How TikTok Hijacked The Future Of Music - Nik Nocturnal - #1095

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38:10If you don't like it, just send it back. Plus, they ship internationally. And right now, you can get 10 % off everything site-wide by going to the link in the description below or heading to gym.sh slash modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom10 at checkout. That's gym.sh slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom10 at checkout. Does that not mean then, if that's the case, would that not suggest that vocals, lyrics, um the kind of things that are most front and center the the songwriting and the lyrics should be the biggest differentiator that people still have now is that not the case i don't i mean it could be but also i and this is way out of my realm of understanding you know i that would probably tend more to like understanding human psychology more because a lot of the lyrics particularly in metal too are very you know like damn shit sucks you know and like why does it life's hard and i wish it wasn't and i'm alone but maybe there's a bit of hope but there's probably yeah or and i mean or telling stories right which i mean then that's that probably takes more of a history degree again than my dumb ass on the internet figuring that out of like understanding like i'm sure in history stories have been retold and retold in different ways and new masks of it you know what i mean where that's why it's like yes and no uh when it comes to lyrics because i think they're still running into that same problem you can only use so many words um I mean, you can also saturate words like the undertow.

39:34My God, man, stop using that fucking word, right? Like, you know, I'm stuck in the undertow. Like there is or call outs and shit like this where like there's so many cliches, cliche lines. Exactly that. Like, yeah, we can avoid that. But in terms of thematically, you know, or using the particular words to describe a feeling and emotion, that's the theme of the song. I mean, that's something that's so tricky and hard to find, again, uniquely. but that's why because there's so many elements of a song right there's there's lyrics there's the there's the vocals there's the types of cadence you know you can have a a song that everything is the same um in terms of the lyrics the concept the theme uh the the the groove the bpm the melodies and you can have one do a deathcore version one do a a country version you know what i mean and you technically that would be a cover because they're so similar right but at the same time to a listener a lot of people would not even know they're the same song sonically they don't sound anything like exactly right even though conceptually on paper you have all the things written down that's why i see things happening in the scene sometimes of like this band copy this man this man copy this man i'm like yeah you know but like under what factors you know what i mean like there's so many elements and variables like what what defines that you know i'm not i'm not making the copyright laws that's for sure that i my youtube channel says i'm not you know what i mean with how many claims i get so uh it's like in terms of making music and how similar it is to something else and it being considered like new at what point like if the bp you know if the melody is the same and the lyrics are almost are like 90 i don't know based on fucking chat gpt the same um or or this but like you're three bpm faster like is this a you know what i mean like how different enough is different enough yeah and that's something that's really tricky and when we start to get like the the grassroots of that that's when it's just like well ed sheeran had that big pull-up right a few years ago where he's like look there's i can play every big hit from the last 50 years yeah with like these few chords yes and uh yeah i don't know i haven't seen much at least coming out of metalcore i haven't seen much by the way of beef from this band took from this band took from this band i think maybe because it's so small the scene is sufficiently small that the likelihood of you encountering them at rockville or at fucking download or something is there's not enough bands to go around you know so it's like um podcast partners with what we do if you get to a certain level there's only a handful of partners that have the money to be able to sponsor shows of a certain size that means that you can't piss them off right you can't because word either word will get around and or you need them at some point i'm going to be the equivalent of a supporting band or headlining with a part i'm gonna be at some fucking conference somewhere or whatever like need someone to loop me in with the guy from eight sleep or the dude that does fucking better help or whatever like it's the same thing yeah it's uh the scene is very big and small at the same time and that's kind of for me again a person like i'm not in a touring band i'm not part of that specific segment of that world even though i work with all the bands i i you know in terms of the label industry side like i work with them the back end in terms of like hey you know at least back then they would be like hey we got this coming out you know so i was very in tuned always with like pr and and like then being like hey we got these releases coming up hey do you want this person on your on your on your show to shoot the shit or you know you mean do you want to do some kind of content and whatnot um so that's my knowledge base of that but in terms of even just that circle and talking to people like everyone kind of knows everybody so if you're a dick it's really obvious just don't be a dick to people and then you'll usually be fine and obviously part of that is you trying not to copy paste someone's song session because it can be very like super obvious the other way the other way through that is to almost make being a dick your brand which is what ronnie radke does there there's a there's a few people that i think have done that so successfully uh and mad kudos it's they you know they do it to a point where it's like damn like to be consistent at doing that is like exhausting so if you can pull that off it's almost like do you know what it is and i think he's fucking fascinating ronnie's gonna come on the show soon which is gonna be cool like it's basically like being the heel in wrestling a little bit like the heel can have the the belt right he can be the best in the world at a thing but also it's kind of happy to be the person what's your job oh my job is to piss everyone off like my job is to give zero fucks and to just piss everybody off you know yeah that's a a few bands i think i think particularly during like the myspace slash like warp tour days that was like a thing to do like let's go try like be the extreme band like let's go piss people off like fuck you we're rock stars you know what i mean have you ever seen the video of when uh bring me did was it the brit awards and ollie stood on coldplay chris martin's table and kicked his like champagne off and stuff and that was huge beef and i remember thinking at the time never in my life did i assume that i would be seeing ollie sykes and chris fucking martin from cold play yeah having beef with each other every yeah a lot of people know each and that's why it's like i think it is somewhat segmented in terms of like okay you're you're a metal band or you're a pop but like a lot of it there's so much overlap i mean a lot of people have the same i mean uh you know labels to a capacity the metal ones are usually on the smaller ones you know subsets but like uh you know pr a lot of them have similar booking agents and stuff like that so like there's overlap always and and it's and a lot of also the the top 50 the metal the you know even country artists are like they're metalheads they grew up listening all of their band are made up of metal heads yes all the touring musicians are always seen kids and that's really funny i i had um i chatted with johnny from bill murray uh and uh because i was like how you know i've never been in nashville like how is it in nashville i know that's the country place but also a lot of metal heads are there and he and he was also mentioning like dude yeah like everyone's a metalhead like Even if they write country, it doesn't matter this or that.

45:24Everyone just is, they're hardcore dudes. They're from the scene. They're scene kids, whatever it might be. They all love that music, which is really cool. It's cool to see because, again, if you were to listen to the music, you're like, that is different than Breeze and Native. It's technically proficient, though, eh? Yeah. Like, technically proficient, which I think that lineage allows you to then become really successful. If you can play good metal, you can probably end up playing most other things because most of the things are going to be not derivative, but at least less complex than most of them.

45:55Especially nowadays because modern metal is so focused on production and songwriting, I guess, to a capacity, depending on which subset, because there's a subset of obviously, like I said, death metal tech, death, all that stuff. That's still death metal. That's riff first, you know, figure everything else out. Like the drummer is going 500 BPM or however fucking fast he wants to go on the double kicks and they're figuring that out, right? And it's super sick and it creates this very extreme, brutal, intense music, which doesn't have necessarily a lot of production. You know, there's not a synth layer in the background.

46:27And that's like, whoa, what? You know, meanwhile, now with the particular modern metal bands, it's like you record guitar and you have the MIDI ready to put the synth to it. Like there's no question if you're going to have synth layered in. The producer is going to just do it for you if you didn't think of it. Yeah. Anyways, and then there's going to be usually quad tracks. using me four guitar tracks. Just deal with it. You know what I mean? The drums, you want those raw drums, buddy? Okay, sure. Go record the raw drums. Yeah, it's all raw. Okay, you know, we'll figure it out later. Meanwhile, you know, the producer was like, yeah, okay, obviously you guys - Molesting everything.

47:01Yeah, because like - Can you explain to me, I heard this story about the drummer from Slipknot just got a relatively new drummer to Slipknot, which is kind of giving him a fresh breeze of light. What's the story then? Because I only know half of it. um i don't know the the back end story i just know they i mean obviously they had joey way back when legendary and then uh they had jay for quite some time and then i don't know a falling out or something it's it's the usual pr stuff of like creative differences yeah man and that's why when you see that you're just like okay you know you kind of move along and i don't know any of those guys personally so that's why i just just and same thing most fans just go oh no that sucks um and then they got uh eloy who was super sick he was in a sepulcher if i'm not mistaken and And yeah, he's a badass drummer.

47:48And then, you know, people are stoked on that. And I don't think they've released music with him yet or anything. I've seen some of the videos of it happening live though, which is... He's a beast. Some of the most insane shit. He's a beast. And that's why like that music back then, it's so aggressive and primal. That 2000s era, because there was so much happening. You know, we're talking obviously about like the emo stuff and then the metal core stuff. But that new metal phase that broke through the barrier, I think, bigger than any of the other kind of metal bands at that time. like the Slipknot, the Linkin Park, the System of a Down.

48:19You know, the fact that kids grow up now and they're like, I don't know, 10 or whatever. And you see like, my favorite song's Chop Suey. It's like, first of all, you're probably too young for that to be your favorite song, you know, like for the lyrical context of that. But number two, how the fuck did you find that song? Because I found that when I was 10. You know what I mean? Like, that's crazy. Let's watch some of those videos. Jared, can I have the screen? Nostalgia, let's go. I need to, I want to watch some of the live stuff of the new Slipknot. This is eight months ago. This is about right.

48:48Yeah. He's also built like an absolute fucking brick shithouse. Yeah, I think for extreme drumming, like, that should be a requirement nowadays. It's such a physical thing. You know, guitarists, we sit there, you fucking strum a chord, you strum breakdowns. Yeah, you can be as weenie as you want. You can be as weenie as you want, exactly. But, like, drums, I mean, unless it's all a backtrack, you can't be weenie. You got some beef through it.

49:18Yeah, that's problem.

49:21Imagine taking a drumstick to the face from that guy, man. Holy shit. Dude, if only I could be that snare. I know. No, thank you. But even with this, that's some sequencing going down the bottom, eh? Like some pads, some something here? Yeah, I'd imagine. I mean, most bands, they have usually the laptop with the set or whatever. But there's something, maybe like drum pads, whatever this is, right in front of us. Yeah, just freakish, dude. And it's just cool that you've got someone who has kind of brought new eyes to a band that's been around for so long. Dude, Slipknot's old, man. Is it 30 years?

