The Rise of History’s Greatest Emperor: An Untold Story - Alex Petkas - #1085

31:52And so Caesar picks one of the last surviving men to have been vaguely implicated in this riot as somebody with, you know, blood on his hands metaphorically for the death of Saturninus and his associates. And the guy is like this emaciated old gentleman, Rabirius. And he says, you know, we're going to hold you responsible for your crimes 30 years ago. Rome is a place of justice. And they basically, long story short, they get him convicted. And in the special court that they call, the punishment is crucifixion. So they're going to publicly execute this 80-year-old man who probably doesn't even know what day it is.

32:46And there's some last minute political shenanigans by Rabirius's friends. They like raise this flag and they, you know, there's a kind of like political chicanery where you can say the omens are bad and it kind of calls off the whole thing. And Caesar, I think it kind of expected them to do that. But the point was about the statement, you know, that oligarchs, aristocrats from the establishment can't get away with murder anymore, not in this town anymore. I think that was a big piece of why he was popular before he ever led an army. Now, when he started leading armies, that's a whole different story.

33:24Like he was a master at getting, um, like winning the respect of his soldiers. He was always fighting in the front lines. There's many stories about this, um, the incredible loyalty that, that his soldiers in particular had for him. Um, but you know, he's kind of a playboy in his, in his youth. And, uh, he just was, was a fun guy to be around. He's always giving gifts. He's, um, he's in debt all the time up to his ears and he somehow always finds a way to pay off his creditors. Um, uh, He was just a really magnetic guy to be around. What was the loyalty that he generated? Just how loyal were his followers?

34:06Well, so one instance of this is in the Civil War that illustrates this is this guy, Granius Petro is a guy we wouldn't know his name otherwise, but he's a quester in Caesar's army. And he's a ship captain, gets his ship captured by Caesar's enemies in the Civil War. And so he's brought aboard the ship with his fellow sailors and the enemy commander, the Optimate commander says, Granius Petro, we're going to be nice to you guys. Now, normally since you all are traitors, what we should do is slit your throats and throw you overboard. But we're going to be very kind. You know, Caesar's a kind man.

35:00We know he's the enemy of the state and tyrant and lawless, but we're going to not let him morally outclass us. We're just going to sell you in the slave market, all of you. And hopefully you'll get ransomed maybe. But Granius Petro, you, however, may go free. He's their leader. But you have to go and tell Caesar what we did here and tell him that his war effort is futile, that he should surrender to the lawful government of the Republic. And Granius Petro says, it is the custom of Caesar's soldiers to give mercy, but not to receive it. Then he pulls out a dagger and he stabs himself to death right in front of the the enemy consul.

35:44That's the kind of loyalty that Caesar had. Like this guy would rather die than, you know, be ashamed by letting his enemies spare him. Um, another great instance, uh, I mean, the Caesar soldiers had this incredible endurance throughout all of his campaigns. They're willing to fight for him to the, to the death, you know, stories about soldiers getting shot in the eye, shot in the arm, shot in the leg, taking hundreds of blows. And then they don't leave the fight. They just have to be dragged away by their companions. One instance, again, later from Caesar's career, he's fighting this great kind of trench war, siege war with Pompey.

36:29There's like a 17-mile wall that he's built around Pompey's camp to wall him into the coast in Greece and Pompey's built another counter wall. So it's this dragging, dragging long siege warfare and the supplies are getting choked. Caesar cuts off the water to Pompey. The animals are starving and dying in Pompey's camp, but Caesar's even in worse straits because they've eaten, he's got 20 ,000, 30 ,000 men. They're eating all the food in the area. They're running out of food and they're having to go and collect weeds and bake them into these horrible, disgusting cakes and just eat them. And, um, and at some point, uh, Pompey's guys have enough food and water personally, even though the animals are dying, they call over to Caesar's men across the wall.

37:15They say, you know, Hey Roman getting hungry over there. And, uh, Caesar's soldiers catapult over some of these horrible loaves of nasty food that they're eating just to show what they're willing to eat. They're willing to like starve to death before giving up the fight. And one of these, these cakes, you know, imagine like a cow patty, you know, one of these cakes is brought to Pompey, you know, his, his enemy, the commander. And he says, good God, we are fighting with beasts. And, and, uh, and they go to Caesar and they say, we would rather eat tree bark than surrender. And how was he able to generate that?

38:00He fights in the front lines with them all the time. He risks his life right up there with the centurions. He knows all the centurions in his army by name. There's like one centurion for every 80 men and he's got an army of 30 ,000. He remembers their names. He takes the time to do that.

38:24He also is very generous with gifts. And what he'll do is he'll eat the same food that they eat. I don't know if he ate those cow patties, but I imagine he did because he had this habit of if the olive oil was rancid and there was good olive oil, but the troops were eating the bad olive oil, he would eat the bad olive oil. If his troops are sleeping on the ground, if his officer corps, he's always going around lightning speed, blitzing around the campaigns and often they have to stay in weird places. If his officers are sleeping on the ground, he'll sleep on the ground. He'll give a good one bed.

39:06We'll give it to the weakest of us, which is not me. So he's always there with them. um but he's also he's very lavish with these guys too like he his his um what he does he does amass a lot of money when he's conquering gaul for example but it's always only to give it to his friends to give it to the people of rome to do something with it it's all he always sees money as a tool and riches as a tool and gift as a tool to to to like win to bind people closer to himself because this is this is where his real power lies and this is what where I think in general real power lies a quick aside most people think that they're dehydrated because they don't drink enough water turns out water alone isn't just the problem also what's missing from it which is why for the last five years I've started every single morning with a cold glass of element in water.

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40:35And if you don't like it for any reason, they just give you your money back. You don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. And they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Elements' most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. what was the relationship between him and pompey because you said previously they were sort of loosely affiliated and then they do the triumvirate so instead of trying to beat them he actually decides to do that thing with crassus and pompey what's the arc of his big enemies across his life yeah so pompey is um they're they're friendly for most of their career and um pompey is a kind of moderate populist.

41:27Pompey mostly wants to, in his early career, he fights for Sulla, but soon after Sulla dies, Pompey doesn't, he's not really into politics that much. He mostly wants to just get himself sent off as commander of Rome's armies to fight all kinds of wars, because I think that's his happy place. Pompey is an excellent administrator. He's great at logistics. I think he's kind of a big guy too. And so Caesar helps him a lot in his early career to get these extraordinary commands is what they call them. Like Pompey doesn't hold office until he's 35. And usually to become consul, which is what he becomes, you would have to have like, you know, a whole sequence of offices.

42:16But Pompey's just, he's just the golden boy. Anyway, Pompey is, he's got this combination of charm and he's got this boyish look. He's got this little quiff in his hair. He kind of looks like Alexander and he kind of models himself off of Alexander the Great. I mean, Caesar and Pompey both are like Alexander, Alexander stands. and, um, but he's also got this ruthlessness to him too. Uh, they called him the kid butcher when he was younger. And the Romans just love this combination of cold blooded forcefulness, brutality, even, you know, in a controlled way and then boyish charm, uh, which Pompey had, But the way that they really get into cahoots in the first triumvirate is, so even though Caesar's kind of friendly with Pompey, helps him out here and there, he's not like really tight with Pompey.

43:22who he is tight with is Crassus, the richest man in Rome, another fascinating figure that I did a biography on, on the cost of glory. Crassus finances Caesar's career. He's basically the one holding the note for all of Caesar's colossal political debts. And there comes a point when Caesar is ready to run for consul, that Crassus has a problem and Pompey has a lot of problems that they can't get solved in the Senate and in politics. Pompey's just come back from this glorious Eastern campaign. He's defeated this general Mithridates. He's essentially conquered Judea and he's defiled the temple in Jerusalem.

