#975 - James Bloodworth - The Manosphere, Pickup Culture & Male Loneliness

27:07If we know nothing of Coke, why do we buy the Coca -Cola over the own brand, Cola? And it's kind of like, it's a way of making the decision really quickly that, well, all these other people have bought this, so I'm just going to buy this. Well, I get a celebrity endorsement or something. And with the way there's so much information on the internet now, I think sometimes our brains kind of differ to just looking for the status or clout that a person has, like the number of tributes and likes that people are paying to them. And just a kind of way to cut through the influence, the blue check mark is another kind of example of that stuff.

27:39Whereas it's kind of not always the best way to, I mean, it's not just with influences, it's just everywhere. It's not always the best way of making a decision that you trust someone more just because they have more kind of clout. And I think online it gets into particularly perilous waters where people can gain clout for kind of all kinds of stupid things. Like, you know, there are kind of a lot of influences now and there are people like Tate, I think, just saying really outrageous things. But then the kid who encounters him when he's got like three million followers or something, he may, you know, he may not have seen all the other things, but it's like, oh, well, you know, your brain kind of, oh, I see the three million followers.

28:15I'm going to listen to this guy more than kind of the person maybe, maybe Richard Reeves, you know, who doesn't have as many followers, but is going to give a much more substantive message. I think that's an issue with the incident and the way our kind of brains work and try to filter information quickly because you haven't got the time obviously to judge everything on its mirrors. Yeah. What sort of people are the lost boys? Who is it that you think are the audience members that are being spoken to? I mean, all kinds of boys. So, I mean, when I was 22, 23, I went on a pick -up art is bootcamp because I was, yeah, like 20 years ago this year.

28:5220 years ago next year in fact. I was just like, very shy, living in the countryside, went back to college, thought it had fixed all of my problems, and then realized like there's still this kind of unbridgeable golf between me and this girl I liked. And it's just, I don't know what, never had a dad growing up. But then again, I don't know if that would always be helpful in that respect, because my friends never asked their dad, they'd rather die than ask their dad for like dating advice. But I had these issues around like, what the hell do I do? I felt kind of locked into myself when it came to that stuff.

29:23And so, you know, there were gurus on the answer who promised to have all the answers. And that was like very appealing to me. Other guys that met is like, they just, yeah, they just wanted a few pointers in that space, kind of like where I came from. And then the more you hang around it, the more you kind of start to absorb the real ideology behind it, the more you start your interactions become kind of more salesy and manipulative. like you meet those guys and they've been around it for a few years, it's like talking to kind of an insurance salesman or something. Everything's kind of monitoring all the variables when they're talking to you.

29:58Other guys just like they had abusive parents, I met guys who they felt like they were never enough for their parents. Like they always diminished as being kind of soft like guys like their setfiles bullied them, their mothers bullied them. So you have that. You also did, I did meet guys who were just like manipulative and wanted to, they had, they had an issue with women to start with and it just made them a more effective like manipulators. That was why they got it. It was like, there was all sorts of people. There wasn't really a type. Often though, the thing with, with the newer influences in the manuscript is they were, they, like we set, we often told about radicalization like, what was the vulnerability, which kind of made someone susceptible to that content?

30:42And that's like an important conversation, whether it's man -as -fair, Islamism, far right, whatever, that's an important thing. But the difference now, I think, with social media, is often the right, the insecurity is almost created by the creator themselves in some ways. So you have a 13 -year -old kid who is on social media or something, and is seeing these influences say, propagate the 80 -20 rule that we live in this post -monogamy society where you're never going to get a sexual partner, you're never going to get a girlfriend, unless you kind of conform to this very narrow stereotype of what like an elite man, like an alpha male is.

31:20And then these guys come along and then present themselves, like, diminish the person, say, oh, you're just a, yeah, you're just a basic soy boy. And really kind of knock their confidence down, kind of like a cult, and then come along, present themselves as like a savior and guide. and you buy if you buy my course for $10 ,000, $10 ,000, I will fix you and I will, yeah, there's one guru in my book that says, you know, this is like Noah's Ark, bro. You know, you're going to be one of the surplus men, but there's a few places for you on Noah's Ark, so you just got to sign up and put your credit card details in and you can live a lifestyle like mine.

31:55And then you look at his lifestyle on social media and if you didn't know any better, you think that this is insane. Like, down bulls' area type type stuff. And if, you know, even if you're not a 13 year old boy, that stuff can be quite compelling. Like, what the house is, who the house is guy? Like, you kind of, you're in tree, if nothing else. But if you're kind of a teenage boy, and it's being like circumvent in any other socialization from your family, or your schoolteachers, or whatever, and just stretch your phone, it's like, I want to be like, this guy, I don't want to like, you do, to be like my dad who hates his job or something.

32:26It's It's quite a seductive thing. They're kind of seducing you in a way, manipulating you and pushing you down that sales funnel. And in the process, making you feel bad, like advertising does even outside of the manus fear sometimes. What has that? That suggests that it would be quite upward aiming. That there would be some sort of improvement that would come out the other side that there would be results that would happen and that these men who go into it, that yeah, maybe the manus fear is using some manipulative tactics. It's creating a void that they are able to fill with courses and retreats and boot camps and stuff like that.

