Broke, Bullied, and Then... Christina Aguilera Called: Hollywood Hair Stylist Chris Appleton’s Story

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3:38Chris Appleton is the hair wizard in Hollywood. would. He's worked with Kim Kardashian, Ariana Grande, Jennifer Lopez, Christina Aguilera, Kris Jenner. The list truly goes on and on. He has built such an incredible celebrity client list, but he comes from nothing. Working hard wasn't the only thing to help him reach the top. It was also accepting his identity. In his 20s, Kris came out as gay. And at the time, he had been in a relationship with a woman for years, and they had two kids together. This was a really difficult time in his life. And I should say that this conversation includes discussion of suicidal ideology.

4:09So please take care while listening. And also you can find resources in the show notes if you or a loved one needs help. But Chris worked through that painful chapter in his life. And today he shares the lessons that he took from that time. In this conversation, we talk about how identity intersects with success, the stories behind some of his most iconic work, and how he's worked through his own imposter syndrome. Chris Appleton, welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for being here. So I'm not a Kardashian person. I've never watched an episode. I know I'm the only person on the whole planet.

4:43I only ever watched one. But I dug into your book, Big Fan, Your Roots Don't Define You, and I discovered that you grew up Jehovah's Witness. Oh, my God. I did not expect you to ask me that. It's so funny because you don't write this book, and then people keep asking me questions. Did I say that? I wrote it so long ago. Actually, only last year. But honestly, anything I do last week, I forgot about. I bring it up because actually there's some connection. My father actually invented a bloodless surgery that reached out to a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses. And so we had so many Jehovah's Witnesses come to the area.

5:17I mean, you know, I think what you'll find in the book is a lot about me that you didn't know. Who am I to like tell anyone anything about my life when people probably only know me as working with celebrities? having you know an image on social media which looks quite polished and put together hopefully and that's what i tried to create without me just being really raw and saying okay you've seen this side of me which is a very small part of who i am but this is the real behind the scenes of it all and i think you know i talk about some of the darkest moments in my life i talk about some of the hardest times and i talk about my comeback and i talk about how i redefined you know my roots and where I came from because I come from a very humble beginning.

6:00We were very poor growing up in sort of middle England. My parents had a lot of trauma passed on to them. My mum was 10 when her mum and dad got murdered and she didn't even get told. They read it on the front of a newspaper. My dad got put in a home at the age of five and they basically went through their traumas. And, you know, some of that is inevitably going to be passed down through generations. one of the big sort of points in my life where a lot changed for me was when I first got my hands on hair because prior to that I was told at school I was pretty worried it was kind of stupid because I was dyslexic I'm dyslexic and now we understand a lot more about that back then if you didn't sort of learn in a very black and white way you were stupid or lazy so I think I was fighting a lot of demons around that and also being labeled as gay because I did hair at a young age I got a job and I really love doing hair.

6:54And I think sort of finding hair was something that was the first time I ever felt good at something. I was like, oh, wow, I'm really good at this. I get to make people look and feel great. And the first person I started with was my mom. And I wanted to make her look glamorous. So I'd do her hair and try and make her look like some Hollywood star, because it was very far from what we were and what we had. And when she looked in the mirror, I realized she changed a little. She didn't recognize that woman that was, you know, a mom of five kids and she saw something different. And I think that was so powerful to me.

7:29I was like, oh, wow, you get to make people really feel. And I love that. It was like a superpower. So then I just really got focused on trying to be the best at it. Because I think for a long time I was trying to prove, I guess, to everyone else that I was enough. I wasn't stupid. I wasn't gay. You know, I didn't want to be these labels. But in doing that, I kind of abandoned myself and I became very good at making other people look at themselves because I did it for a craft as a job. making people look in the mirror, see themselves, be a better version, help bringing that out in them. But I didn't realize I wasn't actually looking at myself.