44:10But he's come back glorious with a bunch of soldiers that need rewards. He wants to settle his soldiers. He wants the Senate to ratify all of the arrangements, the treaties that he made, you know, appointing a client king here, you know, getting a city constitution ratified there. And he's got a lot of, a lot of interest in that, like materially, you know, people sending him money and promising to support him and war politics. So Pompey has a lot of needs and it's all getting blocked by the Senate. He's just not that great at the political game. And by this point, Pompey is sort of an outsider from the optimists, from the kind of establishment conservatives who are blocking Pompey.

44:57They think he's getting too powerful. Caesar is nobody at this point. I mean, yeah, he's a promising young politician, but he's not like a powerful man. So we talk about the triumvirate, but it's Caesar brokering a deal with Pompey. And then Crassus, on the other hand, has some tax breaks he wants for his, basically his portfolio companies who are equestrian tax collectors. And they can't get it through the Senate. Both Pompey and Crassus are outsiders to the Optima establishment. The main guy who's the kind of figurehead of the conservatives is this young guy, Cato, who becomes, who's a Stoic, famously becomes Caesar's worst nemesis.

45:41And Caesar basically comes to these two big shots, the two big fish in Rome, Pompey and Crassus, richest man and then the most glorious general. He says, you guys hate each other. You've hated each other for a long time. You've always been trying to smile in public when you're next to each other, but then stab each other in the back behind the scenes. But look, you both have needs. I can, I can, I can fix them. I can fix this. I can get your legislation passed Pompey. I can get your legislation passed Crassus. Support me in the consulship. And I'm going to ask for a favor down the line, but let's not worry about that right now.

46:19And they say, all right. And so it's basically the triumvirate is Caesar brokering this deal between these two top guys, which is a great, that's a great strategy. I think if you're, if you're like down here and there's men up here that have a need to help find the way to help them out. And the biggest thing that's blocking each of them really is each other. Crassus is pushing the Senate to not ratify Pompey's legislation. Pompey is going to use his clients to kind of push against Crassus, so making peace between the two of them. And it was a pretty good relationship for a long time. And once Caesar gets elected consul, his dear, dear daughter, Julia, his one child up to that point, he marries her off to Pompey the Great.

47:05And he becomes Pompey's father-in-law, even though he's a younger man somewhat. And by all accounts, that marriage was not just a political marriage, but it became a very loving relationship. And so, So, you know, they had this long connection long before the Civil War that made them mortal enemies of each other, which I think is what makes it kind of even more tragic and bitter. And then how do Pompey and Caesar end up at war? Well, that's, you know, a long story, I guess. But in sum, when Caesar, how it all happens, how this breakdown happens is when Caesar goes off, when he finishes his consulship, he gets Pompey and Crassus to support him to have himself sent off to Gaul.

48:03So far, you know, Caesar hasn't had his Alexander moment. This is his chance to do some real world-changing conquest. And he spends the years, 59 is the first triumvirate, so he spends the years 58 through 52 conquering Gaul. and Rome controls a little strip along the coast. Gaul is France, of course. But the Gauls, the Celts is the other name for them. They are not just a kind of, you know, peaceable farmer, unsuspecting society of, you know, we just want to like live our peaceful lives. Why are these Romans coming and conquering us? I mean, this is a confederation of incredibly warlike tribes who have threatened Rome on many occasions.

48:55And just in the previous generation, there was a great Gallic invasion that stopped by Gaius Marius.

49:05And several centuries earlier, the Gauls actually sacked the city of Rome, taken at the only time that ever happened up to that point. So there's a real threat there, arguably. And, uh, you know, we could get into how Caesar conquered Gaul, but how Pompey and Caesar fell out with each other is, it's a long story that basically while Caesar's away, he is absent from the city of Rome and from Italy for, um, seven years. well, really eight years before the conflict between them breaks out. And while he's away, Crassus dies. And Crassus was a kind of fulcrum balancing out Caesar and Pompey. He dies on this great Persian expedition, this campaign to invade not Iran, but Iraq, where the Persians were in charge.

50:03So that was the kind of like last, when you have three men, they can kind of balance each other out. But when it becomes two men, there's a polarity there that can really be inflamed. And this is exactly what the establishment people see, people like Cato see. Caesar has always been a revolutionary in their opinion. He's always been trying to make a grab at Supreme Power. They had their eye on him since he was a young man. Sulla was right about this kid. There is many Mariuses in him. And Pompey has been an outsider, but they see sort of late in the game after Crassus dies that if they can kind of court Pompey into the establishment, he's always wanted their approval.

50:51Pompey has always just wanted to be this glorious general welcomed by the blue bloods, the great families, and they never really had it. And so they see their chance, Cato and company. Like, let's make Pompey a respectable man. Let's make him our shield, our shield against Caesar, because Caesar's going to come back at some point and he's going to come back richer and more powerful and more glorious than ever. And he's going to just push us around in politics. And, and maybe, maybe, maybe he's going to try to take over the thing and make himself a monarch, which I think was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

51:26Like that wasn't really his intent at that point, but basically they say Caesar, it's like 51 BC at this point. Caesar's been in Gaul for eight years. He's got so many well-trained legions. And basically his enemies are saying, you can't, we're not going to let you come back except under circumstances where you will face accountability, prosecution, potentially, for all of the bad things you did in your earlier career, including when you were consul. And they basically, you know, long story short, they kind of play Pompey and Caesar, they especially kind of get into Pompey's head and play him off of Caesar in this gradual shift of alliances.

52:17And importantly, Caesar's daughter, Julia, the love of Pompey's life by all accounts, she dies in childbirth in 54. And that was like the link that held them - The final tether. The final tether that held them together. And after that, the Civil War. Because otherwise there would have been some leverage over Caesar. Yeah. We have your daughter. Oh, yeah. I hadn't thought about that. But I think they couldn't have gotten Pompey's head because, you know, they would have had a Caesar's grandson, Pompey's son would have would have bound them together. It was a boy that was born that died soon after his mother died.

52:57Um, so I, I think that it, it wasn't an, an obvious fit for Pompey to be, um, their shield, their man. He'd always been an outsider and, uh, Caesar could have kind of kept him, kept him loyal. It's very hard when you're in France and this is all happening in Rome, but Caesar has a lot of lieutenants really, you know, men of letters trying to kind of keep the peace and keep up his contacts in Rome. But if he had been able to be there in person, he believed he could have settled the seas and won Pompey back over. And this is one of the things after the war broke out that he kept trying over and over again.

53:34Like, let's just meet Pompey. The Civil War. Yeah, the Civil War. Let's just meet. Let's work this all out. But he didn't want to. Yeah, Pompey didn't want to at that point. He'd already hardened his heart. He was supposed to be, Pompey was supposed to be one of the greatest generals ever, right? And he, did he not outnumber Caesar as well? Yeah, he greatly did. He had, Pompey was brilliant in the Civil War. He defeated Sertorius. He conquered the pirates in like three months earlier in his career. I mean, he's a brilliant administrator. Some people think he's overrated as a general. I mean, he was really good, but I think Caesar was a better general.