50:07No. Okay, 99 was self-titled. I don't know when the EP was. eat, mate, mate, feed, repeat, whatever the fuck the DP was called with the first singer. They've been a band for like 30 years. That is psycho. That's like... How long has Kill Switch been around? Oh my goodness. I don't know when they technically... Because it's always weird. The album is not when the bands usually start. Usually they grind for five years in local shows and like their parents' garage. So like when they four. Alive and Just Breathing was 2004. oh my god two one either two either one two three or four no end of heartache was 2004 as daylight dies was 2006 i think it was 2002 around there um old old but they wouldn't they're consistent they've been going out and they're timeless when you make bangers like that it's something that's so special tanya west dude tanya west if you make that if you make bangers you can keep on doing it you can keep on doing it medals sort of becoming increasingly self-aware and ironic I think especially in its positioning the way the sort of people put it across what do you why do you think that's happening what's that say about the audience the industry the music um I think it has to do with a lot of things we actually talked about so far it's like there's a lot of nostalgia built in with the new modern age and people going back and being like excited about that so when they also look back I think that's part of the irony and somewhat of the joke because back then a lot of the metal was so like random and like kids in their garage like job for a cowboy or like especially during the myspace days when like the song titles were like tell jimmy to get the fuck out of the garage or like whatever it is you know what i mean like it's they're just such random names back then where that for that you know these bands weren't thinking i think a lot of these bands also were like well we're not going to be a big band you know people don't have to remember these names they don't have to remember these these breakdown melodies these these sound clips these you know vocal moments like who's you know we're going to playing to our few fans that like us and we're happy with that so i think part of that modern day of of embracing that is revisiting though that era because it was so raw like that and kind of making the joke about it again in in a very odd way parody yourself you kind of parodying yourself but then also how the industry has evolved in a way where there's a lot of particular ways to do modern music even though funny enough it's more genre fluid than ever i would say in terms of like again you listen to like a sleep token and they have a black metal part with like a pop song like that's that's cool that's crazy but it still comes down to you got to have good songwriting or like no one's going to care after the first initial like tick tock that goes oh that's interesting yeah that's different yeah oh that's that's cool okay like not if you don't add it to the playlist no one it's gone right like it's it's in the abyss and then it's like okay before we continue as you're probably aware.

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That's athleticbrewing.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout near beer terms and conditions apply athletic brewing company fit for all times it is interesting if you look at like token's a good example of this uh the summoning is their most played track i think oh yeah i remember that moment but that breaking through like what makes a song especially a metal song break through to that kind of a level versus this is a fucking awesome song like caramel is one of the most catchy songs that i've ever heard but it's not gonna it doesn't look like it's gonna get to the level of the summoning okay what what is that is it the distribution is it the repeat listenability is it constantly bringing in new people or is it just rinsing the living shit out of the playlist of the ones that let you know what i mean i always look at the top songs of a band and think huh why that one what about that one i think because i was a i was around for that moment particularly because i felt i you know i listened to sleep token when they were the underground band because this always happens with these bands they're the underground band that you see in like reddit you know subreddits of like you guys hear this band or see this band live they just play it's like 50 people they're really sick you know i really like this record you know what i mean like oh that that's cool you listen to like the this the offering you heard the offering dude this is so cool and like different it's got piano and like you know you can tell like it's it's kind of pop mixed with like mashogo and shit and like that's sick right and then there reach reaches this point and i see this has happened with multiple of these modern metal bands um where they have a really good catalog and that's the smartest thing i've seen those bands do with up to that point like they just they're consistent make bangers don't don't just chase a trend or do this like for every song's a bangers even though there's not that many people listening those people are very very happy right so these bands nowadays making a good catalog of bangers grinding and then there's a moment and then that moment has to coincide usually with another huge banger one of their best bangers so that's a band where they were having the momentum for when i saw again i didn't get into them when they did the ep but i started to get into them when they did like the the offering that album and then the album after that um something about tomb is where you fucking this place will become your tomb thank you yeah this place will become your tomb um and even alkaline and i actually i actually thought they were about to explode with that song because i heard that i was like this it's got everything it's got everything this is this is sick like okay do the thing yeah because the offering i already saw all that stuff happening and then alkaline i was like oh cool but there wasn't a moment around it it was just oh another really sick banger now this band's a little bit more hype kind of like grinding their i'm gonna use you know nerdy ass gaming terms like your elo like you know you're ranking like really slowly but consistently you're not losing any matches but the rate at which you're gaining points and mmr is kind of like at a particular pace you're not gonna all of a sudden shoot up unless something happens so they had all this built-up hype with the underground i think kind of like being like this is great and that's where the band was you know underground and then they dropped the summoning and because it had a moment in it and the song was really good and the band had this massive catalog and then the internet took notice yeah it was just a it was the perfect storm how much do you think that can be engineered i think it can be pretty engineered it's something where i don't think you can engineer making the bangers part of it right that's be good don't don't fucking suck and that's something a lot of bands i think are starting to take a lot more seriously um and not just be like well let's just taste chase the trend and whatever works with the gimmicks right make a banger and that's i love that that's number one right that you can engineer make a banger don't suck right the other stuff i think you can engineer to a point especially in modern day um with the internet you know you again i haven't seen it happen you're giving me the eyes of someone that fucking knows way too much it's this is the thing i i know enough not to a point of talking with a bunch of people and being at someone being like yeah i did this yeah we caused this exact way but in terms of seeing it from the sidelines of a music listener and understanding it and also understanding the industry and how social media works as a content creator how right how come so many of these different accounts seeded that rumor about that record coming out at that time on different i wonder that's again where i don't actually have zero back-end knowledge of that but you see that and you're like i see what you're doing something's happening like that's cool but it's and but this is before it was cool to do maybe something like that too right like it's And now it's like, you know, Reddit is something taken seriously by the scene.

58:28You know, like I'm not surprised if people post Reddit posts of their brand new band and it's like the label actually getting a new account or something where they're posting a bunch or clip farming with that. You know what I mean? And trying to find clips that make that big where it's just some random clip guy they found in, you know, Europe that they paid like 20 bucks. It's just an army of Vietnamese repurposes. Yes, right. And that's something where I, that's going to happen more and more. That happens a lot in content. Jared, give me the screen. I want to show you keep going I want to show you this geese thing while you're talking about it oh dude I forgot about the quack dude let's go I know have you heard of geese no I hadn't but I'd heard that there was a band called geese and I thought it's not knocked goose is it knocked goose dude you could imagine that I want to use whatever that AI thing is to do Tetsuno yeah Tetsuno take the band knocked loose yeah and replace all of the members with geese and tell me what that sound is see that's what AI should have been used for That is the best use of it for fun, but it has changed.

59:28Okay. The fanfare around the band Geese was actually a psyop. TLDR, a tech company that has learned how to juke the algorithm, created the momentum that made Geese go viral. Record industry has always done things like this and everything on the internet. In fact, this was it. So it's this Wired article. The Brooklyn band Geese was labeled as an industry plant by those who questioned its sudden ubiquity. Maybe it was. Brooklyn and indie rockers get shot to the heights of rock and roll fame at the end of 2025. It was released in late September, dominated the top 10 lists. Explosion on the scene seemingly out of nowhere led to inevitable backlash.

1:00:05Haters called them a sigh out some question. The seemingly sudden rise to stardom, calling them an industry plant. Others, while acknowledging their talent, attributed their fame to savvy marketing. The band blows up. In late March, the co-founders of the digital marketing company Chaotic Good Projects, who provide per its Instagram, digital experiments and musical mayhem, appeared on the Billboard's On the Record podcast. In the episode South by Southwest, he explained how viral marketing methods work. Wow. The firm creates networks of social media pages on TikTok and use them to drive the band's music into the recommendation algorithm.

1:00:41Songs are dropped into the backgrounds of videos. Live clips are shared. sometimes burner accounts, comments, and whole ecosystems of interactions can be fabricated out of digital cloth, stoking and sometimes completely manufacturing discourse around an artist. These ginned up interactions push the songs and the discussion around them higher up platforms, algorithm rankings, social media platforms increasingly where real fans discover new music. We can drive impressions on anything at this point, Spellman told Billboard. We know how to go viral. We have thousands of pages. Spellman has dubbed the process trend simulation.

1:01:12The The campaigns themselves are referred to by chaotic good as narrative or UGC feed. So confirmed the engineered campaigns for both geese and Cameron Winter. I don't know who that is. We help distribute clips of them performing and doing some interviews on TikTok, said via email. I understand industry plant discourse is inevitable. We've had the pleasure of being geese fans since 2021. Yeah, dude. I mean, this kind of marketing seems to be what it takes to cut through the algorithmic noise. But the problem with this is that you end up with kind of a race to the bottom. It gamifies it. If no matter how good the track is, I can't win unless I do that, that now becomes not a performance enhancer or even a cheeky kind of exploit.

1:01:55It becomes the minimum level of marketing in order for me to get something good out of my track. Like, yeah, it's, I think the scene, like that, there's such a gamification of it because, again, the metal scene's a little behind usually the content scene. Like the more mainstream scene, like that stuff happens in the, you know, in YouTube and like the content creator scene for a while. You know, like that's something where it's like, oh, okay, that's not necessarily new. Like people using clips or there's like people doing burner accounts and stuff like that and promoting. Like, okay, like that's the game.

1:02:29You know, you see these people on these Twitch streamers with like 20 ,000 live concurrent and you're like, who are you? What is it? Well, the guy on the CEO of Kick said pretty much every big creator's view botting. You saw that clip a little while ago. Yeah, that's, I mean, I did not know how prevalent that was until now it's like a thing to talk about. And it's like, oh shit, you know what I mean? But like, yeah, obviously in like the content scene, that's something it's like, all right, dude, I don't know. I grew up in like good old 2014 YouTuber, like PewDiePie, you know, was doing dumb shit in Sweden and stuff and like watching that and getting inspired by like the OGs and it's like the now all the stuff has been gamified so much because there's so much weight like monetization um ways and there's so many like just reasons that these bands you know want to figure it out break through the whole right incentives and with stuff like that again I I haven't noticed that that's the that's so funny the band's name is geese that's one where it's like yeah that that can happen you know what i mean where if i'll lay again a label just like knows what they're doing in a particular way and they just want to like push it like look i fucking adore them they're probably my favorite band of the last 12 or 18 months but president had an unusually large launch off the back of being on future history and riding the anonymous pseudonymous mask sleep token thing in a not too dissimilar sound that's really of the moment and it's fucking great and their songs are straight bangers right i don't know i haven't listened to knocked goose i don't think i don't think locked geese i haven't listened to with president though that's the thing and they're like the epitome of you go on twitter now and you're like you'll you'll see a new president song and you see people say industry plant and that's where it's tricky because stuff like the geese thing maybe happened and it's like oh okay shit like i guess that's that's going if that's what happened right but a band like president if you bring it down okay It's a guy who was in other really big bands.

