#997 - Bonnie Blue & Louise Perry - The Modern Sex Work Debate

54:30And they'll have some guy choke them and they find it terrifying. Particularly if it's something you don't really know, you're like, is this guy going to murder me? Yeah, but they think, oh, I'm going to go along with it because it looks sexy or the guy thinks it's attractive. And I always say, like, in porn, that's never discussed. And I do think that should change. It should be, look, in this video, you know when you, like, watch American's Got Talent or Brit's Got Talent, it's like, don't try this at home. or this is done by an expert, Pornhub or other platforms should say, look, within this content, there's extreme.

54:56The choking is done in a safe environment and it's content that you're supposed to be fought. You want the jackass, this program contains strobe lighting effects. Yeah. But how many teenage boys did try what was on jackass, right? Everybody in my school. For sure. Despite saying this was done by trained professionals do not try jackass. Yeah, at least you sort of know because some of these people that watch porn, they're not intelligent or they don't know or they've gone from sex education at school, which middle-aged teacher, not been laid anything, I'm not listening to anything you say. You might have had a quick chat with your parents, maybe your uncle or a brother has mentioned a few techniques.

55:30That's it. You feel as a guy, oh, okay, I just need to try and give this crazy performance. I'm going to get rough, slapping, hair pulling and give her this crazy sex. And she probably doesn't like it. She's going to be too nervous to say. But in the sex I have with these 18 year olds or sometimes older because they're not very experienced, I explain to them how I enjoy to be choked, how long to choked before no move your hand down a little bit and that's all left in I don't edit that out I don't crop it you see that in the video and discussing consent isn't weird it's sexy it's sexy to say to a guy I really like it when you do this or can you do this or you know stick another finger in whereas most porn it looks like this most perfect art performance and when I used to do porn I used to do that I used to edit out all the bits where I've had to stop and get some extra a lube or I've had to switch positions because I thought it needed to look perfect and look like everyone else's porn and then I realized when I started sleeping with 18 year olds how damaging that is even in terms of the fact I only slept with body shapes that didn't have had perfect abs and big dicks because that was what's you know in the porn industry then when I realized how I guess lack of information is shared with these people I was like I'm going to keep all that in.

56:42It's not unsexy to not know how to pull hair or how to choke properly or the fact you can't get hard or the fact you finish really quickly. But it's made to seem unattractive because it's always cropped out and we don't talk about it. Would you ban that type of porn? The really fake style? No, but it should just come with a disclaimer. It's like a movie. If you wanted to learn how to drive a car, you don't watch Fast and Furious to learn. Yeah. And it's also not damaging to watch that. But who's going to make it have a disclaimer? Like, do you think the porn industry should be regulated or do you think it should be for sure i think a lot of it is there's a lot of content i would like to do and i can't do because they're saying it doesn't agree what like i'd love to be well i wanted to be tied up in a glass box and petting zoo yes and i loved the idea i was consenting to it everyone that would have turned up would have been under understood my restrictions my yeses my nose um and that's another big thing as well yes and no's are discussed before you start a professional porn shoot you go through every you have a sheet and it has every single thing you could imagine like fingering hair pulling slapping and you go through that that's never shown you only see the end result you see the perfect edited part whereas with my content it's very different it's very very consensual and yes he is choking but it spoke about during it um yeah i think porn should be have restrictions and it should be told hey this was done by professional consent was discussed off camera so then when these young guys are watching it and they go to have sex with another 18 year old girl that's probably not that confident going to speak up in the back of their head they sort of know the porn they watched did discuss consent and they discussed each other's limits a quick aside you've probably heard experts like dr ronda patrick talk about the benefits of omega-3s they support brain reduction they support brain reduction they support brain function but they reduce inflammation they improve heart health and are backed by hundreds of studies it's really tough to get enough through diet no one's eating that much salmon.

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1:00:01I still do some of the cliche porn, but a lot of my content isn't that. But I'm not also saying, oh, come and watch me for a sex education lesson. And I wouldn't be the right person at this moment in time to educate properly on sex because I could say something which contradicts that. But I do think more things, especially porn or whether that's at school or university, should be discussed about consent, sex, people's different limits, things they enjoy. Because everyone just gets embarrassed about the conversation. Your parents might say, look, don't have sex or you have to wear a condom. And that's sort of as far as it goes.

1:00:35We're very naive to think, one, they're not having sex before 18, that they're not watching stuff online. And they don't know what they're doing. So teach them.

1:00:47Nearly two thirds, about 64 percent of men under age 25 support making it harder to access pornography online, up for 51 percent in 2013. if young people are becoming more conservative about sex and pornography how come bonnie is still breaking records well i guess even though you earn so much money like you've still got your audience is not all men by any means right you've got a fairly small number of men who are supporting you um i i also sense there's this move against from the younger men there's this move and women as well against porn and i suspect that that comes from the fact that these are say zoomers who've grown up on the internet what's zoomers mean like born this century okay they were brought up on the internet they were exposed to porn really young ages i mean it's often like i think average age is 11 for boys something like that crazy and so and they're often been exposed to really extreme stuff and it's it's damaged them psychologically and sexually in that they i mean like what we were talking about earlier with sometimes weird tastes escalating but also often say struggling with erectile dysfunction when you're actually in the room with like if you've trained yourself on porn and on your own hand yeah when you're then in the room with a real woman you might not be able to get it up for sure or having uh unrealistic expectations just not being able to find normal women as attractive because you become used to watching women like you and i think that a lot of men have just learned from their own personal experience and just purely selfishly like regardless of the whether or not porn is fair trade they've learned that actually it's bad for them yeah and it's probably bad for everyone like i mean when it comes to porn addiction for instance i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy it's a terrible thing so i think even with porn like you mentioned then they think unrealistic body shapes because they're looking at these women that no we do it for for a job well it's not a job in most people's eyes but they also shouldn't do that though that because that's stupid because probably the porn they're watching their penis is probably half the size of that and nor do they have a chiseled six-pack so um yeah it is terrible when some guys can no longer get hard because they've watched so much porn or they have unrealistic expectations of women and they shouldn't because one they don't most probably don't perform like a porn star um but i'm not saying porn is the answer for everything it's there's a much bigger issue problem but i don't think banning porn is the solution of that i just think it should be better regulated and more conversations about just sex in general whether you can't get hard you struggle to stay hard you come really quickly or maybe you don't come at all it's should just be more of a conversation and less taboo so but people become less embarrassed by talking about it but should people watch more porn because there's quite a big chunk of the population that don't watch porn at all probably more varied porn you shouldn't always just watch one type of porn um that's not going to be the issue though if you're talking about people who are being educated and getting used to sex in general a power user or even a normal user of porn yeah i'm not convinced that they need a varied diet what we're talking about is like one big group of people who don't use porn at all and then this other group of people who some of whom continue to use it healthily and then some of whom sort of tumble down these darker rabbit holes you could say that with anything alcohol alcohol chocolate like it's you can't summarize what one person can do how i could easily have a couple of drinks and stop another person can't do that they're going to you know finish the whole bar or gambling might be a good comparison because obviously gambling is legal in this country yeah we know that there are it hasn't always been there's been periods where it's been banned and there are certain things which are banned like the really um sort of predatory end of the gambling industry and we know that things like the apps can be really addictive and people ruin their lives gambling like they'll lose the family home their marriages will break down everything and so i i certainly think there should be regulation i think most people do um if you're you know i guess in this comparison like you're like the gambling boss who owns who owns the app that's like normalizing this bringing this into everyone's homes like is there not some sense of responsibility like he's he's obviously just he's playing by the rules he's obeying the law but it's not virtuous if i had a subscriber saying to me like look i've spent so much money on you this month i'm gonna i can't afford to pay my mortgage i can't afford at the food shop 100 % I'm like look let's just chat stop spending so much money I clearly want you to be able to pay your bills and do your food shop so yeah when I'm speaking to to guys online and they'd you know just sometimes disclose very personal information with me I would never want to put them in a difficult or vulnerable situation but I can't be responsible have you got on that have you got an opinion on the financial domination industry are you familiar with this about where like fin dom yeah so like girls will like a guy will pay for a girl's life and then like completely rinse their bank account yeah i mean it goes even more extreme than that uh that the end of this is typically guys will get their paycheck and then immediately send all of it to a girl yeah who drip feeds money back to him as he begs for his own money back oh yeah now it's this very odd.

