Emma Grede’s Guide to Getting Paid What You Deserve and Building Unicorns

22:07Nicole Lapin:When do you think you were the happiest? Was it when you had money or didn't have money? I'm definitely happier with money. Yeah. Like I'd be a liar if I said that I wasn't. No, no, no. I was made to have money. You know, I've been really poor in my life. I just think that I've always been very focused on finding those unlocks that would get me money. I was never shy about saying, hey, I'm happy to be in this company to intern for you, but I'm looking for a job because I need money. And when I got a job, I was always the person knocking on the door saying, hey, I need an increase. I'm delivering X and I really think I deserve Y.

22:49And when I couldn't get that, I'd be like, bye. You know, I never like I've always been very forthright and comfortable about understanding what I am worth and then like transitioning into the situations that would get me to like really where I wanted to be.

23:06Nicole Lapin:And you dig into negotiation in Start With yourself I'd love to dig into negotiation more with you what's the wildest thing you've done in a negotiation oh what is the wildest thing I mean listen close the deal well you know back in the day when you're in like celebrity wrangling right because that's what I did I was essentially the broker the person in the middle between the brand and the celebrity and so you would do pretty wild things you know I don't know that like I'm trying to think of a good one I do remember I do I do remember taking the Dior team this is a story actually I haven't told which is really funny I took the Dior team to meet Natalie Portman ahead of her signing her now kind of you know amazing infamous what is that like running for the last 15 years her fragrance deal with them and Natalie is a famous vegan and the whole team turned up and I was like no guys like you've all got leather shoes and leather accessories and so I went out and bought everybody espadrilles before we did the meeting because I was pretty sure that if all of these people turned up seemingly kind of like ignoring one of her core principles and values that my deal wouldn't get done and so I was like actually like a very you know like not rich broker at the time and to spend like a couple of hundred bucks on other shoes for these people that should have thought about it I was like what is happening here what am I having to do but it all turned out and you know that was a it was a huge unlock for my company like that that deal put us on the map because Natalie had famously never done a commercial it was the year like of you know Black Swan and like this like insane Oscar and this beautiful moment for her in her career and I had the shiny big endorsement in the celebrity space and it really put out I went to every brand and meeting on the planet for the following two years going you know that was my opening picture of my deck so it really it was worth me paying for the espadrilles and tofu and you closed the deal but you know it's like I always think people imagine that there's some like kind of magic to negotiations and really the point of a negotiation is to find you know like this mutually advantageous place on both sides right So it's like it isn't to bash anyone down on either side.

25:23It's actually to bring two sides closer together. And what you need is an intrinsic understanding of what each party is trying to do. And so I really find myself spending a lot of time in negotiations, really going, what are they trying to get? Like not what are they trying to do? It's like, what are they trying to get out of this? And what are they trying to get out of this? And how do I meld those two things together? that. And that's what I'm really good at because I can see things from all sides.

25:50Nicole Lapin:Well, when I was on your podcast, you were talking about a different kind of negotiation that you did with your husband for your prenup at the romantic restaurant. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I actually saw that woman recently who was sitting there and thought it was so amazing that I'd had that conversation with my husband in public, but we laugh about it now. And going into, because you obviously work with your husband, he's your romantic partner, He's your business partner. How do you think about negotiating a personal contract versus a professional contract? Kind of no different in a way, right? At the end of the day, it's even more important that both of you are happy because you're going to see each other every day.

26:29I have to negotiate with people that are very close to me all the time, you know, my own team, my own staff. And so I try to take emotion out of the equation, which is something I talk about a lot in this book, like managing your emotions and making sure that your decision making isn't coming from an emotional place because we all have fear. We all have guilt. We all have things running through our head that really can govern our decisions. And so when I'm in a personal negotiation, I'm trying not to let the emotional piece of it, how much I love you, how much joy we're going to have together, how angry you make me sometimes.

27:08I'm trying not to make my decisions from that basis. And I am the start with yourself girl, which means I start with myself. What do I want? What do I need? What are my principles? What are my values? What do I need to get here? And I'm really serious about that because as a mother of four, I think people find it kind of hard to take, like the idea that I would put myself first. But I do. And I do it kind of unashamedly because I know when I'm good, everything around me is good. It's better for my kids. It's better for my team. It's better for everyone. And so I don't shy away from that idea of having very high self-value and self-worth because I really think it works out for everyone.

