In short
Couples therapist Stan Tatkin explains “love by design” for long-term relationships, arguing that feelings aren’t enough because adult romantic attachment is an evolutionarily survival-based system with long threat memory. He claims couples must create shared purpose, explicit agreements/social contracts, and “guardrails” to prevent threat responses, plus fast, unqualified repair (especially apologies) to stop memory from escalating.
Guest backgrounds
Stan Tatkin is a couples therapist and attachment-focused clinician/researcher (referred to as “Stan Tatkin” throughout). The host is Chris Williamson, who interviews him.
Key claims
Romantic attachment is “existential glue” that makes breakups hard and can turn partners into perceived predators under stress. Memory is unreliable but sticky; repeated ruptures without quick repair sensitize people to future cues. Under stress, the brain’s threat systems override executive thinking, increasing misinterpretation. Distance (phone/text) worsens regulation because couples rely on face-to-face visual cues.
Notable examples
“Wedding from hell” couples can have a great marriage; “good wedding” couples can later struggle—because present state reshapes memory. He cites family estrangement, lawsuits, and even historical duels as outcomes of un-repaired harm. He also warns against relationship “texting” for emotional conversations.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Love and Relationships
0:30 to 6:00
Explore the concept of love as a designed choice rather than mere emotion.
“If I was to try and summarize your worldview on relationships, allow me to step into your skin and wear it for a second.”
The Importance of Purpose in Relationships
6:00 to 8:30
Discover why a shared purpose is crucial for sustaining long-term relationships.
“Issue two is we have to understand the forces that push us around, namely our survival instinct, because it's always on.”
Planning for Relationship Challenges
8:30 to 11:40
Learn how to predict and prepare for potential issues in relationships.
“They just walk into the same situations live without being prepared.”
The Role of Agreements in Relationships
11:40 to 14:01
Understand how agreements and social contracts help maintain harmony in couples.
“We tend to pick at each other's differences.”
Understanding Human Nature in Relationships
14:01 to 15:17
Explore the selfish tendencies of humans and the need for rules in relationships.
“If we can get away with something, we will.”
Prioritizing Relationships Over Self
15:23 to 19:00
Discuss the importance of prioritizing each other in relationships and the impact on family dynamics.
“else at all times you don't have to you could agree that our sales come first then you'd have to describe that to each other define that what does that really mean same with a relationship What does it mean?”
The Role of Memory in Relationships
19:00 to 21:26
Examine how memory affects relationship dynamics and the importance of quick repairs.
“And therein lies the problem with the human condition, why we're better at war.”
The Importance of Apologies
21:26 to 23:10
Learn how genuine apologies can preserve relationships and counteract negative memories.
“Because that in the real world is the only thing that will relax another person.”
Navigating Human Nature and Relationships
23:10 to 26:48
Understand the complexities of human nature and the necessity of governance in relationships.
“You cannot walk around and destroy the atmosphere here for everybody who's in the house.”
Understanding Memory and Relationship Dynamics
28:00 to 32:56
Learn how our brain processes memories in relationships and the impact of past experiences on present interactions.
“That's timeline.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout.”
Show all 17 chapters
The Cycle of Resentment and Justice in Relationships
32:56 to 40:10
Explore how unresolved issues and perceptions of injustice can lead to resentment and affect relationship longevity.
“and relationships start to look very deranged from both the outside and the inside?”
The Challenges of Long-Distance Communication
40:10 to 42:01
Discover how distance affects communication in relationships and the difficulties it introduces in conflict resolution.
“It feels like prevention is significantly better than an attempt at repair.”
The Challenges of Modern Communication in Relationships
42:01 to 46:40
Learn how distance and technology complicate relationship communication and conflict resolution.
“If you're arguing about memory, you're engaged in something where you're both wrong.”
Understanding Relationship Compatibility
47:40 to 55:10
Explore the concept of compatibility in relationships and how it affects conflict.
“I want us to, you know, this is a team sport, says I.”
The Complexity of Attachment and Addiction in Relationships
55:11 to 56:04
Delve into the dynamics of attachment, addiction, and emotional dependency in relationships.
“It's interesting with the I can't quit you thing.”
Understanding Relationship Addictions
56:04 to 1:02:00
Explore how relationships can become addictive and the implications of impulsive behaviors.
“you're attached to, but that also can get hijacked to the point where you just continue to grit your teeth.”
Key Principles for Healthy Relationships
1:02:50 to 1:07:54
Learn essential principles for creating secure and functioning relationships.
“Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all times.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hello friends, I'm bringing a brand new live show across the UK and Ireland this October. It's stories, psychology, audience Q &As and whatever happens when thousands of overthinkers voluntarily leave the house and end up in the same room together. I'd love to see you there. The last two are completely sold out, so make sure that you snag tickets now using the link in the description or heading to chriswilliamson.live. Dublin's already sold out, loads of venues are limited, tickets are very limited, so get yours now. chriswilliamson.live. You're great. Your work is fantastic. You rule. Thank you.
0:32If I was to try and summarize your worldview on relationships, allow me to step into your skin and wear it for a second. I would summarize it as love by design, not desire. Is that a fair, like it's thought not felt as relationships, that design versus desire thing? How far away am I? I think I prefer earned love, earned love on a daily basis, by knowing how to hack the brain, the neuroendocrine system, which we can talk about,
1:08by designing the relationship to protect feelings, to enhance feelings, to allow two different people under stress to maintain a collaborative and cooperative attitude. that is a hard get because that that takes a certain amount of planning predicting and planning and preparing what could go wrong between human beings why are romantic attachment relationships neurochemically so hard to navigate well they're hard because in the attachment world if you uh if you understand or buy the idea of a primary attachment relationship. A primary attachment relationship is one that tends to be dyadic with human primates.
