? He's worth $130 billion. He has access to anybody in the world. He reads and learns for a living. He flies around on private jets and stays in mansions all around the world. But you wouldn't trade lives with him because he's 95 years old. There's no way you would agree to trade the amount of time you have for the amount of time he has even for $130 billion and so you simultaneously acknowledge Subconsciously that your time has Incalculable value.

41:12It's worth more than $130 billion and yet you take actions on a daily basis That spit on that you disregard it you spend time on low -value stupid activities You sit on your phone scrolling around doing nonsense sense, you don't focus on the things that really matter. You move around like a rocking horse, right? You're like rocking back and forth, but never going anywhere. And so really recognizing that time is the most important asset. It's not any of these other things. And the way that you invest and spend your time is the most meaningful decision that you're going to make in your life. That is the first step to unlocking any level of time wealth.

41:47How do you come to teach people about this? What is it? you got somebody who for the first time is beginning to think about that time. You're like, huh, there's some ways that we can audit how you're spending your own. I think I offer this in the book, this idea of the energy calendar. So at the end of a work day, look at your calendar and color code activities from the day, according to whether they created energy, meaning you felt good during and after them. They were neutral, mark them yellow, or they were energy draining. you didn't feel good marked them red. So it's green, yellow, red. At the end of a week, if you do that for a week, you have a very clear sense of the types of activities you are spending time on that are conducive to your energy, that means you're feeling good from them, or that are draining, that are like killing you in whatever way.

42:37If you can slowly work toward a world where that calendar looks more green than red, you are going to feel significantly better, and as a result, you're going to create significantly better outputs. We all know that the activities that are pulling us that we feel drawn towards are the ones where we produce the best outputs, where we produce those like 10, 100X outcomes that actually meaningfully change our lives. You wouldn't do three podcasts a week for the last however many years if you weren't drawn to having conversations with people. I wouldn't have written two newsletters a week for the last three, four years if I wasn't drawn to writing about these problems.

43:10You can't fake things over long periods of time. So leaning into those things where you have energy naturally for them and leaning away from the things that are killing you is a really good way to just naturally reposition your time because you could wait long enough and see what stuff stuck about because after half a decade. The only things that you're continuing to do that training if you if you don't like the gym that much your training is going to be inconsistent over long enough time period because white knuckling your way through something that you hate just doesn't work given a broad enough time horizon.

43:43Yeah, you have to find the version of it that is authentic and real for you, but you can get to this realization sooner by doing an audit on a daily basis. I quite like that. I imagine that many people's calendars would look terrifyingly red if they were to go back and do it. Yeah, and you can actually make real changes immediately. Like the first thing when I say this to people, they're like, well, I just work in, you know, I work in a job, I have to do a bunch of things that are energy draining. I totally understand that and agree with it. When I first did this, I was working in my finance job, 80 plus hours a week, and the biggest energy draining activity for me still to this day is the like, chit chat phone call, pick your brain meeting, like either Zoom or phone call, sitting at my desk.

44:27I would rather staple gun my stomach and go to the hospital than sit on a day of Zoom calls. I just, I cannot stand it. And so I had blocks of those that were just all red. But what I noticed was that taking a call on a walk is actually pretty energy creating for me I actually think the first time you and I spoke we were both out on walks while we were chatting because we both feel that way So suddenly if I just change half those phone calls to walking calls My calendar goes from being this like enormous block of red to more green and It's a small change that you can make immediately that makes you feel dramatically different at the end of the week and you show up with more presence on those calls.

45:06You're actually gonna have a better outcome on the call because you're focused, you're present. So it's like I push back against people when they have the immediately cynical, I can't do that viewpoint on whatever these ideas are because you actually have a lot more control of these things than you think. What else do you learn about time?

45:28The amount of time you have remaining with the people that you love most in the world is far more finite and terrifyingly countable than you think.

45:45We have all at different times in our lives experienced some traumatic event of someone we love getting sick, dying, and those moments are this spark. They're this little flash of light from the other side to recognize that there are things that matter so much more that we're not thinking about on a daily basis. And it sort of shines this light of wisdom onto your path where you are today. And the sad thing is that for most of us, you see that wisdom, you kind of nod your head and then you go back living the exact same damn way you were before. And in my own life, my own journey, everything changed for me with a single conversation that I had with an old friend in May of 2021.

46:37I was at a point in my life where things were pretty dark. I had sort of been playing the money game, I guess, for seven years to start my career. And I had gotten so narrowly focused on money as the path to me feeling good about myself. Everything was about, okay, on the other side of this bonus or this promotion or this whatever status symbol, I'll feel good about myself. And unfortunately, that narrow focus had led to a lot of other areas of my life starting to fall apart. My relationships, my parents, with my sister, my relationship with my wife was strained. We were struggling to conceive at the time, which is a thing that a lot of people don't talk about.