27:50Yeah. If mom is good, everybody's good. Everybody's good.

27:52Nicole Lapin:And so if somebody is negotiating their prenup, you probably had to compromise here and there. But what's the thing to remember? Protect what you brought in? Oh, I think 100 % protect what you brought in. But let's be honest, right? Because the time when most of us get married, they're your big earning years, right? Like I think that people are not getting married mostly until like early 30s now. So they're your peak earning years between the age of like 35 and 55. That's when people make their money. And so you really have to protect what you do during your marriage. Now, depending on what type of person you are, you know, that can be really something and really lucrative.

28:34And you have to, you know, I was talking to somebody about this just last night. I was working with somebody in my house who was styling me for some things. And we had this exact conversation. And I think depending on like your money narrative, how you grew up, what you saw from your parents, you'll have all of these feelings and these emotions running through you. And I think what you have to do again is step back and be unemotional about it. What is it that I actually want? What am I trying to optimize for? Like if you feel very, very clear that you have made some money and that is yours and that is like linked to how you feel about yourself, then protect it.

29:10Protect it. if you don't have much and you're relying on the other person, then you don't have as much leverage. You don't, you know, you've got to be honest with yourself, but don't come at like these money conversations with emotion because you'll never get what you need out of it. Like that's just not smart. A lot of women are nervous about prenups. Did you bring it up first? Or would you suggest to bring it up first? I actually don't remember. No, in my husband, I mean, he's so Swedish and straightforward. He probably said, he probably said it to me. He was also much wealthier than I was at that time.

29:43And now things have really evened out. But my husband does very well. And so do I. And we have four kids together. And so it's pretty even Stevens around in our house. But I still get every single thing that we do, investment that we make, house that we buy, major purchases. I still have my own set of lawyers that look out over every single transaction that has my name attached to it. I never want to be that woman. You know, I never want to be left high and dry and wondering what happened.

30:14Nicole Lapin:Well, let's talk about some of the blocking and tackling in career negotiations. I think there are a lot of important strategies that you touch on. And I'd love to do a little role playing. Let's do it. Let's do it. I love a role play. Who am I? Am I the boss or are you the boss? I'm the boss. Okay, fine. Fine. Do you, before we get into, do you think that you should throw out a number? Yes, I do. But I think that that number needs to be researched, right? So the worst thing to me is when somebody comes in and gives me a number that is so out of the realm of possibility. I'm like, you must be stupid.

30:50Therefore, you didn't get the job just because your number was so bad. Right. If you're coming in for a position and the, you know, the salary cap is around 200 and you tell me you need 375, I'm like, what planet are you on? Surely you're not going to do a good job on behalf of me. You can't even value yourself. So I think doing that research in the beginning, right, spending time on LinkedIn, looking at, you know, what the pay, the realm of pay is for that role is so important. And doing it in a way that is relevant to your market. You can't just look at the comps for your position. You have to say, OK, what place is this company in?

31:28Size of the business. Is it a startup? Is it, you know, a mature company? Is it in hyper growth mode? that has a huge difference on what people are willing to pay you. What about a good moment of silence? I love a moment of silence. It's hard for me, Nicole, but I think that anyone that goes into a negotiation has to get comfortable with the silence. And my little thing is like sing a song in your head, like not like a really like, you know, big one, but just do a little, I want to dance with somebody. You know, because it's kind of smisey, but it's not like, you know, it's not mean. So you want to, I want to dance with somebody, Whitney Houston in your head and get to a good part of that song.

32:08Love it. So that you can just like chill it out. Lots of great stuff happens in silence.

32:13Nicole Lapin:And what should women stop saying in negotiations? Like, sorry to bother you, but, or. Like, stop saying too much. You can stop and pause and, and, and don't be, you know, certainly don't be apologizing. but I think that what happens is I don't know how it works here, but you know, it's like, you know, it works pretty much the same everywhere, right? It's like, let's just be honest. Talk about your experience, have specificity. What I hate is that like loosey goosey, like give me the number. What did you do? How did you do it? How much did it save? How much did it generate? Be specific. Like I want you to have specificity and don't waffle, right?

