Psyop Expert: “Brainwashing Is Real And It’s Happening Now” - Chase Hughes - #1103

28:38So what you're really seeing over time is a drift of perception and then context. So with this PCP, perception, context, and permission. Permission is that final thing that says, oh, in this context, I'm completely allowed to do this and it makes perfect sense. So a lot of what we're seeing is context engineering. So if you look at the Milgram experiment, which I think a lot of people are familiar with, essentially they prove that people will shock strangers what they think is to death in about 47 minutes at a 70 % success rate or failure rate, whatever you want to call that. but they didn't have a script there wasn't some magic sales script where they where they brought them in and they had the right words to say in the in the magic hypnosis guy that comes in there it's just a dude in a lab coat and all they did in the milgram experiment is engineer the conditions that make it okay the context made made that shocking behavior permissible you mentioned there about people or technologies that are unbelievably good at manipulating behavior when it comes to seeing operators people who's the most effective behavioral manipulator that you've ever seen operate in front of you i can't say names uh the guy's uh i think he's still active But he could get pretty much anybody to do anything, but he shifted the context.

30:19So the task that I gave him is go into this social, very social environment. There's like a band playing. It's like a bar, like a pub. This is a real thing. Yeah. And I said, I want you to have someone, let's say, laid out on the floor. thinking that they're just completely unconscious in like seven minutes. And I couldn't hear anything that was being said. And he did it. He did it within like three, four minutes. And I asked him, I said, what did you do? And he's like, oh, I just told her I was a hypnotherapist. And I asked what she wanted to, how she wanted to change her life. And she was really, really excited that she wanted more discipline.

31:03And I just told her I would give more disciplined and it's really easy. So he shifted the context to her being helped instead of controlled and made it okay for her to be laying on the floor and made everything okay just because he shifted the context. It's the same in interrogation rooms to where the context shifts and there's like a five-step protocol that people use to make someone confess to a crime. And if you really examine what the protocol is, it's just a massive shift in context and perception. What's the protocol? You ready? Yes. So it's socialize, minimize, rationalize, and project.

31:45Is that not four? Yeah. It's four steps, and then there's an alternative question at the end. Okay. Is it this or this? So just name a crime that's not gross that we can actually talk about. Anything you want. like stolen. Texting while driving. Okay. Texting while, well, they're not going to be an interrogation room. Okay. Yeah, cool. Smuggling arms. Okay. Smuggling arms. Great. All right. So the first step would be social. Fucking interrogation room for texting while driving. It's just armies of interrogators up and down the United States highways. Okay. It might solve the problem. Okay. So smuggling arms.

32:24So you're talking to this person and you decided that it's time to shift into interrogation. The beginning of an interrogation is called the interview process, and the shift is called the confrontation. So the confrontation is basically just where you tell them that they're lying, but you don't do it in a way that hurts their ego. So I might say something like, Chris, I appreciate you, and I just want you to know I've been doing this a really long time. I've talked to a lot of people, and if there's one thing I know for sure, It's when I'm not getting the full story. And I don't think I'm getting the full story here.

32:58And then I go right into the socialize part of this thing. And when I say socialize, it's basically people will understand. So the line is, I think at the end of the day, you did this because you're a good person. And I'm going to explain why. And I've talked to a lot of bad people, and I know you're not a bad person. And I think when people see all the steps that led up to you getting wrapped up in this, that they're going to understand. Then minimize. and like I said, I don't think you're a bad guy. And to be honest, I deal with bad people all the time and people that do way worse stuff than this.

33:33I've seen people that have done way worse than this get completely over it. So it's not that big of a deal. Nobody's accusing you of being some mass murderer or something like that. This is not the same thing. Then it's rationalized. I know you came from a poor village. I know that you had a really tough background and I know that you're a good person. And I'm not saying whether or not you were doing this to pay for it, but I know that your aunt has several hundred thousand dollars in medical bills that she's needed to pay. Now I project. So now project is basically it's not your fault. And I think anybody that was handed your conditions and your life would have probably made the same choices that you did.

34:17And there's, I know a lot of times these arms smuggling rings will use threats and pressure to get someone into the unit. So if that happened to you, I just want you to know that's something that I want to know about. So I know that you didn't like deliberately decide to do this. And then we move into the alternative question. And I'll say, so Chris, what I'm really trying to find out here is were you doing this just to make a bunch of money and then go buy a bunch of drugs and live in some other country? Were you really like trying to help one of your family members? Because I know these guys have been talking to you and I've looked into you as well.

34:52and it doesn't look like you're a bad person. So now it's an alternative question of, are you a piece of crap or did you try to do something good for your family? So that's - Both of them are admissions of guilt though. Yeah, yeah. I'm just trying to find out the reason that this happened. You're not, you're trying to find out an admission of guilt. Yes, yes. But in the conversation, we're trying to find the reason it happened. So we're going for the admission of guilt because the first part of the interrogation, there's like a long series of questions we ask, and based on those responses, if they respond a certain way to each question, then we move towards the confession methodology.

35:31And they're basic questions. If there was a robbery in some neighborhood here, can I say the city that we're in? Of course. Okay. So let's say like two blocks away, or maybe, yeah, two blocks from here, there's a neighborhood in Austin. And there's a neighborhood there, and let's say you robbed a house. One of those questions to determine how guilty you are is one of my favorite questions in the world. It's called the bait question. And it basically says, let's imagine you did this. I want to put you in the mindset so you can understand the question. Let's say you stole a bike out of this person's garage a couple days ago.

36:12I called you up and like, hey, I think you might have seen something that's going to help us in the case. Could you please come in here and talk to us about the case? You come in and I say, Chris, dude, thank you for coming in. This is important to us. We've got officers out there that they've been working all through the night collecting evidence and stuff. I just want to ask you one question. And you seem like a really good guy. So I want you to think really carefully before you answer this. Is there any reason whatsoever that one of the neighbors would have a ring doorbell camera that shows your vehicle in that area?

36:49so now you're confronted with a dilemma of if i say no and he whoops out a video now i'm a liar and they probably know that i did this if i say yes i'm at i'm placing myself at the scene of the crime right and the cool thing is that someone who's innocent would be like nope and it would be instantly they would have no hesitation they'd have tons of confidence of nope there's absolutely no reason. So that's one of those kind of setup questions. And another one - That's regardless of whether you've got the ring doorbell footage or not. Yes. And I don't say that I have it. Is there any reason why?

37:26Yes. Is there any reason that one of the officers would have received some ring doorbell or some doorbell video camera footage that shows your vehicle in that area? Not you do anything bad. And another one is, another great question, I can't reveal all these, but another great question is called the punishment question. And this works on kids. It works on adults. It doesn't matter. And it's just a few words long. I would say, what do you think should happen to the person that did this?

38:05And you always get amazing answers. I'll give you my kid's example. and this is from they were uh seven and eight give or take i came home from work i'm in the like my camo uh uniform and we had a white living room rug and there's like a little cardboard thing of chocolate milk just like sitting on its side and there's like a little pool of chocolate milk on the carpet and they were both playing the xbox the milk's like right there a few feet away i was like, what the hell, guys? They're like, oh, I don't know. And I was like, did you guys do this? And they're like, nope. And I said, all right, William, kitchen, Charlotte, dining room.

38:48Fucking prisoners dilemmaed them. Yeah. And I went over to Charlotte. Yeah, it was Charlotte. And I said, Charlotte, what do you think should happen to the person that did this? And she goes, spankings, grounded, no more Xbox, can't play with the friends, no more sleepovers, can't eat in the living room anymore. It just goes on and on. I was like, okay, all right. It's a kid's equivalent of capital punishment. Yeah, and I was like, damn. So I went to William and I said, Will, what do you think should happen to the person that did this? He goes, uh, maybe no more chocolate milk in the living room.

39:27And there we go. I had my guy really quick. Have you ever seen those videos of when there's three dogs in the house and one of them's ripped the shit out of a couch or something. And two of them are just sort of looking like this and the other one's got his face up against the wall. That is so good. I want to see dog interrogation videos, dude. Before we continue, most people in their 30s are still training hard. Their protein is dialed in. They sleep better than they did in their 20s. Discipline is not the issue, but recovery feels somewhat different. Strength gains take a little longer. the margin for error starts to shrink.

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41:24Of having a fault of some kind or being insecure about something. Revealing something. Yeah. Just being something that's honest and true. So it resonates. What would be an example?

41:40It would depend on the situation, but I might say something like - Bike stolen. Let's stay with that. What? The stolen bike or the arms, whichever you want. Well, yeah. So you're talking about interrogation room rapport? Yeah. Oh, okay. That's different. Oh, actually stick with the normal rapport and then we'll go back to interrogation. Yeah. So normal rapport, the admission might be, you know I was I was so like in my own head I was so afraid to be open around other people and I kind of like wore a mask for like 10-15 years of my life until I realized like it's it's not a big deal as I think it is I'm not a big deal as I I thought I was and just saying something that other people really wouldn't and being honest about it is one of the one of the fastest ways to make trust start happening in a conversation because just people are so fake that that is somehow rare now.