47:26cut sort of a burden that people carry in silence that is a very solitary journey that was tough and a strain on us at the time. My health was suffering. I was drinking seven nights a week. I mean, there were all these other areas of my life that were suffering while on the outside looking in, you would have said like I'm winning the game. And I went out for a drink with an old friend in May of 2021 and he asked how I was doing. And I said that it was starting to get tough, living as far away as we were from our parents. I was super close with my parents and they're getting older. They're starting to see chinks in the armor with their health.

48:05And he asked how older they? And I said they're in their mid -60s. And he said, how often do you see them? I said about once a year. And he looked at me and said, so you're going to see your parents 15 more times before they die. And I just remember feeling like I had been punched in the gut. I mean, the idea that the amount of time you have left with these people that you love most in the world is that countable that you can place it on a few hands was terrifying and jarring. And it sparked real change because I was determined to not be one of those people that hears it nods my head and then does nothing about it.

48:48And so the next morning I told my wife that I thought we needed to make a change in our life. And within 45 days, I had left my job, we had sold our house in California, and we had moved across the country to be closer to our parents. And the most beautiful part in all of it was after two years of struggling to conceive within two weeks of making that change and being back on the East Coast, my wife got pregnant with our son. And it was one of those moments, I'm not a particularly religious person, but it was one of those moments in life where you just feel like God winked at you. Like your things came into alignment and your whole life fell into place as it should.

49:33And the story of my life and of this book and of everything that I'm putting out into the world is really a ripple of that one decision to make that change, to prioritize the things that I knew we value most that had been sitting in the back seat for so long. Isn't it interesting the bravery component there? It's so important, the uncertainty that you were talking about before and how much can you tolerate of that, how much can you tolerate of fear and how brave can you be to overcome that. Yeah, and I think a big part of it for us, I have to give my wife credit because it is It's very difficult to be brave on your own.

50:13And she, when I came to her and said that I thought we should make this change, was the first one to say, we can do this. Yes, let's go do it. Easily she could have resisted. She could have said, like, what are you talking about? We have a good life, we have a house, we're making good money. All of the reasons to stay on the path. path. And I often say that the worst thing in the world is not being on a bad path. Being on a bad path, it screams at you every single day to change. You're on a bad path, you have to make a change. It's so abundantly obvious. The worst thing in the world is being on a good path that isn't yours.

50:52And that was very much where we were. It was a good path from a societal definition. But it was not the one that was leading to the place where I wanted to go. It was like that. Japanese proverb that says, if you get on the wrong train, get off as soon as possible, because if you don't, the trip back is going to be a lot longer. That was where we were. And my wife was the one that sort of infused me with the courage that we could actually go and do that. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about element before, and that's because, frankly, I'm dependent on it for the last three years.

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52:36Then, yes, sometimes you can't pull the pen all on your own. And it's awesome, dude. I'm so happy for you guys. And what a like inspiring story to have had that. The conception thing, I think, is so true as well. I read this really harrowing article about the crisis of childless men. A lot of the time women have a biological window and rightly a lot of the priority and attention is focused on them. But the same happening for men, whether it's that they get to an age where sperm count is so low that it's no longer viable, whether they get to an age, whether they're not able to date quite so easily or the only partners that they can date now are too old.

53:26And yeah, trying to, trying to conceive and not being able to do it is this weird, silent social epidemic that no one really ever wants to talk about all that much. Especially men. I mean, it is weird. I went on, you know, Dr. Rung and Chatterjee in the UK and I had a conversation with him and I shared those struggles to conceive. And he said that in 10 years of doing his podcast, I was the first man to ever talk about that on his show. And I think about it a lot because it is infertility is something that immediately gets placed on the woman. When you're struggling to conceive, the assumption that everyone has is that there's something wrong with the woman.

54:11And that is just not the case scientifically. Like nearly 50 % of the cases it's the man. Exactly. And stress is a contributor. Your body will not want to conceive if they're really high stress levels. There's a variety of internal factors that contribute to fertility into one seven nights a week. Drinking seven nights a week does not help not sleeping a whole lot because you're stressed or because your anxious doesn't help. So when I think about my own life and the actions I was taking, I think it's a totally fair assumption to say that I was a major part of it. It's not the only problem that's the problem, right?

54:44And obviously like also the back end of that of like making this change, me feeling this enormous weight lifted, reprioritizing all of these things that tireless fuck. Yeah, all of a sudden I'm like, man, we could have really just start going out. He's spread the scene. Everyone around me, all of a sudden got pregnant. Yeah. No, but it is I just think there's a lot of people out there and probably some people listening who are struggling with this right now and And I held it in silence, we did, and it placed an enormous burden on our relationship as a result because you're just suffering with something alone.

55:18And if you two aren't talking about it a lot, which tends to happen, it becomes this weight that you're just, if you're able to see urology, it's fatility, we had, my wife had, I had knock on and seen anyone, I had resisted it. And this is me being in a bad place in my life in the way that I was approaching everything in life, frankly, was, no, we're young, this is stupid. We have plenty of time. At the time, frankly, I was so narrowly focused on making money as the end, as the, you know, means to me feeling successful and feeling good, that I was like, I don't want kids. That seems like a distraction.