8:00I was very avoidant about where I'd come from because I guess I'd been told, like I said, it was wrong and I was ashamed of that. So for a long time, I managed to get away with that until I was like 26, which is when I came out, my whole life changed. And that was even more brutal because, you know, being avoidant for that long is a long time and you have a lot of catching up to do and a lot of understanding. in and if you're the type of person i am is i like to understand i like to understand why we do the things we do why we make the mistakes we make and how we can kind of be a better version from that and you know a lot of that is in the book because when you have both and when you have alignment is you know really when the magic happens in my experience but for that magic to happen you do really literally have to go back to your roots oh yeah and it's brutal sometimes doing that work is hard you know i'm sure and a lot of the trauma that you talk about probably extends to financial trauma as well.

8:52Can you pull the thread for me to where money trauma came up for you as a kid? You guys didn't have a lot of money. Were you shielded from that or was it stressful? No, it's kind of what I knew. So yeah, we were really poor. I mean, I used to share a bedroom with my two brothers. I didn't really have any food in the cupboards. If we did, it was gone within five minutes. And, you know, we're a big family of five and my mom and dad did the best we could. I think maybe not having money as a kid or anything really, you know, I mean, I literally used to work in a salon at the age of 13 and got paid£10 for the day.

9:27I think it was a pound an hour. It's like$1 an hour. And I'd be like scrubbing skirting boards. It wasn't like we were blowing out hair and doing glamorous things. We were like scrubbing skirting boards, making tea and coffee, cleaning toilets. But I used to save my money and I would like make it count you know because I wanted to get myself to a better place I wanted to get myself out of what I experienced as a child which was you know really poor it was very very brutal and I think that's always motivated me to be better you know to push harder to work harder and with age I've also learned balance because I've been such a long time and such a big part of my life I was so hard on myself and always pushing and like nothing was good enough it was always I was always like that voice inside your head that hater yes and I speak about this in the book where I said we put ourselves down yeah yeah you call it the mean guy I call it the hater way you know a lot of the time I see that happen and most people might be able to relate to this when they go into a hair salon and they sit in the chair and you know you think oh my god I look tired why is this eye like go down like that like these wrinkles they weren't in the hip oh my god i've got gray am i going bold you know all this shit we start talking to ourselves like if the hater inside that voice can be really loud and really apparent but i think what i've learned to do is find balance with that voice and i think i used to use it as motivation whereas now i think i use it as uh i'll let it it's always going to be there that hater is always there it's always going to be there it's not as though it ever disappears but you learn techniques and like i said people will find this in the book to basically silence it and if it's usually at level 10 it'll maybe be at level two and not for so long and you can come back to yourself and you're like i'm doing that thing you know it's not healthy and one of the biggest realizations i ever had and it's really powerful was actually seeing the child in me like as adult chris i was doing this therapy session and my therapist was like you know i want you to sort of talk to him and i was like oh fuck you know you Like, I didn't really sort of believe.

11:33And I was like, here we go. Most gut-wrenching therapy sessions. I was like, all right, I'm going to talk to this kid. I'm going to close my eyes. And he's like, you know what? Do you think he needed to hear? And I was like, I just remember feeling. And I remember, I think he just wanted to know it was going to be okay. And he's like, why didn't you tell him that? And, like, coming back to myself, I was like, oh, my God. I've been so mean to myself. That voice has been so loud. that inner hater has been so loud my whole life. And it was a real moment where I was sort of understanding, like you can be abusive to yourself, you know, and to learn to be kind.

12:11Like I would never speak to another child like that. I wouldn't speak to my children. I wouldn't speak to anyone like that. But you speak to yourself like that. And a lot of people do that. A lot of people are, you're fat, you're ugly, or you're not good enough. Like we constantly do it to ourselves. But I learned a technique to like come back to myself and just remember that little kid who is inside and it's a part of you. Whereas I think for a long time, what I did is I detached myself from that. I detached myself from the past because I didn't want to be it. Whereas now I use it as motivation.