32:55Like you've got, be respectful of somebody's time. You've got an interview. you you got 40 minutes be done at 37 those things matter okay I'm the boss okay and you want to raise finding it hard already but go ahead yes go ahead I want to raise yes I do always um hello Emma you called a meeting nice to see you and thank you for taking the meeting because it's been really important for me to come and talk to you about what I'm doing in the company right now. I don't know if you're aware, but X, Y, Z, right? All the things that you have been doing. Like, and again, I want you to take a step back here and think about the company's goals, not what you have to say.

33:36What is the company trying to achieve? And what have you done that ladders up to those goals? So that's what you're going to express. You're like, I know right now that international distribution is really important to us. And what I have been working on is, right? That's what you're going to do. You're going to talk about all of the things that you've done that ladders into the company's goals. Then you're going to pause and you say, do you have any questions about those projects? Were you aware of them? Because here's the thing, we all go in with complete orientation around ourselves and what we know we've been doing.

34:10The other people don't even know. Your boss may not be aware. So give them an opportunity to come up to speed, to understand that, oh, you were responsible for that? What part did you have in it? What did it generate? Like, what did that project look like? What was that? So you're going to like give the person a moment to catch up with all of the things that you've told them. As a result, my compensation no longer really matches the output of what I'm doing. I've done research and I've seen that XYZ, 250 ,000 would be more commensurate with the work that I'm doing. Can you look at my salary and consider a race, you're currently on 170.

34:50They're not going to give you a number on the spot because any good boss. Yes, I have to think about it.

34:56Nicole Lapin:I have to go back and I have to talk to the board. I have to talk to the team. Absolutely. And here are a couple of things I'd love you to consider while you do that. If you can't get me to the 250 number, I would happily take an offer that gets me there, but I'd like it to happen in a three-month window, right? That gives them the opportunity to come back to you with 2.30 and tell you how you get to 2.50. Those are my favorite negotiations because your idea of what you're doing and your firm or your company's idea of what you're doing can be completely different. But you're not backing down immediately.

35:28You're saying, this is what I want. Having said that, and if it's a really big jump, you're like, I'm happy to do this in steps. By the way, three months is nothing. But you're setting yourself on a path. You're also giving them the opportunity to start looking at what you're doing. For this person whose radar you may not yet be on to start going, oh my goodness, like, look, she, we gave her that 230 and we gave her a bunch of things to do and she's doing them. She should be paid 275. Let's like put her on a fast track. Let's change her position. Let's move her into a new department. So you're creating an opportunity for yourself to be seen.

36:02And what I want everybody to understand is that when you go into those negotiations, it's never just about the negotiation. You want to create visibility and proximity to between whoever is your superior and the work that you're doing. That stuff is really, really important. Don't imagine that anybody is watching you in the same way that you're watching you. And you walk out of that room and you follow up a couple of days later. You don't wait. You know, even if they said, it's going to take me two weeks to go and speak to the board and speak to the, that's fine. In three days, you follow up and you, again, just outline the exact conversation.

36:38Here's what we spoke about. I so look forward to hearing from you. That's what you do. Yeah, because they're thinking about their own race. Of course they are. Everybody's thinking about their own thing. And there's only one pot, right? And so it's like at the end of the day, you have to make sure that when you're coming into a negotiation that is entirely about you, that you never position it as such. Make it about the company. Make it about your contribution. Make it about what you're going to do in the future and what you have done in the past. But don't center it in like, you know, my rent's just gone up.

37:09You know, my dog needs this operation. It's like, nobody cares. Nobody cares.

37:13Nicole Lapin:I was just about to ask you that. So in the past, I've had employees say, like, I just went through a breakup and I need to move or like my dog is sick. What's that got to do with me? Like, am I a softie? If I got to me? Yeah. Yeah. What would you do? I would try to figure out what that means in my business. I mean, don't get me wrong. Of course, there have been people that have come to me in the past with personal circumstances, but I'm really not in the business of giving raises against what's happening in your life. Can you imagine if you when you do that scale? I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that are working for me with lots and lots of thoughts and feelings and things and boyfriends and stuff happening.