55:58It seems like it's, you know, not going to help me get to this end that I'm trying to chase of making all this money and being this success story in my life. And now I think about it and like it's the only thing I care about. I like everything that I do is in service of being an incredible father and wanting to teach my son these lessons that I think are so important in life. Can I ask a difficult question? Given the challenges that you had conceiving once, what are your feelings about trying to conceive again? We will definitely try, frankly, are now going to start trying for more. I think that, you know what I mean, just that sort of maybe PTSD thing like, fuck we like, we made it, do I really want to get my hopes up again?

56:43And then maybe I wondered whether that was the sort of thing that Ling is. You know, I would say almost in the opposite direction that my wife and I feel such extraordinary gratitude for the fact that we were able to have our son and knock on wood that he is healthy and happy. And to me, I'm like, if left running back, if we have any more kids, I'm like, it's a cherry on top of this incredible blessing that we have. If it were up to me, we'd go have five. I mean, I love kids. And I'm like, this is the best thing in the world. It's hard to imagine. Absolutely converted. Yeah, I mean, if it's hard to imagine after you have one that your heart can expand enough to love another thing as much as you love your kid, I cannot.

57:31I had been selfish my entire life and I think that we are all even when you get married, you are fundamentally until you have a child, you are a selfish being. You might love your spouse, but you don't love them more than yourself. You would not, in most cases, like truly, you know, shoot yourself in the head, press the button and kill yourself to save your spouse in a lot of cases. I really think like that would be more of a question that people would ask. With your kid, if you had a button that you could press and save their life and immediately exterminate yourself, you would press it without thinking about it.

58:07Do you think that it also changes whether you would do the same for your partner now that the kids there too. 100 % of this. So you have this great question. This sort of blast radius that's fed back up from the child. That is a great question. I've never thought about it. And yes, 100%. I think about it now, if I could press that button and save my wife and my son, I would press that in a heartbeat. Because I see the two of them and I know, and that's, I think as a father and as a husband, the single best feeling in the world is knowing that my son would be great if I died. Like knowing that if I'm flying home tonight and my plane crashes and I die, my son is gonna have an amazing life because he has the most incredible mom that loves him so much.

58:53And he's surrounded by love and support. And that I think is like the highest calling as a man to feel that you can leave this legacy that exists beyond you where your child is going to be okay. I think as well, you're right, the selfish thing is something I've thought about a lot, but especially as I reflected on last year. And every time that I see kids, more and more of my friends are getting pregnant at the moment in one form or another. And in one form or another, what are the other forms? Well, like as in there is a new shit. I'm just wondering if there are varying stages of pregnancy and also varying stages of, I would say, announcing it, which is why I'm not saying.

59:34There's a number of people that have been on the show a good bit. You can only be stealth pregnant for so long. Factored. I mean, it's starting to show on a couple of the girlfriends and wives. So, a lot of the pursuits that I think me and a good chunk of my friends have done for, you know, the first 15 years to two decades out of university full -time education have been basically just surrogate family building. I'm gonna start this project, I'm gonna create this brand, I'm going to pursue this passion of some kind, I'm gonna get good at this thing, and you're just pouring energy and care and focus and obsession and emotion into this thing, which kind of feels a little bit like a baby.

1:00:26People even refer to it, I'm sure you, at some point in your past, you've referred to your newsletter like my baby, my writing is my baby, but it's not. And one of the best things that I can think of is if you do end some worlds in your 20s and put yourself in a position where you go, hey, I financially am stable and I've acquired some skills and I've got some scars, but I feel good about them. And I actually think that I'm now ready to sort of pay this forward. That makes the selfishness in your twenties feel way less selfish is you go, maybe it wasn't about me just doing things for me. Maybe those were the important lessons that I needed so that when the next generation comes along and it's me that's coaching them, I can tell them exactly all of the different pitfalls that happened.

1:01:20And I know how to deal with this emotional ups and downs and swings and turbulences that they've gone through. And I've got the life experience and we've got the financial stability and we've got, you know, I've closed all of the different loops, all of those questions about, oh, I wonder what it would have been like to travel to Bali and now we've got three kids and I can't go to Bali anymore. And you go, you went to Bali twice. Like, that's why all of these things have been closed off. So yeah, I love the idea of... And it'll be fascinating to see just how much having kids totally refrains the way that I look at everything that happened before.

1:01:55I think Russ Roberts says there's two types of people in the world. There's pre -kids and post -kids and he said the two will never be able to talk to each other fully about what life's like. Yeah, I had that feeling when my son was born the first time I held him and again this comes from someone who was not a kid guy. I I wasn't like, I spent my whole life being like, I want kids, doting. And when my son was born, I held him for the first time and he looked up at me. And I remember just having this sensation that I had spent the first 30 years of my life trying to understand the meaning and purpose of all of this.