2:01We pair bond in herds. And the romantic adult primary attachment relationship is most like the earliest one, which is predicated on survival. so uh the attachment system is actually an existential uh you know glue that holds us together it's the i can't quit you biology we confuse it for love and because it goes back to the earliest you know uh survival relationship uh that's why breaking up also is hard to do that's why it has a very long memory because it reminds us of that earliest dependency relationship whereas other relationships tend to not do that. So we're reliving our childhoods in a way.
2:47We're reliving our relationships, how we felt with all of these important originals that we were around in this relationship that we call a romantic adult relationship, but it is 12 and before. That is generally how I will think of it, is that we have the parents in our heads that we had around 12 and before that time, even if our parents, and they do, changed a great deal for the better or for the worse, we still draw upon that earliest, because that's the root of our experience through thousands upon thousands of interactions starting from infancy, post-gradual. So powerful. Is love enough to maintain a relationship?
3:39Absolutely not.
3:45no feeling is uh because feelings come and go and besides uh who knows what your definition of love is it may be very different than mine and even if i were to describe my definition of love in action my expectations of love may be quite different than what i say So there you already have a problem. But if you're basing your life on emotion, which is like a roller coaster, then your life is like a roller coaster. So I think the smartest and the wisest and the way that it's always worked in terms of long-term relationships between individuals of equal power, adults, is that you have to have first a shared purpose, a reason for being in this relationship, not based on feelings, and a vision of where are we headed, what's the end point, are we ride or die, is it all the way till, you know, I'm wiping your butt, you're wiping my butt in old age, you know, where are we headed and why, what's the point of us, who or what do we serve.
4:54Only purpose that's based on a selfish reason will carry the day, because we're too unreliable as a species. Our species is notably historically moody and fickle and impulsive and unpredictable, sometimes opportunistic, warlike, xenophobic, easily influenced by groups and other people. So we're not great over the long run in unions. therefore we have to account for going through time together and that would be going through some changes so we need an invention we need a design from the ground up which is a made up thing right all relationships are made up that would sustain us in the long run and would account for all of that will room necessary as we change through time right otherwise uh we're gonna you know, we're not going to make it somehow.
5:59That's issue one. Issue two is we have to understand the forces that push us around, namely our survival instinct, because it's always on. And because this relationship is unlike any other on the planet because of its memory, most like that earliest one, based on survival, it has a long memory and we tend to be proxies for everybody who came before, right? We tend to, it's a very projective system. The chances of us accruing threat memory by getting things wrong based on memory and appraisal is 100%. And so if we're not really good at knowing and understanding how to minimize threat and stay collaborative under the most stress and pressure, we're going to accrue threat memory, which is a biological matter and eventually takes people down.
6:58So you're saying we need to respect the biology by, in advance, having structures in place and principles that keep guardrails in so that we're not relying on the ebbs and flows of how we feel? Like any other union of any kind that's professional of any kind, We plan on our devils, not our angels, right? Couples plan on their angels. That's a big mistake. What does that mean? Devils we are if the opportunity arises, if we're under enough load-bearing, if we're in enough pain or enough pressure, enough stress. Again, emotions. If I'm going to behave according to how I feel, which is pretty much everybody on the planet most, then it stands to reason that we're going to have a hard time getting along.
7:52right? And so this just has to do with predicting what could go wrong and planning for it ahead of time instead of just falling into it, which is what couples always do, right? Couples don't predict, plan, and prepare for what could go wrong based on what has gone wrong. Nobody else does that. Medicine, we do postmortems, right? Let's not kill the patient again. But couples don't do that. They just repeat, repeat. We predict what could go wrong in the police force, in military, in medicine, in science, in business. Couples don't do that. They just walk into the same situations live without being prepared.
8:36We would never get involved with a group of people if we didn't know what the culture was and how are we going to be protected from each other because in order of animals, couples don't have any governance, any way of protecting each other from each other because they don't set it up. So couples are the only system, only voluntary system, a free, fair, you know, volunteer system of individuals coming together of equal power and authority, at least on the face of it, should be on based on terms and conditions that do not have any of this ever. And that is why they're predicted not to last very long.
9:20Or if they do, one or both people are not going to be happy. We're not going to feel safe and secure. Because there's no social contract system of making agreements based on purpose, based on what is good. So say you both, we both, right? What is best, so say we both. Or what, you know, is right. Those are the three. And without that, it's going to be the wild ones. Does that mean that discussing non-negotiables and practical things in advance and as early as possible is actually the romantic thing to do? You don't put that into the, hey, honey, let's go out to dinner and have a nice romantic dinner and everything.
10:04And let's talk about if we have any deal breakers. You could, I guess. It's not, you know, it's dual purpose. but a deal breaker is should be known ahead of time um i want a baby i have to have a baby you hate kids and let's get married so that is what people do and that's like not smart because that can't work i want monogamy and you want polyamory well neither of us are wrong we have a right to want what we want and get what we want but we can't do business together because that's going to cause a lot of trouble. So those are deal breakers, big ticket items that couldn't work because we're pointing in two different directions.
10:49Having a specific shared purpose and vision is still important outside of deal breakers, I have to imagine. So if you look at the human condition and how people have sustained in groups, groups don't stay together very long or they don't get along with each other very well if they don't have a shared purpose for being together you and i are going to start a band that's our purpose we want to start a band we want to what is our goal our vision uh we want to get a record deal at least initially so if we didn't have that we wouldn't have reason to hang together very much and we would probably not get along because we tend to pick at each other if we don't have a shared purpose, right?
