Best Peptides, Stem Cells, Testosterone & Exercise Hacks - Biohacking Roundtable - #1148

24:00So it doesn't just have to be sauna. That's interesting. I've been loving a resonance breathing lamp. So there's this lamp called Ohm, Ohm.Health. And it's got FDA registered heart rate sensor on the top of it. So you can imagine like a big glass lamp and on the top there's a stone and that's got a hundred Hertz sensor. You just hold the stone and the lamp is connected to your Wi-Fi, has the algorithm, and it detects your HRV. You breathe, the stone vibrates, so you're just breathing up and down with the stone. It maximizes your resonance. It gets you into resonance. It's maximizing that arrhythmia between it.

24:33It makes like an ocean sound. Two weeks ago, I got targeted on Instagram. Funny story. Jay Wiles, the HRV expert who developed that lamp i used to have this thing where i didn't want to do a podcast without a sidekick without a podcast host jay was my podcast sidekick for like four years no way yeah he he was he was like the witty banter guy and he's super smart like like whenever anybody would ask a question about hrv like jay would jump in and then he developed this lamp and it actually is cool it's fucking it's absolutely awesome the best thing about it is you can grab it and use it while you're watching tv so let's say that you're lying in bed or you're on the couch or whatever if you've got a lamp nearby You can just be watching the movie and you can crank out 45-minute resonance breathwork sessions without even thinking about it.

25:21Because you don't need the light to you, just the vibratory. Just vibrating. It doesn't interrupt anything. If you've got it next to your bed and you can't sleep on a nighttime, you can roll over and grab it. It doesn't interrupt whoever you're in bed with.

25:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So what is that? Is it the vibration that changes it or is it the breath? The idea behind resonance breathing, and it's actually kind of fascinating that nearly every human being on the planet with a breath rate of around five and a half seconds in, five and a half seconds out, achieves peak HRV. So that's about where you see really good vagal tone is at that breath rate. And this lamp is essentially in a trainment tool to either via visual cues or via vibratory cues, if you're using the stone, to cause you to breathe at that rate. There's a book called Coherence. And in the latter pages of that book, it was one of the first books I ever read on resonance breathing, there's like a link or a QR code to a downloadable MP3 file called the clock and bell.

26:18And that was when I first discovered the power of resonance breathing, because it's literally like tick tock, tick tock, ding, tick tock, and you play it while you're working or while you're checking emails, while you're doing whatever would normally be stressful. It keeps you from email apnea because you know that you're, you're doing resonance breathing, but it trains you how to like subconsciously resonance breathe, obviously a way, a way, uh, more stripped down solution than what Jay developed. But HomeLab is super cool. It's because of his art. It's trait rather than state. And I think that's what everybody's trying to get themselves over to.

26:50It's like, I want to do this practice, but I don't need to just end at the end of my session. One of the interesting things I talked to Jay about was if you get below 10 minutes, it's just state. If you get between 10 and 20, you start to move it across into trait changes too. I think you only need to do maybe, you know, three or four sessions a week. So an hour a week, something like that. and it's so easy. So that's on my list. It doesn't do fetal heartbeat and womb whooshing sounds though. Which is a shame. Unfortunately. Which is a shame. They got to build that in. Any other cool shit like interventions or supplements or whatever you've been playing?

27:21The other big one that I've seen and I know Ben's experienced it too is the Muse stem cells. It's they, so a scientist, Mari Dazawa out of Japan discovered a subset phenotype of stem cell called Muse and it's fascinating because everything they've been doing outside of the United States with tinkering with stem cells and trying to put them under stress and trying to get them to adapt and change has been in an effort to create a cell that would have a certain phenotype that would be optimal for healing, recovery, and treating an array of different chronic diseases, but that would not become tumorigenic, right?

27:58So one of the challenges of a cell that can differentiate, meaning it can become anything, is that cell could, in theory, hypothetically become a cancer cell? Or what if it came into contact with a cancer cell and took on a cancer phenotype and then exasperated that? And now we put trillions of these cells in your body. And so fascinating. It's a turbocharger answer. 2014, this is another woman, one of the leading scientists in stem cell research. 2014, she discovered this cell. It is a, MU stands for multi-lineage stress enduring, which basically means traditional stem cells, you have to cryo-freeze negative 80 degrees or more.

28:36And the second you thaw them out, they begin to die. And so you've got to get them into the body quickly. These mu cells can stay alive for days at room temperature. Less than 2 % of stem cells are mu, but they're the super soldiers. They've got little mu carcass. So in all this research is now coming together. Like this scientist, Dominic Deutcher out of Germany, was a professor at Stanford, and he couldn't understand why diabetic patients didn't seem to be responding in certain ways like other patients. Now that he realized in his study, even though they had stem cells, they were missing this other tagged cell that was some sort of subset.

29:12And what it was was a muse. And so here's why that's important. A muse cell, in layman's terms, can become anything. So like when you're a kindergartner, you could grow up and be a scientist, a doctor, an attorney. Ben Greenfield, some of us. Ben Greenfield, whatever it is, because you haven't set your identity yet. so in america most people who say stem cells don't work they're getting bone marrow aspirate or they're taking cells from fat tissue and the problem with that is that cell's already developed a phenotype and the fraction is very large yes and a lot of it and if they're diabetic or elderly they don't have muse there are no muse it's literally just traditional mscs and so what is so special about these cells is they will take on any phenotype they can pierce the blood brain barrier other traditional cells get caught in the lungs traditional mscs mostly get caught up in the lungs they don't pierce the blood brain barrier traditional mscs have a three percent engraftment rate mu cells have a 30 percent engraftment rate traditional stem cells take multiple days to engraft mu cells are engrafted within 48 hours and high histocompatibility too there's almost no immune system response so they're immunomodulatory well is this the shit that matt cook had me breathe did he have me atomize yes you can nebulize now yeah nebulize he probably had you do that with muse derived exosomes yeah yes yes yes and so we you can literally place it on the fulcrum plate uh internasally and it will pierce the blood-brain barrier and they have this because they did it on stroke victims in japan and their brain is lit up like a christmas tree with these tagged cells and what's crazy is through phagocytosis they'll consume the damaged cell and take on the personality of that cell.

30:52So if you have a damaged neuron, they become a baby neuron that's young and healthy and vibrant. This is proven quantifiably in babies born with encephalitis. They did a study in Japan. If they don't treat those children, almost all of them will be brain damaged in the subset population that was treated in a randomized control trial, which people love. Those children, 90 % of them had totally normal brain function out to two years from one intravenous treatment. from one intravenous treatment. And we actually had a patient who was on a heart transplant list. We were talking about this with Ben yesterday.

31:25Crazy. Patient on a heart transplant list. We treat them intravenous because they couldn't get the heart. By the time they got the heart and they re-ran this patient's information or all their data, the doctor took them off the transplant list. And there is crazy data on heart, brain. You guys are using Dizawa Muse, right? Correct. Because the actual fraction percentage of Muse cells widely varies. And that's who Matt's used to. Mari Dazawa is the woman in Japan who discovered these cells. And so this is the most game changer thing that I have seen. And I don't own into the company. It's not mine.

32:04I wish I did. But it's like the most game changer thing. And we've been using it because, again, Texas has the right to try. And so this is what Brett has seen the most impact with, with his Parkinson's. And I'm not saying it's going to, with Parkinson's, it's like, can we slow? Can we slow things? Can we give your body the best chance? And there are so many different benefits to this, whether it's tendons or joints or orthopedic related injuries, the data is really compelling. when you go back and look at all of the data that this woman has accrued over the last decade. And now it's a culmination of even the scientists in Germany, Dominic Deutcher, who is trying to understand what are these little subset phenotypes?

32:45And now it's all come together where he's like, holy shit, I've wasted 20 years of research. They're actually harvested from a rare breed of cattle in the Middle East. So it's super cool. You're kidding. Difficult to get. You're kidding. He is kidding. It's a callback. This is healthy birth, healthy mother, pre-planned C-section. they take the discarded afterbirth and from that they can extrapolate out these these supercells these super soldier cells basically that's so fucking cold yeah afterbirth super soldiers yeah that's what i mean so those are things that i think will be game changer as they become more readily accepted florida's passed a law that allows accessibility um tennessee just passed a law that i lobbied for and then also i lobbied in arizona we got it through the house and the senate but the governor of Arizona shot it down.

33:28I think Texas is going to pass more accessible laws around this. And then Utah. So you can get it in certain states, and then certain states are regulated. And then obviously it's not an FDA-approved modality for anything. So any use of these cells would be off-label. There is no label. You know what you were talking about putting stuff here? I was thinking about clear spray, X-L-E-A-R. That shit, just available over-the-counter for mark-ons, yeah fucking crazy yeah yeah i can't believe that that thing is just like oh yeah just buy it and for the people that don't know i'm talking can you explain what it is it's a nasal spray about about the xylitol infused nasal spray yeah yeah um i've only ever really used it after swimming in fresh water like i discovered it way back in the triathlon days where you get out of a river or lake or any fresh body and just typically like about three or four a.m that night after you you'd laid down and stuff connects in the nasal passages and you get the histaminergic response, you start sneezing and you start sniffling and you spray this stuff and you get vasodilation and it seems to just like knock down the histamine reaction, but it's just an OTC.

34:34Yeah. Yeah. Over the counter clear spray. But if you do a course, typically for about two or three months, that's enough to knock out Markons. That is a... Right. Which normally you'd get a pretty expensive and difficult to get It's a vasoactive intestinal polypeptide, like nasal spray for VIP peptide. The VIP peptide, yeah. But you can do that and then maybe some silver spray and you can get rid of something that's literally living in your fucking nasal cavity. Like you got shit that's living inside of your nose. These like, what they're like microbe organisms. Yes. And yeah, there's clear spray, which is just X-L-E-A-R.

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36:14are heading to timeline.com slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's timeline.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. So why are GLPs a concern for sarcopenia and are you more worried about sarcopenia than osteoporosis?

36:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I'm worried about both and that is a great question. We've never had the ability to lose this much weight this fast outside of bariatric surgery. We are at the intersection of something that we've never seen before, which is very unusual in medicine, to be at a place that we've never been. We now have the capacity to reduce weight magnitudes of weight that we've never had before, which means if in fact these drugs are utilized, which I think the number is, they're expecting somewhere along between 40 to 60 million people on these medications. It's like 20 % of Americans. Yeah, plus all the people who are just like using gray market stuff and not even telling anybody unreported.

37:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Hopefully things are going to evolve there. But what is going to happen is if obesity has been our focus, which it has been for the last 50 years, we haven't gotten very far. All of a sudden GLP-1s are now available. Obesity will become less of a problem. But the fact that people are sedentary, sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass and strength is going to become a primary problem, which then we know how bone is formed. And by the way, osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Can you explain for the idiot in the room, please?

37:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait. Idiots in the room. Meaning what you do when you are younger to protect bone and muscle plays a role in the outcome. Okay, so yeah, so she was saying it's like predictive of your osteoporotic status late in life, what you are at early in life. So women athletes that lose their menstrual cycle are very underweight. People that have struggled with anorexia end up having very low bone mineral density and then are at risk for osteoporosis. It's kind of strange to hear three people in a room who are quite forward-thinking, quite experimental, open to new evidence, being skeptical about GLPs.

38:29I understand obesity was a problem for a long time. We've got this intervention which appears to fix the obesity thing. And now there's all of these potential side effects that we don't understand. In fact, they're not even side effects. They're more like second order consequences. That's probably a better way to look at them, right? Rather than side effects. What else, how do you guys feel about the potential for millions, tens of millions of people to be taking GLPs over the next decade or so? I think one of the big challenges, and this is what you just touched on is in traditional medicine, it's an insurance model.

39:00And this is my forte. And the challenge with that traditional model is you are based off an indication and that indication is based off a specific dosage. And so these trials were based off chronically sick, morbidly obese people, right? This was originally going to be a diabetes medication. And so all of the initial data - Which is where the lion's share of human clinical data comes from, is disease population. And so then the problem is you take that and you roll it out to the general population. With a 33 BMI. And now every housewife in Malibu is using it to lose 10 pounds for vacation.

39:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Guess what else it does? And this is not really talked about. It has different sexual side effects if you are a man or a woman. Is that like the anhedonia thing where it reduces pleasure? Yes. But it's more pronounced in one sex? Yes. Which one? So in women. Oh, really? And the data is still emerging because we haven't been using it. Are you ready? So for men, it can increase testosterone, it can decrease body fat, decrease estrogen, and it can increase sex drive. But what we're starting to see for women is that it can, again, decrease body fat, but it also seems to decrease sex drive. So just give them some PT-141 nasal spray and we're back off to the races, right?

40:22Or we study women more. Yeah.

40:24Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Or we study women more. And perhaps we get, to your point, specialized dosing. Because the problem is in that model, I literally right before we walked in here got a text from somebody who said, my wife's trisepatide is no longer covered by insurance. And they're trying to move her to a dosage that would be covered. Okay. You're going to move her up to a higher dosage to get insurance to cover. Oh, it's a higher dose that's covered. Even though she was getting the efficacy out of the lower dose. Right. And that's because insurance companies, I've broke this down on your podcast too before. It's a big challenge because 30 % of the revenue of an insurance company comes from monetizing drugs.

41:01So they are changing dosages based off rebates and what rebate pays them the most. And so you may be on an efficacious dosage that's working great for you, but they may go, yeah, we're not covering that one anymore. You've got to bump up. Yeah, which is super interesting because it's an efficacious dose. I mean, we were just talking about 0.25, which is a micro dose that suppresses food noise that for a lot of people is enough, nowhere near enough to get covered by insurance. But then these larger doses is where you see the issue back to sarcopenia, where you're told you're supposed to go to the gym and lift weights.

41:33And the only way for you to do that without feeling flat is to eat a good meal. But you sit in front of your favorite smoothie or pre-workout or whatever, and you get nauseous trying it. So then you're flat in the gym. and so this is like the whole grey man hypothesis where the road that we're going down is getting really smart getting big like AI potentially like you know hardware infused brains while our body wastes away into little stick figures and the grey men are us from the future on GLP-1s and AI Thank goodness we have testosterone Is the dosage, is it a pre-click pen? Is that why people can't?

42:10Because when I think oh this is the dosage I just think about a vial and an insulin syringe and you go well i'll just draw more or less so the companies are launching those other dosages to give more mobility to patients and options so the commercially available uh companies the manufacturers are compounders have been doing that for the last five years um but that still goes back to it's going to be based off what was in the clinical trials and what dosage were showed to be efficacious in those trials which is again an obese patient population. And if you want insurance to cover it, insurance is going to do it following the literature.

42:44Oh, that's so interesting.

42:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And so now we're in a space where we don't really understand a no microdosing. We do know that GLP-1s affect muscle positively, despite what you're seeing in the literature, which is it reduces muscle mass. The majority of the fat, the majority of the mass lost is fat. But why I think, I actually think that GLP-1s are really good is it has the potential to improve muscle quality. Imagine - By reducing intramuscular triglycerides? Yes. Imagine you have a Wagyu steak. You go on a GLP-1, you inject it, your Wagyu steak becomes like a filet. So the texture and the composition can improve with GLP-1.

43:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So we need it. I believe that we need it because we have not been effective before. And again, I don't think body fat is the major problem. I think it's intramuscular fat. That is true that a lot of the studies on, I think it was primarily redditrutide that showed muscle loss were done via DEXA evaluations, which couldn't differentiate between lean mass loss coming from muscle or lean mass loss coming from something like intrahepatic tissue, intramuscular triglycerides, or other things that would actually be a positive benefit when it comes to loss. But if you're not eating enough food, the muscle loss thing is still a pretty big risk.

44:04To try and recap while we're out here, because that's fucking mind-blowing, the studies that have been done are mostly on morbidly obese people. Because they're morbidly obese, they're given quite high dosages. When it comes to the prescriber-approved dosages that people can take, because they need to follow the science, that means that even people who are looking to lose a little bit of weight and might be able to get efficacious effects from micro dosing they need to be given the big boy dosages because they're the only ones that currently have been studied in the literature is that right it's attempt to try and land the ship and thread the needle and get insurance coverage and then the initial insulant part of where the research is the initial prescriptions for the first few years were pre-loaded syringes yes right and so you couldn't have the autonomy to shift and so when we were seeing muscle wasting it's like yeah because a lot of these people are taking way higher dosages than they should have been taking and their doctor's just trying to give them a solution and then no saving their weight when they don't need to they could get away with 0.25 or 0.5 what gabriel was saying is like like the muscle loss is not necessarily a direct mechanistic cause of the glp itself and some of the actual loss from that might be favorable it's the loss that occurs from simply not being able to get into the gym and or eat adequate protein

45:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:because you've got such low energy because you're not eating and low food volume yeah okay yeah What's the mechanism for the sex drive in women? Dopamine. Dopamine brain reward pathways. Because the pathways are very similar. And they're looking at GLP-1 for alcohol addiction and drug addiction. Right. Anything that's hedonic. Anything that's hedonic. It's not solely just related to body fat and appetite. It has brain effects. It's not only found in the gut and slowing, like making you feel full and slowing gastric emptying. It's also you have GLP-1 in the brain, and so it impacts your dopamine response.

45:57Desire, generally. I brought this up. Zombie mode. I brought this up with Rogan. It was like what happens when our entire economy is driven on consumerism and you pharmacologically suppress desire, right? Like most people are buying shit, not things that they need, just things that they want. And it's sort of repeat habituation. I'm just going to satisfy, satiate myself. And yeah, maybe it's sex. Maybe it's video games. Maybe it's porn. Maybe it's social media. maybe it's weed. So you're going down the GLP to GDP.

46:24Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Wait, but here's what we're saying. Very nice. Well, I totally missed that, but I'm like the mom in the room. But what's happening is that, so I see patients in my clinic, right? Strong medical. People are getting a little depressed. They don't get the same enjoyment from sex, from eating, or from spending. People on GLPs get depressed. And now I want to be really clear. I'm not anti-GLP1s. I mean, we prescribe them. But it's the idea that kind of what Brigham was saying is that we understand the utilization in trials with sick people with type 2 diabetes. We don't really know all of the other secondary outcomes that this can cause.

47:04Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And again, part of them are positive, but decreased sex drive, fun, mood, all of those things, those are a problem. I remember looking at— It's a great aid for stoicism. I looked at some research around bariatric surgery outcomes, and there's an increase in suicide risk after bariatric surgery. But it's not just because it's highly traumatic and sometimes there's infections and sometimes idiot surgeons close you up with gores still inside of you and things can go wrong. It's that typically people who are sufficiently overweight that they use bariatric surgery are eating to deal with something that's happening in their life.

47:41they've now had that pathway of reward and sedation taken away from them, but the problem still exists. So now what you're talking about here is, hey, you're using GLPs to help yourself lose weight. The weight loss has been curtailed, but the reason that you overate still exists. And the same thing goes for all of the video games. If you were to go to Dr. Lyon's practice, I guarantee you, you're doing a full workup, you're assessing the blood work, and you're looking at the patient holistically.

48:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Of course. If you go into a primary care practice in an insurance model, they have six minutes with a patient on average. They want to put a win on the board for that patient. That patient's asking for a GLP-1. That patient probably is pre-diabetic or diabetic. That patient probably does have weight to lose. But what is the root cause of this illness? And these are the symptoms, not the root cause. And then they prescribe the GLP-1 without ever saying, do they have a hormonal inadequacy? Do they have a family history of mental health issues, depression, anxiety? You're doing all that. You have the ability in a cash model.

48:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And you bring up another really good point that say someone needs to lose weight. Again, we have to recognize we have been very unsuccessful. Now we have a tool that makes us successful. However, let me pose it to you this way. If you, Brigham, had low thyroid and you were hypothyroid, well, you might try to get to the root cause, but let's just say you have low thyroid and I give you thyroid replacement to normalize your levels. you wouldn't think twice right i'm going somewhere with this yes if you had trouble seeing let's say your eyes got older if i gave you glasses that wouldn't be an issue now it would affect my sex appeal a little bit i would push back i would ask for contacts fine but wait i'm going somewhere with this but if someone comes into your point with say low testosterone as a woman or a man they are now juicing.

49:33Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:They are now on steroids. So this is a problem. Not that your testosterone is low. I'm going to give you testosterone to bring you up to a normal level. We're not talking about optimization. We're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about someone's using a GLP-1 now has low testosterone, man or woman. And the thing, the balance, let's say they They have low sex hormones because of the industry stigma in general. Yeah. Everyone at this table is very interested in health. But for the average person, if you go, hey, I'm on testosterone, they're like, oh my gosh, you're juicing, you're on steroids.

50:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Right. Because there is a stigma in primary care too with testosterone. So real world example, and he covered this on Joe, is Jelly Roll. We've helped him lose 250 pounds. Everyone immediately assumes we put him on a GLP-1. No, we ran his blood work. He had low testosterone. He was chronically inflamed. He had all sorts of other biometric issues unrelated to discipline. And all we did was fix those root causes. He never took a GLP-1. And to this day, everyone's like, and I sell GLP-1s, I would tell you if he took it. It'd be great to see GLPs if you needed it. The guy did it with blood, sweat, and tears, diet, lifestyle, nutrition, intestinal, optimized hormones, yes.

50:54But in general medicine, they view it as testosterone is the boogie. Yeah, it's a misunderstanding between hypogonadism and super physiological dosing of testosterone and not understanding the sweet spot in between. And I still, you know, like I was watching Pete Hesgaard's recent video about putting warfighters on testosterone. He wasn't putting warfighters on testosterone, screening. Or yeah, screening for that. I still like to see that conversation couched in the discussion of like lift weights with your legs where there's a high concentration of androgen receptors and cover the bases like creatine and zinc and boron and omegas and magnesium and some of the upstream precursors, you know, look into sleep, look into recovery and then make the decision.

51:36So I know you guys aren't saying just like throw testosterone really nilly. You did blood work with jelly roll. I think the problem is like it is massive the number of people who are hypogonadal, the number of men in particular hypogonadal. I don't think that testosterone replacement therapy is the first solution. but sometimes it is the most effective solution, especially in a scenario where you're unable, like in a warfighter, to live the optimal lifestyle.

52:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:This is very important. Very important conversation. What you are saying is absolutely correct. We are seeing a decrease in testosterone year after year. Obesity goes up, behaviors go down, people are eating, not sleeping, all sorts of things. There is a medical risk when someone has low testosterone. for heart disease, for osteoporosis, cognition, depression. So if I had one dream in this room of strong men and powerful men, we would clear up the idea of a testosterone revolution. And we would clear up this idea that testosterone is steroids. And somehow I can give medication to make someone have less fat.

52:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But if I give medication to someone to have them build muscle, it's a problem. If you and your partner sleep best at different temperatures it is time that you joined us in the modern world and got an 8sleep. I've always wanted to try 8sleep. Which side of the bed do you prefer? I usually take left but I am flexible. You're not sleeping in my bed, mate. Oh, when you said partner I just assumed. I meant a romantic partner, you know? Of course. 8sleep's pod 5 is a smart mattress cover that actively cools or heats each side of the bed by up to 20 degrees so if you run hot and your partner runs cold you're both happy.

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54:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So in the 30s, people used testosterone. It was discovered in the 30s as a medical intervention. And there was one study that came out by Huggins, and it showed that testosterone caused prostate cancer. So in the 30s, people were using it as a medical intervention. There wasn't a stigma associated with it. At the same time, people were interested. We're seeing an increase in sport performance, right? Because we do know that testosterone increases muscle mass. Combined testosterone training, you get better outcomes. And motivation for forward motion. All of these things. For decades, people would castrate men because they were worried that it was going to make or start prostate cancer and treat prostate cancer.

55:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The study was wrong. Yeah, there were only three patients in the study. I can't believe you know this. So there were three patients in this study. So they castrated men. They didn't put anyone - You mean we didn't give men testosterone? No. They suppressed androgens. No, they actually tied rubber bands around their balls. Yeah. There were three patients. They don't really do that. Because this Huggins study said, if you've got too much testosterone, you might get prostate cancer, therefore we'll cut your balls off. Or if you have prostate cancer, we need to castrate you. It was kind of hard to survive with balls.

55:32Yeah, and it was wrong. But it was wrong. It was all dogma that then got adopted by the medical establishment.

55:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It was wrong. Can you imagine? Like, whoops. And this was debunked by Dr. Morgan Tyler, a prominent urologist in the 90s. How did it take 60 years? I know. This is the problem. It took 60 years. And now we're seeing the opposite. Yeah. Testosterone doesn't cause these things. Testosterone, there is a risk for having low testosterone. Testosterone doesn't cause prostate cancer. Testosterone doesn't make cardiovascular disease worse. There is all of these myths, which is really important, but we got it wrong. Some of them are true though, hair loss. If you think about what Dr. Morgan Tyler uncovered is it comes down to saturation level.

56:15So think of receptor sites. You can only water a plant so much. So if a plant gets no water, it dies. If a plant gets too much water, it dies. Receptor sites are the same way. You can only water that plant so much. So as men had no testosterone, chemically castrated, their risk of prostate cancer was statistically less because you have no testosterone. But you have a higher risk of every other form of cancer. You have a higher risk of metabolic disease, diabetes. Most of the risks. Losing bone mass. Of testosterone are not what we thought they were. And they're a little like, you know, excess aromatization and conversion to estrogen if it's improperly managed.

56:52so you can get emotional issues or gynecomastia or increased conversion of DHT, which can cause male pattern baldness. But these are not like life or death issues. And most of those issues occur when you push past physiologic ends.

57:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And there's a difference between enhancement and replacement of something the body already makes. And for the military operators, so I had Tim Parlatore, who is the attorney who submitted the memo on the podcast that we haven't released it yet. And the idea is that if you have low testosterone, you are at a disadvantage. If we send guys to war, we're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about guys that are symptomatic with hypogonadism, with low levels of testosterone. If we don't even screen, right now they're not even screening. If we don't screen, we are sending to war guys with a massive disadvantage.

57:50Right, suboptimal. suboptimal. Dude, I want every single soldier to have 2 ,000 nanograms per deciliter of testosterone. No, you don't. Yes, I fucking do. Yes, I fucking do. Remember, we don't want too emotional. Hulking monsters who can't control their raid. That's what I want. Bald, rage-infused monsters. Yeah, exactly. Just fucking stick skin off. No hair. Grimaceans everywhere. Well, we don't want any of that.

58:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Listen, we... Just fucking each other. Tiny balls. Just fucking everywhere. This is going so sideways. Listen, Listen, as a military family, as a Navy family - With high testosterone. Yes, my husband, yes, has high testosterone. We would never want those war fighters going in. And you know, I want to say something else is that people are saying, well, what about the women? Well, considering only about 10 people have read the memo, women will also be screened. They're also complicated. It is more complicated. But if we can get screening done initially to protect our soldiers, then we have a way to do something about it.

58:47Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We can fix and identify and acknowledge that there's a problem. But the fact that it is so controversial, the fact that it has gotten people so upset is outrageous. But you do see a political camp. This is an agenda. I'm sorry to get conspiratorial, but I've watched it and I've been behind the scenes and I've been all the way to D.C. And I've sat at the FDA. I've testified at the FDA. I have watched this play out. The same thing that happened with men and testosterone happened with women and women's hormones with the Women's Health Initiative. and I was a drug rep when they released that study and the first thing the company did was hand me osteoporosis drugs and all of a sudden all of us were carrying osteoporosis drugs and our job was to go into doctors and scare the hell out of them about you should never put a woman on estrogen again.

59:33You need to put them on an osteoporosis drug to preserve their bone mineral density but guess what? That osteoporosis drug exasperated hot flashes which is another issue. Now they need a hot flash drug So you're selling them four drugs to fix what one natural hormone would have fixed that was there since the dawn of time. But the whole study was flawed to begin with. And that all got debunked. But it took 20-something years to bring estrogen back to women. I don't know how much the cultural conversation and the pushback around testosterone is to do with people understanding a study of three people from 1930.

1:00:08I think it's much more cultural than that. I think it's much more of a what does testosterone represent generally. I think that and also the same type of treatment that GLP-1 is given in terms of perception of taking a shortcut. Testosterone is often perceived the same way. You're not going to go lift weights and you're not going to pay attention to lifestyle factors and you're just going to throw a band-aid on it. But no one cares if someone's taking GLP-1. No one's accusing somebody that lost a ton of weight on GLPs of being non-natty. Right. Right. But if you ever do a six-week course of fucking enanthate, that means for the rest of your time, your nanny status is gone.

1:00:46So what is it? Why that? What's the difference? And I think this is a good split test, right? You have two drugs, delivery mechanisms not too dissimilar, one's IM, one's sub-Q. Both can be sub-Q, actually. Testosterone. So you can use them in similar ways. They achieve similar things, like a leaner, a more built physique. Why is it that testosterone's got this? Is it the sort of masculinized side of this? Is it aggression? Is it? What do you think? I think it's the performance enhancing benefits in sports. And that's created a dogma around everybody. Evidently.

1:01:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But like take sports out. I think it goes beyond sports though. I mean, there is simply a perception. I think that if someone is on testosterone, they are taking a little bit of a shortcut when it comes to muscle mass recovery. But if they're low, are they taking a shortcut if they're hypogonadal they're not taking a shortcut they're addressing a deficiency but there's still the perception that you're not doing the work um and i think that feeds into i think i think some of it is the unfairness potentially of the sports performance angle as well what happened to the end of the hands do you not think that the indication is wrong today like the clinically low too i have to be very careful about this you are way too well read.

1:02:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So basically what he's saying is our indication of 300 nanograms per deciliter, it's in different countries, depending on where you live in Italy, it might be 350. That will determine what your definition of hypogonis is. So the lower range of normal from a normal adult male in the US at the moment is 300 nanograms per deciliter. And that's too low. In my opinion. What's the upper bound? You think that the lower range should be raised? I think that, again, I want to couch this very carefully as a practicing physician. This is not medical advice. This is a fucking biohacking table. But listen, so I'm going to give you the answer.