37:53You know, there's too many dogs to look after. No, I think that you have to create the conditions in your organization for whatever is happening in somebody's pay packet to be linked to the work that they're doing. And that's really clear in our organization. I think that you can go to anyone from C-suite to customer services and they're going to tell you, here are the three things that make a difference in this company. here is the the goals and here is the focus and this is the work that i need to do that's going to be beneficial to the whole company that way you're all working together you're all on track do you think employees tend to overshare their personal circumstances with female bosses i mean not with me but maybe that's more says more about who i am

38:40Nicole Lapin:so how so that's the tmi that you should leave out i we all have stuff we all have problems It's not appropriate in negotiation. I don't think that that's the time and the place for it. I think that you have to have a level of honesty about your circumstances when they affect the work that you're doing. Like I can't come to work this morning because, you know, my dog has to go to the vet because this thing is happening. OK, that's fine. But I don't need to know the ins and outs. It's not the place. What are questions that interviewers ask you that they never ask yet? Oh, how long? I mean, first of all, there is a special set of questions for females everywhere.

39:21Starts with the balance question. It starts with the mothering question. It goes into the, you know, it's just like, I don't think anybody has ever asked Yens about what he's wearing, what his wellness routine is, how he thinks about skincare. It's like, I love all of that stuff, but there's a time and a place for it, right? they don't ask him about his style as much as they would ask me like what is your leadership style you know like how do you go about things like imagining that like I have some special

39:57Nicole Lapin:lady way to do it you know so do you think we should stop saying female founders and just say founders I mean I've always called myself a female founder and I've done that so deliberately because I want other women to understand that there are lots of different types of female founders I think I am deeply empathetic and I actually think I'm a really great person to work for. I think that that also, there's a side of me that is just really straightforward. Like nobody's ever thinking, I wonder what Emma's thinking right now. It's like, you know what I'm thinking. I already told you. It's not, you know, I don't save it for some special moment when we're going to, you know, have a catch up or a TV.

40:38It's like I told you right there and then. And that creates like really interesting conditions in an organization because the feedback loop is my expectation is that that's what's coming back to me. You told me to. I'm really like clear and honest about my mistakes because I want other people to be able to do that. I leave the office every day at five o 'clock because I want to create the conditions for other parents or non-parents to be able to leave at five to. I come back and I do emails at eight, but it's like I like to go home and have dinner with my kids and read a story with them and put them to bed.

41:12And so those things are ways of behavior that I am very purposeful about as a female founder, because I want women in my organization. And I'm so proud to say that there have been women in my organization who have had three babies and climbed the career ladder. I have people that started with me as junior designers and now are VPs after having three kids and being able to come back to work and still progress. And I think that's because of the conditions that I created in that organization. and I lived it and breathed it and was honest about it importantly and honest about what it would take uh as well as as well as creating the environment for people to be able to do that

41:51Nicole Lapin:so what questions do you think people should stop asking women well like how do you do it all generally yeah like how do you balance how do you balance it how do you do everything what does it look like you know with your kids like what's your routine like all of that stuff I don't know why it's important I guess there's a part of it that you know for some women it could feel like there's an unlock like they literally want to understand how to do it and I appreciate that but there's not much of a mystery there like you have to not do a lot of it which is what I've said in this book start with yourself I didn't find a 25th hour in the day what's more important to ask me is what are you not doing because I don't clean my house and I don't make my kids lunches and I don't take them to school every day there's a bunch of trade-offs and a real set of uh happenings that I just decided were not important for me because I was trying to do other stuff too so I think that if if it's to unlock some honesty and visibility on what's the truth and what works then that's one thing but if it's just to like kind of dig around and create some kind of female found a fantasy, then that's not useful for anybody.

43:06Nicole Lapin:Well, I love that you talk about your army of help that you have. And I think that's important because I think family planning and financial planning should not be separate. They're 1 million percent, 1 million percent. I couldn't agree with you more. They're inextricably linked. I think that we have to take the shame out of that. You know, I was raised by a single mom and at one point, you know, my auntie looked after us and then we had a family friend who looked after us. There was always someone helping my mum you know as the eldest daughter oftentimes that was me I would make the dinner for the kids I would make their packed lunches I would iron the you know the my sister's school shirts before we went to school but you had to pitch in and now we don't live in communities like that anymore and I'm obviously coming from a really privileged position because I have a lot of money which means I have a lot of help but I don't try to hide that like I'm not sitting here going like I'm doing it all like I make the Halloween costumes it's like I don't like I don't And I don't want to.

