#957 - Anne-Laure Le Cunff - How To Live Freely In A Goal-Obsessed World

29:23They're again coming from this place of wanting to be in control and this is very, very something that people can keep up with for a very long time. When their little system breaks down, a lot of people respond with self -blame and self -judgment and so that creates this vicious cycle where they then try to be even more in control to prove to themselves that they can be in control. It seems like we're always unconsciously seeking structure in one form or another. Is there a neuroscience explanation for why people have an addiction to productivity even when it hurts us? So it's not necessarily a neuroscience explanation.

30:09It's more of a psychological one. but it really comes back to the fact that we are social animals. And again, if you go back to our evolutionary past, being rejected from the tribe also meant death. And so in order to not be rejected from the tribe, you had to prove that you were useful, that you were not that way, that whatever resources you needed, you also contributed back to society. So there is already a natural tendency to prove your worth to the people around you. That's the kind of that's already embedded as part of our human nature. And then you have today's societies where we have actually created metrics to measure that we have metrics of success.

31:02We have KPIs, OKR's, leader boards, we have social media. We have so many ways now to publicly measure how successful a person is and how good of a contributor they are to society. And so that exacerbates that anxiety, that natural anxiety that we have already of saying, hey, I matter, I'm a good contributor, I'm productive. Yeah, that public productivity of sort of conspicuous effort, a lot of the time I think causes people to... I mean, it's the same reason why... I'm sure you probably know this, I think it's organizational psychology. If you have a meeting that's got more than four people in it and everybody agrees on the outcome, the chance of one person objecting to the outcome even if they don't fully believe it goes up.

31:55It's like, oh, well, you know, I certainly think that we could do with having another look at the thing. It's like, dude, everyone was happy with this. But there's just this sense of, if you think a little bit deeper, even if your first instinct is this thing's fine, that sounds like being thoughtful. It looks a lot like doing the work and contributing, but it could just be an unnecessary obstacle that you've decided to throw in front of everyone. Oh, absolutely. There are so many incentives in today's society to look like you're contributing without actually contributing. And I actually saw that when I was working at Google at the very beginning of my career, that a lot of engineers that were better at showing the work that they've done, they've done.

32:44Even if it wasn't a big thing, who who spend 20 % of their time building typing code and then 80 % of their time telling people that they've done the thing. We're promoted a lot faster than the engineers that were doing the reverse where they were spending 80 % of their time actually fixing the product and making it better. Yeah, there's an interesting blend, I guess, whenever you're in a team, you need to spend and enough time contributing so that people don't think you're a freeloader, but you also need to spend enough time reputation managing so that people actually see that you did do like, and if you can work a little bit and then multiply it by doing more reputation management, then why not?

33:31Yeah, no, exactly. And I would recommend that anyone who's doing good work is actually also taking the time and making the effort to let other people know about their good work. Because nobody's going to know what you've contributed if you're not telling them. Nobody's following you and paying attention. You need to let them know. But it can become a problem at a larger scale when that ratio is out of whack. And when people are spending more time actually talking about their work, then actually doing work. This episode is brought to you by Jim Shark. Jim Shark makes the best Jimware. On the planet, their hybrid shorts in Onyx Gray and Navy are a complete game changer that the best men's training shorts in the world, they've got a crest hoodie, which is what I'm flying in any time I'm traveling in there.

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34:54That's gym .sh slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom 10. A checkout. Yeah, on the sort of compensatory control reduction of uncertainty, this need for experimentation and exploration, does that mean that it's sort of inevitable for people to run out of steam after they've pursued something for a long enough time, even if it was something that once was superbly aligned and mission driven and highly motivating? Is it, it's just going to happen that there's a life cycle to your desire to do that thing. It really depends on how much self -complexity you have in your life. So, self -complexity is basically the number of identities that you have.

35:41And so, you know, you could be, for example, an entrepreneur and a father and a writer and a marathon runner. So, you have those four identities. What's great about having high self -complexity, so you have several of those identities, is that when one of these identities is not something that is working really well right now for whatever reason, and those reasons could be external. I don't know, maybe you hurt yourself and you can't run, or it could be internal. Maybe you lost interest in one of your hobbies, or maybe you keep on fighting with your spouse or whatever it is. Then you have your other identities where you can still thrive and explore.