1:02:29And then it was staring right back at me. I had this experience actually shortly after he was born where I took him out for a walk, you know, kids like sleeping obviously as a shitcho and he wouldn't sleep other than basically when I walked him around in his stroller. And so I was walking him early one Saturday morning and I was standing on the sidewalk and this old man walked up to me And he came over and he said I remember standing here with my newborn daughter She's 45 years old now. It goes by fast cherish it and I took him back home and I brought him into bed My wife was still asleep and the sun was kind of coming through the blinds And he had this like little perfect smile on his face and I had this sensation that for the first time in my life I had arrived, but there was nothing more that I wanted.

1:03:19Like my whole life had been spent chasing some more. There was something like I needed more money or more promotions or more status or more whatever the thing was. And for the first time in my life, I was just content. Like I truly felt like I had enough. And it was this idea that we can never let the quest for more distract from the beauty of enough. Finding those moments where you truly feel like you have enough. That is what a wealthy life looks like. Yeah, you said expectations of your biggest liability and that kind of feels like the same thing. Yeah, if your expectations rise faster than your assets than the things you have, you will never feel wealthy.

1:04:02You will constantly be on this chase for whatever more you're looking for. There's that famous story of Kurt Vonnegut and Joseph Heller. Have you heard that story. So Kurt Vonnegut, famous American author, Joseph Heller, another famous American author, author of Catch 22, the satirical work. And the two of them, Vonnegut and Heller were at the house of this billionaire in the Hamptons. And Vonnegut asks Heller, how does it feel that just yesterday, the owner of this house made more money than your book, Catch 22, made in the entirety of its lifetime. And Heller replies, I've got something that he'll never have.

1:04:44And Vaughnigit says, yeah, what's that? And Heller says, the knowledge that I've got enough. And it's that exact lesson. That, that is true wealth, the knowledge that you have enough, that you don't need to chase more, and that if you do chase more, it needs to be grounded in something more meaningful than just chasing money. If you are chasing ambition because you're grounded in your purpose, because you want to go and create something meaningful for the world. You want to go create a more meaningful life for your family because you feel like you can spread ideas that will positively impact people.

1:05:17That's a great reason to go and chase something bigger. But chasing more money is just a road to nowhere. Public service announcement, 20 years from now, the only people who will remember that you worked late to your kids. So true. That was this viral Reddit post that, But I think it is probably the most viral thing I've ever shared. It is entirely true in my experience. And the challenge with all of this is a simple fact, which is for 10 years, you are your child's favorite person in the entire world. And after that 10 year window, they have other favorite people. They have best friends, they have boyfriends, they have girlfriends, they have partners of their own, they have children of their own.

1:06:13Sports team coaches, you will never occupy that same place in their world. But for that 10 year window, you are literally everything to them. And yet we live in a culture where that 10 years also coincides with the time when you you are supposed to chase every more that is out there. Chase all of your professional ambitions. To navigating that tension, figuring out how to balance your pursuit of your fullest potential with the desire to be present with your kids during that magic window that you have, that is the fundamental tension of being a parent in the modern era. It's finding your unique balance of those two.

1:06:52Is that an argument to front load the life and wealth acquisition and to really try and send it as much as you can in your twenties So that some of that Price that overhead has been paid a little bit before the kids come along. I think that it is a couple things I think one I'm sort of of two minds on this one I think that being present during that window of time with your kids is the most important thing but two I think it is extraordinarily important for your children to see you work hard on things you care about. That's interesting. I think that is the most important lesson I learned from my father.

1:07:27Was that growing up? I saw him work so hard on things that lit him up intellectually. And the important point there is that you have to be included in the why. Meaning, I always knew why my dad was working hard on things. He always took the time to explain to me what he was working on. working on why he cared about it, why he felt it was important, why I was part of that mission with him. And that always meant that I knew when he was traveling, when he was gone, when he was working, when he was doing things, I knew why. And I wasn't that he deboned and knew, wasn't that he didn't kick exactly.

1:08:05And that's the important point is if you don't fill the why with the correct reason, your kids will fill it with the worst reason. Your kids will fill it with the abandoned. They'll fill it with the dad doesn't want to be around, dad's never around. But you can fill that with the correct reason. But you have to actually think about it. You have to be aware enough to say those things to your kid. Even when my son's two and a half, as he really understanding it, maybe not. But he's understanding it enough that when I'm going somewhere, he's saying, Dad, I work. He's like looking at me, he's helping me with things.

1:08:36He's helping me pack. He goes and sits at my desk. He like tries to type things. He understands when I'm writing stuff. So they absorb a lot more than you think, but it requires being intentional about creating that understanding in them. A quick aside, if you're struggling to fall asleep on a nighttime, stay asleep throughout the night or not waking up feeling rested and revitalized in the morning, Mementus' Magnesium L3Nate is one of my favorite products which I use every single night before bed. Magnesium L3Nate is uniquely able to cross the blood brain barrier, I also boost memory, focus and cognitive function, while also improving sleep and reducing stress, which is why it's a massive part of my brain body and sleep stack which I use every single day.