1:02:37Just pass it to me under the table and I can say it. I'm not a doctor. Okay. So what I'm saying is that it's not just the number.

1:02:44Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So there is other things that go into effect. For example, and I figured this out. I had a guy who was from Homeland Security and his testosterone was 600. and he had all the signs and symptoms of low T. And I'm like, brother, I'm not putting you on tests. Just get more sleep. You're going to be great. And it turns out he had a CAG repeat, a CAG repeat. So the testosterone that he had wasn't effective because he had issues with the receptors. We all have different receptors. A testosterone of 900 for you might equal a testosterone of 300 for Brigham. Right. And then the CAG repeat is not a SHBG free available testosterone.

1:03:23It's an actual receptor issue. Whether or not it's getting converted into free, it's still not interacting with the receptor.

1:03:29Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And we don't test those routinely. It's primarily done in research. We're still gathering the data as what the impact is. But the idea that, number one, that testosterone is going to cause harm in physiologic ranges. So if someone is 300 or 500 but feel like crap and it looks like they need testosterone, but they don't measure low. You know, in the medical world, we are, according to guidelines, not supposed to essentially treat that. That's where I was going to say, a lot of that is insurance-based too. And we go back to this whole conundrum of like, you can practice a sick care model and it's a challenge because every personalized medicine is exactly that.

1:04:08It should be personalized. Each individual is different and their physiological response is different. But insurance will cover$299 but not$301. Does TRT create the same problem that Ozempic does, like people are pharmacologically solving a problem that lifestyle should have partially fixed? I don't think so. Is it an artificial solution to an artificial problem? I think some people are. Absolutely. I mean, that goes back to what I was saying earlier about lifting weights and micronutrient replenishment and relationships and sunlight and de-stressing recovery and sleep. If you have all of those parameters in place, which a lot of people nowadays do, I think there can still be anything from environmental factors that influence testosterone availability.

1:04:49This is the endocrine disruptor discussion, the plastic discussion, personal care products and foods wrapped in plastic, which I think can affect that. There is the industrial pollution, air pollution, even light pollution having an effect on the stress and sleep component. I think we have a bigger uphill battle, including the fact that not a lot of guys are chopping wood and building fences and hauling rocks outdoors. And so I think it's a cluster of factors that influence a modern lifestyle, putting you at a higher risk for hypogonad. We definitely have higher levels of low T than we ever have as a society.

1:05:27But then you also look like my good friend Callie Means breaks down the whole food system and ultra processed foods. and when did we see that spike? The big changes started happening in the 80s and we can go back to like the infancy of how that occurred. As soon as the government began to regulate big tobacco, big tobacco, JP Philip Morris or whatever, went out and started acquiring most of the major food production companies. And most of those major food production companies pivoted from healthy foods, more hearty meals to ultra processed foods. Ultra processed foods have a 30 plus percent profit margin.

1:06:01A banana has like an 8 % to 10 % profit margin. So it's our food systems. It's our glyphosate rules and regulations around our crops. All of those things are controlled in much bigger dynamics. All I hear right now is that cigarette companies have made us less yoked. That's the story.

1:06:17Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But here's the problem. Let's say you take the warfighter. Everything that we named here is a luxury. The idea that you can sun your perineum and that you can go to bed early and you can sleep in and you can reduce light pollution, these are all luxuries that a warfighter, a new mom are not going to have. And so if we restrict the ability to treat based on allowing them to solve for lifestyle factors first, there is enough evidence to support that low testosterone contributes to disease risk that I wouldn't wait. Why would I wait? You don't have the degrees of freedom within your lifestyle for certain people that have got constraints on their sleep, constraints on their ability to eat, et cetera.

1:07:07Yeah. I guess, Ben, you experimented a lot, obviously, every performance intervention under the sun. Where does testosterone rank for you compared with sleep or resistance training or light or diet, stress, stuff like that? How important is - In my defense, I actually have not sun my perineum. Recently? Yeah. Since I've been in Austin. I haven't had the opportunity. I think it depends primarily on age. So I've been on testosterone for four years. I began when I was 40. The main thing I noticed was being able to recover a lot faster, being able to hit the gym for what I do in the morning that keeps me sane, keeps me active, and keeps me productive, and keeps my head clear.

1:07:52I can continue to do that day after day, whereas I was noting a significant increase in the amount of time that I needed for recovery between workouts just based on HRV, based on soreness. So I would rank it higher and higher in order of priority the older a man gets. I know we're talking about men, but obviously women are part of this discussion as well.

1:08:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Which they haven't really been studied nearly as well. And I would say somewhere in the range of 35 to 40 years old and most men, Gabriel probably has the actual demographic data somewhere tucked away in a giant book. It becomes pretty important. So I would say for me as I age, increasingly important. One other thing that we should mention, of course, is the fertility discussion, right? The younger you are, and this is the problem with the old looks-maxing community of dudes totally screwing themselves over from a legacy and childhood standpoint when they're 16 years old. We do need to bear in mind that a 30-year-old who may be hypogonadal and may still face some of this uphill battle in terms of a post-industrial lifestyle or a modern lifestyle, keeping them that way and not being able to do things besides testosterone replacement therapy needs to know there's an impact on fertility and the practitioner needs to be aware of methods to maintain sperm quality.

1:09:08I froze my sperm last year just in case I ever wanted to get on TRT at some point. I'm not on it. And I was like, I just feel like it's probably a good insurance policy and it is so cheap. You want to talk about some fucking patriarchy. One of the places that it definitely exists is how cheap it is for guys to freeze their sperm compared with women to freeze their sperm. Well, it's probably less expensive because you're using Mike's Butcher Shop down the street for the hand freezer. But it's a great solution.

1:09:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And also, just because someone goes on testosterone, like you had mentioned, there are interventions like HCG. You have to work with a provider that knows. It doesn't mean you're going to be infertile. 10 % of men just at baseline have low fertility. 2 % of men have no So if a guy is hypogonadal and he's younger, he should still be treated. You should bank his sperm. You should give him the appropriate discussion, give him some HCG. But you wouldn't want to withhold a medical treatment. I just think it's a mistake. And if we don't de-stigmatize the idea that somehow testosterone is going to ruin the world and make them bald and angry.

1:10:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:up in a moral panic. I'm kind of fascinated by, I've never thought about it before, but the equivalency of GLPs on one side and testosterone on the other. Morally, there shouldn't really be much difference between the two. One is helping you eat less and one is helping you build more muscle and your hormonal profile to improve. I get the sense that a good bit of it is that one side is quite male coded and one is to do with aggression and sort of dominance and pursuit and forward motion. And another is a somewhat more female coded, which is that it's helping you to lose weight. Maybe it'll be a little bit more slender.

1:10:49And this looks like health. And the other one looks more like luxury, perhaps, or unnecessary enhancement. Yeah, everybody knows a fat person that loses weight. It's like, you didn't need that. So you can see it visually. You can't see someone's low testosterone in the same way. So I wonder, that's a really fucking interesting -

1:11:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But what happens when a woman goes on a GLP-1 and her testosterone is low, she tells her sister, I have low testosterone. I'm going to start testosterone. She's like, oh, my God, you're going to start steroids? And then she's ashamed. But so we know that a person will go on typically a GLP-1 for two years and come off. Now, essentially, there's a weight cycling. So it becomes a skinny fat situation, and they've lost now lean tissue, and they put on fat. And let's say in a profile of a decreasing milieu, her estrogen goes down, her testosterone goes down, all her hormones go down. But then because of the stigma, she's ridiculed or shamed because now she's on steroids.

1:11:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And so in a moment where we have the ability to shift her life and her trajectory, She doesn't take it because of all the noise that she's now juicing. And that's a problem. I didn't even realize the stigma was that significant for women. It is. And testosterone for a man is the number one biomarker. There is no other biomarker that reflects the risk of type 2 diabetes, that reflects the risk of potential depression, lipid profile. And when you say biomarkers, I like the whole hormone panel. Out of all of them. Total T, free T, everything? Yeah. Well, I mean, so I would say total testosterone because, again, it's really free tea, which is a really good point.

1:12:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But if I had to pick one biomarker, it would be testosterone. So let's say if we take that back to soldiers and we don't routinely screen them, that one biomarker will give us more information into their future than any other biomarker. I want to know what's happening with peptide access right now because you were part of this big hearing that recently happened. If you're going to spend an hour in the gym, you might as well look hot and feel comfortable while you're doing it. And honestly, who wants to be in the background of a TikTok is highlight reel dressed like a chump. Gymshark makes some of the best men's and women's training gear on the planet.

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1:13:45That's jim.sh slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom 10 at checkout. What happened inside of the FDA peptide earring? What's going on? No, thank you. That's a good question. So I've been trying to ring the bell on this since it started. During the Biden administration, the FDA kind of in a vacuum blindsided the public by putting peptides on the naughty list and said these 17 peptides are now considered dangerous to compound, meaning overnight the regulatory landscape shifted. And so compounding pharmacies like mine legally could not make a safe product that had been in the market, oftentimes for more than five, six years.

1:14:23And with no heads up, like we weren't seeing adverse safety data, nothing. One of the ways that I've tried to prove this is I submitted multiple FOIA requests to the FDA over the last three years, and they had not responded to a single FOIA request. So when Secretary Kennedy was put into this position and was given the opportunity to try and drive change. This was one of the first things I discussed with him was, hey, we've submitted these FOIA requests. We haven't gotten answers. Industry's just asking for guidance. We're not making this, but you created a gray and black market overnight. And so just two weeks ago, they federally indicted a gray market peptide manufacturer out of Florida who was buying all of his API from China that was tainted with testosterone.

1:15:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And so women were injecting Oh, they're so sick. They're injecting. And the API is the... Pharmaceutical ingredients. Yeah, so the pharmaceutical ingredients. So it's the base product that you use to compound the medication. So that being said, after a lot of lobbying, begging, pleading, and flights to DC, and thank God for guys like Joe. I'll say, you know, Rogan's been a voice on this and ringing the bell that, hey, why are we banning peptides? Why are we forcing people to gray and black market? We had a hearing. So, and that's a crazy story in itself. We could write a book on it. Literally, they had the group built out.

1:15:41We submitted over 800 studies, 5 ,000 pages of documents. We did a retrospective analysis of 16 million patients that were on BPC-157. Out of that, we found three adverse events. Three adverse events. Yeah. Somebody sent that paper by the hundreds of thousands of uses of multiple peptides, including BPC, and the number of adverse events was close to zero. Correct. And versus, let's look at, this is one of the largest retrospective analysis ever done of a medication. And so I want to be clear because another famous influencer clinician just took to the internet and tried to debunk this hearing.

1:16:21The hearing wasn't about efficacy. This is a confusion for people. It's all about safety because what people fail to realize, again, going back to the process and the legal structure, if you file for a new drug indication, what I am asking you for is to give me Medicare, Medicaid, TRICARE dollars. I'm asking you to force employers to cover a treatment for an employee because 90 % of Americans get their coverage through employers. And so that's the reason insurance plans go up every year because they're monetizing all this stuff. And so this is not that world. This is a cash pay product for a patient using their hard earned money to decide under the supervision of a clinician to fulfill this prescription through a board-certified pharmacy that is inspected by both the state and federal government.

1:17:07And we had a safe pathway. And that pathway was removed in a vacuum with no evidence. And then we went and argued with evidence, submitted over 5 ,000 pages of studies. And the FDA in this environment gave these clinicians literally like a week to review everything. So these doctors, these poor doctors are trying to crammed for the test before they come in here. And we had submitted it a month in advance. And then the FDA releases a statement to the public with a black market peptide API data set saying we are going to stand against this most likely, even if these clinicians vote yes. And by the way, here's a certificate of analysis from a compounding pharmacy.

1:17:50It wasn't a compounding pharmacy. It was a fucking black market manufacturer that had already been shut down. Why? So it was very misleading. That's a difficult question to ask. I don't, again, when we sat in there, the clinicians began to get so frustrated that at one point, one of the FDA individuals said, hey, look, I just want to be clear. We're not intentionally hiding or misrepresenting data. And the clinician was basically saying, well, yeah, it really feels like that. Like, it doesn't feel like you were giving us a shot at this. They ended up overturning six out of the seven peptides. And what was disappointing though, is the FDA all voted straight line one way.

1:18:26The clinicians that use these products and are actually clinicians, end users in the medical space, all voted straight line yes. And it was like clear which pathways they were on.

1:18:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And this is a really good point because maybe you can clear this up is that physicians, practicing physicians will say, well, why are there no randomized control trials? Why is this data mechanistic data? Why rodent models, animal models, if you can prove it mechanistically, then we should be able to see it in some type of randomized control trial. And I think that as we know - Yeah, that's great. So actually on BPC, we submitted, I think, four or six human studies. I can't remember. I don't want to tell. Let's say four to be safe. At least four human studies. Now, the issue with a peptide is you cannot patent something that is readily available in nature.

1:19:12That's patent law in the United States. So look at what's going on with the GLP-1s. A 503A patient-specific pharmacy can compound a GLP-1 weight loss drug. It is infuriating the big pharmaceutical cartels because they're like, wait a second, we spent billions of dollars to make these drugs. And so a lot of the pressure on peptides as a class has come because big pharma is monetizing these at a new level. And so in one breath, you've got these big pharmaceutical companies telling the FDA, these are dangerous, these are this these are that in the next breath eli lily goes and spends seven billion dollars to acquire a peptide manufacturer out of china merc is attempting to patent over 200 potential future cutting peptides but a lot of the physicians who are or were prescribing peptides they they have a pathway via an irb to be able to start to gather data right to actually show what's actually working in applications.

1:20:08But again, IND, and this is the general gist of the FDA stance from what I can gather being at this, I testified and gave my two cents on what I think and where we are and how we got here. But the general rebuttal of the FDA as a stance is, well, we have an IND process. So go get a new drug indication. And my rebuttal is apothecary precedes big pharma. The founder of Pfizer was a compounder. Compounding has been in existence for over 100 years. In 1997, Congress passed a bill to protect compounders that said we are going to allow the patients and clinicians to prescribe unique medications to a patient and provide accessibility.

1:20:49And the problem is if we hand the keys to the castle over to industry, and I said this in my speech to the Senate, if Eisenhower, everyone talks about Eisenhower's speech in the military industrial complex. The second half of Eisenhower's speech, he talked about the scientific industrial complex and what would happen if we hand science over to industry and if we allow industry to control our scientific processes and protocols. And that is where we are headed. And that is terrifying because what you will have is everyone getting the same dose GLP-1.