36:23What's really nice to you is that when you do this, you can actually pause some of those identities that you have and not put as much energy into them and come back to them whenever your level of curiosity and excitement and all of that is replenished and you actually want to start again. A lot of people burn out of their ideas or get bored or decide to stop fully because it's the only one thing that they're pursuing. They put all of their eggs in the same basket. And so at some point when they feel like they don't want to do that thing anymore, they just move on to the next thing. And so for these people not being interested in a current idea anymore means that you have to move on to a new one.

37:08versus actually you know what I'm taking a break from this, I might come back to it later. And so the people who have this high level of self -complexity, you could see them actually still pursuing a hobby that they started in their 20s and now they're in their 60s. And if you ask them, have you been doing this consistently every week for your entire life? They'll tell you no, absolutely not actually. I had five years when I didn't do any woodworking or whatever. I was more interested in something else. But then I came back to it. So self complexity allows people when they begin to run out of steam or they get a little bit bored with something because there are other places that they can be kept busy, take a sense of purpose, pleasure, belonging from as opposed to completely having to exit the position because there's only one position.

38:02That position is able to stay open and they They can do some other stuff and then go back to it as opposed to people whose entire identity is wrapped up in one thing. I suppose there's an interesting tension going on there between wanting a routine because you know that iterating and consistency and habits are where most progress comes from and boredom because by doing a small number of things more consistently, you are speeding up the pace of which you're going to get sick of doing them, it feels like there's a little tension going on there. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think the idea here is not necessarily to start new things and abandon them every two weeks, right?

38:50Self complexity is based on different senses of identity. And so if you want to have those identities, you need to inhabit them for long enough that you actually develop an identity here. So it's really not about having a thousand things going on at the same time and barely paying attention to them. It's more about maybe having four or five different kind of routines going on, but also allowing yourself, if at some point you feel like your heart is not in it right now, to pause this and come back to it later. It's really the idea of almost like, instead of being mono -passion, and then when that passion is gone, you feel like that's the end.

39:35This relationship is over. I'm moving on to the next one of having a more of a, you know, being poly -passionate, where you feel like, okay, that's like I'm more interested in someone else right now, something else, and I'll come back to this relationship later on. What about time anxiety? Talk to me about that. So time anxiety is the fear that you're not making the most of your time. And it's based on the very quantitative definition of time. So there's something I find really interesting is that in English there's just one word time. and in French my native language is the same, just Tom and a lot of languages on you have one word for time.

40:21But in ancient Greek they had two words for time, cronost and chyrost. Cronost is our definition of time, quantitative, where it's the time of seconds and minutes and weeks and month and there's really this feeling that you have this limited amount of time and you need to fill it with as much stuff as possible. And that living a full life is filling all of these boxes with as much stuff as you can. I don't know if you've seen your familiar with the Tim Urban's, your life in weeks, visual, right? It's gone viral so many times now that I think most people can see it. And it's really showing your life as the series of identity -called boxes, which a lot of people report gives them anxiety to look at and seeing this that could fit on a little posted note with all of these little boxes and feeling like, oh, I'm already halfway and those are the boxes that I have left.

41:23This is time anxiety. The ancient Greeks had another word again for time, which is Cairo's, which is a more qualitative definition of time. And it's the idea that time is elastic. That it's not a series of identical boxes, but that some moments can stretch forever, where some moments can go really fast. And an example, I can give you, I think, with all experiences when you're chatting with a friend, and all of a sudden you look at your phone or your watch, and you see the time, and you feel like, what happened? Or has the time gone? And that's a chiro's moment that experiencing chiro's where you can't you don't know it was it five minutes was a two hours You have no idea and this is because we experienced this this depth of time and when you focus on chiro's You have a lot less time anxiety because you're not so obsessed with doing as much as you can with your life You're instead really trying to optimize for having really deep experiences What does focusing on chiro's mean from a Tactical perspective.

42:34So, it's really about being intentional with how you spend your time, not based on the quantity of work that you want to produce, not based on your productivity, but based on the depth of the experience. And so, to give you a few examples, focusing on Kairos is knowing that maybe right now the best way to spend your time is actually to read a bedtime story to your kid instead of finishing that presentation. Maybe the best way to spend your time right now is taking a nap or reading a book or going outside and stretch or taking a walk. Maybe the best time to spend your work, your time right now is actually to get into hyper -focus mode and finish that piece of work or that essay that you're working on and that you really want to get done.