12:36It's all me. All those versions were me. And like, I think that's what makes you whole. And that's where I found alignment because like alignment externally is one thing, but getting aligned on the inside was the real healing part for me where everything kind of came together. Yeah, you wouldn't be who you are today without those versions. Definitely. And it doesn't mean you have it all figured out. It just means that you find techniques to come back to yourself when you do lose it for a minute. You know, you can come back and it just doesn't last as long. What is the hater saying these days? Is there greatest hits?

13:05Well, every now and again, I'll look at them around. I'll be like, oh, God, I've got grey coming through. Fucking old shit. I remember thinking, when you have grey coming through, I remember my brother having it. I was like, oh, he's got really old. And I remember looking at them around like, oh, it's grey. I'm really old. But now I'm like, oh, yeah, it does mean I'm older. but actually it also means I'm a little wiser. I'm financially in a better position. I'm secure in who I am as a person. And I think it shows like I've lived and I actually think the salt and pepper look can be quite hot on guys.

13:36So I just changed the narrative. You know, I changed the narrative for a minute. I'll still be like, Oh, you old fuck with the gray. And then I'm like, well, am I actually, I think it's kind of hot, you know, and I'll just change the narrative a little bit. And if you do that often enough, you start to believe it, you know, Whereas the easy thing to do is just to keep talking badly to yourself. You don't even know you're doing it. And that's what I've done for a career. I've helped people look at those things in the mirror that they see or the limitations they have. And I've helped them redefine them and re-direct them.

14:07I just didn't do it to myself. I found it so much easier to do it to other people than to actually look in the mirror and do it myself. Has there ever been a financial or money hater? Yeah, of course. I think the poor boy in time is always there. even now I'll be buying stuff and I'm like we went shopping the other day and I was with my assistant I'm buying some Christmas shopping and like I'm going back to the UK it's a really nice Christmas and I'm buying some stuff and I'm saying to my assistant Delaney I'm like do I need do should I have brought that like I'm being a bit excessive like do you think I really need that like and I'm like I probably could take I could take it back and I could get a couple of things I'm like doing this thing I used to always do as a kid and I'm like I can't afford it it's okay I I can get that and it's all right.

14:46I don't think it ever leaves you. Kind of like that it doesn't, because I'm very grateful to be in the position I'm in. I'm very grateful to be able to, you know, support my family. And, you know, I still work really hard for that. I've had a job since I'm 13. I would hope at 42, I can, you know, but I don't think it ever leaves you. There's always, it's always there. I think it's always there, that poor boy inside. I even see it in my parents. Like I see them, like, you know, they would never order room service if they went to a hotel or they'd never touched the minibar or they wouldn't even, you know they've come to LA they would I tell you what they would fly like from here to Switzerland Switzerland to Paris I'd probably go back and then from Paris they would go all over to here days I'm like guys what flight did you book with the cheapest one possible because their whole life they've spent scrimping and scraping and making ends meet and a great joy I have now is they've always put their kids first and they always will and I'm trying to educate them like guys you have to like look after yourself we're good now we're all adults we're all grown up you gave us all your years you know it's time for us to sort of support you and i want them to have like quality in their life and some nice things and not to walk to timbuktu because they don't want to get anybody guys it's all right but you know i i know i i see them stopping they're like all right okay we can do this but there's always like this guilt because when you've always struggled for money it's like it never really leaves you are there other money lessons that you had to unlearn because to your point when you're growing up you don't really have the perspective but now that you do I've always been a real saver I always felt like I wasn't good at saving but my business manager said that they have never seen anyone save like I save and I think there's the Brit inside me that's always loves a good deal I don't know why it's like you know like in England it's kind of culture where it's like oh come on mate don't be a bad deal like how much for cash you're like you know it's just kind of wheelie deely like kind of attitude yeah maybe a little bit but it's more like cheeky it's my cheeky banter you know because la is expensive like you go to air one you can spend a whole munch like wage on a smoothie you know what i mean it's not cheap i mean imagine doing your weekly shop there it's insane you can spend you know it's like kind of shocking you can buy like a strawberry at one strawberry i think was 20 at one point you know it's like can be a lot you had a smoothie you remember i had one that was really cute i was a very that was one of those moments where i was like yes made it made it yeah one smoothie i was really fun actually to be recognized in hair and to be recognized in my craft and then put it into a smoothie and that was great it was really really fun just like a nice little kind of you know those moments where you kind of think wow i had a call actually from madonna's team recently and like oh madonna's really looking forward to working with chris and i remember thinking how does madonna know who i am you know and because as a kid she was such an inspiration to me like she was the only one at the time doing like you know every album was something different and she had such a vibe you know she did music cowboy boots were a thing you know she she would just really stick to that era and at the time I'd say she was the only one that was like reinventing herself so much so it's always such a big inspiration and I remember being like a 15 year old and I cut out this thing from a newspaper and we went on a bus I took my mom we went on the bus to like Paris and we'd go on the ferry and then we'd like queue up for hours.

