The Hidden Psychology Of Highly Sensitive People - Dr Sasha Hamdani - #1147

26:24Basically, people have a big ick, most of society has a big ick with men talking about deep emotions, especially difficult emotions, but they have far fewer if it comes from a place of prestige than one of poverty. A guy who's already down on his luck and might not have much going for him talking about how much things are are hurting doesn't get the same kind of sympathy that Chris Bumstead, six-time Olympia world champion, one of the most muscular guys on the planet, that he gets. He can cry and talk about how he broke down in his girlfriend's arms six weeks before he's about to win the world championship because he's got all of these trappings and trimmings of masculinity that make it seem like it's not coming from a place of weakness.

27:04It's coming from a place of strength. But again, And Chris doesn't need the same kind of support because he's already got a community around him of a supportive wife and all of these successes that are continuing to move him down the track. The people that really need it are the guys that kind of don't have anything going for them. And they're presumably going to be the biggest risk as well. But yeah, that's my that's my stop box as well. to just, I really wish that there was more latitude. Like speaking as a guy that feels feelings, I just, I did a full week retreat working exclusively on emotions, 12 hours a day for seven days in Northern California last year.

27:39Two weeks ago, I just did a Jhana meditation retreat, which is exclusively working on conductivity of emotions, a silent meditation retreat for seven days, like sitting on the cushion for, I don't know, six or eight hours a day. So that was like both of those things for me, and me trying to get below the neck, Like me trying to move away from a lot of the judge, not even judgment, like felt scrutiny and existing patterns of how is this going to show up in the world? Can I operate this way inside of my business? Is this something that I can do that's publicly acceptable? It's like, it doesn't, you can go and work on this thing in isolation and then come back.

28:20But yeah, I know what it's like to be a really sensitive kid growing up that didn't have anywhere to put it because you're in a working class blue collar environment or the people around you don't notice or don't have the tools to be able to help. and it can drive you to do really amazing things, but it also creates a bunch of coping mechanisms that mean, huh, I had this weird gift. Like I had this depth of connection that I could have had with the world and I contorted it, alchemized it, you could say, because it went from something that was a challenge to something that you've turned into something good.

28:56Yeah. But it is kind of a denial of a bit of yourself as well at the same time. So that's been, this has been a, it's one of the reasons I was excited to speak to you because it's a very personal, like super interesting topic. I think it's fascinating. A lot of emotionally sensitive people also, they go through life and they hide that part of them because there is so much internalized shame about like, you're not supposed to be sensitive. You're supposed to be strong. You're supposed to be able to handle stuff. I mean, male and females. I mean, this is something that as a human condition, people are celebrated for like, you were able to get on the other side of that adversity.

29:30Like you did so well. You didn't complain. You didn't do. And so like you from a young age, you just kind of learn to shut down that part of yourself or become really embarrassed. I remember being like a kid and, you know, my mom, something would happen and it would like hit my ear the wrong way. And I would think that, oh, my God, like I'm so embarrassed or something. And I would like go and hide. I would like hide under a table or hide in a closet or because I was just like embarrassed and sad and everything happening all at once. and eventually I was like this is young like eight I was like this is not conducive for me moving forward I'm not functioning well yeah this is I can't do that when I'm grown up and so then you just start hiding it so if you're emotional or if you're having a hard day you lie about it you're like I'm fine I'm fine I'm fine it's not a big deal I don't want to talk about it or and sometimes I would be like I don't want to talk about it with other people because I'll cry and that'll prove that I'm emotionally sensitive.

30:33And so I hear that story a lot as well. The insight that suppression isn't the same thing as strength is, I don't know, kind of world-changing that what you're doing if you're an emotionally sensitive person that's swallowing them down is you're performing the role of somebody who's got composure. Yeah. But that's not the same as having composure. That's not the same. You're performing the role of somebody that hasn't felt the thing. That's not the same as not feeling the thing. And you've got this line, the real challenge lies in not feeling deeply, but in living in a world that doesn't always know how to support that sensitivity.

31:10That's a good quote. It's a great line. It really is. The real challenge lies not in feeling deeply, but in living in a world that doesn't always know how to support that sensitivity. Yeah. The world feels very spiky. Every time I come back from retreat, I always feel like everything is so tender. I know. And then what you get to see is how operating in a world that's incredibly intense, very chaotic, fast moving, you have to create these strange patterns and coping mechanisms and wall yourself off and guard yourself just so that you can move through the day. And that's fine, right? You don't want to be a whimpering blob on the floor.

31:49I don't want to be a puddle. I don't want to be a puddle of emotions. I want to be able to show up. But then also there are bits of your experience that you're denying yourself. and there are strengths that you can have that come along for this. That's a question. What are the strengths of highly sensitive people? What are the strengths of people with rejection-sensitive dysphoria? Yeah, I think being able, again, I think that there is a direct pipeline between being highly emotionally sensitive and being highly emotionally intelligent. And I think that's just how you deal with that sensitivity.

32:18And so some of the strengths that can come with that emotional sensitivity are, number one, you have a deep, deep, deep understanding of other people's emotional insides. And I think that's part of, you know, what led me into psychiatry in the first place. That's part of why I've continued to enjoy it as much as I have, because I think that you can intimately understand when people are talking about their experience or like you can even understand, you know, sometimes I'll have a patient come into my office and you start asking them questions and, you know, their answer is like, I don't know. Like, OK, so can you tell me anything in the past two months that has really made you upset?