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1:09:48It's cool to draw that line from why I'm doing this work to the outcome that I'm going to get. I played a lot of sport when I was a kid, and I never was taught as a, when we were training. This sounds so dumb, But I was never taught that the reason that you went to practice wasn't to enjoy the team building and to do drills for no reason. It was that these were the individual components that when you stepped out onto the field of play would make you a better player. And I just hadn't drawn that lineage between preparation and performance. Like obviously it's there. And I think I'd had it, it was there sort of vaguely, but to really, really understand the dopamine that comes, the reward that comes from, okay, this is why you're going to break this down into its component parts.

1:10:39You're not just doing it so that you can do it right now. You're doing it so that when the game time comes, you're actually going to be better. And I think humans are driven by little more than they're driven by dopamine. And if you can say, hey, this is the playbook for how it works. This is the playbook for how reward works. I'm doing this thing because I care about it and it's hard, but it makes me feel good. And I think that it makes the world a better place. This is how it works. And you just drill that blueprint for a decade and a half. Like, if your kid is built even remotely like you, they're going to be very, very well set.

1:11:14And they see it, right? Like, you can teach that. This is something I've changed my mind on for sure in my own life with my son, which is you can't really teach your kids anything. You just have to embody the things and they learn from seeing you do it. Don't tell them show them. And it's true for all things in life, right? Like it goes back to the Tim Cook and all those stories of what we were talking about. Like you're not talking about the morning routine, you're just showing the output, show me the output. And I think about my own experience with my dad, like some of the most formative learning moments I had with him of what it meant to work hard, what it meant to have discipline, we're just observing him do that.

1:11:49I got to go when I was a kid on this trip with him as like his plus one. My dad's a professor at Harvard and he was giving a talk at this conference in Asia. And my mom couldn't go so I got to be the plus one and it was my first time ever flying business class Because I was this plus one for this thing So I have like movies and food and all this stuff It's like 15 hour flight and my dad sat there and worked for the entire 15 hour flight And when we landed I turned him and I was like dad You didn't watch a single movie on that whole flight and he kind of just laughed and you know, we moved on from it But I remember that moment so clearly that for 15 hours he worked.

1:12:29And that was what was required for him to be the type of person that would get invited to give a talk at a conference, for him to be able to bring his son to something like that. That was the work that he had to put in. And so now when I think about my own experience and things that I want to work hard on that, I want to put my head down like, I'm in a season of unbalance in my life, right? Like you have these periods where you have to be willing to embrace the idea that you You are in a season of unbalanced. You are in a season where shit is just crazy and chaotic, and you have to lean into it.

1:12:58Because worrying about, oh, I don't have perfect balance in my day is lose a sight of the bigger picture, which is this season of unbalanced is required for me to have the season of balance later. Dude, I think about this all the time from how much you zoom in to the little duration. Nobody looks at a single minute and says, I didn't really balance that minute enough. You know, it was a really fully embracing my fun side during that minute. But across a day, we do. We say, you know, today, I didn't really do enough X or Y. But that's not how your life is lived. Yes, if you're not careful, can you get to the end of a month and look back on that month and realize that there was a big missing gap?

1:13:41But really, you should be doing it across an entire 12 month period. I'm looking back and saying, well, this year, I focused a little bit too much on this thing, but I'm glad that that was the case. We periodize, weightlifters periodize their lifting. They're not trying to max out all the time. They pull back, they do deloads, they go up, they peak for competition, then they lift, then they come back down again, then they go back up. Like that's the way that life's supposed to be lived. And it's odd that across a single day, we can get agitated at ourselves for not having enough time for dot, dot, dot.

1:14:14You go, well, you don't need to. What if all of Wednesday is spent on that thing that you think last week you didn't spend enough time on? You go, would that be enough? Would like one day out of 14 be enough? You go, absolutely. You're okay. Well, you're going to have periods of imbalance, but you're going to have large cycles of balance. I think of my years in quarters. I like to view my life as like a public company. It's like, I'm gonna live Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4. And if I am in a crazy quarter of focus and head down on something that matters, that's okay. I don't need to stress about that. As long as I have the knowledge that I'm going to be able to pull back and have a quarter where things are a little bit more balanced where I'm able to reset.

1:15:01And that is an important point because that whole idea of balance has been hijacked, right? Like balance has been hijacked by the day optimizers of saying like you have to have the perfect balance of rest, family, workout, work, deep work, all of these things, right? Every single day. And when you don't have that, you start getting stressed. If that's what you think balance looks like, you start freaking out when you don't have that or when you're traveling a lot or when your head's down on things. And viewing balance on a seasonal basis, on a quarterly basis is a much healthier way to look at it.

