How To Be the Kind of Leader People Trust With Simon Sinek

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2:53Otherwise, 1.00 % APY applies. No min balance required. Chime card on-time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms. I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some Money Rehab.

3:15Hey, Money Rehab fam. I'm Minda Hartz, and if you've heard yesterday's episode, you know that I'm guest hosting for Nicole this week while she's out on maternity leave. My new book, Talk to Me Nice, comes out this summer, and it's all about the seven trust languages that can transform our workplaces. So this week is all about trust, building and repairing it. In each episode, I'm zooming into one of the languages of trust with a special guest. Today, we're focusing on follow through, that crucial bridge between saying and doing. My guest knows a thing or two about turning vision into action. His TED Talk on Start With Why has been viewed over 60 million times, and he's been teaching leaders how to create environments where people operate at their natural best.

4:00Simon Sinek is an unshakable optimist and founder of the Optimism Company. Let's welcome him to the show.

4:11Simon, welcome to Money Rehab. Thanks for having me. Happy you're here. you often talk about the importance of the infinite game versus the finite game. Can you first define the difference between the two and then explain how follow-through plays into creating lasting impact versus quick wins? In the mid-1980s, a philosopher and theologian by the name of Dr. James Karras defined these two types of games, finite games and infinite games. A finite game is defined as known players, fixed rules, and an agreed-upon objective, football, baseball. If there's a winner, necessarily there has to be a loser or losers.

4:47But more importantly, there's always a beginning, a middle, and an end. Infinite games are different. Infinite games, there are known and unknown players. So you don't necessarily know who all the players are, and new players can join the game at any time. The rules are changeable, which means every player can play however they want. And the objective is to perpetuate the game, to stay in the game as long as possible. So we are players in infinite games every day of our lives, whether you know it or not. Nobody will win marriage. You'll never be number one in marriage. It doesn't exist, right?

5:19Nobody will ever win healthcare or education. You can come in first for the finite amount of time that you're in school where we agree upon the metrics called grades, but nobody wins education. Nobody wins career. And definitely no such thing as winning business. But if we listen to the language of so many people, it becomes very clear that they don't know the game they're playing in. You hear so many people talk about being number one, being the best, beating their competition. Based on what? Based upon what agreed upon objectives, metrics, and timeframes. And this is a problem because when we play with a finite mindset in an infinite game, when we play to win in a game that has no finish line, there are some very predictable and consistent outcomes.

6:03The big ones are the decline of trust, the decline of cooperation, and the decline of innovation. Wow. I think you just broke some hearts, Simon. And, you know, somebody's thinking I'm going to win marriage, you know. Right, exactly. All I have to say is how's that working out for you? Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad you put that into context. And you hit on something that's really important to me, which is trust in the workplace. And I know that you teach people and leaders how to be someone people can trust. What's the secret? So, I mean, everybody knows how to do this stuff, right? This is the funny thing about trust.

6:37First of all, let's be crystal clear. Trust is a feeling. You can't order someone to trust you, right? It doesn't work. You can't instruct someone, tell someone, you can trust me, trust me. It doesn't work that way. A trust is a feeling. And that feeling is produced naturally when, as human beings, we recognize that the people who are trying to build our trust are open and honest with us, that they consider our needs, our feelings, our desires, that they wouldn't sacrifice us to protect their own short-term selfish interests. We know how to do this. We know how to make friends. We know how to build relationships.

7:16You know, if people keep secrets, if people are shady, if people aren't up front, if people don't take accountability, you're allowed to screw up. You just have to say sorry and admit the thing that you did that made somebody, you know, suffer or feel a certain way. And if we do this, we build trust. Some people are willing to give trust sooner than others. There's no right speed to do it. Some are quick, some are slow, but we have to be consistent in doing all of these very normal human things in order to build trust. It's always funny to me that people think that it's different at work than it is in any other kind of relationship.

7:54That's true. You know, it's funny. I often say, if I expect trust in my romantic relationship, why wouldn't I expect that from my colleague or my manager? I mean, this is a deal breaker in my love life, right? Why not my career? And look, I understand that all of these relationship dynamics are not the same. There's the formal hierarchy in a work relationship. I would say there's not necessarily a formal hierarchy in personal relationships, but it depends on your relationships. Sometimes there's definitely a boss in that relationship. That is true. There are rules. Exactly. There are rules. But the point is, even though the places in which the relationships exist and the dynamics may be different, it's still human beings attempting to feel psychologically safe with other human beings.