42:30And that's why I think podcasts where there's a genuine dude on there get more views than CNN. I think Rogan's got more views than CNN. But at the end of the day, that's one of the fastest ways to do it. Another one of the fastest ways to do it in this world is to have ignorance and fascination about something that you pride yourself in knowing a lot about. So like if you're an electrical engineer or something, or maybe you wire podcast studios for a living, I'd be like, God, that's always fascinated me with all that stuff. I don't think I could do that if I tried for a year. I'm just not inclined to do that, but it's still fascinating.

43:13That's one of the fastest ways to absolutely do that. And I do think rapport is a little bit overrated. I think at the end of the day, having contagious confidence to where your confidence is high enough to where the other person feels confident is so much more effective. And rapport is a byproduct of that. So I always try to think, like, what is upstream of the thing that I want? So if I want this as my desired end state, what are all the things that needed to happen to make this just an automatic byproduct of what I want at the end of the day? And one of the things that we found out over these years is in an interrogation room or in some business setting, it doesn't actually matter, is this level of confidence without any hierarchy or status.

44:04And the biggest mistake that most people make is like, if I say the word confidence, you're going to think more than who or higher than or less confidence than. And that hierarchy thinking is the fastest way to collapse any kind of skill in human beings because it pushes your awareness back behind your eyes. And I think if your awareness is in front of your eyes, people can really, really feel that. And one metaphor I use to talk about this a lot is, if I could go on a slight rant here. If you went into like, we're in Austin, so there's probably a piano store somewhere. Let's say you and I went into like a big ass piano store and they got this big grand piano there.

44:51And I go up to the piano and I smashed down the middle key really hard, which is a C. It's going to send out this frequency through the entire store. And the C string on every other piano is going to start resonating like crazy. But it's only that string is going to vibrate because it's tuned to that frequency, right? It's not going to vibrate any other strings except for C. The same thing works for tuning forks. So when I teach this stuff, it's that humans work almost exactly the same way. And one of the phrases that I teach is, wherever you're speaking from is where you're going to speak to another people.

45:32Where you speak from, you will speak to. So if we're in a conversation and I'm worried about hierarchy and status, I'm plucking that same cord in the person I'm speaking to. Because that comes through. If I'm very confident and not insecure confidence, posturing kind of stuff, that's going to trigger confidence in the other person. So true confidence is really contagious. And the other confidence, like where you can tell somebody's like read 15 of those LinkedIn articles of like, oh, how to display CEO level confidence. Make solid eye contact, firm handshake, pat somebody on the arm, use their name, that kind of shit.

46:15Genuine confidence makes other people confident. Absolutely. And having enough confidence to share without ever viewing it in the lens of hierarchy and status is the fastest way to like this, whatever people call charisma. I think it's the fastest route. How do you think about appearing confident in a room? Can you rephrase that? What are the component parts of appearing confident to somebody? Well, what we're really doing, like if you read one of those articles about like how confident people command a room and all that, there's YouTube videos all day long for that stuff. What I think they're made of is they're studying the symptoms of confidence.

47:06So if I wrap you in a heating blanket and squirt water in your nose, it does not give you COVID. but it gives you a couple of symptoms, right? It doesn't work in reverse all the time. So what I think a lot of those people that train online is they see somebody who's genuinely confident and like, oh, what are they doing with their body? They're standing up straight. They're speaking from their diaphragm. They're doing all of these things. They use hand gestures like this. And then they're like, okay, let's make an Excel spreadsheet out of this. We're all right, how wide was the hand gesture? Like, let me check.

47:44It's 36 inches. Yeah, it was 36. So then we train somebody to do this with their hands at 36 inches and they've got social anxiety. They're going to look like an idiot. It's not going to look congruent. It's going to feel like, whoa, what's going on with this guy? So I think our culture is just obsessed with symptoms in general. Like I want the Ferrari and the yacht and I don't want the bank account. I mean, I want the symptoms of being wealthy. I want to show people that I have symptoms of wealth. But if you look at the cause of confidence, and I think my definition of confidence is way different than what you read online, but I think confidence is two elements.

48:22Number one, it is a willingness to receive social injury. I'm willing to be socially injured. number two it is a generalized or kind of a fuzzy belief that things are going to work out okay things are going to be okay so that social injury is typically why people can't feel confident so it's social injury or permission i don't have permission to be like that here if i make 50k a year i'm not going to be confident walking into that hermese hermese whatever louis vuitton luggage place. Fucking Gucci. Yeah, whatever. And the confidence comes from like permission. I don't have permission to be here.

49:11They can tell that I'm not from here. So that's a role-based permission. But if you're willing to receive social injury, you're totally fine with it. You have a generalized expectation that things are going to be okay. That is the first step to like really feeling confident and completely eliminating hierarchy and status from your mental thoughts forever for the rest of your life, I think is the best way. Because it's not related to how you and somebody else interact. It's within you. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like this is going to go okay. And if social rejection does come my way, I'm fine with it.

49:48Yeah. It's a social injury and that's okay. It might hurt. I'm not saying I'm immune to any of It might hurt, but I'm okay. I'm happy to receive it. What do you make of Trump's behavior? How do you analyze him as a communicator? He's a fabulous communicator. I think he speaks at, I think, a seventh grade level. A lot of good leaders speak at a low level. I think Obama was seventh or eighth grade level as well. But why do they do that? They will become more followable, like exactly what we were talking about with authority. and while we follow authority figures in times of distress. And I think he's a communicator that is obviously self-serving, self-fulfilling, and people call him a narcissist, which is a diagnostic term for insurance companies, which is why that was invented.

50:40But you can say whatever you want. But I think he's a great communicator. I think he gets the point across. and he's just, he's very idiosyncratic. He's weird. He does stuff that other people don't do. He breaks from a lot of the norms. But the communication is effective. Why is it effective though? Like how does he get so much attention? Well, one, he's kind of loud, but number two, it's novelty. We talk like novelty massively generates focus in human beings and he's like a novelty master. He's a magician of novelty. So he's the dude when it comes to that. And he is not the clearest communicator when it comes to like long vision and plans and stuff like that.

51:26But he says things that are followable. He has ideas that are very easy to follow. Man, Shane Gillis did a bit about him talking about Baghdadi. When Baghdadi, have you seen him? It's one of the best videos on YouTube. But it was just hilarious how simply, it was absolutely simple how he communicated everything. And it painted a picture in your head. And he did it in a way that didn't have to use literary, flowery poetry language and all of that. But it put a very clear picture in your head when he said that stuff. It's interesting to think about how distinctive someone's voice is. and it's typical that a lot of people that have massive cultural influence have a distinctive, if you can do an impression of someone, probably a good indication they've got quite a distinctive voice.

52:19Yeah. You can do an impression of Jordan Peterson quite easily, very distinctive voice. You can do an impression of Andrew Tate quite easily, very distinctive voice, distinctive speaking cadence, repetition, this Russell Brand, unnecessarily verbose and articulate, sort of meandering sentences, listicle style. With Trump, sort of punchy thing, superfluous restatement of the past point with embellishment and a little bit of bravado. Obama, staccato, very sharp. This, well, it's this, and then it's this. like uh just i think that there's something to be said about a signature style it sometimes much of the time maybe most of the time the impressions that someone does about another person typically not that flattering and most impressions aren't done to pay a compliment to someone.

53:23But if someone can do an impression of you easily, you kind of own an area of verbal real estate. I have this. If you do that, is that fucking Kermit the Frog or Jordan Peterson? I can't work it out. But it's one of them. I know it's one of them in there. And if you do a Trump, even a bad Trump impression, I know that's Trump. Actually, that's a good judge of how effective someone is as a rhetorician and of having a distinctive and signature style of speaking, how easily can someone do an impression of you? How far away from the way that you speak can I do an impression and the person I'm saying it to still understand the person that I'm doing it about?

54:08You know what I mean? That's a cool rule of thumb. Yeah. And it's like the novelty aspect and the uniqueness of the voice. Distinctiveness is a huge part, I think. It's like the facial features are to a caricature artist. You know, like all these individual weird unique things about the face and I'm going to exaggerate them for a caricature. I think it's the same kind of thing. And that voice is like a good trademark. If you have that unique voice, it's fantastic for a trademark. This is why I need to get 11 labs to give me my voice back. yeah i'm on a campaign i'm on a crusade against the laden labs they stole they stole my voice they stole my voice and now everyone's using in ads uh oh i've got i have at least two ai channels of me popping up every day on youtube it's unbelievable with my name okay that's different that's slightly different uh oh they're using your voice likeness yeah so they have a go-to British voice called Archer and this has been around for a while now.