54:11But Pompey had - Evidently. Evidently. But he definitely had, by the look of it, all the advantages. When Caesar invades Italy, crosses the Rubicon. Um, you know, Pompey has a lot of legions on paper, but they're, they're fresh recruits. What's the story of crossing the Rubicon? Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Whoop. According to my Whoop, I've tracked nearly 2000 days of my life. And the thing that still gets me is that I could have predicted almost every bad day before it happens. That's because Whoop gives you a complete picture of your health every single day, your sleep, your workouts, your recovery, your breathing, your heart rate, even your steps.

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55:23So you can buy it for free, try it for free. If you don't like it after 29 days, they just give you your money back. Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that 30-day free trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com slash modern wisdom. That's join.whoop.com slash modern wisdom. I mean, it's something that I've heard people say all the time. It's a Rubicon moment, crossing of the Rubicon. I have no idea what that means. I don't know the story. I don't understand why it's significant. I don't know what it's supposed to symbolize. Yeah. So there's a kind of a complicated buildup, a standoff, you know, everybody's always kind of ratcheting up their demands as Caesar's like, I want to come back to Rome without prosecution.

56:08And the Senate's like, over our dead bodies, you know, concessions going back and forth, being rejected. And so as this is all going on, Caesar's getting his armies ready. He doesn't want to fight a civil war. I think he's, you know, and he always said that. And I think it's right. Because he's just come back from Gaul. Yeah. He's just come back from Gaul. He's seven-year campaign, eight-year campaign, straight into a civil war. Right. Basically. He's at war from 58 BC until 45 BC, almost constantly. I mean, the energy of the man. And he's got two advantages. So basically, he's got, I think he's got 10 legions at this point, something like 40 ,000 men, but they're all kind of strung out over Gaul and forts.

56:54They're not close. He's got one legion with him on the border, the legal border between Italy and basically northern Italy. What we call northern Italy today was what they would call Cisalpine Gaul. It's not like Italy proper. And if you lead an army into Italy without disbanding it, it's like technically an act of war. Consuls are supposed to disband their armies before they reenter Italy. And so the border between Cisalpine Gaul and Italy proper is the Rubicon River. It's this insignificant stream near Ravenna in Northern Italy on the Adriatic coast. And, um, and so Caesar's camped at Ravenna and he is negotiating with the, with the Senate envoys going back and forth, back and forth.

57:54It's not looking good. Caesar doesn't want to fight a war, but he's going to be ready. You know, he's not, he's not about to pretend like this couldn't happen. I think Pompey wasn't really ready for it, but So he's got one legion there with him at Ravenna, not a lot of men, 4 ,500 men or so. And at this final moment, the negotiations break down and the Senate declares him a public enemy. They say, Caesar is, you know, he's not responding to our demands. We've had enough. And they officially basically declare war on him. And the moment he gets that advice, the very next day, actually, he knew what he was going to do the next day, but he pretends like nothing's happening on that day.

58:47He's going to go about his business in Ravenna. He goes to the gladiatorial shows. He inspects his troops. He has dinner with his friends. It's just a normal day. No big deal. but he secretly sends the order out to his troops to muster. And he finds his way to the Rubicon. He apparently gets lost in the woods because it's dark. I mean, there's all these kind of elaborate tales about this. And one of the ancient sources, not Plutarch, who's a little bit more sober, one of the ancient sources, Suetonius, I think it is, says, as he stood there before the Rubicon, he saw a great winged figure blowing a trumpet.

59:26It's like the gods are calling him to war. It's like the Valkyries or something. But what he says is he's there with his officers and he knows if he crosses that river that he's declaring war back on the Senate. um and so he says let the die be cast and the the famous words it's actually a quote from one of his favorite dramas or a comedy from the nander like let the die be cast as as one does when one is entering upon a highly risky thing with uncertain results as blue dark says and so he crosses the Rubicon very quickly. And within a day, he has just blitzed down and captured a city in Italy proper.

1:00:21And he just, he has one of his advantages, as I was saying, is he loves to be underestimated and he's really good at getting himself underestimated. And they didn't think he would do it. And he only goes into Italy with one legion. And the Senate has like 10 legions in Italy. I mean, he's vastly outnumbered, but everybody else arrives really quickly. The other advantage is he's really fast. And so he blitzes through Italy and pretty soon Pompey and the Senate decide they've got to get out of there. They've got to rethink their grand strategy. And they go to Greece to basically muster up and collect a bunch of ships and a bunch of troops in the east to come back and reinvade Italy and destroy Caesar.

1:01:09But it doesn't work out that way. Well, they were hoping, they knew that Caesar didn't have any ships. Basically, he doesn't have troop transports. So he's not able to cross over and catch them and take the war to Greece. He's not able to draw on his great advantage, which is speed. And they're hoping to essentially kind of blockade Italy and starve him out. Rome, if you blockade Rome, the people will starve quickly because they're getting the majority of their grain from places like Sicily, North Africa, not yet Egypt. but it's a, you know, it's the biggest city in the world at that point, at least in the West, million people maybe.

1:01:54And, uh, you can't get that much grain in from the countryside on carts, you know? So they bring it in on ships. So they're hoping to basically starve the people of Rome and make these a really unpopular. Um, and so, uh, he doesn't have ships. He can't go catch them. So there's also, um, Pompey's got guys in Spain that start up, uh, uh, they, you know, holding out against Caesar and, you know, Caesar's only controls Italy and Gaul. And he, so he has to go fight a war in Spain first before he can go catch Pompey in Greece. And, uh, you know, basically by, by leaving, um, by leaving Italy rather than settling it then and there, his enemies are essentially saying they're willing to make this a world war, which is exactly what happens.

1:02:41There's a war fought in Spain first. Caesar comes and he defeats them in Greece. Then he goes to Egypt. There's another war there. Then there's another war in Asia Minor. Then there's another war in North Africa. And then there's the final kind of embers of the war in Spain. I mean, He visits every single province in the Roman Empire and carries war to almost all of them. Wow. Yeah. You mentioned Egypt there. What's the story of Caesar and Cleopatra? Yeah. Well, so… So, fast forward, you know, Caesar's first campaign is in Spain. His second campaign in the Civil War is in Greece, where he defeats Pompey at the Battle of Pharsalus, which really should have been the last battle, should have been the decisive battle.

1:03:35and Pompey flees and makes his way to Egypt. They don't know where he went for a while, but Caesar finally figures out he's gone to Egypt because Pompey has friends there. And as soon as he gets on shore, actually doesn't ever reach the shore. He basically comes up with his warships and the Egyptians say, oh yes, we're really glad to see you, Pompey. come ashore. We've got the whole reception ready for you. Just get in this little boat. And there's reefs that a big ship like yours would probably founder on. So just trust us. We're going to get you in this little boat and take you to shore. And Pompey gets on the boat.

1:04:22He probably knows what's going to happen, but he has no hope at this point. He's just crestfallen. He's dispirited. He thought he was going to win against Caesar. It was an upset victory at Varsalus. And I think it just kind of shattered him. And I think there's, I'm trying to remember exactly how they frame it. There's a moment where the boat captain is like, come on, Pompey. There's nothing to be worried about. You can trust us. And Pompey said, you know, if I were worried about my life, I would not get in this boat. like I mean I think he knew because on that boat they murdered him in front of the eyes of his son in front of the eyes of his wife in front of the eyes of all of his friends once they get a little way from the warship he never makes it to shore they murder him who's they?