18:02And I remember watching her show. And I remember going back to that like 15 year old kid and I was like, wow, if he had known that one day she'd be asking for me to do it or even just know who I am in the realms of whatever. And it was like a real moment where you're like, wow. So cool. And when you like really put something out there and like a goal and you work towards it, mind you, this is literally what, like 30 years later. Yeah, it's like overnight success, 30 years in the making. People go, oh, how are you successful? I'm like, guys, not really. I've had a job since I was 13. I've like, yes, I recognize that.

18:38And I'm very grateful to be in the position I am. But it's not been through any ease knowing a certain person. You know, when I first moved to LA, it's like, oh, he's doing well because he's British. It's because he's tall. It's because he's got a big personality. you know like people were quick to just use any old bloody thing of why i was doing well the why i was doing well is because i'd fucking spent 30 years of my life learning my craft i used to i was obsessed with learning i even had a color degree i got a degree in color and you know where you wear the hat and stuff and like no one even knows you could get a degree in color i learned so much about my craft and if there's something i didn't know i would go down i remember i was in new york once i got booked to do a shoot of a magazine cover of a magazine they wanted braids i didn't know how to braid hair i went to harlem and i went into the shops and i was like guys can you help me the braid shops can i pay you to teach me how to braid i practiced on my doll's head i would i would never like take anything for granted i just wanted to be good i wanted to be good enough that was what i really wanted i just wanted to be good enough and really all along i wish i could have told myself that i was good enough it's work in progress yeah it's progress not perfection yeah so you started working at 13 you left school at 16 right and then you started taking free jobs around London to get more experience well I was working in Leicester so I got qualified and then I kind of worked my way up in the salon on the price level I said I want to be at the top of the price level like I want to go for all the price levels and be at the top and then I got my own price level and then I was kind of like what else is there and then I was like oh there's London because I was like from a small town of Leicester and I was like London they do photo shoots and like I was like oh maybe I could do editorial stuff you know and I remember the editorial world was very like oh you're a salon hairstylist you're not cool you know you need to stay in your lane you're always put into boxes every stage from my life people love to put you in a box and so I'd go around with my portfolio and I used to remember I couldn't even afford to train I used to hide from the train conductor because it was like a two-hour journey into London and then I'd take my little portfolio in and they'd like go okay thank you and then you know go to the next one okay thank you and then And once I got a call back and they're like, oh, you know, we want you to assist this hairstylist.

20:47I'm like, yes. Oh, my God. Do you think I would win the last? I was like, oh, my God. Great. Because that's like a sponge. I was so excited to watch. And if someone was like good at something, I wanted to know why. I was like, why are they good at this? What is it? Why are they a head leader at a fashion show? Is it the way they talk? How do they compose themselves? How are they treating other people? What is their, you know, how does their team work? How do they run their team? I was just like a sponge absorbing all the information. So I'd be like passing up pins to someone, but I was watching and I was taking everything and I was watching the dynamic.