1:21:17Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You're going to have everyone getting the same because this is what we have a double-blind placebo-controlled trial on. And this is where academia drives me mad because when Rogan posted his pictures of plasmapheresis, some dipshit doctor like talks about how it wrecks the immune system. No, this is a 24 hour decrease in your immune response. And he talked about how there's no, this is not, this is pseudoscience. Plasmapheresis does have a double blind placebo controlled randomized trial. And that double blind placebo randomized trial showed that it actually took 18 months off of your biological age on people over the age of 50.

1:21:53But people want to split hairs and decide when they want to use double-blind, placebo-controlled, tri-randomized trials and when they don't.

1:22:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, here's what I've seen in medicine. But what is so relevant here is that there's a need for improved care. And because there's a need, that's why people are reaching for peptides. That's why people are looking for plasmapheresis. Typically, the consumer, the patient will drive forward, say, plasmapheresis for something that is different than, say, myasthenia gravis or something that is an indication. But this is how we start to grow. I mean, before, no one thought mold was a thing. I moved to New York. I got really sick. No one was talking about mold, whatever, 15 years ago. And all my blood work was great.

1:22:41Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And I was living in, you know, stachybotrys. And now environmental testing is more of a thing. But there is the patient and then there's the need that we have to fulfill. And hopefully the science catches up. The idea of randomized control trials, I mean, they're valuable. We still need that for peptides. Maybe not within your sphere, but the general medical community, they need randomized control. My argument is this is about medical accessibility and medical freedom. And if a patient under the supervision of a clinician, under the guidance of the subject matter expert, wants to utilize a compound that is safe, who is the federal government to obstruct a safe pathway and force them to a dangerous pathway.

1:23:25And if people love randomized control trials, I would say, let's look at the products that have hit the market. What happened with Oxycontin? What happened with all of the anti-inflammatories? What happened with antidepressants? In the second largest retrospective study analysis of a drug that went through randomized control trials, what did we see? 25 years later, what we saw as antidepressants don't fucking work. They work for a small subset of the population. They barely differentiate from placebo, yet they increase suicidal ideation, suicidal tendencies, violent thoughts. Most of the school shooters were on antidepressants.

1:24:02We have created a colossal disaster for a product that in its own scale that was developed from a Pfizer consultant does not differentiate barely by one point from placebo. But yet we've spent trillions of dollars on these medications. Public service announcement brought to you by Saffron. Who gets to decide how much risk people should be able to take with their bodies? Should the FDA protect people from making bad medical decisions? Or at what point, basically, how much evidence should be required before adults can access experimental treatment? That's a difficult one. I think it's risk-reward.

1:24:35I say this with everything. Again, peptides are not a silver bullet, right? They're a tool in the tool belt. But for somebody who's a real world example is Brett Favre. He's diagnosed with Parkinson's. This Parkinson's is terminal. It is progressive. The doctors basically say we've got nothing. But there are things that can help that have a shot at helping. And a lot of those trials are in other countries and not accepted here. But there are modalities that he's getting benefits from. And those modalities are being obstructed. And so I believe in a patient's right to choose. And one of the things we're working on here in Texas, Congresswoman Lacey Hull is going to submit a bill in Texas that's going to be called the Right to Try Act.

1:25:22And the Right to Try Act is going to try and provide patients in Texas with medical freedom. And we're trying to do the same thing at the federal level. The belief is through citizens' petitions, if you're a chronically ill patient or you have a terminal disease or you have some sort of catastrophic debilitating issue, why is the government stopping you from using a stem cell product? Why is the government stopping you? This is the end of your runway. Beyond a threshold of severity in terms of your health, you're allowed to throw anything that you want at the wall within a reason. I think you should.

1:25:53That's my personal opinion. But so a lot of that would still be out of pocket though, right? All of it's out of pocket. Yeah, none of this would be covered by insurance. which goes back to the main crux of the issue. Like if somebody wants to spend their cash to sun their, you know, like who are you to tell them? If I want to fly to Thailand for double V's, I can do it. Yeah. I just got to pay for myself. Where people are leaving the country to go get treatments. And it's like, these treatments should be available here. We don't need big brother impacting every decision. And I get like protecting the consumer, but where was that protection with glyphosates?

1:26:26glyphosates. Where was that protection with the antidepressants, with the Oxycontin, with the level of corruption we've seen from our regulatory bodies that are supposed to be here to protect us, right? And those people are swapping spit oftentimes with industry at a level that's nauseating.

1:26:43Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But it's challenging because you might be doing something in a way that is ethical, but if you've got another compounding pharmacy like in Florida where they're putting all this crap and how do we protect the people? I do believe in medical agency that people should have the freedom to do whatever they want. If they want to use a medication because they have five pounds to lose, they should be able to get to choose. We should not as physicians ever dictate what an individual wants to do. There has to be agency. But then the question is, how do we protect the people that don't know and think they're getting one thing?

1:27:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I think we have to assess it as a different model. That's where I keep going with this. There's the insurance model and then there's the cash pay model. And in the cash pay model, we don't need a new drug indication that costs 300 to a billion dollars because it's going to stifle and limit innovation. And that entire model was built around a framework that was built by industry that has a reason to build a moat around accessibility of care because they are monetizing chronic disease at an astronomical level. That's why the average American in the 80s was on one prescription drug and now the average American's on four or more prescription drugs.

1:27:51and everybody's made, but we're the sickest country developed nation in the world. So in a perfect world for you, like in a cash pay model, there would be right to try in every state. I think right to try and under the supervision of a clinician. That's an important caveat. Like I believe in putting - I personally - Excuse me, doctor holding me back. Crap. I believe in the sacred relationship of a patient and clinician. I believe that most clinicians, when given the opportunity, want to do what is right for their patient. Absolutely. And oftentimes their hands are tied and they will go, like even you, you were very weary to say, I have a patient who's sick, but I don't want to prescribe off label because it puts your license at risk.

1:28:32But that's a travesty because that patient needs help and we shouldn't have to look over our shoulder.

1:28:38Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I remember this was during COVID. I had written a prescription for an indication for ivermectin for something. This was before it was all crazy. And I got a letter saying that if I ever did this again, that it would affect my license. And it was a different - Addressed to the horse pace doc. But also this person, we test for parasites all the time. There was an indication that whatever, they didn't care whether I'd put that indication They shut us down as a pharmacy. They sent us a letter saying they would revoke our pharmacy license in the state of Texas. Same thing because of ivermectin. Ivermectin.

1:29:08If we ship one more prescription of ivermectin, that they would shut down our pharmacy. I can ship ketamine. I'm not allowed to ship Ivermectin. If I have a horse, you can ship me Ivermectin if I have a horse, though, right?

1:29:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But can you imagine as a provider being restricted, being told that I can't write a script for a… That can help someone. But they don't know what I'm treating. We treat parasites all the time. And it was just, it's terrifying because providers, clinicians, we spend our lives dedicated to be able to care for people. Talking about experimental forward thinking stuff, getting into some fun things. What are the most exciting interventions that you've come across recently? Some of the most experimental things that you've been playing around with? Oh, man. I mean, we were just talking about plasmapheresis.

1:29:53That's an interesting one just because there's all sorts of different blood and plasma filtration protocols that people are turning to for microplastics, for lipid management, for mold. Can you explain the plasmapheresis thing? I did it by the way it raised to both. Like, yeah, like literally like pulling your blood out, filtering the plasma, replacing typically with either albumin or in some cases like actual human plasma or like Brigham has this soup of like stem cells and exosomes and all sorts of cool stuff that you can get put in. And so the idea is it's like an oil change for the body. And, you know, there's even places like in Mexico and Europe that will do blood filtration, not just plasma, different filtration mediums that are designed for different purposes.

1:30:45Like there's a heparin based filter that is designed for spike protein, right? Like a sticky fly trap for spike protein for something like long COVID. There's another one called the marker filter that is for microplastics. That's a specific filtration medium for that. So that's one that a lot of people are like electively doing out of pocket. A lot of times internationally, like TPE, like you can literally do that at Brigham's Clinic. Like you can do a basic plasmapheresis very easily, you know, depending on how many times you're squeezing the little rubber ball that you get to hold two, you know, four or five hours, but you're just basically sitting in a chair.

1:31:21getting and then the problem with that though is like when that was what i was alluding to earlier when a guy like joe posts that immediately it's like yeah this is my moment for these clinicians and they just tag his video and throw it up and they're trying to just riff and like coast off of the momentum that he created for it debunking it right and this is where i get it's like you're an academic you're now trying to debunk a placebo-controlled randomized trial like at what point Do we, like, pick a side. Do you believe in randomized controlled trials or do you not? Well, presumably they're saying that they have contrary data to the first randomized controlled trial.

1:32:00His main thing is there's only one major study that demonstrated this and the rest is anecdotal. But they've used plasmapheresis in hospital systems for decades. And it's still used. So plasmapheresis.

1:32:11Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So plasma is where they believe that the antibodies. So for example, if someone has a reaction to something within their body, depending on what the disease is, it exists within the plasma. It's concentrated somehow. Again, I'm not an immunologist, but to the best of my knowledge, within this plasma. It's also where toxins and all this other stuff live that, say, wouldn't be able to be excreted by the body through urine or feces or sweat naturally. So plasmapheresis is used in hospitals to this day where they use it for things that are extreme. Burn victims, anyone who's been exposed to a level of mold and toxins.

1:32:48A real world example too would be, again, Jelly Roll. I hate to keep saying it, but because he lost so much weight, he was chronically inflamed. Even though we were doing a ton of things to bring down his inflammation, all of that weight loss, you can only sweat it out so much. You can only excrete it so many ways. it ends up putting a major load on the kidneys in the and a lot of it back back to like but it's and then it started impacting his sleep uh and then as soon as we run him through plasmapheresis he calls me he's like bubba whatever the hell y 'all just did i i have i have not slept this great in years yeah people talk about like a sauna for you know do the natural version just sweat it out but i mean if you look at the size of a microplastic they range like the unit uh of measurement is a dalton and so the size of a microplastic ranges anywhere from like slightly under 100 to up to 1 ,000 Daltons.

1:33:36And what a sweat gland can actually pass through is like 100 Daltons. So arguably, maybe one-tenth of the microplastic exposure that you have, you can actually sweat out in a sauna. And considering that most of the microplastics, for example, in the food supply, like a plastic packaging or drinking out of a cup in Starbucks, are way larger than 100 Daltons, you just can't get rid of that in the sauna. It's an inconvenient truth, but if it's getting into your body at this point, it's pretty difficult to remove it. There are some gut binders. There's probably like 10 different supplement companies.

1:34:07Like Avmacol and stuff like that. Yeah, just over the past few months, people have been like mailing me whatever, like a sulforaphane-based compound for microplastic removal or some other like binding stack that supposedly removes it from the gut and possibly via some sort of osmotic gradient from the tissue as well but none of those are that proven and so so that's an example of like well at some point you just got to filter it out the problem with that is it's you know it's it's a long and expensive protocol that not everybody's gonna do but eventually maybe there

1:34:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:will be a way to democratize it we've seen that with a lot of medical that's the goal with all of this is to make it affordable for the masses and i think the biggest thing i've seen we should on shark tank like to suck it and just yeah what is that i've never seen that how long does it take How long does it take your body to replace the plasma? Because I think this is one of the concerns. You've got this period of time. You've gotten rid of all of this plasma. What you'll do is we'll add back in albumin. At the same time. Yeah, you immediately have that replenishment. The big critique is, or what people have tried to critique, is there is a drop in your immune system.

1:35:14But the truth is that drop is for 24 hours. So we were just talking to one of your buddies and he just did it, but then he got on a flight. I was like, oh man, I would not have done that. And what happened?

1:35:23Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Did he get sick? He felt run down and not great. Yeah, it's that. There's also the risk of the catheter, depending on where that is placed, having like a rupture or an issue. But you have a compromised immune system for 24 hours. So that is a legitimate risk. And this is, again, anything in medicine, you have that discussion. You make sure you tell that patient for the next 24 hours, you will have a compromised immune system. And then after that, your immune response is boosted. And all of that inflammation that was in your plasma is removed. And all of those shock proteins and all these different things that are causing so many issues, we're basically taking out the trash and replacing years and years of inflammation and gunk with albumin, young, clean albumin.

1:36:02What's albumin? It's literally a, yeah, it's just a protein that instead of - Same thing about egg white. Egg white has a ton of albumin in it. Egg white, you're putting egg white. Yeah, I mean, very, very similar. Okay. Okay. What are the strongest longevity interventions that are cost-free? Because much of this stuff sounds maybe difficult to access, people are outside of the country. So, yeah, epidemiologically, yes, lifting. Grip strength is often identified as a metric, but it's not because people who have big, meaty hands live longer. It's because people who lift heavy objects and do some type of manual labor or artificial manual labor inside of a gym tend to have high grip strength as a byproduct of that.

1:36:45So you're not going to live longer by having like a hand grip dynamometer in your car that you're squeezing all the time. It will make a little bit of a difference, but physical activity that exhausts the grip would be one. Uh, VO two max is another. And I think the, the misperception is that you need to do like these like fancy Norwegian four by four protocols to significantly increase VO two max, meaning like four minutes, maximum sustainable pace, balls to the wall, four minute recovery, four times through as a sample prescribed protocol for VO two max. I mean, just yesterday, there was a study that came out that showed that small burst anywhere from three to five times a week of 10 to 20 seconds had an impact on VO2 max.

1:37:26So these are like tiny bursts, like on an airdyne, just quick sprints. You think VO2 max of muscle mass is more important when it comes to training for longevity, if you could pick one? I would choose, if I had to pick one, I would choose muscle mass because I think low muscle mass, I'm not just saying this because Gabriel's sitting next to me. I kicked him out of the same boat. Which is a higher risk for frailty. And I think frailty is one of the, like not being able to outrun a lion is less likely to kill you than like stepping off the curb and being frail. Like with the VO2 max equation, like joking aside, yes, VO2 max can have a significant impact on cardiovascular health, but you can get pretty good cardiovascular health, uh, including blood pressure management with strength training.

1:38:10So if I had to choose one, it's an unrealistic scenario anyways, based on how easy it is to do VO2 max. You do both. And then the last one that I would name is like a free intervention. If we're not going to talk about like Harvard's longest running study on longevity, on happiness, relationships, love, all of that. Have a friend. Boring esoteric stuff aside, I would be walking speed. Yes, 7 ,000 to 8 ,000 steps a day is advisable, but the actual speed of walking, the pace, like the actual cadence of the walking is important. So VO2 max, grip strength, and walking speed. What's the specific one walking speed?

1:38:49I don't remember the actual pace based on whatever you would measure. Quicker than you might think. Like six seconds. The way I think about it is walk slightly faster than what your brain wants to do. There was, and I don't know if it's still available, a device called a counterpaste, like a heart rate strap that you could wear that tied to ear pods that tracks your heart rate and then helps you maintain a cadence that matches that heart rate so that your foot strike is occurring during the diastolic phase of heart pumping. So you're essentially like teaching your heart how to pump with each step.