1:04:25Lots of other really big bands. Lots of other really big bands. For a long time. For a long time. You know, I use gaming references a decent amount to kind of explain stuff. It's like, okay, so he has max characters. Maybe they don't have the best gear. And he rolled an alt and knew exactly how to get all the gear. Yeah. Okay. Like, when I see that, I'm like, the guy, they know what they're doing. You know what I mean? Well, think about exactly what we're talking about here. I don't know how good Geese's music is. It's still strange referring to Geese. Yeah. I don't know how good their music is, but that was their fourth album.

1:04:53And like this one is the one that said you're an industry plant. And you go, well, is it that? Or is it just really fucking good guerrilla marketing on a ground floor? What's the difference between doing that and a flyer campaign where you're giving out an interesting flyer? Fake$1 bills that have got the band's QR code on them or something that you can redeem. You know, a classic old school marketing campaign. That just seems like people are always going to feel slightly uncertain and a bit icky about somebody getting something that they don't feel is deserved. Yeah, I think in the metal scene, it's particularly tricky because the metal fans are hardcore.

1:05:31Like they support, I think, harder than majority of any other scenes. And that's amazing. That's really cool to see in a scene where like, if you're a metal fan of a band and they're smaller, most of the time, if they're in your town, you will go take the trip to the show. you will go buy merch you will actually buy the cd even though you have spotify or itunes you know i mean like it's something that's cool to see in that scene so i think a lot of metal fans are more are more invested in in in like the actual band and it means a lot more to them than just like oh another like you know pop record or rap record this is going to be a part of my life i'm going to personally invest myself into this band and their journey and i'm going to buy their much you know tickets which is amazing but also has the weird off you know the bad part of it of okay well now if this band does something maybe maybe shifts their style you don't like metal metal heads will be the loudest to say this sucks ass now they'll also be well it feels like a personal insult yes exactly because i think it's you're much more attached to these bands i'm sure that some people are very attached to megan the stallion but something tells me less so yes if she takes a pivot and does acoustic country right then if sleep token were to do that would be hard she should do baddycore that would be good she already kind of is baddycore she's baddycore with just put the fucking guitars dude like why don't you reach out to megan d stallion get her on stream okay and you can do hey tell me about this new fast songwriting thing oh dude yeah um you're launching a new channel no so not a new channel so basically i a thing i used to do was like i did this series called how to metal it was like writing song it was how do i wear this for i would do shorts of like because a lot of people loved a lot of these bands and i love a lot of these bands i grew up like i said listening to a bunch of bands and i'm like at this point i've written enough music i've also listened to enough music and i understand how it kind of works it kind of describing factors we were talking about like particular types of bpm or these intricacies of like metal rick beato yeah yeah metal rick beato uh respect to rick beato he's sick by the way and um he's the man i used to do these how to in 30 seconds so i would kind of do a short of like okay you like i i grew up loving uh under oath so like okay i want to here's how to under in 30 seconds you know what i mean because i also was having fun of like understanding short content i i'm again i come from the old youtube world of make a video not make a clip you know i was like what the fuck's a clip right how am i supposed to make something especially because i didn't grow up with like vine on on my end it was like how like how do i enter you know how do i bring something of value to someone for like in like 10 30 seconds this is weird like i need to do more so i kind of tried with with this and i was like so for under oath example i'd be like you know how to underwrite the 30 seconds you know dissonant chords you know um pterodactyl screech you know like you do stereotypical things sometimes they're more funny meme uh attributes and sometimes they're more like uh musician knowledge attributes and you kind of combine those and like at the end of 30 seconds i'd play like kind of like an eight eight second riff of that kind of outlines that sound and try to get as close as i can to that style um while not actually taking any of their songs obviously because that defeats the purpose um so i did that for so many bands and when they're i saw people were like yo this is sick like full version when when are you doing the phone i'm like you really like you want the full version of this like okay so i would um go on stream and i would write the whole thing in two and two and a half hours two to three hours um live because i thought it was fun you know i'm like all right well i already have the hardest part to write the riff and the vibe so like i kind of got commit anyways i would do that and then I'd put it on DSPs and kind of make it a whole rollout on YouTube.

1:08:56So I did that. And that was probably the peak of when I was doing YouTube and like going hard and doing a lot of crazy shit. And I would do that once a week, release a song once a week, do one of those once a week. It was a little psychotic, but it was fun. And then fast forward kind of a year later, I took a break for many reasons, but, you know, especially burnout and doing that for a while. And then when I came back, I noticed, you know, Hey, you know, when I was gone, all, you know, I was taking care of myself, I was going outside and like, you know, working out, caring about like under learning.

1:09:26I missed learning so much about macros, micros. And I was like, Oh my God, like, what the fuck is this world? I never, I haven't taken time to learn new things. Right. Um, and with that also learning production, learning more songwriting, learning a lot of that. And I noticed I spent most days just also writing music, hanging with my wife and feeding squirrels, like going to the park and going to Costco. Like that was my life. Um, and coming back, I came back with a song, which was really sick. A nocturnal track that I was like, you know let's combine like these really obscure references like dance electronic music and and funk and fall music like valjarta and mara and all this stuff and see what happens and um kind of made that a new project and as i came back the focus of me wanting to write i started to get a little distracted of like oh like this is fun like youtube like yeah i guess let's make you like videos and stuff and like i had a lot of fun doing that but very quickly to avoid going back to, you know, the cycle of, oh, shit.

1:10:20I caught myself very quickly. Because again, that time off, I never had time off. I did YouTube for 11 years at that point. Yeah, 11 years straight. I don't think I ever did not upload for a week. And again, best job in the world. It's hard work, but in a different capacity. You know, it's very mentally exhausting. There is no such thing as clock out. It is, you think about it, it's all you do, it's all you think about right forever but obviously in terms of like versus a real job you know it's much easier like i much prefer to do that right um but yeah i came back and i was starting to do these things and i'm like oh this is fun too like yeah i kind of want to explore like i want to test the grounds like what do i feel like this is you know i left the internet and took my break and have this new perspective on on life to a capacity but particularly about what i want to do with my life every day um and with with what i want to give to people and share with people uh and what i want to spend my time doing and it's been a bit of a trial period until kind of um a few months ago i was like okay like i understand i tried a little this i tried a little that again like that's definitely not for me i definitely don't want to be the reaction guy because like i feel like i can offer the world more than watching a song you know and it's really tricky because particularly with what i've done with the channel and what i've done with myself is i love sharing music that's that's what it came down to that's why you know i started i when i started my channel i would do guitar covers because i didn't know how to talk really you know i was just an awkward kid you know in just finishing high school and i didn't really know how to talk to people i didn't really i didn't know what being a youtuber was i just played guitar and i had a lot of cool music on guitar that i wanted to share with people um so the channel has always kind of been revolved around sharing new music in different capacities whether later on its reactions whether it's through memes etc etc and uh then again nowadays it's like okay well how do i do that while still not going back to kind of old ways of like oh well here's the news let's talk about it but like the news is kind of always fucked up you know there's not unfortunately in the metal scene there are really good things that happen and really amazing like hell yeah like that's a big feat you know like knock loose playing kimmel or like spirit box playing like uh the grammys like that's amazing right um but there's also a lot of like oh this guy got canceled and like that guy texted someone at her age and you're like okay this is not you know i don't want to go live and talk about this with people this is not what i want to bring energy into my life first of all i don't want to absorb this you're kind of obliged to because you're in the scene and this is news in the scene exactly hey when are you going to talk about such and such dude when i was gone and ozzy died that shit was so sad and like the only thing i was like fuck man like i grew up you know one of the first metal songs i ever heard was crazy train in general um and like fuck man this sucks and i was gone from the internet so the only thing i had was like thank fuck i do not have to talk about this because this is like this is not my place this is not something i want to go live and discuss and like share it you know what i mean like this is it's it's really tricky because you also want to with a community and you build a community for so long you know just like you celebrate the wins you have to celebrate the else and the sad parts right um and when there's some things too when it's like i don't add value to this conversation beside maybe slightly consoling a few people um but it's also like i'm not in the right space to do that anyway so i'm not i'm not going to bring any positive energy to this by doing anything with this so like a lot of things like that happen and it really sucks and that's something again i was in a space of what i was doing before which i had fun it was great and i feel like community wise like it became something really strong and a lot of people would go and look for it like hey there's news this this that but um when it came down to it it still was like it was too much of like a slippery slope of of like hey this really cool thing happened great yeah this really shitty thing happened oh guess i need to talk about that as well yeah and it's ironic because obviously in the content space, the negative stuff will do better.

1:14:20And a lot of people get really excited. Dude, Fantano versus Radke was like the heavyweight battle of 2025. There's the scenes lovely, Chris. It's a crazy place where like from the sidelines I see and like, I'm kind of like, I'm happy I can just chill on the side. You are aware that this is the same in like every industry though, right? Like in podcasting, it's just as tight. There's entire ecosystems dedicated to reporting on the drama that's going on. Not reporting on what they're reporting on. Yes. Reporting on what's happening between the people who do the reporting. Yes. Between who do the reporting and then reacting to the video.