33:05But the suggestion here would be that out the other side of it, you have an improved human, about a human who is more of themselves. But it seems like you're suggesting that it kind of becomes a trap, is sort of liminal space that people end up in. So I'm trying to square this circle of how it can be that the answer is being suggested by this thing, but that then it pushes people further into sort of more victimhood ideologies. Yeah, I mean, it becomes a bit like, like, shelf health. So you must, I'm guessing you've heard that phrase, that shelf health where... No, what's that? Like, where people get like, people get in a stuck in a cycle of like, self -help programs because because they get addicted to the good emotions and the promise of change.

33:52But then, with that actually changing. So you can see how that can, you go to a Tony Robbins seminar or something and no shade on people who do that or anything. As an example, you walk across the hot coals or something and then you get this thrill from being around all these people, you know, we're going to change our lives. And then for whatever reason, because life is complicated, it doesn't happen, but you kind of get addicted to kind of the good feelings you have at these seminars. And I've kind of seen some of the stuff I attended during the research for the book. How I kind of addicted addicted that could be, these people kind of present you if you just follow this roadmap, like anything is possible.

34:29And it is really kind of, I know you can leave those places like really excited. And then the good emotions kind of diminish over time. And then the only way to get them back is to go to another kind of seminar. But also these gurus as well, the blame is always put on the student. So you go to these courses, there's kind of an implicit no refunds policy. So you go to these courses and if you don't achieve your dream life or whatever, the blame is always put on you in that kind of, so there's that up by the bootstraps thing, but it's your fault if you don't achieve it. They've laid at the roadmap or maybe you just need the extra this extra course that you know you maybe you need the gold the gold products or the platinum the platinum course and then if you buy that that's that's probably what you need bro there's there's this kind of they keep you in that perpetual thing giving you these things that don't really work and then you come back it's like well this didn't work and it's like well you didn't you didn't apply it properly or you know this course wasn't quite right for you maybe you need this different guru but there's a lot of people trapped in that cyclotmet who just go from Bant's from one guru to the next.

35:38And it's all variations of this kind of same thing. There's an idea called spiritual bypass from the psychedelic community and it describes a person who goes to the Amazon rainforest and drinks ayahuasca and has this peak spiritual experience but doesn't actually integrate any of the lessons and comes back just the same asshole that they were when they left. And then goes and does the same thing again. You kind of see it like spiritual tourism as well that this person goes on holiday to have this peak experience and then comes back and is kind of addicted to that without the integration of the change.

36:15And I get the sense that it's not too dissimilar. I mean, at least with drinking ayahuasca, you can reliably be reliably informed that something's going to happen. I suppose the level of authenticity and legitimacy of some of the advice that's coming out of different areas of the internet. For both men and women, it is maybe not quite as powerful as Iowaska would be. I'm going to guess that you saw the article in the Guardian, society may have overestimated the risk of the Manusphere UK researchers say this off -com thing. So for the people that didn't see it, it said, many who engage are discriminating and value -driven whether minority consuming extremely misogynistic content, a study for off -com suggests, they found that while a minority encountered extremely misogynistic content, many users of the Manusphere were critically engaged, selective and capable of discarding messages that did not resonate with their values.

37:03I think this is still in the aftershock of adolescence and sort of the conversation that was kicked off as a broader part of that. But it is nice to see the overtoned window, kind of the bottom end of the overtoned window in the UK, you can see with the Guardian and in the US you might be able to see with the New York Times. So the New York Times recently did a piece that was like a maybe ADHD is being overdiagnosed in young boys. Oh my god, if the New York Times is saying it, and it's kind of the same with the Guardian, hell, like this is really hit the mainstream now. This is a real big deal.

37:34They've really pushed it too far, making these claims about the dangers of the, the atmosphere. But what, what is the end goal risk that you're concerned about when it comes to a pipeline of content in this sort of a way? Yeah, so I mean, the, the, the study, yeah, you mentioned it. I saw, I didn't see this study. And I think the issue with that would go back to also our definition, what we talked about the definition of the manus fist So they also included Joe Rogan as people who watch Joe Rogan as part of the manus fit So like to me hearing that it's like well, it's not surprising that to me that people who watch Joe Rogan have a whole bunch of different views You know and and and are a you know the everyone watches Joe Rogan isn't gonna be an Andrew take isn't gonna see an Andrew take video and say Oh, this guy's you know this guy's like right on the money So I mean, I think their different definition was too broad to start with.

38:24I think with, so the ADHD, what you mentioned ADHD, I think there is a parallel in some ways between that in just kind of a conversational way between like ADHD is massively over diagnosed among, say, private school kids, for example, because it's very costly to get a private ADHD diagnosis, but it's under, under diagnosed among prisoners. So you have a lot of people in prison who display ADHD, adjacent behaviors or if they had actually a test they probably test for ADHD. And then you have a bunch of other people who are overdignosed because it's basically become a bit of a cheat code in some not just private schools but in private schools that is kind of a cheat code you get kind of extra exam time similar in a way to being dyslexic could be back when back when I was younger.