21:18I watched how people interacted with each other. And then I'd go to the next thing. And then I had some lucky breaks. I won a TV show in the UK. It was like the great British break off, but of hair. So everything was just like a leap board. Nothing was huge. Nothing was like, oh, you've made it. Everything was like, you had to really make the most of each moment and use it as a leap frog. And there was still so many no's and so many times I fell flat on my face. and you know I'd get an agent and then I remember saying you know I really want to do the cover of Vogue one day that's my goal and they laughed at me and they were like you remember do the cover of Vogue you're like a salon hairstylist and they were like you got to keep it real Chris like don't let your ego go ahead of you and I'm like oh okay and they booked me a job for like a flip flop campaign I was doing a ponytail I remember thinking I'm gonna keep going I'm gonna keep going now I've done the cover of like you know American Vogue British Vogue with some of the most famous women in the world like i've done international vogues and like if i'd have listened to what other people had told me i wouldn't have done any of this i wouldn't even come to america and i think my journey was just it just kept going i just kept pushing i'd get a no i'd fall back down pick myself back up and get out there fall back down pick myself up get back out there i've always just sort of tried to be motivated by it well i imagine it to be very hard to hide from a conductor at six three but you did it and london is like sorry so i i they're like you were saying i said oh no i don't know i've been doing some accent it's like you're here you i saw you and i'm like oh i don't sorry i don't know i i put my glasses on i'm like i don't know uh i'm going he's like no you need to pay and i'll be like i don't talk english i don't know i say literally you probably think it's an insane person and i'd be like trying to run down the train avoid this bloody train manager and then he'd get me on the platform like oh I've got no money and I can't afford it but I just had a passion I just loved it and where there was I used to get the bus the bus was three hours the bus was even longer and that was painful well I was gonna ask you what's the most unhinged thing you you did during that time to save money in an expensive city but maybe that's it and you know it was interesting because cut along cut fast forward there's a lot that happened in between but eventually I started to work with celebrities so I did some fashion show stuff started working with different makeup artists then sort of started to do like a few magazines not great magazines just like weekend newspaper magazines and I worked with a makeup artist that worked with a celebrity Rita Ora and she's like oh she's looking for a new hairstylist and she recommended me I ended up working with Rita for two years and that was my first kind of celebrity that was the beginning of social media social media I started to post my work on Instagram and just I was very naive to see knowing that people looked at it you know the people that I followed you, like my mom and dad, and my mom always wrote a nice comment.

24:01But then I remember one day I got a call from JLo's team. It was an email, and I ignored it because I was like, well, what else are you going to do? This is bullshit. Did you think it was spam? Of course it did. Well, if you got an email from JLo, wouldn't you think it was a spam? Do you know what I mean? It's like, hey, you've won a million dollars. I'm like, oh, you know, I remember being at the phone box, ringing back for the million dollars. I think it cost me 500 ,000 in coins trying to call through. You know, it was like there was fraud. There was these fraudulent things. So I was thinking, oh, that's stupid.

24:28And then I got another one. And again, it was that moment. I was like, how does J-Lo know who I am? I'm just Chris. You know, I'm just Chris from Leicester. I was just doing my thing. And so I responded. I was like, I actually couldn't do it because I wasn't available. And I remember thinking, you know what? What do you mean you weren't available for J-Lo? Because I was with Rita at the time and we were doing the X Factor. And I think they wanted it like that weekend or something. I wasn't even in LA. They weren't going to fly me there. I had to get myself. I think they thought I was a local or whatever.