55:12It's just trained on me. It's been trained on me. It's got the same verbal tics that I have from the specific area in the northeast of the UK that I'm from. It's got glottal stops in certain words. It's got the U sound words, yers, bizarre little idiosyncrasies and phonetic idioms that I've got and uh it's motherfucking me and I at some point in future I'm gonna shout at someone the CEO was in Qatar while I was there giving a speech I did one of the one of the c-suite was there in Qatar and uh I got stopped talking to the dude the new CEO of Qatar Airways and I had this thing in front of me and it was connect with the guy that might be able to give me a discount on flights on Qatar Airways I'll go and shout at the dude from 11 labs I'm like uh uh I'll take the flights it was like deal or no deal oh that's good uh oh yeah yeah fuck play it like watch watch this thing you're an expert in communication oh yeah this massive searches more than 200 million dollars spent and on march 8th 2026 ocean infinity officially called off their last search their ceo oliver plunkett essentially admitted what no one in the official investigation wanted to say.

56:32Maybe the plane simply isn't where we've been looking. But one man wasn't surprised. A journalist named Jeff Wise had been saying exactly... Your THs. When you say the TH, it's very unique. And it's got your THs. I've also got a slight lisp that I work against, and it's got that too. So whoever the AI is, they fucking inherited my lisp. Maybe it's good. We were talking about, if I can get rid of that, if it starts speaking better than me, that's when I've got an issue. It's a race between the AI to refine itself and me and my speech coach, Miles, to see who can win first. Who's going to get rid of the lisp first?

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57:44Best of all, they have a no-questions-asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want, and if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Elements' most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modernwisdom. You're talking there about building confidence, but I'm interested in what behaviors instantly reveal insecurity.

58:15You mentioned micropauses as one that maybe not insecurity, but authority and trustworthiness, perhaps? Yeah. What are the behaviors that reveal insecurity? So when it comes to insecurity, let's go mammalian and then human. So the mammalian fear response or insecurity response is a reduced arm swing, incomplete movements. So like I'm going to reach for this, I'm going to stop and then kind of continue doing it. And then the movements aren't completed. You'll see a lot of that kind of stuff. And you'll see reduced eye contact in a downward motion. And biggest of all, you're going to see the body moving or staying in areas that protect arteries.

59:03This means you'll see a lot less of this. You'll see the humerus kind of sit in a little bit closer to the body while they're talking. So the brachial artery is protected. You'll see the shoulders a little bit up in social situations that'll stay a little higher, their head coming down a little bit, protecting the carotid arteries. You'll see the arms in front of their body like this. Sometimes this is called a fig leaf gesture named by Alan Pease. Because it's covering the genitals? Yeah. Oh, interesting. But it's also protecting the femoral arteries at the same time. And men are more likely to do that.

59:40Women are more likely to wrap a single arm around the abdomen like this while they're talking during, like if they're insecure. and this is protecting the uterus area. And there are studies on this. I have no idea who did the studies, but this was originally written about by a guy named Desmond Morris, who just, I think, died in the last month or two. He was in his 90s, but it's like the first researcher who wrote a book about really observing humans as if they were animals, like how did their body move? And so the book was called Naked Ape. They're like us. like the hairless monkey. And he studied, he was like this savant at human behavior.

1:00:24But anyway, like when you're looking at the insecure behaviors and if you're looking at two people, what you really want to look at, especially if there's two people, is which person needs something more from the other person and which person is reacting to the other person. The one thing, man, I'm hesitant to reveal this. The one thing that I teach a lot of these venture capital people, they'll get pitched a lot. I've never been to one of the pitches. I've been on the pitching side quite a bit over the last six months, so I know what this feels like. The one thing that I teach them to look for is what's called lip compression.

1:01:11And we tend to do this at times when we are withholding a little bit of information or we're withholding an emotion. So, like, you imagine, like, if your friend started a new job and you're like, hey, dude, how's the new job? And he goes, oh, it's great.

1:01:34So, that lip compression is withholding. So, what I teach them to do is watch for the compression. The moment you see it, just rewind. What were they just talking about right before you see it? How's the financials in the business? He says, oh, all the financials are great. We've projected out a good thing for the next couple of quarters. And you'll see that just that little lip compression is... Is that lip compression... I'm always interested in why that particular expression or feature is associated with that particular motive or leak. What is it? Is it... It's our first way of withholding.

1:02:12It's our first way to hold in milk. like a tongue jut like after someone tells a lie like there's something called a tongue jut that's very common like this this is our first no it's a way to force a nipple out of the mouth and these are theories of Desmond Morris as well like this is our first way of withholding and keeping milk in the mouth and our first no is pushing our tongue out or pursing our lips a little bit what? That's sick is that not cool? yeah is that not cool you're amazing sorry i'm enthralled in the conversation is this not are people more bored usually because this is brilliant okay good yeah maybe i expect you to be boring it's boring to me because i've been looking at it for like 10 15 i'm british you have to remember you have to filter it through the british whatever this is yeah yeah so that's our first no so tongue out of the mouth that tongue jut is our first no there's a difference though between a tongue sticking out really quick and then a tongue licking the lips.

1:03:12So a tongue licking the lips is called a hygienic gesture. So it's made to make somebody more attractive. So a hygienic gesture might be me sitting up a little straight and like pulling my shirt down, like rubbing lint off, licking my lips. All those gestures that are made to look us more attractive. Those you want to look for before someone starts talking. So if they know a topic's coming up, like, all right, Next, we're going to get into financials. And then you see hygienic gestures before they start talking. So typically you'll see hygienic gestures. So they're improving their appearance before the delivery of something that might be questionable.

1:03:50You're trying to stack the deck in their favor. Yeah. There's no behavior for deception. None. There's no behavior for deception. What does that mean? There's no behavior that's like, this is deception. None. Zero. What we're measuring with behavior is A, stress, and B, changes. Like somebody says, oh, someone tapping their finger all the time, or tapping their finger means that they're stressed and that means they're lying. That's total bullshit. Absolute bullshit. So if I just tap my finger all day long, what you need to look for is when I stop. I was going to say, you're just a finger tapper.

1:04:25Yes. Yes. So your first thing that you need to do, and people study body language a lot, and I could save you 15 years of studying body language. The only thing that you need to get good at is detecting change. And then learn a few little facial things or a few little tricks, but you get really good at detecting a change. This is the same as doing a polygraph. They have to get a baseline first. Yeah, yeah. And what you're doing is a visual equivalent. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah, visual and verbal equivalent of all that. What's the cadence that this person speaks at? What's the volume that this person speaks at?

1:05:00Or if they've been talking about their kid that's missing on the news, like, he's great, he's great, he's great. And then all of a sudden they say, how do you think he's doing? And they start using past tense words all of a sudden to describe their childhood they think or they're trying to say is currently alive. And they're using past tense. They shift from present tense to past tense. He is a good kid. He was a good kid. Like those shifts in tense and language use are really important. And when it comes to behavior, there's none for deception. You got to look for change context. So like somebody says, oh, well, his arms went into his torso.

1:05:40Like, well, did it get colder? Did someone open a door and it's 50 degrees in the room? So context is really important. Was he hungry? Yeah. And then clusters. So like one behavior is not that much to like, if you're in something that's high stakes, you want to look for a mountain. of behaviors. It's like his breathing rate increased. We had pupil dilation. He licked his lips and he was tapping his finger that he hadn't done before and his language shifted. He started becoming more, he lost his verbal fluency. So he's more hesitant in his language and stuff. We typically want to see a stack of many different things.

1:06:18And in body language, I don't know why, I got obsessed with it for a while. I'm really not. I'm kind of over it. But in body language, you deal in likelihood. It's like a meteorologist. It's not like, yes, it's definitely going to rain at 3.15 PM today. And we're looking at, here's historical stuff that's happened. There's something that's happening now. Here's a likelihood that something will happen. Is there a reliable way that stress changes your behavior? Yes. And what do you mean by that. You begin to get stressed about something while we're communicating. Some are idiosyncratic, there's a baseline, and then there's deviations from the baseline.

1:07:01But presumably there are also some relatively common patterns that happen across everybody, regardless of whether they're a finger tapper or a foot tapper or a neck scratcher. Yeah. So the most common thing that you want to look for is what stress does. We have a little cortisol that comes up, but if it's real stress, the person's also going to have a little dump of epinephrine, which is adrenaline. And when the body says, whoa, you know, there's a little too much adrenaline here. I need to burn some of this shit off. It's going to move like you'll see their foot. You'll see their body move because their foot's tapping a lot.