39:16There's that kind of, there's kind of two sets of people who that sort of affects. So it's like, is it over diagnosed? Well, yes and no. And with the manus fear, like adolescence was kind of a moral panic in some ways. Like you could say, our most people who consume manus fear content gonna go and murder their classmate. It's like, absolutely not. Absolutely not. There's examples of people who've done that stuff. like Elliot Roger, Linda McLeod was kind of a, I would classify that as a red pill murder that took place in 2021 in Denver, Colorado. But for the most part, that's not what's happening when people are consuming this content.

39:53But I would say there's a lot of stuff that's going on in relationships, I think, which can be negatively influenced by people watching this content. So you do see some attitudes from the mainstream, like the 80 -20 rule permeating the mainstream. So I saw Paul recently at Gen Z men, and a majority think that women are just attracted to a small subset of men. That's something the majority think of that age group thinks now, which to me, that's a transposition of the 80s, 20 rule on to kind of dating. You see kind of, is most 15 to 15 year olds know who Andrew Tate is, and a course that have a positive view of him, which is a lot of those people are going to be getting into relationships are going to be conversing with the girls at their school.

40:41My auntie's a school teacher and says, you know, anecdotally, that there are boys who've come into school and have been kind of mading this stuff, telling women, telling girls to like make a sandwich, telling female teachers to like get to the kitchen and stuff. And it's like like then like verbatim, Andrew takes off. So I think it's more a low level thing, like a low level nuisance, but also if people already have that kind of predisposition for being for domestic violence, kind of giving that kind of veneer of justification to that stuff. I think there's a more prosaic concern that this stuff happens behind closed doors, you know?

41:16That is kind of rationalizing some of that stuff. I'd be very interested to know what the real world results of this end up being. I don't know if we're seeing increases in domestic violence due to manosphere content. And I certainly don't think given the amount of lonely, sexless, unengaged men that we have seen a concordant amount of violence, anti -social behavior orders and sort of... You should say also, guys ruining their own, blowing up their own relationships by embracing this stuff. So if you, there's, I mean, when I was researching this stuff, I used to go on the X -Red Pill Forum. And you'd have guys on their posting about, you know, I embrace this stuff and, you know, my brothers, you know, my brothers embrace this stuff now, how do I kind of de -radicalize them?

42:07But you also started to get women coming on the site, like my boyfriend's started to, you know, refuses to show any emotion, refuses to do his bit of the housework and stuff, because he's been listening to these people. Or like, I've lost the love of my life because this guy's been listening to like alpha male dating systems or some like one of these programs. So I think it's also guys ruining their own romantic prospects sometimes by following this stuff. And yeah, we don't hear it really hear about this stuff, but it's generally not contributing to the sum of human happiness. That's a good point.

42:40Yeah, the super kinetic newsworthy headlines might not be what happens, but you might have a particular type of virus that just low level damages the sort of foundations. What do you think happens to male identity when some of the traditional roles, like like protector, provider, and I guess as well, pro creator, start to dissolve a little bit. What sort of a role is that playing here? Yeah, I think that's part of it. So I mean, there's a recalibration going on. Richard Reeves obviously talks about this and talks about how fatherhood can be a kind of a new proactive added entity. I think, for those who do have children or plans or I think that's really good.

43:20I think that's a really good thing to anchor identity right. But obviously that's not going to be everything because many people don't have children or You know life can't be just I think for men and women always it can't just be like not everyone wants to just anchor their whole life around the Children I mean there's a recalibration going on and there's definitely There were definitely men in the atmosphere who don't feel that they have status in society because Those old roles that their fathers grandfathers especially had Um, I no longer there and especially among working class people so So in my last book was going to like former industrial areas of England where you have a very strong like if you like your miners were like the aristocracy of the working class, that was kind of how they saw themselves, that was how they carried themselves.

44:05And there was a sense that you know, even if they didn't have, you know, loads and loads of money, there was that dignity, there was that you're doing something that not that many people can do because it's really hard, that physical that physicality of the lady you doing the economy is much more like you know servers economy it's much more kind of feminine if you like whereas it's much more about kind of human relationships is not that brute force anymore. And I think I do think yeah it is difficult I mean we have to I don't think we should re -industrialize again I think that's kind of like that that just doesn't really make sense because what are we going to compete with like Chinese steel or something or it's like you you have to you have to kind of keep moving forward I think.

44:44But at the same time the a lot of these This is Manus Fur Influences telling men that you shouldn't go to college, that education makes you a beta male. That's harmful as well because I think that you're kind of, we are in this more professional world where you do need to have more credentialized world where you do even like, even a pointless university degree in some ways you need to get your foot in the door of some jobs and it's actually harmful telling men that, you know, well the education system is feminized so you shouldn't do this. I think they're contributing to it to a start for a start.

45:14But also like it's hard because the provider role, I mean, I want to live in a society where women feel like they can do what, like have the same freedoms I have, they can pursue a career. If a woman earns more than me, which actually my girlfriend does earn more than me, funnily enough, but I don't feel like I'm escalated by it. And that's fine. And it's like, I don't feel like she's going to leave me if my like, because I'm freelance, my income can be like kind of up and down. And if I have a, a, a follow year, I don't feel like she's going to just immediately leave me and she hasn't. So, um, there, I, that proves my point.