1:05:17the Egyptians so who is they? what's going on in Egypt right now is there's a civil war happening Egypt is ruled by at this point by uh the Ptolemies who are a Greco-Macedonian ruling class their capital is Alexandria which is a great Greek city founded by Alexander the Great he's he's everywhere isn't he and so uh there's a conflict going on between these two like teenage one is a teenager one's a 20 year old like siblings of the pharaoh who died You know, it's funny to think of these Greeks as pharaohs, but that's what they would have called them in Egypt. And Pompey was hoping that all the favors he did for them earlier would ingratiate him to the Egyptian regime.

1:06:10but they basically saw Caesar won at Pharsalus. He's probably going to be the winner in this war, even though it might go on for a while. What would, what would make Caesar really happy is if we just killed Pompey and presented Caesar with Pompey's head and said, Hey, we did you a favor. And if we did that, you know, if we let Pompey live, he's probably going to try to raise an army and try to use Egypt as a base and drag on the war and we're going to have Roman troops just ripping this place apart. In the middle of our own war. In the middle of our own war it's going to be just a total mess. So they kind of nip it in the bud.

1:06:52And it kind of made sense. I think what would have made more sense is for them to just arrest Pompey because Caesar wanted Pompey alive actually. He kept on pardoning his enemies during the civil war. Yes, he wanted to pardon Pompey. He pardoned enemy after enemy. Domitius, Petraeus. I mean, you could list names and names. He's always sparing his enemies. Some would say that he was too kind to his enemies because they end up assassinating him. We'll get to that maybe. but um and caesar also knows that uh if pompey if he captures pompey and spares him if he if he could just get in the same room face to face with this man that he hasn't seen in the better part of 10 years that they could work something out he could convince pompey to get the troops to stand down to get everybody to to stand down there's no way that this war could carry on if pompey and Caesar come to an agreement finally.

1:07:50That's what he really wanted. He wanted to make peace. He didn't want to fight this war, but he was willing to fight it if they wanted to fight it with him. And so when he lands ashore, they present him with the signet ring of Pompey. This has a great, I think it had a lion on it. It was unmistakable. And then they give him the head of Pompey. Just in case you weren't sure. Here you are. Just in case you weren't sure whose ring that is. Came from the hand of the head. Do you know whose ring that is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know? Do you want to guess? There it is. And that's the second time that he's said to have cried.

1:08:29He was the consul of Rome. I think he cried because this was his friend. It really was his friend. And he all, his, well, the cynics will say that there were crocodile tears, that Caesar was secretly happy. But I think that's totally false. Like he really wanted Pompey alive. And I think he did still kind of hold out hope that they would, you know, be able to come to an agreement. Of course, Caesar would be the big man now and Pompey would be kind of, his career would be over, let's be frank, after losing a civil war. Maybe he could go into a dignified exile. But this was the father of his son before the son died.

1:09:09This was the man who took care of his daughter. Like, they had this really personal relationship. And so Caesar was actually quite pissed. And he ended up killing all the men who called the hit on Pompey. No way. Yeah, because they were basically the sibling of the rival Ptolemies that's controlling Alexandria is this kid Ptolemy. Ptolemy the 13th, I think. He's like 15. and it's, it's actually, he's kind of, he's, he's being kind of ruled by this, this, um, general that he has and this, this court eunuch, you know, as, as one has in Egypt, one, one, one needs eunuchs to do things. And, you know, one of them was the kind of chamberlain and was kind of pushing the kid around and calling the shots.

1:10:09And, um, and so the way that the war basically Ptolemy and Cleopatra are, Cleopatra is the other sibling. I forgot to mention that. She's off in the wilderness, who knows where she is when Caesar arrives. Caesar is welcomed with kind of fake smiles by the Egyptians who just want the Romans gone. Egypt has been, it's not a Roman province. It's important to understand. It's a Roman client kingdom. They're independent. They have their own tradition. They want to keep it that way. Alexandria is the most glorious city in the Mediterranean. Rome might be bigger, but it's a dirty place. Alexandria is a city of marble and culture.

1:10:57They've got the library. They've got, you know, Alexander's tomb there. And they just want the Romans to kind of leave them to their own devices, maybe be allies. But basically, they want Caesar gone as soon as possible. And Ptolemy represents the kind of more Egyptian independence party in Egypt, in Alexandria. He's loved by the people, actually. Cleopatra is actually the unpopular one. And that's exactly the kind of person that Caesar likes to support. because the story is he's been there for a couple of weeks. This is after he went to go and find Pompey. Yeah. Finds head and hand. Yeah. And sticks about.

1:11:45Yeah. He's sticking around in Egypt and Alexandria trying to figure out what he's going to do. There's a war going on there. And anytime the Romans see a war amongst people on the fringes, they see an opportunity to come in and intervene. And that's a way to kind of extend your power and maybe end up controlling the place directly. Egypt is the most, by far, the richest kingdom, land, area in all the Mediterranean. Why? What have they got? So for one thing, they've got the Nile, which, you know, you can like eat an apple and spit the seeds on the ground and just get wonderful fruit. I mean, it's incredibly fertile because of the flooding of the Nile.

1:12:24They've also got very, very rich mines, like mineral resources in the Eastern desert, especially. So, you know, exotic marble, porphyry, gems, you know, agate, amethyst, emerald. I don't know what the difference between any of these things is, frankly. And they've got a lot of gold, too, in those mines. There's still gold in Egypt. They're still mining gold there. So it's incredibly rich. Alexandria is a city of marble and gold. And it ends up later becoming Rome's breadbasket. You can feed a lot of people from the Nile. And Romans wanted, Pompey wanted to intervene in Egypt. There was another conflict with the fat king that died, the father of Cleopatra and Ptolemy.

1:13:20and people were hoping to pluck that cherry, but it just never worked out. Like Egypt is kind of despite, it's kind of incredible that Egypt was still independent at that point because Rome, the Roman, greedy Roman governors had just been circling it like vultures and they just hadn't had their chance yet. Now Caesar has a chance, you know? But they don't want that to happen. So Cleopatra enters the story at this point. Caesar's in the royal palace. and um and i don't know if you've seen that movie with elizabeth taylor the cleopatra movie but no uh so the way that they portray it in the movie is not that far off but basically caesar's there in in a study in the library uh or in in the palace and um a servant comes in with a rug he's like caesar we have a gift for you and he says all right well what's in what's in the rug and he tries to, threatens to poke at it.

1:14:20But basically Cleopatras sneaks herself in on a little, on a little raft and, um, is carried in as though she's a mattress as like a rolled up mattress is, is what Plutarch says. Like someone's got a yoga mat and their arm, but it's secretly Cleopatra. Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, and then, you know, it's presented to Caesar as a gift. Jared, chat, chat GPT this image. I want to see what it looks like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great scene from the Cleopatra. It's a rug in the movie, which is a great movie and the most expensive movie ever when it was made. No way. Actually, yeah. A quick aside, there is a stat that genuinely surprised me when I first heard it.

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1:16:05That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash modernwisdom and modernwisdom a checkout okay so she gets carried in so she gets carried in and uh you know she knows how to make an interest too from that moment caesar sees like all right this is this is another show person like myself she's 20 years old she's the oldest of the siblings um speaks all kinds of languages. Obviously, she's a native Greek speaker. She speaks Egyptian and Latin and Syrian and on and on. She's very, very charming and clever. She might not have led with her looks, but you'll hear stories that Cleopatra was actually kind of ugly and she was more of a great conversation partner.

1:16:58But she was beautiful. Maybe she wasn't like a 10, but she was an eight at least. Yeah, that's a great image. See if you can do Cleopatra Elizabeth Taylor rug scene. See if that turns up some results.