1:39:21So that's like - Very similar like counter pulsation therapy they would do at a hospital for like post heart attack. But the idea is just like when you're walking, try to walk. It's like resonance breathing, but resonance walking. Kind of like that. Yeah. Up and down with the breath, but you're step and step with the heartbeat. Yeah. That's fine. Okay. Those would be three. I think if you were to look at the VO2 max versus muscle mass thing, if you were to say somebody is a 5 out of 10 on both, where would you stop? Because it seems to me that the muscle mass thing is largely talking about being protective in later life, frailty, falls, hip replacements, stuff like that.

1:39:58Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Metabolic health. Yeah. Immunial health. I don't know. I just – coming from the background of being such a bro, VO2 max was never anything that anybody really considered. And it seems like that's really had the ascendancy recently. Yeah, and it gets chased a lot as a number. It's largely reflective of cardiovascular health. I mean, it's definitely like if you're competing as like Ironman marathoner or swimmer or whatever, like VO2 max is important as a performance metric. But the reason that it tracks with longevity is not necessarily because maximum oxygen utilization is going to help you live longer.

1:40:31At least I don't think that. I think it's because it's reflective of overall cardiovascular health in the same way that grip strength, you know, having strong hands. I can hold on to something for a long period of time isn't going to make you live longer. But what you got you those strong hands is everything. Everything Ben's saying is like, that's when I, again, go back to what you do, what we do, comparing it to traditional medicine. Somebody comes in. The first thing we do is comprehensive blood work. That's one tool in the one assessment. But we also run them through a DEXA. And then we do a VO2 max, a walking VO2 max to assess their cardiovascular condition.

1:41:03You give me those three things. I put it into the AI algorithm. I cross-reference all of that. And we begin to model out all cause mortality. And I can begin to project if you're headed towards a chronic disease. So like in traditional medicine, somebody shows up sick, you write them a pill. Somebody gets it, you mask the symptom. And it's like, but why aren't we just practicing proactive predictive medicine? Like what you're doing in your practice, you can prevent 1.7 million Americans are dying every year of chronic disease. That's more than every war we've ever fought in the history of America in a year.

1:41:34And it's all preventable. But it's not longevity.

1:41:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And I wish there was another name for it because the reality is, and I think it's health span. I think it's muscle span, but yeah, health span. But I think, you know, as a geriatrician, which means I've taken care of a lot of dying people, that there is a one harsh reality. And that is nobody gets out alive. No one. And so is this increase in longevity just a distraction from the end result, which is that we will all die? And at some point, we have to recognize that it's going to happen. It is how we live within that timeframe. And maybe there's a genetic push past 85. We don't know. I mean, genetics play a role.

1:42:22Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We know some people that smoke and eat tacos and live to be 105. So, yes, being strong, being capable, not restricting protein. I know that you had a guest that was talking about protein restriction. That's not where I would say the – Not a lot of people need to hear that right now. But on a flip side, my argument is always if we can buy you time. I always say if we can buy your health span time and keep you healthy longer. There are folks like David Sinclair, my buddy, Dr. Ian White. Ian's 22 years stem cell research at Harvard at the bench. Yeah, those are interesting. And what he'll break down is pretty crazy.

1:42:58And this is why I have dinosaurs and jellyfish at our clinic. I was wondering about that. He literally breaks down that we share a common ancestor with every species on earth. We share DNA with the eternal jellyfish. Within us is a black box code. And there are companies in Texas right now that are doing gene activation. and we can literally inject you with a virus that will go turn on a gene that has been turned off, right? We can tell your body to put on more muscle. We can turn on a gene that can increase bone mineral density eightfold. These things exist today. And so my only thing getting more into the biohacking woo-woo like futuristic is can we buy you time?

1:43:36Can we through common practice, not the woo-woos, just through just good old bread and butter, smart medicine, buy you health span until one of these brilliant people crack the code of how do we turn on that gene? How do we turn on the jellyfish gene? The jellyfish gene where we all live for 150 years floating in water, floating in the dark.

1:43:55Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And aging is not abnormal. The idea that we're not going to, I mean, aging is normal, but the chronic disease, that's not normal. That's not a normal part of aging. And we've come to normalize all of that. And that's a problem. So if we stop stigmatizing testosterone and allow us to replace the things that we need. Yeah. Then - Yeah. Well, perhaps there's a through line here because if you down-regulate fertility enough and don't have children, that might be a viable life extension strategy. Sending a message to your lizard brain that you better stick around as long as possible because you have no progeny.

1:44:31So once you're gone - Oh, hold on. It's over. You got to hold on. So yeah, basically, I would say the most significantly, potentially significantly impactful life extension strategy - Not having kids. Don't have kids. Don't jerk off. Don't have kids. Okay. What do you make about the criticism? So Dr. Daniel Lieberman, who came on the show and I asked him about what's he think the current recommendations coming out of, I guess, our side of the world around one gram per pound, one gram per kilo to one gram per pound of body weight for protein. And he just sort of looked and was like, I think it's overblown.

1:45:04I don't think that people need that much. It doesn't really seem to make that much sense to me from a longevity standpoint. It doesn't seem to be that much evidence. I've looked at every big diet on the planet.

1:45:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That's interesting. He wasn't invited to the protein working group, which was all the 100 finest protein scientists. And they disagreed on some things, and they agreed on others. I don't know this gentleman, so it's not a knock to him. But in this room, these were the finest protein researchers from all over. Would that not mean that they're kind of biased? No, they don't all get along. So some of them are low-protein researchers. Well, yes, they are all the protein experts. Some agree on 1.1. I mean, they're all over the place. So what they do is they present the evidence to the best of their ability, all the evidence that have been done.

1:45:52Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And what they came up with is that there is no evidence that going below the minimum requirement has benefit at all. So going below like 0.55 grams per pound. They argued, is it, could you go from, is 1.1 better than 1.4? Potentially, is anything better than 1.6 grams? No, no one agreed that. So that's not one gram per pound. What about protein cycling? Like the idea from like an autophagy standpoint of like a fasting mimicking diet on a yearly basis or a period of protein restriction to simulate autophagy. And then most of the time you're actually eating, what are the 0.8 to 1.2 grams per pound?

1:46:33Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So to be clear, I was not invited there as a guest researcher, but I was there interviewing these guys. And one of the things that was interesting is that in terms of human trials, it seems as though the sweet spot for aging and optimal health, to find that as you will, is closer to 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg. So it's not one gram per pound, which is what I recommend. It's slightly below that. And what you're talking about is this idea of protein cycling. So the body turns over 250 to 300 grams of protein a day. As we age, we become less efficient at that. Liver turnover, all of this stuff. As we age, if we then begin to restrict protein, this is not moving in a positive direction.

1:47:20Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And all the aging, there's no aging data in humans that would suggest that that would be beneficial. Is his argument that we're over-consuming protein? The data doesn't support it. I was going to say, because most people, I feel like everyone I know doesn't. I think he was making an epidemiological case. Or observational or association. If I know the Lieberman you're talking about, that you don't come across a lot of long-lived cultures who are feeding at the levels that are currently recommended by a kook like this. But Joachim Maxine is interesting. I'd like to keep it simple stupid because my brain's not smart enough to figure all this out.

1:47:57Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I did give you my book, which has pictures. Yes, and I've read it. But what I learned - Reagan tried to color them in. That's why it wasn't - Yeah, I thought it was a coloring book. To be fair, the Forever Strong Playbook, I will give it a plug. It took me two years to write and it has pictures to make it simple and stupid. And it's digestible. I love it. And my main thought - He actually ate it. Is we, yeah, if we prioritize, I've learned in my life, if I prioritize protein, it is a caloric, dense, nutrient-rich aspect of my diet. And I will eat less of the ultra processed, less of all the bad things just anecdotally i'm not saying there's no science behind what i'm saying i'm just looking at going if i prioritize protein it fills me it it fills my appetite yeah i can't oh it's hard to overeat yeah if i eat a steak i'm done yeah like yeah and so do you not see a value in or would he not see a value in prioritizing protein first as part of your diet you're you're you're arguing for the benefits of protein intake as a calorie restriction mechanism Yes.

1:48:58Yeah. I imagine he would do too. I think my question was something like, what do you think about one gram per pound of body weight? It's on the higher end, yeah. That seems to be more than is necessary.

1:49:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I would agree with that statement. That is more than is necessary. I mean, it depends too. Like I have 18-year-old sons and they're probably hitting 1.4 to 1.5 grams per pound right now based on my grocery bills. But they're also highly anabolic. They're growing like knees. They're lifting every day. So it's pretty population specific. What about - That is exactly what they came to in the summit. What about fiber? Because I've been pretty good at sort of licking my finger, putting it in the air and working out what way the wind's blowing. I think the protein thing everyone could see a little while ago.

1:49:41Creatine. I was early on creatine. I was early on water quality. I think air quality, stuff like Jasper and mold. I think that's going to be a huge thing. Love Jasper, yeah. Next after that, I think it's going to be light. Light quality and light pollution, I think. and it's slowly sort of trickling through the echelons of health. Fiber to me seems to be just about sort of taking that, it's at the hockey stick moment here. And I get the sense that protein and fiber are going to be a little antagonistic to each other when it comes to designing a diet. So I'm interested in what you guys think when it comes to fiber optimizing gut health.

1:50:16Everyone gives a fuck about bloating and digestion and leaky gut. That's exactly it. I don't think that high protein intake necessarily rules out fiber, but what you were just saying is the one thing that flies under the radar. Yes, fiber is beneficial for everything from glycemic variability to bowel movements to the microbiome and the fact that it's often a food for probiotics leading to postbiotic production. the issue is the large number of the population that has issues like small intestine bacterial overgrowth or diverticulitis or some form of of of ibs or an issue that results in them hearing that the giant ass kale salads are a really good idea and that they should put a bunch of spinach in their smoothies and just totally f's them over and they're painting the back of the toilet seat so i i think that it depends again on like what the gut biome looks like and what someone's especially like the gas production by specific bacteria in the gut looks like before you decide what kind of fiber someone should be on or the fermentable nature of that fiber, like inulin and chicory root and shit, like that completely screws some people over as far as gas and gloning.

1:51:30And then for other people, it's great gut food. It feels like fiber is much more individually variable that you could probably look at most people and say, yeah, if you had like one gram per kilo of body weight of protein, like you'd probably be all right. Whereas, yeah, if you threw a bunch of oxalates at one person from spinach that's not being cooked, they're going to have a very different response to somebody else who doesn't have that kind of gut microflora.

1:51:52Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, I think that is a frontier that we don't know enough about. My prediction is the food matrix conversation is next. The bro bodybuilding sphere, we're great. There's, I guess I would include myself in there, boiled chicken, egg whites. We know what the protein is. We know the macros, rice, chicken. But what we don't know is how, for example, there was a study that came out on high-fat dairy. We don't actually understand how the fat in dairy, the compounds, then work with the protein and the carbohydrates within that food matrix. It's not repeatable. It's not supplementation. It is within the dynamic of, say, for example, a steak, yes, has protein, yes, has B vitamins, but it has anserine, taurine.

1:52:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It has these other, what you imagine as a phytonutrient in plant. It has its own carny nutrient. And it's how those all fit together. We don't really know how the foods all work together. Is it possible for you guys to give general advice when it comes to fiber and eating for gut health through a diet? Because it seems, again, this fingerprint, each person's flora is slightly different. da-da-da-da-da. We can say, hey, one gram per kilo of body weight protein, that's probably a good baseline. Can you give me equivalent baselines when it comes to fiber intake for humans who just want to have good diet?

1:53:15Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, I can cheat here because I'm a doctor, so we test. We don't guess. We do stool tests. We do breath tests. We do tests. So if you have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, we would treat that. We would put you on a diet that was essentially low FODMAP. So there's ways that you can experiment, but also test so you're guessing less. And low FODMAP isn't necessarily synonymous with low fiber, but you're literally limiting fruit tans, oligosaccharides, disaccharides, what else? Monosaccharides and polyols. And so these are specific compounds that if you were to Google high FODMAP diet, you would want to avoid because those are sources of fiber that would cause gas and bloating.

1:53:55But that doesn't mean that you can't eat fiber at all. You can do like, like on a low FODMAP diet, you can do like chia seed slurry right like put a bunch of chia seeds in water soak them have that as like a pudding um uh a lot of times like seeds and nuts you know the fiber in the skin and those that would also be acceptable but then like apples pears garlic onions all that stuff would be out and in some cases like mixed greens romaine lettuce like a lot of things you'd find a salad those are fine you know kale it kind of depends because then there's the whole thing you brought up which is like is oxalate sensitivity an issue so gabriel makes a great point it's like we now I live in an era where you could get like a Genova diagnostic stool test.

1:54:33You could get a Trio Smart SIBO breath test and see if you're reactive to certain fiber-based foods. Those tests are not that expensive. We can't just give this. Hey, you're going to go breathe into a tube every couple of minutes for a couple of hours. What you could say is like have 40 grams of fiber a day or more. And if you have gas or bloating when you start doing that, go get tested to figure out what's causing the gas. Yeah, we always say yes, but. But, like, anyways, well, we'll say yes, but, like, yes, this is a good rule of thumb, but there's always outliers. Everybody's different. Personalized medicine should take a personalized touch.

1:55:07To do that, it requires the analytics and the data to have the knowledge of you specifically, and you're a unique individual. So let's look at you as a unique individual and tailor a unique program. And it sounds like almost that's what you are both saying. This is why people feel overwhelmed by health, I think, in the modern world. because they're like, oh, well, I've got to go and get this fucking special fingerprint thing done, and I don't know where to go, and maybe I'm in a country that can't provide it, or maybe I'm going to have to pay out of pocket, and I can't afford it, and then I've got to adjust on that stuff.

1:55:32There are workarounds, and there are levels. For example, with what we're talking about with the FODMAP and the SIBO issue, there's an at-home breath testing device called a food marble, and it gets a pretty decent corollary. It's not as good as a more expensive lab-based test, but it can help you to keep track of primarily the fiber-based foods that would cause something like bloating. The other thing is just simple food elimination, right? Yeah, there's always an answer. This is the old school tactic for, well, let's cut everything out. Let's start from scratch. And you're going to have steak and chicken and fish and maybe some sweet potato mash.

1:56:04Eggs and white rice. Like a paleo-esque type of approach. And then you could start to add in some grains, some dairy, some different forms of fiber. And you're going to get to the point where you can identify within like four weeks. An app, right, to track what was it that I added in. You could use an app. I mean, you can easily use like a clot or GPT model now to literally say, okay, here's everything I ate. Here's my gas and bloating symptoms. And within four weeks, you're going to get a pretty good map of the culprits.

1:56:28Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It doesn't have to be complicated to be effective. And we live in the information overload. And that's the disease. The disease is distraction. We can fully simplify. People know what works well for them. If they don't, they can track it. But you eliminate, you keep it simple, and you add things in slowly. I think we overcomplicate it. That's what we were saying. That's kind of where I was going with the protein is, as I say, don't let perfection get in the way of progress. And it's baby steps. You don't have to be perfect. Just be better. Make slightly better choices. Test things out. Like you're not going to die if you try a fiber and it doesn't work out for you and you're bloated and have stomach upset for a few days.