33:00I don't know. Like, and so then it's for a lot of people, that's like a stone wall. You don't really know where to go from there. But for some people who are highly emotionally sensitive, you're picking up like, OK, I'm picking up from like previous body cues that they were giving me when they were talking about their family or when they were answering in certain ways. You're just like, OK, well, there's some tension there. And so you start asking about other questions. So you're picking up stuff that you might not even have clocked as it was happening at the time, but you've amalgamated and you know exactly what direction to go.

33:29I think that's an incredibly wonderful thing to have. And I think that, yeah, that outside of just psychiatry, I think that does make you a good friend. It makes you a good partner. It makes you a good parent. I think it's so helpful with parenting. So I think it's just that huge scope of understanding that emotional condition. Does emotional sensitivity have an impact on people's self-esteem?

33:59Yes, but sometimes it can be negative. If you're highly emotionally sensitive, I think, and you're used to reading emotional data negatively, sometimes that can start to impact your self-esteem. And you're walking into a room and self-worth and self-confidence are different. But you walk into a room and you start to feel like, OK, maybe I'm not wanted here and things like that. And you're reading emotional information and possibly attaching a narrative on there that doesn't actually exist. That can impact your self-esteem for sure. But there are other times, like, for example, in the work that I do as a psychiatrist, because of that emotional sensitivity, I'm celebrated for that.

34:40And I think it's a really unique field to be in as an emotionally sensitive person because that's one of the areas where I get the most validation. because people feel like they have been understood for the first time. The supplement industry is full of products making claims that they can't back, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Momentus. Their co-founder, Jeff Byers, played in the NFL and saw firsthand just how wildly the quality of supplements can vary. So he built Momentus around a higher standard. Every product from Momentus uses evidence-backed ingredients, transparent doses, and independent third-party testing.

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35:44That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. What's the difference between confidence and self-esteem? I think self-esteem is like inherent. Inherent in like that's you. Confidence is more, I think, what you're capable of and what you're, you know, your confidence and your skills and what you can do in that moment. So confidence, I think, fluctuates and self-esteem is just self-worth is your base. Okay. Does that mean that people with RSD are more likely to need constant reassurance? Yes. Right. Yes, it is. Because I think what's happening is that they're getting this negative input or potentially it's not actually negative.

36:30They're reading neutral input as negative or positive input as negative. Yes. That's happened too. But you're reading it as negative. And so there are times where you get so stuck in these amygdala loops of fear and your stress hormones are like just cascading through your body that you're just like, I just need someone else to tell me that I'm not like that this isn't actually the case. And so it's a form of reality testing. Do you think that you can build self-esteem without external validation? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think with, you know, I guess success is kind of external validation. But doing, I think there is stuff that you can work on your self-esteem.

37:19One of the biggest things to help with self-esteem, I think, is understanding your own brain. Because I think if you have this, if you are able to de-stigmatize for yourself, like, this isn't a personal feeling. This is just truly neurobiologically how my brain is working. I think that can bolster your self-esteem pretty tremendously. Does this mean that compliments are hard for these people to believe? That somebody pays you a compliment? Is it quite likely that it's going to be brushed off by someone with RSD? Sometimes. Sometimes. I think it depends on how they're receiving it in the moment.

37:53Like, and what the relationship is with the person. Like, for example, if it's a relationship where, you know, a sibling that's always kind of been a straight broker and they get a compliment, you know, you might not feel like I don't trust that compliment. That's weird. If it might be they're already self-conscious about something and they don't know the other person well and they give them a compliment, maybe that hits their ear weird because they're already kind of self-conscious about it. It really depends on where they are in that moment. OK. But it's possible. How does emotional sensitivity show up in relationships?

38:28um it you sound exasperated i know because it's such a broad question um i think emotional sensitivity plays a role in every relationship like whether you're highly emotionally sensitive or not i think relationships are just kind of this minefield for emotions anyway because for in a very real way you're putting yourself in a spot of vulnerability you are you know i mean theoretically in vulnerability where you're exposing parts of yourself to another person and you're having to navigate those waters and see, you know, you're really like putting it out there. And if the person likes you or doesn't like you, you're putting yourself out there to possibly receive rejection, possibly receive criticism.

39:10So I think that for a highly emotionally sensitive person can get really tricky. And people, I know a lot of people that are highly emotionally sensitive, who have rejection-sensitive dysphoria, who don't want to date anymore. They're like, this is too hard. I can't do that because as soon as there is a delay in texting, I've convinced myself that this person isn't interested and I've re-downloaded an app. Why does waiting for a text feel so unbearable? I think it's just that lack of that immediate answer and that knowledge, your brain just fills in a narrative in that empty space. And so like, for example, if they were interested, they would respond to me right away.

39:53If like, I've even had people who have thought and I've thought this in the past, if I'm sitting on someone who hasn't texted back, my brain will go to, well, they're with somebody else. Like they're not thinking about me, they're with somebody else. And like by the time they respond, like they got off of their shift, I have already moved on like I'm angry with them. And then, you know, it takes a while for me to recalibrate and figure out. But that sometimes that's where my brain is gone. Right. So does this mean that anxious people sometimes will sabotage relationships? Yes. Before they've even had the chance to be rejected?