43:29And so really focusing on each moment, the depth of the experience and really which I'm very aware is hard to measure but your your sense of aliveness. How alive does this moment feel for you? The more robotic you feel, the more you're in chronostime. The more organic and alive every moment feels in terms of the decisions that you're making and the way you're spending your energy and your attention, the more you're in chirostime. I think a lot of people feel a sense of shame when they let go of busyness and sort of driving forward, maybe toward that purpose, maybe towards some sort of undefined, undetermined sense of progress.

44:17But yeah, there's a lot of discomfort and shame around that. We live in a cronos society. And so even though we know that for our mental health and well -being, the more we spend, we live in chyrostime, the better it is for us. It is the reality that our entire society is designed around the rules of Kronos. So we all use our calendars to know where we should be at what time. This is how we're having this conversation right now because we say let's meet at this time and have this conversation. We all have deadlines. If you're working at any kind of company, you have projects with a project plan and you have deliverables.

45:02And in addition to this, there is this chronos timeline that we have all created for ourselves that says that you are supposed to have achieved certain things by a certain age. So you're supposed to have children by this age. You're supposed to have bought your first house by this age to have found a partner by this age. You're supposed to have saved X amount of money by this age, right? So it's really no wonder that people have this time anxiety that you just described where this pressure and this sense of shame if they're not ticking all of the boxes in the right order at the right speed. I think this is completely normal.

45:38And so again, in an ideal world, we would all be in Kyrostime, but instead, what I really recommend is just trying to carve out a little bit of Kyrostime in your life. It doesn't have to be all the time because again not always possible. But what would it look like if on the Sunday, you took a couple of hours and you said that's my carous moment. Just listening to yourself, what do I actually want to do right now? If I forget about success, productivity, if I forget about the timeline, what do I want to do in this moment and just practicing doing this, even though it will feel a bit uncomfortable at the beginning?

46:17What would be your advice for someone who's very burned out, struggling with passion and doesn't even know what to start experimenting with. Where would they begin? It always always starts with observation. I see a lot of people suffering even more when they're in that situation, when they feel stuck. Because they're a little bit like people drowning and moving a lot and trying to get back to the surface, they're just trying everything. They feel like they need to find a solution right now. And what you're describing here, being a bit lost, not knowing where you're going, and feeling a little bit burned out, that is actually a liminal space that we've talked about.

47:07So this is an example where you can practice instead of trying to get to the other side as quickly as possible, instead of trying to find the solution as quickly as possible, really staying in that space and observing. So just like an anthropologist that's going to go and study a new culture, you can observe your own life without any kind of judgment. You're just observing this life, which you can pretend you know nothing about. And you can ask questions like, why do I care about this? Why do I spend my time like this? Why do I spend my energy and my attention like this? What am I curious about?

47:47What am I excited about? What gives me energy? What drains my energy? And you can take little notes. You can do that for just 24 hours. And really remember that you're not trying to find a solution here. You just observing the current situation. And it's only when you've started observing the current situation that you can start noticing little patterns, little things that you might want to experiment with. And so things that you've been doing maybe on autopilot for years routines that you have that have become deeply ingrained. Ways of thinking that seemed obvious before you started actually observing them.

48:26Those can be the seeds of tiny experiments where you can say, okay, wait a minute, it doesn't necessarily have to be this way. So what could be different? What could I try here? From a brain science perspective, what does novelty and experimentation do? What's the effect that it has on the brain? It basically gives you, not that I want to say, there's no good or bad kind of dopamine, but a more positive type of activation of the dopamine -ergic system. in the sense that it gives you the sense of reward through novel experiences. And what's really addictive with social media, a lot of modern experiences is the variable reward schedule.

49:13So the idea that you don't know where you're going to get next. When you scroll on social media, you don't know is it going to be interesting or not I'm not sure I keep on scrolling. When you experiment, you're actually creating that kind of variable reward schedule for your life. You try something and you're not quite sure whether this is going to work or not. And especially if you keep your experiments tiny, you're not taking a really big risk here, right? You're just trying something new for a short period of time, seeing whether that's going to work or not. If it works, it's great. And if it doesn't, you can tweak something and go for another iteration.

