#906 - Erwin McManus - What It Takes To Live A Courageous Life

28:13It's interesting, sort of bringing it back to the fear thing that fear doesn't keep you safe. It's keeping you trapped. It feels like it's keeping you safe. But what it's actually doing is it's keeping you trapped and being trapped, the paralysis is precisely the thing that's going to keep you faithful. Yeah, that's why I love describing it this way that your freedom is on the other side of your fear. Because if you're afraid of heights, you stay low. If you're afraid of people you stay alone, if you're afraid of the dark, you stay in the light, your fear establishes the boundaries of your freedom.

28:47And so when you're defining your fears, you're actually defining your personal boundaries. And I'm absolutely convinced that the freedom we all long for is on the other side of our fears. And our fears becomes a psychological boundary that holds us captive and tells us that it's too dangerous to go there. But the moment we go that we realize, oh my goodness, you know, this is what I've been dreaming for of all my life. You know, I grew up incredibly shy and reclusive and introverted. I was in a, I was in a psychiatric chair by a time I was 10 years old, Chris, and you know, being tested for, for mental, you know, disabilities, and I was a straight D student, first to 12th grade.

29:35My English teacher last day of high school asked me if I thought about going to college. I said, maybe she said, you will never make it. I didn't go to school right away. I just, I work construction, I was a carpenter, I worked as a lumberjack, you know, I made pizzas, flip burgers. I had no direction, no future in my life. And in a huge part of that was this fear that I could never accomplish anything meaningful. And so what I ended up doing is I did nothing so that there was no proof that I was not good at anything. And what I had to really began to realize is that fear was the debilitating element in my soul.

30:14And I had this very odd kind of experience. Years later as an adult, my son was around 15 years old. He wanted to meet my stepdad that he'd never met. That's where I had my name, MacMannus. And we flew across the country, tracked him down, I hadn't seen him in almost 20 years. And he said to my son, I don't know why he said this, He goes, I don't know what your dad told you, but he was just average. You know, I don't know if he's talking about athleticism and sports and different things. He goes, you know, I don't know what he told you. Now, his brother was exceptional, but he was just average.

30:50And I remember saying to him, Dad, I don't know what you think I would tell him. I was just average. And I was, I was leaving. What really hit me was, he was absolutely right. I hid in the average. The one way to remain invisible in life is to be average. And I was trying to cover all my insecurities and all myself doubt by just being average because if you become extraordinary, you now become the target of other people's critique or criticism or evaluation. And one of the choices I had to make in my own life is realizing I want to make a difference in the world I want to do something that matters and And I remember I had an uncle who drove me to college about 15 hour drive and you saw me years later goes Hey, do you talk now?

31:48And he didn't mean for a living he meant do I actually talk? He goes I drove you 15 hours you never said a word. I was so Interverted no would have ever guessed I would end up speaking to millions of people around the world And what I can tell you Chris is that what shifted for me wasn't that I wasn't afraid to walk up on a platform What shifted for me was I didn't walk in that platform for my ego And I didn't walk in that platform for my for my need or search for self -worth But I wanted to actually help people find freedom from the fears that had held me back and I and I looked at myself I thought, if I've been trapped in fear at such a profound level and have found my way out, I'm convinced most of humanity is trapped in fear.

32:37And if I can just help people find just enough self -belief to break out of that prison that they've created themselves by believing these things about themselves, then for me my life has been well spent. Where does that self -belief come from or that courage? For me, it came really deeply rooted in what later I found it as a faith. I grew up irreligious. I didn't have any spiritual contacts. I didn't know there was a God or believe in God. When I was 20 years old and I was in college, I was studying philosophy and was just trying to find meaning in life. life. And I was on a desperate search to figure out whether my life had any significance.