40:31Yes. How does that show up? I mean, that was my pattern in all of my 20s. What would you do? Like as soon as people got close enough and I was worried that I was, you know, like we're getting a little bit too close and now I have to show you actual parts of myself or I'm afraid that if you know certain parts of myself or you know that I'm really, really emotionally sensitive and I overthink absolutely everything that you say, you're going to leave. So I'm just going to end it. So I've never been broken up with. ever because i would just like you can't fire me i quit yeah i quit i'm out of here so i would just leave before and and it was literally no fault of their own right they would not be the cause of this big fear of abandonment yeah well i mean not even abandonment just like because it wouldn't be abandonment because i would opt i would rather be alone i like but i I don't want you to say something negative about me.

41:36I don't want you to point out something that I already fear about myself. I don't want you to say those words that you don't want to be with me. Like, I'm fine alone. I just don't want you to say that. Because that would be a judgment on you. And that would be you being pushed away. Yeah, I'm fine by myself. But I just don't want you to push me away. Okay. Vulnerability hangovers as well. After you've opened up having this period of time. What is vulnerability hangover? To me, it is. And like for so many of my patients, it's this period where you feel like you've shared too much and you've been too vulnerable and you have like let in somebody else a little bit into your internal environment.

42:15And so you've you've cracked that door open so they can see that kind of stuff. And so then what my brain does is I just spin and spin and spin and think about like, OK, well, now they know this. They probably know this. And they probably they're probably thinking that I'm just like a huge weenie and that I can't handle anything. And that I, you know, and that and I think it's like a direct shot from being very vulnerable to being very embarrassed and then pulling away. Yeah, it feels to me like the common thread between a lot of this is not really the feeling of the emotions deeply. It's the story that you tell yourself about what those emotions mean and what other people might think about you for having them.

42:54It's like a lot of shame wrapped up in this. At least that's how I'm interpreting it. I think if you were to look at emotional sensitivity kind of as a spectrum, I mean, there is a place where, you know, maybe you're not as emotionally sensitive as you might should be. Dana White. I don't want to say it. Then there is a place where, you know, you're you're ups and you're kind of regulated up in the middle. There's a place where I think you're highly emotionally sensitive. And then I think when you move further down that pathologically sensitive. Yeah, I think that's that's more rejection sensitive dysphoria.

43:29Right. So we're talking about the most sensitive. That's what I say. Yeah. And you consider this to be you. Yeah. Right. OK. But you've managed to operate in the world. I mean, you've chosen a very specific. industry to be in. Yeah. Right. I think this is the thing, again, if we were to take you at one end of the spectrum and Dana White at the other, physiologically also two very different humans, what has happened there, which is, I guess, pretty great, Dana White would probably make a fucking horrendous psychiatrist. And I don't think that you would be fantastic as the CEO of the UFC of fighting sport.

44:03You don't know. Well, maybe. You might be true. But there are dispositions and there are situations that you put yourself into, if you were in a relationship with somebody who was go, go, go, doesn't really think about emotions that much, isn't able to sit with you in the muck, isn't able to hold space that much, that would be a bad type of partnership. I'm sure you could make it work. Maybe you could even have a flourishing relationship, but it would be done by like gritting your teeth and gripping the bar incredibly aggressively. The same thing for Dana White. If Dana White was in a relationship or in a business where he constantly had to sort of be very fluffy and very soft and sort of patient, sensitive, more demure, you know, moving at a more delicate pace.

44:44I don't think he might be able to make it work. I'm sure that he is a flexible, competent human. But if he does that, he's going to be like not fully utilizing this part of his capacity in the same way as the world loses a great psychiatrist if you become the CEO of the UFC. So this, and this to me is like compatibility, the more that I think about it and the older that I get, compatibility is kind of everything in life, okay, I have this type of a disposition. I can work on it and I can try and smooth us some of the edges that do feel a little bit close to pathological or just a bit maladaptive, right?

45:18It's firing at the wrong times. And I want it to be a little bit more this and a bit less that. But largely you have a set and a suite of strengths that come along with this particular disposition that you have. And you can put yourself in a situation where those aren't things that you need to curtail. They're things that you can use as a platform and a springboard. yeah i pay a lot of attention to stuff right i pay a lot of attention specifically words words was like my first love as a kid i read a lot as a kid and now it means that when i build brands like i built this thing i built this podcast word play and coming up with cool copy and spending obsessive amounts of time the for the first run that we ever did you'll see that there's three icons on the back of this can yeah one of the icons was half a point off offset on the back and this had gone through, like we sold millions of cans and no one had noticed.

46:08And one day I picked the can up and I was like, guys, there's something wrong with the back of the can. And the only reason that that was able to be seen was because of that level of attention to detail. Now, is that going to be the difference between this being a billion dollar brand and not? Probably not. However, that same trait. Delicious. Wonderful. That's from a board certified psychiatrist, nonetheless. Yeah. Yeah. My point being, I work in industries where that attention to detail can be used properly, right? It can be used really well. Let's say that I was an architect or an engineer that helped to build bridges, or I was somebody, maybe a surgeon's assistant or something like that, like really paying attention to how clean the surfaces are, things like that.

46:48That'd be great. If I was in a different industry, I'm not convinced that that level of attention to detail would be so good. So again, what I'm kind of trying to get at here is that for people who think, wow, I feel stuff a lot, or I pay a lot of attention, or I focus on things, I tend to ruminate, I tend to have intrusive thoughts that play out these pantomimes of what might have happened with this person and their motivations. It's like, okay, that can be and should be alchemized in some ways, right? We can work on that. But also, you can just find worlds and domains in which that's like a real fucking superpower.