1:14:55What I can't wait for is when people react to the people who do the reaction. I want derivative content all the way up. I want to be able to have, what were those fucking, what was the reason that the entire financial crisis happened? What were they? CFDs or whatever they were called? Like those like fucking derivative things where people were bundling together a ton of debt. I want the, bundle together debt of the bundle together debt of the bundle to get like all of the gossip of the gossip of the gossip and i want to be like fucking two guys at the top yeah i feel i feel yeah that goes on a lot in the content space for sure and i think in the metal scene too like it it has bled through a lot and that's why it's like if i'm gonna like when i left i was like i'm content with my legacy and i genuinely am i'm like if i actually you're happy to just leave it forever i am so i am i'm i'm proud of what we did and the thing i brought to the internet for those years you know what i mean like i i look back on it and sure i screwed up and did dumb shit you know i mean like so does everybody it's one of those where it's like i am proud that i i feel like over those years i was a net positive to the space in terms of which i which i worked and did things with you know what i mean and that that i was like i'm i'm cool with this like if this is actually it that's great you know what i mean like i'm gonna take a break but like i'm not gonna pressure myself of like i need to come back because i need to be at peace and i told my wife this too i was like if i leave at all i need to actually be at peace that i'm gone like and leaving not taking a break yeah like i i need to have that mentality however i don't i also don't want to always close things you know so i don't want to just be like definitive like because i know i love it right so that's something really tricky i love the space and i love this and even if i do something in a different capacity it's like okay i want like i'm gonna let's let's take a break because i need to figure out my i need to take a break anyways but i need to still at this point be content if that's not just a break you know what i mean and like especially because i've never taken a break so doing that you you you learn a lot of shit about yourself and you learn a lot of things about what's priorities in life and just like what matters and what was that like a lot of people even if they don't make videos on the internet can relate to being hard charging you've said uh i've never actually taken the time to not just burn right this always on candle at both ends thing talk to me about the deceleration of attention progress even your habits you wake up and research what's going on on rock sound or whatever and then that would be that would be part of the thing and you your girlfriend wife you're like well fucking you know like she does the same thing as me or similar thing to me and like maybe because i'm not doing this thing anymore but who's my identity how am i after this can you just explain the suite of challenges and how you dealt with them as you went through your hiatus that's that's a big chat probably with a psychologist for like two hours but i'll dump it down to more like yeah it's it one of the big things you mentioned too like my wife does the same thing i do which is awesome like she's a musician she's she produces she and she used to also play guitar and do guitar content too and like that's so cool and one of those things of just being like i'm so lucky doing what i do and especially what i did at that time and I'm so grateful for it.

1:18:02And that's why it's so tricky to be so grateful for something and want to also show that, you know, cause I don't want to people to also be like, Hey dude, like you're, you're not feeling like what you get to be a YouTuber and what you're sad. Like what's your fucking problem? You know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, cause life can happen. You know, there's, there's other aspects of life, but also it being a thing of like, you know, like my wife is here and like, she also does the same thing. However, I'm, I'm still playing like single player in my career because of how I set it up for the past 12 years you know my career is based around me doing this this and this and this and this and this meanwhile my wife's there also doing her own thing which she's never complained about she's the most supportive amazing woman ever um but it's still one of those things of like I remember I would you know something would happen in the scene or like a comment like I'd be like oh I gotta go do this video and do this thing um which again less job but it's one of those of like I see my wife there like writing music there by herself and I'm like I just want to write music with you why the fuck am I doing well you're living like This is one of the problems when you have two people who have big lives, especially lives that start to get separated.

1:19:02The most meaningful things that you do in your work life occur separately. Yes. You have the highest highs of your career and you're not sharing them with your person at all. Yeah. And I'm so, I am so fortunate that my person does all those things. So that's why. At least she can speak the language, even if she's not there when it happens. Exactly. And she's always, she's always been so supportive. And that's something I'm so grateful for. And, you know, that was something I noticed when I, when I took a break and just spending time, us do like just writing dumb music, having fun, writing, not even metal shit.

1:19:31We wrote like funk beats and like Brazilian funk shit and like electronic music and dance stuff. And it was like so fun where like, there was no one around. It was just us. No pressure. Yeah. Writing music. We would turn on like the strobe light just for the vibe for us. You know, there's no cameras. We didn't care. Right. It's something so special. But like that was a big thing of like, this is so special. You know what I mean? And I, I want, I want to make every day like this. if I can, you know, I'm fortunate enough to have a career around this. So why, why not spend time figuring out what life can be now that I'm like an adult?

1:20:04Because when I started this, I was 17, 18. Your, your, your brain is not fucking fully formed until like, you're like 30. I don't know. Like, you know, like as, as, especially as a metalhead, you know, like it takes a while. Um, and that's something where you, you grow so much and you become just a diff, not a fully different person, but you just evolve as a human, obviously, as you get older. And, you know, that's something where all I ever knew was this. Like, I went to school, I even finished my degree, I have a shitty accounting degree that I can use a toilet paper, because it didn't do fuck all for me in my life.

1:20:38But like, actually, when I was going to school, it gave me the contrast and context to actually appreciate what I did even more, which is something kind of funny. So I think going to school, but also like, it didn't itself do anything for me other than provide something that was a distraction for, you know, me just wanting then the thing I wanted to do more. But that made me want to do this even more because I saw the other side. I was like, oh my goodness, like that's that life. Like I'm so unhappy doing that. Like I can do it, but it's not, that's not how I want to live my life. Right. So I put so much emphasis of not trying to make it because even back then, you know, I was making 50 cents on YouTube AdSense a year like it was hilarious because all my stuff was covers so copyright claims um but i was doing it because i loved it i just didn't care i was like i'll figure it out i'll teach lessons i'll do this i'll figure it out right um but i had so much fun especially during that time of just figuring it out and putting my whole life into this and then when you start to actually the like a year goes by or two years go by you're like oh i i'm paying rent at my own place like i I wrote a track with this person that I looked up with, like I looked up to, you know what I mean?

1:21:49Like when I was a young kid, like, oh, I got to chat with this person. Oh, like, you know what I mean? Like it just becomes your whole life and you're like, whoa, like this is overwhelming because there was no expectations of me going into what I do with my life, you know, in terms of content creation, writing music, that whole world. and for it to actually, for me to somewhat manifest things without having the intent of, you know, it's almost like a delusion in a way of like, I was delusionally like, oh yeah, we'll make it. We'll get the million subs, you know, like we'll write music and pretend we won't be homeless.

1:22:21But it was delusionally talking that somehow manifested it to happen. And then when it does happen, you're like, oh my God, I need to give more of me now and more and more and more and more because I'm never going to go back to that kid that stared in class writing polymeters and polyrhythms on my fucking, you know, sheets and in accounting expense class. Like, I'm not going to do that. That's not going to be me. So there's so many, like, emotions and elements that get embedded. And then, you know, my brain particularly basically evolved and grew up with that. Just this is it. Bring the most value to the space.

1:23:00Be the most productive. Don't be fucking lazy. Give it your all. fuck going to jake's party on friday or whatever like what why you know that's that's not important you know go go be something go go be someone with your life and and that was the end all be all which i'm very happy i did with my life because my life is what it is now but at the same time it's such a tricky thing which i had no balance in life i'd never understood balance of like act like there's days i didn't go outside which you know like is again you get to work at home and make music shut the fuck up you know you don't have to go outside but at the same time it's like no dude like i didn't go i didn't get sun like you need that for your like that's why the sun's there to absorb you know like you need that for your health um so like it was really tricky for me to learn work life balance because my life was you know work it was my passion and it was so embedded and because it was such a self-rewarding circuit, almost of like, I do get to do what I love and it's my job and it's everything I care about in my life, why would I do anything else?

1:24:07And you quickly realize how unstable you can, like your life can become because then your self-worth is basically only this. This is all you are as a human, is what you, you know, your YouTube channel or the song you write or the video you make. that's who you are as a human so if it does poorly you're a shitty person too you know so that's a lot to unpack yeah but that's kind of like what taking that break like i i needed to get that balance i needed to be a human i need to be like i'm an adult like i basically haven't had this moment of clarity of doing anything other than this in my life like who am i you know like i still love breakdowns and breeze and you know 808s that explode my speakers right like do i like i think so right i i still love playing guitar i still love this and that moment and that space brought me a lot closer to the things of all those things and made me realize like i i'd fucking live for this you know it's not just because i'm in this cycle like i live for this but i need balance that was a big thing because if you're doing something and you've never stopped momentum can carry you through and you don't actually take a moment to go do i want to do this yeah this is actually my thing it was it's also really tricky when again there's i'm very grateful for what i have and the channel and everything and the people that support me over all these years like i still see people from when i started they're like dude i remember the guitar covers and i'm like dude i haven't done that in 10 years you're you're og that's so cool right and like you i know i'm very fortunate in that capacity so that's another thing of like again, who are you to complain?

1:25:44Like, tough it out, you know? And that's something I would tell myself in a very unhealthy way. A quick aside, there is a stat that genuinely surprised me when I first heard it. 95 % of people don't get enough fiber, not because they're being careless, but because hitting your daily fiber target through food alone is actually quite hard. But that's why Momentus built Fiber Plus. See, fiber isn't just a digestion thing. It's the foundation of your gut health, which drives how well you absorb nutrients, how stable your energy is, and how quickly you recover. If your gut isn't dialed in, everything else that you're doing is working at a fraction of its potential.

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1:26:58That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. I have a theory about this. I'd be interested to know what you think. How many bands or comedians do you know of that have suffered with creator burnout or something similar? Oh, I think majority of them in a capacity, no matter what. To the point that they've had to take a break from doing the band at all? A few of them, yeah. I think - Some? Yeah, yeah, some. How many creators that make YouTube videos do you know that have done the same thing? I'm stepping away from YouTube. I need to take a break. Ryan Trahan just fired his entire team.

1:27:35I saw him and his wife walking down the street the other day and he was like, yeah, man, it's just me and my iPhone and I'm going to be doing 12-hour days, like logging all of this because I didn't want to manage people anymore. Here's my point. Creator burnout happens to YouTubers and podcasters and Instagram people at a rate so much higher than you'd anticipate if you just heard what their jobs were. So you go, okay, so on one side of the table, you've got bands that have to be on tour all the time. They're away from their families. They miss their kids growing up. They don't spend time with their partner.