1:57:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:There was a pear bezoar. Someone ate, it was something like 300 pears. and they actually got a, you know, the hair ball of a, it's actually called a pear beezor and it created a small bowel obstruction. Who the fuck eats 300? There was one case study. I think 300 anything is going to cause a small bowel obstruction. It was a case study. I could easily get 300 blue breeze, dude. I will take on the small bowel obstruction challenge. I could make it happen. Do you guys follow a specific diet? Yeah, it's called a Forever Strong Playbook. What is it? No, no. So it's a higher protein diet. I don't eat a ton of processed food at all.

1:57:46Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Prioritize protein. We make it very simple. I have two crazy kids. And what about like grains, dairy, like a lot of the stuff that people avoid? And I think we're starting to see that it has protective effects. We do high-fat dairy, fermented foods. The one thing that we don't eat is a ton of packaged processed foods. Yeah. Aside from like beef sticks. Right. But it's sweet potato, will eat rice. I'm not a low-carb person. Yeah. It sounds very like Weston A. Price-ish. It is. Where grains aren't eliminated, but they need to be like fermented or soaked or sprouted. Dairy is like the full-fat varietal.

1:58:21Good meats. Yeah. fermented vegetables. Where have you come into land now, Ben? Obviously, you've experimented. I'm pretty close to a paleo diet with a lot of fermented vegetables. Most of my carbohydrates are underground storage organs like sweet potato, yam, purple potato, berries, and honey. Most of my vegetables are kimchi, sauerkraut, and then a lot of hunted wild game meat, super clean fish that is farmed not wild caught so i know the exact sourcing and that it's clean what it's been fed um steak chicken poultry or um um pastured pork and then i do like my dessert is typically uh coconut yogurt like i go through that uh what was it called coco june so good oh my gosh

1:59:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:that's the brand oh it's so good coco june blueberries dark chocolate is not only my dessert, but I've eaten twice today and that was my meal was just cocoa, June, blueberries, dark chocolate. And then a little bit of it. It's like I got Cacadamia nuts, Brazil nuts, and that's pretty much it. Besides all the peptides. Where are you getting your fish from? A company called Seatopia. They've got like 30 plus different farms around the world and they very tightly control what the fish is fed. They are tested for things like microplastics, parasites and then they flash freeze and ship to your house and they've got a pretty good varietal just like or a king salmon and halibut some shellfish scallops and it's the cleanest stuff I could find.

2:00:01What was that steak company that you gifted me the steaks? And I hope they've got a check in the mail now to me. Because that was insane. Okay so this crazy breed of cattle that originated from the Middle East. Piedmontese fucking rules. No more Piedmontese. kind of. So this breed of cattle originated from the Middle East and A, they have the myostatin knockout gene, meaning they've got this unparalleled muscle growth, big Arnold Schwarzenegger-esque cows. The result of that is that the muscle fiber thickness is like one sixteenth the diameter of a normal Angus cow. So it's super digestible. A medium rare is like 95 degrees.

2:00:43That's how fast it cooks. But then these cattle have also developed, based on their origination, sweat glands, which is also something that is less common, but one of the key contributors to off-flavored or tough meat in general, whether it's hunted meat or farmed meat or anything else. Sweaty cows. I have no idea. It's cortisol. So cortisol upregulation causes calcium influx, basically the effect of - Like, product rigor mortis. But a cow that can manage thermal stress eliminates one of the most common sources of cortisol in cattle, which is like being subjected to extremes of heat or cold and being unable to deal with it.

2:01:24So these cows wound up in Canada. There was like a Canadian farmer up north on the west side who had like one bull and three cows. a guy, a horse farmer in Washington State connected with these folks in Canada like 30 years ago.

2:01:41Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:This better be the best food cattle. Shipped some across the border. It's like the Adam and Eve of the cow world. A year and a half ago, I get an Instagram message from this farm by Spokane and they're like, we have the only 100 % pure Piedmontese beef in all of North America and you can only find this stuff now in Italy and the Middle East. I talk to these guys. So it hasn't been bred with Angus, So a lot of the Piedmontese is like 75, 25 or 50, 50. So then I actually went to the farm. Long story short is I'm like, well, is it grass fed, grass finished? They're like, no, it's like grass fed, acorn fed, trussed wine, grapeskin fed, carrots.

2:02:19The thing to it. Like customized from birth. And so long story short is I got a whole steer and these things are massive. I got it like almost two years ago and I'm still, or they store it all at the farm and then they ship to me. So I'm still ordering off this spreadsheet. Like me and my wife and 18 year old sons have still not eaten this whole cow. It's like a time chef of food. That's the meat. It is the weirdest meat. He dropped, shipped me some and now I knew. I tried to get some. I'm like, I'm not able to get some. It's so lean. They butchered it. And I'm like, I would love to have some of the tallow because tallow is great to cook with and do your potatoes with.

2:02:56They're like, dude, there is no tallow. These things are so lean that they're just like no dripping, no fat whatsoever. So when you cook it, I actually use a lot of extra like olive oil, towel, extra or tallow, extra fat, because I think the flavor profile when you don't have the fat is just still a little bit too lean. But yeah, that's the steak. So wait a second. They're called Monzo.

2:03:19Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So the listener or the watcher is thinking, I'm never going to get that cow. You know, I tried to get some of this meat. I couldn't get it. I talked to the founder. I'm like, how many cows do you guys have? Fucking VIP meat. It goes to the professional footballers. They do a lot of like NHL, NFL. They do. They do. Okay. But for the other people, there are meal delivery services. I use one that's only in Texas and Oregon and Denver. And they use, there's this company, gosh, what are they? Not Piedmontese. What is it? Grazing. There's another one. I don't know. Did the delivery drivers have sweat glands though?

2:03:51But I just say that for someone who's listening.

2:03:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So anyway, there is a company and it's called MyFit Foods and they're available in Texas. They use grass-fed, grass-finished. It's for those of us that can't get the crazy. What about beans? I haven't heard you say anything about beans in your time. They have beans in it. Beans do not agree with me. So I don't want to talk about those. No, it is interesting. I'm thinking soluble fiber. That's a big thing. The whole like Blue Zones data, which is rife with birth record issues and falsified data. But I think you could make a case that legumes and beans in general do provide good fermentable substrate for the microbiome.

2:04:29It's just that in many people, including myself, those bacteria produce massive amounts of gas. I'm not a chili guy. I don't know about you guys. I love chili. I don't know whether it loves me, but I absolutely love it.

2:04:43Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So why the fiber? Why are you interested in fiber right now? I just have this prediction, seeing what's happening with probiotic fiber at the moment, Olipop, Poppy, Bloom Pop, that whole world. Looking at what happened with AG1, with companies like Seed, with David Beckham's new thing, IMA. Like everybody is, if you want to sell shit to women, put bloating on the front of a piece of packaging. Right. Every woman's worried about bloating. How much of this is just artificial solution to artificial problem? tons of high calorie highly processed foods sugar fermented foods maybe there's some epg in there some other bullshit going on like whatever it is that's happening it's causing people to feel digestively off and now they're looking for what the solution is i i we've already been through the protein revolution creating revolutions happening now i i already know i think people are now buying more fiber supplements than protein supplements that was a i think the problem is So paradoxically, fiber contributes to a lot of the issues that you just described.

2:05:46And I think the elephant in the room is that one of the primary causes of all of that gas and bloating is lack of digestive enzyme production and slowed gastric emptying. And most of the things that happen when you eat quickly or in a stressed out state, which basically defines a lot of our culture's eating habits. So I think that slow eating and eating in a parasympathetic state would be way better for people's gas and bloating than sucking down a bottle of inulin. Did you see that study that came out recently looking at people's eating speed in the endogenous GLP-1 release? Did you see this?

2:06:25Can you explain it?

2:06:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah. So the body releases GLP-1 naturally. Typically it rides, and I didn't see this study particularly, but it rides with protein. So once you get a protein bolus, it should release GLP-1. It should be very short-lived and it should be done. Protein increases satiety through this mechanism. Also, I believe that there's some fat. But the faster you eat, the faster it gets there. I'm assuming that the GLP-1 would have less of a weight for. So grazing more slowly meant that you got a higher release of GLP-1, which meant that you were more satisfied more quickly. Satisfied more. But the question is, how long does that last?

2:07:00Yeah.

2:07:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:How long does that last? That would not be comparable to a long half-life of a GLP-1. Yeah. Period. I mean, all I know is that if you look at digestive enzyme production and you look at like vasoconstriction, lack of blood flow to the gut, slowed gastric emptying, like it is better for you to not suck down your superfood smoothie while you're driving 60 miles an hour down the highway on your way to work. and I'd rather just see someone fast or wait until they can actually be in a parasympathetic state to eat. What's the current data around fasting? Because it seems to have been bunked and rebunked so many times.

2:07:38Autophagy, maybe it does work, maybe it doesn't work. Is it just calorie restriction? Is it an easier route to calorie restriction? Is there something super special about 16 eights? So the basic idea is that when you go head to head, something like an intermittent fasting study with overall calorie restriction, there is no big winner. There's nothing magic about fasting that beats out just like shoving fewer calories into your gaping maw. The advantage is that with a compressed feeding window, it becomes more difficult to eat excess calories. And that's mostly the case until you get past about the 18-hour mark of fasting.

2:08:20past the 18 hour mark that's when you start to see cellular autophagy and a lot of these longevity mechanisms kick in that could make the case for an occasional longer fast obviously like activity level and what kind of anabolic phase of life that you're in etc would dictate that but my recommendation to most men is like a 12 to 16 hour overnight intermittent fast and every once in a while go longer than 18 hours like a 24 hour dinner time to dinner time fast like once a month for example. And then back to that protein cycling, protein restriction thing, something like a quarterly fasting mimicking diet, right?

2:08:57Where you're slightly underfeeding protein, slightly underfeeding calories, but it's just for a few days to simulate like a famine type of scenario. Yeah. And then for the reason I said for men is for premenopausal women, regularly fasting for longer than 12 hours may have an impact on kispeptin, which is upstream of LH and FSH, which are fertility-related hormones. And so women closer to the 12-hour mark, guys closer to 12 to 16 hours, post-menopausal women would be closer to the 12 to 16-hour mark. But that's basically the way that I do fasting is 12 to 16 hours, intermittent fast daily, quarterly fasting mimicking diet about once a month, 24-hour dinner to dinner.

2:09:37So you're saying there is something special in the autophagy, in the cell clearance, intermittent versus grazing and just restriction. once you get past 18 hours. But in most cases, the definition of intermittent fasting is not these long one to three-day fasts. Intermittent fasting is typically like a daily compressed feeding window. And usually it tops out at around 16 hours. But you think there is some special source in a 24-hour fast? There is occasionally. You just have to balance the anabolic, catabolic scenario.

2:10:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, there's other ways to do it. Through training, there's different mechanisms. Sonical, thermal stress. Yeah, there's other ways. And so if you are somebody who is at risk of frailty or you're just trying to get yoked or older or whatever. No one who's at risk of frailty listens to this podcast. That's kind of true. My mom does. She's not at risk of frailty. This is true. I gave her a mom. Talking about longevity tests, we're looking at the things that people should be paying attention to. where do you think people are wasting money or effort or time the most either on diagnostic or sort of intervention side things for health more generally like is there a particular type of test that's widely regarded that people think is bullshit and what do you reckon i mean there's there's ones that like we even do but it just gives you more knowledge like the mtfhr but you can do that through process of analysis of elimination like you had said like cutting, adapting which supplements you take and using methylated supplements.

2:11:08There's, is it a necessity? No, if you, you could just do that through process of elimination and save money. I think, um, and this might be a little bit of a contrarian stance, but I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed right now on cardiovascular risk potential based on either a cardiovascular risk score, right? Do you have high blood pressure, smoking history, family history of cardiovascular disease, et cetera, and what does your lipid panel look like, right? Not just like the basic stuff like LDL, HGL, triglycerides, LP little a, Apple B. The issue is that that can be a clue, but definitely not a telltale sign of actual plaque deposition in the heart.

2:11:51And I am increasingly convinced after seeing so many people come back from their or CCTAs, like an angiography of the heart, like a CT scan. Clearly. Usually with AI-based diagnostic imaging, clearly.

2:12:04Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Which would be both heart and soft. To actually show, yes, where hard, more stable, hard plaque, which you would typically see in more of like an athletic population who scarred up their heart a little bit, or unstable, more likely to break loose plaque, resulting in a stroke or a heart attack, lies, right? So the AI-based diagnostic imaging can tell you that. And the reason that's important is because in many cases, people, including myself, have a pretty good lipid panel. right? LDL, HDL, triglycerides, yada, yada, yada. But then you do the CT angiography and you actually see plaque deposition that if not monitored and addressed either allopathically with like a lodostatin or a PCSK9 inhibitor or some of those that are used.

2:12:45Exactly. Or more non-traditionally, right? With enzymes like lumbrokinase, natokinase. There's a new cyclodextrin that's being in trial right now to actually break down the plaque, you actually could be at risk and not even know it. Or you could alternatively be on a statin or a path or whatever else due to high cholesterol and not even need it because you don't have any plaque deposition. So the idea of imaging for the heart, indirect answer to your question is I think myopically focusing on a lipid panel is either A, causing people to be prescribed a medication that they might not need, or B, telling them they're okay when in fact there can be significant plaque at play.

2:13:30So you're saying rather than obsessing over lipid panel, you would just go and get a clear list. I think anybody who has a history of heart exercise, anybody who has a family history of cardiovascular disease, I'm not a doctor, by the way, don't take this as medical advice. I think even like perimenopause, you know, that the risk goes up significantly.

2:13:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We always get what you're saying. You should get it. I agree with it. CT angiography? So traditionally, which is really interesting, after men leave the pediatrician, there's no need for them to go to the doctor. For example, women go to OBGYN, you know, they get a gynecological exam, but men, they leave the, why would you have to go to the doctor? They don't really have a reason, which is a mistake. So getting a baseline testosterone, baseline And cardiovascular testing is great, like your boy's age now. But then not necessarily treating with medication. Having a baseline exam by 40, we recommend that you have a baseline heart scan, both hard and soft plaque.

2:14:31What would be the gold standard for that?

2:14:33Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Clearly. Clearly scan. Dude, that fucking clearly thing. It'll just show you like cubic millimeters of actual plaque deposition. But now if you do that for muscle, so right now with a DEXA, I think this is where the future is going. Right now we look at a DEXA. Dexa compartmentalizes bone, body fat percentage, and then extrapolates lean body mass. But we don't look at muscle quality. You and I have talked about this a lot. We're not imaging routinely muscle quality. I believe they do it in Japan, whether through ultrasound or MRI, where you see - You can occasionally see it if you get a treatment done, like a stem cell injection of the doctor using ultrasound.

2:15:04You can see the quality of the muscle somewhat, but it's not done in standard practice.