1:15:31Because then you give yourself the freedom to actually focus on something. We all know that like the most incredible outputs in history have all been created by these extraordinary bouts of focused attention. Sir Isaac Newton had the year where he was locked down because of the plague in Europe. He had to leave school at Cambridge and go home and live in his little town for a full year. He was just completely locked down. And during that year, he formulated all of the laws of gravitation. He invented calculus. He like did a lifetime's worth of work because he had a focused year of attention on a single set of problems that he was trying to solve.

1:16:10And that's great. Like that is how extraordinary outcomes are created. So we have to give ourselves the freedom to do that. And after that, you have people called him lucky. Exactly. What does it mean to expand your luck surface area? So luck surface area is the idea that... At any point in time in your life, you have a physical literal surface area on which lucky events can strike. The best sort of visual for this that I have is from the movie Interstellar. Yeah, it's one of my favorite movies. You know, and they go to that planet that is right on the edge of the black hole. And it has the perfect conditions for life.

1:16:52They're like, oh, this planet should have life and they're trying to figure out why it didn't. And what they talk about is the fact that it sits right next to the black hole. So all of the lucky events that could have struck the planet, all of the little asteroids that might have contained life, got sucked into the black hole. So there was something that was making the luck surface area of that planet zero. It was minus fuel. You and your own life are kind of that same idea. You need to think about how can you expand your luck surface area to be as big as possible, so that when the lucky events come, they are striking your life and you're able to capitalize on them.

1:17:30The perfect example is what I said earlier. It's very hard to get lucky sitting on the couch watching TV at home. How can you possibly get lucky? Versus, going out, meeting people, having conversations, working on things, contributing value to other people. Now all of a sudden, I'm expanding my luck surface area because there's all of this motion that's been created, there's all this action that's created. The lucky events actually have an opportunity to strike. I no longer have a black hole of Netflix sitting next to my entire life. Yeah, it's really interesting what you said before as well about God winking at you.

1:18:05I love that line. It does seem that luck very rarely comes into your life when you're being timid, when you're only listening to your head. You could probably write out a bunch of times when you felt the most lucky and what with the sort of behaviors, what was the kind of energy that you were bringing to the world. And it would probably be leaning forward brave, courageous, hopeful, aligned, like humble as well. It's probably very rarely when you're full of ego and bouncing around. Isn't there that quote fortune favors the bold sort of that idea, right? Of like when you are bold, when you were leaning into things.

1:18:49I think it's CS Lewis that talks about the fact that courage is like the highest form of every virtue. It is like when the virtue is tested, that is what courage truly is. That's interesting. Because it's very easy to express a virtue when there's not anything on the long run. Yeah, when times are good, it's very easy to be loyal when nothing's happening. Is that like wind of momentum, do you think? It's very similar. Yeah. It's very easy in your whole life to continue to do the thing when it's working and when the rewards are certain. I often think that the most dangerous man in the world is the one who can remain disciplined, show up and do the work even when the rewards are uncertain.

1:19:36The person who can tolerate the most uncertainty is the person who will ultimately win. That's why we love untodog stories, right? We love the underdog story because there is nobody that is never going to be at that bottom position. If you're in the fortunate situation of things being better for you, then good. They're, you catch the trajectory halfway up the staircase. But if you're at the very, very bottom, you think, wow, that was when things were hard. That was when gravity was at its strongest. That was when your launch velocity was at zero and you needed to rip this fucker off the a launch pad one inch at a time, that's inspiring.

1:20:12That's something that I hope for in me or that I hope that more people are able to achieve in themselves or if I fall from grace and I hit rock bottom again, that means that that's the place that I can sort of bounce back from. But yeah, talk more about Winimum Anthem. I like that. Yeah, it's a funny thing too. Have you ever, do you know anything about like aviation planes? So like a plane when it starts stalling out, it starts falling out of the sky, right? Like you have moments in your life where you've hit stall speed and you start just stalling and you're falling out of the sky and there's this insane just like collapse towards the earth.

1:20:47And the funny thing about a plane stalling is that your bias when your plane is stalling is to pull back. You're like, I'm going to pull back because I'm falling out of the sky, I got to pull back. When actually how you save a plane from a stall is that you lean into it. You actually have to go nose down to generate the speed through the air to get back to using the wings for lift. And so it's this funny paradox of life that in the moments when you are collapsing when things aren't going well, that's actually when you need to lean into things. When you need to lean into the risky thing, when you need to do the challenging thing to have the courage in those moments when it's most challenging to do it.

1:21:26It's like the you know the startup that's collapsing that cuts Once everyone from their team in order to make their runway four weeks longer, when in reality, they probably should have invested more heavily to try to get the sufficient speed to get out of it. You're just prolonging the inevitable if you pull back. I think about that a lot in life. At those moments, we need to have the courage to lean into the thing and see our way to the other side. The worst prison in the world is having the talented intelligence to achieve something great, but lacking the courage to go out and do it. Hmm. Yeah, this goes back to the courage point that so many of us get trapped in this self -created prison of not being willing to step out of our zone of comfort in our world.