1:06:01Is this consent? Is this an addiction? You are transferring this to them. A lot of the time, the girls that are doing this will have compromising material. I know a friend that was at university with me who was doing this with a guy, and she had videos of him coming in a cheeseburger and then eating it. And he was married. He was begging her to have one pound so that he could put some fuel in the car. And she says, there's 50p, get the bus to work. and his bank account has nothing in his wife is completely unaware that this is happening again with that consenting adults this seems to be you know the the i'm trying to find where your limit yeah like morally for me i wouldn't be happy with that but that's just my word moral in this conversation right yeah yeah morally like that's not for me that that isn't something i'd enjoy i wouldn't like that i'm not doing this for power you know what's interesting that a lot of what you talked about in the very beginning, your justification was around finances.

1:06:57So we may have managed to find something close to the bullseye of where your sort of sensitivity sits, which is... Don't make people poor, Chris. Yeah, exactly. You may play with my private parts, but not my bank account type thing. These people just want people to be happy. But then it's weird I say that because that guy clearly enjoys that. And I have got some friends that will absolutely rinse guys for money. And their sort of argument, which is true, if it wasn't them, it'd be someone else. And at least then they know they're going to do it in a very controlled situation. But for me, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with that.

1:07:26And everyone is really different. You found a limit. Congratulations. For me, I just, it stressed me out. And it wouldn't sit comfortably with me. Loads of things will. I'll take virginities. I'll sleep with 18-year-olds. And those girls would probably say, God, that's disgusting. I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. But for me, I'd be stressed. I'd be going to sleep thinking, oh, my God, what if the wife needs to buy some emergency shoes? what do you think that bonnie has lost by doing what she does aside from dignity has she lost anything you've lost some future choices obviously you've you've you've gained a lot of choices in terms of your finances yeah but um there are now all sorts of things like you couldn't become a teacher would just be one example imagine how irritating that would be what a salary of 25k and 28th annual leave like i'm guessing you wouldn't necessarily want to but like there are certain things if you ever end up having children yeah have you I mean have you thought about that the impact that that will have on them in terms of everyone knowing what their I've not thought about it really deeply it is a question I've been asked before um I would like children in the future I think yes it's going to be difficult and horrible for them for sure at moments but they're also going to have the most beautiful life and I know money doesn't buy happiness but it will buy me so much time with them I know for most of my friends that still work their children go to childcare full-time they miss their first steps their first words they can't be there for all their school holidays they only go on one quality holiday a year and for some people that's fine but when I if I'm lucky enough to have children I'll be able to take them around the world they'll be able to you'd be a stay-at-home mum yeah I'd be more than happy to be a only found to trad wife pipeline for sure yeah um and I have no issue with that but for me the memories I'd be able to give my children and even in terms of health care and the life they'd live and the security they'd have, they'd be able to do whatever they want in their life as well.

1:09:19They'd have enough money to either invest or never work if they don't want to work, or maybe they want to do charity work. A lot of people, when you don't have money, you just go into a job. But if you actually had all the money, you'd take a lot longer, I think, in choosing what you want to do or what you want to achieve with your life. And I'll be able to offer my children that. But of course, it's going to come with backlash and comments. but whether you're too pretty you're ugly skinny fat your mom might drive a weird car kids get bullied on um so i think it'd be stupid there are levels to this game though for sure like oh my god your mom's bonnie blue and she's up with a thousand people but um it's yeah they will get picked on what do you reckon what do you reckon the percentage likelihood of you having a family in future future um i'd say quite high i'd say very likely um before i was very fixated on having children and having a family because I because of society thought okay you sort of finish school maybe you go to university you get a job you find a partner you get married you get a house you have a couple of children and that's what I just thought life was and as a whole that is if someone said to you right describe life that is what you would sort of say that's also what you're made to believe happiness is everyone looked at me because I had all of that before but just no children And thinking, God, you must be so happy.

1:10:38You live the most amazing life. And I thought, I'm with the wrong person. Like I'm happy, but I'm not in love with him. Or I live this life and it looks perfect, but it's not for me. And yeah, it took me a while to realize that. But I've realized it and that's the main thing. Do you think you'd have taken the same path in life if you'd had kids with your ex-husband? um I probably would have done some sort of sex work later on but probably not when the children were still young and I probably would have lived off my husband's wage for a few years would have gone to go back to work I thought you know what I don't want to I want flexibility because that's the other thing this you know sex work offers you don't have to be very public with it like when I did cam work I could have done that and no one would have known or you don't even have to show your face or you could wear a mask like sex work isn't always extreme there's a lot of people that I do sex work alongside a normal job and no one ever knows.

1:11:33And it's just a bit of extra cash so they can go on nicer holidays. So, yeah, I probably would have always done it because it gave me instant flexibility. And I know you could do multiple other things and get that, but it's also not very realistic. What's the biggest downside from you being famous? I've heard you talk about not really going out alone anymore, for instance. Yeah, like I have security, but that's, I think that got sort of not twisted, but people thought it's because people are horrible to me or it's you know I can't go out without someone shouting something negative it's the complete opposite it's because I can't walk anywhere without people swarming me for photos people coming up saying hi and that's men and women families the women are probably I say the worst they're the ones that are coming up non-stop I even have mums with children under the age of 18 saying can you grab a photo for my son or can we grab a family photo with you what do the women say that aren't the mums with the kids under 18 um a lot of screaming like oh my god i can't believe it's you oh i love your content i love your videos i've seen you online um it's honestly i've received near enough zero hate in person surprising louise i think it's not surprising in person because i think in general people um most people don't want to be negative to someone in the flesh like if you don't want to see me say hi then they're like oh i fucking hate that girl like i'm not saying that they're talking positively about me but even some of these families and some of these families I literally slate online saying yeah you stay at home you don't do anything you complain and then I sometimes I was at the airport recently and I saw a family and it looked like the exact family I mean this is me judging that I slate online I thought oh here we go and there's quite a out you know speaking very loud I thought they're gonna say something and instead there's like oh my god can my husband grab a photo with you oh we find you so funny and it just makes me realize like the hate you get online I'm probably the most, one of the most hated people in the UK, if not, you know, across all countries at times.

1:13:27But in person, I am very much loved. So the security isn't because I can't leave the house scared. It's just because I need to be able to get somewhere and I get completely swamped for photos. You've probably heard me talk about Element before. Come on. Frankly, that's because I'm dependent on it and it's how I've started every morning for the last three years. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. Each grab-and-go stick pack contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, or any other junk.