1:07:34Or you'll see like some part of their body, they'll think, oh yeah, I was just tapping my foot because it's convenient. What their body is doing is burning off excess adrenaline because of the stress. so right when you see like someone start burning off stress the stress started like 10-15 seconds before that that's interesting this thing has occurred epinephrine's increased i need to burn this off movement yeah frequent quick moving movement yeah and a lot of people do it through stiffness too so you'll see someone go from rigid and i can i can burn it off like this, like I'm going to, my body gets more rigid, my posture and everything, the stress.

1:08:16Actually actively tensing as opposed to just being still. Yeah. Right. From stillness to stiffness, maybe. That's interesting. Just go back to, can you recap the behaviors that display insecurity again? Yes. So protecting arteries is number one, and this is brachial, carotid, femoral, and this arm wrap that you'll see more likely in women of wrapping like a single arm like this, protecting the uterus and incomplete gestures. So someone makes a gesture, they don't complete it. And then they kind of stop where it's interrupted, interrupted gestures. What's going on there? It's self-doubt. Like, am I allowed to do this?

1:09:02Do I have permission to do this? Is this going to make me look weird? How am I being perceived? So it's a lot of people that are experiencing insecurity. It's about self-perception. How is Chris perceiving me? Does he like me? Is there something going on? Am I being judged right now? And maybe I need - You move in a hesitant manner. Maybe this was too fast. Maybe I did this thing weirdly. Maybe I need to slow down. Can I grab this thing right now? It's not open. Can I open it on a podcast? It's got a loud ass thing next to a microphone. Answers yes. Answers always yes. Yeah, get in here. I've been wondering this all time.

1:09:38Good, good, good. And that is the same, presumably, as the micropauses when it comes to words, communication. Am I okay to say this thing? I'm unsure. I've got more processing power. I guess there's more going on than just that. Uncertainty about what I'm saying, how I'm going to say it, where am I going next? What did I just say? How is this couched in the broader context to what I've been saying throughout this entire conversation. Yeah, it's a lot more self-management. And if you're wanting to spot insecurity changes, watch for someone in a conversation that their lips have been parted the whole time.

1:10:14And all of a sudden they're like, oh yeah. And they close their lips and they stay closed a little bit. So that's another one. So if you're seeing a little bit, a tiny bit of stress behavior and then their lips close, when they're normally just, if we're really interested in something, our lips part just a little bit. and then when we experience a little bit of stress we'll have lip closure again i remember seeing a image of someone doing the holding gesture that thing and it was described it's a very british thing to do i don't know whether you're aware of this so there's something in the uk called chavs chavs are a little bit like hicks or rednecks sort of um anti-social behavior.

1:10:58That's not to dismiss Hicks and Rednecks, many of them, there's some of them in this room. Yeah, I've been to Stoke-on-Trent. Okay, that city, if that city was a person, that person would be a chaff. Yeah.

1:11:16That anti-social behavior thing was a meme in the UK, probably until the early 2010s, and then it kind of stopped and it doesn't really exist anymore. And it was a meme of someone saying, The face that I make when I walk past a grandmother walking her small dog in the street to show her that I'm not a chav or a threat. And I've noticed. I bet there's a German word to describe exactly that entire phrase. Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Schadenfreude equivalent of whatever it is. There's one of my favorite. It's a zugrubner, which is the frustration that migratory birds feel when they are prevented from migrating.

1:11:57Of course there's a word for this. Fucking German's so good, dude. It must be a nightmare to learn. But yeah, that's... Actually, that would be a good example. What are some of the reliable body language signals, behaviors that people put across when they're not a threat? Oh, you'll see more open palms. Okay. And typically at navel height. naval height and this comes from a friend of mine mark boden uh body language expert uh we have a show called the behavior panel have you heard of this on youtube uh it's four of us four uh body language dudes nerds yeah what it is um and all of us just nerd out on body language but we'll take every week we'll take video and break it down police body cam video celebrity video parents saying their kid's missing and we'll be like their kid might not be missing and like well i love this shit dude and we'll break i live with it this is this is i'm going to be watching this for the next few weeks this is my sort of stuff yeah it was like we were just doing it during covid for fun and then we like had a million subscribers uh in short order and then it was fun for all of us so we just kept doing it what was your question non-threatening behavior because grandma walking down the street doing the yeah that thing and this you know they they did research on that in new york uh and they call it like right after 9 11 these researchers noticed that you new yorkers would greet each other like this like and they call it a shared grief expression because New Yorkers don't talk to each other anyway.

1:13:41So they're like, like that. It was the first time that thing really had a good name. That's basically like two New Yorkers kissing. Yeah. That's about as intimate as New Yorkers can get. Super intimate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Mark Bowden has this thing called the truth plane where when we make these gestures that are open palmed and we're speaking to somebody and it's kind of at navel belly button height. Something Trump does quite a lot, I think. And it makes somebody more likely to trust what we're saying. And so when I'm saying exposing palms means that somebody's a little bit more trustworthy, I don't mean like, hey, what's up?

1:14:18Like they've got their hands. Cult leader. Yeah, super cult leader. He calls this the ecstatic plane, and this is the truth plane down here. He's got some great names for a lot of these. There's a rare number of occasions where your hands should be above your shoulders. Very rare. And he's probably, I bet Mark has a list. I don't know what it is. But the other ones are just smoothness of movement. And is the person performing or just being? And that doesn't mean they're bad or they're deceptive or anything. But one of the first things I look at when I meet a person is, are they in front of their eyes?

1:14:53Or kind of just jammed back here wondering what's going on, wondering how they're being perceived? Like, are they present in what's going on? So when I train people, it's one of the big things is like just pulling their awareness out in front of their eyes so they're a lot more present. They're here. What about early warning signs that somebody is a threat or may have aggression? It's so hard to predict, especially if somebody's trying to hide it. I train law enforcement in some of these, and it's still very hard to predict. We talked about four different types. There's C-O-P-E. It's concealment, oxygenation, preparation, and expenditure, like they're trying to burn off energy.

1:15:37And in the concealment aspect, you really want someone who is concealing their intention. So right before some kind of violent action takes place, they'll break eye contact, but keep you in peripheral vision for a prolonged period of time. And the second piece of that is you'll see a dominant foot withdrawal. Even if they're not going to punch you, you're going to see broken eye contact and dominant shoulder either start moving away or dominant foot going back. And that's kind of blading the body, but getting kind of prepared for an attack. And in America, what we teach the police is that like no one can draw a weapon from concealment without making a 90 degree angle with your body.

1:16:18It's like if you're not seeing 90 degree angles, they're not going to, they can't get a weapon. Show me what you mean. So like if I have a, show me where I've got a weapon, anywhere you like. Right in the front. So I'm hitting 90 degrees just reaching for the weapon, right? So if I'm talking to somebody who's standing there and I'm a police officer and I see someone quickly move to a 90 degree position, I need to be very focused on what's going on. It doesn't mean they're drawing a weapon, but you cannot draw a weapon from concealment without this 90 degree phenomenon. One of my favorite insights about blading is from Robin Dunbar, and he has this book called Friends.

1:16:56A cool thing that you can do the next time that you're a party is look at the angle of the feet of men talking to each other and of women talking to each other. Women talk perpendicular. They talk at 180 degrees, feet to feet, straight on. Men talk at about 120 degrees. They blade. It's more shoulder to shoulder. And if you're a guy, just try the next time that you're talking to someone, ideally someone that you don't know super well, maybe someone that you've just met. Rotate yourself around to 180 degrees and go straight on. And you'll begin to feel this strange spider crawling, tickling up.

1:17:34Because typically the only time that men would have squared up to each other is if they were about to fight. Especially if you're close. like if your distance is like two or three feet and then you have like head-on stuff this is when they put bars or mirrors up in bars in the in the old west so men could talk to each other and they were side by side but you could still see them in the mirror that's interesting and it reduced the bar fights and stuff why because you wouldn't misconstrue something that someone had just said yeah so they're not facing each other at all but you and i could be sitting here side just side by side and look at each other's faces in the mirror and have a full-blown conversation.

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1:19:15Interesting, the levels of intimacy that are opened up through not being straight on. There are certain styles of therapy that are done lying down with a therapist to your side. A therapist isn't sat at the foot of the bed staring at you like a doctor coming in, flipping out a clipboard and there's a men's sheds initiative that happened in australia it's pretty interesting so they were trying to get australian men to talk about their mental health australians probably not great at talking about their mental health men not to and they got a two times multiplier for putting those two things together so instead of they tried we're going to have the come also if you think about aa also largely shoulder to shoulder although you can go across but the across is further away than the shoulder.

1:19:59So you have intimacy plus directness. But with the men's sheds thing, they realized that if they got guys together to do something with the front of their brain, because John's broken his lawnmower, but Chris has got the good wrench and Chase has got the hammer and the welding material. After a while, all of these guys would bring the thing in and they'd be working together and I'd be using the wrench and you'd be using the hammer or whatever. And before long, we'd be talking about the fact that John's marriage is breaking down or that he doesn't have a good relationship with his kid or whatever it might be.