1:22:21We just sit in the confines of what feels natural and what feels real and what feels normal and we hide behind our talent or intelligence. We say like, well, yeah, but I'm really talented, I'm really intelligent, I could go do this and that. But if you're not doing the thing, it doesn't matter. If you don't actually take the step to confront the fear and go and do it, Abraham Maslow has this quote that, our greatest fear is in our highest possibility. And I think that that's such an interesting idea that there are actually two types of fear. There's the fear of failure, which is the fear that we all know.

1:22:59That's the fear that we are going to go after something and it's not going to work out that everyone's going to see us fail that we fell off. But then there's the fear of success. There's the fear that we go and do the thing and it works out greater than we ever expected and we're never able to live up to that highest possibility again that we're going to achieve the thing and never be able to experience that high, high again in our lives. Sometimes it is our light that we most fear. I think about that all the time. Do you hold yourself back because you were afraid of what will happen if you actually succeed beyond your wildest expectations?

1:23:38Well, one of the ruthless things about ever having a very successful day is that the new baseline for your next most successful day just got raised by a massive amount. Take one of the worst days of your life in an odd regard would maybe be the day that you won the lottery. Do you think, well, how are you going to have a better day than that? Now, what you want is to basically plan your entire existence to just slowly step change up and then the day that you die, the final payment check for the fucking home bounces. Right? Like, that's where you want to get to. But what people have are these, I've spoken to Dan Bilzerian about this.

1:24:15You've been to the top of the Hidonic Mountain. and what would you give me some of the insights. And he said, you know, like quickly accumulating a lot of pleasure is a really, really bad idea because why'd you go from that? It's called the Nova Effect. It's a psychological phenomenon that you experience a massive decline in your happiness after a great event as a result of exactly that. It's like winning the lottery or you go on the extraordinary vacation and then your normal life sucks and you're so pissed because you go back to normal. All of the Ibiza blues in the UK. No, exactly. That's also the come down.

1:24:51Yeah. It reminds me of that idea of the client. It's the cliche that everyone says is like you have to find joy in the process. Everyone says that. Over and over. You find the joy in the climb. But the climb is also very important for a critical structural reason, which is it it acclimatizes you to having the thing. If you were to get dropped at the top of Mount Everest right now, you would pass out and die because you wouldn't have been acclimatized to the altitude from the climb. The climb is actually important because it's what prepares you for being able to be at the summit. So true. I reflected on this the first time that I moved out to America and then a lot of big scary opportunities that was super exciting came along.

1:25:41And I'd thought for a long time that I wanted those things to happen. These invites or to do these shows, speak to these guests or do whatever. And it was only after it happened that I realized that I wasn't ready for the opportunities that I desperately wanted. And you basically, you're not ready until they come. And that sounds like God -winking at you again. But you're simply not. And when the opportunity finally rises and you do take advantage of it, it does go well. I think, I'm glad I waited. But there's also an insight here, which is, I was trying to come up with a name for it, Untitiable Lessons.

1:26:22So a particularly unique category of insight that nobody will believe unless they learn it for themselves. There's certain ones that you can probably teach people about like reheating chicken and you know, there's a bit some pieces. You go like, I don't need to go through the Salmanella, which I've had. in order to learn that that's something. But if you're gonna tell somebody that money's not gonna make you happy, or that success won't fill that internal void, or that perhaps having kids is going to make everything else in your life just fade into obscurity. These are lessons, you go, yeah, but, you know, like, not for me, like, I'm gonna, the way I'll do it, the way I'll use my wealth, the type of fame that I would have, the particular pathologies that I'm carrying with me that would be healed by the recognition from the people around me.

1:27:11The amount of passion that I have for my work, it's nice for you, you know, because you had your thing, you had your little like fucking million person newsletter and you had like your little writing and stuff, but you don't understand the strength of my pattern. And then the situation comes along and it's only after someone has been able to go through it that they go, yeah, untiegeable lesson. Yeah, the pushback I have against that is we constantly learn things from other people's experience that sort of become obvious, right? Like, you don't need to teach, you don't need to tell me that putting my finger into an electrical socket is going to hurt for me to not do.

1:27:51Like, you tell me that once and I don't need to do that or experience that to know that that is probably true and I'm good. Like, you taught me it. The one with money is like, I'm not saying that money won't make you happy. I think money will make you happy, but only up to a point. And what I want you to do is take the thing that you know in the back of your mind, which is that these other things are also a very important piece. I mean, like the book is called The Five Types of Wealth. One of those is money. Financial wealth is one of the five types of wealth, and it is a whole section in the book for a reason, because it is a key part of living a wealthy life.