45:51But it's like, and an end of one over here. But it, but it can be, that can be something when you've grown up in a world where men do have these very kind of fixed roles. And then then someone comes along for the manuscript and says, yeah, you know, your, your, your, your ground up is right. You need to be the provider, whatever, but that world doesn't exist anymore. It creates a sense of cognitive dissonance, which I think them breathes a resentment that the insecurity the anger that well You know, maybe she will leave me if I don't kind of have a six figure eight and come also in by the time of 25 Yeah, I think it is represented by the fact that on average most women want to date a man that earns more than them The hypogemia is still there.

46:28There's a really interesting study that I looked at from IFS that just came out so the if you're in the bottom 40 % of of earners for men, then your wife likely earns, or your partner likely earns more than you. And if you're in the top 20 % of earners for women, then it's likely that you earn more than your male partner as well. So we have got, at the bottom end of the distribution for men at the top end of the distribution for women, we have got either primary bread winner in the first instance or at least over earner in the second instance. But for the vast majority of the middle of it, it's working in another direction.

47:04I do think, you know, this is something the ugly truth behind a lot of this stuff is that we can, we have a world which is changing more quickly than our preferences can adapt to it, and that there are a lot of kernels of truth in much of the evolutionary psychology underpinnings that then kind of get run with and turned into extreme that do take a would suggest. But then on the flip side to completely deny the fact that like how many women say that, you know, these guys, they're just, they're just not very mature. You know, they haven't got their life together. Or does it mean by that? They can mean that he probably doesn't have any goals.

47:46He probably doesn't have direction. He's not that fight up about his job. He doesn't, he's not going to make me feel safe in the fact that in future, if we have children, I feel like he's going to be able to look after us. Yes, living costs have gone up, which means that a single family, single parent income for two people to raise a third, right? Is difficult. So you go, the kernels of truth, I think, is kind of what burst out into this. Yeah. I mean, I think it's difficult with some of that stuff because I wouldn't discount anything you said there. But I also think it's hard to know with this stuff.

48:24So I don't just miss like evolution psychology. I think the idea that evolution kind of stocked from the neck up with is just kind of a bit. Yeah, that doesn't really, that doesn't really make sense to me. But at the same time, I think it's hard to, it's hard to disentangle some of the nature and nurture stuff. So I mean, yeah, it doesn't surprise me that, that say, young women would want a man, a man who earns the same or more than them. When, if they, if they have a kid, it's, uh, women's like earnings just kind of shoot down in this country in Britain. We have like two weeks paternity leave if you, if you're a guy.

48:58So kind of the women's expected to take the time off work and kind of jettison her career very often. So I mean, yeah, I wouldn't say that therefore, you know, that means it's definitely all like nurture. I think it's just difficult, really difficult to disentangle those things. And we also do have some way to go in terms of in terms of sorting out some of the cultural stuff around, like things like paternity leave and valuing the role of fathers in a nurturing role as well. And I think, again, Richard Reeves is very good on this. So, yeah, it doesn't surprise me. Even if you take out the biological stuff, which I'm sure some of that is right, is actually still having that influence.

49:40Even if you take out that, I think there'd still be the same kind of impetus to find a higher earning partner because simply what happens to women when they have a kid and the career drop off, yeah. Yeah. You've got this, quote, progressive institutions are telling men to embrace tolerance and equality, meanwhile in their day to day lives, they have to compete in an economic system that rewarded ruthless accumulation and coming out on top. Yeah, I mean, sorry. You are not. You go on. Go on. It's just that. That is a good identification of the crossroads, I think, the rare. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I think some of the kind of progressive rhetoric around, especially in the late 2000s, the kind of high -proteinity politics era where it's like Lockheed Martin has the like pride flag or I know we need more disabled drone pilots or this kind of that you just fix a side that the kind of Hillary Clinton elite feminism whatever where you just fix society by kind of having like a one -legged lesbian in the boardroom and you know therefore like socialism or just kind of obviously I exaggerating for effect, but it's like there was that kind of identity politics where you have these kind of lovies, like celebrity figures, you have these big companies who constantly preaching equality and Amazon, you know, Amazon does this.

51:06Amazon did was doing this anyway, not anymore, but it was doing this in the 2000s and it's like I went undercover at an Amazon warehouse and it's like workers pissing in coat bottles because they can't get toilet broke. So there's that kind of hypocrisy there. Like preaching to men, also I think this manifests in a way, like preaching to men to take up less space, that the future is female, that you're the problem, that basically, you being born was like you winning the lottery, basically. It's like just pipe it by, by dent of being like a white male. And then you grow up as like in certain places in the UK or America or Europe or wherever.