1:14:02It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings. The orange flavor in a cold glass of water is like a sweet, salty, orangey nectar. And I genuinely feel the difference versus when I've started it and when I've used it and when I haven't. Anyway, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration. So you can buy it and try it for as long as you want. And if you don't like it for any reason, they will give you your money back and you don't even need to return the box. that's how confident they are that you'll love it plus they offer free shipping in the u.s and right now you can get a free sample pack of elements most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below heading to drink lmnt.com slash modern wisdom that's drink lmnt.com slash modern wisdom chris and i were talking earlier about the fact that we're both very like we don't like negative feedback we don't we're quite we're quite sensitive right like we don't and for me i find this your ability to just withstand that level of to say something like i'm probably the most hated woman in britain and be quite chill about it i find almost as confusing as your ability to not be repulsed by a bunch of fatigly men i don't know where it's come from i don't always like that no i'd say i've not always cared what people thought but i've never been this much you know oblivious we're not oblivious but so much i don't care yeah like i don't know where it's come from and my sister she's really sensitive like one of the hate comments the other day was like oh that bedsheet i did like a day in the live vlog and i was at home they said oh her bedding was from sheen and it made her cry like she's very sensitive um like she really likes that bedding okay um but yeah i'm just not bothered i think it's because i know i'm happy i know everyone i sort of work with speak with are happy so i'm like why am i bothered about hate comments and one of the biggest comments i get is that oh i'm actually 47 and i think how am i gonna be bothered about you judging my age or recently went viral that i'm apparently transgender and all these hate comments are just completely made up and i find it more amusing than i do hurtful do you ever get i know i personally the criticisms i dislike the most criticisms that i think are probably true like sure when when they're ridiculous i think or whatever but when they're a bit close to the bone they hurt more do you ever are there ever criticisms you get which do sting a little bit because they're a bit true um I mean I get called flat chested and stuff a lot sometimes and yeah I have got small boobs but I'm not bothered by that I think do you have body anxieties because obviously you're just like endlessly naked um well like the top I was men aware today was strapless but I have eczema sometimes on my arms I was like oh actually I don't fancy wearing that today it's like I clearly do care but not the point where I used to Like when I first moved to Australia, I actually wore a lot of oversized t-shirts.

1:16:58I didn't always want to go to the beach. I felt quite insecure and I was sort of bothered. Yet when I started this job, and bear in mind, when I did that, no one cared what I looked like. No one was giving me hate. No one was saying anything. Yet when I started this job, even though I started receiving hundreds and hundreds of hate comments, I became more confident than ever because the positive for me outweighed every negative comment. You are aware that that's very non-typical for humans, right? That we remember the criticisms and forget the compliments. We have a negativity bias. And it seems like you've managed to do some sort of Gryffindor only drifts in that which makes it stronger thing.

1:17:34Yeah. And yeah, like Brazilian jiu-jitsu, what for most people would be a catastrophic amount of criticism. Yeah. Do you think you get more hate than love? online yes for sure in person completely different but it depends what platform you go on like my twitter is very positive but if you go on like tiktok especially like my backup accounts or my like my main accounts is very positive but you go on my additional accounts they're very negative so it really depends what you're sort of clicking on um but there's not many things i i want people to take away from me but it's just don't care don't live your life by judgment and it's like when you went to school I don't know if you ever fell out of your friends or you're like oh my god my friend at school today I'm gonna be sat by myself at lunch and your parents like look just don't care what people think or you're just at school it doesn't matter and then you come away from school and you realize how silly it was to a certain degree for caring about what people thought about you at school and if they thought you was popular or not in the popular group yet even though you realize looking back that was silly to care then you then suddenly care about what your colleagues think about you at work and then when you leave that job you realize how insignificant to a certain degree their opinion was but then you keep continuing to stress about your current surroundings but I don't care and that is genuinely I think one of the best things about me is is I'm not I am sensitive but I'm not sensitive to the point of I'm aware that I'm never going to look back on my life and go I wish I cared about I wish I cared less about what people thought about me I'm already in that mindset and for most people they can't do that they're worried about what the colleagues think or what the family think or what someone you went to school with is going to say about their new car or their job they're in I mean it's such a natural human instinct though to care about your your peer group and about I mean something that I've um I've often said is that there are there are various ways in which men and women are different from one another psychologically and personality wise and stuff and even though there are obviously individual outliers there are quite big average differences and so for instance women are less keen on casual sex than men are on average and that means that a culture of casual sex is on balance going to be worse for women and better for men i think because men focus so much on them a lot of time in the bedroom if it's one night stand yeah they're just thinking i think because men physically come as well yeah it's sort of so focused on yeah on them and a lot of women like especially myself when i first started i didn't feel confident enough to speak up to be like actually can you do it a bit softer can you you know yeah go a little bit to the left it's partly that it's also partly that actually most women do have most women do not fancy like really do not fancy the vast majority of men yeah like they do not want to have sex with the vast majority of men their threshold is really high in terms of who they're willing to to sleep with um and you're of course not like that as we've discussed but i've always said like i don't think that our current sexual culture is on balance very good for women in general yeah but that i i believe that there surely is like some unicorn woman out there who is perfectly suited to the sex industry and i think maybe you're it like i think you've got every trait necessary in order to withstand it and do well by it um i guess the problem is not everyone you have to spend a long time talking to you to realize that that's true and to realize quite how unusual you are.

1:20:58And so I feel bad when other sex workers try and either do the same or think, God, for me to be a successful sex worker, I need to do that. And that really isn't the case. Like Lily Phillips, right, who I think we all agree is suffering from this, actually. You're a real one in maybe seven billion kind of person. You're kind of like the LeBron James of sociosexuality and disgust sensitivity as well. So if I ever find a boyfriend, I'll have to tell him I'm one in seven million. Seven billion? Seven billion. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you do get quite a lot of backlash from people within the porn industry, right?

1:21:28Oh, yeah. Most of them hate me. Yeah. Why do they hate you? One, I've made their fake fucker fan content so irrelevant. They used to think, oh, faking I've had sex with one stranger was going to be the biggest thing of their career. And I've sort of just highlighted one, it was fake. And second of all, it's I'll do a thousand, shut up about your one. but they just say I'm some of them have said I promote rape culture um that it's dangerous it's making their subscribers ask for more extreme content and I get that and I do feel sorry for them but if things are changing or your subscribers are no longer interested in you that's not my fault that's that's a you problem you can't blame me for everything I mean it is difficult if you say sex is a resource to be traded like any other and then capitalist market dynamics get applied to that which you have stepped into it is very difficult to say i should not be subject to the same supply demand and competition curves that every other industry is if you accept that going in now i think the problem is that people get this sort of crossover and this is something that mary's written about which is the world is at a weird intersection at the moment that sex is simultaneously completely meaningless and can be done casually and doesn't have anything beyond the physical action attached to it.

1:22:51You can sleep with him and not catch feels. And also, if done incorrectly, can be the single most traumatic event of your life that never changes, that you're never able to recover from. And squaring the circle is difficult. And I think this is where it kind of meets when you actually see the raw economics of this, that you think, Well, if consenting workers within that industry are having to up their consensual work ethic, work rate, level of work extremity, it would be like having a salesperson who is particularly unbelievable at sales because of one specific tactic. But this tactic is very taxing on their body and very few people can go and do it.

1:23:31And now everybody else has got to try and do the same sales tactic. Yeah. it is difficult to come up with some sort of ethical grounding where you can defend that that isn't permissible within the rules that that system already had does that make sense is that is do you agree with that i mean i honestly sort of think that actually as someone who is critical of porn and sex and the sexual revolution and everything you're almost doing my job for me because you're highlighting you're taking everything to its logical conclusion and highlighting that there are fundamental problems with this worldview.