47:23And I think that trying to get people to not see that suppression is a strength, but to see, okay, the issue is not you being sensitive. The issue is you being in a world that doesn't utilize your sensitivity properly. I think that's a, I don't know, it's just an interesting way to get tactical around. That's how I ended up in psychiatry. So I went into medical school with the hopes of doing pediatrics. My mom's a pediatrician. I was like, that's what I'm going to do. I got through pediatrics and I'm like, this is a little boring. I wish it wasn't, but I was like, I can't be in clinic all day and I also can't be sick every winter.

47:57I can't do it. And so I was like, okay, let me pivot and I'm going to do PEDS ICU. I really thought that was my calling. And it was because I was like, I'm doing all this work from med school and this is the superhero job. I am saving children. There's nothing that is better than that. I went in for my letter of recommendation. Walk into her office. I was like at the door of our office and this woman like stops me at the door and she's like I hope you're not coming in here for a letter and I was like okay what and she's like you cry all the time you cannot do this you will burn out in five seconds and I like I wish and I put this in my book like this story because I was like I like in my brain I was like just say something make a noise respond I couldn't even say anything because I was like she's correct I knew in that moment that she was correct.

48:54Like it, that were every day I went to work that I was in the Peds ICU, I was scared and I was upset. And I like, I, like I would be like reporting to my, um, attending and I would be telling them what happened overnight. And I'm like crying as I'm telling them at the bedside. And so I leave her office and I was sitting in my car and I was okay well i guess what area of medicine can i cry in and that's how i end up in psychiatry and so that's i mean it you finding an environment that can hold all of that emotional sensitivity i think is really important and the same thing goes for friendships and relationships yeah yeah okay Okay, just on the relationship thing, texting, waiting for texts, why is uncertainty so much harder to deal with than bad news?

49:51Because it's not, I think, I think it's the fact that it's not definitive. Hard news, bad news, difficult. But I think at some point you're like, okay, that's really bad. But here are the steps I need to do to make it better. And like, now I can kind of make a game plan. The uncertainty, I will tell you, 10 times out of 10, I will convince myself that a way worse outcome is happening in real time. And so I've already convinced myself that the worst possible outcome is happening, rather than if I actually get the knowledge that something bad is happening, I'm like, okay, that's not as bad as what I thought it would be.

50:33I suppose as well, you can create situations in imagination that defy the laws of physics. Your dead great-grandmother can come back from the grave to laugh at you about the things. That can't even happen. But that's how much our brains abhor having uncertainty, that they would rather fantasize a nightmare than deal with ambiguity. I know that I for one have come up with situations where like then later I'm telling like my mom has taken the brunt of this where I'm telling her all this stuff and she's like what? That's deranged. What is this? How did that come in your brain? Okay, so this must be the same thing, the same dynamic of why ghosting is so damaging because there's no closure.

51:18Yeah. Right. Yeah, there's no closure. And I think also, like, this is, ghosting is just awful. People shouldn't do that. Just so you know. It's just an awful way to communicate. I think this is one of those things where as an emotionally sensitive person, ghosting is not just like, okay, this is the dissolution of the relationship. Your brain automatically goes into, there's something about me that forced this person away. And so that uncertainty starts - It's not that I'm an asshole. It's I'm insufficient. Yes. So it gets turned on you and which I think is such, it's so cruel to do to somebody else.

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52:34So you track trends over time, make sure you're moving in the right direction. And this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is$365 per year, just$1 a day to actually know what's happening inside of your body. And right now you can get$25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save$25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. I'm wondering to sort of take it back to the how RSD and emotional sensitivity shows up in men.

53:06I wonder whether emotionally avoidant men are sometimes just emotionally sensitive men in disguise that don't have enough courage. Yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of times, yes. I think emotionally avoidant men, And, you know, you again, going back to this thing of like men really don't have a lot of space to explore how to be emotionally sensitive. Because, you know, just from a young age, they're told that they can't be. And so they learn how to suppress it and to change it. And so when they're put into situations where they may have to be emotionally sensitive or they may have to, you know, engage in a way that they could get hurt or they could get rejected or something else could trigger sadness or an emotional response, they're just like, nope, I'm out.

53:58I'm just going to pull myself away from this. I mean, I've told you about it. I mean, I've been avoiding in the past because of that. How do you draw the line between emotional sensitivity and emotional fragility? because what we're talking about here is, hey, you have this superpower. There's going to be some challenges that come along with it. But wherever you are on the spectrum from Dana White to yourself, the... I love that we're the extremes. I think you are. I really think you are. I think you're kind of technically different species.

54:27I'm interested in when saying this is actually something that you need to man up about. This is something that you need to get over. This is something that you need to grit your teeth and work through as opposed to you just don't fully understand how emotionally fluid and sensitive I am. Like I feel things deeply, you know, because everybody likes the idea of being validated. Sure. But validation done to the extreme results in no accountability. Yeah. Right. There's no point. If if every emotion that you feel and every response that you have is valid, then you go, OK, in that case, I don't have to work on anything.

