#998 - Zack Telander - Everything You Want Is On The Other Side Of Cringe

35:13I'd be like, what the fuck? He's allowed to talk about potentially what modern women want. So the problem with that argument, he's potentially allowed to talk about what modern women want. Right. Feels very flimsy on an internet. Of course it is super. On an internet that is hyper obsessed with pointing out hypocrisy, cringe, people getting out over their skis. And this was why the accuracy budget thing I think is really good. And unfortunately, it'll never exist. But imagine that everybody in the world, you could even have, but especially people that talk online, everybody had kind of like a bank account of some kind.

35:46And when they contribute in areas that they know well and fairly represent the truth or the best of the evidence, the best of our understanding, and they sort of move the conversation forward in that way, or they'd sort of replay existing parts of the conversation in a way that represents to them fairly. That's good. That kind of adds to the budget. What this allows them to do is to withdraw from that budget when they want to play with ideas that they're a little bit less certain about. And what I like about this is that it doesn't dissuade people who are maybe coming in from slightly different fields, different domains from going, huh, I just learned this thing.

36:23I just learned this thing in economics. And I actually think that that really applies to what we're seeing in the modern dating market or i just learned this thing in ai yeah and i actually think that that really explains what's going on with uh china right now right so okay yes this this is a crucial point that so many things have similarities and so many things are analogous and this is like i hate to bring it back to the hustle culture bros they love analogies they love them it's you and i love analogies and it's like but if you end up using this analogy for something people are going to go apples to oranges like they're going to start freaking out on it um but you know it it is it's people want to just which foam finger am i grabbing today which side are you on like what are you an expert in and that's it that's that's the end of this whole thing and it's just it is it is flimsy to say well you should be allowed to to talk about certain things but then when you say the wrong thing well you shouldn't have talked about it is it is strange that this sort of freedom of speech crowd are one of the first to jump down people's throats if they get something slightly wrong it's well actually but that's also that is the internet it's more important to be correct or it's it's more important to correct someone than it is to be corrected or to be correct sorry that's a good that's a good way to put everyone wants to correct to you.

37:47They don't care if you're right or wrong. This is the reason that ironic speech is protection, right? That if you're the person pointing out other people's flaws, you don't have that eye of power to run back onto you. Yeah, because the second level doesn't work. Exactly. You're like, hey, hey, hey, look, I'm here as an arbiter. Don't worry. I am here as an arbiter of truth, and I will help you to find out who the grifters and the shills are. I actually asked, I'll ask you, what is a good, what is your best definition of the word grifter? Well, I would say. Or shill. Yeah, for me, it's charlatan.

38:25It's usually a fraud, but somebody who claims to have absolute answers for things. It's usually somebody who is giving you very clear and concise one-size-fits-all answer. That's usually it. I think that's a good one for Charlatan, at least the best one that I've heard for Grifter and for Shill. Grifter, somebody espousing believes that they do not truly believe themselves. So like, I say this thing, but I don't believe it privately. Right. That's a Grifter. Yep. And a shill is somebody who is trying to sell a product or service that they wouldn't use themselves. Okay. Would you say that a shill has been bought by said product or something?

39:09There has to be some sort of monetary exchange. Yeah, maybe they're doing it for stickers. Yeah, I think those are great. You could shill for the Democratic Party because it makes you look good. You're not gaining monetarily, but you might be gaining in terms of status. Okay. And Grifter, I guess, Grifter and shill are kind of interchangeable. shill feels a bit more like about capitalism and selling shit and grifter feels a bit more about ideology and ideas but i've probably got this wrong anyway what i really like i tweeted this ages ago i was like hey i people use this word a lot tell me people who use this word what is your best functioning definition of this and i went through hundreds of replies and they were all a fucking mess and there was one dude that got uh somebody uh advertising or selling a product that they would not use themselves i'm like okay there we have a nice framework and i think i think that's pretty good right that's pretty good yeah the problem that you have is because so many people on the internet are grifting and shilling the sensitivity of everyone's radar has got turned up so much that you get pattern matched incorrectly all the time yeah and then oh my god like it is constraining to the way that everybody behaves because you think, well, fuck.

40:24Like if I, if I do this, if I say this thing, like for instance, when I do the ad reads for Modern Wisdom, I'm always thinking, even if this is true, this sounds like something. Dude, this is like, this isn't true. Have you ever been pulled over by a cop and you're, you're totally not doing anything wrong. And you're like fucking nervous. that's literally how that's what this is bro it's it's it's uh yeah oh my god i've done this this is so funny because this has happened to me so much like like i like i i do believe in this thing guys i swear to god and now that i'm arguing that i do believe in it you guys now for sure he feels like a shell what okay one time augie and i uh we were at this girl's boutique opening, like she opened this boutique, uh, like clothes store in, in Chicago.

41:21It's since been shut, you know, her daddy paid for it. Augie and I showed up both wearing Hawaiian shirts, uh, about two bottles of rose deep. We showed up and we were just the life of the party, you know, just, and it was, you know, this grand opening, all this stuff. We were making jokes and all this stuff. We left, had a great night, whatever. My buddy Hank calls me on the phone. He goes, hey, what's this I hear about you and Augie being gay together? And I'm like, you drank rosé and water a lot of the girls and went to a fashion thing. I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, yeah, you know, Olivia was like, you and Augie were acting all gay together.

42:02And I'm like, I was like, now come to think of it, we were acting pretty gay, you know? And now I'm like, dude, I first off, I swear I'm not gay. and saying that sentence made me feel gayer you know what i mean so i just stopped i was like look sure sure you know come to think of it we were pretty gay on that day and i would have suspected the same thing but you know it's it's just this this denying the thing that you know you aren't might make you you know more not complicit but like make people be not the lady doth protest too much exactly uh okay so another one that you've been talking about recently is cool right what makes something cool what's your best sort of working model of cool and how it works so the actionable thing about cool is like not talking seriously some of the coolest guys in austin actually don't talk you and i are patently uncool because of how much we speak right that's true that's it i mean that's that's it we could go down everything but it's like i talk too much i think too much you hear me on this podcast i'm just babbling not cool it's not cool so i just i don't try to be cool you know it's the same thing like i'm in music i cannot if i try to be cool i might be cringe you know if i try to be something i'm not i can't i can't i gotta just be my authentic self.