1:28:26But the other things cannot get lost on that journey. Money isn't nothing, it just can't be the only thing. It is a tool for building these other types of wealth, and you should use it that way. It just can't be the goal in and of itself, beyond those early years. And so I think that like, yes, sometimes you have to experience these like challenging pains or see these fails along the way. But we are humans and are incredible capacity as humans as a species has been that we can learn from knowledge that is passed down from others. That is what has allowed us to survive and thrive as we began to use language to write and tell stories that could help the next generation so that we can build upon it.

1:29:09This is a story that we need to start learning from. We need to understand, we need to hear those stories of wisdom, and rather than just nodding our heads and going on living the same damn way we were before, we need to take some tiny set of actions to actually internalize them and change. Talk to me about operationalizing some of your favorite concepts from the book. Lots of good conceptually stuff now. Let's get some tactical bits. Yeah. I think the first thing you should do is assess where you are. So, in the book, there's a wealth score quiz. So, this is the way of actually assessing where you exist on this broader definition of wealth beyond just money.

1:29:48It's a way of actually on a scale of zero to 100, giving yourself a number for your wealth across these broader set of areas. You can actually go to wealthscorequiz .com and we have an online version that creates this nice visual for you as a baseline. That is what I did in May of 2021 to get a baseline sense of what I wanted to build off of. So in the same way, you have a net worth tool like you can use this to actually track how you are performing across these other areas of life. That's a great starting point for everyone. The next thing is to actually go through the questions that the book asks you to wrestle with and wrestle with them because the entire book is about asking the right questions for your life.

1:30:29It's an odd thing, but it is a self -help, self -improvement book where in the first opening pages I say that it will not give you the answers. And it's a little scary to say that at the start of a book, but it's the truth. Because you already have the answers, you just haven't asked the right questions yet about your life. You haven't revealed those answers from you. And so going through and actually asking the big questions that each section forces you to ask and contend with, talking about them with the people that you care about and love that are around you, it will give you a clear sense of what that compass, like what that true North is in your life that you are trying to build towards.

1:31:12Once you have that in mind, it just becomes taking actions on a daily basis to build towards that. And tiny actions. The whole point is financial wealth is an obvious area where you know you can invest daily or on a regular basis and compound towards a positive future. Every single other area of your life is the exact same, but we don't think about it that way. When it comes to your relationships, you don't think about investing on a daily basis in your relationships, but your relationships are arguably the best investment you can make. Your relationships pay greater dividends and returns than any financial investment.

1:31:51Think about the people that you have invested in building relationships with. That is where your greatest business opportunities are going to come from. Those relationships are what is going to lead to the most fulfilling purpose, the meaning, the financial opportunities, that is where all of that's going to come from. So investing in relationships, the same way you think about investing in the stock market, or crypto, or whatever it is you're into, is a great way to think about it. But you need to have that mindset shift that these areas can be invested in on a daily basis. What's the think day?

1:32:23This is probably my favorite practice from the whole book. So in the book, each section for each type of wealth has a guide. And in that guide, there are sort of the science -backed proven strategies for building that type of wealth. Think Day is in the mental wealth section of the book. And the whole idea stems from Bill Gates, who in the 1980s started this practice of a think week where he would go off the grid for an entire week with a whole bunch of reading and would completely shut off, not be communicating with anyone. He would just read and think and learn. And think about the biggest picture questions facing Microsoft at the time.

1:33:01And Bill Gates now credits those think weeks as being the most transformative thing for Microsoft's development over the years into the gargantuan company it is. Not all of us, very few of us in fact, can take a week of time to go and just think about things. I certainly can't. But can you carve out a day once a month or once a quarter to take a few hours to just zoom out and think about the bigger picture questions and things in your life? The idea being create the space to zoom out and think about those questions. Think about what are the most important things in my life right now? Are my actions on a daily basis aligned with those things?

1:33:40What would the audience be screaming at me to do if I were the main character in this movie right now? I think that's my favorite question in the whole book is if you were the main character in a movie of your life, what would the audience be screaming at you to do right now? We've all had that experience. You go to a movie you watch a TV show and the main character's doing something and you just want to jump through the screen and be like, go chase the girl to the airport or like, don't go down into that basement. Whatever the thing is, that's you right now in a movie of your life and the audience would be screaming at you to do something right now or to change some action and you're ignoring it.

1:34:18What is that thing? Create the space in your life to actually think about what that thing is and then change accordingly. Frankly. Fuck yeah. Dude, let's bring this one into land. Where should people go? They want to keep up to date with everything you're doing. Check out the work. Yeah, the book is out now everywhere. Books are sold. The five types of wealth .com. You can find more info. Get it on Amazon, wherever it is. And I'm at Sahil Bloom on every major platform. Having a weird name. That's one of the benefits. Time right. Dude, I appreciate you. Appreciate you. Thank you very much for tuning in.

1:34:48Mmm. I'm going to taste the Sahil episode. Want a little bit more? How about tasty Alex Homozi? What are you here? Come on, press it.