33:26I was drowning in a personal neilism that life had no meaning that existence was just arbitrary, that human action was, you know, was empty and hollow. And then to consider this narrative that we're created by God and that we're created in this image and that what gives God pleasure is for us to express goodness and to live a life of love and to elevate the value of other human beings. And for me, I found that in the person of Jesus. And what helped myself believe was this possibility. And, you know, I know you can have a lot of scientists and philosophers and, you know, And I'm just for me, it's just very, very personal.

34:18The possibility that my life actually mattered was overwhelming to me. And I wish I could say I made this incredibly scientific, academic, you know, mathematical decision. It wasn't. It was for me more of a, God, you know, if you're out there in my life matters, I'm in. You know, I just want to make a difference in the world. I want to serve humanity. I want to help people live a life that's fully alive. And myself believe came in this conviction that my life wasn't about me, that my life had to be bigger than me, and that I could actually shift the course of human history by living a life that expands love and hope and faith.

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36:23I mean out of my mind and I'm borrowing my girlfriend who is now my wife Kim's yellow Pinto So I'm in the hood in a yellow Pinto. I'm begging to be killed.

36:37And my heart is pounding against my chest. I'm 24 years old and I'm terrified. And I stopped the car in the middle of the street. And I'm kind of new in this whole faith thing. And I just started reading the Bible and I kind of stopped and prayed as I said, God, I can't come down here if I'm scared to death to get out of the car and all these people of faith were giving me these great verses that were so encouraging, you know, and but none of those came to my mind. There's a particular statement in the scriptures where it says, to live as Christ and to die as gain. And I had this deep sense in this moment that said, or when if you'll just die right now, I'll take you on a life journey that only dead man can walk.

37:29And in that moment, I just, I had a personal funeral and I told myself, I am dead to all my fear, to my existence, and to my doubts. And I spent the next 10 years working in the middle of drug cartels walking into houses or projects owned by cartels, Uzi machine guns everywhere cocaine stack to ceilings and I could tell you Chris and I never I never felt fear Because they couldn't I said a cross from a guy who sent me a letter in prison telling me would kill me the moment He got a prison and when he got a prison I went and found him and walked into the room he was in and It it changed the way I could approach life because you couldn't take anything from me and And then 40 years later, I had stage 4 cancer and I had prostate bladder and lift note cancer that had been undetected and had metastasized and had 6 and a half hours surgery not knowing if I would live.

38:34And the craziest thing in that season, Chris, I never felt fear one time. And my family will tell you this. that and the reason is because fear became my ally. It could take nothing from me. I had given it everything and I'm 66 now and every time I move into a new decade, I find myself strangely more fearless. And in fact, my family, they asked me if I would just slow down or be a little more cautious or, you know, and I'm like, why? The older I get, the less life you can steal from me.

39:14And I've been in the most dangerous, violent, fragile environments in the world, and I walked out of those. There used to be students who would put money on every day what day I would be assassinated. You had your own Deadpool. I did. And I look at it now, I go, what kept me safe was my lack of fear of death. Well, this conviction that you couldn't take anything from me. And even this killer who told me he was going to kill me when he came out of prison looked at me and he was so confused by me and he said, you and me are the same. And which were nothing alike. But he said, I'm radical for evil and you're radical for God.

39:59And I found ironically safety on the streets because this guy sent the word out that if somebody touched me, he would kill them. And just for respect for the lack of fear. And I think every human being is dashed really trying to fear how to be alive. We're all trying to figure out how to break out of the malaise of existence and to be able to just drink deeply of this experience called life. And I want my life to be proof that that's possible. And I think that's what all of us long for. Can you tell me more about the relationship with this guy, this criminal? Well, his name was William Westfall.

40:40So he's a real human being. And he had gone to prison for slitting his girlfriend's brothers throughout, but the guy did not die, but he did cut off his vocal chords. And when he was in prison, his family had come to faith and he felt that I had infringed on his territory. So he sent me a few notes while he was in prison, letting me know that when he got to prison, and he was going to end my life. And it's always nice to know someone's thinking of it, right? And so I like it a letter as much as the next guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, back then people did right. You know, and when he got out of prison, I decided that I didn't want to be walking down the street and fear that this guy's gonna come out of a corner.