1:20:32But it was, the synopsis was men relate shoulder to shoulder, women relate face to face. And it's interesting. It's interesting. That's a good one. What other sex differences are there in communication? What are the biggest ones? You mentioned that women cover up like this. Certainly the face to face versus shoulder to shoulder thing seems pretty massive. What are some of the other interesting ones? there's two big ones you know men will most often like reach for the stomach during times of uncertainty so just kind of scratching or adjusting you've seen the guys on the beach that are like like how you know somebody looking at me they'll kind of lean back and like scratching right here like this like this is all like the uh like a pacifier for us a little pacifying behavior and women during the same like period of stress since stress builds up heat and most women have this long hair over their neck it builds up a heat back here so you'll see women reach back and lift the hair over their neck for just a second to ventilate that area and they'll do it unconsciously uh so those are two big ones what do you think the men's stomach thing is what's going on there i have no idea soothing behavior i have no oh yeah it's a self-soothing behavior but I don't know the origin of it or some evolutionary thing.

1:21:50Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you seen footage of Wade Wilson on the stand? This is the Deadpool killer. No. Okay, I'm going to, this is cool. You haven't seen this one, maybe. Bring it up. Yeah. Jared, can you just pull up Deadpool killer sentencing? Is this from the movie Deadpool? No. So this guy's called Wade Wilson and there's a great, you would love this. You guys should actually do, if you're still doing the reaction thing, it would be cool for you guys to do a reaction to the netflix series that's just come out it's called uh worst x ever and a lot of it uh at least the two episodes that i saw last week wade wilson's the first one and the character deadpool ryan reynolds character his real name is wade wilson yeah here we go here we go and it would be only further broken if it took wade's last breath that broken system owes christine and it owes diane and it owes their families So one thing that you'll see, especially in men, you'll see this in women too sometimes, but you'll see it in men is we talked about like arteries.

1:22:53When we want to show defiance and that I'm not scared of you, like if we're about to get in a fight and I'll be like, what? You show your neck? Yeah. So we'll like expose the arteries. Look, you'll see the arms come out like this. I'm not scared of you. Yeah. So like I'm exposing arteries and we see that in - neck open. Yeah. Leaning back. So this is almost like a display of absolute lack of fear. Dismissiveness. Like a challenge. Dismissiveness. All right. Let's keep going. Steve Wilson. Thank you. We would rest. Did I just ask that you call with the defendant to ensure that he doesn't want to speak at this hearing?

1:23:31Well, Mr. Wilson, you have an opportunity just like during any of the other phases of, well, let me just finish real quick. Any other phases during the case, if you want to address the court, I would permit you to do that. Obviously, everything's recorded, but you would have that opportunity if you wish. No one can prevent you from addressing the court if you wish to. And no one can make you address the court if you don't want to. So it is an decision that's solely left up to you if you want to address the court or not. Not today. Later, when I come back, I will. All right, pause that.

1:24:09So what you saw, like right before he was talking, you saw the lip licking. That's the hygienic gesture to improve his appearance there. You didn't see him lean forward or anything. He's trying to maintain some kind of control in the situation. He probably thrives on a lot of autonomy and just knowing that he's kind of self-governing a little bit. You didn't see him blinking at all during that process. One of the interesting things about blinking is, and I don't talk about body language anymore on podcasts. I usually talk about DMT and all that kind of stuff. That's episode two. Episode two. So blinking is one of the most reliable body language indicators ever studied.

1:24:49And it's cool because we spend our time looking at people's eyes throughout our conversation. Let me show you this one, like just a badass trick. I think it's badass. The average blinks per minute of human beings in conversation is around 15, give or take. 15 blinks a minute. If we are in a situation that is stressful, without even noticing it, our blink rate can go up to like 85, 90. And we don't even notice that our blinking has changed. It's insane. Like when I took like the math portion of my SATs, I suck at math, so I was probably at like a 90. But what happens when our body gets focused in on something that's important, or we're watching a movie that's super interesting, our blink rate without noticing can go down to like a two.

1:25:41So stress increases how often we blink and it's not relaxation that lowers it, it's focus. So if you see these psychopaths that are doing these interviews like Manson and he's just doing this to the interviewer and his eyes are open the whole time and he doesn't blink at all the whole time. That's focus, not relaxation. Those are very different things. Like when I watched the movie Interstellar, one of my favorite movies, I probably - My favorite movie of all time. Mine too. I probably blinked three or four times. It's a long movie too. It is. I think three and a half hour movie. I own the Tesseract from that movie that was built by Kip Thorne.

1:26:22What do you mean? I'll have to send you a photo of it. Like the model that they use for the Tesseract of the movie. Bookcase. No, no. Like the entire Tesseract. You can use binoculars and look down into this thing for like 30 miles. I'll send you a picture of it. Unreal. So interesting. You weren't expecting this. Love Island reference. um interstellar came out just before i went on this reality tv show and while i was on there i was desperately trying to hold on to anyone that wanted to talk about nerdy shit with me i managed to grab one of the other cast members and go and have a conversation with him and i remember i was talking about the real science of interstellar because kip thorne released that book he was a consultant physicist on it and then uh brian cox did his live show and the background of brian cox's live show was made by the same people that modeled Gargantua that was the black hole.

1:27:16So that's a real, fully, appropriately modeled using physics of the world and the universe black hole. And I went to go and see him after I got back in Leeds. And it was the coolest thing. And I just remember that that really sticks with me, the fact that I was trying to have this conversation from memory about the physics of Interstellar as a non-physics person that's only seen interstellar once and i remember whoever's listening on this is someone listening to your mic 24 hours a day when you do these reality tv shows and i remember thinking whoever do you have a poor bastard has been cursed with listening to me try and like cod memory my way through this physics lesson is uh destined for for challenges so you're mic'd up all all day 24 hours yeah and if you get up and go to the bathroom in the middle of the night they want to they want you to put your mic on so you have a little uh necklace kind of like this but it's made of elastic and then a battery pack in your pocket there's a little wire that runs up and over you ever fart into them on purpose because you know the guys did all sorts yeah it's fine you just whisper stuff because you know that you're being listened to 24 hours a day and there's one person on each audio channel so these guys are on oh you have one human dedicated to your mic exactly yeah on eight hour shifts one two three one two three one two three rotating and i came out three weeks in and that was the end of my time there.

1:28:35Was this like a survivor? I'm sorry, I didn't know. Imagine survivor, but for fuckboys.

1:28:44That's basically what it is. It's Navy SEAL hell weeks for people who you don't want your daughter to get married to. Okay. And I came out and had these two guys come up to me and they said, Chris, you don't know us. You don't know who we are, but we've been listening to you eight hours a day for the last three weeks. And I just wanted to ask, what was the name of that book about the physics thing to do with the movie that you were listening to? It's like, fuck, like that was, I wasn't on camera. I mean, you're always on camera, but there was just some wanky conversation between me and Jordan, one of the other guys.

1:29:20And I'm like, oh shit, you really were listening throughout the whole thing. Because for the rest of it, I'm talking about, you know, bullshit. But the one time I had an interesting conversation, the guy was like, what's the name of the book? Was it Kip Thorne? Is that the guy that did the thing? So yeah, pretty cool. The fact that we have this insight into how other people behave through their eyes, especially given that that's where we're typically looking, is I suppose the problem is in order to be a good detector of body language, eye movement, you need to not only be doing your part of the communication and thinking about what you're projecting, but you also need to be doing the detecting thing at the same time so it's twice as hard now for the most part i think you i don't know whether an untrained person would pay that much attention conscious attention to how their interlocutor is behaving unless they were to do something out of the ordinary like if i do this you're like the fuck are you doing yeah but if my breath rate increases or my blink rate changes or whatever beyond the sub perceptible instinctive just something is going on sense that I might have, training that in requires double the RAM.

1:30:39I'm not just projecting, I'm now detecting too. It does for a minute. So that's why I teach people to just do one or two things at a time. And if you're just an everyday guy and you're not in hostage negotiations all the time, you only need about three or four things to look for. And you only need to learn them one at a time. And when I'm like watching somebody's blink rate, I'm not sitting there like, oh, Chris's blink rate's now a 33, noted. It's just every once in a while, I'll check in on that. And if you're a good conversationalist, your goal should be, can I lower our blink rate? If we start our conversation and I'm interesting to you, my goal should be like, oh, I'm watching your blink rate go down over time.

1:31:23But if you're talking to somebody, let's say you're in sales and you see all of a sudden you mention the terms of the agreement. You mentioned the APR interest or something, and you see BlinkRate go up. Now it's a beneficial item. If you're watching somebody pitch you and you're in some private capital firm, whatever they call that, and you're seeing BlinkRate at the moment of discussion of finances or the moment they're discussing how many prospective customers they're going to have or something like that, those are important data points. But if you're on a date, change the subject. Hmm. They were engaged.