51:45And life is a sharp, elbowed struggle where you have to kind of be a bit of a dick, a bit of an arsehole, a bit dominant, a bit like sometimes you have to be like assert yourself. Sometimes you have to be a bit bit like at least fake it so you make it be a bit like dominant. You have to kind of not be the guy who's like pushed down, who doesn't speak up, who's who's meek or whatever. And I think it's particularly in the US. So from the time I spent there, and you know, all just like poorer countries in the UK, the US is obviously richer, but it has a different economic model. But if my girlfriend's from Brazil, and if you like, you go to Brazil, and it's like, there's a much more masculine that the culture there is much more like machismo.

52:26And part of that you can say is like, yeah, that's partly because there's just kind of, it's less progressive in terms of gender roles. Yes, that's true. But it's also just because it's like a survival thing. Just in this environment where you have to be a bit more masculine you have to be a bit more like predict strength a bit more Because otherwise you're just gonna get like crushed under underfoot basically And I just think that's that hypocrisy there where you have an economic system which does reward That kind of striving that kind of assertiveness like you go into a border or something and you have to kind of Command attention while at the same time telling like young men in particular that well, no, you just need to be quiet You just need to take up less space and yeah, some people that's true for them some people They do need to do that but then for people like me when I was younger or like for other guys That's not not what they need to hear they will take that to heart and then it leaves them in even worse place than they were before Why is there no left wing minus for you?

53:24I mean, yeah, I mean that's that's a good question. I mean why is then I think Why is there no left wing minus fit if the minus furious and anti -feminist movement? and I think that makes sense. But why is, I think a good question is, like why is there, why is like going to the gym and lifting weights, for example, often treated with suspicion in like the pages of comment is free in the Guardian or something? I don't know. I think it's partly snobbery because it tends to be something that working class guys do more than middle class guys. It's just like a cultural gap. So there's that lack of relatability, which also is why, I think you see more lower middle class, working class men getting into something like Joe Rogan because like that kind of the also didactic aspects of it where you didn't have formal learning but oh, let's go to talk to this like astrophysicist or something, that's cool, like I'm in it, since that and also the relatability like, oh, this guy also goes to the gym, this guy also, you know, isn't averse to smoking a bit of weed or something.

54:25Someone who kind of is a bit of a, you know, has tattoos or whatever, there's just that kind of superficial aspect which also works against guys as well sometimes from these kind of upper middle class people in the media which it mostly is who kind of just look down on people like that. I suppose that might explain as well why more working class men seem to be leaning right and not leaning left. Despite the fact that essentially the party of the left is supposed to be the party of the working class and about lifting up class issues, not race issues or gender issues? Yeah. So I mean, there's there's a whole bunch of stuff like to unpack with that in that it's less electorally important for the left.

55:07The left doesn't really have that constituency anymore of that unionized men that had in the past in the UK, the US, blood that blue collar, the red wolf, boat is called in the UK. It does it. It's kind of fractured. It's kind of fracturing. it's not really that core constituency anymore, so it doesn't feel the need to, it prefers to talk to people in cities, graduates, liberal graduates, and cities. That's part of it. And I also think, yeah, the professionalization of politics as well. So you have a great distance between politicians and just the kind of people they represent, which is mostly like, tends to be, you know, lots of, of, of, of, of, of, of class people, you know, that's the biggest, most people don't have own capital, most people are kind of working class.

55:51And also I think the death of local journalism is a big factor in that stuff as well. So just the distance between the professional class of politicians, Oxbridge, private school often and just kind of working class people, especially among left leading parties, they just kind of, it just that you can't really relate to the people you're, I think you can't really relate to the people you're voting for, which I do think is on some level quite important. And Trump talks about that, even though I think he does less for men, a working class men than the Democrats, he talks about them, he acknowledges them, whereas Kamala Harris in the US election, they had an OK platform from what I remember for working class people and men included, but they're kind of very diverse to talk and acknowledging that men have problems as well.

56:38So I think that's kind of sunk some of these progressive movements. Yeah, do you think progressiveism is kind of uncomfortable at acknowledging male suffering unless it's villainized in that way? Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, that intersectionality, like this theory, I think the problem with the law, that kind of distinct hierarchy of oppression. So, so black men are more likely to end up in prison or more likely to be stocked by the police or more like to be failed by the school, by the education system in the United States than black women, but because that kind of hierarchy, they're seen as like, as kind of, they have more power than black women, even though it's complex, you know.

57:25I think these rigid tax enemies of oppressor oppressed lead to these situations where men's issues are often neglected. the fact that men can be victims of domestic violence, the fact that the men can. So I had a stalker a few years ago, and it was actually, when you talk about that, I don't think it elicits the same reaction as it does when a woman talks about having a stalker. And yeah, maybe because the threat of violence is not there, but it's still, I think emotionally, that can be, it's a terrible experience. And yeah, I have friends who have the same thing, and it doesn't, it's kind of seen as a joke if you're a guy and you kind of go through that stuff.

58:07So yeah, there is a bit of a double standard, I think. I wonder what a truly inclusive or male -inclusive progressive politics would look like. Like actually, I actually can't envision that you turn at the moment. I think that the intersecting hierarchy and the grievance culture doesn't really leave much room for that. So I get the sense that But it's a little bit of a, um, a gaudy and not until something changes quite fundamentally. I mean, I think the problem is the way we see our opponents politically is often shaped by a lot of social media to make a kind of trite point. But I think so, if I go to, so I'm kind of sent a left, if I go to a, I know, conservative club or conservative meter, whatever, have a glass of wine, of course.