43:36I got to talk. I got to worry about things. That is very insightful. So there was a study done very recently. It came out about a month ago about what makes someone cool. So I'm going to take you through it and you can jump in whenever you're ready. Early writing on coolness described it as emotional restraint, being calm, composed, and unbothered. This view rooted in the metaphor of temperature and emotion. So coolness, right? coolness as a sign of self-control and mastery nice framing right not bad yeah uh they did a study of more than 5 000 people in 12 countries each participant was asked to evaluate non-famous people that they considered cool not cool and good or not good and rate them on 15 values and personality traits extroversion autonomy warmth conscientiousness stuff like that across the 12 countries, so huge range of cultures, different people's cool gets described in really similar ways.

44:32And you're talking like Africa, Western countries, Eastern countries. And what it suggests is that the meaning of cool has changed. And it's a way to identify and label people with a specific psychological profile, right? Because if it wasn't, they wouldn't converge on what cool means based on here are a bunch of different psychological profiles. So cool people are outgoing and social, so extroverted. They seek pleasure and enjoyment, so they're hedonistic. They take risks and try new things, so they're adventurous. They are curious and open to new experiences, open, and they have influence or charisma, powerful, and perhaps most of all, they do things their own way, autonomous.

45:16So extroversion, hedonism, power, adventurousness, openness and autonomy those six things right does that comport to a certain extent i i think is empowered i think one of the openness autonomy do you and i talk about this i think rare just being scarce if you're too available i mean this was uh i saw a really awesome clip from one of the guys from suicide boys awesome rap group and he was saying you know we we couldn't tell anyone in our hometown that we were good they saw us buying menthols at the you know the quick mart on a wednesday so we couldn't be like dude listen to our music i swear it's good they're like yeah whatever dude fuck off you know but to people in russia we were the suicide boys we were cool as shit you know it's uh you're uh a cheeseburger in your hometown and you're a steak elsewhere type of thing that is a level of cool and it's like rarity something we don't see aloofness yes aloofness so this is why you see like how come denzel washington doesn't have an instagram because if he did it would only detract from his cool so you know this is where like somebody at your status like might start playing with cool meaning aloofness and all that the problem is if it's not who you are as a person.

46:41Like we said. I'm getting to that. I'm getting to that. So that thing that you said before about authenticity, that fits in here too. But I do think you're right. I think that... We talk too much, dude. Aloofness, distance. It allows people to sort of suck in speculation and the speculation is cool. Sleep token. President. President's an even better example. Yeah, I mean, dude, let's take it even more Americana here. The new chick at your school. The new chick shows up at your school. She's hot. She's cool. She's different. She's new. You then by like second semester, you're just like, yeah, that's Sarah.

47:18Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. Boring. Okay. So this is, I said before that there was a difference between cool and good, right? So they're asking cool, not cool, good, not good. And it's interesting because you'd think, okay, are cool people good? Like intuitively you think no, but why? What's the difference between somebody who is cool and somebody who's good? So cool people were more likely to be described as extroverted, hedonistic, powerful, adventurous, open, and autonomous. So I think just to break that down, extroverted, outgoing, very good. Hedonistic, like, yeah, I can see that too, like sort of short-term pleasures.

47:50Powerful, yeah, you need to have that in order to be able to sort of enact your influence. Adventurous, yep, also true. Open, adventurous and open, very much so, like doing new things, trying new things, being creative, and autonomous, doing things their own way. So I think that makes sense. Good people, on the other hand, were more often described as conforming, traditional, secure, warm, agreeable, universalistic, conscientious, and calm. So this is like a cozy, reliable, relatively predictable, but hardworking person. and I think one of the reasons that good and cool are different for apart from the fact that there's only like a tiny little bit of crossover kind of an autonomous conscientious area uh is that the problem with cool people is they're unpredictable they're unpredictable because they're so extroverted adventurous and open and autonomous yeah they do their own thing yeah how the fuck you're going to be able to predict what they're going to do next yeah this is exactly why sleep token breaks convention when it comes to and why they're cool they're cool because they do seem to be doing things their own way well this is this is marketing this is the you know cultural industrial process through all of it is how can we how can we popularize cool because like essentially again we say like cool is underground different rare scarce okay so how do we make that popular?

49:20Cause that's just like the opposite. We, they did this with, um, like the hippie movement in the sixties. They did this with, I mean, essentially if you think of Nirvana, like Kurt Cobain to a certain extent, that's why he killed himself was because like it, he was incredibly depressed about what Nirvana became. It became the exact thing that they didn't want it to be um and like that's it's a counterculture basically popularizing a counterculture which could be counterculture is usually pretty cool well you had a good example of this represent george heaton's clothing company uh the owner's club which is that little thing left breast and then the big back print was becoming so ubiquitous and so worn across the uk that it was maybe going to go the way of burberry you know the burberry was worn by chavs in the uk did you know this no i didn't know what burberry it's got yeah it's kind of like a crosshatch a pattern with a sort of beige background um i don't know why i have no idea why but for most of sort of the 2000s to the early 2010s burberry was won by chavs in the uk and it was kind of a status symbol presume i don't know where the fuck it came from because when you actually think about the positioning of burberry it's like a classic british brand yeah it's trench coats, high collar trench coats.

50:41It's very formal. But anyway, they cottoned onto it and ran with it. I think you have seen the same to a degree with Stone Island, except for the fact that Stone Island is actually made for football hooligans, right? It's like padded jackets and sort of crew neck jumpers and stuff that kind of fits the aesthetic a bit more. Burberry was a bit more interesting. Anyway, represent owner's club. And I said this to George. I was like, mate, I see a lot of people wearing owner's club like hooray for your bottom line but are you concerned about overexposure and he said yeah we're killing the range you can no longer buy it starting in whatever month he's like it's it's gone it you it's gonna we're gonna do it because there is such a thing as too much exposure if you want to be cool and i think right it's interesting what what you've added in here because i do think that that's a dimension that's missing when it comes to cool how extroverted hedonistic, powerful, adventurous, open, and autonomous.

51:37Yeah. Aloof for that. But a good question would be, we'll get back to talking in just a minute, but first, some things are built for summer. Sunburns, hot girl walks, your ex posting their Euro road trip, and now lemonade and salt. Huh? Element just dropped their brand new lemonade salt flavor, and it's everything that you want on a hot day. Tart, salty, and stupidly refreshing. It's like a grown-up lemonade stand in a stick with actual function behind the flavor. Because, let's be real, if you're sweating through workouts, sauna sessions, or just walking to your car in July, then you are losing more than just water.

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52:41Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. why would you rather have a cool friend or a good friend i would much sooner have a good friend okay so why is it that regularly we choose to sort of push to one side unless we're very mindful right if we're a little bit more juvenile or immature we push to one side things that are good in place of things that are cool like what's the allure and there's a an interesting insight here that says coolness and goodness are related but they're not the same thing your grandma might be a really good person, but that doesn't necessarily make her cool.