1:28:10They're in sweaty tour buses. Sometimes they're nice. Sometimes they're not nice. They've got places to be. They have to travel the world, the time zones, the sleep deprivation, all of this shit, the pressure, the highs, the lows, the pullback, all that unpredictability of whether the band's going to make it, all the rest of it. If you look at that as a lifestyle, if you just say what it's like, it doesn't sound... The same for comedians, the same for DJs. DJs are a little bit different, but the same for comedians. You're on the road all the time. You're with one other person who's your support and maybe a tour manager, if you're lucky, you go to these random places and say these things and you've got the pressure of whether or not you're going to perform.

1:28:43And what do you do if you're a content creator? Well, you do it from the comfort of your home, you get to have dinner delivered to your house every single day. You've got Uber Eats, you can go to the gym in the morning if you want to. Yeah, sure. Maybe you don't get to see sunlight that much or whatever, but like you're doing what you love from the comfort of your home. You don't even need to put pants on. Like this is the dream, the objective difficulty of your job and my job way lower than it is of something like comedy or being in a band. Exactly. So why is it the case then that content creators, people that do YouTube and podcasting, burn out at a way higher clip than bands and comedians?

1:29:17It's my opinion that that's because of the speed and the amplitude of the feedback. Bands get screaming fans immediately. You do something cool, sing a good note, you immediately see the positive reinforcement of the people in the front row and the back the hundreds thousands of rows beyond that you get to see it happening you are a comedian you tell a joke immediately you get that feedback dopamine we do a video i mean for you you're live streaming so it's a little bit different the speed is quick but the amplitude is so small it's just bleeps and bloops on a screen it's emotes long correct thank you good very good well done thank you like and then you hit a million subs and you go wow that was just a bigger number on a screen that was a crazy moment but still if you were to do the equivalent in a band right whatever that would be to sell out your first arena let's say yeah right because i think that that's probably comparable in terms of like where you get to in your career versus where you get to as a band like it wouldn't be a stadium a stadium would probably be 10 mil yeah So I've played my first sort of 7 ,000, 8 ,000 cap show.

1:30:27Wow, well, I sold it out in advance. That's my million play sub thing. How different is the experience of playing in front of 7 ,000 people sold out in an arena for you versus this moment that you do something that's really meaningful to you and thank you so much to the community for being here. But it's so much smaller and quieter comparatively. And this is why I think that creator burnout. That's a long-winded way of my bro science theory that probably isn't true. of me saying, I think creators burn out because they don't have sufficiently loud and sufficiently quick feedback mechanisms to give them the positive reinforcement that bands and comedians and DJs get when they go on the road.

1:31:05I think also the creator lifestyle is more naturally encouraging of being a bit of a DJ, you know, like in a fun way. It's like - Not seeing sun. Yeah. Like, yeah, literally not seeing sun, like doing nothing. Being on your own. being yeah very it is a very isolating thing uh you know i think a lot of people attribute to it it's like oh you see the big youtubers they're all in their party houses and shit i'm like come on guys you know like that's no no you know you know what the youtuber is doing he's editing at 5 a.m and going to the local grocery store to get like some like doritos yeah exactly and then coming back i and that's that's that's the equivalent you know of that and then going back to the room while you know their fam and you know friends already are asleep or something or like their partners you know i've been in bed since 12 you know like a normal human um and then has to wake up missing as much life as you would on tour without the benefit of the experiences and the memories well it's it's true i think particularly the mental aspect of it it's also so weird of like physically you are at home you are there right which is a gift it is much easier of course than being on a road holy shit right that's that's a night that's that's intense i'm surprised there's so many people that tour that are able to mentally deal with it.

1:32:17I understand what you mean that the objective level of comfort is greater when you're at home. But I think that although it's true, it kind of misses what comfort feels like and what satisfaction and where meaning and satisfaction come from, which is going through something hard and coming out the other side, okay, with people, right? That's what it is. Yeah. There's always people around, even if it's like, even if your whole band's busy, I don't know, your photographer's there, your front of Yeah, exactly. The LDs there, the TMs there. You can go for dinner with somebody. You get to share in the failures and in the successes, both at the same time.

1:32:50It's not the same. It's simply not the same. So again, I understand the throat clearing land acknowledgement you've got to do of saying, I understand I'm in a privileged position and I don't need to leave the house and who am I to complain and da, da, da, da, da. And that is true, but I think it just misses people who have a problem with that and say, well, there's no reason that creators should be getting burned out. They just simply don't understand where meaning and motivation come from. And they don't come from comfort. It's not what you want. It's what you need. And sometimes what you need isn't always what you want.

1:33:25For instance, I'm friends with a bunch of people in bands that are at the transitionary period from where they've just been on a bus, sleeper bus, to now being able to afford hotels each night. They want the hotel room each night. they need to be on the bus with the band because they finish a show they go back to a hotel and now they're on their own yeah and even though that's what they want it's not what they need and i think that mental health will decline in line with how separated the members of a band get yeah you know there's uh duos that have separate tour buses yeah yeah oh yeah you know what i mean and they're touring together fucking homeboys conga lining their way from like atlanta to Pittsburgh or whatever.

1:34:06And you go, well, why is that happening? You go, well, because we can afford it. And I want that. And you go, yeah, but are you happier? Or were you happier when you and homeboy were bunking on top of each other? Because I reckon that you actually were more, anyway, all of that is to say that just because what you want might be to sit in your comfortable seat at home and have your air conditioning and your Uber Eats come here and you don't need to put pants on, that doesn't mean that it's the highest level of motivation and reinforcement. you want and this is where i mean it's never going to work it's me me and you no matter how much we try to warn people it's never ever going to work but what is it the number one job that uh young kids want is youtuber and the second one is influencer that's great dude when i back in my day dude it was still fucking doctor and astronaut so i don't know what the hell is happening like if everybody you know if someone gets like i don't know a big cut now if they're just fucked because it's just a youtuber coming to save them like i don't know what's going to happen i really wanted to be a creator but i couldn't cut it on youtube so uh i'm here i think we put we pull some we'll pull some of this beer on it'll be fine yeah beer polysporin fixes everything don't worry about it you know what i mean like fuck it but it's that's where it's tricky because i grew up in that era youtuber youtube was in a job still in um in the early 2010s right there was like some of the bigger youtubers like the pewdiepies um and the marketplace i think marketplace was around mid mid tens um and those guys doing stuff and that's that's that's great but you could tell again it's a different vibe too like they're just being dumbasses and having fun like they're having fun they're already even pewdie's fucking done his retreat from the internet though yeah dude i love his new vibe he's just like i i admit i got my fam i'm living my life and i'm doing linus shit like i'm vibing dude like he's just doing his own thing and i'm like good for you i i wrote this essay a couple of weeks ago, the fuck you family.

1:35:54So there's three different stages that people can say fuck you at. Fuck you money. Don't need to ever worry about what something costs. You're not even that beholden to the limitations of going to work. You don't need to have a boss. Wonderful. Fuck you freedom, which is maybe you're on a ranch somewhere out here in Texas. You kind of don't even need to adhere to the laws if you keep yourself quiet enough. It's a little bit different too. Sometimes you can get it in a different sort of a way. You could imagine the van life people have got fuck you freedom without fuck you money. But there's a third level, which is fuck you family.

1:36:31And fuck you family is realizing that all of the games that you played to try and get acclaim and respect and recognition from the people in your industry, admiration from the people you admire, all that stuff kind of doesn't matter anymore because the only people that I need to care about are in the bed next to me or in the room across the hall. And they think that I'm the coolest, richest, smartest, most heroic person on the planet. So as long as my wife and my babies love me and think that I'm awesome, fuck you. And that, I think, explains this, you could call it just the dad pivot that a lot of guys go through.

1:37:12And it's sick to see PewDie do it too. You know, someone who really was sending the living shit out of it, like at the top of his game, to just be like, i'm good man i'm out i'm out i can't wait for that i'm so ready to do this yeah from a place of peace i'm out yeah it's it's so tricky it's dude when when people make it like that and kind of go somewhat unscathed because no matter what like you can't escape with a little beauty fucking skate the entire industry considering considering the situation that happened you came out essentially with not a scratch on him yes so like that's why like and I think other people one of my fucking filthy frank being one of those OG YouTubers too where it's like that dude quitting at the perfect time is he knew he knew what was coming it's better than that and then being able to also do exactly what he wants with Joji is like whoa that's like a different kind of fuck you that's like a yeah yeah yeah Like that's like a fucking transcendent.

1:38:15Escape velocity. Yeah, man. I'm like, how did you? Yeah. We're like, especially when, especially now it's like, it's crazy when you have a catalog like that, you're just uncancellable. I love that. That's why, like, because you're out, what's someone going to do? What's someone going to do? Sorry, take me down. I'm not making anything. Yeah, I'm Joji. I love that. You know what I mean? I would love to see the, the like residuals that somebody like a PewDiePie is getting. if he just doesn't upload anything else. You know what I mean? Because you just got - How many limited ads you got on those videos.

1:38:47Dude, that's a tricky thing. And when it comes to YouTube, and also part of the reason I had a lot of trouble because I drive so much of my worth and value of YouTube, not necessarily always because of the numbers. Like, you know, if a video didn't do so well, I wouldn't be like, oh, I'm going to go like end everything now. It was just tricky. It's like your baby, a thing you really care about. And it feels like it's not growing. When I was younger, that would hit me a lot. and then over time start to diversify right as the thing with youtube or just one particular platform and i would always advise this to like other content people and as well as even musicians of just like please god do not just trust this one thing because like youtube um can sit there and just be like uh here's a new policy uh yeah you know the edgy content you did like with all those guys it's all limited ads you you make 10 of what you made before because advertisers are you know the the better advertisers are not showing on and now it's only like the whatever gamble crazy shit that that's on there sorry it's it's sorry you know and you just have to stare at it be like okay so i have five percent of my income now like that's how it goes right and that's a tricky thing unless you diversify of being like okay well oh okay like youtube fucked me but whatever i'm streaming on twitch oh i got patreon supporters too oh i'm i also i have i have signature this i have signature that i have affiliate links you know what i mean like it's just if you diversify yourself you're also much less of a like uh susceptible to like just just a platform which does not does any of these platforms don't deserve i think any particular loyalty to you know the the kind of loyalty from them to you yeah exactly so it's it's like why the fuck you know if one day like i said a spotify or an apple music just wants to be like yeah man i don't know dude like suno's kind of lit so fuck it like all our money's there like real musicians are only getting like 10 % now.