1:17:18And she had a knack for power. Like she knows how to play the heartstrings of a man. she's uh um she's got she knows caesar's weakness caesar has his weakness for smart high status women he's on his third wife now but she's back in rome yeah yeah you want to play it yeah yeah the rug is such a delicate weave if i may untie it for you turn it over first but the rug is now right tied up i understand but i wanted the wrong side up Or should I flip it over with my sword? No, no, no.

1:18:00I find one can tell more about the quality of merchandise by examining the backside first.

1:18:12All hail Cleopatra, kindred of Horace and Ra, beloved of the moon and sun, dotted to Isis, and of upper and lower Egypt, queen.

1:18:28a damsel

1:18:36so yeah she knows how to make an interest right it was something like that it's not far off and um and she also knows how to play the kind of wound i mean i think elizabeth taylor does that really well. Oh, my back. Oh, oh, let me help you up, madam. Um, and so basically Cleopatra wins him over very quickly. And, uh, because she does this, she's, she's sort of on the losing side of the war currently. Um, but Caesar says, we can, we can reconcile you, you guys. I'll be your mediator. and you know Ptolemy hates this idea or his rather his eunuch and his general hate this idea because they know like it's nice that the eunuch has got such say here let's listen to the guy that chopped his dick off yeah well you know he's a very learned man you know he has other talents well he's got nothing else to do right and you know I think I don't know how they did this in Egypt but often like it would be the parents that did it to like to an offering Yeah, promote the kid.

1:19:44Yeah, there's something really. You've got to do it with the second one. If you do it with the first one, if you don't have another one, that's the end of the bloodline. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But if he does well, he could do great things for his nephews at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no way to make that a good deal. So anyway, Caesar basically offers to moderate between them and the offer is rejected. And long story short, he ends up picking Cleopatra and Ptolemy ends up - Who's the younger brother. The younger brother. Yep. Yeah, he ends up sort of getting his hand forced by his general Achilles and the eunuch.

1:20:32And they try to have another coup attempt against Caesar. Caesar defeats them. and the boy is apparently drowned in the Nile in a boating. The younger brother. Yeah, yeah. Not like he's murdered, but there was a battle and he was just not found, probably drowned in the Nile. It was unfortunate. Tight family with the Ptolemies then. I mean, they are always trying to murder each other and one-up each other. And sure enough, Cleopatra has this younger sister too, Arsinoe, and she tries to revolt and Caesar crushes her as well and actually captures her and takes her back to Rome and marches her in the triumph.

1:21:14Was there any suggestion that Cleopatra and Caesar got it on? More than a suggestion. Like they become lovers, like for real. And they have a kid too, which is fascinating to think about the ramifications of this. But so, yeah, basically Caesar's never going to turn down a good offer from a high status woman. And, you know, she's a living goddess by Egyptian tradition. She is - Daughter of Isis. Daughter of Isis. Not just daughter of Isis, but living embodiment of Isis. Like, just like she said, there's a kind of, you know, fully God, fully human sort of thing going on with the pharaohs, son and kind of like divine avatar of Amun-Ra, or is it Osiris with the pharaohs?

1:22:09So anyway, she's worshipped as a divinity while she's alive. There's great reliefs. So she gets portrayed as a Greek to her Greek subjects, as the Ptolemies do, looks like a normal human, kind of classical statue face. And then there are reliefs of her portrayed as like an Egyptian hieroglyphic lady too. Might be worth pulling out. Jared, I want to see this. Cleopatra, Egyptian relief, something like that. Really interesting place, Ptolemaic Alexandria. It's blending two things together. It feels like the phasing out of the old world and the phasing in of what would sort of become this, what then would be more cosmopolitan, what then would be built more around rhetoric, philosophy, what then would have been seen as modern and sort of this sort of passing off.

1:22:59But you've got the, both of them are happening at the same time. And I guess it, there you go. That's her. And I think that's her and her brother. Oh, that's her son, Caesarian. So there's Cleopatra on the left. Um, and the other one is the son of Julius Caesar. That's their kid. No way. That image on the left. Open that up. There you go. wow yeah so that's proper 3000 bc looking right like that you could that could be like scratched into a pyramid yeah you wouldn't know the difference yeah yeah yeah oh god and there's a guy in the bottom corner look at how huge that is really big holy shit and that's the son that's the you know illegitimate son of cleopatra not that illegitimate i mean he's i mean 15 feet legit to me yeah exactly what was he called cesarean is was his nickname little caesar yeah yes he started a great pizza chain and uh didn't go so well and then he became a pizza magnate saw where the real money was yeah yeah yeah um but he uh his his official name was i think like ptolemy the 14th you know like every single freaking person in that dynasty is named Ptolemy, if they're a boy, or either Cleopatra or Arsinoe.

1:24:19There's not a lot of names. I think that might have something to do with this idea that you continue to be the embodiment of the same god through the generations. So you have to take on that dynastic name. You know Dali's story, Salvador Dali? I don't know if I do. So his parents had a son about a year or so, year and a half before Dali was born. No, was also called Salvador and they that son died and then they had another son and called him the same name and when he was age two took him to his dead brother's grave and said this is who you are this is you you are the reincarnation of your dead brother wow I mean it's just you it's you again so that was the start of his life he's Dali's fucking fascinating but yeah that was how he was sort of brought into the world as this weird recreation of a dead baby.

1:25:16That is amazing. Yeah, cool, eh? All right, so what was Caesar's last night like? You mentioned he's accumulated a bunch of enemies, but maybe not shaken the etch-a-sketch enough to actually get rid of them all. Keeps pardoning them. He's maybe erroneously deciding to be forgiving. Mm-hmm. What does the final day of Caesar's life look like? So the lead up to this is important because Caesar is, you know, he knows that there are assassination plots. There were even assassination plots 18 months earlier when he got back to Rome finally from the African campaign where he defeated Cato and friends.

1:26:04and Cicero mentions this in a speech. He gives a speech in front of Caesar. He's like, Caesar,

1:26:10I have heard, it has been said that you tell people, I have lived long enough either for nature or for glory because he knows about assassination attempts and he dismisses them. He says, you know what? If they want to kill me, I've had a good run. How old is he at this point? He is, so this is 46 when he gets back, so he would be 54. born in 100 BC. And 44 is the Ides of March when he dies. So that's how old he ends up being. But I mean, you know, that's pretty old for a Roman. Like he's had a pretty good run so far. And, but he dismisses these, these, these plots. And, you know, the information just keeps coming in.

1:26:58Sure and sure. People are trying to kill you, Caesar. Can you please up your security detail? Can you please give yourself a bodyguard? Like, we're begging you. His friends are begging him. And he says, not going to do that. That's what tyrants do. And sure enough, like, this is the kind of classic mold of how tyrants seize power. Pisistratus at Athens, I mean, you can multiply a lot of examples. You get a bodyguard first. You say, oh, no, there's threats against my life. I need a bodyguard, citizens. I just want to be your servant. And then that's how you seize power. And Caesar knows that that's the pattern.

1:27:34He's not going to do it. And it comes to the point where people are continuing to bring in names of potential conspirators. And Caesar says, I've had it. Anybody bringing me more talk about an assassination plot is going to face consequences. He's like, you're going to get fired if I hear another about you bringing me an assassination plot. He doesn't want to hear it. I think that's because he didn't want to rule over a subjugated, cowed populace. He wanted to rule over free Romans. and he didn't want a police state he didn't want he wanted people to feel free to say what they whatever they wanted to say uh this is clearly demonstrated by a lot of his actions you know people are criticizing him they're making jokes about at caesar's expense you know there's certain lines that you don't cross um but he doesn't want to um up his security detail the very last night the 14th of March.