53:26The distinction matters because it helps explain why we admire people for different reasons. One attribute, only one attribute, which is being capable, right? So power on one and I think conscientiousness on the other was seen as equally cool and good. And I think that the interesting thing about being capable is that if you're unable to be capable, you can't enact your will into the world. How can you be cool if you're at the mercy of the world? And how can you be good if you can't push back against the world. So I was like, huh, okay, that's pretty interesting. And the final bit that loops to what you said, if you want to be cool, authenticity matters.

54:03Previous research shows that trying to be cool usually doesn't work. Trying to be cool usually doesn't work and can cause someone to lose status in the eyes of others. With wealth, people tend to respect it more if they believe that someone worked hard to earn it. So you can think silver spoon versus is self-made millionaire. Coolness works differently. If people think you're trying to be cool, you lose credibility. That's because coolness is about autonomy, originality, and being unconcerned with fitting in. And the fact that so many cultures agree on what makes someone cool suggests that coolness may serve some sort of shared social function.

54:40So it's kind of adaptive in a way, right? The evolutionary build side of this. The traits that make people cool may make them more likely to try new things, innovate new styles and fashions, and influence others. These individuals often push boundaries, introduce new ideas in fashion, art, politics, or technology. They inspire others and help shape what's seen as modern, desirable, or forward-thinking. Coolness in this sense might function as a kind of cultural status marker, a reward for being bold, open-minded, and innovative. It's not just about surface style. It's about signaling that you're actually ahead of the curve and that other people should pay attention.

55:11But the authenticity thing is a big part. And I thought that was so funny. We love people that are self-made millionaires, hate people that are trying to be cool yeah yeah authenticity is a wild one isn't it because it's like you need status to show off that your authentic self is worthwhile looking at at least like in content creation or or whatever like somebody's authentic self like no one could care about seeing it there's lots of people that are authentic but don't have any status so they're not respected for their authenticity right it's what you know it's it is a amalgamation of a bunch of things as well.

55:47There are like juggernauts in, in music that are like getting older. You know, you have Beyonce, Jay Z, Taylor Swift, and even like the weekend. Rick Beato had a big thing on this is like the, the room for cool to come up and, and take over. It's just like, it's much like we're much more corporatized with our pop artists now. And it seems, it seems as, like that what was the what are some of the last breakthrough artists well it just written off the back of cool in your opinion oh man well like current like current breakthrough artists i mean billy eilish is super cool i think um but she's a juggernaut and she's been around breakthrough is not due to being cool right right i don't i don't know if i don't know red clay strays i wouldn't even say they're like i'm talking huge sure i look it's like um Bob Dylan was just cool, dude.

56:47Right, okay. Like, I don't think a Bob Dylan could exist now. And... Why? It's just too, like, the world is just too, like, corporate. And, like, I don't want to sound like a hippie on this, but, like, the process of growing from an independent artist to becoming a Bob Dylan is just too difficult. Really? It's too different. It's too different. rewarded whatever the market wants that gatekeepers are there but if you can say hey put me in a fucking spangly blue unitard and let me do a backflip off this fucking benson boone sign people are gonna people are gonna like it then they'll go that way yeah or if they say we're not gonna tell you our names well how about this on they're gonna go that way it used to be like man i heard this band is really good we gotta go check them out and like it would be a record label or an anr guy from a record label or something to go check them out like they don't have to do that anymore they just check tiktok see who's trending so then now the filter is like okay well who can put together the best video for that sort of potential to exist well because the route to success has been sort of narrowed down through this one aperture which is attention online right that's it like what was the last i don't even know what this is the last band that came up the old way by playing live gigs with no online presence simply doesn't exist.

58:16You mentioned Rachel McAdams is another good example of this, but Denzel Washington, two big film people that don't have Instagram. Name me the biggest band on the planet that doesn't have Instagram. Oh, wait, it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. It can't exist. I'm sure that there's an outlier that's going to make my fucking hat. But largely the point being promotion is the name of the game eyes attention right that is how you grow and move through the industry uh so it is in that way that makes sense because if the only sort of path to success is squeezing yourself through attention online there are only so many ways that you can do that right right the the the rules of the game online are more compressed than they are when you're just listening to a song and saying, do I like this thing or not?

59:08Or going to see a show live and saying, was that good or not? As opposed to, did this particular video or post manipulate the small number of levers that work the algorithm in a manner to be able to get them to gain attention, right? So it's like taking something from 4K to 360p or full color to black and white. There's only a few ways to do it. And people can try and be innovative. Like the world of brand at the moment, all of the biggest brands, Nutonic included, but the photos are all like, here's a thing that's going on and oh, there's a product over there. Here's a thing that's going on and oh, there's a product over there because the world of sort of front led marketing has kind of died.

59:50Yes. And now it's all about lifestyle marketing. It's like, what's the life that you live alongside this product? Yes. And it's just the game that you need to play. Yeah. So the typical kind of music thing is to do a performance online, you know, and then post that. But if you have a song coming out, you can keep doing performances of your song, like pre-save here, check out my new song and all this stuff. Already tired just saying that. It's like boring, you know? and I've done a bunch of live performances on my Instagram and only one or two of them have like broken through. I've probably done 40.

1:00:30It's like countless hours of trying to like just play a song and here listen to my stuff and like two of them have broken through. So I one time made just bullshit videos on things that I was thinking. Like I don't know just nonsense for 30 days and I got 19.9 million views, gained 30 ,000 followers. Not one of them had to do with music. It was just me talking about life and people were like, I like that, blah, blah, blah, you know? So that window is so much easier to grab people's attention. It is really difficult to... The problem that you have, and it's great, and congratulations for fucking crushing it on Instagram, but you now need to somehow convert those people that came for the vibe into a viewer.

1:01:19And here's the thing, I'm not even going to try. I'm just going to say, if you guys want it, here it is. Because I can't make people do anything. You can't make anyone do anything. But the few that go, they're going to be like, damn, this is really good. And I have had a lot of that. There's a line between how much are you growing whatever it is that you do. We used to do this in Nightlife where the cool kids from around town or the hot girls or whatever, they're the ones that you want at the launch of your new event. And you'd be befriending them and, you know, asking them if they want to go for coffee or like checking in about how their fucking football team or like whatever, like some bullshit that you don't care about to then cash in the favor that you've built up this sort of social equity that you and this person have accrued or that you feel like you've accrued with this person by doing favors for them or whatever.