2:15:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That's a greater driver of, say, insulin resistance than body fat percentage. It's the fat that's in the muscle, and we don't image it. So you'd be looking at a whole body MRI rather than a DEXA? Yes. Yes. I mean, you look at it. You could sit still for an hour. There's not that many places. No, there's got to be other ways. There's a new one. Did you see the water one? You sit basically in a hot tub. That mind who's developing it. It looks fascinating. The AI-based company is developing it, right? Yeah. I forget what it's called. I don't even know. Is it them? I don't know quantifiably how well it does.

2:15:38You literally step into water and it uses frequency-based mechanisms to do some type of a digital signal that's similar to a full-body MRI.

2:15:46Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But that's the future. I'm telling you, that's the future of medicine. You still need a DEXA. You still need to look at bone density. But looking at the quality of this tissue, I think you're going to be able to correlate it with insulin resistance and disease outcomes. It's surprising to me that clearly scans, for the people that see L-E-E-R-L-Y, that they're not more widely used when heart disease is like the number one killer of everybody. They're more expensive. They subject you, depending on the speed of the machine, to a somewhat significant amount of radiation. Once they go, it's fine. And there's still holes in the process.

2:16:22Like if you got a CT angiography in 2024, the software algorithm has changed like six times since then. So if you're running the same data through a 2026 software that's been updated, like the data set is not necessarily going to be similar. And most of the time, they're not running it through. Yeah, you have to request your raw data and run it back through an old data set. So there's issues. But in general, even if it falls into like the concierge-based medicine category, I think more people should be considering a scan like that. I don't know. How much is it? Are you got any idea how much out of pocket it clearly would be?

2:16:57Grand maybe?

2:16:57Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, I think it's around that. I mean, that's not cheap, but fuck. You don't need to get it done that much. Get it done 40 years old as a guy. Get a baseline. It's controversial. A lot of people will correlate. I've seen up to 97 % accuracy claims a carotid intima media thickness score with a CCTA, meaning using actual ultrasound to look at carotid plaque deposition. And based on data sets, correlate that to what you'd get from a CT angiography. And that's like a five-minute scan on both sides of your neck. It's difficult to estimate how powerful that prediction is. But there are a lot of companies, unfortunately, in the CIMT space who claim that it's really close to CT angiography.

2:17:47Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:but full body mri which is very controversial we recommend them we recommend them full body mri these are early detection screening tools um you'll hear physicians say why would you screen for something what are you going to do about it well that's like saying i don't want to look under the covers i'm just gonna you know hide put my head in the sand yeah if you know there's an issue you want to find it early it can freak you out though like there are there are certain things like i have full arthritis like literally like from my cervical then have someone else read it for you and i'm and i'm that's what i was reading for but but like there's a lot of stuff that you you can see and it doesn't necessarily mean that you that is true surgery no or you know that i need to get my spine operated on no like in my case i do i do stew mcgill's big three i hang fucking table every day shout out to mcgill dude do a lot of plank training take care of my spine i always have a giant water bottle behind me on an airplane which helps a ton and so i go relatively pain-free, but full body MRI shows like, I'm super effed up, like my entire spine.

2:18:48So it can be scary for a lot of people. I think a lot of it though too comes down to good clinicians having good conversations. Same thing with the cancer screening. Like we can screen for 200 types of cancer at stage zero. We can tell you seven years in advance before you - So we use those,

2:19:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:all that you use the grail test. Yes. And then it's important to have the nuanced conversation and have the time. So traditional medicine will go, well, you don't need that. Like we will, you know that is a mistake but it's like it's a yeah and we've seen so I helped implement this with soldiers with special operators because they are exposed to so much stuff they have three fold the risk yes burn pit you name it what's that from being exposed to random particulates yes also shooting guns yeah all that gunpowder is getting absorbed people don't think about it you're absorbing all that through your skin and we yes and we've saved guys lives because we were early enough in detection.

2:19:42And then even to go back to microplastics, but like, this is a crazy one. I didn't realize this until we had this meeting with Ken Paxton here. And there's a woman advocate who's banging on the desk about little girls now start putting lip gloss on between ages six and eight. The average American girls putting lip gloss on between six and eight is flavored lip gloss. Moms and dads are buying it. Yeah. But it's, it is loaded with microplastics. And so they're absorbing plastics. And the reason your lips are pink is you have more blood vessels in your lips and so it's a higher absorption rate and so little girls are absorbing crazy levels of microplastics through lip gloss and your first avoid lip gloss and don't eat after loading your mag wow so surely someone's going to come along and make a kid-friendly microplastic free hey what they're arguing today is like at minimal they need to change the labeling of what they call all natural and like mandate that you disclose a risk profile.

2:20:39And so the Texas is looking at potentially forcing companies. But what we've learned with food is if you can get two or three big states to do it, it's so painful on the big corporations that they'll just change the label everywhere. Because they don't have to split all of the... Correct. Do you think in future we might see kind of the same as in the UK? I don't know whether it's the same over here. Smoking packets have got almost 90 percent of it is taken up with some horrible artery like it's a warning label can you see the same thing happening maybe around other around maybe microplastics or other contributing elements you mean like a photo of just like teeny tiny testicles on a lip gloss bottle it does decline to infertility yeah yeah but that's one of the reasons why they think that that fertility infertility is increasing adds shana yeah what was it 97 or 99 percent a minute have microplastics in our testicles oh did you see where most of that came from though that it was in the fucking gloves oh if i get to teach all three of you wait you mean the gloves being used in the study yes so the big microplastics the big micro jared pull it up it's hilarious that's crazy fucking microplastics study just search microplastics glove contamination they were wearing fucking nitrile gloves that and how how is it that these gloves bend why do they bend because tiny little bits of plastic are breaking off.

2:22:01So literally what happened was, we're sorry, the plastic gloves we were wearing got on the plastic detector of the microplastic study we were doing and contaminated the results. So the - Yeah, it's wild. There it is. Glabs may be skewed. This is March 29th, University of Michigan scientists may be unknowingly inflating microplastics, pollution estimates, and the surprising source could be their own lab gloves. University of Michigan study found common nitrile and latex gloves released tiny particles called sterates, which closely resemble microplastics and can contaminate samples during testing.

2:22:30In some cases, this led to wildly exaggerated results, forcing researchers to track down the unexpected culprit. Don't fucking test me, dude. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. There's a lot. There's a lot of confusion and misperceptions in the microplastic industry. Like the sweat thing is one. The chewing gum is full of microplastics issue. The size of the microplastics in chewing gum actually is too large to be absorbed in the gut, in most cases, in significant amounts. So chewing gum is less of an issue. And then the... There's another one. What do you think of clothing? Because everyone, there's a whole thing against Lululemon and stuff now too.

2:23:06Well, there was another big study a few weeks ago that actually compared like how much microplastic exposure do you actually decrease with certain lifestyle-based modifications? like your clothing, the type of packaging that you store your food in, your personal care products, which involves shampoo and conditioner, whatever, which is stored in plastic bottles. The number one contributor, bar none, was oral exposure via plastics in your food. So what you store your food in or the food that you buy in plastic is the number one contributor. So if you're going to do anything, like - Which, by the way, is impossible to get rid of.

2:23:43It's not swapping out your garbage bag. Like, there's a lot of stuff that you can do. Yeah, but think about it.

2:23:46Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:When you go to the grocery, almost everything is in plastic. And that's the problem. We live in a society that right now is pretty much engineered for you to get your food in plastic, even if it's healthy. But even a little level of awareness, because you talked about MyFitFoods. I used to use them 10 years ago. I pulled the data. I was so dumb, I would heat up in the plastic. So listen, that's so funny. 10 years ago, I didn't know. I'd heat up my little pre-prep meal in the plastic in a microwave. Free microplastic. I'm so glad you brought that up. Now I put it on a plate. So I asked them to pull me the data from, was there BPAs in the containers or the cover?

2:24:21Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And there wasn't. They used some very expensive company to not have microlossics. So we're working at the moment. I love their stuff. Inside every can, there's a plastic liner. I know. That's how you don't get stuff contaminated with the metal. However, you can use a biodegradable natural plant compound liner. so we're looking at how much it's going to cost for us to line this please do that because i drink two of these a day i know i know they're fucking awesome however leave it with me until you find out 10 years from now it's some edamame based phytoestrogen is killing you yeah exactly slowly taking over your brain you're just like castrating everyone with new tonic a bunch of smart people who can't have kids god damn it yeah uh yeah i um i think the this sort of current future that we've got moving toward with all of the different diagnostics all of the different interventions.

2:25:10What do you think, if you were to make some of your predictions for where you think the attention is going to be in future, I think air quality is going to be huge. That's just about coming online. I think light pollution, internally flicker, LED, stuff like that. Is there anything else? Social media. Anabolics. It's going to get bigger and bigger. Anabolics. Okay. What do you mean social media? The use of social media. We have awareness, but I don't think we yet really understand how detrimental it is to children in development, like being on technology and the level of technology that kids are exposed to is going to have some sort of major impact that we'll look back and go, wow, was that like the tobacco of our time?

2:25:50It's the smoking of teenagers in 2026. Yeah.

2:25:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:No one thought the idea that anabolics - What do you mean anabolics? Like the anabolic agents that they use in HIV and wasting that were used like nandrolone, things beyond testosterone, they're used in HIV and wasting, FDA approved, anabolic agents. I think it's going to be - You mean that anabolic agents will become an increasingly popular treatment strategy for sarcopenia? Yeah, there's an amazing study on nandrolone and bone mineral density. That's right. You guys earlier were talking about free testosterone, one of the little tricks that I think I learned from Larry. There are carnalaginous receptors for growth hormone.

2:26:34and it might be able to be used for actual cartilage repair as well. And then there's things like men who have an issue with free versus total, right? So you've got their total testosterone at an optimal level, but their free is suffering. A lot of times that's sex-binding goblin hormone. And so then if you add in a microdose of Anabar, it will literally like a Pac-Man gobble up the sex-binding goblin. That's interesting. Ooh, microdosing Anabar. Let's go. Although, yeah. Although I have like the... But there's a benefit. I think the elephant in the room with SHBG, though, is that sex hormone binding globulin is also something that increases in a state in which the body senses something like famine, starvation, stress, or any type of scenario in which it would be unwise to bring more humans into the world.

2:27:26Right. And so people who are on like a strict ketogenic diet have high SHBG. People who are under a lot of cortisol load, high stress, they have high SHBG. So in many cases, like it can be something as simple as just like do like eat more carbs with dinner, sleep a little bit more, lower stress.

2:27:43Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, it goes up. What do you think about nandrolone in older male populations as like, obviously you still keep them on a test sip or an anthate, but then micro dose or low dose. I think that that's going to be the way of the future and we have to address it. And if we, if we, and so we have a mutual friend, Dr. Larry Lipschultz, the godfather of male fertility. Yeah. He's the, I've known him for, I don't know, 30 or 20 something years. He was the guy who developed the entire field. Is he like wings and an arrow? He's been, he's been using peptides for literally like 20 years. He used to write for GQ magazine.

2:28:16He's got, but he's a heavily, heavily accredited academic at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas. he's literally wrote the book on urology and he's just such a subject matter expert he's the one who originally taught me and like helped me i mean i was i was literally 25 body fat doing crossfit every day trying to eat right couldn't figure things out felt like i was just run ragged and he optimized me to where all of a sudden i went from 25 to 7 without testosterone he literally used hcg and clomiphene and was one of the first. And he's in his 80s. No, Andrew? Yeah, no, no.

2:28:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:He's in his 80s, but that's the future. We have to address it. Whatever happened to GHRP2 and GHRP6 and ModGRF? Because I was fucking about with that 15 years ago. And I'm surprised when we're talking about, oh, we're going to have a human growth hormone rather than going exogenous, trying to create some endogenous feedback loop. Right, you mean like growth hormone secretagogues? Yes. I think better options came out and there was such a hunger surge too. there was a lot of I don't want to say the fucking ghrelin release did you ever use it? did you ever try it? oh yeah I know and I would sweat did you ever try this?

2:29:23no this is an early this is an early growth hormone releasing hexapeptide and bipeptide you know who prescribed me it was Larry Lipschultz and this was again like 15 years ago I think the other peptides we were talking about like tessamorellin and ipaparellin CJC1295 they've all replaced it a lot of those are what people are using now yeah but are they mimicking the same sort of yeah same pathway but without all of the like yeah the with a lower side effect profile and the same we used to we used to shoot it when i was in university the only way that you could use it was if you hit yourself with it as you were cooking because by the time that you would finish the meal you were like beyond ravenous because it's just dumping ghrelin right like just over i mean it was overwhelming it was great if you're trying to put on weight right so So what happens?

2:30:14Is it still used? No, it's transitioned out. Nobody really uses it. Everything moved to CJC and all these other security logs. There we go. Yeah. Down. Tear tower. I think, by the way, you mentioned light pollution. Yes. And you said air pollution, right? Yes. Yeah, I think air quality and light quality are going to be... I think water and electricity are three and four. I think water's already been done. I've already liked electricity. Okay, so water's already been done. electricity would mean um non-native emf such as wi-fi routers uh 5g square waveform signals at a higher intensity and things that may cause either actual thermal heating if very close to the body such as like cell phone radio frequency or low level up regulation of channels in cells related how crazy do you know level are you that aggressive my house is pretty aggressive like Everything is hardwired with metal shielded cables, ethernet.

2:31:10There is no Wi-Fi. Every floor is grounded. I mean, at my house, we pulled out all the stops in terms of circadian-friendly lighting to address light pollution. You don't understand. Air filter or scrubber. Ben showed me the guy that came in to help. Who'd the bio home dude? What was his name? Brian Hoyer. Right. So this guy comes in looking like a dude out of fucking Ghostbusters. He's got the backpack in. Like more meters than you've ever seen in your life that measure. It's unbelievable. He was like Dr. Octopus. Magnetic and electrical. He's got all of this bullshit attached to his arms, and he's going around spraying for poltergeists and stuff.

2:31:45He's like, I can see in the corner, there's some 5G in the corner. We've got to get rid of the 5G in the corner. There was a murder here 20 years ago. So do you feel a difference? Oh, you absolutely feel a difference. And a lot of this stuff, of course, has the big fat woo bat signal on it because it is an inconvenient truth that there may be an effect on everything from the neurochemical balance in cells based on low-level exposure to radiation or radio frequencies or EMF to the effect that it might have on something like negative ion load in the body, which is why I'm a huge fan of the grounded floors earthing grounding going outside barefoot but i i don't think that there is a biological free cost to having a radio frequency device in your pocket as some bone scan data suggests might be an issue and sperm data uh or just sitting next to a somebody broke down isn't there a uh in the phone itself in the iphone itself somebody had covered this that it literally tells you you're supposed to keep it a certain distance you are yeah from yourself.