1:24:05You're like, it's very hard. There's a lot of people who say that they are in favor of sexual liberation and pornography and so on, but they're not in favor of Bonnie Blue. It is the reductio ad absurdum thing for everything. So I do think you can be and then see me as too far. Like, I also think that's fine. Like, I'm not saying you could agree with porn and then suddenly you see me and I'm saying you have to agree. Like, you can completely agree with porn and then look at me and think, that's too far. And that is okay. everyone's got their own opinions it's just when people try to give me facts I'm like you're not speaking factual you speak in opinion um but yeah there's many many issues with the sort of I guess industry and a lot of content creators say um you know they're just no longer relevant and that's and that's my fault but it's not I get social media banned all the time I get new restrictions I have new issues and probably more issues than any other sex worker because I'm so big and so outspoken i get bans that other content creators don't get just because they don't have the techniques i do um but i adjust and i change and that's what you should be doing with any job or any situation you're in if you're hitting restrictions work around it or you change your technique are you worried about bonnie as a mother i would definitely worry if you were still doing it yeah i mean certainly like bringing punters into the home i'm guessing you probably wouldn't do that no like even now I never film at home I always film at a venue um and I have filmed at home before but I no longer enjoy that I was like no I know what my home is you know I want to keep my home my home and I want to be able to separate from that and not that I've ever needed that separation but I'd always like the fact if I needed it I'm not somewhere where I think you know I've just been gangbying on this sofa it's a separate place and I can if I need a break I've got the opportunity to have that you could probably go quite a long way in sort of transforming your identity to protect the kids from the backlash at school um different i mean bonnie blue obviously isn't your real name anyway right um but um how are you going to talk to them how would you talk to them about how you're living how you've got this amazing house you know no idea but we're very early age i know that'd be very young age for them because whatever age you think you're either kids start swearing or they start saying different things at the playgrounds or start watching content it's probably a lot younger so it would really depend on the society at that moment in time like you said the current age is 11 that might go even even younger um I don't know how the conversation would go to be honest I don't know what would be you know depends how long if I'm no longer in the industry how much is still out there how much I'm still being spoken about how much I would have to disclose um I definitely would want to disclose everything I'd never want anyone telling my children or surprising them with what I do.

1:26:52I'd want them to hear it from me. And that's sort of how I deal with my family at the moment. Anything I plan to do or anything I do, they hear it from me. Even with, I did a documentary recently and it showed a lot of sex. It showed a lot of the gangbangs, a lot of the things I get up to. And I actually took my family to the screening. And some of the journalists was disgusted that I'd taken my family there. and it was hard to watch it with them for sure it was did you know it was going to be as explicit as it was um i'd watched a rough edit and i knew there's going to be sex in there i did not know it was going to be as explicit as it was um and i was thinking during it like i was sat next to my dad my grandma was there my mom my sister her boyfriend and there was times i couldn't look at the screen i had my head what was that sensation that came up for you it was me showing my pussy saying i've just been railed by x amount of people no that's what was on the screen what was the sensation that came up for you when you were sat in the seat um i just felt a bit sick and it wasn't because of what i'd done it was just uh this is the first time my family have really been exposed to this right now when they're sat front row in like this cinema room and they've got journalists behind them i'm sure i'm gonna just keep my sort of foot on this point for a second yeah beyond feeling sick i what was the emotion that came up like what did you what was the feeling what was the sense beyond physically how it manifested in your body i was just hoping like my dad was okay like i think again that's not an emotion yeah but i apart from literally feeling sick and thinking like oh my gosh i hope my dad's okay that was all that was going through my mind and what i was feeling what were you worried he might feel um i don't know like potentially be disgusted potentially think this is too much humiliated yeah you mentioned front row so they've got journalists looking at them so was that feeling of like exposure behind yeah it was it was hard and I would just like I always want to protect my dad like my dad is super sweet and I don't wrap them in bubble wrap at all they're fully aware of what I do and to the extreme and they're fully supportive um but yeah during the whole documentary I was sort of like oh I felt so nervous I just wanted to say to him like how do you feel are you okay like okay so you did feel nervous there i'm the reason the reason that i say it is i want my family to be proud of me and i was worried them seeing that might take that taking that feeling away um but there was other parts of documentary my mom dad my grandma they're all laughing they're they're finding it funny and they're happy and the other parts they just looked away but i'm really glad they watched it because their friends are gonna have watched it they're everyone in that town would have watched it and if anything was to say anything to them they're not going to be shocked or surprised because they've watched it and they know what to expect and that's how I guess I would treat my children is just always being very transparent with them and sort of not hiding things from them because I know they'll find out how do you feel about your daughter doing what you do for a living um if I had a daughter I would explain look I'm very different most people are going to be very hurt by this they're not going to be able to deal with this mentally and physically but if they wanted to do that I would not disown them I wouldn't be like no don't do it like I said the main reason I got into it originally was money um yes that has shifted but they would have so much money and so much opportunity to do anything they wanted um and not many people are like me so I can't imagine my daughter would want to do it just because you know not many people do you're the LeBron James appalled yeah um but if they did do that as long as they understood it's not because I think sometimes I make it look very easy I make it look like it's a breeze in the park and because for me that is and I think that's what can be damaging on society or it can be hard for people online because they see me again oh I earn loads of money and I'm really happy and I love my life most people try and copy it they're traumatized the families are upset um so yeah it's just making him aware it's i do say it's easy because i think of my dad working hard he worked two jobs he worked night shifts he had to work in terrible weather conditions i'm like that's hard work me lying on my back ain't that hard so it's not hard but it is hard i was just thinking of that scene in black adder do you remember black adder goes the second series the tudor one where it starts off with a man he's saying oh daughter we're so poor blah blah blah and she says yes father i'm going to go to london i'm going to make my fortune he says no i want you to go on the game just make a living lying on your back it's so much easier um what would you think about your son um having sex with a future bonnie blue aged 18 losing his virginity yeah no i'd be recommending it you'd be recommending it 100 18 year olds when they lose their virginity it's an unsafe environment they've probably been drinking they're under the influence they haven't discussed consent they haven't discussed the choking the hair pulling and all of that and that could be damaging for him the next day it could be the girl comes home says but you hurt me or it can just be damaging for them because they're made to feel insecure or they're laughed at for whatever reason them being sent to a sex worker is a very safe controlled environment um would you worry about your son because you've said you're an outlier would you worry about your son contributing to the trauma of that woman because most sex workers are not like you personality I'd probably want to know who they're going to because you could also go to a sex worker that's just an escort and they don't do the crazy things I do um or like I mean every single person is different and I'd want to I'd want to help them um because yeah I wouldn't want them to go into someone that absolutely hates it and is doing it purely for the money and they feel traumatized from it so I'd want to help the guy and make sure they go to a set a good sex worker what would you say if your children of either sex yeah um say they became uh religious and they decided that actually they wanted to wait until marriage to lose their virginity and do it the traditional way what would you say to that choice that's fine like i think it's sometimes it's lovely when people are really religious um i don't have an issue with it i don't i personally will never be religious um but yeah if they wanted to they would but never say never bonnie that might be the new challenge i'm burning in this building right now um but it's yeah if they became religious i mean i can't imagine my children would um but if they did that's fine i think those that do i think oh my oh God, that sex you've thought about for about, I don't know, 25 years is going to be terrible.

1:33:19It isn't going to be good. I remember you, I think you recorded an article saying, I have never confirmed I was pregnant because I would never ever lie about pregnancy. Bonnie added saying that doing so would be a step too far. Yeah. There doesn't seem to be many lines where you would draw and say, this is a step too far with your self-promotion, with the things that you would do, the things that you would say, you've already mentioned. I curate my TikTok 10 second hooks to be as annoying to women as possible. What is it about pregnancy that's sufficiently sacred that I would never ever lie about it doing so would be a step too far?

1:34:02I tried for many, well, about a year and a half with my partner to get pregnant and I was unsuccessful. And I found out if I wanted to conceive, it'd have to be through IVF, which was really hard especially at the time I would not have had the money to go through IVF I would have to save up for an you know a couple of years and when your friends around you're having children and everyone's falling pregnant so naturally it was very hurtful to to continue to try and even buying like all the ovulation tests to help my chances it was really expensive and I couldn't afford to keep to keep doing it um so yeah the press in a nutshell I think this was like shortly after the thousand was there was rumors saying I was pregnant it started off on tiktok then it was on Twitter and then Instagram.