11:36That's if we're, you know, spending a lot of time together and a shared reason for doing this. Otherwise, we tend to otherize. We tend to pick at each other's differences. We don't look naturally to where we agree and where we are the same. People who are consensus makers have to do that. But at the average Joe, because of energy conservation, meaning, you know, we're meant to do the least amount necessary biologically, all living things, we're lazy and we won't do things that we should do because we don't think we have to. So this whole idea of, you know, we're in it to win it, you know, we're a survival team, we want to win, we want to make money, we want to succeed, we want to survive.
12:27All of these things are essential for keeping things on keeping people on the path together and not paying attention so much to their differences. Otherwise, we fight. And when it happens in a country such as ours, that's when we see civil war or tribalization or a massive amount of splintering, right? Because there's no more centralized sense of purpose that holds us together that's believable and a vision, an American dream, right? And so things break down. So if that is true with all systems, large and small, it goes to follow that a couple would be no different. If they have no shared reason for being at any given time, they're going to fight or they'll drift because that's what holds us together, yeah.
13:16What's the importance of agreements? That's all we've got to keep us from being harmful to each other. All we have is our PACs. or agreements or social contracts. Civilizations predicated on social contracts. The first laws of religion, even though it was a social contract with God, an Old Testament God that would reign in your bedroom 40 days, 40 nights if you disobeyed, that was a powerful thing to get people to start to behave. It was the first way of getting people to stop harming each other with the Ten Commandments. right? So everything is predicated on agreements. Otherwise, we go to war.
13:58We do harm. You know, like I said, we're selfish, self-centered, opportunistic animals. If we can get away with something, we will. That's in our DNA. Only norms and laws and principles and rules keep us from doing that and allow us to stay together in safety and harmony. Otherwise, we wouldn't. No difference with a couple. So they have to come up with this as well. In other news, have you ever noticed how some websites make it ridiculously easy to buy while some feel infinitely harder? Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles to the local store. Aren't you younger than me? Yeah, but my dad got a DUI.
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15:39In practical purposes. If this happens, what would we do? If that happens, what would we do? Are there any exceptions to this? What could go wrong with this idea of putting ourselves first? What happens if this relationship crashes and burns? We put ourselves first. What does that do for our kids? What does that do for our own health? So it doesn't make sense. Maybe we put religion first. That's fine. But you'd have to think think it through because you're planning your life because your lives depend on this. How you're going to rule, how you're going to govern, what decisions you're going to make is going to be predicated on what is the highest priority, right?
16:22Otherwise, you're not a team. It'll be chaos when load-bearing hits. You're going to be unprepared. So it's all practical. It's all tactical. It's not about emotion it's about what would be the best thing and what what one thing must be protected at all costs in order for everything else to thrive that's how to think of it right but it has to be defined has to be done judiciously because again it's no small thing your happiness safety and security everything's predicated on your design what's the threat response based on memory? Well, memory is a problem. We're memory animus. Everything we do is by memory.
17:07Most of our day is memory run. It's automatic. We're not thinking. We're not using energy expending areas of the brain that use critical thinking. We save that for novelty. We save that for our work. We save that for other things. But so we're just walking through the day doing things automatically more flexibly based on memory. Because of our survival instinct, negative memory, negative experience is favored in memory because of we have to remember where we're hurt because of danger. Survival is at the top of our subcortical drive, right? And it does not equivocate. It does not differentiate.
17:54you hurt me if you didn't fix it right away and you do it again, then I'm going to predict you're going to do it again and again and again, which you will feel attacked by. But that is me protecting myself. I'm using pattern recognition to sweep the environment for cues. And every time you repeat something, we repeat something that's threatening, the array of threat cues that I'm looking for increase. Naturally, it makes sense. It doesn't know the difference between you holding a gun on me and you looking askance that I view as a judgment, as an attack, as a criticism, right? And so this becomes problematic if we're not careful, which is why there are ways to prevent this from taking hold because it does have a snowball effect.
18:46It sounds like it sensitizes your system over time. Yeah, it has to because we have to survive. This part of our brain is lightning fast. I see it, I shoot it. And that makes sense. If your life depends on making a quick decision and an action that protects you from a danger, it makes sense that this can be a problem in relationships because I will react very quickly based on my own narrative, history, memory, and I will likely be wrong, and you will likely feel threatened by my assuming, which you will then protect yourself and behave in a way that's threatening in return. And therein lies the problem with the human condition, why we're better at war.
19:39We're just not great at relationships over the long run. So there are ways to remedy this if you know what you're up against. One is quick repair. Quick repair is a way to keep memory from going into long-term memory where it's the gift that keeps on giving. And sadly, most people don't fix things quickly. They don't fix things. I'm sorry, you're right, that was stupid. I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry. I love you. And then move on. Right. They delay it. They don't do it. They apologize in the wrong way. And so the beat goes on. And this is why families lose their kids, estrangement. That's why people get sued.
20:25That's why in the old days people, you know, challenged each other to a duel to the death. You know, because we remember harm done. We don't forget it. The person who harms us does. But because of the adrenaline that's created, when we feel misunderstood, hurt, judged, something's unfair, unjust, that creates a lot of juice to go into long-term memory unless you fix it right away, which case it doesn't. so that's one of the main reasons to grow up and do what we invented uh the reason we invented apologies uh immense was to hold on to our relationships and if you too want to hold on to your relationship with your kid or your your spouse or your parents then you got to learn how to follow on your sword and only apologize um without equivocation without qualification explanation without any other qualifier if you know what's good for you.
21:31Because that in the real world is the only thing that will relax another person. The only thing. And I have to apologize for what you think I did, not what I think I did. I think how hard that is for us because we're so prideful. We think that we're always right. And that's not true, by the way. were hardly ever right about much. But, you know, it's our arrogance. It's our, you know, hubris to think that our communication was spot on. I heard you clearly. My memory is great. My perception is correct. Yours isn't. And none of this I can prove. None of this is true at any given time. It's all false.