24:56You know, they weren't, you know, so I was like, it just was impossible. So I was like, maybe I need to make the move. Like, maybe that could be the next thing. Like, because Hollywood was always the thing I used to do in my mum's hair. It was like what inspired me. And I was like, maybe I could go to Hollywood. Maybe I could do this. So I moved to Hollywood. And for the first three months, I didn't do anything. Didn't work. And I ran out of money. I'm a father of two by that point. And I remember I got a call to do Christine Aguilera's hair on The Voice. and I was really excited about it, but then paralyzed with fear.

25:27And I was on the way to do a hair for The Voice and I remember saying to them over with my kids, Kate, who are still best friends. And I was just like, I'm so scared. Like, I can't, I just am terrified. Like, I can't do this. Who the fuck do they think I am? I completely had imposter syndrome. I was like, who do I think I am? What am I playing at? Like, this is crazy. This is the big stuff. This is Hollywood. This is what I used to look at when I was a kid. and I'm not worthy of this and I remember her saying look if you don't make this work Chris you're gonna have to come home like I'd spent my money LA was so expensive I had two kids support and so I went to the voice and I thought I'm gonna do this I'm gonna be great so there was three hours for glam and the hairstylist the makeup artist went in and left me waiting outside and an hour went by and I still wasn't invited in so I was thinking oh well maybe she's got someone else to do her hair like she just wants some finishing touches you know another hour went by and i'm like well it's really not a lot of time so maybe this is just all a mistake it's probably a mistake that's probably a mistake i think i think i should go home i think i think i should be here and then i remember the last 20 minutes before the live show they were like oh you can go in now and so i went in and she's like what do you want to do and i was like i want to have three hours of glam you know but in my head i'm like oh well and hair was ready to be done and i I was like, had all these wigs prepped, had all these pieces.

26:49And I thought that would be a really quick way to sort of like change the look up, do something fun. And the blonde wig was like a bit cooler in color, wasn't as warm as what she was using. And so she's like, oh, I don't like wigs. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why would you like wigs? I said, why would you like anything I've got to do, really? And I was like, she can see me. And I felt like little Chris. I felt like the little boy standing at the window and I felt like I was him standing in front of her. And she's just looking at me like I'm a loser. You know, like I'm like, not that she was, but I felt that.

27:23Your painter was loud. And fear was coming through my body. You know, when it like paralyzes you, you're like, oh my God, I'm just, I felt like my arms couldn't move. And my, I just felt like I froze. And then I had this very distinct moment. And it was a really big moment in my career where it felt like the clouds kind of parted. And it was this moment where I remember Kate's voice and she was like, if you don't make this work, you're going to have to go home. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, I didn't come this far to come this far. Like, I know what I'm doing. If she doesn't like what I'm going to do, that's okay.

27:57Like, if she doesn't like what I've got to do, that's okay. It's just not a match. But if I don't do me and do what I'm good at, I will always kick myself. You know, if I don't show her what I can do, like, I'll always kick myself. I miss that opportunity. so I got one of the wigs out of the bag and I sort of put it on her head and said let's just try it because you've never seen one of mine let's just see what it looks like and she was like oh you know and I was good at wigs because I'd worked with cancer patients in the salon I got really good at like tailoring them doing a little room wigs have come on so far but back then it was there still weren't like all up to date with the rooting and the plucking of the hairline anyway I did all that because of these cancer patients that I worked with and she was like oh and the stylist was like oh I like it and so I put it on ahead and off she went and she went on live on the show and everything's messed up like oh my god I hope it looks good and I was watching the screen I was like taking little sneaky pictures I'd send it to Kate I'm like she's like it looks good I'm like yeah I think it looks good I think it looks good and then I remember she came off set and she was talking to like the other judges and she looked over and she went everyone likes your wig and then like carried on talking and in that moment I knew I'd done it I was like oh I did And I worked with her a few years after, and that was kind of the beginning of like everyone then recognized their hair.