1:34:42Lily Phillips was doing the same thing if I remember correctly. Well yeah the rumors had started about me on TikTok and all these were social media platforms and then journalists started reaching out saying we want to we want you to comment on your pregnancy and we just ignored it for a couple of days thinking well we're not commenting I'm not pregnant I don't know where this is coming from and it just continued to escalate. So then I decided okay let's play into this and then we'll use the extra income we get from the more press the more views to put towards somebody's IVF journey. So the only thing I did do was upload a photo on my Instagram story of a pickle covered in chocolate and sprinkles and put cravings.

1:35:17And then the following day, it was, oh, Bonnie confirmed she's pregnant. Oh, Bonnie's comments on the fact she's pregnant. And I hadn't, like there was already 10, 20, 30 articles saying I was pregnant, even though I hadn't commented on it, I hadn't said anything. And that's obviously hurtful. Like I was fine with it, but I knew I couldn't get pregnant. I knew I couldn't fall pregnant naturally so that obviously wasn't very nice and then I think like 48 hours after that I did a YouTube video and just said look hey I'm not pregnant I uploaded one video of a pickle the journalist seemed to think it's okay to make stories up about a woman a woman's body without understanding my situation it's sensitive for you yeah for sure and I can't get pregnant and I'm going to use this money and I have paid for two people's IVF journals um since then do you think I remember thinking when you did the thousand that the most reliable contraception on the market, which is the Marina IUD, has a one in a thousand failure rate.

1:36:13But I guess if you know that actually you can't conceive naturally, it doesn't cross your mind. I mean, obviously the men wear condoms. Obviously it's not impossible. Condoms fail. Yeah, for sure. It's not impossible. But yeah, the chances would be beyond slim for me to fall. If they're less than one in a thousand, then. yeah it'd be beyond slim for me to to sort of fall pregnant so yeah that's where the whole the whole pregnancy thing came from um and that's what i said would be sort of be too far and even that i got backlash when i i then went and did a bit of a press you know i think went to daily mail and a few other articles um for the places and just did some general press i think i was heading to spring break shortly after that and i then they asked me about the pregnancy and i was like why do you think it was okay to upload a photo of a pickle even though the daily mail I'd already uploaded an article prior to that saying I was pregnant.

1:37:03And I was like, so it's okay for you to say it and apparently confirm I'm pregnant. But then when I upload a photo of a pickle, I'm the one in the wrong. I then mentioned about the IVF journey. And the woman was like, we should have just done that without ever uploading the photo of the pickle. And I've said many times, you don't have to be charitable. If I want to burn the money on clothes and whatever I want, I will. But if I also want to help someone out, I'll do that as well. and that's when I I think I became very aware of no matter what good I do it will always be twisted even that was put in a very negative light I'm interested in that particular area of sensitivity yeah and you've had a varying levels of strength of accusation that you're a psychopath or um on other corners of x that you're possessed by demons yeah um would you say the reason i asked and kept on pushing about and what did you feel was to try and get that embodied sense from you as somebody who doesn't seem to have much discussed sensitivity very yeah the tail end lebron james of sociosexuality on the far side what how would people have described you as a kid would you were you an emotional goal not emotional in terms of crying loads and like really upset but i've always been really happy like and i've recently which has been wrong for me to say like oh i'm not emotional but it's because every time i say i'm not emotional i'm referring to me crying and being upset and it's because i live a very easy happy life so it's very easy for me to sit here and say i'm not emotional but you're referring to negative emotions well emotion being happy and smiling and laughing that's also so i am emotional like my i've had the best sort of two weeks of my life and I continue to have the best days I've ever experienced and I'm very happy and very smiley but a lot of the time that's not shown in like podcasts and interviews because I'm usually being interrogated I'm being told I'm disgusting I'm having to defend myself so of course I'm not gonna be sat there smiling and laughing but if you was to watch me you know when I'm at spring break and I'm meeting people I'm nothing but smiling and happy so people like to pick and choose which parts they analyze me or some of them will say I blinked after I said a certain word so that means x y and z or i looked a certain way and it's like you know i probably said something in my eye or i got twitchy or i got bored like people think too much into things um but i am an emotional person but not in terms of crying the reason i ask is i wonder how formative those 18 months of trying to get pregnant were and it does seem like a bit of an inflection point in your life and maybe this is just part of a marriage that wasn't right and a bunch of things coalesced at the same time maybe you did get some sort of realization maybe this was one realization that caused a bunch of different torpedoes to be fired at different areas of your life i'm going to do in terms of a career what i'm going to do in terms of the future i'm going to see myself as my level of sexual openness by my current partner um all of that together plus i would never ever lie about pregnancy to me showed potentially uh laid an explanation that hmm how much of this is the blast radius of fuck I really wanted kids and it turned out that I couldn't get them yeah and I'm now coping yeah I completely see that but I if I wanted to be with my ex I could have been if I then wanted to get pay for IVF I'm in a situation where I could pay for it for myself now so if it was I was still doing this because I'm trying to pay for IVF or I'm wanting my ex back I'd completely agree but I couldn't get the divorce through quicker and I'm not in a situation with them I don't want children I was so fixated back then so I was actually missing happiness in my life I think I'm to a certain degree grateful I didn't fall pregnant because my life would have been very different and as much as children bring a lot of happiness for me I think I was more doing it because all my friends was I just got married everyone's asking me a lot including my family like when are you when you're gonna have children or when you start a family for you for yourself and I think I just started to think okay I don't feel overly happy what's missing I was children really it was having freedom flexibility traveling and doing all the things I wanted to do but I kept thinking I was too old to do or oh I've passed that now or I can't just go traveling around the world and go on crazy holidays i've not got the money or i've not got the the time for it i presume that um this period of trying to get pregnant was before you started camming yes do you think then that going into because you talked about how actually before then you had a low body count and actually you were pretty like sexually conservative um do you think that learning about your infertility changed your whole astral sex made it more like a hobby because obviously that is the way humans come into the world is through sex it has it's in we were all conceived in that way for sure apart from ivf you know but that's a recent thing um so there is an obviously meaningful consequential thing built into it but if it can't lead to conception do you think do you think that's fed into your feeling that it's just a hobby it doesn't matter commoditize it whatever uh no completely get where you're coming from but i was never having sex only on my ovulation days I was only having sex on the days I thought I was going to conceive so sex even when I you know wasn't trying to get pregnant was a hobby with my partner I did it just for the pleasure um so no if I was only having sex prior to that around ovulation then yeah I'd completely agree but I don't think as much as it was hurtful and it's a very difficult time when I tried to get pregnant I don't think it's had any knock-on effect I mean to a certain degree it has because it's made me I guess more sensitive towards the subject which is why I'm so strong about I wouldn't lie on it um and it's made me want to help people because i think it's horrible that so many people try and some people they've got six kids they couldn't give a shit they're not eating properly they're you know they're tramps and they can still pop out kids and there's some people that would offer the most beautiful family and beautiful homes and they can't unfortunately have children so i guess it made me more sensitive on the subject but it's not left me then thinking oh i'll do sex as a hobby or change my opinion on sex i don't think too deeply on some things i take things as they are oh this made me feel like this okay great well i'm going to deal with it and then i move on i don't drag emotions um ultimate bayesian update think of the like just permanently upgrading your worldview what somebody that's dissecting the micro expressions of a porn star non-typical why do you think people are fascinated by the bonnie blue question i think it's because of your outlier status you're so unusual i mean i guess in both senses that you are almost an outcast as well like you've chosen this you've chosen to be the most hated woman in britain your words yeah and yeah i mean you say you've said a few times in this conversation that you're not intelligent I've heard you said it elsewhere I think you're actually really intelligent I am but on things that like you won't want me on a pub quiz you won't I don't I'm not good at geography and all of that like and there's loads of things about the world that I probably should know but I have no interest in but you're very quick yeah like I'm if you was to question me on sex and 18 year olds the reason I never expert yeah I am like it's because that's what I enjoy that's what I do each day but even with that these loads I don't know and I don't pretend to know but I get asked sometimes really intelligent questions I think don't understand half the words you've just used used I don't know what's going off but like I'm never claiming I know everything like I simply don't yeah one of the things I've I've noticed in how you talk about people is that you'll you'll be you'll be so um non-judgmental about say men being fat or all this kind of the physical stuff etc um one group though that you you are consistently judgmental towards are lazy people yeah people who don't work benefit scroungers you know that kind of and they're the ones that complain about life the most and i think you lazy shit get off and do something about it like like unless your arms and legs are chopped off you can probably get up and do something about it and that goes for people other people as well like if you're complaining about something they're the ones that blame everyone else now they're unhappy they're miserable and they take zero responsibility for it like i take responsibility for my actions and i have taken my life in my control and even if i'm talking about to family or friends and they're complaining about something i'm like do something about it don't keep coming to me with the same issues because you're going to have a very blunt answer you're a very high agency person high agency what does that mean in that you you set your mind to something you just make it happen for sure and a lot of people aren't like that and i wonder i I mean, because so many people are interested in you because they see you as strange and that you confuse them.