58:58And I'll probably meet people there who I have a nice interaction with, have a nice conversation with and could be friends with But then my impression sometimes if I spend a bunch of time online is like the The the conservatives who get promoted up the fill the right wing and sometimes you get promoted up the feed It's like all who who just have that kind of Who figured out the algorithm whatever it tends to be the most shrill voices the most narcissistic voices but also the same is true on the left as well. So I mean, particularly a few years ago, you have like feminists on Twitter, the ones who are kind of rising to the top is like kill all men and all this kind of horrible, like rhetoric.

59:39But then if you actually go to some kind of, you know, garden -variety feminist and they're not gonna treat you like, they think that, they're not gonna treat you as kind of your concerns, they matter. I haven't found that when I actually get out in the world away from the on -ice stuff, that people are more complex. And I think sometimes we kind of we did think that online everyone's kind of siloed into their own kind of information ecosystems where you're not seeing the opponents. I think it's actually that you see the worst of, I mean this isn't really original point, but you see the worst of your opponents and that becomes like the left is like they're all these like communists and you know they want to turn the Britain into Venezuela or Americans of Venezuela.

1:00:19It's like most of the kind of milk toast people who have a kind of mixed like complex nuance views about stuff. So I think social media is big part of the way we see our opponents in this like really black and white negative light. The online world is not the real world shock horror. Well, it increasingly is, which I think is probably the problem. This is a great a great point that Frey are indeed made to me last year, which was people make that point and they say the online world is not the real world. Why are people getting so caught up in whatever it is that they're seeing on the internet. But if you are a young guy or girl who spends six hours or eight hours a day of screen time, you're spending more time on your screen than you are asleep.

1:00:57The online world is the real world to you. It's how you mediate most of your experiences. You're definitely speaking to more people and seeing more people on the internet than you are in real life unless you're an outbound tele sales person. So yeah, it's an interesting challenge because you're not going to get in and sanitize the internet, you're not going to be able to counteract this. I'm interested in how you think about blending a desire to inspire men and give them something aspirational to look up to, to actually speak to what it is that they want while trying to not have predatory tactics or this sense of lack that can create a vacuum that they get sucked into, going to all go in the other direction and not understand what it is that men watch.

1:01:48There was this breakdown of something else to do with the manosphere and an accusation thrown at Jordan Peterson that he was promoting ideas of mastery, self -discipline and hard work often linked with problematic views. It's like come on, holy fuck. Like not only is it totally tone deaf to not understand why that would be attractive to guys, but also look at any woman and say, hey, do you think that discipline and self -mastery and hard work would be the kind of trait that you would look for in a future partner? And I bet that the author, female author of that article, as well as also, it's like the rules for thee, but not for me thing.

1:02:26I just squaring this circle, finding a culturally acceptable in the modern world with all of the shit that's happened and all the rest of it, but attractive to men, place for the narrative and the communication to go. Is that an intractable problem? Is that just, are we in two different worlds at the moment with what culture finds acceptable and what men find attractive? Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's intractable. I think that a big problem that I encountered with the, like, my journey through the manus first, so to speak, is it's attaching status, is viewing women as status objects and at driving your status from power over women.

1:03:10So women is kind of a form of property or that kind of so an interesting example I use in the book is you see on the red pill spaces you see some admiration for like Vladimir Putin which you know there's a whole bunch of stuff to unpack there but Putin's like they see Putin's like the alpha male and one thing Putin did was he decriminalized domestic violence in Russia, partially decriminalized domestic violence. It's like why would he do that? And it's partly because he has nothing to offer Russian men apart from like poverty, war, but you know you may feel like this outside of the home but at least in your home you can feel like a feudal lord, so you can dominate your family.

1:03:49So there is that kind of sense that the part of the masculine role is you in the home, you're basically like an oligarch. You have that kind of, and something similar was done in the South, in the American South, before the Civil War, where they got working, the Confederate got working class people, white working class men on side by saying that, you may have little stake in society, but at least you're above the kind of black population. At least you can kind of, you're an oligarch in terms of you can only slave. There is that kind of, I think masculinity, So on the one hand, it's masculinity to me is like being comfortable in your own skin, which can take a long time growing up you try on various like facemiles like very do like various facades where you know be the alpha male or be the like goth or like be the punk or whatever But like getting older it becomes easier.

1:04:47You kind of realize that no one cared like all along What you were doing and you kind of just become comfortable like you stopped giving so much of a fuck But that's part of it. But it's also, I think, when we talk about being the provider and protector, I think, yeah, there's aspects of that that can be really positive. But it's also, as men, I think, stop, we need to kind of stop deriving our status from the woman on our arm or the woman who we have kind of at home as like in the past, it would be kind of a helper and like servant. I'm not saying it's like that in most relationships nowadays.