1:40:32Like that's hilarious and extreme, but you know what I mean? What do you think's happening with the state of Spotify streaming stuff at the moment? Because there was a long time, it still is, of artists being quite disgruntled with a variety of different streaming services. Tidal seemed to be pretty good in the eyes of at least artists, but who the fuck uses Tidal? I don't know. I don't know the single person in my life who used to. You know what I mean? So what's the sort of overview of how artists and streaming platforms are relating at the moment uh every i mean everyone always is pissed and you know i've been like that's just that's just a summary of the world that's the summer yeah particularly with the music like that is one of probably the biggest complaints in the music industry of like streaming doesn't pay enough um and it's it's tricky because yeah Spotify pay more what the fuck but at the same time a lot of bands also are on contracts and a lot of the on those contracts they're not realizing maybe hey they didn't they signed off like all of their royalties or all of their you know streaming revenue or you know hey you still have like your five million dollar like a loan you got to pay back before you actually get any streaming revenue so like I think a lot of those stories get pushed extremely hard with those bands and they're like, you know, there'll be a band that's like, I have like 50 million streams and I made like 20 bucks on my song.

1:41:59And it's like, okay, well, yeah, Spotify should pay more, but there's other stuff involved. Who paid for that record? Yeah. Who paid for the promo? Who paid for the video? Who paid for your shoot? Who fronted the merch? Who fronted the tour? I think bands are now becoming more aware of deals. Because, you know, back in the day, it's like, oh, I signed to a record label. Oh my God, we made it. We did it. We signed whatever piece of paper. Oh my God,$200 ,000. We're all rich. Let's go drink. You know what I mean? Let's go buy a car in instead of realizing like oh we we we all alone like we have to pay this back guys you know like the capacity like do you remember that documentary that was done about 30 seconds to mars when they had to make their album bro i have to listen so this i only ever saw it once it might actually be a fucking fever dream it might not exist so but let me see if i can find documentary Sony.

1:42:51So it was when they were in Artifact. It's a 2012 award-winning documentary by Jared Leto that follows 30 Seconds to Mars during their 2008 legal battle against EMI. The film documents the band's$30 million lawsuit while they recorded the album This Is War. Oh, shit. Provides an intimate look into the music business and the fight for creative freedom. So this is available. It's available on Netflix, apparently everyone should go and watch this i remember seeing this pretty much just after it came out and it fucking ruled and it is jared leto is using like uh war dogs money or whatever the fuck that movie was in that he was that he was in with uh uh joker nick cage or suicide squad no it was where he was he was the like second in command to a dude anyway like he's using money from acting to fund the band recording the record because the deal that they've got is it's fuck 360 it's like 720 they've got like a 720 deal and uh they just eat everything for the rest of time the rest of time the rest of time and uh it is gnarly this i can't believe that it kind of maybe because of when it came out like 2012 who would have done a reaction to it i reckon your audience would eat this shit up, especially if you did a breakdown.

1:44:11I think it's fucking fantastic. So, yeah, basically eight stars on IMDb out of 5 ,000 reviews. So, yeah, it ripped. But yeah, these big 360 deals. I mean, I saw the top line of one of these deals the other day, and the first thing of a 12-page record deal contract is something along the lines of this is a long-standing and completely binding legal document it is crucial that you fully understand this because it involves the rest of your life it is highly advisable to get legal advice to like yeah up top it is but i guess if you're in a band that's been grinding for so long and so much it's like yeah yeah yeah yeah fuck the small print where's the where's the how much oh 750 grand yeah i mean i think nowadays a lot of those deals have become better because artists have become more aware and also labels have become more i think the right word might be accommodating i'm not sure of like oh okay like we need to be a bit more creative instead of it just be like these classic like i need to fuck you in an inventive way inventive way um like yeah where it's and also i remember i mean i would see i would talk with bands right and understand a bit and talk with labels too i'd be like i i learned a lot of that knowledge more working within the scene from my perspective which was different again i'm not i'm know i wasn't in a signed band i wasn't with that i was working with a lot of labels i was working with a lot of signed bands and a lot of friends with a lot of signed bands and a lot of friends you know with the a and r's and labels and stuff and working as a again content creator youtuber space right but my space is usually not as coincided with that world it's like you were content diy random figure the fuck out guy you make you do photoshop and you go make memes right good luck and here you go these people make the real music right and actually deal the real business like that's that was kind of the relationship maybe you know i wish less years ago but you know like quite a few years ago um and that's something where i've seen over the years i remember talking to someone and being like oh so what like the industry standard for like how many how many records you own it's like you know it would be someone would say like yeah we all like we we still all are labeled like five records and i'm like i would sit there and i'd be like what do you mean because i it's as a again as a concept first especially as a person singles or album no albums albums i owe them like 60 tracks yeah and i and i just okay so math if we do the two-year cycle of most majority of bands of release schedule you signed away 10 years of your life i don't know when you plan on dying brother but that's more than 10 of your life and i especially with a lot of these musicians they seem to want to be musicians because they love music and come to this space to not be conventional and not want a normal job and not have someone tell them what or what they can and can't do and i would see a lot of musicians and it would be very sad of like that seems more of a lock-in corporate bullshit than just going to work at you know the the bookkeeping because it's taking what was your passion and turning it into an engine yeah which to the credit of some labels that are able to do it very well and successfully obviously there's sometimes big bands that otherwise maybe especially in the 2000s like they didn't have a label.

1:47:22Maybe there's a lot of musicians that do not have the best business side of things. You know, they just want to play music. You know, they grow up, they fucking love Nirvana, they love Metallica, and they just want, I want to make that. I want to do that. I want to do it now. I don't give a fuck about business. I don't care. They don't, I don't want to look at my bank account, right? Like none of this. And kudos to them, right? They want that, but then they do need that business person. They do need that label to, or manager at the very least, right? To figure shit out for them. And yeah, they're going to get taken advantage of because that's how the industry works right um if you know you're kind of just going with the flow i don't know where unless you find someone that's just i don't know the very rare person that has you know is a bit more empathetic and is like hey dude you know what like i know i can fuck you for this but i'm only gonna fuck you for this because you're cool and i want to see you succeed you know what i mean um and that's a tricky line to to go ahead with where like five years it's like bro like what or even i mean three years left i'm like or not three years three albums i'm like that's six years of your life at least like that's dude you are a different person in six years like you you you you even gonna like this type of music in six years like that's such a long commitment um it's like a marriage to the business entity which would be a label and then you're also married you're in a band so you're married to all your band members you're trying How many marriages are you trying to work out there, bro?

1:48:45Like, you know, a lot of people have tricky with one. And you want to make, you know, your five band members, you're married to them. You see them more than your family. You eat together. You know all your habits. You don't want to piss each other off. You know what I mean? You guys earn income together. You lose income together. And you have the corporate entity over you and management and whatever else that's attached to that. Which, again, some musicians fucking need this because they need guidance in a capacity. um but for some of those deals especially that like 2000s or way back when it's like holy shit bro how do you like that's that's too much commitment man how are you doing that given that nobody doesn't listen to music yeah no one everybody has some music some people are more into music than others some people are more into some music than others but everybody listens to some sort of music yeah i can't believe how retarded the music industry is it's it is fucking wild dude when i found out about how distribution works but like distro kit and and if you want to put if i want to put a podcast on the internet i've got even a decade ago when i started researching doing the podcast the pod's like eight and a half years old i used old school rss on libsyn 4 and the only reason that i used that is because it was what rogan used back back back in the day it's like an old school rss feed converter that you manually plug into all of these different and then after a while it gets a little bit more i remember i was uploading it to like jb what's that what's that ghanaian streaming service is called like an honor or something there's like there was like we were putting it on ds we were putting it on soundcloud we were putting on all of these different things there's like there's a one the only one that you can get in all of africa at the time i'm like manually going in and adding the rss feed to all of every episode uh no just once but then sometimes it would like time out or shit would change on the the back end and i'd need to go in and check link health and i did that for five or six years and then we moved to megaphone megaphone got bought by spotify and now everything it's plug and play it's the it's like fucking square space yeah right for making a website so i don't need to learn to code anymore i just drag and drop and everything happens yeah not the same apparently if i want to put a song on both apple music and title and spotify at the same time well you can use like you can use like a distro kit now or um oh my cd baby i forget the name but you still have to jump through a fucking shit like way more hoops right in order to coordinate that kind of a release more than the podcast so i i and so funny when i before i left i i would chat with people and i'd have to still use like pod farm or something so i had to use the rss but it was still a bit more like conjoined so it wasn't what you were talking about it was like the next gen of much easier yeah and now it's literally just like oh i upload it on like creative spotify like oh i guess it's there like it's done that's cool um that's the distro kit stuff it and like the music side it's still it's not that bad but it's it could be more ideal you know like it's basically okay title artwork date record label and if you don't have one you have to just put you know that's why you see some fun like you know bands that are independent they say like whatever you know whatever the fuck record is that like i hate you brother like whatever they make up some random just to put something in there um and then you have to make sure you have the right audio you You have to make sure you check if it's explicit and all this shit.