1:46:11Do you feel the other way? Like, do you ever struggle to empathize with why, say, some women really wouldn't want to have sex in the way that you do? Or some people are really upset by negative criticism? Or do you find more normal people confusing? No, because I'm actually so normal. Sorry, sorry, Bonnie. I really need to stop you there. That's not true. like asides from you know everything we've talked about yeah my day-to-day life you would be amazed like if you knew me say if you didn't have a phone you didn't go on the internet and you didn't know I did what I did and you just knew me as a person you would never add up me as a person does this because I am surprisingly normal I always say I'm just a girl I'm actually very simple with what I enjoy I'm not high maintenance I'm what do you spend your money on because you've got so much Do you have really expensive toasts?

1:47:03I spend a lot on fashion. I really enjoy the fashion side of things, memories. I would sell every single item of clothing I have to make memories. I recently went to the Maldives and went snorkeling. It was the most beautiful experience. I'd always choose memories over anything materialistic. But it's hard to burn through so much money, to be honest. So I save a lot. I remember, look, Chelsea Ferguson. Do you remember her? I recognize the name. Admireme.vip. She was the girl that founded that, which was an early British competitor to OnlyFans. Oh, okay, yeah. Chels Furgo. I'm dating myself a little bit here, but she was sort of the Geordie Shore world of this.

1:47:43She was huge on Snapchat, and she was like a proto Bonnie Blue in one way. I'll never forget that she did a stunt that was her outside of her brand new four-bed new-build house in Darlington, somewhere in the northeast of the UK. And there was a brand new range and a brand new land, a brand new Lambo. And the front of the number plates on both sides were Chells, Virgo, you know, some custom number plate. And it said, uh, all this from showing pictures of my fanny helped me put petrol in my Lambo at my me.vip slash Chells, Virgo. So the rage bait drive clicks through flash on lifestyle and that's in some ways more materialistic i don't know if i've ever seen you flex wealth like i mean i've got a frari and i posted that because it was quite fun like the number plate spells porn the seats say bonnie blue uh the whole thing is blue you went very subtle with it yeah like it's i mean it's like a work thing like if that gets spotted around people take photos you upload it online okay yeah business expense the first thing i asked was like does it fit through mcdonald's drive-thru since they've said no i've never driven it um i've got no interest in it i posted that but aside from that i don't like share a lot of the things i sort of spend my money on like i want to post a bit more about fashion and and clothes because i know if i was watching that as a girl i've been treed on oh how much like i'll go and drop on a shopping trip like 50k and i don't think anything of it it's just a normal shopping trip whereas that would have been a house deposit plus more when i was younger what do you reckon you'll net this year a lot of money a very comfortable living can you get anywhere close in a range um no but i live a nice life is what i would say um i've heard you say that um i think this is in the channel four doc so it would have been filmed a little while ago that you're you were currently you were at the time earning a million a month and your goal was to earn five million a month yeah and i thought listen to that once you're at a million a month like what else what are you going to spend the rest of that money on it becomes just a numbers game at that point for sure like i've always said i want to hit five million i think i will hit five a month at some point but if it came at a cost of my happiness i'd stop because my life ever since i started earning a certain bracket didn't really change um maybe when i went from you know 50k a month to 400 there was a big difference and then 400 to the million probably a bit but even that there wasn't much for change um I don't have like yes I have expensive taste and I do burn through money quite quickly but the main thing I want is just happiness and memories and yes you do need money for some memories like some of the trips I went on was you know we hired the boat for the day and I didn't think anything of it or just uh yeah of course I'll hire the boat no I don't want other people on the boat I want it to myself and things like that is what I'm beyond grateful for I'm like if I was ever having a tough day I'd look back at things like that and think how lucky am I and lucky is not always the best word because no one's given me this um but I do just feel every day so lucky and so grateful to have the people around me I do in the life I live um I don't know I just to most people I live the most disgusting life but to me I couldn't wish for a more beautiful life Beautiful life, Louise?

1:51:06To each their own I suppose I believe you when you say that It's just the wider effect For sure I think it helps that I'm selfish because I don't care If someone's saying you're having a really bad knock off effect you've ruined my marriage I'll be putting on my flippers and snorkel thinking that's your problem You never get that like tummy broiling hands shaking like feeling you never feel um nervous in conflict or those kind of physical sensations if someone were to say something like that to you you've ruined my life bonnie no i'd say like i don't understand why maybe um but you'd be steady like a yeah top surgeon it'd be more like i'm gonna understand why but it's not me i didn't do it the fact i don't know your name shows i didn't ruin your life i didn't there's something there's a lack I think most things is communication.

1:51:59Like if I've ruined your marriage, there's a lack of communication there. And I'm not saying that's every case, but for most things, whether that's friendships, your job's not worked, your relationship's not worked. It's simple. It's communication. You were about to say, can I ask? Can I ask a basic question? Why did you choose the name Bonnie Blue? Bonnie's quite an old lady name. I know. Yeah, I think it's quite nice. It's quite traditional. I wish I could tell you a really interesting story, but I just Googled porn names and it was like a porn translator. Not translator. What's the word? Generator.

1:52:28Yeah. And the word Bonnie Blue came up. So I chose Bonnie and then you chose one from the other side and it was blue. But I never knew it was going to be like this. I thought I was going to be a cam girl. No one's going to know about it. But I love the name Bonnie Blue now. Like it's, you know, I guess quite catchy. It's very easy to remember. I love the color blue. Though Bonnie's quite a traditional name. um but yeah it was honestly thought or within about two minutes if that what do you think about people that call you a victim a victim of what like these videos i see women all the time on tiktok saying oh she was sexually assaulted as a child oh she's been through all this and i think you're you think i'm sick you're sick you just found a photo of me on google from when i'm about 10, 11 years old and then made up a sex story.