44:02Nicole Lapin:Yeah. You didn't have wealthy parents, but your kids do. Yeah. And so you could give them anything they want. But do you? I mean, Warren Buffett has said that give your kids enough money so that they can do anything but not nothing. I love that. I would go one step further. I'm not the type of person that is going to give to my kids in that type of way. Like I never imagine a moment that they get bought an apartment from me. I'm going to pay for their education and they can as long as they are in education I will support them and after that they're on their own I don't and here's the thing I think that you make really different choices as a rich kid when you know that there's a big trust fund and part of being human is like figuring out like what am I good at where do I belong who are my people and if you and let me tell you if I had a rich mum and I grew up how I'm raising my kids now I'd have just gone and been like a DJ because I could hang out in the clubs.

44:57That wasn't a choice for me. So I had to find something that I was really good at. Couldn't just like follow my passions, which at that point, an 18 year old, you know, was like hanging out in clubs with boys and, you know, being around a DJ booth. That is never going to be a choice for my kids. I think that I'm not trying to engineer hardships, but by the same token, I think making it too easy stops people from fully becoming who it is that they want to. So as a wealthy parent, you're going to get all the help and all the support from me all the way through college. And then you're on your own, kiddo.

45:30You've got to figure it out. Go and sleep in a shared apartment and find out what you're good at and make money doing that. In the book, you said that parenting is not that deep. It's not that deep. We've made it mad. I don't think parenting has got more difficult. I think that the expectations have become really crazy. and that's largely owing to social media and the wider media and that's why I talk in the beginning of my book about the reason that it's so important to have a vision for yourself and I don't mean like a vision board I mean like a concrete vision of how you want to live and what's important to you what your values and principles are and then to measure yourself by that not by what's going on on the outside and I think that's a little bit of what happened with mothering it's like if you're not sitting there you know like squeezing out your own almond milk like suddenly your kid's gonna like burst into a million pieces because everybody's like dairy intolerant it's like when I was a kid if there was an apple and a packet of chips in the house my mom was like done like that's my job you know I just don't think we need to like pave the way for every interaction every single thing that our kids do do every single you know like organize every play date watch what's in their diet manage all their preferences it's like it's just not a good use of time and nor is it particularly good for the kids I think that my kids need like a real lovely loving mother who worships them and is there when they fall over and then when they want to have a chat and sits and watches the tv with them and that's about it you know I get them fed I keep them you know with a roof over their heads and then the rest they can figure out like they'll be fine like you

47:11Nicole Lapin:You and I ate crayons and dirt and look at us thriving. I mean, look at us. Look at us. A quick side question. In the book, you talk about how as a kid you sold YSL shirts that fell off drugs. Oh, yeah. What does that mean? This is like mafia. I love it. It's like so far as mafia. I just used to sell stolen goods. Like that was the way I made money. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more. Well, I mean, I grew up in the hood, so it was easy to come by, you know, and so you'd have a guy and he'd have a bunch of like YSL, Ralph Lauren shirts or whatever he had that week. And, you know, I would get them and I'd go and sell them and I'd make a bunch of money.

47:49Like that's how, that, that's how I became, I guess that was like my early hustle. That was like how I became an entrepreneur. But you know, what was interesting? I had a paper route too. And I always kept the paper route because I was sure that at one point, you know, whatever was going to happen to that guy would happen to that guy. And, you know, my, my kind of, you know, uh, what do you call it my inventory would cease to uh to be there for me but you know this is the thing I did whatever I had to do as a kid I had a paper out I worked in a deli I sold fireworks I made sandwiches I sold the stolen goods like I did everything to make a buck like because in my head I was literally going to work my way out of where I came from I was like if I just keep working I will be able to propel myself out of where I am.

48:40And by the way, it worked. But, you know, there were some unsavory things that happened along the way. And that was just my reality.