22:14And yet, we'll die on that hill. We're dumb. It's so fascinating that intense negative experiences, if repaired quickly, have basically a completely different future ahead of them than ones that are left to fester. That if you're in a relationship which has regular rupture without repair, and especially without repair quickly, that makes it painful in the moment and more painful in the future and sensitizes your system to detecting this happening again, even perhaps when it's not, which means that your worldview is going to appear increasingly deranged to the other person who needs to apologize based on your interpretation, not on their projection.
23:06It's vicious. It's a really badly designed system. well it's it's not designed like i said for remember we used to die at 15 or 30 tops right we didn't live that long we would pair bond for four years and then leave and then you know mix up the gene pool that you know that satisfied the you know the natural the ways of natural laws and that nature's uh right nature didn't plan on us you know doing what we do today we're on our own uh that's why we have to invent our meaning we're not born into a world with meaning right clearly we're not born into a world where we get why we're here and how we got here and where we're going that's the whole existential dilemma right and it's the angst you know we're going to die we're alone uh we don't know uh why we're here um uh and life has no meaning right uh that's very depressing so we create meaning right same thing but meaning also involves governance how are we going to protect each other from each other that is not by nature right we we are predators we're apex predators as a matter of fact um we're nice on a when we're happy right you know but you may not want to be around us if we're unhappy we're kind of nasty unless unless there are norms you know So, sweetheart, my 14-year-old daughter, you can be angry.
24:37You cannot walk around and destroy the atmosphere here for everybody who's in the house. That's a community. You can't do it. So, stop it. Right? Only that stops that kind of behavior. No, you can't do this. I know you want to do it, but I'll show you you can't. Try. And I will show you you can't. And that gives rise to an idea that there are limits. There are boundaries. There are things you can and cannot do. But let's say I don't do that. Let's say I give in. Then you can get away with anything, right? Because there is no God. I did that. It doesn't happen naturally. You know, Lord of the Flies, you know, we're animals.
25:17And off the product line, you know, human primate isn't great. you know uh you know civilization uh you know uh over so many years of of you know building complexity socially emotionally and and and um ideals and values and and uh and and morals principles that that you know in the whole span of history of course it's a blip but in our time. It's a long period to get here, and we're still a mess. And so, again, don't be naive. You are responsible for this relationship. No one else is. You're the only ones who are going to benefit and are also going to suffer if you're not an alliance, right? If you're not working together, you can't work.
26:21If you're not able to work together as a two-person system of we and us interdependently having the same things to gain and lose, are you going to survive this life, really, with all the slings and arrows and all the things that happen and the indifference of others, which, you know, just test that out and the chips are down, people will be indifferent to your concerns. And that's just the way it is. And so not knowing that, preparing, is just simply not being aware and not being an adult and in reality. Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out there's a reason for that.
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27:47Best of all, there is a 30 day money back guarantee plus free shipping in the US plus they ship internationally. And right now you can get that$99 price with an additional 20 % off by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline.com slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's timeline.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. I've heard you say that if you leave those memories to encode in long term for too long, you can end up seeing your partner more as a predator than a lover. Yeah. The subcortical brain does not differentiate. What's happening neurochemically in the brain?
28:23Well, there's an intentional center. The salience network in the brain is what causes me to look, right? You know, I hear a sound and I look. That's a salience network that's directing me to what's most important at this moment. And there are other networks that are involved here that are fear-related and threat-related that are involved in this one network. And so I begin to hone in on your face because you repeatedly do something that reminds me of something that makes me feel small and devalue. Okay? You may not intend to do that, but your intentions aren't the matter here. I'm picking up a threat memory, a cue from your face because I'm vigilant.
29:11I now have to look for this because I've been hurt too much. You feel attacked by it, but I'm simply taking care of myself. I don't control this. It is pushing me around because I don't understand it, right? I assume that everything I'm picking up is correct. I don't check. Are you doing that thing right now. Right. I just, I just shoot first, assuming you are doing it. And that's because these areas don't have an executive function. They're not meant to have an executive function. And an executive function takes time and resources. That is why that, that, you know, when we're relaxed, we have all oars in the water.
29:57We can think, we can error correct. We can, we can think in a relativistic way and not in a dominant end way, right? I am certain. No, maybe you're right, but I'm relaxed. I can do that. As soon as my blood pressure and heart rate go up to a certain level, my brain changes. I literally don't have a capacity to do that because the executive areas demand a lot of resources to run, oxygen, glucose, and blood. That is now going to my striated muscles because I'm starting to get into fight or flight. I'm getting hyper aroused. And there's a brain change. I'm altered. I no longer care about your interests.
30:43And it takes very little, this is Robert Sapolsky's work, not just, very little glucocorticoids coursing through my veins for me not to give a damn about you. And you lose me as an audience if you're not careful. You don't even think because you haven't noticed. You've lost me as an audience. I feel unsafe, therefore talk to the hand. I care only about my interests. You get nothing. That's how sensitive the system is because I've determined I'm not safe on a subcortical level. Now, I may not know this, but you will if you pay attention. I will know when you fall out of safety because I'm watching you, if I am.
31:29And that's why, you know, in each other's care is we're psychobiologically wired in close proximity to pick up social emotional cues faster from the other person than we are from our own bodies that makes it uh that makes us primed for something called interactive regulation or co-regulation right um that's another kind of teamwork but it's more autonomic. Anyway, so it doesn't, you know, this is a very stupid part of us, but we'll thank it because we dodged a bullet. And so I have to understand that you and I have to talk to each other in a particular way. Otherwise, you'll confuse me as an adversary.