1:53:20You've made up that I've been sexually assaulted. Like how disturbed are you to do that in your spare time? And the only TikTok I've seen that's really hurt me was a video got uploaded of this woman talking and in the background was a photo of me and my granddad that passed away saying, oh, he's sexually assaulted me as a child. And I think, why? Why would you ever look at a photo? You've gone out your way to find that and then make up a story and apparently I'm the disturbed one um so yeah it's some negative comments do get you only that um because that went quite viral it's when I like only just sort of just started and that made me really think wow I've really dragged my family through this because I chose to do this but my family didn't Bonnie Blue's victimhood status Louise no I don't think you're a victim yeah i think that most women in the sex industry are at least to some extent like it's it's a complicated combination yeah um i do think that you're really unusual and but there is a problem though right with that most people don't know that they can't tell that the fact that you it can be very difficult to tell at first glance the difference between say you and lily phillips yeah and you yeah you think as i do one smiles one cries i suppose so but sometimes they leave sometimes they leave smiles some people can be really good at faking it and some people as well it can be when they're actually in when they're in it they they get through by convincing themselves that it's okay and they will sort of tell themselves a story almost like if you're in an abusive relationship and when you're in it you'll be like oh he loves me it's fine and then it's only later when you've left it that you're able to realize quite how horrible it was and that's quite a common story in the sex industry yeah um i mean do you think that there are women who aspire to be like you in terms of the wealth in particular women in the sex industry and who are putting themselves through trauma to try and compete with you not realizing that they just don't have what it takes in terms of the psychology i mean i've seen it online before there's obviously people crying there's been people that have you know been hospitalized yeah um all of which then given credit because you know people see them being vulnerable and they're like oh my god that person's crying or that person gone to hospital and then i get the hate because i'm not crying or not being hospitalized and it is it's not easy like I say it's easy because it's easy for me because it comes very natural and I know my body limits but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to loads of people it's you've got to do what's best for you and you've got to focus on happiness because you could have all the money in the world you could have the biggest following it's all honestly pointless if you aren't happy um so I don't think you should ever copy anyone else and I think that's how I've been able to stay happy as well because no one's ever done what I've done but they've done it afterwards or tried to but i'm not following anyone like the things i'm even doing this month no one's ever done before so no i'm not looking at you done this month this month i've just had a bonnie blue bang bus made and i'm starting off at scotland which is at the top of the country and working my way down and i'm going to visit loads of universities to fuck the students right so on the road not aware of anyone having done that before Yeah, it honestly looks really cool.

1:56:34It's like a... It's a blue. Of course, blue. It says Bonnie Blue on it. Bonnie Blue's Bang Bus in really big writing. Are there any legal ramifications about that? No. I mean, my family... Imagine you must have a shit-hot attorney law team for this. Not really, no. As long as I can park up. I mean, people have sex in the car, don't they? Not convinced that's legal. Well, maybe in the hotel or their dorm rooms, they can invite me in. i would get someone to check that first i do think a strong legal counsel might be a good idea just but my point being that i fucking hell i have people check things over like before we do it as i understand i like to reach limits so i've got to fully understand where that limit is because everyone wants to arrest me everyone not the police but everyone online is like i phoned the police on her today i've reported and i'm like report me for what like oh my god she slept with they're barely legal the second one and that is legal so you're an idiot um but yeah i do make sure everything i do is is legal because i'd be the first person like i see some of the tiktoks or some of the social media other of girls or fancy girls don't promote their socials i think god if i'd have done that i'd been arrested instantly or i would have my socials taken um i think you get a harder time you have more haters because you don't come across as a victim and because you never cry that's why i get more hate yeah you don't honor any sympathy sympathy is such a huge driving force uh so much so that you saying i am not a victim victim of what uh has not managed to dispel people calling you a victim yeah uh i think it's a shame because so many people are victims and it's taken away from them like focus on them help them like leave me you know i'm too a victim of anything i'm in control and that scares people i think a lot of people are desperate to think that you're a victim a lot of women yeah because they are so disturbed at the thought that you actually like it yeah and that is okay but don't make up i'm a victim or don't make up sexual stories from when i was a child like it's fucked up is there anything that you still don't understand about bonnie i think that you're a marvel of science we might have to yeah i mean i'm sure because I'm sure there's something we were talking earlier about this this scan right where you can check you know your cortisol levels and all this sort of stuff to um to understand the chemistry of your psychology I mean I would guess I'd love you to do a big five personality test if you've never done one why is that it's like a it's like the gold standard of psychometric testing for personality so it's things like your consciousness I would guess you're really industrious I was gonna say do a do a some of these words I don't know what you say it's okay well Louise will be able to bring it down bring it down to earth uh do a big five analysis just based on my guess yeah okay so there are so there are five facets obviously can i add in the fact i love animals does that affect it yeah maybe um i don't think there's a dimension for loving animals but i don't mean bestiality before that gets twisted i mean like i love animals so the five facets are um openness to experience i think you're off the charts 100th percentile yeah um conscientiousness so meaning like your how hard you work like showing up on time being really diligent again off the charts extroversion what does that mean you tell me like how do you get exhausted from talking to people all day or could you just talk all day no i i could i get sometimes bored of answering the same questions but i did an interview yesterday and it was the same shit oh your family don't love you your family this family i'm like look i'm generally bored of it like i can understand why you think it but like so i sometimes get bored of answering the same things like i've loved that these questions they've been very different usually i sound like a robot and it's probably why i've become so switched off because as soon as you start the question usually i already know the answer drop into the scripted thing i've said five times before yeah um so i think probably you are extroverted at least quite extroverted yeah agreeable no i think you're deeply deeply disagreeable and that's part of the reason why which which so agreeableness is like your how much you worry about other people's feelings how selfless you are how how much you're willing to sort of put other people for yourself i think again we're off the charts in the other direction and neurotic you're probably the least neurotic person i've ever spoken to what does that mean like your sensitivity to negative feelings you worry about things how depressed you get i mean you're as you say you're just happy all the time just kind of happy and i know everyone thinks i honestly i see many many videos like she must be so depressed she must be so unhappy and i'm like i'm i'm not and i know people think i fake it and you know i could be lying to you but i'm a very good liar if so yeah and i'm not like i wish i guess more people could see my life outside of it but it's not always shown i don't always have time to show but i do want to i guess make an effort more so to show what happens when i'm not filming or when what happens when i'm not bonnie blue or when i'm out in public that i'm not this massively hated person.

2:01:35Given the little logic puzzles that we've stepped through today, on what basis can someone condemn what Bonnie does, given the world that we're in? Well, given the world that we're in, yeah, I don't think that you can condemn Bonnie Blue if you're generally in favor of sexual liberation and the free market and just letting all this stuff rip. I don't think you can. I think you just have to accept that Bonnie has followed all this stuff through to the logical end point and is winning that game. yeah um if you i mean it doesn't bother doesn't worry me because i've already thought for for years and i've always said that actually sexual liberation has some really serious costs um as does letting the free market rip and so on so um yeah i've really enjoyed talking to you and you're a really likable person same i like how you're you know you don't agree with what i do but you're very open to listening because i've had i always say you don't have to agree it's not my job to convince you and I'm not bothered but I always really appreciate when someone can just listen to my side because I'm not just some blonde porn star that's got no brain cells like I'm not overly intelligent but I can explain and the justifies but I'm not the correct word because I don't need to justify but I can explain why I do what I do and why I believe it's acceptable and why it's it's not damaging um so it's always good to have people that can listen I'm not saying you're now gonna be queuing up and I won't lend you a blue scheme last just yet but it's nice to have an open conversation.