1:02:12And then you want them to bring their 15 hot girl friends this event that you've got that's launching on friday night at fucking top top palace in newcastle or whatever and uh that was very tip for tat i think that it made me see a lot of marketing and sort of that side of social dynamics is very transactional it was kind of a little bit like being a stripper a little bit like being a stripper like an only fans yeah yeah you know um but that and what you're doing here is basically the same thing it's just a much longer game with no, you're not asking someone to come to the nightclub at the end of it.

1:02:46And I think when it, to sort of loop it all back to authenticity, what people can fall in love with is somebody like Dry Creek Dwayne, that wrangler guy that I had on the show about a year ago. And he is somebody who is so authentic or the Rizla, right? The better example. We're waiting for him to come up, weren't you? The Rizla. Why is that kid interesting? because it seems like he's being himself. And when did it get cringe? When they started doing like dance videos and stuff. Yeah. It felt like it was contrived. I want to watch this 32 BMI 12 year old.

1:03:58I want to watch him I mean, I don't even... She looks great. Say what you want. She looks great on a Zen pick. Fucking stacked abs and everything. Yeah. I mean, she's got insane genetics. She's got the best genetics. Yeah. But also has always been a thicker girl. Yeah. But there's been a ton of muscle underneath that. Whatever, you know. So then... She's black Sunny Webber. Yeah. So like... Black female Sunny Webber. If you take a GLP-1 and you've always been a jacked person, you just have a little bit of extra body fat, you look great. but if you take a GLP-1 you've never worked out a day in your life you look terrible horrible awful disgusting yeah you look awful I mean look that's the the biggest takeaway has been that most people who have an issue with people losing weight through GLP-1s are not fat people that have actually done the work the natural way because they feel like they're being threatened right like you would think you could imagine a different world where it was well see but this this is why this is why performance matters more than everything you know you could you can i know this is gonna again this is gonna like what's your 5k bro like what's your can you like go up a set of stairs without huffing and puffing can you just walk around like yeah you you took a bunch of glp ones to lose you know 30 pounds but like are you capable physically?

1:05:26And the answer is no, you're not. So it's like, I still am, you know, that's, that's at least what people could hang their hat on who did it the right way. That's true. Yeah. Well, I mean, performance will always have to be at the forefront of weight loss, in my opinion. That's because in order to achieve a calorie deficit without GLP ones, you need to create the deficit through moving more as well, as opposed to just eating. And it's, and it's likely going to be a better process and a more fulfilling process. If that added movement has performance metrics attached to it oh i'm lifting more weights this week uh or or like my you know mile time has gone down these sorts of things like it's something happening inside other than just fat loss and actually and what says on the skin and actually probably a little bit of bone density losses yeah i mean the most healthy way to go about this is to just say the weight loss or looking better or feeling better is just uh secondary to your performance increase well in that in that case does this make an argument that people who are already training should be the ones that go for glp ones the most maybe sure because they already understand what it is to do the things that mitigate the muscle loss and the bone density and all the rest of the stuff i mean yeah i mean the the the question then it's is like you know performance enhancing drugs as well it's the same thing i'm pretty sure are glp ones allowed in sport i don't even yeah Yeah, I don't know.

1:06:50I should know that. Because that would be a huge game changer. You want me to go move down a weight class? For sure. Or anything that requires lower body weight, which is like... Running. Yeah, many different sports. Like, lower body... Run a marathon, lose 10 pounds, run a marathon again. It's going to be easier the second time. Do you know Magnus Midpo? Yes, the rock climber. Fuck me. I was watching him do the Norseman, which is this... extreme triathlon. I think it's a, maybe a 5k swim, 140k bike ride, and then a marathon at the end of it. But the elevation change is fucking absurd, right? And the water, you jump into the water at four in the morning and it's in a freezing lake and wherever the fuck.

1:07:39Wait, Fergus did this. Maybe. The Norseman it's called. Yeah. And you can choose different paths depending on the weather. Have you seen that one? I don't think this is the same. They both suck, but it depends on where the clouds are, because you literally can't see it. No, no, no, it's not this one. This one, the first 160 people that get past this point get a black t-shirt because they have to do what's called Zombie Hill, which is the steep incline at the very end, and the remaining people get a white t-shirt. Anyway, I just watched, I mean, that rock climber guy, I've started being served his shit online.

1:08:13He is a fucking freak. There is nothing he can't do. French Foreign Legion selection process, walked it, trained for 14 days, trained for 14 days to do the Norseman, came in 79th out of hundreds of people that had been training for over a year. And they did his VO2 Max as a part of this thing. VO2 Max came in at 59. Holy shit. At his age too, it's crazy. Yeah, because he's probably late 30s, right? Yeah. Age is a huge, huge factor for VO2. 59. They were like, elite is 50. I got to get mine tested, bro, because I've been chirping my comments section, show VO2 max. Just show VO2, bitch. I mean, it's a pretty base response, you know?

1:08:53Like, what's your total was my previous one response, and now show VO2 is another one too. But you haven't done your VO2. No, I got to go do it. But I do think like... We can do it at Nutribull. Yeah, no. Eric will do it. Yeah. Kind of nervous for that. I fear that I would suck a lot. is it so vo2 is that built through low low end zone 2 stuff or no no there's different tests but they always peak it always increase in terms of building it in terms of the work that you do to build it is it both your oh it's slow runs and your fast runs i'm again i'm way out of my accuracy budget yeah give me that accuracy budget baby okay but i would imagine it's everything it's like an amalgamation of stuff but i do think that like okay the nordic 4x4 thing norwegian 4x4 for the idea of like threshold pace and then like not full recovery but like damn near full recovery and then threshold like it's just that threshold work just getting your heart going and pumping just constantly without fully maxing out and like because once you fully max out the session's over you know and i'm talking fully full like sessions i asked i asked andy galpin about this because what i'd been doing was threshold so i'm right in saying threshold is like just pulling below anaerobic right sure yeah it's it's like not completely killing yourself so that you basically can't come back from it and holding the highest average pace that you can for four minutes three minutes off four rounds of that so four on three off four on three or four on three or four on three yeah assault bike is by far for the people that want to try it assault bike is by far the easiest way to do this because you don't have to start or stop anything you don't have to get on or get off If anything, you can speed up and slow down as much as you want.