1:05:22days, but I think sometimes that kind of feeling of a woman is kind of a trophy object for like a correct performance of masculinity. And finally enough, when I think when people stop doing that, they also do better in with the opposite sex as well. It's kind of one of those weird paradoxes that you sort of only learn when it's too late as you kind of but I'm 42 now, you kind of learn it as you get older and I've seen lots of guys go through this thing where you stop caring and then you kind of become more comfortable in your own skin and you don't kind of need those kind of external things so much.

1:05:53Again, it's a working progress. I'm not saying that I'm kind of enlightened or like the Buddha or something. But you become kind of where you're not deriving status so much from those external things, including what other guys think of like your partner or something or whatever or just like that kind of thing you think you should have. And yeah, I think there's something to that. Yeah, I think like I remember you listen to Eckhart's whole, the pickup guys recommended like Eckhart's Hall and it's like yeah there's actually something to that kind of not putting so much into like attachments and I think part of that is also like not seeing women as state subjects seeing them as like fellow human beings they're not like from you know it's not like Mars Venus it's like we're more similar than we are different even though it's fine to talk about the differences I think that's that's part of it and I think I think we're still working through that it's like we're talking now and it's like we're still kind of the whole thing is like we're still kind of working through that whole thing.

1:06:48It's like relatively recent that, you know, people like my mom, my mom, weren't allowed to kind of, weren't treated the same way in the workplaces like, you know, man, and it's still kind of, we're still working through it. So yeah, I do think, I don't think it's, I think it's too soon to say that there are kind of irreconcilable differences there. We're just kind of, all of these conversations are part of the working through Yeah, it's an interesting challenge to think what can we do to play the game that men are naturally predisposed to? I get what you mean about not seeing women as status objects, probably not good to like wear them like you would a new Rolex.

1:07:31But on the flip side, it is unrealistic to tell men that they shouldn't derive a sense of satisfaction from being selected by a woman. You know, it's one of the reasons that I'm quite bearish on VR girlfriends. In the same way as no guy really flexes how many only fans girls he subscribes to. How much porn he's watched? Exactly. The reason there is positive reinforcement, the reason that a man feels good when he is with a woman, presumably one that he likes is that there is a sense that there were many potential suitors for her and he was chosen. But if all you need is the price of a cheeseburger per month to pay for this only fan model subscription or to get this VR girlfriend, then that's not quite the same.

1:08:22Now I might eat my own words in three years time when everyone's fucking addicted to VR only fans or something with an Apple Vision Pro number three on the heads. I just get the sense that so much of what men want is to feel competent and part of feeling competent also involves feeling competent with women and that involves being chosen. So even with that, I totally understand what you mean. And you know, the best interpretation of it is, hey, treat them like people. That's probably a good place to start. But on the flip side of that, I would struggle to, I think most girls would say, yeah, I want my partner to feel proud that they're with me.

1:09:03I actually, there's a bit of me that kind of finds it a turn on for them to see me like a little bit of a trophy like fuck like I got this goal. I'm special. I'm lucky to be with her. And again, the devil is in the details. And as we become ever more like internet autistic because we're spending so little time communicating face to face, the nuance of this, which is both things the truth at the same time. Probably a good idea to treat women as actual humans. Also, both you and her will like the fact that you treat her like a delicate fucking prize, like something that was worthy of working hard for, because if you don't, if you say, okay, like, you know, don't treat them like a trophy, it's a very slippery slope to be like, well, you're not going to treat them well.

1:09:50It's like, why should you pay for the first day? Why should you hold the door open for them? And I'm aware that that's not what you're saying. But you know what I mean? Like all of this stuff, when you look at it through an analytical mindset, which is what everybody's doing because everything is so sanitized and sterilized, right? You're not you're not spending time observing things in context. You're looking at them in isolation. This 10 second TikTok on Street interview, this video, which is not contextualized. You don't know the person. You haven't spent time building them up. So I think that's a challenge.

1:10:21And I think the other side is so much of the dating advice for men, even the most modern, in fact, as much the modern iteration as the old pick -up artist stuff, but in a much more subtle way that doesn't kind of identify itself up front, almost none of it is actually advising men how to do things that are good for long -term relationship development. So for instance, kind of the term being thrown around of being a simp within a relationship, that if you were to post a photo on your Instagram of some flowers that you bought your girlfriend, your girlfriend that you've been with for six months, there is a pretty sizable cohort of guys who are red -pilled that would say, can't believe that you're sipping for her bro, like we've already lost him.

1:11:10It's like, we're in a fucking relationship. Like, where does the line get drawn between me doing something nice for my partner and in your opinion, like buying her affection by being so pliable as to need to offer flowers in exchange for love and adoration. And you go, okay, so there is this sort of weird push and pull dynamic where you're purposefully withholding a level of love and connection and care and attention and affection for your partner because that's like being too pliable. And maybe if it was the first date and you turned up with the fucking huge book bouquet of flowers. Yes, that probably would be a little bit too much.