2:03:02I want to try and finish up by getting you guys to steel man the cases for the other side. Do you know what that is, steel manning? So you know straw man? It's a, I take your argument and I make the weakest version out of it. Steel manning is taking the other side and making the strongest version for that case. So if you could think of the biggest trade-off or downside of your worldview being successful, if your perspective and lifestyle was sort of more widely adopted what would be the most negative externalities what's the best case that is anti bonnie blue and i guess louise you might be able to start and do what is the best case that's pro bonnie blue and also what are the negative externalities of if you were successful with what you wanted to have happen yeah so if i had my way um i would like criminalize most of what you do and you wouldn't have all this money right so obviously gang banks in prison well but not for money um so that's obviously like a personal cost for you i guess also that um maybe it is true that for some men access to porn reduces their sexual aggression towards other women or reduces the chances of them going to um bisexual women in prostitution so maybe i mean i've never really seen that case made strongly but i think i said earlier in the conversation that if that were true that it did actually reduce sexual violence I would accept it as being the worst of the options yeah sorry the better of bad options I think sometimes it's hard though because people think it's either got to be a or b it's not always got to be the case sometimes for one person some it works and the other person it doesn't or we try and say okay porn is better to cancel it but sometimes it's not like everyone tries to be fit in a box and sometimes things are one or the other or sometimes it might depend on what day it is and like you don't have to pinpoint yourself to one or the other what is the best case argument against bonnie blue and the world that she wants that you can think of um i mean for me i'm already in it i get to do what i want and no one can stop me basically but for the one of the main things i want is people that do pay for porn, do pay for sex workers, or they are queuing, for people to be more open-minded about him, that they're not disgusting, they're not desperate, they're not here to hurt anybody, they are genuinely lovely people.

2:05:24So that would be the biggest thing I would love to happen. No. What would be the case against? Against. Yeah. So Louise's position of anti-porn would criminalize, would monetize. If you were to make the argument for that, is there something where you think, okay, this is the best way that I could justify what Louise is saying? Can you see the other side? yeah like i mean i think a lot more restrictions should be added like it's this was done by a professional either speak to the person there should be like a clause beforehand um i think it's hard because i think a lot of porn is very heavily regulated um and the amount of consent forms and ids you've got to upload but as a whole just great education um i think you do see that complete wild west porn is is bad even if the individuals are consenting do you think that there's a cultural harm done if we had completely let rip you know watch it at any age watch anything you want do you think that there would be a significant downside from that yeah i don't think it should be any age but at the same time people are watching porn a lot younger than 18 and it's they're also having sex so you know you could stop watching porn i mean you could they make so many restrictions you can only watch watch porn once you're 18 they're probably having sex those younger than that though so who's educating them on them younger years i'm not say porn's the best place to educate them but something needs to fill that gap i have got an example that brings this into sort of my area of expertise which is bro science and i'm going to talk about fake natties you know what that is it's not to do with boobs it is uh guys who are in the fitness industry and have achieved a very admirable physique and claim that they haven't done it without performance enhancing drugs but they have used performance enhancing drugs fake naturals fake natties.

2:07:10What the argument against fake natties and specifically the sort of ethical argument is these men are creating an unrealistic expectation of what can be achieved naturally, which inevitably means that any guy who tries to do what they do feels inferior, they're going to fall short. The costs of trying to do what this person has done with PEDs is unattainable. Therefore, saying that you didn't use them is giving them a false sense of hope. also if you then come out and say that you did use drugs there's often an accusation that this person is now encouraging the use of testosterone because they have an admirable physique in this person the downstream effect of using hormones on yourself as a guy i wonder whether you are kind of not the fake natty because you're completely open about it but you are the testosterone hyper responder of the sex world which is your results may vary and bonnie's are the most outlier that you're going to have, most guys, most women would not be able to sort of run the cycle that you have, as in run the testosterone performance enhancing drug cycle and survive in the same way that you have.

2:08:17Most girls would not be able to live the life that you do. And I think when we're talking about like, without exaggeration, a one in 3.5 billion outlier, lots of people would ask the question does it make women want to emulate her or warn them off of her behavior not do it but the issue is you are so non-representative there is no warning those people off because there's no negative externalities that happen within this system that is you does that make sense yeah i tried to bring fake natties into this but no i i get it like the good thing is i'm very transparent i'm very open and i don't think you're transparent about how weird you are yes i would agree earlier yeah because you did say earlier i'm really normal i swear i'm really honestly anyone like so a lot of people that either work with me or my friends when people that know they either work with me or they know me one of the first questions they get asked is oh my god what she like and like she is surprisingly but you're surprisingly normal this is exactly the same as me talking about john jones or actually not john jones that's a bad example tom aspinall who's UFC champion.

2:09:26I go, he's a normal guy. He sits down, he eats dinner, he plays with his kids, he does the thing. It's like, yeah, but he also beats people up that are over 200 pounds for a living. This guy has a very specific skillset within a very narrow domain. And yeah, he's normal outside of that, but is also within that a world champion. So I think I would encourage you to check your thinking, for want of a better term, on I am not that weird because nobody else, you've already said yourself, nobody else has been able to do what you can do to people that are trying to go in your path. This is the same as you having unbelievable natural strength and being able to squat.

2:10:05There's a guy who recently broke the deadlift record. No one else on the planet has ever been able to do that. And somebody else trying to do that will snap themselves in half trying to chase it he is a one in 3.5 billion uh human yeah and i do think that creates a an odd sense of the cost that other people would pay if they were to try and do the same thing for sure because you do not deal with the situation in the same way like largely you're inhuman in the way that you are dealing with what is going on here is that i think i guess it'd be easier if I did struggle a bit and I could open up and say look it comes at this cost it comes at me crying myself to sleep at night it comes at my family are you know upset with me and I'm dealing with physical issues but that isn't the case like for me it really has been an easy ride and but I do always like to try and make it as clear as possible this is not normal for most people I am a normal girl but in terms of the way I deal with it and the way I'm able to manage it yeah to a certain degree isn't normal and i don't have any tips as much as i wish i could say look if you do want to do this here's some tips on how to manage it or how to be successful in it because i don't know i just you were just constructed i just handled it i just made for it yeah a little bron james of porn yeah yeah louise and bonnie thank you very much it's been really uh it's been really interesting to see i do i wish i don't i don't wish that i could have come away from it and said, and you know, I saw the second set of eyelids open and close or, you know, there was something in there that showed she was being contrived or seemed to be playing some sort of a game.

2:11:45And that is where the fascination, I think, and the questions will continue because it is easier for people to assume that there is something being hidden than, holy fuck, I just do not have a model for how this person's mind works in this way. And if it was probably any other industry that wasn't so heavily moralized. I think people would be fascinated, but for different reasons. They would be fascinated in the same way that a chess grandmaster or an elite strength athlete or a psychopath killer or anyone that's like, I have no understanding of how this person's mind works. But because it is wrapped up in some bravado, a lot of exposure, and a very heavily moralized private thing that's now been commercialized and made public.

2:12:31Like, yeah, you are the reductio ad absurdum of the sexual revolution, I guess. You're the spirit of the age. See, my brain, honestly, is not much going off at the best of times, but it's a very simple brain. But yeah, and I sort of get what you mean. You can't walk away going, you know what? I completely saw Bonnie's side or actually I saw a different side of her. Like, yeah, you would have seen a different side of me slightly, but it's, as a whole, I'm just a nice person. I'm always open for a conversation and I'm not going to come in and go, you know what? I want to fuck all your camera crew and I'm going to turn this into a gangbang.

2:13:02Please don't, please don't, please don't. And what's the big table for? But I will make jokes and remarks, but I don't just walk around having sex with people. I don't just, you know, instantly bend over or assume I'm having sex each day. It's... Con las grandes ofertas de Prime Big Deal Days este 7 y 8 de octubre, la grandeza está en tus manos. Así que si te encanta hornear, puedes conseguir una oferta en una nueva batidora de pie. Te transformará en el príncipe del pan.

2:13:46As a whole, it's to a certain degree, two people. Well, thank you for coming on. I appreciate you both. Thank you for having me. Thank you.