8:40Yeah, perfect. You know, it made me think about follow through. And I think sometimes in the workplace, that's where trust is eroded. So I'm curious, how can a leader be consistent with follow through when they're trying to build better relationships with their team? I mean, I love the way you phrased that, which is, you know, how can a leader be consistent and follow through? The answer is be consistent and follow through. What's important to acknowledge when we talk about consistency is really there's two dynamics. There's intensity and there's consistency, right? Intensity tends to be just that short, easily measured, you know, fixed in time.

9:18So let's like go to the dentist. Like I can make an appointment to go to the dentist. I know I have to go twice a year. I know pretty much what's going to happen. And it's an intense experience. And it's a beginning, the middle, and it's end, and it's over. And to be healthy, to have a healthy teeth and healthy gums, you have to go to the dentist twice a year, right? But if that's all you did, all your teeth would fall out. The intensity is not enough. The consistency is what keeps your teeth healthy. You have to brush your teeth every single day for two minutes in the morning and two minutes in the evening.

9:46Now, what does brushing your teeth for two minutes do. It does absolutely nothing unless you do it all the time. But what if I'm tired and I don't feel like brushing my teeth and I want to go to bed? Can I do that? Yes, you can. Well, how many nights can I take off? I don't know and neither does any dentist, right? And so it's the same in human dynamics. You can't repair trust with intensity alone. Like you can't screw up and violate someone's trust and then simply buy them flowers and everything's good. You can't simply get down and say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and everything's fine.

10:16Those are intense experiences. You still may need to do those things, but it's the little things that by themselves actually do very little, but done over time, demonstrate that you can repair any kind of broken trust if you need to. So for example, you take any kind of relationship, let's take a business relationship, a work relationship where you're kind of shady and don't tell somebody about a client because you want to get the commission and you guys share all the time. And there's one time you didn't because you got a little greedy that month. Right. And your friend is like, WTF, we share everything.

10:57And we know that sometimes I win a little more and sometimes you win a little more, but we help each other out and it all evens out in the wash. WTF, like now you're just putting yourself ahead of me. I can't trust you anymore. Right. And sending them one client, you know, that month doesn't fix it. It's going to have to be, A, going back to the way it was, and you're going to have to amp it up a little bit. You're going to have to sort of even be more vulnerable and show even more stuff and give away even more to rebuild that trust and then do it consistently. And it may take a week. It may take a month.

11:26It may take longer. There's no right amount of time for trust to be restored for a couple of reasons. One is it depends on the violation. But it also depends on the other person. That person may have had this happen every single time, so now they just don't trust anybody. Right. So and to have these honest conversations, what can I do to restore trust? What specifically do you need from me to restore trust? Like you have to have that conversation. It's an uncomfortable conversation. You can't be defensive. Sometimes the person knows and sometimes the person doesn't know. And we take accountability.

12:02I screwed up. I am sorry. I got greedy. And you're absolutely right. I violated the trust that you and I had built. And if I were in your position, I would feel the same way. I did that. You can't be like, well, I had a busy month and I've got bills. Excuses don't work. Accountability works. That's the first step in rebuilding trust is accountability. That's the chef's kiss. And I think that's the hardest, one of the hardest thing is owning it, owning this stuff, right? When it's happened. Saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong. Saying you're sorry means you recognize that your words or your actions cause some sort of negative effect in somebody else's life, even if it's just hurting their feelings, right?

12:46The minute you add the word but after I'm sorry, literally, grammatically, what but does is it negates the thing before it. I'm sorry, but literally means I'm not sorry. Sorry with an excuse like sorry, but you know what that's, you know, it's like what's going on. No. And the analogy I give is if you're in the airport with your wheelie bag heading to the gate, you accidentally run over someone's foot. You're going to turn around to them and you're going to be like, I'm so sorry. Why? Because it's your wheelie bag. Clearly, you didn't do it on purpose. Right. But it's your wheelie bag. Now, can you imagine if you ran over someone's foot and you just stood there and they look at you and go, you ran over my foot and you say, I didn't do it on purpose.