1:10:39And Rhonda Patrick, when she came on the show, said that this reversed two decades of heart aging in the study that this was done on. Two decades of heart aging is done. And I think it was once a week in untrained individuals for one year, one or two years. So it's like 104, either 52 or 104 sessions. And that's the effect. I spoke to Andy Galpin. He was like, no, no, no, no. I want you to end yourself as fast as possible and then try and hold on. and just like spike that heart rate as high as you go and then just hold on and then he said when the second one comes along it's like you can do the same thing but it's just going to be lower and then the third one yeah you can do the same thing and it's going to be lower it might it what what you might run into is kind of it the same thing occurs like the breadth of intensity over the course of the session might be the same you know it's like it's going to be higher peaks Yeah, or your performance goes down, but you had a way high performance in that first bout.

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1:12:12Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is only$500. And right now, the first thousand people can get an additional$100 off, meaning it's only 400 bucks to get the exact same blood panel that I use. Just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. What have you learned from running for a hundred days? Oh, dude, I have a great analogy for this. I was thinking about this on the way here. It's like showing up to a classroom. So your mind is the class of kids.

1:12:45Let's say like 16 year old kids and you show up and you're the substitute teacher. Those kids are not listening. They're like, fuck you. You can't even be like, all right, guys, put your phones away. They're like, nah, fuck you, dude. That's your first run for me. My mind was like, this is terrible. This is terrible. This is the worst thing ever. We're going to stop. And I'm like, you know what? Screw it. Like, we'll get out of class early. That was day one. You know, day 50, you're like, phones are away. Kids are still interrupting. You're kind of able to like get out the work that needs to be done.

1:13:19But the kids are still not listening by day 100 today, which is amazing. I already did my, it's like you can look at the kids and be like all right we're doing what we need to do and everyone's like yeah i know and they they look up and they're like can we get our phones out you're like no what do you mean by the kids what are it's like that's your mind being like this is so annoying i really don't want to do it it is a distinct this is why i truly believe like when i say the word run go for a run or running almost universally the response is oh god no no way because when you start your heart rate goes up your muscles fatigue and you want to stop period you just want to if you're on a bike you can sit and you can go a little bit slower you know rower you're sitting you know it's something distinctly about running that is just brutal in that way and so my approach to this and i have since i think it's a million views i was like guys, I'm a running influencer now.

1:14:22And I call it gaslighting yourself into becoming a runner. Essentially, if we look at what running is, it's hopping from one foot to the other, just doing that. So what I want you to do is as little effort as humanly possible, hopping from your left foot to your right foot, and then doing that in succession, really minimal effort. Now we're just going to lean forward a little bit and move forward. I don't give a shit what your pace is I don't care at all I want you to do that for 20 minutes and like accidentally you're gonna run like a mile and a half and you'll look at me and you'll be like I have not run over 400 meters in two decades bro I go exactly this is what it is so I started and I was just like I'm just gonna see if I can hop for 40 minutes I didn't even look at how far I ran but it was always over like two and a half miles or whatever.

1:15:15And I just kept doing that over and over again. And then someone would be like, Hey, do you want to run with me? I'd be like, I'm not very good, but yeah. And I would go and I would die because I could try to keep up with them. And it's just like, you just constantly over you're overreaching and you're coming back. And I'm just a noob. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, dude. Like I'm not, I'm new to this, but I had to eliminate my ego entirely. There was no pace there is no zach the runner there's no gear that i have to buy there's no nothing it's just hop from one leg to the next for 40 minutes why is running taken off so much at the moment do you think i think um influence you know i i would be remiss if i said that i'm not hopping on a trend but the reason i started was i had this idea i was taking a shit and i was like hey it'd be really cool to run a mile in 10 minutes and then tomorrow try to run it in 9 50 and then the next day of 9 40 that's why i started posting and that's why i started running every day and today is the hundredth day of doing that not not the mile thing obviously i gave up on that 22 days in and just continued to run and continue to post but the reason why i think it's trending is yeah influence like just it's it looks cool the bodies are cool that are doing it and we can get into the hybrid thing too um but the reality is you're taking this aspect of fitness that everyone once you go to the gym and once you grow muscle you're like this aspect of fitness i'm genuinely not gonna like the cardio aspect the and it's a hugely important scientifically like it is the biggest you know you've had if you talk to peter atia on here that's his thing too it's like uh crf cardiorespiratory fitness is like the most important thing period um also having muscles as well and once you have muscles you're like i don't want to do this so what the runners have figured out or the people who want to run is like we have hacked our brains into like kind of like competing to get better times and to see how far we can run and now we have this aspect of our fitness that is now taken care of because we're we're legitimizing it in our mind if that makes sense it's helped me for sure i'm in the best shape that i've been in in years uh because i'm like i want i want to see if i can get my 5k time down you know and i just train the shit out of my upper body and like i normally it feels a lot like the hybrid thing is kind of coming on already i'm not sure maybe i think you know i think fewer people post about high rocks and more people post about just running yeah that it's hard to know like what what's happening and where culture am i being exposed to exactly like a tiny corner of the internet yeah yeah but i will say this like the the hybrid shtick that everyone loves to hate on is like oh so you're a shitty bodybuilder and you're a shitty runner and it's like i'll look at fonds our boy ian right he's not a he's what Everyone wants to look like him.

1:18:25Okay. Takes his shirt off. Everyone goes, yeah, that's, that's pretty fucking solid right there. So right there, bad bodybuilder says who? Okay. Then he posts like his Strava. It's like eight miles at a 608 mile pace. That's really good for, for, you know, an average runner or a shitty runner as everyone says. So it's like, okay, well, that is a guy who's a gym bro who has now, um, hacked his way into like getting his cardio in and maintaining leanness. Has the fake natty debate come for running yet? Ooh, I don't know. I don't see it. Because you can't really fake your Strava thing unless you're going to jump on a bird fucking scooter.

1:19:08That would be awesome. You did 22 miles an hour for a lot of this run. But I'm just wondering, because the only anchor that I have for this is the world of bodybuilding and fitness. Yeah. And the equivalent would be, well his physique versus his physique this particular trend performance enhancing drugs age all of this stuff um but the running community i guess well running is an olympic sport so there's going to be doping like at the highest level there's going to be doping and then at amateur levels sure you know and that's this is how like icarus started was amateur level doping is like huge because amateur races are huge.