1:32:01Now they're a little bit more uncomfortable. Yeah. And then something's stressing them out. Maybe you talked about one thing and some unrelated thing popped up in their head, which happens to all of us. Just change the topic. They got distracted. Yeah. Yeah. But also that means that you're maybe not being as engaging as you could do. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Either I don't like what you're talking about or I don't care what you're talking about, but either way, it'd be good to bring them back in. What are the biggest misconceptions that we have about reading others? Some of the falsehoods, lies about human behavior?

1:32:37I think number one is that there's one behavior that means one thing all the time. There's a few exceptions, like blink rate is a difference. But then somebody's like, oh, what if I have asthma? Well, like, then it won't be a change. It'll be your baseline. What does asthma have to do with your blink rate? Like allergies and stuff. Oh, okay. So if they're blinking fast the whole time, then who cares? That's your baseline. So there's a few, very, very few exceptions. But when you hear like this means that somebody is being deceptive because they scratch their nose or something like that, I think it's one of the biggest misconceptions.

1:33:18I think another is certainty. People, like you'll hear body language experts all the time, like absolutely this person's lying. You can tell because he did this and this at the same time. Like I feel irresponsible ever saying that like my eyeballs are more accurate than like a polygraph. That seems silly to me. So I think it's a likelihood game. And I think we should be honest that it's a likelihood game. No matter how good you are, I don't think any behavior expert in the world can still spot a psychopath, even though there's all this training out there on how to do that kind of stuff. Why? The signals are hidden.

1:34:02They have spent a lifetime honing composure and - Deception. And decepting, being deceptive with their face and their expressions and their breathing and all that kind of stuff. most of the time doing it unconsciously. And presumably, yeah, exactly. Presumably that would be so idiosyncratic for that one person as well. Where did their psychopathy come from? What are their patterns? What are they trying to hide? What have been their experiences in the past? And what have been their tells? And then what have been their compensations for their tells that now result in this behavior? Yeah. And you know what I want to bring up, Jared?

1:34:39Can you search on YouTube? Danny Trejo T-R-E-J-O Charles Manson So this is a clip from the pod And this is interesting for you Given that you talked about drugs This is interesting around hypnosis So Danny Trejo The Hollywood actor with the massive chest tattoo Big sort of cholo dude Machete That guy He Sickest dude Sickest dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a great conversation with him a few years ago. So you met Charles Manson in prison, didn't you? What was that story? Can you tell us that? In the county jail. In the county jail. But let me tell you, Charlie wasn't the guy that you saw on the TV specials.

1:35:27All right? He was a – God, he was like 5 '4", 5 '5", a little scrawny. He was poor, kind of like a bum, really. He had a string for a belt. He tied his pants with a string because he couldn't afford a belt. And everybody else, we dressed cool, ironed our pants. And so some of the prisoners were going to take advantage of them because they'd take advantage of anybody that's small. And we found out that he could hypnotize you. So we let him sleep in front of our cell to, you know, to make sure that nobody had heard him. And he got us loaded on weed and three other guys in the cell. Everybody else had like six guys in their cell.

1:36:20We only had three because we were special. I had two killers with me. So, and then he got us loaded on weed. And I said, well, get us loaded on heroin. So the three of us tried to get loaded. He got two of us loaded on heroin. One guy just woke up. And afterwards, I asked him, how come he couldn't do him? And he said, did you ever get loaded on heroin? He said, no. But your mind doesn't know how to work. Do you understand? Your mind doesn't know how to react. So if I tell you to do something while you're hypnotized and you haven't done it before or you don't know how to do it, you'll just wake up.

1:37:10And that's what kept happening. So, yeah, he hypnotized Danny fucking Trejo and his two cellmates. But one of the dudes hadn't done heroin before. And Danny goes on to say that when you do heroin, apparently you throw up. it's quite likely that you're going to throw up at some point and danny and the other guy that had done it threw up and the dude that hadn't didn't yeah this is the thing this is a real thing uh for some things like i absolutely and i i'm a hypnotist uh and that was just part of learning all of this brain stuff i went to many different hypnosis schools and trainings and stuff I don't think that you could do it with like mushrooms or LSD or anything like that because it's a such a brain connective and massively immersive experience.

1:38:05It's too complex to replicate. Yeah, like if alcohol, you can get someone drunk very easily on hypnosis. Heroin, maybe like you're kind of creating some of that euphoria. but initially you want to create the negative conditions of the thing first so your body believes that it's possible and your brain's easier at connecting or at making bad shit happen like vomiting yeah it's way easier for your brain to default to negative this is why your ancestors would always confuse a a bear for a rock and not a rock for a bear there, maybe the other way around. But so you get the negative thing first and then your brain's like, wow, this is really easy.

1:38:49Then once you do that, you're like, this time you're not going to have this negative thing, but you have all the other positive benefits of this. There was a guy in the 1980s, I can't remember his name. Maybe I think it was Marshall Silver, but I think it was him. But there was this program called Drug of Choice where you could order an audio tape and And you can order like the marijuana audio tape. And if you've ever done it before, like it will kind of recreate that experience of that drug. I've never tried it or anything, but it absolutely is possible. Going back to the deception detecting stuff, what's the best way to get the truth out of someone quickly?

1:39:27In what situation? Normal conversation between you and someone that you think is being deceptive. It's cordial. You're not going to do anything too nefarious. How do you get the truth out of someone? It's socialize, minimize, rationalize, and project. You say, Chris, look, I know that I think everybody's going to understand. If something happened, I think everybody's going to understand. And I promise you, it's not a big deal to me. That's minimized. And it makes perfect sense. Everything lined up the way it did and should happen the way it did. That's not a big deal. And frankly, it wasn't your fault.

1:39:58These people kind of put this in front of you or this thing happened or you downloaded that app and you didn't know what it was. And I think everything's completely fine. But the one thing that's always been important to you and me is our friendship. And I don't want to lose that. And then hopefully you ask them the question again at the end of that. I wonder what it is. At each stage, I'm trying to think about if it was me, what I'm trying to hold on to. What it is that I'm grasping for. And I think part of it is, it feels like treading water and someone throwing you a lifeline so that you're less alone in the discomfort and the loss, the confusion of trying to hold this thing together.

1:40:53Someone sees why I did this thing. Yeah. And it's not that big of a deal anyway. if I am to admit it, but they're there with me. I think a lot of it is around I'm not going to have to bear this burden alone anymore. Yeah. Trying to sort of feel what comes up as you're role-playing this bike stealing. Yeah, those are the four reasons that your brain will kind of resist telling the truth. People won't understand. This is a huge deal. It doesn't make sense why I did this, and it's all my fault. So I just want to alleviate those four things. Yes, yes, yes. As fast as possible. Yes, the alleviation.

1:41:40Why can't people relax? What's the truth about emotional debt? I've heard you talk about this. Dude, this is a big one. I think this goes back to what we talked about at the very beginning, was people carrying around shame. and everybody thinks that they're the only one. If we're really, really honest with ourselves, like we walk around every day, we have this, we conceal shame because there are a lot of institutions that are around today that have made shame into an institution, like social enforcement and shame. And everyone thinks it's just me. I'm the only one hiding the shit from everybody else.

1:42:28If I start becoming real, everyone's going to leave me. I'm going to be abandoned by my friends. I'm going to get outcast and judged. I have to keep hiding this. And everyone thinks it's just them. The cool thing is that it's literally 100 % of people. It's every single human being is out there carrying the exact same shit as you, and they all think it's just them. It's saddening, but I think it's beautiful at the same time that we really do share a lot more in common, especially with the things that we hide from each other than a lot of us would be willing to admit. So when we encounter emotional debt, this is typically when I'm a little kid, what are the patterns I had to develop to earn friends and keep friends to feel safe or to attain some kind of social reward, like appreciation or love or something like that.

1:43:27So if something in my childhood made one of those three things happen, friends, safety, and rewards, then the brain says, oh, this worked? I'm going to make an app out of this shit. So your brain makes an app and says, I know exactly how to produce this thing, So I'm going to make an app and I'm going to run that app all the time. So for the first couple of years, it's an app that you're consciously clicking on in social situations. By the time you're like probably 12 or 13, that's solidified in your behavior. And then fast forward, you've got a 34-year-old woman working in an office who had to kiss some bully's ass in middle school.

1:44:07And that's all she does as an adult. So we carry all these little childhood things without knowing it, like this loaded childhood backpack. It's gone from being an app to being source code. Yeah. Beautifully said. Yes. And we carry it in adulthood without knowing. And you can look at just about any adult in the world and say, you know, if we went back in time, what did you do to do friends, safety, and rewards back in childhood? and then you say, oh, you came to me for help with this XYZ thing. Look at your eight-year-old self. Let's go back in time and take a look at him. And then you're like, oh, wow, that's it.