13:30A fight would ensue. Right. And so all we're saying is, is that your words and your actions are the wheelie bag. It's OK if you didn't intend it. It happened. And so you have to take accountability for your words and your actions, even if you didn't intend it. That's just called, you know, sort of normal functioning society. Just like you would immediately apologize for your wheelie bag, you immediately have to apologize for your words and actions if they cause someone discomfort or pain. I love that, Simon, because essentially it's like the intent versus the impact. Yeah, I didn't mean to roll over your toes, but I did hurt your toes.

14:05And it's so common, right? People like, you know, when people like, why didn't you apologize? Like, well, I didn't mean to do it. I understand that, but you still did it. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, you touched on something before, but the psychological safety. And I'm curious if you could tell me a little bit about how does follow through impact psychological safety in the workplace or the lack of. So follow through is about expectations, right? Yes. So we set expectations and are we fulfilling those expectations? And follow through, the ability to fulfill the expectations that you set are some of the steps that you take to build trust.

14:46Also, being clear about when you can't follow through. So the thing that I struggle with the most, my personal life and my professional life, which is I'm trying to make it work for everybody. So five friends say to me, are you free on Saturday? I don't want to say no to anybody. So I make five plans. You're from 9 to 11. You're from 1130, right? And of course, that's not how it works. I end up running late. There ends up being traffic. I end up missing one. I end up pushing the others. And now I've got three pissed off people, right? In other words, my follow through sucked there. And so sometimes the discipline to manage expectations is to simply say, I cannot do that.

15:29I won't agree to it. So can I see you Saturday? No, no, because I will let you down. The odds are too high. Or, hey, Simon, will you do my taxes for me? No, no, I will not. It will not go well. You will go to jail if I do your taxes. Right. And so I think follow through is only partially the execution, which is the obvious part. Do the thing you say you're going to do. But it's also managing expectations and giving people heads up before you let them down. Because part of follow through is not just the actual doing of it. It's letting people know that they need a backup plan. Like, hey, I know I said I could do this for you by Thursday.

16:13It's Tuesday now. I can already see I'm not going to get to it. I would argue that that's a successful follow through because you can work with somebody or allow them to figure out a backup plan. So communication and expectation setting, I think, helps people follow through more or not just simply fulfilling the actions. Because I'd rather somebody tell me they're not going to do a good job than do a half-assed job. But, hey, I did it on time, quote unquote. Right. I followed through. I followed through. I'm like, yeah, technically, yes. Technically, yes. Yeah. No, I love that because, I mean, listen, as leaders, as colleagues, as managers, the market's going to change.

16:50change the raise that you thought was you were going to give somebody is not going to happen your intention may be that but you still have to communicate to maintain what trust hopefully was there right and sometimes look we're all guilty of it like hey at the end of this year you're definitely going to get a raise but the numbers aren't working out we can't afford a raise and i said i know i said i'd give you a raise and i feel awful but let me show you the numbers now where it it's dangerous is when we, and this breaks psychological safety, is when leaders keep things for themselves, right? Like, listen, I'm not going to give you your bonus, but you should see mine, right?

17:32And so we see that one of the reasons companies break trust with employees, it's actually really interesting if you're into this kind of stuff, if you're a nerd like me, there's actually an anthropological constant. There's an anthropological reason we have leaders. This is why, quote unquote, leaderless movements or leaderless organizations don't work, right? Which is actually violates our anthropology. So if we go back many thousands of years, early Homo sapien, where so we've been farming only for about 10 to 12 ,000 years, right? That's it. but prior to that we lived in populations that were rarely bigger than about 150 this is where dunbar's number come from if you're into that kind of stuff anyway we lived in these populations about 150 200 people and you know we all have to kind of work together and help each other out because it's dangerous right and these are austere times so the hunter gatherers go out and they get food and we're all pretty hungry when you're living with 150 200 people and you bring food back to the tribe, who eats first?

18:37If you're the guy who's built like a football player, you can shove your way to the front of the line. But if you're the quote unquote artist of the family, you're going to get an elbow in the face. Now, this is a bad system for cooperation, because if you punched me in the face this afternoon, the odds are pretty high, I'm not going to wake you and alert you to danger tonight. Right? And so we evolved into hierarchical animals. We're constantly assessing and judging each other who's higher in whatever the pecking order is. And every different group and every different tribe has different standards, right?