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32:23And this is what's hard about secure functioning. The formula really is, I have to take care of myself and you at the same time under stress, or you will confuse me for an adversary and will compel you to then take care of yourself only. Now we're one person systems. We're no longer in a team sport. We're in a solo sport. Does this explain how... Everybody. There are no exceptions to this, by the way, that all people. Does this explain how resentment accumulates in relationships and relationships start to look very deranged from both the outside and the inside? One of the greatest causes of anger, sustained anger, is injustice, right?
33:11The other is helplessness. Um, uh, uh, and you know, uh, right. And so any, any system that's too unfair, too unjust, uh, and too insensitive can't last because it's unfair unless it's an employer, you know, asymmetric relationship where I have to suck it up because I want the job and I need the money. But in a, in a equal system, that's voluntary, that's voluntary. If it's not fair and just, and I'm getting the short end of the stick, you should keep your eyes open at night because that never ends well in the human field, right? And so insecure functioning is too unfair. It's good to be king.
33:56And I get things at your cost, not realizing that we're tied together psychobiologically. Anything I do to you is going to happen to me. There's no decoupling that Unless this is an autocracy, unless I am the dictator, in which case I still better keep my eyes open at night. But, you know, then I get to do everything. And you have to do it. But that's not the reality of a free and fair union of equals in adulthood, right? The expectation is that it be fair. Whether people say that or not, it is that way. And that's universal. How much can you prune those bad memories? How much harder is it to get over that once you've accumulated them?
34:41You can't get rid of these memories, and you don't want to, because that'll happen soon enough. I'm 72 and starting to happen with names. But you don't want to get rid of those memories. The only way to change the past is to change the future. There's no other way. These neural pathways are weighted by repeats, right? We're repeating things, and that's the worst. this is the smart thing to do that we already know and couples don't do one is i will apologize forever for harm done that is the right and just thing to do in the real world that is expected i don't get a free pass in memory right by saying i don't need to apologize i did my time in prison that's not ever going to work same in couples right i will always apologize for what you feel i did No problem.
35:34But let's put something in place, you and I, to prevent either of us from doing that again. If only we did that, we'd be great. Because we're doing the same thing. We're learning from the past and we're creating a future that is different based on what we learned. Let's not do that again. Not you, not just me, either of us. Because we're human. We could both do this. So we found a place where we're vulnerable. Let's close that up as we go. But couples don't do that. They just walk right into the same thing again, rinse and repeat. And that is deadly. You do not want repetition. It creates inflammation.
36:21Once that repetition starts, it accrues. And sadly, I deal with couples that have been together, you know sometimes 12 years but you know often 30 years and they're a burden not only by having to uh look back at all the resentments where they feel compelled to litigate the past just rehearsing the same thing that nothing comes of it and besides memory sucks and they're going to fight about memory um um then and they're not watching where they're going so they're repeating um uh the other thing is that when they do try to work on the relationship now memory intrudes on the present and puts the kibosh on the future this is a big problem we're trying to solve how so how does this happen you and i have been fighting for years and and um we both complain of unfairness right and uh we neither of us trust each other now because we did that we did that years of doing business poorly now we want to write things right and we go to let's say me or anybody who's proposing let's design this thing from the ground up as we're doing this one of us is going to go that's not gonna you know you know why are you depressed because he'll never do this i already know and now i'm back because subcortically i'm being yelled at don't trust him that won't happen it's right why am i being fatalistic because i'm being warned on what has happened it doesn't it has no interest and i say it this these networks that are subcortical have no interest that we're working on something to improve it.
38:19Therefore, what is now causing us a big problem is that neither of us can forget as we're going forward. Going forward triggers the past. The past is always present. That's the problem. The past that we created. That adds a huge neurobiological layer of difficulty. Think of this. You know, as numbers grow, it gets more difficult because of memory. Israel and Palestine, they cannot get out of this loop because there are generations upon generations of memory where everybody is getting their justice, right? I want my justice, and it's to blow up your family, and now you have a reason to get your justice.
39:11And there's no getting out of that, right? Because there's too many people with too much memory and there's too many people wanting to get their justice at the cost of somebody else. Well, partners do this too. I want my justice and now I create a new one in you, right? You could put the kibosh on that, but it is hard because the very same problem is that I feel that something happened to me. There's that itch I need to scratch. I need you to pay. I need something to square this because there have been too many years of unfairness. And sometimes I just have to divorce you. So this accruing of memory is central.
39:55And if people only knew, they could prevent this because it is human nature. It's not him or her. It's all of us. This is a problem. And if you don't know about it, you're going to do it. It feels like prevention is significantly better than an attempt at repair. Yes, because you cannot erase the memory. You can only relegate those neural pathways to a dirt road because they're no longer being used. They're no longer being triggered. Nothing you're doing right now triggers that memory. But given that most people live lives of routine, you were concerned and a small amount of justification about why your partner was staying late at work with somebody that you felt uncomfortable about.
40:45You learned this lesson and you even do some of the repair. You deal with all the difficulty of going back over it. You do an open and honest, completely frank apology. but the next time that your partner stays late at work regardless of what's being done to the past the present and your predictions about the future are now being colored by what happened before right not only is the past always present but the present is changing the past as well so you and i had a great wedding um but our marriage sucks and 12 years 13 15 20 years down the line the therapist asks us how is your wedding and our report is not great contrast that with a couple who had the worst had wedding from hell people were arrested drugs were found um looted all gifts were looted all sorts of things happen this is a true story but their marriage um uh became a great marriage.