29:07And we did these hoops in her hair and it became a thing. And then I started working with Ariana and the lavender hair and it just snowballed. But in that defining moment, it could have been very different. Because if I had to get into that fear that literally was consuming my whole body, I wouldn't be here now when I wrote the book and I wouldn't be in LA. As that professional career was exploding, your personal life, two kids, at 26 you came out during a difficult transition period in your life. Yeah. If somebody's going through something like that, what would you say to them? The best thing you can do is start.

29:43Just start by recognizing that there's something that you want to change, something that maybe doesn't make you happy. You keep getting yourself into the same patterns of relationships. You get the same outcome that you don't like. even if you look in the mirror and think is this it is this is this enough is this what I want the lowest moments of my life where I have made that comeback I didn't know what the next day I didn't know what the next minute was going to be like but I surrendered in that moment and just knew that I wanted to change something and so I think to anyone listening that is in a situation that they feel lost in or unsure of or wouldn't change it's just about first of all looking and acknowledging that and like this i want to change i want to i want to create something different i want to change this pattern and and just starting there is is the first place because so many people say i want to change but i don't even know how to start and just start at start you know don't have to get to end you don't have to get to the middle there's no rushing through it because doing the work is hard you have to really face some stuff you have to really look at yourself you have a real look at the mirror for all the bits that you don't like inflorescent yeah you really do it's a real magnifying glass and that's why a lot of people i think struggle in relationships because it's such an exp it's basically a mirror it's that other person tends to be a mirror to you and i think that's why you know a lot of people can struggle in relationships because it's it makes them look at themselves you know and if you're not comfortable doing that it's never going to work you've got to be comfortable yourself before you can get involved in something else you know you've got to be aligned with who you are you know know who you are what's important to you and you know grow with someone but you shouldn't be fully unaware of those things because I think that's a dangerous thing to get into do you think that once you align with who you really are your true identity that unlocked even greater success oh god yeah like I just wouldn't I wouldn't well I don't even gonna be alive if I hadn't have found alignment if I hadn't I found myself and come back to myself.

31:44I don't think I'd even be here. It wouldn't be about like having money or having a career or having success. It would be like not be alive. That's how far I went with trying to not be authentic, not be who I was, be defined by my past, be the things people told me I should be. But I started one day at the age of 26, after I did try and take my life and I didn't die. and their next option was to surrender and stop fighting. I didn't even know I was fighting so hard until I stopped, until I just let go. And I felt physically, I remember feeling it in my body, I felt like my shoulders went down and I let go.

32:26And it wasn't a big moment, it wasn't loud, it was very quiet, but I just thought I can't hate myself anymore. I couldn't try and be something else anymore. So what about if I just stop? What about if I just start here? And in surrendering and just starting there, a lot changed. And I didn't know what was going to happen next. I didn't know what was going to happen the next day. But I had that moment right then. I had that. And that was enough. It was enough to say, this is who I am. Acknowledging my past, where I'd come from, seeing that, sitting with it. But deciding I wanted to make a change for the rest.

33:05You know, the rest of the years ahead, I wanted to make a difference. who helped you during that time I mean my family has always been great but I think there's so much you want to protect people from you know like with family I think like you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and it's not anyone's fault that circumstances like everyone does the best they can even as I'm a dad now so even as a dad now I know I've done things that my kids it will affect them and they will need to do work on it's not as if anything was bad intention it's just that it's just like we all got we all kind of grow through life learning the lessons we learn and we do our best to, you know, pass them on to our kids.

33:38And sometimes we don't pass on the right information. So I think I felt like it was a personal journey. Also, I didn't really have anyone to look up to in terms of like, my brothers did very much boys stuff. Like they were mechanics and footballers and firefighters. The girls did kind of girls things. And I didn't really feel like I fit in either. I felt like in a creative space, I was dyslexic. No one else was dyslexic. So I was very verbal. I wasn't very kind of literal. And I think a lot of the journey was my own. I think it really started with just looking at myself. For the first time, it wasn't about someone else looking at me.