49:50And so in a way, it's really a way to almost cook your brain on personal growth where you want to know what's going to happen next. You want to try and you have this novelty seeking, but that is targeted at self discovery. In other news, you might have heard me say that hold luggage is a sionp meant to keep you poor and late. And while that's true, it turns out that when a brand puts hundreds of hours into design and organization and durability, suddenly checking a bag doesn't feel quite so much like a trap, it actually feels like an upgrade, which is what nomatics done with their new method check -in luggage.

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51:01So you can buy your new luggage, try it out for a month, if you don't like it, but give your money back. Right now, you can get a 20 % discount, see everything I use and recommend by going to the link in the description below, or heading to nomatic .com slash modern wisdom. That's nomatic .com slash modern wisdom. Okay, so given that you've done an awful lot of these different experiments, which one, in your opinion, has had the most surprising impact, or which one could you have not predicted the most?

51:38Probably in my YouTube experiment. I, um, so a few years ago, I don't know why, but a lot of my friends decided to start YouTube channels and they were all super excited about it. Everybody was saying you need to create a YouTube channel, you need to be on YouTube. And up to this point, just kind of doing what other people around me were doing when it came to creating content online and those kind of things. It kind of worked, right? It's just people say, start a newsletter. I experimented with that, liked it, and I kept on going, had a blog and all of that. I created a Twitter account, etc. And so I felt like, okay, my friends like it.

52:21Let's experiment with this. And so I did a tiny experiment where I said, until the end of the year, I'm going to record myself and post a video on YouTube every week. And in terms of external results, it was okay. People liked it. The growth was okay to the point where if I had only looked at that, I probably should have kept going. But what was surprising to me is that I absolutely hated recording those videos. Really hated it. To the point where anytime I had to sit down in front of the camera one day, if I knew on the first day that in the afternoon, I was supposed to sit down and record myself.

53:01My level of procrastination on everything else was through the roof. I was not able to work on anything else. I kept on thinking, oh, I have to record this thing tonight. And that was surprising to me in the sense that up to this point, there hadn't really been anything on the internet. I felt uncomfortable doing. I had been sharing all of my thoughts, learning in public. I grew up with the internet. I've always been really comfortable with it. And that one thing, somehow, is not my thing. And so I learned, I discovered that about myself. And the great thing about this experiment is that some people might say, oh, it's a failed experiment.

53:44She didn't continue with her YouTube channel. But to me, it's a success because now I know I'm not wandering anymore. When I see my friends who have very successful YouTube channels, I'm not looking at them and feeling like, oh, should I do that? I know that I shouldn't because I don't like it. Yeah, I suppose that's the unseen benefit of something not working, is that you know that you don't need to try it anymore. Yeah, exactly. I've literally been there done that not for me. And again, it really frees up a lot of your mental energy to focus on the things that actually matter. and that you actually enjoy working on.

54:28What is the science of what actually makes a habit stick in the brain then? Well, you need to do it enough times. First, there is a contraption to what a lot of people are saying. It doesn't take 21 days. We actually don't know how long it takes. It varies a lot across people and it varies a lot depending on what habit you're trying to build and where you're starting from. But we know it does take quite a few repetitions in order to build a habit. So that's one thing. Second, enjoying it does make it a lot easier. We form habits a lot quicker if we actually like what we're doing. And a third, a sense of progress in the sense that if there's a habit that's a little bit difficult to build at the beginning, feeling like every time you do it, you get a little bit better and it's a little bit easier.

55:18is going to make it a lot stick here. Because again, you want to see where you're going to go. So if you're trying to build a walking habit, for example, you want to go for a walk every day, just noticing that every day you can walk for a few more minutes. So it's a little bit easier to get started. That's also going to help you build habits faster. What about, I mean, it's, I mean, Austin, Texas. It is the home of the cold plunge. What's the physiology behind why cold works so well? So I actually don't know. I haven't read anything about that. And I've tried the cold plunge once in my entire life.

56:00Okay. And yeah. And I can see just from personal experience, I could tell why people got addicted to it. It felt actually it felt really, really good. But yeah, I don't know. I haven't read any of the research about that. I see. That could have been, that might be the next one. I know you looked at posture and how posture is sort of related to mental health and the way that our bodies respond. I thought power poses had been completely debunked in a replication crisis, but I don't know. Maybe all of that's actually been double debunked. No, no, no, it's been debunked. So I actually, it's interesting because this is an example I give all the time about my blog where I actually, I wrote an article about power posing and then read a research paper, then someone replied and said, Hey, that has been debunked.