55:02I can just be as big of an asshole or a pussy as I want. and never actually, as opposed to, okay, there are some limits that I need to push myself up against. So I think a lot of people will be feeling this as they listen. It's like, right, okay, like these people, this is interesting. Like my sister or my girlfriend is like, she cries at things that I wouldn't usually. And sometimes it takes a while for her to come back down after she's had an emotional event and so on and so forth. Like how does somebody know when it's emotional fragility that should be worked on? When should they push and when should they pivot?

55:32I don't think it's for another person to make that decision. I think it's for the person experiencing that moment. Because like for me, I think this is what that past three years of research has gotten me to. Because for years, I'm like, am I too fragile? Am I too weak? What is wrong? Like, what is this? And I think it, we've just emotionally sensitive people in general have been kind of put and not put but existing in an extremely difficult like right now the world is a hard place to be a human in this is just a weird time to live if you want to feel feelings it is if you don't want to feel feelings it's actually quite a fun place to be in i think you know there's like so much there's so much novelty and there's lots of things that you can do and you can have an infinite number of like the velocity of different stimulus that you can enjoy that's great.

56:24But if you actually want to feel feelings, it's kind of horrendous. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm on the horrendous end. Like, I think existing in the world right now can sometimes be very difficult. But I think that for an emotionally sensitive person, we've also never been given tools. Like, we have been told you're too sensitive, you're too fragile, you're too weak, and you need to kind of strengthen yourself. But no one's told you how to do that. And really what it boils down to is looking at that, like there's that step of us receiving that emotional data and then how do we catch it kind of in that moment so that we can impact either, we're not gonna change the processing because we're still gonna read it, but can we impact the intensity?

57:14Can we impact the duration? Can we get past this and make it a usable moment? And there's skills and tools that come with it. And that's what three years of like pulling from every area of psychology and psychiatry to give tools that would work in the moment and over time. That's what led to this book because I don't think people have that. I never got that. What are the most powerful emotional regulation tools? Okay. So I came up with the Calm Your Mind toolkit, which is 12 of them. And I will tell you that all of them are things that you've probably heard before. You've heard challenge negative thoughts.

57:54You've heard move your body. You've heard delay your reaction. You've heard stuff like that. But I think for an emotionally sensitive person or someone who's going through big emotions in real time, things can get so overwhelming in that moment that it's like when I have that, like, get absolutely flooded emotionally, nothing is happening up here. Like, I can't think or process or, like, utilize what tool am I supposed to use? So this was so helpful for me to actually go through. And in a place where I was regulated, I could be like, OK, this is the tool I want to use and then actually break down the steps, knowing from an emotionally sensitive brain, this is when I'm going to feel blank.

58:33Like now if I have this book that can tell me like step by step what I'm supposed to do, because that's what I wish I had. I just I just want like a guy. I wanted a guide because I think it would have made med school easier. It would have made dating easier. It would have made, you know, the early years of my marriage easier. It would have made parenting easier. I think it's just there. Did that answer your question? Well, I guess pick the top three tools to calm your mind and how do people do them correctly? That was the question. Okay. I think one of my favorite ones is just utilizing movement because I think that there is a tremendous – and I'm not saying like you have to be in like some heavy duty like weightlifting kind of thing and you have to do a certain amount of cardio or something.

59:20I'm saying that when you are incredibly emotionally overloaded, there's a tremendous amount of value in like physical movement and one to like pattern disruption. So you're actually moving to you're getting oxygenated glucose to your brain and hopefully shunting it to that frontal lobe so you can get resources there so you can think and process and override that amygdala in real time. What does that look like? Someone's going through a event where they're emotionally activated. Do they start doing pushups? I mean, whatever flows your boat, man. But I would say like during I the last time I utilized it in real time was in a meeting.

1:00:01And I was talking during the meeting. I was talking about leaving the practice I'd been at for nine years and starting my own practice. And so I'm like they were all of my partners were around me. I felt like I was like I was overcome with guilt and fear about starting something new. And it was just it was a very big moment for me. And I recognized like, OK, this is what I need to do. And even within that, I just from under like I started like just tensing my calves and like moving my legs and just like. And I think when you look at like ADHD in general, because, you know, almost 100 percent of people with ADHD have some some form of RSD or, you know, their their fall on that spectrum.

1:00:45You look at fidgeting and things like that as a form of like emotional regulation and self-stimulation and things like that. You're trying to actually surge some of that dopamine norepinephrine kind of data. OK, movement. Yeah. What next? OK. You're asking me my favorites. So I'm thinking about the ones I've most recently used. One of them I really like, and it's delay your reaction. Because my initial impulse, the minute I get pressed up against the wall or like if I have like this like big emotional stuff that I don't know how to deal with is I respond with urgency. So all of the time, if something is happening, like if there is a delay in a text message, I will be that person who texts four times.

1:01:30Where are you? What's happening? And this is just like a reminder, like if I delay my response, I'm allowing that amygdala to stop spinning as much. And I allow that frontal lobe to come on. And then the narrative I'm telling myself is going to be significantly less negative. And usually by that time, that person has responded. Does that not also create more time and uncertainty though? Here's the deal. I think that if you understand that it's a very purposeful and mindful thing that you're doing. If you know that that's what you're doing for your brain, you're not just like stepping away and like, you're like, okay, well, maybe they'll respond in that time.