41:45They look back on it as funny, as amazing. Their present state of mind changes our memory, which is why memory is completely unreliable, folks. If you're arguing about memory, you're engaged in something where you're both wrong. Which is why it's so much better to just apologize for however your partner sees it. Yeah, you don't lose anything. You gain. You keep your marriage. You keep your relationship intact. Does distance make this harder? Obviously, we're in a modern world with a lot of people who argue, but they're not together. Maybe they fight over the phone or text message or email, whatever.
42:30What wrinkles does that add to the rupture and repair conversation? I love your questions, Chris. They're great. Here's the problem. We're face-to-face, eye-to-eye animals. We're legally blind on this side. We have to be dead on to regulate each other because we have a visual brain. Therefore, we error-correct the visual field. Everything else is messy. So if we're on the phone, we lose the visual, which means we're only using the auditory. Now, since we're visual, we're visualizing things according to our own state of mind. So if I'm angry with you, what picture of you in my head do I have at the moment?
43:10Probably not great. That colors how you sound. So my error rate in understanding and appraising you, especially if I'm under stress, all of this is about when we're under stress, which is a lot, right? We're only talking about when one of us is under stress, things are going to go wonky if we're not careful. Under stress, I'm going to hear differently because the state of mind that is triggered by this, by my feeling, by my stress, is connected to memory. And they operate in a loop. They reinforce each other. My state of mind alters my perception like a funhouse mirror. And it's stunning. What I see, what I taste, what I hear, what I feel, all of that is altered by my state.
44:07Therefore, what could go wrong here? I am at an angry state. I am talking in a way my prosody changes that is unfriendly to you. I can't see your face. You can't see my face. Maybe I was smiling. You don't know. Now we're going to fight for no reason because our error rate is sky high. And the more excited we get, the worst, the error rate goes really high, right? And it's over nothing, right? It's over, our brain thinks it's something, but it isn't. Or text, I mean, it's crazy. Never do relationship stuff or text. You send a picture of your goofy face, I love you, emoticons, what time's dinner, that's it.
44:56That's the limit, that's the upper bound of how much your relationship should be mediated through the phone yes i what did we used to do well i used to draw pictures on the cave but you know in the old days i'd write you a letter and it would take a month at least to get to you you could be sure i wrote that thinking very carefully very carefully about what i am saying it was a beautiful letter right yeah beautiful letter i didn't need spell check i had my anxiety knowing that you're going to see this letter and it was going to take about a month right i want you to get this exactly right well what do we do now we get in a lot of trouble with our texts with our work you know with uh you know add to that a little bit of ambien or a little bit of benzodiazepines or alcohol and everything and we're screwed so yeah we do not understand our limitations there are things we cannot do, and yet we expect things that are not possible.
45:59Like you and I, under stress, can talk about more than one topic without fighting. That's impossible. Or that you and I can talk about an emotional conversation while one of us is driving. That will end badly. It's not possible. You know, there are things that people don't understand that we're limited by we're smart in so many areas and we're so fucking stupid on a daily basis and it's funny except we take all of it personally and most of it isn't most of it is because we're stupid automatic reflexive memory based not thinking not paying attention um because we live in a world where our attention is constantly split now in other news if you're trying to go from joey chestnut to Joey Swole, the RP Strength app is the best place to start.
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47:18For me, following a proper evidence-based plan has made a massive difference. And if you're serious about training, it'll do the same for you too. Right now, you can get up to$50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com slash modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's rpstrength.com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. What does, I'm thinking about kind of how we discussed at the top this it's like a conversation about compatibility how much of relationship conflict is just based around incompatibility and not pointing in the same direction or being specific about what each of you wants to see if you're in agreement in advance compatibility in my game in my mind only is where you and i are pointing in two different directions on the big ticket items, right?
48:11I want full transparency. I want us to, you know, this is a team sport, says I. I want us to work together. I want our left hands and right hands to know the same thing. That keeps us safe. That's what I want. Best thing. And you say, not so fast. I don't, would you have a right to say, I don't think that's the best idea for me. I don't think it's really good for you, but I'll try to convince you. I think we should have our secrets i think we should have our privacy we have every right to want that now if you stick to your guns and i can't get you over to my side you can't get me over to your side in an honest way i have to really selfishly want what you want or it won't work and vice versa um we're not we're incompatible we're just we're not wrong which is incompatible um that's true incompatibility not you have a greater sex drive than I do.
49:07Not, I like tennis and you don't. That's not the kind of compatibility that's going to make a difference in life. All interests are going to change no matter what. That's not a problem, right? You can create mutual interest. But these things won't work. It's not about healthy, unhealthy, good, bad, right, or wrong. It just can't work, right uh it's a built-in fight so uh you know you can't ignore those things but the attachment system the i can't quit you biology will make us go let's get married and ignore that deal breaker it's what you've said it a couple of times uh the i can't quit you biology what is that attachment is is nature's glue it keeps us sticky it keeps us together and it feels like love because it has loving aspects to it and behaviorally could have it.
50:10But let's say you and I are, I'm abusive. I hurt you physically and mentally. That glue is likely to keep you in this relationship and you'll justify it in all sorts of ways or because you're financially dependent on them. you know justified or because your religion says this or because you're in a in a culture where divorce is looked down upon or whatever it is you'll come up with or the kids the kids will suffer that right i have all these reasons but i'm telling you the main reason is the attachment biology that is connected to survival that feels like death i'm largely unaware of it some people are acutely there, right?
50:55Depending on their attachment organization. But that isn't always their thing for most people. There are outliers, but they're different. They don't, they're different. They don't attach in the same way. And so, you know, everything in nature has a feature and a bug. Everything that's a feature is a bug. And also in personalities. Also, if somebody has massive OCD, that's a feature for a surgeon. You want your surgeon to have OCD. You want your pilot to have OCD. Your accountant to have OCD. That's great. You don't want a spouse with OCD necessarily because that's a pain in the ass. That's a bug there.