1:19:53Amateurs love to go as hard as they can. You know, it's like they're a yuppie during the day. They're just like working on the computers, day trading. And then they're like, can't wait to post their Stravas, you know, and go try and beat their homies in, in marathon stuff. They're just hyper competitive people. So naturally PEDs are going to fall right into that. And that's how Icarus started. People like, forget that like it was not an initially a um documentary to expose the the russian doping plan it was a documentary to see he was like i wonder if i can like get my time to be better by getting drugs supervised drugs it just so happened that rod chenkov was his supervisor who was like the linchpin of of like russian doping yeah and it ended up being an incredible documentary because of it i love that documentary it was he did a second one right but it wasn't like a serial i don't know he did the dude that did it went on to go and do a second one yeah it's uh i've been watching tour de france unchained on netflix and uh there's three seasons of this it's basically drive to survive the formula one thing but for tour de france bro it's so fucking compelling like that is that is so hardcore what those guys do it is unbelievable yeah isn't there like a stud right now uh there's a couple of there's a taddy pogaccia uh who is one and jonas finger god who are the kind of the the two yeah guys that are trading back and forth one of them had a really bad fall over the last 12 months and then came back i think that was the gyro d 'italia and then didn't have a long time to turn himself around ready for the tour and uh just struggled but yeah these guys are freaks and it's it's a sick disgusting sport cycling yeah to see the reason i really really like it is that the protracted uh suffering story is really compelling um in a way that drive to survive or even thor bjornsson just broke the deadlift record again right super impressive 510 kilos just keeps going up unbelievable but there's no story there's no story around the pursuit all of the stories in the preparation of the pursuit when you're watching uh unchained tour de france on netflix it is like it's so i mean let's go simple with it how about the art of traveling through space and time like on a cycle these guys are up in like beautiful italian alps cruising through switzerland of course it's it's poetic and it's like it's been poetic bro it's even the thor sniffing fucking nose no yeah like just sitting like i can't i shouldn't move because i need to deadlift today so i'm just gonna sit and eat food and then i'm gonna deadlift like yeah it's not as romantic remotely as romantic and And just thinking of like, bro, 70s Tour de France racing is like the most poetic shit ever.

1:23:00Some guy like smoking a cigarette, like getting a bike ready for this guy is like, are you ready for the race tomorrow? Like, you know what I mean? Like in somewhere in fucking Milan or whatever. That is romance. We will race very fast tomorrow. We're going to race tomorrow. It's a bigger race. I'm going to be a baby. You know? Well, it's either that. I love, dude, this. That or 2000s. when our boys fucking lands. You want to get me fired up on shit? It's like romanticism of things that may have no romanticism around it whatsoever. For instance, Billy Strings. Do you know Billy Strings? No. So there's a style of guitar.

1:23:35It's bluegrass. And it's kind of flat picking. So you like almost pick every note. You do a lot of hammer-ons. So you go like, doo-doo, you know, and you hammer on, pull off. But a lot of, you know, these guys would be great in metal. In fact, Billy Strings, I think, was just on a fucking metal tune, which was amazing. But he was talking, I think it was on Theo Vaughn and he was like, I did meth and I stayed up for two, three days playing guitar. That was it. That was all I did. I don't, I don't think I went to the bathroom. I don't think I did anything but played guitar. And I was like, did this just make meth romantic?

1:24:14Am I just like, you know what I mean? Like if there is a story, I'm just a story bitch. You know what I mean? anything anything like that like cocaine can be romanticized well certainly some of the stories that you hear about that like when you hear uh charlie sheen right he's just got this new series that's coming out at the moment and uh i feel like i've seen clips from that yeah um but he was you know i was banging seven gram rocks and finishing them you're like you're like good story that's that's cool i mean until your life falls apart that's cool right right yeah but no you are right i there's certainly something about it feels a little sterile now to have everything so dialed yes yes bro this is like the there's a meme about we can talk about running again it's like there's the the like just got into running pretty good at running and then like the badass runner and the badass runner is like same shoes from 1996 like shitty shorts like casio watch and just like some shitty hat.

1:25:18He's like, I don't know, dude. I just ran like a two 30 marathon. I don't know, whatever. That's romance right there. We love that. And it's, you know, to go back to the tour, it's like, well, we can't science everything. It just always comes back to suffering, which is so romantic. I'm going to put myself through hell and then it's going to feel awful and everything's going to be telling me no. And I'm going to keep saying yes. And yes, That was one of the reasons that the Kipchoge two, breaking two thing was awesome, but actually a little bit less awesome. For sure. Than it should have been.

1:25:57He had people he was drafting off of. And a Tesla in front of him that he was pacing off of and lasers on the floor. And they'd done specific genetic testing to work out precisely the fall off of glucose in his muscles. And this is the mixture that's at this point. This is the mixture that's at this point. And that's sick. and it's basically exciting in its own way it's treating a human like a formula one yeah like like an engineering project to be mastered and that's really beautiful but i don't know whether you would necessarily look again chris this is another duality we have practicality and we have the fucking story dude and so much of this podcast and so much of what you do is like demands practicality it demands uh optimization it demands all these things but at the end of the day bro the The way I know you, the way that you think is, it's up in the cloud.

1:26:47Like you, yeah. And you, it's like, you feel like you're in a movie and you know, things can uplift you in a way. Like looking at your vlogs from your tour shows, those are not, that's not optimization. That's just love and like the hero's journey. And we all have to dig into that. and so much of the content in everything that we're wrapped up in all the time is like here's the best way to do this here's this this this is and it's like at the end of the day just shut the fuck up let me just feel this story and at least believe in something that might not even even exist is that not the lure of somebody like uh david goggins or a cameron haynes sure sort of a blunt instrument that's kind of i i don't really uh i saw truitt do the leadville 100 yeah and uh He does this video and he's talking about how he's got, are they called drop bags maybe?

1:27:45Or grab bags or something? It's the aid station prefabricated this much glucose and this bar and this other stuff. And they're already made, like little pack lunches, I guess, for your run. And they're at each of the different stations or whatever. And his dad had left, Cam had left, and didn't have anything. And he said, yeah, dad left the house. and he didn't have any drop bags, he'll probably just go to a gas station like at night and just find, like see if there's anything there that he likes to look of and like some beef jerky and the RX bar or something. Yeah. Yeah, I just thought, I think that that is part of the allure.

1:28:26But even within that, people are so quick to jump on the cringe thing, right? Because that's - Yeah, but results can beat the shit out of that. Fuck that off. Totally. Well, that's a good, that is a good point. Results are so underrated. It's crazy. As a fucking salve. Yeah. Cringe. Shut the fuck up. Here's my results. Fuck off. Like. I mean, that's the same thing as the sleep token stuff, right? That you say, who are these fucking homos in masks? One of these fucking theater kids doing in masks. They are theater kids. That's great. Okay. Yeah. But. Results. Yeah. Come on. Same as Noah from Bad Omens.