1:02:11I'm stepping away because I know that I need to give my brain time to just like stop overheating. Like I want my amygdala to stop spinning out of control. I want my frontal lobe to come online. I want to give it enough time to do that because I know that I will think better. I think that gives me, I know that I'm using a tool. I'm not just sitting there. How has it been being a mom with this? Because when I think about even the well-balanced parents, there is anxiety. Where's my kid? They're late back from soccer practice. I don't know when they're going to come through the door. Who are you going out with this evening?

1:02:48I have to assume that the disposition that you're going into parenting with can be great because you're going to be attuned to your child's needs, but can also be highly chaotic because you're going to feel worried. Yeah. I think, I mean, it's chaotic, but I think all parenting is kind of chaotic, to be honest with you. I think it's just, it's a wild ride. But I think that I'm very lucky because my husband is very measured and calm and patient. And so I think he is like such a good emotional barometer for all of us. And I think that in that context where I feel so much safety and so much, you know, we're all given kind of free reign to explore our feelings and to navigate through life.

1:03:39I think being emotionally sensitive as a parent has been really helpful for me. And it's really helped me kind of understand because kids like can be very annoying. It's just part of being a kid. Well, reliably, they grow up to be annoying adults as well. Yeah, they can be annoying. Totally. But as kids, their stuff like even just like noise and and just like stuff that they do. And, you know, they're not little adults. They're kids. Their frontal lobes aren't developed. They don't know any better. But you're you're so tired and fatigued from this nonstop like marathon of parenting that sometimes it's it's hard to remember that.

1:04:18I think being emotionally sensitive, you look at your kid having a big emotional moment and you're like, I know what this feels like and I know what what can help you come out of it. and it's not going to be like snapping or yelling or like trying to pull you out of that moment by force. It's giving you that safety and that freedom to explore and figure out the solution for yourself and pull yourself out of it. Exercise, delay your response. What's your third favorite? My third favorite?

1:04:51I think you'll like this, is mindfulness. I think being like really drilling down on the mindfulness. And for me, I think what is really important about this is not for I always thought that mindfulness is like factory reset. Like you got to be thinking about nothing. Like if you're doing meditation or something like that, nothing is going on in your brain. And I think the difference for me is giving myself the space to non-judgmentally just observe what's happening in my brain and like just observe what is going on. And there was a study that came out of Yale that was looking at this mindfulness and the power of just observation instead of judgmentally rushing to solve that feeling.

1:05:35Just looking at the feeling, it reduces activation in the brain. Yeah, I mean, that was something that I learned on that meditation retreat. It's an interesting style of meditation, Jhana, which is the one that I was doing. So with mindfulness, it's a bit more brute forcey, which is, I think, why it's become more popular. you have a thought you notice the thought is there and then you sort of release it away you almost it's not quite a pushing it's more an opening of the hand but with the school that i was doing you actually welcome that in so you pull the thought towards yourself so you see the part of you that goes um you start thinking about work and then you judge yourself at being distracted for thinking about work and then you notice both of those thoughts and you go wow there's that bit of me that thinks about work.

1:06:21Like, I'm really glad that I care that much about my pursuits. Like, why don't you come like show some gratitude to that? And then, wow, there's that bit of me that's judging me for not being good at this thing. He just wants to work so hard. Like he really wants to do this thing right. And he's here to protect me. And like, you can come here as well. And as you continue to do that, it's a very different, it was a very different experience, especially doing, I've done, I don't know, 2000, two and a half thousand sessions of Vipassana across my life and then got thrust into this new school. I guess it must be similar to learning to kickbox your entire life and then going and doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

1:06:55And you go, well, I'm still fighting somebody, but the way that I'm doing it, the domain is completely different. And yeah, one of the things that was kind of interesting, at least with the mindfulness part there was it's very much about emotional conductivity. It's about, okay, how can I see what I'm feeling completely non-judgmentally? And I think that it's the same thing that you're getting at with one of them you're letting it go and with the other one you're bringing it in but for both of them there is a lack of judgment right i think that that shame spiral that we were talking about is you talked about kids that what do you think tiktok is doing and social media what do you think social media is doing to emotionally sensitive teenagers oh well okay so here's the deal.

1:07:38I think social media is just a weird place in general. That's coming from someone who is on social media. I myself find myself, I get triggered by social media all the time. I'm constantly comparing myself to others. I feel like a lot of my day-to-day relationship with self-worth for a long time was driven by numbers. Like how many likes did I get on a post? How much engagement am I getting? Like, what's happening on that? That's what was driving, like, am I good at what I'm doing? Like, I was getting that external validation. I am a physician who's gone to med school and who studied the brain, like, and that's still happening to me.

1:08:24So for kids whose their frontal lobe isn't fully developed, I think they probably are at higher risk. And so I think that it's just a difficult, I don't think completely like shielding them from social media and from that entire world. Just like you can't really like the train is moving. You can't completely shelter your kids from absolutely everything. You have to teach them how to navigate these constantly evolving waters. I've learned from over a thousand podcast episodes, the easier that you make your health routine, the more consistent you'll be. It's like golf, right? You want to keep it simple and not mix a bunch of pills.

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1:09:37If you don't like it, they will give you all of your money back. Right now, you can get 20 % off a welcome kit and that 90-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom. Can the way that you're raised in early childhood enhance your sensitivity? I don't know whether you've done much work into nature versus nurture for this? I think there is a huge part that's genetic. There is a huge part that also if you grow up in like this incredibly chaotic and tumultuous home, you are already hypervigilant.