1:28:43It's a normal day of business, busy day at work. He's got this incredible crushing burden of cases to hear and petitions and laws needing passing. He's also preparing for this great expedition to Parthia. He's going to avenge Crassus. Crassus was killed by the Parthians, they captured Roman eagles about 10 years earlier. So he's just trying to get through the next three days to get out of town and go back to, I mean, Caesar was good at politics, but I think - Better at war? I think he's better at war. He's equally as good at war. It's probably a happier place for him. Even in BC times, people were still drowning in admin, is what you're saying?

1:29:27Oh, yeah. I mean, like the load that he's carrying. Yeah, it's a universal problem. Once they invent writing, you know, it's over. Fucking game over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the email inbox of ancient Rome. Yeah. And it's funny you should mention email. So on the last night, Caesar is having dinner. He has a formal dinner every night. There's like nine seats at a typical Roman feast. You circle around on couches around a central table and everybody kind of lies down. It's weird, but that's how they did it. and horrible for the digestion it's horrible for the digestion but one advantage is everybody has to have the same conversation because you're all pointed toward the center of the circle yeah as opposed to an elongated table yeah so this group over there is speaking like that in this group yeah it's interesting i remember um was it who is it that suggested that the size of glasses of wine were getting too big around the table.

1:30:29Was it maybe Aristotle? And he made a special kind of cup. And if you overfilled the cup, the entire thing drained. Oh, yeah. Basically, his problem was that he wanted to have these really interesting conversations at dinner. And people were just getting too drunk. This is before coffee came around. And there's this interesting story. Before Nutonic. Before Nutonic. I mean, they should have had the nootropic toothpicks.

1:30:54There's that big transition, was in sort of the middle ages in the UK where Britain started to go from just having ale houses to having coffee shops as well. And this is a boon in innovation because people aren't just pissed all the time. They're just not drunk as much. They're stimulated and they're going and getting stuff done. Anyway, I think it's Aristotle that had this issue. And his problem was, I want to go to dinner and have all of these interesting conversations, but everybody drinks their wine so fast that the conversation degenerates into nothingness. So his suggestion was to his host to make the cup smaller.

1:31:35He says people will drink the same number, but they'll not realize that they're having less. And there's supposed to be, I think it's like an Aristotelian cup. Jared, do a Chachupi tea search. What was the ancient cup that was made to ensure people didn't overfill it uh maybe aristotle and it's this interesting this interesting point that okay well if we reduce it down it means that the conversational quality will be a bit better yeah but i suppose if you're sat in a you're probably thinking of the pythagorean cup yeah also called the cup of greed or greedy cup it's a special drinking cup from ancient greece designed so that if you fill it past a certain level it empties completely Isn't that cool?

1:32:15That's brilliant. Oh, because it's a siphon. Yes, it's got a hidden siphon inside the central car. If you pour wine below the marked line, the cup works normally. If you pour above the line, the siphon activates and the entire cup drains out through the bottom of the stem. For someone who tries to take more than their fair share, they end up with nothing. Legend says Pythagoras used it to teach moderation and fairness among workers or students, and the lesson is greed causes you to lose everything. Isn't that fucking cool? That's so Greek. Isn't that sick? Moderation. Yeah. wise man pythagoras well you know it's funny because i mean and plato's symposium that that they decide to pour the the wine they pour water in the wine often for moderation so that you drink less but they wanted to pour the wine really really light that night because they they all got smashed the night before and they want to have like a chill conversation that night but cato caesar's nemesis was actually known to be a bit of a tipler like he would he would often to show up to the Senate kind of smelling of wine.

1:33:16Yep. But that would be because he liked to drink for a long time having philosophical conversations. And it was this kind of conversation that was happening Caesar's last night. So Caesar is at the house of Lepidus and he invites a number of people to be among the nine. Lepidus is a good trusted friend of his. And one of them is Decimus Brutus. This is not the Brutus that appears in Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar, you know, and you too, Brutus. It's a different Brutus, but actually was a Brutus that was closer to Caesar in point of fact, historically, funny enough. So does Shakespeare get that confused?

1:33:59Well, he - Or does he amalgamate the two on purpose? Plutarch gets it confused. This is like one of the kind of flaws of Plutarch's biography of Caesar. He thinks that Marcus Brutus, who is actually not, I mean, close to Caesar, he is, because he's the son of Caesar's favorite girlfriend, Servilia. But Decimus Brutus was a lot closer to him because he was a lieutenant of his in Gaul. I mean, they're distantly related, these two Brutuses, but they're not close or anything. But Decimus was like naval commander against the Veneti. He's been brilliant in the Civil War, crucial in the Battle of Marseille.

1:34:41And in fact, Decimus Brutus was in his will as a second. Decimus is one of the men who stabbed him the very next day. He's sitting there with him at dinner the night before. And they're sitting there having their conversation, as one does. as a lot of final night scenes of great Romans and great Greeks are these philosophical conversations. And I think that's because they had them a lot, actually. It was very normal. And so - Like the last supper for Jesus, that's, I mean, there were maybe a few additions, but he was probably speaking like that mostly. Yeah, he was like, all right, here we go again.

1:35:24Just a Tuesday. So Caesar is sitting there as the conversation's going on. I find this really fascinating. He's clearing his inbox, actually. Because he's a busy guy, one has to. And his secretary's sitting there kind of feeding him letters that need to go out that he needs to sign. And so he's writing sincerely on them, signing his name. But the way you do that in Latin, the custom is you write, vale, farewell. So all through the night, he's writing farewell, farewell, farewell on these letters. And that's what you would have done typically? That's what you would have done to say goodbye. But I mean, the fact that he's like filling out letters during dinner, I mean, this guy has got a shit ton of work to do.

1:36:14And he's just trying to get, it's brainless. He's just kind of, whatever. Yes, and go on Cassius, yes. And I find that striking. But at some point in the night, he proposes a theme for the philosophical conversation that's going on. Decimus is sitting right there. What is the best kind of death? And the conversation goes this way and that way. Somebody brings up the example of Cyrus the Great, the great king of Persia who founded the Persian empire. Xenophon says, doesn't he, that Cyrus made all these arrangements before his death that he wanted to be buried in this way, and this should happen and so forth after he was gone.

1:37:00And of course, Caesar had read this book, Xenophon's Syropaidia. And Caesar's turn comes to him and he says, that sounds horrible. I don't want a long, slow death. The best kind of death is one that comes sudden, swift, and unexpected. you know what is decimus thinking at that at that moment but that that's well attested that that's what the conversation was about at some point that night prophetic yeah man and then you know he goes home late and bad dreams is you know if you've heard the read the shakespeare play there's all these omens you know his wife has this dream that she's she gets him up in the middle of the night that like wind blows open the shutters and, you know, he has to get up and shut them and calm down Calpurnia.

1:37:50And, um, she had this dream that she was like holding the bloody Caesar and like looking at their house as it's like burning and collapsing. And there's all these, you know, birds are acting weird. So the story goes, I mean, a lot of these omens typically happen around great events in the ancient sources, but you know, who knows? I mean, I mean, the, the, the murder of a A guy like Julius Caesar really is a kind of, like, if ever a death is a rip in the fabric of reality, you know, like, that comes pretty close. So that was how he spent his last night. It was a very unsettled night. And what about the next night?