1:11:52That would be coming on to strong. Telling her, make sure that you text me when you get in to let me know that you've got home safe. What, you know, all of the thing. But six months in or one year in, like it's a very different world and actually the things that you do then are about deepening connection. And unfortunately, so much of the advice gets centered around real short term mating strategies, which is fine if that's what you want, but as you've seen with sort of whatever is red pill rehab or XXPUA, PUA hate or whatever, these guys get, they feel resentful for that because they think fuck like I actually, especially as they grow up in the age out and it doesn't take that long for guys to age out, as they do age out, they get to the stage where they go, I really like the idea of someone I want to watch that new Netflix documentary about the Vian Amwar with most evenings.

1:12:45And the only tactic that I have is withholding love, which necessarily caps the amount of investment I can get from a good one in any case. Yeah, it's like, I'm gonna just go and neck and go a friend of a year or whatever. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Just like stuck in that loop. Just you say something nice, you just nigger. Yeah, I mean, there's a balance, It's like moderation in all things, I suppose. So, so yeah, there's nothing wrong with, you know, go out to a nice restaurant, you have your girlfriend's like made lots of effort, it looks really nice. There's nothing wrong with obviously being proud.

1:13:23And yeah, it does feel like you kind of, you feel kind of like the shit as well. There's nothing wrong with that. I'd say the problem is when it becomes like, there's a slippery slope almost in both directions where the problem becomes where you make that kind of a philosophy where you kind of, you need the validation of almost other men or other people to kind of validate your choices. Like you, you, you, you start to value that person. So I met, I met guys who got into the man's fair who were in the pickup staff in the status, maxing scene who would like, they always didn't know what they wanted.

1:13:56So you'd ask them like, what is your type? And it's like they're going after women who is to impress their friends or to impress, or for social media or to impress these other guys and it's like they're not happy. It's like, but like you've got to figure out, you've got to drill down on what makes you happy and what your type is, someone who you have a, some of you're physically attracted to, but also someone you have a kind of great vibe with. And I think that kind of, once you start kind of doing it as some performative thing, so making that a philosophy of your life, then it becomes difficult.

1:14:24It doesn't mean don't enjoy those, doesn't mean don't enjoy having nice things and having people kind of giving that glance of like, slightly envious, it's like, yeah, there's kind of a buzz and stuff, but it's not making it kind of the centipedes of your life. Like, there's more to life than girls, there's more to life than, you know, having a nice car, whatever it is, you know, not to compare those two things, but there's more, there's more to life than having kind of people admiring you, you know. But also, like, the other aspect of that, the thing, those, some of those like red pill guys do get right, and I will say that is in a relationship, you shouldn't just like stagnate, you shouldn't just be like, well, you know, I've met friends of mine.

1:15:01I've had friends of mine who've said like, yeah, if you've got married, it's like, I'm just going to let myself go now. Yeah, people put on loads of weight, like, to stop going to the gym. And it's kind of disrespectful to the partner that you do have to, like, it's not necessary. It shouldn't be unconditional, that kind of relationship. I think to some degree, like, yeah, like if one person gets afflicted with some illness or something, then I think, I think, you know, you should stand by them. There's a deeper love that you draw on. There's a deeper love that, you know, a connection that you draw on.

1:15:34But you should just have respect for yourself and respect for the other person. Try and keep your shirt together, you know, in a relationship, go to the gym, keep your, you know, work stuff on point, make sure you're, you're not, you know, getting fired or like slacking it. What, you know, it's not only increasingly right -wing here, James. Yeah, but it's kind of respect for the other person, you know, like, because otherwise if you don't do that stuff, you're gonna, you're expecting them to kind of bail you out. And I do think there's an element of that. Like, you don't just like have a, you don't just get married or something and then that you just like stop.

1:16:03That's it. That's like everything that's like I've I've caught her. I've like caught her now. So I don't need to like do anything. I think you know, you should keep on top of your stuff as well. Because yeah, otherwise you're more like I think to have problems down the line. They're more like for those kind of resentments to creep into the relationship. Even if they, you know, I'm not spoken out loud, I do Do you think that's of important? James Bloodworth, ladies and gentlemen, James, it's a timely for you to be digging into this stuff. And I think whatever the next few years, it feels like this circle's gonna have to square at least a little bit.

1:16:41In politics, it's gonna have to happen because if young men keep getting ignored by the left, that's not going to be good for them. So there's gonna have to be some sort of a pivot there. I think that the crisis of men and boys in schools, mental health, self harm, suicide, stuff like that, it's just the retreat from education and employment, the dearth of eligible partners that is going to affect both men and women, men are going to be lonely, women are going to be lonely, both right, like, you know, there is, it's a real concatenation of problems very timely for you to do your deep dive into it.

1:17:14Where should people go? They're going to want to check out all of the stuff that you've got going on. Yeah, thank you for Chris and it's nice to be back as well. I mean, yeah, lost boys, personal journey through the manosphere is my book. It's at in all good bookstores, also non -good bookstores, less good bookstores, but it doesn't make any difference to me like I still get paid. So yeah, you can find it in Waterstones, Amazon, wherever. And you're shouting at people on Twitter as well. Yes, so Twitter, I'm Jay, underscore Bloodworth, Instagram is James .Bloodworth. That's it. Okay, James, I appreciate you man, until your next time.

1:17:50Thank you, Chris. Congratulations, you made it to the end of the episode, and if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? One.