41:23So I just decided to go find him. And I knocked on the project door where he was staying. And there's probably 20 people in there. And the moment I walked in, everyone ran out and it was just me and him. And he pulled out the switchblade because he was known for, he was a white guy who was really good with a knife, which was, which made him very unique. And he sat across from me, he goes, this is the same knife I still just wrote with. And he goes, please never got it, he just laughed. And, and you know, I just began to have a conversation with them. I said, you know, you're at a prison, but you're not free.

41:57Behind every corner of somebody waiting to kill you, you're living a life of fear. And I talked to him about how his life could change. He wasn't interested. And he wasn't interested in God. He wasn't interested in faith. But he was fasting by someone who was an afraid of him. And I actually think he was fasting by someone who was fully alive while he was living a life of fear and violence. And then not much after that, he was trying to choke his girlfriend to death and she took a pair of scissors and killed him. And not every story ends up with a good ending. So that's the story of my friend, Bill.

42:40Wow. Yeah. Just going through more of that sort of fear, setting, you're about to go and speak on stage as somebody that was an introvert as a kid and wouldn't speak on a 15 hour car ride, you're at office at somebody that's got a switch played out who sent you multiple letters saying that they're going to kill you. What's happening inside of you? What's the reframe? What's the body feel like? What's the mind feel like? What is it that you're saying to yourself? Because a lot of people will like the idea of this, like the idea of fearing less and being fearless. And yet they step into a situation like that and they're just, you know, overcome with this wave, this tidal wave that they can't stop.

43:23Yeah, I'm not recommending my life to anyone in that regard. And I'm not saying that even my choices are always the wisest. And what I would say is that whenever you look back on your life and you know your life has been informed and filled by fear, you never feel that you've lived your life to the fullest. So what I would say to someone is adrenaline is natural. Fear, when people say you shouldn't fear, I'm like, enough a lion is hungry and it's running at you. Fear is the most reasonable emotion in life. And so I don't think you should be, quote, fear less in terms of the experience of that emotion.

44:05You just have to have mastery over your inner world and you have to have intention in your life that's bigger than consequences. And that for me has been the big question is because it's also in business, right? And I've started a lot of businesses in my life. I've been an entrepreneur for 40 years and I've lost millions and millions of dollars, which puts me in a very small group of people, you know, anyone can make millions, but you know, losing them, that takes a real art. And, you know, and I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had let fear paralyze me. And so what I have always asked myself is, would I do this even if it fails?

44:45And when I can say this is worth doing, even if it fails, I can move forward with so much intention and fear doesn't have mastery over my life. And I think the problem sometimes is we want to do things that succeed rather than things that are actually significant and meaningful for our lives. I don't really have like goals the way other people have. You don't have like financial goals. I'm not trying to make millions and millions of dollars. I'm not trying to buy, you know, mansions or airplanes. My life is really measured by is this worth my life? And if I fail, will I still find a deep sense of satisfaction that I tried this?

45:30Yeah. What's the line, draw this line between self -love, self - belief and overcoming fear? Do these things fit together? Are they exactly the same or is there something different going on? Well, there's definitely a difference between loving yourself and being in love with yourself, right? And one is very healthy and one is narcissistic. And I think when you're in love with yourself, you refuse to look at yourself honestly and you lack self -awareness. But when you love yourself, you see your flaws, you see your faults, you see your shortcomings, you see where you're deficient. But you do not let that be the basis of your worth.

46:14And I do think one of the significant shifts that has to happen in our lives is a lot of people are fighting for their worth and they're trying to succeed to prove their worth. It's so much better to accept your worth and to move from your worth rather than trying to move towards your worth. And what I would say to most people with about when it comes to self -love is really loving yourself is about understanding your worth and value without having to accomplish anything else in life. This has been for me an incredibly liberating thing. And again, my faith has deeply rooted to that. The idea of Christ, that there is a God that He sees me, values me, and loves me without condition, then I go, okay, if I'm loved without condition, nothing I do expands that love, elevates that love or makes it more real.