57:00I hadn't seen it. So I posted then another news that are saying that's been debunked. And I left the previous one and linked to the new one saying, Hey, I'm sorry. basically. And this is something that I really like about learning in public is that you can actually make mistakes and then say I was wrong and that's okay. So yeah, I did write about it and then I wrote about the paper where it's been debunked and I don't think it's been double debunked. It's fully poppy debunks. Right. Okay. So what should we do with our past year? Does it matter at all? Well, I mean, it does matter for your back.

57:38So yeah, good posture is important.

57:43And, you know, if it makes you feel more confident, there's no problem with that, but there's no difference between that. And in between feeling like you want to wear a nice shirt or you want to feel like you have a nice mustache or a nice haircut or whatever it is that makes you feel confident. But you don't need like a psychology study to tell you that whatever you do to make you feel confident can help. Right. I have been harping on for a while about the challenges of caffeine early in the morning, especially with cortisol response and the way that court is all in adrenaline, sort of contribute to each other.

58:25That also kind of got replication crisis, but it seems like it might actually be true. So what have you learned about the sort of court is all response on a morning and the way that caffeine interacts with that? Yeah, this is still debated. So yeah, you're right that there is a bit of a replication crisis around it. But there are enough other challenges around using caffeine early in the morning that it actually might be worth it for anyone who's wonder, I go, can I can I get back to drinking a lot of coffee as soon as I wake up. I think a good incentive to wait for more research is that drinking a lot of coffee has also been linked with higher anxiety, with trouble sleeping in the evening.

59:11There are a lot of other issues that are less debated in general that have to do with consumption of caffeine in general, not necessarily in the morning, but consumption of caffeine in general that I think are enough of an incentive to wait until there's more research. If you're one of the people who has managed to stop drinking coffee in the morning, I'm not one of these people And I know about the research that I still drink coffee first thing in the morning It's a bit like the doctors that are smoking cigarettes, you know, it's just say So do as the research maybe says, but I'm not too sure, but not as I do.

59:51Yeah Yes exactly What about dopamine loops on a morning? It seems it's strange morning times are really weird for me evening times too, but morning times especially. I've woken up either to classic music, like classical stuff, or talking NPR style radio for probably the best part of a decade, because I found that if I woke up to music, and it was even the most marginally memorable song, My brain was like super permeable. First thing in the morning. I don't know what it is about it, but for some reason, you know, oh, I guess it's just Miley Cyrus party in the USA for the rest of my Tuesday afternoon because, you know, I woke up and the radio station decided to play Miley Cyrus this morning.

1:00:44So what's happening with dopamine in the morning with the state of the brain when we first wake up? Yeah. What you're talking about, by the way, has less to do with dopamine than more to do with the fact that you're still half asleep. And when we're asleep, we're still processing a lot of information, but in a very open way, where we're not consciously processing information. And so whatever comes in and whatever we're dreaming or thinking about our brain takes that phase value basically. And so those first couple of minutes, anything that you hear or that you listen then is going to be integrated as part of your memories.

1:01:28So actually really good. Yeah, so good intuition to go with something you'd rather put in your brain, rather than my list iris. Okay, what about dopamine loops? What else is happening in the morning? So dopamine loops, so in the morning, the problem that a lot of people have experienced is that whatever source of dopamine that you're getting in the in the morning is then going to be something that you're going to keep on seeking over and over again throughout the day. And so this is why I think a lot of people know that, but it doesn't mean they're using that information and acting on it. But we all know that opening your phone and scrolling through social media first thing in the morning is one of the worst things that you can do.

1:02:13And if you manage to delay doing that as much as possible, and wait until you're fully awake, and that your prefrontal cortex is fully active. A little bit later in the morning, this is when you have the more willpower. And so you're more likely to be able later in the day to open social media, have a quick look to do whatever's called, whatever stories of your friends that you want to check and then close it. If first thing in the morning, well, again, you're in that very vulnerable state. You start calling on social media. You're going to make your brain crave that same source of dopamine for the rest of the day, it's going to be a lot harder for you to control yourself and to control those cravings.