1:52:04It's basically a checklist of, oh my God, I've done it enough times at this point, probably of five to ten things, every song, unless it's an album. So every release is maybe a better wording for that, that you have to do. And then after it's the setup, you got to add the lyrics. You got to add this and that. It's starting to become a bit more automated, so it is a bit easier. but also considering how before you just needed a record label as far as i knew maybe there was also specific just distribution companies i'm sure there was right that just did that and you didn't need to be like signed to the label but then again mistake me wrong you probably still have to be signed to the distribution company in a capacity so that's why when this stuff came out i think a lot of independent musicians became very happy because again we we don't ask don't asked for much so it's just bypass the bullshit yeah that because that made i saw a lot of bands and you can always tell when they're independent like i say because the default is like some like at just dk number number number as your record label so when you see that as an upload you're like oh these are kids that just like just uploaded just figured it out you know what i mean and that's something really funny um and then you see them get like signed later so now it's like oh so a lot of these independent artists have more of a say of at least how they can do it even SoundCloud um that was a pretty big one and even the the not the metal scene as much I know there was like literally a genre SoundCloud rap so I know in the rap scene it was it was like big um in the metal scene it wasn't as popular but some musicians used it particularly content musicians used that back in the day so it's better than before that's why but in comparison to how easy I see it is to use like the Spotify podcast thing now I'm like you guys gotta up your fucking technology music scene because like it's taken a bit have you seen song dna on spotify yet no it's i've only just seen this for the first time okay so i decided to do it on can you feel my heart okay so if you go into the track and then at the like below the lyrics and about the song and all the rest of it is song dna okay so if i click explore this is all of the different people so this is like ted jensen the mastering engineer dan graziano the editor annie skates a contractor and then like matt nichols drums and then how many collaborators and how many songs he's on like matt nichols so like if i open up yeah like uh jordan fish composer three roles so like and now i can go into worked with 275 artists recorded 473 songs top songs with like And now I can go in there and this is all of his stuff.

1:54:36So this is kind of like a matrix or a web where you can explore how all of the different people are associated with different stuff. Because before it was just, you would right click and it would say song credits. And they updated it now. Before it was so pathetic. It was just performer, writer, and producer. And most of the time it would be glitched and not always super accurate anyways. But if you were a co-producer, for example, it wouldn't even show. so it was just the main producer it was just the performers and whoever else has primary if you want to you know get some extra spotify plays with you go for it right and then the songwriters but it wouldn't say mixer it wouldn't say engineer wouldn't say fuck all even though when you distribute you have the option to put all tag everything so every all that metadata is is usually in there if you take the time to input it right if you go to what's the website that lists like every single person that's involved in a record it's like the legal requirement for it oh like the like public like like actual publishing like bmi yeah yeah yeah and that seems to be a little bit more that's granular they don't screw around well that's how a lot of artists who are anonymous get leaked yes because you know it comes to publishing and like they're like you know yeah cute cute that you're supposed to not know who you are put your fucking legal name on this website dude yeah thank you that happens really quickly and it's like but i you know hey we you know we're anonymous and it's like okay so i don't give a fuck about your stage name I need your legal name or you're not getting published.

1:55:59So like, it's kind of, that, you know, that's why like. Yeah. Nice one. Dark Danny. We'll have your full fucking Daniel Robertson. We'll have that down. It's way more lame if it's, if, if they had to go dark Danny, it's going to, yeah. Yeah. What is the worst thing do you think about? Oh, actually, what's, what's your prediction for the sort of next five years or so of alternative music? Like, are you, what are you worried about? And what are you positive about? Ooh, that's a big question, man. It's, okay. What I'm positive about is I think the scene is becoming more and more genre-less, which I get excited about because then the focus is not, hey, can we make a deathcore or a metalcore or a pop, you know, popcore, whatever the fuck, banger.

1:56:50It's can we just make a good song, you know? like and you know i love that because then there's going to be a higher quantity of good music i think that's always kind of my my end goal with it is just like i whatever route leads to like can we just get more actual good shit that doesn't suck like that's all i really care so i feel like the scene is going that way in a in a healthy way the bad side of that is i think also because metal is the good and the bad metal is becoming more popular than ever but now it's also almost like cool to like it so it's being more gamified it's becoming more of like a specific structure of how to write like an octane core song right and that's no shun an octane because octane being metal radio or rock radio actually it has breakdowns now that's sick you know it has heavy parts it has screaming right like that's something where i'm like that's that's cool now that people would go there before and just listen to like hell yeah brother you know what i mean and like have a good time with like respect to Nickelback but with Nickelback or with like Creed or with like classic rock now you're hearing like the bad omens the sort of sleep tokens the the spirit box and stuff like that on there right and that's really good to see but also it becoming much bigger meaning that there's more industry and labels and monetization in this space that maybe didn't exist as much so there's more of an incentive for people to do fuckery to do to do fuckery and to be like oh well this style is big so just make create you know create seven bands that's just that style you know what i mean like octane core is legitimately a what is octane core who would be in that um like and again this isn't a derogatory like uh of like oh you're it's it's the people who are derivative of this might be it might be derogatory yes exactly but like uh like bad wolves is a big one um five finger death punch for sure that they that is the best description that one um but um it also lewis again like you'll see bad omens in there You'll see a Spearbox.

1:58:46You'll see like Bill Murray even to a point, right? And he's kind of more extreme and fun, right? But it's basically music that is, it's radio-friendly active rock or slash alternative metal. And the boundaries is what makes it interesting now is that now you can have double kick. Now you can have screaming. Now you can tune down your guitars. Get away with more. And you can get away with more. Exactly. So that's what is cool about what Octanecore is but because of that it is very formulaic and a lot of bands see that and see the success and be like wait my band can make breakdowns and get on radio what that's the route to fame that that's the route to money yeah you know and and definitely fame to a capacity where it's like oh sick so that's something where it comes with the good and bad again heavy music's getting more popular great and that's getting injected in a way where bands are becoming more creative with it but then also bands are becoming more sterile with it and being like this is oh well let's just do this it's a me copycat sami copycat just work write the same chorus every time use the exact same melody use the same lyrics with slight differentials so we don't get sued you know by the other band and like let's all try to be lincoln park again you know because like lincoln that's it's so crazy to me that took so long for everyone to copy paste lincoln park again considering how massive they were in 2000s but like yeah that's that's the epitome of like the most successful sound i think in the modern metal sphere.

2:00:11If you can pull off a good hybrid theory, you're, you're eating. You're going to eat well. Yeah. You know? So, yeah. Again, it's always tricky because I'm excited for bands to get heavier and that'd be more things that young kids get into, but I'm also like, fuck. It's going to dilute down the sound. It's going to, yeah, it's going to make it a little diluted, which is, it is what it is, but also I hear a lot of bands within that making very weird shit because there's no genres. Like I, there's this, I don't know if you listen to much of these smaller bands like Marar there's these new subsets of bands that are so extreme that they basically can't be extreme anymore in just that sub-genre of the metal sphere they're in.

2:00:49So like Deathcore, okay, you're already as extreme as you can be. Like Lorna did it, you know, like, okay. And like Whitechapel exists, Suicide Silence, and like there's all these new bands, right? So a band like Disabody Tyron is like, well, we're doing that, but now we're also going to have like dubstep moments. So we're going to take, we're going to do - The heaviest thing of a different heavy genre and put it into our heavy genre. Exactly. so like I'm like that's sick or Marar which is this smaller Thal band like bands like Valjarta Humane's Last Breath um I don't know if you know Buster he also has Throne Throne you might yeah I know Throne okay he's the drummer and songwriter also with that band and his like more progressive bands are Humane's Last Breath and Valjarta and Thal is this genre which is like super djent it's okay man I'm gonna be super djent I'm gonna be such a fucking weirdo trying to explain this of like that's what we're here for dude I will explain Thal on your podcast channel I got you so djent it was let's do that to that Meshuggah.

2:01:39Okay, cool. Then after time, kids got bored of da da da da da da da and became da da da! Da da da! Da da da da! Periphery? No, because periphery da da da da da da da. Okay. It's more of a rhythmic groove thing where that genre, Thal, kind of took all those elements, added more of an atmospheric element, dialed down the polyrhythmic confusing rhythms and made it more of just— Less mathy. Less mathy, exactly. more of like groove funny enough more extreme yet more accessible which is ironic i would say um so there's bands that do do that i've been doing that for a while and then there's a band like this the small band marar which they took that and they're like oh dubstep's sick oh i love like beethoven and so they infuse you know what i mean so they infuse that with these sounds and it's like a whole nother world of like music and not just as a music fan but as a musician and a guitarist i sit there like dumbfounded of like it's fucking cool this is so sick so that aspect excites me because music is so heavy now.

2:02:38Bands are literally trying to find more excitement and heaviness in weird places, which will make more unique music as at the same time, it's becoming more sterile and streamlined. Yeah, that's a great point, dude. Fucking fantastic answer. I think it's kind of surprising because everybody can reach the market. And freely, there are no, if you don't, you don't even need a record label. You can just put, same as me with the podcast. I've never been a part of the network. You have TikTok. Yeah, exactly. Just put it up. And that would suggest that things would get more weird and more niched. But as people sort of take their eyes off the ball of mainstream, what that means is the people who can get there have even more prestige.

2:03:15because I always say this about mainstream TV. People think that it's like lamestream. It's old school. No one gives a fuck about CBS or 60 Minutes or whatever. And you go, hey, there is an unlimited amount of YouTube that gets uploaded every single day. There are only 24 hours a day on MSNBC or CNBC or Fox or whatever. If you take up 15 of those minutes, that's 15 minutes not going to something or someone else. That means that you have value in a way that simply uploading a YouTube video doesn't. it's cool and subversive and rebellious man and i'm there's no fucking person telling me what to say and that's sick about the youtube thing but it's low prestige yeah for precisely the same reason anyone can do it so anyone can do it and i think that this is sort of the bifurcation of what you're seeing here it's like who is going to be placed on the new madden game like who's going to be in that yeah yeah for sure of course yeah um who is going to get to play the grammys who is going to get to play at the BAFTAs, who's going to get to play at these different award ceremonies, and who's going to get put on radio.

2:04:20And if you manage to do that, because so many people are looking toward the independent side, that is going to create an incentive. So I think you're right, but you're going to end up with sort of two scenes splintering off in additional directions. Yeah. And I hope the metal scene embraces it too, when it comes to those smaller bands, because there's so much smaller music now and smaller underground bands and what happens with the metal scene and it happens with bands like sleep token with bands like spirit box even with with bad omens anytime these bands when they're kind of small and underground they they have that moment like sleep token had the summoning right all of a sudden yo this band's like oh you know who's they're not that good they sold out it was cool to hate the fact that it's fucking cool to hate sleep token fucking blows my mind it's give me a right well it's it's funny particularly because just their discography is not even is not metal really right it is they are a they're more of a pop leaning band with metal elements which is great so i think because metalheads almost like we're like you're ours you know what i mean like you're this is ours like this is sick you know we this we can listen to pop with it too that when they do the pop stuff particularly like with their new record right there even arcadia definitely more pop leaning that was great had like top 50 bangers but then also had some of the most i'm gonna use the word extreme instead of heavy extreme moments right um and because of that correlation between those two things and like the scene being like well well no you're you're you're ours we we made you we made you big you know you did that thing and then we all were in on it that's what we want yeah so like no you're you're you're not allowed to now like like be it just like a band you you're you're our metal band or you're not you know what i mean or we hate you and you're just some shitty pop band to it.