19:12And in companies, we have a formal pecking order, right? There's a leadership. There's a structure. There's a hierarchy, right? And if you're higher in the hierarchy, you get special treatment, right? So in the tribes, go back way when, if we assess that you are the alpha in the tribe, we stepped back and allowed you to eat first. So leaders, alphas, got first choice of meat and first choice of mate. And I may not get to eat first, but I definitely get food and I don't get an elbow in the face. Good system. And that system is alive and well today. Like, we don't have a single problem that somebody higher in the system makes a higher salary than me.

19:50I may think they're an idiot, but no one is morally offended that somebody more senior makes a higher salary, gets a better parking space or a corner office. It offends no one. Right. However, the group is not stupid. We don't give first choice of meat and first choice of mate. We don't give all these perks to our alphas, to our leaders for free. There's a deep-seated social contract that when danger threatens the tribe, the people who are actually better fed, the people who are actually smarter, actually stronger, there's an expectation that they are going to be the ones that will rush towards the danger to protect the rest of us.

20:31That's why we gave first choice of mate, because we want to keep your genes in the gene pool in case you die. We're not stupid. And this is where things get haywire in the modern world, right? We don't have a problem that somebody more senior makes a lot more money than me. That's fine. I got no problem with that. The problem is that when danger threatens the tribe, when we have a bad economy or a bad quarter or something happens, and then we use mass layoffs so that the leaders can protect their bonuses. that's when we have problems of trust what we want to see is that our leaders will make a short-term sacrifice to protect our interests not sacrifice our lives to protect their short-term interests and it literally goes against our very anthropology our very nature's human beings that's where you have huge huge trust issues inside organizations

21:26hold on to your wallets money rehab will be right back and now for some more money rehab

21:39you know as you were talking it's making me think about your book leaders eat last and essentially what you're talking about is you know how do great leaders prioritize their people and i'm just curious for those who are like, oh, that happened so many thousands of years ago, Simon, but what about today, right? We see it each and every day. We're seeing it, get back to work. What advice would you give to our leaders on how they can prioritize their people and make sure that they're keeping trust as the main character? So, I mean, we have to be very careful, right? And you're 100 % right. And what starts to happen is we start to conflate all these different things that are happening, you know, which is you're not prioritizing me, you know, you're violating my boundaries, I want to work from home, you know, and what the leaders are saying is, look, here are the rules of the tribe.

22:26The rules of the tribe are, we want you at work five days a week. If you don't like the rules of our tribe, you will do much better at a different tribe, right? But if you're okay with the rules of our tribe, welcome, and we will take care of you, and you will take care of us. And this is why the best organizations are values-based organizations. Basically, values-based organizations say is, if you share our values, then we will make a deal and look out for each other. If you violate our values and you prove yourself to be uncoachable, then we will politely ask you to go work at another company.

23:05And as we as employees say, hey, leaders, values are not just things we write on the walls. Values are things that we expect you to uphold as well. And if you violate the values, then I have the right to leave. And I also have the right to raise my hand and ask what's going on. We assume good intent, always, we assume good intent. And so we want to work in values-based organizations where the leaders and the people, because those are the rules of the tribe. So in this modern day and age, what we very often see, unfortunately, is money prioritized over people. and you can look at, I mean, insurance is the big topic right now, you know, after the assassination of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare and you and I live in Los Angeles and insurance is a thing, right?

23:51This is what we're all talking about now. I experienced it, having it one day and not having it the next. So you're going to start seeing these questions, right? So when a company announces record profits and then refuses to pay out on a policy, we start raising our hand and saying, hold on, what's the point of having insurance? And if they start prioritizing their shareholders over their customers, then we get to raise our hand and say, hold on, what's going on? And it's okay for a company to say, hey, shareholders, we made no profit this month because we had to take care of Los Angeles, but our finances are strong and this is an anomaly.

24:31It doesn't make sense how you should have maximum profit when we have a huge tragedy like this. So you're going to start seeing these stories play out, you know, and we'll see whether the insurance companies can prove themselves to be trustworthy or untrustworthy. Are they prioritizing their short term interests with our well-being or they're prioritizing our well-being to protect their short term interests? We'll soon find out. Great leaders understand this. And we've seen great leaders. One of my favorite great leaders, Bob Chapman, CEO of Barry Waymiller. During the 2008 recession, where companies like his were laying off people all over the place, Bob Chapman made a public announcement to his company that says no one will get laid off.