1:10:11You're searching for cues. You can be more emotionally sensitive because of that as well. And then if those two things get combined. Yeah. Right. Okay. How early does rejection sensitivity emerge? I mean, you could see it in two-year-olds. You could see it in three-year-olds. Right. Are there some parenting behaviors you think that accidentally create emotional sensitivity or maybe even fragility? I don't, I don't, I think that there's some things that a lot of parents are doing in hopes that they are getting a more resilient child, like teaching them, you don't need to cry about this. You need to move on.

1:10:54You need to, you know, this isn't a big deal. And the way that I kind of have thought about those kind of, because like even raising my own kids, like I think about that all the time. That isn't that big of a deal. Like my kid had a tantrum the other day that I wouldn't give him the heel of like the loaf of bread. And I was like, that's objectively the worst part. Like you don't want that. I don't want to give it to you. And like it was like a huge thing. But then I was like, this kid has not dealt with like disappointment yet. From what I'm understanding, this is probably one of the worst things has happened to date.

1:11:31Like he hasn't had a very hard life. So like I need to teach him how to navigate disappointment instead of being like, this isn't a big deal. It probably is kind of a big deal to him. He really wants that heel of bread. And so it's, you know, and I don't really have a good reason not to give him it. But like we just we had to navigate through that moment. And like with big tantrums, you deal with that. But I think it's easy in that moment to be like, this is a dumb problem. Move on. I think the heel of bread is actually a really lovely meme for everything, which is working out the difference between validating feelings and encouraging victimhood.

1:12:06And this is in adulthood as well. You know, there can be a situation that you're in where what you're after is a heel of bread. and everybody around you and you yourself, the better version of you has every right to go, no, dude, you don't want that. Like you're being silly. You're being ridiculous. And again, finding this difference and finding the line between validating somebody's feelings and going, hey, I know that you feel this way, but also not encouraging them to further

1:12:39weaken the resilience that they need emotionally. I think that's where the sort of rubber is really going to meet the road with this thing. How we got through that moment, this Gila bread moment, is I took out a Gila bread and then I took out another piece of bread and I was like, let me just tell you, these are the two pieces of bread we were talking about. And I know you want this one. describe what you like about this one instead of this one and then he's like no i wanted this one instead and so i like i think it was just like he was so stuck on this idea and like didn't get past it and like instead of just being like that's dumb allowing him to actually see and get to that conclusion like i don't actually want the healer bread was helpful for us how does rsd show up in work and achievement because I have to assume that these are the overachievers, the perfectionists.

1:13:33Sometimes. But sometimes it actually, before you can even get to that spot where you're kind of overcompensating, you're not even putting yourself out there. So I have patients who have been, you know, I couldn't even, like I got spooked in the job interview and I like walked out. I couldn't do it. Like I didn't feel like they liked me. So you get past that spot and you're in the work environment, sometimes you are so, and you see this a lot with high achieving people and especially high achieving women. I think societally, there's just like this pressure on women to do everything, to do it all and to just like not complain.

1:14:15So if another thing comes along their way, yes, I can do it. Yes, I can take that on. Yes, I can do all this stuff. And so you just what happens is that you start to override the signs of burnout and you just keep adding more and more and more onto your plate because you don't want to look like you're less than your peers. You don't want to look you don't want people to be like, ah, she was able to do that last week. Why can't you do that this week? You don't want to look incapable. And so you just keep adding more until you kind of reach that tipping point where you can't. Yeah, I think it's.

1:14:46I found this essay. the ambitious mother paradox, good mother or wasted potential. It's really great. It's quite a long read. But there's a really interesting line here that says, the implicit logic of protecting your right to work in the workforce was clear. You can't argue for equal access and then immediately ask for accommodation that implies you are different. That women have just been brought into the workplace. This is not something they want to be taken away from them. This is something that they're worried might be taken away from them. And yet there are certain elements of many people's, but often many women's psychologies that can make the workplace feel like kind of a spiky and unforgiving and a bit sterile and cold place to be.

1:15:29Like, hey, your emotional sensitivity in this capitalist, meritocratic, very fast-paced environment, there's not a massive amount of room for that. And yet you also know as somebody who's just gotten into this high-powered career that you fought for this and everybody else, all of the other women that have just fought for this have just got here. And you're like, well, I really want to be here and I don't want it to be taken away from me. And now I feel bad about asking for accommodation that implies that I'm different, which is I feel this thing and the guys around me don't seem to be feeling it in quite the same way.

1:16:02Or maybe they're just able to suppress it more effectively than I am. I just thought it was such a, I'd never really heard of anybody highlight the fact that there is a, there's a tension, like a bridge doing this in an earthquake that's moving in difficult directions that creates a sort of a pull on the system, especially for women in the workplace, especially for highly sensitive women in the workplace. I feel like I need to show up as the men that I think are the ones that are running the company. But I want to be one of the women that's maybe running the company. But I'm like denying part of the nurturing, empathetic people skills that I've got that are my competitive advantage.

1:16:39So I need to perform in this way. And I don't want to be seen as less than. And I also want to protect it for everybody else but i also don't want to deny myself and i might need to ask for a bit of support but i'm worried if i have support that's accommodation for this brand new world i just like it's hard i reading that essay this big massive essay by taylor i was like that's a lot that's a lot to navigate it's a lot and then just like from a logistical perspective there's also that you know child rearing falls in that so all of a sudden you're at the peak of your career you have a kid you have to step away from that and then reintegrate and then all of a sudden you'll find And that, you know, and, you know, it's probably because you did step away.