48:48Nicole Lapin:You did anything you could to secure the bag and you did. And I would love to play the secure the bag game with you. What a secure the bag game. I love it. All right, here we go. What's been your most challenging money experience? oh I have so many listen it's always hard when you don't have any money I think for me the first time I made some money I was in my mid-20s I sold a company I made a little bit of money and it wasn't like can I can I curse on this so it wasn't fuck you money right but it was more money than I'd ever had and to me that was yeah yeah I'd made a couple of million pounds and so So I was just really, for me, it was so difficult because it wasn't like go and buy your mama house like money, you know, but it was enough to make sure that some people around me had a better existence and make sure that I was going to be okay.

49:49And all the things I thought I was going to do, I didn't do. And I invested it in myself instead. Yeah, you did. I mean, when you see zeros like that, like. Dead. I thought I'd won the lottery. I honestly, still to this day, one of the best days of my life. And, you know, it's so funny because the less you have, the more impactful it is, right? Arguably, I've made so much more money, which doesn't feel the same. I remember going, like having a£60 ,000 salary and negotiating£150 ,000 for me. Now that was the best day of my life. I hear this a lot. I was like, oh my God, because that really was a game changer.

50:31That meant I could change apartment. That meant I could, you know, spend more money in the clubs. I could change how I dress. Like that to me was 60 to 150 grand. Game changer. Yeah.

50:43Nicole Lapin:But right now, like you can only live in so many houses. You can only, you know. Yeah. And don't get me wrong. Like all of that stuff is lovely. And money has, it's such an enabler, right? Like what you can do when you have money. It's incredible. but I don't know that that much changes like a certain point. What's a money mistake that still haunts you? I'm going to be really honest. So I married a Swedish man when I was 20. I'm still married to him. Same man. When I was 12. How old was I when I got married? Damn. 29. I was 29. Up until then, and the reason I say Swedish man like that, he is so fiscally responsible.

51:25I am naturally, I used to have this boyfriend that called me a squander bird, which I thought was such a good way of describing me. Like the money would come in. If I get 100, I'm spending 100. Right. It's like just how I'm wired. I'm like a spenny girl. And I think that I did that for so long and I craved something else. I craved this security. And watching how Jens, how responsible he was with money really changed my relationship to it. I just thought that that was like a safer way to live. So I haven't really been, just to answer your question, like I haven't really made a lot of mistakes with money because I'm so careful and I've learned to be really, really careful.

52:06So I just, I think apart from that one spin in my mid twenties where I was like, I'm going to put all this money on myself. I have been so fiscally responsible. I know the price of everything, like everything. And I'm really like, I'm quite frugal, not frugal in a way. Like, you know, it's like I have nice stuff. I like to spend money, but I am very mindful and have huge awareness over what I'm spending. you know what I'm doing how much every single thing costs and I like to be you know it's like I pay for things and I do things and I spend a lot of money but I know what I'm spending like there's never an accident I'm never like oh my god like ever ever ever ever ever never do you ever fear that it's gonna go away no no I don't because to me I've seen enough to know that it comes and it goes right I think that I was surrounded my life was so kind of built on that like boom and bust cycle as a kid like I saw it all around me you know you see a a guy that was like doing really well doing whatever he was doing and bought a BMW and did whatever they put you know new glazing in their house and it was like boom the next thing you knew he was an alcoholic and they had no money and the kids were like it was a disaster and so I saw that all around me And I think that's what created a level of kind of fiscal responsibility that is kind of only grown the more money that I have.

53:33But I even watched my mum as a kid. She was very like, you know, used to write checks in those days and she would write everything down, the gas, the heating, the milk, the groceries. And then she'd write checks for them and then she'd balance it all out and she'd be like, right, this is what we've got to live on. You know, and it was very clear to me like how everything had to stretch. And so I'm not, I just don't think about what I have lasting forever because I've seen, I've seen things come and things go, but it's not what scares me. It does. It's not, that's not what drives me. I believe in my ability to always make money no matter what.

54:11I could lose it all tomorrow. I'll start again and I'll be fine. Have you ever felt used? No, I'm too tough for that. And I tell you why. Because when you come from where I come from, East London, the hood, you have an aversion to anyone taking anything from you. And so I just can't be used. You know, it's just like not in it's just not anywhere near me. Like, I think you're going to take advantage before you've even taken advantage. and even that is not a thing that I love to admit but I'm naturally very distrusting and so I never even get there you know it's like you couldn't take advantage of me because I've already clocked you and like I've I've got rid of you you know I'm a good shedder I shed people if I smell it I'm like you know like what's a sign oh you know if I like any type of behavior money any like I do I am not a money lender, I will give you money, right?