47:07is just there. And so now I can live my life from that worth, from that value, and it's incredibly liberating. And I think I understand in the small sense as a parent, you know, I have a son, Aaron, and a daughter, Mariah, and 36 and 33, and nothing they do changes or elevates or increases is how much I love them. Now, I've been proud of them at different times at different levels for different things, but love is a different thing. I love Aaron and Mariah, and that's the baseline. And if I'm capable of that, as a really flawed, broken human being, I'm actually convinced that that is the driving principle of the universe, and that that is really the essence of who God is.

48:00And so that's how I began. Wouldn't it be lovely if we could love ourselves in the way that we quite easily love the people around us? It would, I think it's harder to love ourselves when we're really honest about who we are. But if you cannot love yourself, you cannot really fully love another human being. Because that human being is flawed too. That human being is imperfect too. And if you're always trying to, in a sense, earn your own love, you're gonna treat other people the same way. And I think when was liberating things in the world is to realize that love is not conditional. That if love exists at all, love is unconditional.

48:47And for me, that is a basis of everything I do in my life. I don't wake up in the morning going, I need to find a way to be loved. I don't wake up in the morning going, I got to go earn my value. I do not wake up in the morning going. I got to go prove my worth. I wake up in the morning going, I'm free and I'm alive and I get to choose and create and this is going to be fun. One of my friends took a medium dose of mushrooms in Australia and sat on a rock and this question came to him which was, do people love you for who you are or for what you do. And it's a difficult question to answer because what we want is for people to love us for who we are because if people love us what we do, it feels contingent and dependent and fragile and volatile and like if people love us for what we do not for who we are and we stopped doing what we do, the love would go away with it.

49:44But a even deeper question is, well, do you love you for what you do or for who you are. Because a lot of the time I think we asked the world to show up for us in a way that we're not prepared to show up for ourselves. It's saying, hey, I want you to love me for who I am not for what I do. Meanwhile, my self -love will be contingent based on my performance today, not my character over time. Yeah. And I think that maybe there's a slight third option between loving you for who you are and for what you do. They love you for who you are to them. And that's why we end up putting on so many different personas and have so many different mass and life can be so exhausting when you think that person loves you for who you are to them.

50:27And if that changes in any way, then that love changes as well. And yeah, I actually think we're the greatest achievements in life, Chris, is to come to a place where you accept your own imperfection and you love yourself not based on your own evaluation of yourself, but on the fact that you've been created with value. You know, I mean, what is value anyway? I remember working with all these Wall Street investors and we're talking about economics. One guy said, you know, all I only believe in economics, you know, and I said, well, I would agree as long as you believe that economics are just simply an assessment of value that we human beings decide what something is worth.

51:11And he goes, yeah, no, I agree with that. And I mean, it's so random. We decide gold has value. We decide diamonds have value, right? We decide avocados have value, whatever it is, right? And those things change based on our own preferences or own opinions or perspectives. But it's the same with human beings. You know, when a human being has value to us because they contribute something to us, then we consider them to have value. And if our personal value is based on what other people project our value is, we're slaves. We become absolutely captured by the opinion of other people. And that's why you can't let someone else decide whether you're gold or diamonds or avocado.

51:58So you have to decide your own value in life and go, I have value because I exist. And I have value because I am a unique human being. And I can work from that value and I can work from that love. And I don't actually know how you find that. And I admit my limitation. I don't know how you find that without a relationship with God. And I think it's a very difficult thing because it's a serial. like what is the outside determiner that tells you your value and and that for me is like been so life transforming to go I know I have in transit value I believe I've been created in God's image and likeness but I also believe every human being is created in God's image and likeness and that every human being has in transit value and so it's my responsibility and my privilege to treat every human being with that kind of value in that unconditional love.