1:29:03Yeah. I mean, yeah. Too aloof. You don't talk enough. I want to see more forward-facing stuff. And you go, we break records all the time. We're like one of the biggest rock bands in the world. Where do you feel like you could improve as far as... Just where do you feel like you could improve? How about that? How about that for a question? I'm going to flip the script. Endless list of things. If we stay on topic then. uh i think i would be significantly happier and significantly better at the things that matter most to me if i cared less about the opinions of others uh a lot of yeah but bro you don't realize how little you care about people's opinions because i i see it and this is this is the thing this is my job is to be like like for instance your tiktok dude there was a video where i'm not kidding you there were thousands of comments just brah fucking bore in your tiktok bro and you're like oh i i forgot i had a tiktok yeah that you don't know how little you actually care that's easy but that's easy to do when you're that's there's a difference between not caring and being ignorant okay i was ignorant right that had that ever i mean this is a great a great example i'm glad you brought that up when that happened and it's happened a lot when that one happened the first thought in my head was how silly for me to care about this furor fucking meltdown that's happened on this stupid little platform that i don't even you know like how silly yeah and then immediately my next thought was oh that's all of them that's all of them that's all that's the whole thing but how did it happen how did it have happened on my youtube i had it have happened in my spotify comments how did it have happened as a response to my email that i sent at fuck if it was in my email inbox right the one that i sent three minute monday out from uh then i would have been oh oh that the i've done i've done gone fucking fuck myself here um so okay you may disagree but um not fully not fully carrying less carrying less about or at least fearing fearing the sort of judgment stuff right um would would make a big difference because i think there's lots of things that i like the idea of doing um but for fear of looking silly uh for fear of criticism for fear of getting it wrong i don't move as quickly as i should do i take i'm very sort of deliberate which is good because it means that i kind of rarely fail at most decisions that i make right but it also means that i'm leaving so much on the table by going so slowly with things and uh there's levels to this game right like i'm comparing myself to people that move really really fast and break shit all the time and other people who might move more slowly whatever whatever um so that would be one thing i think sort of the opinions of others um the uh this is kind of associated to it but the the bravery to the the bravery to believe that you've sort of got the support of uh people even if you're not continually putting stuff in front of them.

1:32:20So like continuing to be prodigious at like the pace that stuff goes out, you know, quarter of a million words written on the newsletter over the last five years. And, and that goes out every single Monday and, and, and the pod and all the rest of the stuff. But because there is a little bit of a hamster wheel that you get on with regards to that, which I love, a big part of the reason there's 150 episodes a year is because I want to have 150 conversations. And if I drop down to two a week, I only get a hundred and that's a lot less. And that sucks. I want to have this many conversations, but you don't get to do the aloof thing.

1:32:57Right. At what point do you think that you will have the results that you want, that you can step back and not try less hard, but work less hard? I don't know what that means. like i understand that means that maybe means publish fewer podcasts but that means for me i have to have fewer conversations and that would that's like a hundred a year a hundred i get a hundred so each person's one percent yeah that's a lot hard yeah that's hard let's take it for me because that's what i've got used to and so much of it's anchoring buyers you know you look at um guys that do one episode a week and that's one one week is two percent of the whole inventory for the whole year and i'm like yeah oh my god unbelievable i do like that you're doing like these live events because that can it's the big push it's a big spike like i got to do something extra i got to push myself a little bit so that's that's actually a really good point um i am a creature of routine uh as you know yeah and uh that has been a huge benefit it and i think that people who don't have routine will regularly have their lunch eaten by people that do because there's not there's basically nothing that you can achieve in this world that doesn't require consistency even the greatest one hit wonder like gangnam style or whatever the fuck i bet that guy had spent or whoever wrote that song right not just do it out of thin air The construction of that particular fucking cultural moment was not just conceived of overnight and then published the next day.

1:34:37That's not the way it works. However, if you're the sort of person who has a disposition, I like routine, I sort of get into this, it becomes the groove that you sink into quickly becomes like a valley that you can't climb out of. And you get locked into ways of operating, ways of thinking. But how does that make you feel then? Like if it, if it's interrupting your, your, you, it's interrupting the very person you are. Do you feel like, do you feel like you're okay? You know what I mean? Do you feel like, like, do you ever feel like you're swimming in deep waters because of the amount of work that you're doing or the amount of?

1:35:19sometimes sometimes i do um it doesn't get super overwhelming hasn't gotten the most overwhelming it was was last year last year was the most overwhelming this year has been overwhelming for a different reason because i've been trying to have two jobs at once one which is my job and the other which is fixing my health um but last year was the the sort of closest i came there's a vlog from la when i do all these episodes back to back to back to back to back in the fucking car garage and I'm in between two of these episodes. I've got my head sort of resting. My eyes are resting in the heels of the palms of my hands.

1:35:56And I was like, yeah, that guy's, that's too much. That's sort of pushing too hard. But on the flip side of that, this is the perennial question that we sort of started with. People want to really fucking, I want to make a dent in the world. I really want to make a dent in the world. And I want to enjoy my time too. And how do I find this balancing act? It's a silly pursuit though, trying to make a dent in the world, but you do it anyways. Everyone does. So Frank Zappa, there's a really interesting interview. I don't know who was asking the question. I think it might've been either like Barbara Walters or Katie Couric.

1:36:34And they're like, how do you want to be remembered when you die? And he's like, what? I'm dead. You're talking about, I don't, there's no remembering. There's no me. Mm-hmm. And he died. I mean, he like knew this was a premonition he had. And I saw it and I was like, oh, that's, you know, that's the reality of this whole thing. Oh, yeah. If by making a dent that sounded like leave a legacy, that is not what I meant. Yeah. I simply meant I want to feel like I happened to life. And that when I get to look back, I'm like, fuck, like, yeah, like I did a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really did a thing.

1:37:09And there is a mark that was left as opposed to me kind of just coasting through. All that being said, you're right with what you say about doing the live show sort of rips you out of the hamster wheel it rips you out of that sort of um regularity it's the reason that you know i was in i basically lived in new york for a month last month and then went and did uh london straight from there then i'm back then i'm back to london for the health conference then i'm doing the roast of andrew human la then i'm doing tony robbins then i'm back and then we're on tour and that's the final third of this year is just fucking trips to the uk la and tour that's it yeah so imagine you have a theater full of people they're all bright bright eyed and ready to watch you and they're there to listen to you and you and you finish up and it was great you finish up and you go you guys this experience that you had me talking to you didn't matter because my eyes are on my future and I want to make a dent in the world.