1:38:27So it's, I think Caesar was, he has a reputation for dismissing omens. He did this when he was consul. you know, his enemies are trying to obstruct him in, in the, um, in the assemblies. And they're, they're saying, Oh, I saw a bird flying the wrong way. And I heard thunder. I heard thunder. It's a blue sky. And he's like, I didn't hear you though. Let's get on with business. You know, he's just ignores omens for most of his career. Sometimes the omens are bad. And he's like, let's fight the battle anyway. And he wins, but all these, you know, his wife is saying, I had a bad dream. I don't have a good feeling about this.

1:39:10And ancient omens, I think, are often kind of, it's a system that's in place. So before you go into a campaign, you, or before you go into battle, you sacrifice to the gods. You know, you cut open a piglet or whatever it is, and you read the entrails, or you get the sacred chickens out, and you see, Do the sacred chickens want to eat their feed or are they staying in their cage? What does this mean? It's kind of like opening up a space for intuition. The generals often have to make decisions. Leaders often have to make decisions that could be the right decision, but to have to explain why you're making that decision would undermine the project somehow.

1:40:03You want to have a way of explaining intuition. That's how a lot of anthropologists explain it. I think that's really compelling. So I think his wife had a bad feeling. I think he had a bad feeling at some point. He was apparently kind of stomach issues. It's unspecified, but he felt like out of sorts that morning. And he was supposed to go to the Senate. There was some business, some important business at hand. They did a dispute between Mark Antony and Dolabella, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, maybe I don't want to go to the Senate today. I'm feeling out of sorts. My wife is telling me to stay home.

1:40:43uh he goes you know down the street he lives in the forum the senate's meeting about a mile away he goes down the street to a buddy's house and to say hi and they do a little sacrifice and that sacrifice contains bad omens we don't know the details but like he's this is really striking so he he decides to just stay home that day who shows up at his door but Decimus Brutus, the guy he was having dinner with last night, he says, Caesar, I heard you are listening to the ravings of a woman. I mean, I've never heard Caesar to be bothered by omens in his career. Think of all the battles that we've won after bad omens.

1:41:30Like, come on, Caesar, the Senate's counting on you. They all cleared their schedules. They're busy man and you're really trying to make them feel like Rome is the same Rome. This is a whole other issue that he is kind of becoming this monarchic figure in Rome. He's getting accused of wanting to make himself king. He's getting accused of wanting to make himself a god, which is not entirely off base. We could get to that. But so, Decimus makes some good arguments. come on soldier up he's a fellow soldier and so caesar reluctantly at first but you know he kind of allows himself to be persuaded by decimus and it's funny you know i mean whenever caesar goes anywhere in rome the crowds the throngs people are saying caesar kiss my baby or can you you know cancel my dad blah blah blah but uh and this is again well attested this happens in shakespeare's play, but, you know, apparently he had a client, uh, like a friend of his whose house he had stayed at in Asia once.

1:42:34And, um, the young man, the son of the house was in Rome studying philosophy and probably was connected with the other Brutus, Marcus Brutus, who was one of the ringleaders of the assassination. And this kid, I forget what his name is, comes up to Caesar and And Caesar knows him, and he passes a letter to Caesar. He says, Caesar, you have to read this urgently. Caesar's probably being carried on a litter, but he gets the letter to Caesar. Apparently, Caesar has this in his hand and plans to read it. But this would have been... Basically, the guy was trying to tell him about the plot that was very much in action that day.

1:43:18Underway. That was underway, that he was walking right into. So, Brutus went to try and encourage Caesar to leave the home to sort of question his agency and sovereignty and belief in himself to remind him of what he'd done in the past in an attempt to get him out of the house so that he could be carried through so that he could arrive at the place for the assassination. Well put, yeah. So, that was the Senate meeting that they ended up doing the deed at, uh, murdering him in the Senate. And, uh, and there, you know, the two Brutuses, the one that he was with dinner with the night before was the, um, the guy who got him to come, the guy that's in his will, incredible.

1:44:02And so he, yeah, he gets to the Senate house. Once again, the omens are bad, you know, as you always sacrifice and do some, whatever you do, before going into the Senate to kind of inaugurate the meeting. Consuls usually do this, I think Caesar's consul that year. And omens are bad, but he goes in anyway. Yeah. And he's in the Senate house and it's his throne as dictator is right under the statue of Pompey the Great. because the place that they're actually meeting is not the old Senate house, which burned down a couple of years earlier. It's this new complex that Pompey built with the spoils of his war in the East.

1:44:52And it's like a little basement, or not basement, it's like a room off the complex that Pompey built for the Senate to meet in. In the forum? So it's outside the Pomerium. It's in the Campus Martius now. So it's, I forget what that part of Rome is called. um but basically it was an area that wasn't very built up so you could plant this massive you know stone complex with multiple buildings pretty easily uh in this unclaimed land so he had to actually walk from the forum it was like a it's probably a 20 minute walk yeah um but that is where the senate is now officially meeting and of course there was a statue of pompey as conqueror in this prominent place in the Senate House, and it's in front of the statue of Pompey the Great that the petitioners come up, or that the assassins come up, pretending to have some urgent business.

1:45:47Please, my brother is in exile. Caesar, can you get him pardoned? No, this is not the time. Please, Caesar. And Brutus comes up, and Decimus comes up, the other Brutus, and Cassius comes up. Caesar, this is a worthy friend of yours. We beg you, please, you know, you, you must spare. And then that's when they have him distracted, they grab his robe. And at some point before he actually gets stabbed, he's like, they're grabbing him. He's like, what's going on here? This is violence. And, uh, and that's, I think when he realizes, at least when the first blow struck every man that's surrounding him, 15 or 20 guys, probably there was a bit, there were more people in on the plot, but some are holding the doors, you know, keeping the perimeter to make sure.

1:46:34Uh, but yeah. And, uh, and they did the deed and, you know, after they kill him, um, after they stab him, there is that moment that is in Plutarch where he turns to Brutus, the, the more famous one is, uh, and this is, remember like he's the son of caesar's like top girlfriend servilia and he had a relationship with this kid like he was looking out for his career uh he was promoting him the kid fought on pompey's side in the civil war for some family reasons but he spared him so many of these men he's spared and some of them are his trusted like long-term loyalists it's not just former enemies that were spared, that were resentful.

1:47:26It's former loyalists. And, uh, and he says to Brutus, you too, child, kaisu technon, uh, et tu brute as, as Shakespeare says. Um, and then they, you know, he bleeds out, who knows how long it takes, but amazingly the Senate clears out pandemonium. I mean, to kill Julius Caesar, this is a horrifying idea because it really threatens to plunge the Republic back into civil war again. He's the lid holding it all down. This is why Cicero told him that he needs to have a bodyguard because so much is at stake. If you get killed now, we're all screwed. That's what Cicero was saying 18 months earlier. He was very much correct.

1:48:17But the Senate House clears out and he's just there alone on the floor. And nobody wants to approach him and draw close because they're afraid that one of the assassins will see them. Nobody knows what is the potential risk of me tending to Caesar's body. And so he just lies there for hours. By becoming complicit. Yeah. And then eventually some of Caesar's slaves go in there. They can only find three men. It takes four men to hold a litter. They can only find three guys to carry Caesar's body back to his house. And it starts to rain on their way back. And the streets are lined. People see his arm hanging out.