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53:47And if you're still unsure, they've got a 90 day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it every single day for three months, and if you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. You can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3, K2 and 5 free AG1 travel packs by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1 .com slash modern wisdom. That's drinkag1 .com slash modern wisdom. Just going back to that difference between our expectations and our performance, how do you come to think about how people can balance that high expectations with the things, with things that they need to be grateful for, with things that they do well?

54:27This sort of balance of pursuing perfectionism and also giving yourself grace when you fall short. I think this is kind of one of the curses of competent or high performing people. So, yesterday we have this space we call the arena where we do some coaching, it's a mastermind that connects around the world. And we talked about the tensions between gratitude and ambition. And so, each one of these core -like virtues, like humility and the tension with confidence and then faithfulness with the tension or productivity. Because there's some basic virtues that we want to have. We want to be people who are humble and want to be individual or grateful.

55:04But we also have these attributes we must have which are ambition and confidence and and sometimes we confuse humility and confidence as in opposition with each other when actually they work in a in a very harmonic way that when you when you're truly humble you have great confidence because you have a clear picture of yourself and And humility is not the same thing as a lack of self -confidence. It's not a sense of insignificance. You can only truly be humble if you know your power. Only a truly powerful person can express real humility. Otherwise, it's just weakness. It's just timidity. It's mildness.

55:49And when you know your strength, that's when you can actually be truly humble. And so I tell people, no, there's not attention here. This is actually synergy. Truly humble people are powerful people truly grateful people are Ambitious people. They're not in conflict with each other ambition is not is not an anti virtue You know people will say to me well being ambitious, but don't be too ambitious I want to wait wait wait wait a minute. Would you say to me? Have integrity, but don't have too much integrity or would you say you know? Well, be loving, but don't be too loving. It's like whenever we think something's a virtue, you cannot have too much of it.

56:31But we actually don't think ambition is a virtue. But ambition is actually a virtue. It's just that selfish ambition is corruptive. And so when we look at ambition, it is not an opposition with gratitude. Grateful people are more ambitious because they become more generative. By the way, I don't think it's incidental that the word generosity comes from the same etymology as the word generative. You cannot be truly generous if you are not fully generative. And so a grateful person takes full responsibility for all their talents, all of their intelligence, all their potential, all their capacity, and optimizes that for the good of others.

57:14I think people who live only for themselves are the greediest people in the world because they have so much work capacity to do good for other people. There's also a pressure that comes along with that though. The fact that if you realize just how much you could contribute, that sets an even higher ideal, right? And then there's a pain when you realize, oh, even though I think I've been working hard, I've been working hard in a very particular kind of way in a way that's very selfish. And in a way that was serving me and my shallow need for recognition, validation, and to fill this internal void.

57:48and so the people think that I'm cool and so I can fix the wounds from my past without fixing the wounds from my past by filling them in with the adoration of those around me. No, I absolutely had the student who graduated from UCLA in Evis from El Salvador, which is the same place I'm from, I'm from El Salvador and as an immigrant, but his parents were immigrants. So he's now the son of an immigrant and his parents became incredibly successful in the US. And now he gets to go to UCLA, they pay the tuition. So they've paid an immense amount of money for him to go to school. He graduates near the top of his class.

58:21And after he graduates, he says to me, I'm not sure what I'm going to do next. And I said, well, what do you want to do with your life? He goes, you mean to pay the bills? And I'm like, your parents just put hundreds of thousands of dollars to send you to the one of the prestigious universities in the world, not so you could just pay the bills. But so you could start a company that that employs a thousand people and provides food for 5 ,000 families. And how could you ever graduate from UCLA and think your optimal goal is to pay the bills? And I do think it does put responsibility on us and I'm okay with that.

59:00I'm okay saying that when you have more opportunity, you have more responsibility. I'm okay putting that pressure on people saying if you've been given a higher IQ, you have more responsibility to make the world better. If you've been given extraordinary talents or capacity, you know, some unique skill or ability, you have a high responsibility to make a difference in the world. And I do take that stewardship really, really important. And seriously in my own life, going, if I have any ability, if I have any intelligence, if I have any talent or any capacity, that hasn't been given to me so that I could revel in it and just enjoy myself because I'm so awesome.