1:44:53I mean, that's all I was trying to do. And that is emotional debt. And every time we're not dealing with a lot of that stuff directly, every time we hide it from someone else, We're withdrawing from account and we're kind of overdrafting everything in our life. So concealment is one of the most exhausting, cognitively exhausting things that there is when it comes to human behavior. Concealment is more mentally taxing than doing calculus. Like just trying to act like you've got your shit together in a social situation, like faking it hard is harder than calculus. to our brains. So, I mean, fuck.

1:45:39It sucks. I mean, a lot of us are paying this emotional debt.

1:45:47And I think that's it. It's like the costume is heavy. The costumes that we're wearing just get heavier and heavier because we keep adding stuff on it. And a lot of us, by the time we hit 18, 19 years old were like a decorator crab. You know what a decorator crab is? Can we bring up a picture of a decorator crab? So these crabs will go around their whole life and find shit on the beach and stick it and glue it onto their shells somehow. Protection? Ornaments? Maybe distraction? Maybe like a mating ornament? I don't know why they do it. Yeah, and they'll decorate their bodies with all kinds of crazy stuff.

1:46:33Okay. They do that by hand, and it's not part of their body at all. So that looks like it's picked up sea urchin spikes, maybe. And stuck it on somehow. If you go back to the search and go one to the right of that image, right there. That guy found some Froot Loops or something down there on the ocean. So they just stick little barnacles and stuff all over their bodies. And we're kind of like this. We go through life and we're like, you know what? I'm going to, that guy did this one thing to protect himself. I'm going to, I'm going to stick that on. So we're walking around with all of this stuff on us.

1:47:07That's not us at all. It's not me. And then we go back to that thing. Like we originally talked about. It was like, I have to go my whole life knowing that no one's ever known me. And that sucks. And that's emotional debt. How do you advise people to process emotions so that it doesn't get deposited into the bank account or used to withdraw from the bank account? I think physicality is the best. There's a guy, his name is Dr. David Bercelli, and he invented this thing called trauma, well, discovered this thing called trauma release exercise. It's been known that we go into these things called neurogenic tremors all the time, where our body looks like kind of like a little seizure, where there's little tremors going through your body.

1:47:54But if you watch like a polar bear get tranquilized by some researcher and And it's like a paralytic tranquilizer. The polar bear is like laid out on the ground, but he's conscious. Like can you imagine how terrifying? It's like worse than an alien abduction. That's like an alien abduction for us. So this polar bear goes through trauma. And what is the first thing that happens? The anesthesia thing starts wearing off and his body goes into these convulsions and shaking movements and big breaths. And it's all completely autonomic. He's not really consciously controlling any of it. He's just letting his body do what it does.

1:48:33Squirrels do the same thing. After an impala gets bit by a tiger. So I've seen zebras do the same thing. Yeah, zebras. And Robert Sapolsky wrote a book about a lot of this stuff, about how nature knows what to do. It doesn't suppress healing mechanisms. It's called Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. But they figured out that humans suppressed this tremor mechanism. Why do you think that is? To avoid being seen as strange by the people around us? This is an indication of weakness. I was bothered. Yeah, I think you hit the nail perfectly on the head there. Like there's some weird, if I jiggle around on the floor in front of the tribe, they're going to think I'm sick.

1:49:11What if they throw me over the cliff like old Jimmy last year when he was sick? Well, if nothing else, even if they correctly identify it, they don't think that you've got leprosy or you've gone insane. What they do know is that your capacity has been breached. Yeah. your nervous system's ability to withstand this was taken over the edge. You overclocked yourself, you were overclocked by somebody else, which is an indication of weakness. Yeah. It's so true. But he basically, he's not teaching you a technique. He's just helping you to find the switch in your body that you've been suppressing your entire life.

1:49:48And we had to do it after a deployment that I was, I did 20 years in the military. So I, did a bunch of deployments. But one of these deployments, we came back, it was rough, but we had to go through this trauma-releasing exercise under a different brand name than this, Dr. Burselli. But it was maybe the most profound emotional transformation I've ever made in my life other than psychedelics. It's unbelievable. And your body knows how to do it. Every mammal on earth does this automatically and it is life changing and it's free. It's totally free. You go on YouTube and learn how to do it. And it's, it's unbelievable.

1:50:29And it's every mammal does it. And during this lady's presentation to us, when we got back from deployment, she says, raise your hand if you've ever seen a depressed squirrel

1:50:42or a zebra, like a zebra doesn't get bit by a crocodile and go back to his tribe. We're like, guys, I had a shit day and I need to curl up under that tree for like nine days and people need to bring me food. That doesn't happen. Somehow they're over stuff a lot quicker than we get over stuff, even though we make more meaning about the situation than the zebras do. How do you come to think about the role of shame in people's lives? I think shame has been institutionalized on purpose by many different places. And we learn as we're little kids, like if I feel shame about something, I need to conceal it.

1:51:20And I've learned a new part of me that I can wall off and I don't need to show anybody. So if I'm ashamed about anything, shame doesn't make you a good person. And I think a lot of people think that if I feel ashamed about something that makes me moral, that makes me good as a human being. It doesn't, it just ruins your life. It doesn't make you a good person. I learned an interesting thing from Rob Henderson where a book that he was reading taught somebody's guilt seems to be proportional to their perceived likelihood of being caught. Someone's guilt, the amount of guilt that you feel, tends to be proportional to how likely you perceive it that you're going to be caught for whatever you're guilty about.

1:52:13Wow. That's really good. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah. That our level of guilt for something that we know we can't be caught for is so much less. Now, obviously, the scales have a bunch of different things going on here. So on one side, there might be the severity of what you did. You could kill somebody and immediately watch them be eaten by an alligator hole or a python or something, and you go, well, there's no chance, but it's such a huge transgression of what your typical behavior would be that that's something that you would take very badly. Or you could have something that's much smaller, but has a much higher likelihood of getting caught.

1:52:48You threw chewing gum down, but you threw it down right at the teacher's feet and you don't know if he saw or not. And that would be a big deal. And then there's sort of everything in between that. Those are the two, that's the spectrum of crime, by the way, there's chewing gum and killing someone. on. Those are the two ends, the Overton window of crime. And I just love that idea that the level of guilt that we feel about anything that we've done, it's not just the severity of whatever it is. It's not just your consciousness coming in saying like that was not your best self speaking or acting or whatever.

1:53:24How likely is it that I think that I'm going to be caught? And as that gets closer and closer and closer, your level of guilt increases. Yeah. You know, thinking about with the Epstein files, the day that the Epstein files came out. Yeah. What? We saw a lot of people get real quiet while they were waiting to see what was released. well if you think about what that day must have been like for those people horrible you're certainly not going to chalk it up if you're a zebra you're going home and telling your family i had a shit day today i got the equivalent of bit on the ass by an alligator but it happened in the court of public opinion uh however in some ways the um uh concealment tax that was being paid, you know your names in them.

1:54:19You know your names in them. You know that there are being investigations and releases are happening. And yeah, I mean, you could hope. This is something else. I was having this conversation last night. You don't need karma to deliver spiritual justice, right? All that karma is, is someone repeating their patterns and behaviors enough times until reality finally gives them what they deserve. So imagine that you're a bad person. You treat most people that you interact with poorly. You screw them over in one form or another, maybe the same way, maybe in different ways. The only way that you make it to the end of your life without that coming to the surface is by basically beating the odds.

1:55:02You've stacked the deck against yourself. And what you're hoping is that you can somehow sort of, you know, tiptoe Captain Sparrow dance your way through this minefield and avoid all of the different tripwires and get to the other side and... And, oh, fuck, I did it. And then you die or whatever. That sense that a lot of people have of that person fucking, they're just desserts. Like how has nobody cottoned on to this thing that I think that I see about this person? And maybe you're right. Let's assume that you're right about your character assessment about this person, that they're a bad person and that stuff should have gotten to them.

1:55:45what someone is doing is basically stacking against the deck against themselves but presuming that you've got a relatively functioning conscience that concealment burden is going to start to stack up and stack up and stack up and especially if you know that there's an investigation coming and that people are getting closer and maybe the guilt so yeah some people sure they are bad people who make it to the end of their life without having been rumbled but the only way that they did that was basically through luck they fluked their way through this lop to make it to the end of it which is rare most people end up getting what they deserve my my mentor used to call that their that person's safe is full like they've locked up a whole lot of stuff you know it's just it's ready to bust open and they're easier to get to confess they're easier to do all kinds of stuff because their safe is so full that's concealment burden is high yeah level of emotional stress ambient emotional stress also high and the need to release that pressure the release valve thing yeah and that's that's not even the economic pressure around the world that's the emotional pressure inside.