1:02:57Can you think about an adaptive reason for why that mechanism exists? Why would it be that the first thing that gives us dopamine in the morning would be the thing that we try and chase for the rest of the day? I'm not denying that that's a pattern that happens. I can certainly see it in some areas of my own life, but I cannot work out why we have that. This is fully, fully hypothetical, but to meet a potential evolutionary explanation to this is that in the past, and if you even look at tribes nowadays with this is where they do most of the evolutionary research, you have days dedicated to certain tasks.

1:03:44So there is a day where people go hunting or gathering. There is a day that is for resting, that is a day that is for like batch cooking or mending their clothes or whatever it is. And so I wonder if in a society where we used to have, you know, each day had a purpose where you knew that's what you had to do that day, there wasn't more value in being primed in a way with whatever it is, where you're supposed to get your dopamine from today. If you started your day focusing on talking about hunting and whatever, and then you were ready and primed and you could go and do that for the rest of the day and you would get really excited.

1:04:28Whereas today we're doing a thousand different things throughout the day. That mechanism doesn't really work as well. Also, the source of dopamine that we get early in the My not necessarily be the one we we want to be craving for the rest of the day and it's hyper normal. It's a dose way higher than we would have got previously. Yeah. That's very interesting. I like look, this is the home of pro science. So you are among friends here. If you want to speculate and pontificate about different potential reasons for why this theory might exist. What about the other end of the day then on a nighttime?

1:05:05How can we trick our brain into better sleep? So again, I think a lot of people know that already blue light, avoiding being on the screen, having an evening routine. I think the one thing really to keep in mind, which is going to sound so obvious when I say it, but somehow people ignore it is that by the end of the day, you're tired. You're tired. You don't have enough energy to make good decisions anymore. So anything you can do earlier in the day to facilitate good decision -making in the evening is going to help you sleep better. So, you know, maybe don't have a TV in your bedroom if you can avoid doing that.

1:05:54Maybe have your phone charger outside of the bedroom as well. Maybe, you know, I'm saying, I'm just thinking about screens because I see so many people who literally watch TV while having dinner and then they go to the bedroom and they watch more TV while in bed. Get rid of the screens. But as I'm saying this and I know not many people are actually going to do it, it's definitely one of those things where again, because your energy stores are so depleted in the evening, it's actually really, really hard to make good decisions. So environmental design, anything you can do to design your environment, where even if you have one brain cell that's still working in the evening, you're still going to make the right decision, this is really the best investment you can make.

1:06:44Yeah, it's a, you know, the two ends of the day seem to be the areas that people make a ton of bad decisions.

1:06:53Everybody fucks up and we are in a world that's designed to capture your attention, but you do have these two windows that are weirdly absorbent or kind of influential. And if you were going to spend your time on screens being stimulated by dopamine, bundling that into the middle of the day is if that was a decision, you can move around the proportion of how all of this different stuff happens. But yeah, I like the idea of making easy decisions better. I think putting the phone charger outside of your bedroom is a very easy solution for this and for anybody that uses their phone for their alarm.

1:07:33Radio alarm clocks have been around for a hundred years. So I think that excuse I'm not convinced quite works. Yeah, it's a very strange thing to think about how much what we consider of as ingrained thought patterns or a part of our nature is actually some weird reflection of a habit or an activity or an action that we keep on doing to ourselves. And before we know it, we're kind of being puppeted internally by a thing that we did externally. No, absolutely. And there's also, I think, you know, we need to have a bit of a self -compassion also when it comes to these things because a lot of the being on our screens calling through social media watching TV in the evening, for a lot of us this is a numbing mechanism, a coping mechanism to deal with stress and anxiety.

1:08:33A lot of people come back from work tired and stressed and the only way they can disconnect that they know of because again, it's just so easy, right? You just turn the TV on or you go and you scroll through social media. And so I think also giving ourselves a little bit of grace and knowing that this is what's going on is important. And so as you said, maybe start implementing easy, small changes. It doesn't have to be perfect. So charge your outside of the room and also putting a timer in terms of how long you stay on social media in the evening. After, or maybe saying, no scrolling while I'm eating, I'm going to eat and I'm not going to look at any screen when I do that.

1:09:20There are small changes that you can do, and if it's not perfect, it's okay. I love it. Where should people go? Don't want to keep up to date with all of the things that you're doing. So, people can find my book, Tiny Experiments, anywhere books are sold. I talk about, I love the topics that we discuss together in it, and I have a newsletter at nestlabs .com, which I send every Thursday. Heck yeah, I appreciate you very much. Thank you for the day. Thank you.