1:38:11That's what they offer. You would never say that. We live in a digital space where you can have an impact on people and a comment will come. A thousand comments will come. Holy shit, Chris. Oh my god. Even, you know, but because maybe it happens so much and maybe your eyes are set on the next what's next, what's next, these people that are coming up to you. That is, this is like the ultimate gratitude max that you need to work on. So low impact. This is one of the things I think that we see, one of the reasons that you see creator burnout online. And it's so strange to look at whatever percentage of primary school children want to be a YouTuber or a content creator or an influencer or whatever for a job.

1:39:01And you are going out of your way to pick a job which has a really huge asymmetry between the level of gratitude that people think they will have before they get into it and the level of gratitude that people have when they do get into it. So there's a few examples like this. New Orleans, a place that is one of the most fun for me to visit, that is one of the least enjoyable that I would like to live. Pickleball, one of the most fun to play that is one of the worst to spectate, right? Things that from the outside are different. George Mack's got his Call of Duty versus war thing, right? What does Call of Duty looks like?

1:39:43Being in a band. Being in a band from the outside looks fantastic. You're on the road. You get to have loads of fun. You're playing in front of crowds. People sing your songs, all the rest of it. From the inside, you don't have a routine. Your sleep's all over the place. Your health's fucked. You forget to eat a square meal and your relationship is in the toilet. That's the reality of it call of duty versus war one of the things that when you look at and it's a unique category right because it's swallowed up so many other umbrellas of other other bits of work musicians are also content creators and fucking news anchors are also content creators and poets you know um it is the least in many ways the most sterile and least gratifying form of having a massive amount of impact in terms of your positive feedback.

1:40:30And that's not to say that I or anyone, you, anybody else that's sort of in our circle are ungrateful for how fucking amazing it is that people love what we do, but that for how much people love what we do, the level of felt sense is just so we did when I was doing the tour with James two years ago, when we did our first like live tour we played to 350 people in edmonton right and it was fucking freezing cold like actually freezing freezing cold we went outside to this port-a-cabin thing and there was pizza actually quite nice pizza and and warm diet sprite warm diet i remember warm diet sprite and pretty good pizza and then i went out and i did my half hour and i came back and james did his thing and that was so fun i remember the drum and bass dj that came on after us and i remember and the same thing just is not true in the same way and i think that humans the way that we're built to feel gratitude and imbibe memories and like encode the shit that we've experienced is much more visceral and felt in person yes right in person i have a great example of this do you remember meeting me at the bar here?

1:41:49And I was like, bro, some, I went up, uh, I went up to the bartender. I said, do you guys have any non-alcoholic beers? And they're like, actually we don't. I was like, that's fine. I'll just get a rambler. He comes up and he goes, I love your music. This one's on the house. And you showed up after it. And I was like, what do you mean? You, you love my music? Like, he's like, what do you mean? What do I mean? I'm like, well, do you follow me on Instagram? He's like, no, dude, I just saw your music on Spotify. I recognized you. That had never happened to me before, ever, ever. I took a picture of that rambler.

1:42:24You showed up and I told you about it at that moment. That is, if that's not gratitude, I don't know what is. And that is a interpersonal relationship right there. That is it touching, reaching out and touching them. And that, yeah. I say that, actually, I say that about the influencer thing, but I have to assume that authors, you know, you spend all of this time writing this big treatise thing, and this is forever. This is fucking Hunchback of Notre Dame. It's everything, right? And you write this big tome, and then it goes off and it gets printed, and people read it or buy it. You see the money, and then maybe charts or whatever.

1:43:03And maybe you even see sort of tweets and all of this stuff back and forth. But these people have spent hours, hours immersed in this very interactive relationship between what you put and them and their, the unique thing about reading, it's the only pursuit really that you can do now as a recreation that is a, it's a mono pursuit. So while doing it, you can be doing nothing else. Right. Right. Even rolling Brazilian jujitsu, you can be thinking about your fucking relationship yeah right while you're reading unless you're doing that thing where you're scanning the words and then you just have to go back but that's not reading uh you can't do anything you can't do anything else so it's a really unique this person's like lived or you you the writer the author is lived inside of this person's fucking mind like it's some weird it's why bro it's why i pursue music so hard and i love you know it's like the guy who does those sculptures, the sand sculptures, or not even sand sculptures, like ice sculptures, things that just go away.

1:44:07Beauty, people, you admire the beauty, but the fact that there's a time limit on it makes it even more beautiful. Bonnie Blue, time limit on it. Your 10 minutes are up, sweetheart. Goodbye. I got 900 to go. No, so like playing, playing for people who don't know who I am who are like, oh, this is awesome in that moment. And then they just leave and never think of me again. Like I actually think that's amazing. I think that's awesome. How, how much less awesome would it be if that was just on shuffle on Spotify or was on the radio or was a thousand times less. Yeah. Because they don't, you don't get to see the, for those 3.5 minutes while you're playing the song you don't get to feel the the positive reinforcement so yeah i think it's a a huge missing uh component um that sense of sort of positive reinforcement to the thing you got to reach out and touch grass yeah well you got to touch grass but you have to reach out and shake hands with people you have to holy shit yeah zach talender ladies and gentlemen where should people go check out all the shit you're doing uh check out my music it rules any streaming sites just search telender spotify apple all that good stuff uh instagram zach underscore telender and youtube zach telender uh wait chris i have one thing i have hit me don't end the show it's a rhythm stick hit me okay Okay, this one's going to be...

1:45:47Get serious here for a second. Okay.

1:45:53Chris, so much of the good in my life has occurred because you've been in it. You've taught me lessons I couldn't teach myself. You inspired me to work harder. You have been an incredible influence on me these five very formative years of my life. Because of you, I believe in myself. because of you, I believe I'm smart enough to speak freely in front of audiences. Because of you, I believe that I have enough talent to perform my songs for crowds I wouldn't dream of playing for. Because of you, I know what it means to have a friend. In a time in a man's life when the rubber hits the road, the friends from childhood start to peel away, the conversations between them become fewer and fewer and far between.

1:46:37I expected this in my life. And then you came along. You have been my biggest fan and not because I tried to make you one, but because you believe in me. I don't care if you're a successful podcaster. I don't care if you have a million subscribers and followers. I care about you. I care about your happiness. Ultimately, I want you to win more than anything. You're my best man, the godfather to my beautiful daughter, Charlie, and you're my best friend. I love you, man. I love you. Love you too, bro.

1:47:13That's it. That's a wrap. Thank you. Wow. What a way to finish. If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom reading list. It is 100 books that you should read before you die. the most interesting, life-changing and impactful books I've ever read with descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And you can get it right now for free by going to chriswillx.com slash books. That's chriswillx.com slash books.