1:57:02And we get to choose the release valve form. What we've spoken about to do with shame and childhood patterns related to the trauma triangle, is that all wrapped up inside of that? I think it might be. I don't know. I don't think we know shit about consciousness. There's so many people who have so much certainty that I would be embarrassed showing that level of certainty about, oh, this is exactly how the brain works. I've studied neuroscience for nine years. We have zero clue how the brain works. We don't know where memories are stored. We don't even know what they're made of. And they're doing all these experiments now that are showing that consciousness might be non-local.

1:57:43I think you've had a few people on. Panpsychists. Yeah. It just looks like that's starting to explain a whole lot of stuff that we were calling anomalies that just might not be an anomaly. And Rupert Sheldrake is one of these guys. Friend of the show. Yeah. Dude, I love that guy so much. Morphic resonance is such a fucking cool idea, man. What's interesting to me, stuff like the Danny Trejo thing is a good example of that, but that's story-based. Stories stick with you for a good while. If you hear about a dude that was a famous cult leader and a guy that's a famous movie actor being in jail together, wearing a rope around his waist, getting loaded on heroin through hypnosis are you just i'll i'll forget my children's names before i forget that right on my deathbed yeah um but the sheldrake thing with the morphic resonance that dogs are able to detect when their owners are coming home even when they alter the vehicle and the time and the mode of transport and the person and they go to the window the did you see the one about um is it starlings dunking their heads into glass milk bottles did you ever learn this one no this is fucking crazy let me hear so um there was a type of bird that existed i want to say in in the uk during world war ii before world war ii and the glass milk bottles that would be put out by the milkman on everyone's front doorstep.

1:59:18Did that ever happen in the US? Yeah, I think before my time. You used to have a milkman? Yeah. Okay, that exists. Okay, I don't know about this country. It's like three seconds old. I want a millennia old country like mine. Anyway, I like this place. I spent too much time in a Costco this morning and there was a glass bottle that you would leave out and it would have a foil lid and the foil coloring on the lid would be semi-skimmed, full-fat, gold-top, whatever. And birds had realized that they could pierce the foil, because it's only thin, and they could stick their beaks in, and they could drink the top filtering of this thing.

1:59:57And you would often, apparently, because if you've ever put your finger into a corona to shove a lime down, we'd sort of, fuck, I'm stuck. You really need to wiggle it to get it out. And a lot of the time, people would arrive at the front doorstep and just see an upended bird. It's like a Molotov cocktail, but it's got a sparrow sticking out the top of... I can light this. And then during World War II, all of that stopped because of the Battle of Britain and the blackout. There were no milk deliveries. So that meant that all of the birds had stopped to learn this thing. For generations of birds had stopped to learn this thing.

2:00:40And then when it came back, it had taken a long time for this to be developed. And they'd done a statistical analysis of this. Rupert's guys had done a statistical analysis of this. And as soon as the milkman began doing it again, immediately a generation of birds that had never seen a milkman and never seen milk bottles started doing it straight away. And you've seen this stuff where they teach mice to solve a maze in LA and mice that are in New York are able to solve the maze more quickly. Yeah, which is insane. There's a 10-year-old boy in Japan, 10 years old, that was the first in the world, just recently, maybe this year, proved that a butterfly retains the memory of its ancestors.

2:01:26And a butterfly memory also survives caterpillar metamorphosis. Because it's fully liquidized. Caterpillar going to a butterfly is completely liquidized. Yeah. And the memory goes through not just generations, but goes through the entire chrysalis phase of butterfly, whatever that's called, transformation. How did the 10-year-old boy prove it? Lavender. So when they're caterpillars, he gives them a tiny little shock. But the boy was so kind that he shocked them on his own arm so he could feel it too, like with the caterpillars, because he didn't want to give them too much shocking. but he exposes him to lavender and a shock at the same time over and over and over you know three times a day maybe per caterpillar a little electric shock yeah but it's like a large like a tens unit pad but it's like that big i saw it and he put it on his arm and he gently folded over it because he didn't want to hurt the caterpillar you know he considered them his friends it's not like this modern scientist who would just yeah let's torture his ass um so this is pavlovian stuff.

2:02:35Yeah. And then when they become butterflies, he built this tube that's a Y shape. So they fly down this thing and they've got this fork in the road with sugar water at the end of both. And one of them has a little cotton ball that has lavender on it. And he proved that these butterflies that he had trained, the caterpillar, went straight off to the right away from the lavender because they had it associated with negative memory. And their children did the same thing, or their offspring did the exact same thing. And have you read Irreducible by Federico Fagin? What's that? It's kind of an argument against materialist reductionism.

2:03:17Okay. And you're familiar with the concept of, it's basically like if there's a, let's say like, Chris let's go understand music we're gonna go understand music we have 500 years to figure this out so we go to the Philharmonic and all the instruments are out there we're like you know we're gonna do first let's chop this cello over there into 6 ,000 pieces and study it for 10 years under a microscope and we understand music zero but we've broken everything down into its tiny little parts and then finally somebody says we've had a massive breakthrough we found the sheet music in the front of the orchestra.

2:03:56And then the lead scientist is like, good, cut it up, put it under the microscope. And then we're like, the sheet music makes the music. So of course we can just put it under the microscope. And I don't know why, but this music looks like paper. It doesn't look like music. So the argument is like, if we keep just breaking things down into elements, we're missing the substance of what's really there. You familiar with Daniel Schmachtenberger? Do you know who that is? No. It's a surname that you don't forget. He's been on the show twice now, and he's got great talk on emergence. I'm going to send it to you.

2:04:34It's a little bit, it's very dense, actually. I fell in love with this guy's thinking. He's been a good friend ever since. But he's got this idea, basically, which is kind of basic, right, that there can be combinations of things that allow properties to emerge that individually do not. You know this if you put sodium in water or whatever, and you get an interesting reaction. But the same thing is true with regards to what you're saying here, that analyzing things in isolation don't explain what happens when they come together. And the inverse of this, which I first heard from him, but then Naval reused was human beings locally reverse entropy.

2:05:22Locally reverse entropy, the entire universe aiming toward entropy and we locally reverse it for a brief time. Ultimately, the universe is going to win, right? The battle is ours, but the war is always going to be theirs. But I just love that. I love that idea. I love the idea that we locally reverse entropy. It's really cool. It is beautiful. I mean, it's like somebody studying DMT and saying, oh, yeah, it activates a receptor on your 5-HT2A serotonin receptor. Like, yeah. Yeah, that's what's made our ancestors see the exact same thing for 4 ,500 years. That's what creates the entities. You know, it's silly to think that we can really comprehend everything.

2:06:06We can't even define or understand consciousness. And we're like, oh yeah, it's a receptor activator. It's a receptor agonist. And I just think that there's way too much certainty about this stuff. We need more scientists just finishing a few sentences with as far as we know. If we just had that a little bit more of as far as we know, I think science would advance a lot faster because it's dogmatic at this point. I want to talk about the DNT stuff. I feel like there's a million things to get into that we haven't, but let's bring this one into land here because this has been really, really fascinating.

2:06:48What's this new show where you told your team if we don't get death threats within the first six months, we're not doing our job? So I – the origin of this is I took an Adderall one morning. Great start to a day. And – Go on. I got distracted doing some work and I was like, shit, I didn't take an Adderall. And I took another one. which I've never done is that my brain was not prepared for this. And I also do a little daily microdose action and all that mixed together. And I was just sitting there at my desk typing or going through emails or something. I was like, you know what? Randomly, I was like, I need to start a TV station.

2:07:32And I did. That does sound like the sort of thing someone who's taken two tabs of Adderall and some mushrooms would come up with. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, you know what? I could beat Fox. I could beat mainstream news. So we built and own a television studio now, and we have a daily news show that's about to start coming out. Maybe by the time this is released, we'll have a video out. It's called Station One on YouTube. We have one or two videos out, but we're going to start daily news. and we're also going to, every day you'll get the news, but you'll also get how everything that you're being shown as different stories are actually connected.

2:08:12All of the PSYOPs layers with actual registers and receipts for every single thing of how the news is being used to frame a narrative, all of that will be made public. And then every single day on the news, we'll tell you in the next 72 hours, here's what to look out for. If you see these three words, in a bill that Congress passes at like 2 a.m., you need to watch out for this thing. If this oil company invests in this one thing in the next four days, you need to watch out for this. This is probably going to happen. So every single day, it should feel, and we follow the format of the president's daily brief from the director of the CIA.

2:08:50And that's the daily news. It's like the president's daily brief exact format. And I think it's going to be good. I think people are going going to like it and there's no narrative uh there's no left and right uh politics which doesn't really exist uh and i think i think it's gonna be pretty cool heck yeah chase hughes ladies and gentlemen chase you're awesome man i'm looking forward to speaking to you next time me too thanks all right see you next time everyone dude fucking crushed it so good i appreciate it