51:43So all of this isn't really good or bad. All people are disappointing. All people are a pain in the ass. all people are trouble and a burden. What you want is to create a system whereby neither of you can possibly feel unsafe or insecure by design. Neither of you will be unhappy in a relationship by design. You can do that. You can structure things this way. You can't control everything else outside of this. But home, I think, is a relationship. Tracy and I, no matter where we go, as long as we're together, I'm fine. And we've been in some really terrible places. I mean, really terrible places.
52:30That's an achievement. That home is where we are. It's going to make me want to cry because when you start to get to this place, the only thing now that's the bug is worrying that you know you can lose them you know not to you know affairs not to divorce but to death and and that's really troubling although it does make me um appreciate the moment instead of taking it for granted which is what we should all do because we're in denial about that. Your partner could die at any moment. Did you say what you needed to say? Have you really enjoyed that person? Are you really here? Or are you going to regret that you, you know?
53:22That's, again, nature is forces. Energy conservation is to do the least amount necessary and direct our attention to what we deem important and it's usually something that is not familiar. You are familiar, therefore I don't need to look at you anymore. I don't need to court you anymore. I don't need to know you anymore. I think I know you. I don't. We store a picture of our partners in our children's face and our brain for weeks and months without really looking. I didn't even notice this. That's how lazy we are. And it's not laziness. It's energy conservation. Therefore, we have to build rituals other than we would never do anything good for ourselves.
54:06We would have to, you know, build things in that are romantic every day that we would do to fall in love again with each other every day. It just doesn't happen. Behavior wags the hell of how we feel. And these are the forces we're up against. All of us. Automation. We're going to automate each other. Therefore, I think I know you. That's a dangerous proposition. I don't know you. I can never fully know you. And not only that, you've been on the planet too long, which is why we used to have pillow talk and shoot the breeze about our childhood. It's just fun talk. Now I sit with couples and they know nothing about each other.
54:50They're not curious. There's no curiosity. Curiosity is the flame. Curiosity is the dopamine. Curiosity is the strangeness that goes, you know, you're novel, even though I think you're familiar. if I look really closely, you're not as familiar as I think. Now you're interesting. But we'd have to look for the novelty in the ordinary. And we're too lazy to do that. It's interesting with the I can't quit you thing. I think a lot of people, you mentioned injustice and helplessness. Yes. And it's strange that... And fear. And fear will make us angry. Yeah. with sort of sufficiently disorganized attachment, you can fear and feel injustice and be helplessly stuck inside of a relationship with a person who is both supposedly the salve, but also the cause of all of these issues of your psychological maladies.
55:55And people will, it's another feature and bug scenario where it's a noble thing to sacrifice your needs in place of somebody that you're attached to, but that also can get hijacked to the point where you just continue to grit your teeth. As you mentioned, the couple that's been together for so long and they haven't enjoyed each other for decades and decades, and they just keep going because - They can't stop. Yeah, yeah. It's a kind of addiction. very well yeah it there is an addictive component to it i don't want to mislead your audience because it's not truly that um uh when i when i do something to feel better at the at the cost of doing the right thing in other words i feel better but i just hurt the relationship the union i do get a reward for that right uh a feel good which makes me want to do it again and again And it is, you know, it is like addiction where I'm going to grab for it because I can't hold and wait.
56:56I can't wait, right? I'm going to take it now. Even though there's downstream bad effects for me, I'm ignoring those. So in that sense, yeah, that's very much like an addiction that is impulsive and needs to grab impulsively what I need to do, despite the fact that it's self-harming. so yes but the system begins to react to itself and that's really another way to look at it as systemic the system is reacting no longer real individuals they're amplifying each other's negatives by pointing and poking their core vulnerabilities here's another unfair kind of unkind nature thing is that because we pair bond based on some kind of familiarity and recognition, we don't pair bond with strangers that are too strange, right?
57:47They have to be familiar enough. We're both likely to have the bite that fits the other person's wound. We're not those people, but we kind of play them on TV. We have the predilection, we have the ability to do those things that remind us of those relationships, which is why it's problematic. It's a memory. Now, if we didn't know better, I don't know you have this wound. I only see your defense against it, and your defense is really threatening. So I respond in a threatening way, which consolidates your vulnerability and increases your defense. and makes you certain that I'm a dangerous character.
58:33Well, you're doing the same with me. You happen to be poking me in a core vulnerable place and that I can't do anything other than react. You don't know this because the way I'm responding to you feels threatening, of course. Therefore, you are going to protect yourself from me, and therein lies the problem. We're going to make each other worse naturally because you're not paid to sit there and just think about what I'm doing. You're going to take it personally. Now, if you're a therapist, you can't do that, right? I have to sit and I have to sit with my feelings and not, you know, not jump up and act out.
59:14I have, but I regret that. But, you know, we're human. But we're paid to do otherwise, right? Your partner isn't. And therefore, we're more likely to make each other worse. because it's a misunderstanding. You can't know why I'm doing this threatening thing and you don't need to know because you're feeling threatened. So knowledge is power, understanding how the brain works, understanding how these systems work, understanding your partner inside out, being an expert on your partner, which if your survival mattered to you and you thought about it, you better know how to restore your partner back to, you know, level thinking and level performance because your life does depend on them.
1:00:01They go down, you're in the foxhole to get your debt. So you better know the animal you picked and how to work with this animal, being an animal whisperer, this one. They're not you. And you're going to need them if you are a teen. It matters if they go down, and you better know how, just the right way, to pick them back up or you're, again, what's the point? So this is an orientation and couples just not oriented towards this being a survival team. But it is, you just haven't been tested yet. It's not thrown you that curve. You're not in Bosnia during that time. You're not in Ukraine and Russia now.