55:10It's like, if you come to me and you're like, oh my goodness, like, you know, shit's hit the fan and I need to lend 10 ,000. If I am in a position, I'm going to give you the 10 grand. I never expect you to pay it back. And it's like, I'm not going to sit there, you know, worried about you paying me back. If I have a good friend who needs something, but I don't set myself up in those situations for anybody to owe me anything because it's a really unhealthy way to live. And I think that that's something that played out in my childhood and I just don't. But I don't, I also don't conflate it. Like I don't miss, like I don't conflate friendship and money.

55:44I'm like, if I have something, then I'm happy to spend it. I'm happy to take everybody on their vacation. I'm happy to have you as the guest on my boat. I'm like, those things are totally fine to me, but to owe me anything or to dodge me or to seemingly be wanting something from me, I am allergic to it. I smell it a mile away and we're just not friends what does it smell like it smells like shit nicole smells shit can you imagine it's not a smell i like and i get rid of it as quick as you get rid of shit

56:19Nicole Lapin:could not adore you more and sister you are like the it girl of the moment get out of town had to reshoot boss bitch like I would put you on the cover it has just felt like you have exploded though over the last few years was that an intentional choice to move out of the background like were you building your personal brand in stealth what yeah I think there was I never thought about it like personal brand which from a kind of I would consider myself a marketing expert sounds really trite but the truth is I I got frustrated with the way I was being labeled right I was very like wait a second you know I am I am a person that has a lot of experience I have worked or had a job since I was in my teens I have a really good reputation in my business and so I thought what was happening is that I was kind of getting branded into this like cute girl boss and I was like guys you do realize that I go to work every day that my life isn't a photo shoot that like you seeing me on vacation is like my vacation I don't take pictures of me in my office and so I really was like I've got to change that because I want and need people to understand like all these mistakes that I've made how hard I've worked all the crap that I've taken the bosses that I had before I started my own businesses, the trials and tribulations that I had starting companies.

57:53And so I was like, you just have to tell the truth of what this stuff is. So I started to be more public because it was almost like this correction that needed to happen. And with that, turns out people like it when you're honest. So that's what happened. But I really thought that there was some value in me sharing that it's not as, you know, as you see things. that actually there's an unbelievable amount of work and strategy and hardship and stuff that just didn't work out and maybe wasn't Instagrammable that I wanted to share. And I thought that that would be a value. Like when I wrote this book, I wasn't like, let me write my life story.

58:30I was like, let me write something that you can use rather than something that you read. I imagined that people would pick this book up and go to the section on money or on family and And they would be like, oh, I see. I need to rewire my thinking. I've got some old thoughts in my head that need addressing. So I was like, create something that people can actually use. And I think that was really the genesis of me trying to be a little bit more public because I just thought when I come off of the stage at a conference, the questions were always the same. You know, it's like, oh, my goodness. Like, how do you do what you do?

59:05And I was like, well, it's not magic. I really worked for it.

59:08Nicole Lapin:so the genesis was take back your story but what's the end game like are we the next oprah are we building the next lvm mate what are we doing here sister oh my god you know oprah is my number one person in the world you know what i really think like opportunities have always like i've always had to go and find my opportunities never have i been in a position where i am now where things come to me. And so I thought I would see what's going to come to me. And in the same time, I was like, what do you want to do? Like, I think about myself, I'm a pretty good teacher. The people that work with me are like, I learned a lot from Emma.

59:49Like she's, she's really hard. She has really high standards. It was like crazy three years of my working life, but I learned a lot. And I was like, wouldn't it be good if I could actually teach a lot of people? And so in my head I thought about the podcast as being this platform where it's like I'm going to teach you how to interview I'm going to teach you how to use AI beyond it being a search engine I'm going to lift the lid on how Reese Witherspoon made all of that money with her company and how she really feels about it but I was like thinking about it as like edutainment you know like I was like I'm going to take all the things that I've learned and make it more useful than just me making a lot of money.