1:49:04And he's brought back to Calpurnia. Yeah. So it still gets me. I mean, I think that you could say a lot about Caesar, but I do think that he managed to identify his own success, his own legacy with what he saw as the flourishing of Rome. You know, it wasn't just about his own glory. Or it was, but to the extent that he felt like he was the man most responsible for whether the state survived and flourished. And so I, you know, but that's not how his enemies saw it, was it? What convinced them that you needed to go?

1:49:55Well, they saw that after the Civil War, Caesar was unquestionably, not just the first among equals, not just the first man in Rome, but like something was changing. You know, Caesar had fought all of his career to end corruption and the stranglehold of the establishment oligarchy over offices. I mean, there was incredible wealth inequality, and there's this kind of like tight clique of people that control everything, and they get to abuse the provincials at will. The typical way that you rise up in Rome is by winning elections and then going out and being governor. And usually it's very expensive to get elected.

1:50:47And then you have to go into debt and you recoup your money by robbing the Greeks or the Gauls or the Spaniards and taking bribes and stuff. It's a system that highly incentivizes corruption. And Caesar wanted to change that, among other things. And I think he eventually decided that this whole game that we've been playing at Rome for 450 years since the Republic was founded, since they drove out the kings. You know, you got to remember the Romans have been inoculated against kings much in the same way we are as Americans. It's like America was founded by us rejecting King George III. Rome was, the Republic rather, was founded by driving out Tarquin the Proud, who was this brutal, you know, corrupt tyrant in their eyes.

1:51:41And then it was a collective government. You have elections for office, you know, you have assemblies to vote on laws and all this stuff. That's what the Republic is to them. That's what Rome is to them. And this is also the game that people like Desmus Brutus, his friend, Brutus, the other Brutus, Cassius, basically everybody in the Republic, everybody in the leadership classes had been playing, had been expecting to play for their whole lives. which is, you know, this is how you get honor. You get honor by service to the Republic. You get honor by winning elections. You get honor by winning wars.

1:52:20But now Caesar is basically trying to kind of transition the political system into something resembling a monarchy. He doesn't want to call it a kingship. He doesn't want to call himself king, but he's really deliberately taking all the authority into himself because I think he sees that his legacy depends on if, if he releases power, he's kind of a control freak. You might say, if he lets go, then it's all going to kind of dissolve again, that people are going to undo his legislation and, um, they're going to go back to revert to the way that things were. And this is one of the reasons why he just feels like he has to hold on to power.

1:53:09Um, but what it, what it puts him in this uncomfortable position, uh, for is

1:53:19every honor in the past used to be given by the Roman people. You used to have supreme responsibility as a consul. If you're going to command Rome's armies, uh, you are the guy who wins the victory. If you win the consulship, it's because the people of Rome elected you consul, and so on and so on. Honor is granted by the state. And now it seems clear Caesar's been handing out offices, basically. He's been picking the consuls, he's been picking the praetors, he's been drafting the laws and getting the Senate to rubber stamp them. All the honor flows from this one man. And how is that not slavery in the eyes of a proud Roman.

1:54:07The most, Aristotle talked about the most difficult thing that a politician has to do, their most important duty of a statesman is to correctly, wisely distribute honors. Because this is, for a guy like Caesar and for a guy like Decimus, for any of these super Chad Roman statesman aspirants, the thing, the prize that you're playing for is not wealth, at least it shouldn't be. It's not pleasure. It's not like fame as such or status as such. It's honor. That's what Aristotle would say, that the highest form of the statesman, the great-souled man, is one who desires great things, considers himself worthy of them, and is correct in that judgment.

1:55:02and that means being worthy of great things. But what are the greatest things to desire? I mean, this is a question that's perplexed philosophers. What is a good life? What is a good life? What is worthy of desire? What does it mean to be worthy of something? And Aristotle says the highest thing that you can desire of external goods is honor. The price that you would be paid for a ransom note. Yeah. Yeah. Essentially. And, uh, you know, you can desire virtue, you can desire inner peace, you can desire wholeness, you can desire wisdom, but those are all internal goods. But, but of, of the things that you can kind of strive for, it's honor.

1:55:50And so this is the highest prize that that um an ambitious man could like you know make a career on pursue virtue you need to be virtuous to be really worthy of honor etc um but and you know for for a great sold man even honor is maybe a small prize because like honor can be corrupted right um corrupt people get get voted on us all the time uh so i don't think that's a problem caesar had solved he's brilliant brilliant statesman legislator politician brilliant with people but like to get a whole political class of ambitious young men i mean all the guys that kill them are like late 30s early 40s they're like in their prime and they still got a lot of gas left and they're seeing the whole game has been just screwed.

1:56:47Like I was raised to want honor and honor is, is what the people of Rome give you. And now I'm, I'm supposed to like do all of this stuff that I was going to do command armies, uh, you know, pass laws. I'm going to all do it as Caesar's employee. Right. Right. Never a boss, never a patron, always a client. I think that was intolerable for them. It was like a meaning crisis for them. But the situation that they did put themselves into is that for the rest of time, they would be seen as an assassin. Yeah. I mean, I guess maybe it's preferable to be a powerful assassin than a peaceful subordinate, maybe in Roman times, or at least in their version of this philosophy.

1:57:37It was an interesting blend to think that it would be better to be mutinous and a rebel against somebody that was a great leader, but may have pushed the power too far. Compared with being a part of an existing structure that had sort of raised Rome up to be a really great empire. Yeah, at the very least they saw more meaning in that path than the other path at the time. There was more self-determination. Yeah. Which is super important. They had a lot more agency. I mean, it's very understandable. Dante still puts them in the ninth circle of hell. betraying a friend fuck yeah Alex you absolutely rule dude this has been so much fun it's so great and I there's you know literally 2 ,000 years of history that we could go through before we close I got you a little gift oh thank you um you know I don't know how much of a Roman Empire fan you are Chris but I'm trying to make you one okay so um this is a coin that I got from Kinzer Coins uh which i recommend it's it's hadrian you're you're a northern brit right yep i like been to hadrian's wall many a time i figured i figured and uh you know if you look at this he's got a nice little beard i mean i see a little resemblance there as a matter of fact it says it says on there hadrianus uh augustus hadrian augustus and um dude this is so cool it says cos on the other side that means console so it was minted when he was a console and is that are those stars i think they're stars on the what would be the bottom the yeah this is uh what is on the back that someone stood in a toga yeah i think that this is roma who's right like she's the the goddess that embodies like the divine tutelary goddess of rome i can't believe you got me there Dude, that is so fucking cool.

1:59:47Hadrian is the last emperor that Plutarga lived under. So he's kind of special to me. Not to be emulated in everything. You know, Hadrian had a, you know, he did a lot of things Greek style, but he was a great fan of the Greeks, the patron of the Greeks. This is so good. Thank you so much. This honestly is, I could have sat and listened to you for the rest of the month. Where should people go? You've got so much stuff going on. Yeah. Cost of Glory podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Spotify. I'm on YouTube too. We're trying to make more videos to the audio content. And you can go to costofglory.com and I do other stuff beside the podcast.

2:00:29You have retreats and stuff, right? Yeah, yeah. We run retreats in Greece and Rome. Do men go and reenact? Is this LARPing? Are they reenacting killing seasons? We haven't done a LARP battle yet. We've gotten some demand from that. and we've got - You're really tapping into the men think about the Roman Empire once every 30 minutes thing. Yeah, we're trying to crank that up. It's not enough. I want to get it up to every 15. You never know. Yeah. Can you ever forget it? Oh, man. This is so good. Dude, today's been unreal. I appreciate you. A lot of fun, Chris. I can't wait to have you back on. Yeah.

2:00:58Anytime.