1:00:51You're not in Gaza. Or, you know, right? A whole different orientation there. They know what's important. It's to protect each other, right? We don't. We're asleep. That's the denial system, because it would get in the way if we always had to plan for this. But the planning for this starts with the building blocks of reining each other in and being safe and secure and predicting and planning and preventing future problems by predicting them ahead of time. That does the same thing. You don't have to build together a bomb shelter. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that the two of you know how to build structure, how to reform this to your liking.
1:01:46You just have to know how to do it and practice it, and it has to be predicated on principles that cannot be violated. Jared, have you ever considered you might have a drinking problem? I don't consider a lot, Chris. Well, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co. last night. But they're non-alcoholic. And that's not a problem? Sorry, man. I kept chugging weight for the regret to creep in. Never happened. Didn't you end up going home with that chick with the lazy eye? I didn't seem lazy to me. See, most people, like Jared, don't actually want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write-off, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co.
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1:02:52If you could give people, couples, the most important big movers, the most important principles that they should follow to create these secure functioning relationships. That's what everybody wants, right? it it's the thing that is the most important it's going to help us steal ourselves against the woes of the world and the slings and arrows that are going to come from outside of it what are the things that people should focus on in order to do that on us on a more focused level i'm going to give you two see on focus level start now if you do nothing else uh make sure that you repair to the other person's satisfaction.
1:03:38You can see their face, relax. If they're not relaxed, you're not done yet. Repair, fix, make it right, make amends properly, immediately, or within 30 minutes. Make that a habit, make that a law, make that what must happen. Otherwise, you're going to die sooner. I guarantee you, because of the corticosteroids you produce in that stress when there's a breach. You're not doing yourself any favors. And you're setting the other person up and yourself for a long-term memory. And you're not going to want that. So fix it right away. I don't care how you do that. If you can do nothing else, you can say to each other, you know, I hate you right now, but we're okay.
1:04:25It turns out that the we're okay is sufficient to be able to sleep through the night or be able to get through your day. Because I promise you, if you don't do that, you are not at your optimum performance level. You can't be, you won't be if you're paying attention. So if you know what's good for yourself, you just settle the existential question that is there when there's a breach in relationship, when we fight? Will this relationship exist tomorrow? Are we okay? If you can just do that minimum, you're better than most. And my wife and I have a rule. We can go to bed angry, but we have to at least touch toes.
1:05:11And that's harder than you might think. But that's been practiced. And there's an immediate reward for doing the right thing when it's the hardest thing to do, and that is your self-esteem goes right up because you know you did the hardest thing, the right thing when it was the hardest thing to do. We're already doing the easiest things. That's what we're already doing, but that's not a good life. A purpose-centered life is decided ahead of time that this is right, best, or good, so say us both, and we're going to plan to do this for when we actually do not feel like doing it at all. Even when I hate you, I still do this beautiful thing.
1:05:56Even when I hate you, I still don't do this destructive thing, right? That's a good life. That's the only thing that's ever been a good life. That is reliable. That earns love. That earns respect. As daily, we're proving to each other. We stick to our principles. We show each other when we fail. We fall on our swords, beg for forgiveness, and make it right. Simple. and this the other thing is design your relationship start with who are you shared power shared authority something other than that you've got to be explicit and you got to think ahead yeah i'd like you to be in charge i like it right okay remember that uh if uh if he's in charge you don't get the final say on anything you understand that right unless you build that in somehow, right?
1:06:46And so you just have to be adult and a grown-up because your individual lives are now your own, not your parents. And as a couple, you're on your own. You're the leaders here. There is nobody else. No therapist, right? I'm not going to define your relationship. You have to. It's your gig. You can have it any way you want. And believe me, people have some very strange and novel arrangements, right? Fine. They're great because they fully agree. They've worked it out. No problem. But it's all explicit. It's never implied, right? Because if it's implied, I'm going to abuse that reality, right? It has to be explicit and agreed upon like a blood oath because this really is about our lives depend on adhering to this.
1:07:47We have to drink the Kool-Aid and buy into it because we're expected to come through when we at least want to and that's going to happen for sure. Awesome. Stan Tatkin, ladies and gentlemen. Stan, I think you're brilliant. I think your work rules. Where should people go to check out everything you do? All right. The PACT Institute is a place to go to T-H-E-P-A-C-T institute.com. If you're a couple, there's a couple area that is devoted to you, workshops and retreats, materials. And then if you're a clinician, that's how this started. We do trainings all over the world and you can find that information there as well.
1:08:27Oh, and there's a new product called the Win-Win Couple. The first time we've done a filming on how to work together collaboratively under stress. And that video is now available on the website. They go to the PAC site. Heck yeah. Stan, I appreciate you. Until next time. Chris, you're terrific. I wish every interviewer is like you. That's what I wanted to hear. All right. Thank you. Fall is the perfect time to refresh and reorganize your space. At the Home Depot, find power tools and tool sets starting at$50. to help tackle DIY projects, home updates, and more. Whether you're drilling brackets to support new shelving or sharpening your hedge trimmer blade with an angle grinder, The Home Depot has the tools you need to check projects off your list.
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From the publisher
Dr Stan Tatkin is a psychologist, couples therapist, researcher and author.
How can couples effectively navigate and repair emotional wounds? While many believe it’s best to sleep on a conflict, could repairing the rupture quickly actually be healthier? What other habits help a relationship not only survive conflict, but flourish?
Expect to learn why romantic attachment relationships are neurochemically the hardest ones to navigate, if love is enough to maintain a relationship, what the most important agreements couples should make are, why it’s important to have the ability to repair disagreements quickly, why resentment tends to accumulate in relationships, if we learn to truly love ourselves even if no one else ever truly has and much more…
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