2:32:50That sounds like a great fucking disclaimer. I think the best metric though, like is, is if you eliminate that stuff. And of course the single most important place to do it is your bedroom where your nervous system has a chance to arguably repair and recover for like eight hours for a 24 hour cycle. But as many places in the home as you can down regulate exposure to that stuff, I think it's a good idea. It's right in the category with light water and air. Are you worried about eight sleep then? I do not use an eight sleep for those reasons. um i i fucking i'm not gonna piss them off because i know they're are they a sponsor yeah okay i mean you can say whatever you want i i use a different one that that still cools my bed but that tests lower with an emf meter right so but okay so i think emf meter yeah yeah at least from what i know although i prefer for my ghostbuster talking to a bunch of talking to a bunch of friends they faraday cage the cooling tower of their eight sleep you can do that um And that's where most of the, if you do the actual test, according to them.

2:33:46There's much less on the pad than on the controlling device itself. So, yeah. So, they just Faraday cage that off. You could totally tinfoil at it. Can you give a layman's explanation? Because a lot of people, ionizing, non-ionizing, radiation, Bluetooth, I see that you're always with wired headphones, stuff like that. What's the 30 ,000-foot view of the most defensible science behind EMF's exposure to electrical frequencies and stuff like that? Class three Bluetooth signals, which defines most of what we're using on our heads and our ears, etc. Very little data showing that there's any deleterious effect at all.

2:34:20So you're talking - That is more like a, I'm not sure, so I'm going to play it safe type of strategy for me to be using wired headphones. Cool. It's your Pascal's wager, your AirPods wager. Exactly. It's a Pascal. It's a technological Pascal wager. Um, for wifi, for 5g, for 4g, the, the biggest response to it from a, from, from an electrochemical balance in the cell standpoint is proximity to the source, right? So the farther you can be from a wifi router, for example, in your home or your office, the better like your neighbor's wifi signals. If you've got your home totally tricked out and all your Faraday paint and cages or whatever is not that big of an issue because they're so far away but if you're sleeping with your head whatever one to two feet on the other side of the wall from the wi-fi router that's where there's a bigger issue um the there are other things people worry about electric cars teslas are actually designed to be pretty low emf there is a signal that exceeds the safety limit if you are in the back seat right next to the battery so if you like have a kid in the back Tesla.

2:35:28Most of the rest of it is safe. And I have a video online where I went through and tested everything in the Tesla. But if you were going to shield anything, it'd be the actual backseat. And then the other major sources in the home would be appliances, dryer, washer, microwave only while it's running, like if you were right next to when it's running. So basically keeping those appliances as far away as possible from the bedroom or anywhere where you're at for an extended period of time. Basically, don't put your laptop on the washer, which I know you do, and work from that during the day. Major appliances.

2:36:04And then the phone would just basically also be A, proximity to the body, and B, the bar signal. The lower the bar signal, the higher radio frequency output in order to be searching for a signal. So when the plane is about to land and 100 people on the plane all turn their cell phones on when you're maybe still like, I don't know, let's say at 2 ,000 feet, and you've still got one bar, that's a pretty hazardous place to be because you all of a sudden have like 100 devices pushing out a ton of radio frequency because they're all searching for a signal at the same time. So that's where you pull on your tinfoil hat is right when the plane's about to land.

2:36:42That's crazy. Or your EMF blocking suit. My girlfriend literally got me the tinfoil hat. I have an actual EMF blocking suit. I wear one for international flights. I wear a full seat. She got me the cap. and she's like, put this on the plane. When I used to travel with my sons, I have EMF blocking glasses for my sons for long haul flights. What? Just for the radiation for long haul flights. It's interesting. I actually got this. This is for you to wear today. Hey, I love it. Make autism great again. Hey. Perfect. This is what I'm going to put on every time I land. Does it block EMF? Oh, that's so good.

2:37:19I hope so. Dude, I'm fucking blown away by the Tesla thing by sitting in the back seat. I'm going to guess. Lots of the batteries. But for every problem, there's going to be a solution. So someone is now going to make a child seat, presumably, which has... Wow, I never thought about that. Yeah, so I have called four body shops and so far found none. The Tesla dealership, for warranty reasons, won't do it, who will actually install the shielding material in the back seat. So I have just like a giant piece of fabric from Brian at Shielded Healing that's just like sitting in the back of the Tesla right now.

2:37:49But I haven't actually been able to find anyone who's going to pull the seat out and install it properly between the back seat and the battery. Did you test it? So there's a great business model out there for someone out there somewhere to do low EMF shielding for the back seat on the Tesla. Yeah, have you tested it with a blanket? Does it make a meaningful difference? Oh, yeah. When you put the shielding material, the meter drops down. It's ugly to just have a giant piece of shielding material just like propped in the back seat. Why is the Tesla ugly anyway? So I need to get it installed or like underneath the upholstery or what i found fascinating it was so funny i was watching your documentary congratulations on the new documentary by the way well thanks um i was watching this last night and i was looking at by the way he was disappointed that they didn't actually show the penis injection scene i was only there for the penis yeah reliably i only arrive at events me and zach efron at the back of the cinema just like i'm waiting for the penis like show me the fucking penis um one of the things that i noticed was the most ben greenfield thing in the world is to design the perfect house to ensure there's no emfs everything's local area networked and copper wiring and all the rest of it living room fucking tons of boxes of new shit that he just had sent to his house tons and tons of cardboard boxes and i was like that's a man who gets lots of packages i have a soft spot in my heart for a man that receives a lot of packages it's the worst when you try i literally have an assistant who sits at home and opens packages and sends me photos to an asana project when i'm traveling so that everything can be unboxed and put away when i get home because one of my greatest sources of stress when I travel is getting home to all of the the worst the boxes worst so I've I enjoyed I enjoyed seeing the boxes but yeah a lot of boxes lots of lots lots of cool free things um on the air quality thing I think that is CO2 is something that I think people are going to pay a lot of attention to but that'll be further down the line before that it's going to be humidity and mold like just fucking huge wouldn't it be amazing if we had small travel mold detectors

2:39:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:that you could put on your backpack air quality detectors yeah well the problem or like a canary that you could train for mold yeah for mold it's just drop dead yeah here uh one of the problems that you have and i only found this out from speaking to mike from jasper is that you can't have an air purifier or he calls it a scrubber, an air scrubber, but different. I know your dad was huge into this stuff, right? My dad was water filtration. You can't have the sensor be in the scrubber because the turnover of air is too high. So you always have to have two separate because it's basically pulling air through the sensor itself.

2:40:28So you can't have that. You need to have a sensor that's over one side, that's looking at CO2, that's looking at mold particles, and then you need to have this. But that means that you now have two units. One thing that's detecting, one thing that's working. Yeah, you need the detector and the scrubber. And if you could have the perfect setup at home and you weren't renting it, you could just put in your own HEPA filtration system, you would have a filter, you would have a scrubber. So the filter, you see the MERV rating, which is just the particular rating. That's the actual filter that's catching stuff that you pull out and change every six months or whatever in your home.

2:41:02Then you have the scrubber, which keeps the actual mold from building up in the ducts themselves. And a lot of times that's using like UV or ozone or something like that. And then a recirculator that's pulling in fresh air from the outdoors so you're not just filtering stale air. And also so you're getting CO2 fixed as well. So an ideal scenario, yeah, you're scrubbing, you're recirculating, and you're filtering all three. Like that's the best setup.

2:41:23Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So it's three different units. It's basically three different technologies being used for something like central HEPA filtering. What should happen, and I think this is where the guys from Jasper, Mike's going to end up doing it, is all of this can be fixed if you just put it into AC. Like if you just go after the AC unit, you don't need to do any of the additional standalone unit thing. The reason that Jasper exists at the moment is that there isn't enough cleaning going on through the AC. And if you're in an apartment block or if you've got a house trying to retrofit that, you're going to have to bodge it together like some Ben Greenfield Tesla car.

2:41:58like it's not it's it's too much to do so you're having to scrub inside of a room because the air that's coming in from the ac even with a dehumidifier the best that you can get at the moment is tough i mean what did you do for your ac did you have to bodge it together or did you find something that was ready made uh we went with a local company called laser and they do scrubber they do uh filter and they do recirculation are they able to do it at the particular level that's needed to get rid of mold though yeah like they're using a merv filter that will basically catch anything that's like PM 2.5, which is, I think it's PM 2.5 to PM 10 are the main sizes that you need to get concerned about.

2:42:34But I still, because of wildfire season and also in the kitchen where the rating for the height of the hood over the stove for the actual filtration system above the stove when you're cooking is too high to actually catch everything that gets released when you're cooking. So even if you have a filter in the kitchen, you're getting a massive amount of pm 2.5 every time you cook so i have a standalone hepa air filter in the kitchen and then a bunch in other rooms that i pull out when it's like wildfire season or there's a bunch of smoke there are uh eight jasper filters back in our airbnb right now here in austin running in every room so we have because to me it's worth it to filter then to as much as i travel get exposed in an Airbnb or hotel room and be dealing with mold for the next two years.

2:43:24Like it's way better to just nip it.

2:43:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But see, what you said is important is when you're exposed, you're exposed over a period of time. It takes a long time to get rid of it. Yeah. So you might as well. Yeah. And it's expensive. You work a lot with mold. Obviously, it's been a huge part of my life over the last couple of years. How brief of an exposure do you need in order to cause an effect? Like is one night six months of detox? Is there any equation that's been coming for this? I think, well, part of it. So yes, I do and treat mold and environmental toxins in our medical practice. And I will tell you, I think it comes down in part to genetics.

2:44:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Some people are affected. Some people are not. Obviously, there's no, it's not like, okay, so you have low testosterone for six months. Here's going to be your subsequent effects. But an exposure of even a week can... A week's better though. But you at least just allayed Chris's fears about his one night stand with the moldy woman. So we've been a week. Have you gotten sick with mold? You must have. I've gotten pretty lucky. I haven't. You haven't. Have you done your genomic testing to work out whether you've got the different polymorphisms that your detox pathways for Lyme and for mold and stuff?

2:44:36I have a little bit of impaired glutathione detoxification pathways. You use some glutathione. I've never had significant mold exposure. But knock on wood, I've gotten lucky. I mean, me and another guy lived in the same house. me and Zach, best friend. Major, yeah. And one of us, him, fine, me, same fucking house, dude. Yeah. And he was ripping vapes, going to bed at three in the morning, playing gigs. Here's me like getting up, sunlight in the eyes, fucking grounding, listening to Ben and Cuban and you. And it wrecked me. Yeah. So it really is if you just have rolled the genetic dice and then you kind of hit the equivalent of the inverse jackpot living in an environment, like it's a real - with the freaking like viking nephilim genes it's just it's just completely untouched by it but yeah i think the mold thing is going to be already is sort of picking up speed but um ariana thacker from the mold co she rules shoemaker protocol all of that stuff i think is going to be massive like teaching people about binders and sauna and exposure and tgf beta mold co is kind of like systematized everything to where they have like the testing the solutions everything on It's a one-stop shop, which is really cool.

2:45:45Really cool slash possibly the Fox Guardian, the Hen House, but I still think it's a good idea. How so? Well, if they're testing and then supplying the solutions based on the test results. So technically it's a conflict. You're incentivized to get the test. Potential, but I've gone through the website and seen what they're doing, and I think that they're doing a good service. I mean, you need to be a real scumbag to be falsifying people's tests so you can then get them. I would hope not. The therapeutics, no. So yeah, what's cool is all of the problems that we think are sort of in the future, there's already solutions or proto solutions that already exist.

2:46:20So for people that have got systemic issues, hormones, health, optimizing, like you guys and similar to you guys exist. For the light problems, we've got people thinking about LEDs. For mold, we've got the mold cove. For blood testing and mass, we've got function. For air quality, we've got jet water. you know there's already aqua truth of reverse osmosis like there's already the beginnings of solutions it's just a case of kind of telling people about it that makes me feel more confident because i guess like 15 years ago all of these problems still existed but there wasn't even the nascent version of some company that could maybe fix it best resource i ever found and i really wanted to interview the author on my podcast and hopefully she doesn't hear this horrible interview because she was a little boring and didn't do a great job explaining, but the book was fantastic.

2:47:08It was called Prescription for a Healthy Home, and it's like everything. It's carpets, appliance, it's roofing, it's painting. I gave it to the people building my home. I bought it for the architect and the building team because I wanted them to read it. It was so thorough as far as everything that it went into for building materials from the ground up or outfitting an existing condo or apartment or somewhere that you're not building from scratch. excellent guide. And it's like, I think it was published two years ago, maybe. So pretty relevant. Unreal. Final thing that I love, which I think will pick up speed, will be proper genetic testing.

2:47:46So IntelliX DNA is who you guys use that Lisa's put me through. A little bit expensive. You need a healthcare practitioner, provider, whatever, to get in between you. I know that Function are about to release their own version at some point later this year, which will democratize that. I'm sure you guys have all got your own versions of this too. but it's the only test you only ever need to do once that's true yeah it's so until crisper gene editing really takes off well you got the follow satin thing when we were in roatown together yeah how did that work did you i gained muscle at a more rapid rate than i would have expected without changing uh protein calorie intake or my weight training protocol uh around 10 pounds in three months uh it's not permanent you would need to repeat it i think every one to one and a half years and uh unfortunately uh at the time i was under the impression it was reversible in case shit hit the fan and something went wrong it's not actually reversible i thought it was reversible i thought you just took a tablet yeah uh no that's the issue is that uh it is not um and the company is now readily admitting that it's not uh and doctors were supposed to reach out to their patients and tell them that oops it's not um so that's the only issue now is it's just like well if you're going to get your genes edited it'd be nice to know that if something goes wrong you could reverse it yeah yeah well i mean we did go to a small island off the coast of honduras which is specifically a network state that doesn't have any oversight of basically any nation so that you could get this experimental gene therapy and now you're like wow they didn't The understanding that I was taught from that technology is it's not editing a gene, it's turning on a pre-existing gene.

2:49:31You are correct. It's not a CRISPR gene editing. And then it'll turn back off over time. It's basically like up-regulating or down-regulating a gene. So, yeah, like joking aside, the only reason that you'd have to do a genetic test twice in a lifetime is if you are actually using CRISPR gene editing. Yeah, that'd be pretty sick. Guys, you all rule. I appreciate you. Why should people go to check out everything? We've told them so many interesting things. My company is ways2well.com, the number two. Yeah. Yeah.

2:49:59Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Go to my website, drgabriellion.com, all of the channels, the podcast. These two are getting PhDs to come on. Let's do it. Let's go. And yeah, Strong Medical with Lifespan MD, if you want to be my patient. I don't do rectal exams, so. There's not a lot of Ben Greenfields out there, so just Google. It's good. Thank you. I appreciate you all. You all rule. Thank you for keeping everyone alive. Goodbye, my beauties. Thank you, man. Yes. That fucking... Woo-hoo. That was fun. So much fun. Saying how you feel out loud is terrifying, but that's what Hinge's new free audiobook, No Ordinary Love, is all about.

2:50:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's a collection of real love stories about five couples that met on Hinge. The stories are written and read by Tembi Dinton Hurst, Nicola Dynan, Curtis Garner, Raven Smith, and Rufy Thorpe. I, Hunter Harris, wrote and read the foreword. The audiobook's out now. Give it a listen.