59:42If I've been given any unique capacity, it's because I have a higher responsibility to do good in the world and to help other people live lives that they could not live without my help. The responsibility of capacity is very interesting, but painful, right? Because again, with that, oh God, I've got this thing that I need to deal with and I need to grapple with it and it's more complex and it's going to cause me turmoil and the other thinking, and now you're saying that I need to pay it forward. That makes me... Absolutely. Yep. And your life will feel meaningless if you don't pay it forward. I think that's sort of like the interesting catch -22 in this is that how many people you met who have accomplished so much and have accumulated so many things and they're just hollow and empty inside.

1:00:27I remember years ago I was working a bit more in the film industry and I was trying to get some scripts produced and things. And I got a phone call that this billionaire up in Beverly Hills wanted to meet with me. And by the way, he didn't know much about me. So that was great because I could just come in as a writer. And so I drive up to his house and I get to a gate and I have to send him my name and they open the gate. And I drive up another road to go up into the hills. I didn't even know someone could have that much land in Beverly Hills. and I'm sitting in his house and he shows up late and he sits down and goes, you get 45 minutes.

1:01:05I mean, there was no warrant. There was no, hey, it's great to meet you. You know, so glad to have you here. It was very cut and dry. And about 30 or 45 minutes in, he asked me a question and he said, can we meet tomorrow? And I said, yeah, yeah, we can meet tomorrow. He goes, how about two o 'clock? Or so I said, yeah, I'll be here at two o 'clock. and I left so excited going, this guy's gonna fund my movies. This is gonna be awesome. And the next day I show up and we're walking on his property and he's like, this is where I think like Ben Affleck and all the boys come play volleyball and he's just, you know, talking it up and everything like that.

1:01:45And I said, so why did you ask me to come back up? And he goes, when you walked in the room, you have this inner peace. And I've been searching for inner peace all my life. And I have all this wealth that have all this stuff. And I have no peace. And so I was just hoping maybe you could help me fear I had to find peace in my life. And, you know, I know I'm always supposed to be a person who has higher ideals and I'm always trying to, you know, help people at the deepest spiritual level, but it's slightly disappointed, you know, that he did not want to fund one of my films, but he was actually looking for the inner peace that had brought him to the room.

1:02:22And I think this is the reality, Chris, is that But when we spend our lives consuming, we become emotional, psychological, and spiritual black holes. We just consume and consume and consume and it brings no joy. It brings no meaning and brings no lasting happiness. But when we live our lives to serve other people, I don't think you can, you cannot get too rich. You can become too greedy. You cannot have too much wealth. You can have, but you can be possessed by your wealth. And so it really isn't about how much you have, it's about how much has you. And when you live a life of generosity and live a life where you're determined to do good in the world, I don't think it ruins you.

1:03:11I think what ruins you is when it owns you, rather than when you own it. I love it. Dude, I'm so glad that we got to speak today. I've wanted to sit down with you ever since I saw you. talk last year. Oh, and MacMannis, ladies and gentlemen, why should people go? They want to keep up today with everything that you've got going on. Oh, man. Thank you. One, Chris, I have to tell you, I'm, I've become such a huge fan. I love your work. I love your interviews. You have an incredibly brilliant mind and your your ability to cut through all the chaos and lack of clarity is a real gift to the world. And so I just want to let you know that I consider the privilege to come on because I I'm a fan and I just love your work.

1:03:54You can go to urwinmechmanis .com and Access the different spaces. We have like the arena mastermind and we do a conference or two here in LA I have a few books that I've written my newest book is the seven frequencies of communication the book that you're actually We're speaking to me about today was is called mine shift and about internal mental structures But if you just want to know more go to urwamakemanus .com but mostly I'm just really glad to get to be here with you Chris. I can. I appreciate you man. Until next time. Alright take care.