1:17:19Now, you know, you're it's almost as if everything you work towards kind of gets pulled away from you. And you're you're everyone assumes that all of your priorities are completely different and there's opportunities that are kept out of your reach. It's like it's a whole it can be very difficult to maneuver just from a logistical perspective as women are the ones burying the children. I had a great conversation about dad brain, but also mom brain came up too. And the fact that if you have a kid as a mother, 2.5 % gray matter loss-ish, like that really does not, basically anything that requires executive function that is not your child gets pruned a little bit.

1:18:02And that means, yeah, if you were the EA to some high-powered CEO and you were basically running his entire life, or you're the chief of staff, right? And you before were just this absolute military killer. You knew exactly what was going on at all times. And now it feels like there's fluff in your brain. You go, huh. Again, this is another situation where I think compatibility. And one thing that would be cool, I know that other people, this isn't my idea. but suggesting that mothers look at transitioning careers to things that utilize this new skill set, not to see it as a weakness, right? Not to go, I want to be the person that I was when I was 25 and I had literally a different brain and different priorities and a different stage of life, as opposed to going, huh, I've just unlocked this entire new world.

1:18:50Maybe becoming a therapist It would be like a really incredible opportunity for me to focus this brand new level of empathy. That would be great. Flip side. Yes? Flip side is have those environments accommodate those changes. Understand that those changes are happening to women and that priorities shift. And instead of putting them in the same roles, pivot their roles so they can utilize some of those skills that they have. So same sort of thing, but inside of the same company. I think that's a great idea. I get the sense and this is a culture and narrative change that would need to be made I get the sense that a lot of women would feel that as being if it was imposed on them I'm less than now or you're saying that I can't do what I used to do and in some ways what you're trying to open up is no I'm saying that you're better at doing other things that you couldn't do previously there's two ways to look at it right what have I lost what have I gained yeah we're saying this is something you've gained why don't we utilize this new skill as opposed to this is something you've lost why don't we get you away from using that old skill and just the framing but i i don't think in the volitional component like if if if the woman felt like you know what this is where i could spend more time and i could utilize these skill sets a little bit better like i think i think at the end of the day should be kind of her choice and her her pushing that kind of decision yeah i agree creating the culture that makes that not feel like just chalking up an L is that is where an external influence can adapt like an internal desire.

1:20:29You know, oh, the way that this is framed externally, what society says I should be doing actually makes me feel more or less comfortable with doing it. And I think, you know, the ruthless part of this, this is for every woman that runs a career, let alone every man. It's like the market doesn't give a fuck. And ultimately businesses need to run businesses that are profitable and are growing. And that is where, again, finding that line between validation and when do you push, when do you pivot? At some point that has to be, and this is the same thing is true for guys. The same thing is true for, like, you can't be, if your testosterone is dropping and if you're not quite as mentally quick at 65 you're probably not going to be the same killer salesman that you were at 28 sure this is the market doesn't care i'm sorry like you've come up and you've shown all of it but anyway i here's how i've like thinking about this whole conversation and thinking about your book sensitivity is the input and emotional intelligence is the output feels like the equation that we're playing with is that a fair assessment yeah yeah yeah Yeah.

1:21:40And that gives people certain advantages and it gives people certain challenges as well. Yeah. I think emotional sensitivity as a whole, I think it's something that can be difficult and it can be wonderful. And it's just I know, like, as a person who's gone through this and as a physician who's gone through medical school and psychiatry training and all this, this was never taught. But people aren't taught about how to actually, in a very real and tangible way, deal with their emotions. And I think that emotional stuff, like when you're looking at it, because a lot of my research is on ADHD. When you're looking at ADHD, like a lot of that, like executive function and all that stuff, like to some degree you can find a hack or you can delegate or you can do that.

1:22:27You can't do that with emotions. They're just in you and you can't show them to anybody else. no you can't like you have to be able to process and get through on the other side so if you are completely consumed by them or if you're having a hard time regulating them i mean you're not going to be able to think you're not going to be able to move on from that moment it takes so much brain space and so that's that's one of the things that i hope that this book will help give people a little bit more agency over their emotions if there's someone that feels like they're in the world and it's too spiky for their emotions, what would you want them to take away?

1:23:04What would you want to tell them? They just don't have the tools yet.

1:23:10Life is hard. This world is hard. And I think being emotionally sensitive for so many of us is a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's sometimes really difficult to keep your head above water when emotions are big. And so having those tools and being able to grab hold of them and use them in appropriate times is life-changing. Dr. Sasha Hamdani, ladies and gentlemen, you're great. I appreciate you going into the murky depths of people with way too many emotions. Where should people go to check out everything you've got going on? So I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, I'm on YouTube, and it's the Psych Doctor MD.

1:23:50And the new book. And the new book, Too Sensitive, which is out August 25th. Heck yeah, appreciate you. All right, goodbye, my beauties. Yes. Yay, we did it! I see you. Fire and Ash is now streaming on Disney+. It's the film critics are calling the best Avatar yet. Go, go, go, go! A true epic and completely jaw-dropping. This is the only purest thing in this world. Return to Pandora on Disney+. It will be an adventure for the whole family. And watch the Oscar-winning phenomenon at home. This is sick! Avatar Fire and Ash Now streaming on Disney Plus Rated PG-13