2:06:00I also think a lot of criticism came from the mainstream of saying this is shitty mainstream music. I can't remember who the guy was. Maybe in the Times, it was a British reporter who did a review of the album. It was album of the year, but he said it was like the worst thing he's ever heard. It made me sad, especially if we can cut this if this isn't known. Do people know that Sleep Talking are from the UK? Do they know that they're British? They have to. Yeah. They're definitely British. fine you said it i said it sleep token they're they're british bro they like oh i can fuck i'm canadian bro's fine yeah uh you're i'll give you license to be able to say that word that's our word you can culturally appropriate for the time okay i got you uh like hey we're not exactly fucking showering ourselves in glory as a country at the moment you know what i mean but we should take every grammy nomination that we can get take the dove dude we should take every single grammy nominated we should take all of that because it would be good well you guys have tons of sick metal bands which is fucking crazy punching above our weight you you have this one some i mean okay loathe sleep token i mean if you're class classics i mean like a bullet obviously is is massive architects do bring me bring president yeah exactly so we're ripping and we're you guys are ripping and that's where it's like that's sick i you know canada now i'm always proud to can't because the lights are on fire are they canadian is dallas green canadian yeah yeah i think they they fucking from hamilton i might just get so roasted by all i'm pretty sure they're from fucking hamilton idiot dude yeah bitsburg yeah dude you're so fucking i know they're they're they're well i know that too because you know why when i live in canada my whole life canadians you'll go like it's just a very particular scene in toronto with with with metalheads and it's always fun and um when you go to shows for some reason the metalheads in toronto lean prog and and and like and post-hardcore okay out of all the things who do they listen to so protest the hero okay fucking hell that is an insane refresh ball it is it is christ that i've listened to protest the hero in like a decade and a half any musician i ever met that literally said i i like heavy music or anything to play guitar i was like what's your favorite protest here no matter what without a doubt that's very proggy yeah it's that and then it was alexis on fire okay fine good and then it was like like intervals and like kind of like the jazz jet dudes from like the 2010s you know like that whole like sit through a plenty intervals um polyphia came from that scene but they're not that really sound anymore so like that sound um and then like billy talent which is not metal at all fucking love billy talent's sick billy talent rules yes all right i remember I did a media studies assignment in, like, when I was 16, 17 in sixth form college, and I did it to a Billy Talent song.

2:08:48So cool. Dude, I used to jam, like, The River, and, like, what was it? I think it was Billy Talent 2. I forgot the fucking numbers. I did those albums, like, all together. Nonstop bangers, man. Give me, uh, let's listen to a couple of tracks from bands that you think that people need to know more about. Like, just whatever. Cool. I've got a couple that I want to show you. Oh, shit. I mean, you did Alexis, so, like, I'm, I'm, I'm happy with it. That's fucking cool. That's nice to be able to throw that back. Yeah. But yeah, who else? What else should we look at? I mean, Billy Talent has some bangers and I don't think in America they're very well known, which is always weird to me because they're a big band.

2:09:25But anytime you talk to someone from Tri-Honesty, I think probably Fallen Leaves is probably like their little edgier banger. Yeah. This sound, dude. So cool. Do, do, do, do, do, do. The guitarist is so sick in this fucking band. You can tell that's like a death metal dude that was like, you know what? I just want to play like punk shit instead. That's a fucking hell of a head of photo. Yeah.

2:09:58Aw, dude. I'm back in middle school in the fucking frozen north. Hey there, bud. Going to Timmy's for lunch break, dude. All right. All right. You got to hit me with one. All right. Are you not going to get like a thousand copyright claims? I don't care. I don't care. Dude, respect, man. Holy Water. Are you familiar with Holy Water? No, I don't know Holy Water. Whoa. So they just released their album. Is this a new band? On Friday. They supported Architects, bro. Fucking three quarters of a mil. All right, let's go, let's go. Now, what do I like from this? So this is the new album. And the most interesting track, probably Give Me a Show.

2:10:36I'll show you this because it goes pretty hard. But then we'll listen to a bit of Nightmares too. Okay, okay. Yeah, I've never heard of this man. So they supported Architects. Were they... They were second support. So fucking Arrow were first support. Oh, yeah. I saw them in Houston. And these guys are really fucking cool. It's like that progressive metalcore-y space. It's just... I don't know. They did a... So this came out April 17th. This is why I asked you whether or not you'd... How much you listened to over the weekend. I got you. I got you. I was like, fuck, I hope he hasn't listened to the new...

2:11:08No, I haven't listened to this.

2:11:15Oh shit, dude, we back in the 2000s. Fuck yeah.

2:11:24That is a kid that grew up. I don't know who the fucking guitarist is. He grew up listening to Underworld. Chasing safety. 100%. It's got a bit of shoegaze in it, which is cool. I mean, Deftones is sick now.

2:11:39and then

2:11:44yep dude fucking fire so that's my first one for you and the second one i'm so glad that you've never heard of them that's like to be able to slipstream you with an unknown band i feel like i've just fucking like i feel like i've headshotted someone from across the map dude i have that's it i've just fired a bullet randomly and it's gone punk no scope bro um say six i know say six oh i thought i got two for two yeah i do thal and b core fuck so okay the the guitar types of style that they have that's particularly the metal aspect that's thal right that's shit yeah if you like yeah they're sick what do i like what do i like from this so i think uh the devotions just so i mean what would you call this genre because this is very Thal and B.

2:12:28Really? Or modern. This is the thing. There's so many stupid genre names that it's all modern metal, basically. But like, yeah, Thal and B because it's Thal with R &B. It's like, how token inspired is all of this stuff? Or is it before that? It's, the token did many coins, bro.

2:12:49So cool. All right, give me one more from you. Okay, I have to show you my R now because this is... How do I spell it? M-I-R-A-R. I gotta show you these guys. These are fucking... Okay, yeah. So, classical dubstep thaw. Okay. I like this cover on. They literally take, like, old school paintings and shit. I don't know if they draw it or they just take it from the internet because there's no longer copyright. 50K monthlies is a fucking good poll. Yeah. Oh, dude. They're so sick. It's just two dudes. Two dudes. No vocals. Oh, okay. Oh.

2:13:31That's a guitar. He's making that noise with a fucking guitar.

2:13:46It's fucking nutty.

2:13:57all right that's sick all right okay you have to go to the drop what where is it it's it's a little uh 130 130 you 130 i'll leave it play okay i it's one of those where it is one of the coolest moments I've heard in music in the past like 10 years that like it's simple but you'll hear the electronic element to it but it's so fucking extreme this is two nerdy kids what a nationality of it I think Leo is French and Marius is oh god Swedish orphan norway one of them one of the Scandinavian i think i think sweet right here this will get you the extra pump at the gym i don't give a how heavy it is

2:15:04a guitar psycho yeah that's crazy that's insane yeah all right what else one more Oh, shit. Okay, do you know Boundaries? No. Okay, I gotta show you Boundaries. So it's, they're a mix of kind of like that 2000 nostalgic stuff with a very modern, heavy edge. You want something more melodic or heavy? Let's go melodic. Easily erased, second one. Very melodic. Yes, it has a chorus at least.

2:15:46He goes for it, dude.

2:15:56Two singers. Yeah, the drummer is clean singing and then the vocalist is screaming. Yeah.

2:16:06You got the ambience, you got like the melodic kind of hardcore metalcore vibes, and then you get screaming. It's very that. And then breakdowns, all that shit, dude. Dude, very good. Very good. The scene continues to live on as fucking old as we get. Hell yeah, dude. Bro, I think you fucking rule. I love your stuff. I'm so glad that you're back. I'm glad you took a break. Thank you. But I'm also glad that you're back. so where should people go to check out all the shit that you've got going on uh you'll probably it's be forced to see my face if you listen to breakdown somewhere unfortunately on the internet my dumb ass face will pop up going oh um but yeah at nick nocturnal on everything and uh i'm gonna i don't know when you guys drop these but like in uh in a week or two we're just getting the studio ready and we're gonna be doing this crazy concept of time actually what i was saying earlier um when i was doing the how to metal thing that's right we're gonna be writing songs every day on stream from start to finish with crazy rave lights controlled with the actual songs and basically that is going to be just content right entire banger every single day live no bullshit no that's why there's no anything in the background it's just right the banger right there um from start to finish and you're going to release them um if people want them enough so it's going to be based fully on demand so i'll probably put them on like i don't know if someone wants to go get on like i'll put the demos whatever on a patreon someone hey go there you go listen to them if you really like them but like if it's a song you know again that people are like yo full right now like go right now full campaign i'll do the music video in the fucking room or like in you know in the swamp in florida we'll figure it out dude it's the best idea i really think because i would love to see what what goes into making a track from start to finish and the fact that you can do you're doing it with your missus um some of them i will i told because my wife uh she used to do the content creation stuff a lot more but she used to do it in brazil because she speaks mainly portuguese she speaks english very well though but like you know she she just wants to make music she's she's not a talker in terms of bring her in bring her hey she can be the fucking workhorse yeah come up with some nice riffs do some do some of that stuff for me i'll i'll explain what's going on well she's gonna be producing and doing her stuff so i told her i was like yo so you're gonna make beats and this shit and do shorts or whatever you want to do right because she wants to like also do she writes we both write i'm like great right thing and then when something goes crazy and you want to do it together let's go we'll do it together on stream and yeah i'll be crazy i'm really happy for you i'm really happy for you when you left the world of uh metal and the scene you basically got eulogies from some of the biggest guys in all of metal which was pretty hilarious it was like you died kind of yeah they never talked to me while i was there but yeah exactly yeah that's how it goes well you're back you're back and i'm glad that you're back and you're fucking awesome dude so let's do this again of course you thank you for having me i love what you do thank you bro i'm right goodbye everybody goodbye