1:00:28And so that was all that was in my head. And right now I'm like an open book. It's like, I'm still operational in my companies. I still, you know, my studio's in my office. So it's like, I go to work every single day and take meetings. You know, it's like, I take meetings for all the companies, like in between doing whatever it is that I'm doing. So right now I'm, I really believe that when you do great stuff, the opportunities will come. And when you have a great product, you can do anything with it. And so I'm kind of saying to myself, I'm going to stay open. And I'm going to concentrate on being really good at this stuff.

1:01:01And it's not what comes naturally to me. You know, it's like I'm not a professional interviewer. I'm not, you know, a great writer. It's like I'm super dyslexic. So I have to work really hard on those things. And so I thought I'll just have like a couple of years of going, what am I other than somebody that goes into an office and cranks it out every day? Because that's all I know. That's all I've known for 20 years.

1:01:26Nicole Lapin:and also you've gotten so much traction with it in your book you talk about creating a plan for when you turn 30 for when you turn 40 you kept it on your phone now you're creating a plan for when you turn 50 what does that look like you know it looks like having a different pattern in my life you know like again I've woke up every day for 20 years I work out early I come home late I get back on the you know computer I send hundreds of emails every day I have meetings with lots and lots and lots of people because I work in product right so it's like you have 60 people in a proto meeting it is draining it is draining driving those companies it is a lot of work and I thought that what I should do is try to create a different flow in my work day you know Nicole there was maybe it was I can't believe I'm going to say this it might have been two years ago two years ago I dropped one of my kids off at school.

1:02:21I had a cancellation. I was like, I'm going to walk from the school to the coffee place. As I was walking, I realised I had never done that. I have never, ever had a slot where I could take that free moment and go and do what I wanted to do, which in that moment was get a coffee. Meanwhile, I went past about 27 mothers from the school that were all, you know, in their leggings, thankfully they were skims, going to get their coffees. And I was like, what is happening? So I have to just create a little bit of space in my life because I have been doing the same thing for a really long time. And as much as I love it, I just want a different rhythm.

1:02:58That isn't to say I want to stop working. I will work until I'm 90, until I'm dead. I just want to have a slightly different rhythm in my day.

1:03:07Nicole Lapin:So when you come back, you're 43 now? I'm 43. I've been telling everyone on this book tour, by the way, that I'm 42 until my husband corrected me two days ago on a Zoom call. He's like, you're fucking 43. I was like, oh my God, I'm 43. So seven years, when we chat, when you're 50, what is that, like, what does the bio edition say? Oh, great, great question. I would really want it to be that I have helped, like, make a million little emas, that there are a bunch of girls that, on paper, shouldn't really, you know, start at their own companies or be doing these big jobs. And that something I did, or I said, or, you know, they learned from me, change the way that they think.

1:04:02And they went on a different path. And I think that that always has to be the ultimate goal, because I know in my life that when you like, when you touch people, when you are able to like changed somebody's trajectory a bit like Oprah did for me like that's the most valuable thing that you could ever have and I've done the stuff right it's like I've made the money I have four kids I'm very happy in my life now I'm like oh you have a different responsibility because people look to you and you could make that really important and impactful and so I think it would be amazing if that was something that I could do you know it's like if I built a school or made like a center for people you know women and girls to come to and you know there was like a special emma course so like whatever it was but I did it in a way that I think you know for me when I go back to East London I'm like there's so much talent here there's so much but there's no opportunity and so I if I could like figure out how I can help those things collide I'd be like one and done

1:05:06Nicole Lapin:well thank you for giving the the mini master class here as you know we end all of the episodes by asking for one final investing or money tip that our listeners can take straight to the bank you know here's the thing that I really learned when I made some money and invested in myself it was a risk but it was the the best risk that I've ever taken and I think that if given the opportunity and it can be, you know, it can be directly with money. It can be an investment in the sense of time and your learnings. I think figuring out what it really means to invest in yourself is probably the best use of time and money and energy that you could ever make.

1:05:49And I mean like really sitting down and going, what can I do for me that will impact me? What is going to allow me to really take this idea of what it means to start with myself and take it seriously and so I would do that I would think about the tip being like self-investment that pays most dividends later on damn right it does