How Your Money Trauma Becomes Your Kid's

22:41Nicole Lapin:Oh, okay. So it's not and how are you going to work to get it? Or if she's of that age, we can say yes and come up with a plan and I'll help you get it in six years. You know, yes, and. So you're saying yes, you're joining her, you're validating her, you're not belittling her for wanting the diamond or the Bugatti or the cute boy or the cute car. I mean, we don't shame people for wanting things. This world is full of attraction. You know, it's okay, right? I want the cute shoe or the cute jeans. It's okay to want. But we got to then ask the tough question, and do I need it? and can I have it later?

23:25And how do I work for it? The yes doesn't mean you have to indulge and be entitled. The yes is I get you. I see you. I hear you. I do too. No problem. But it also doesn't have to be a no. Like, no, like you're so stupid or no, that's not for us. Why? Maybe it is for us. We don't know. We don't know. Let's wait and see. You know?

23:48Nicole Lapin:Well, I like to reframe it too because I heard money doesn't grow on trees, which feels very scarce too. Instead, to reframe it, money grows where you invest it. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. There is an abundance capacity, but you also have to work for it as well. You have to meet it. So what you have taught my daughter is money is everywhere, but you have to go meet it, right? You have to go find it. It's not going to just drop from the tree or from the heaven. You have to find it. And you have to arrive at a place where you are worthy to keep it, grow it, save it, and keep it in your life. It's a big responsibility to have a lot of money.

24:27And you have an obligation to share, right? So it's find it, keep it, grow it, save it, share it. Yes, I love the save, share, spend.

24:41Nicole Lapin:Three different buckets. So how does this conversation differ for boys and girls? Because you have not now written one book, but two books. One Raising Conscious Sons and one Raising Conscious Daughters. Why are these two conversations so different depending on the gender of the kid? Well, they're different for three reasons. Number one, boys and girls are different hormonally, in their brain chemistry, in their neurobiology, whether we like it or not. There is tremendous overlap. And some boys are more this way and some girls, sure. But we can also honor differences and celebrate how freaking different they are.

25:18Okay. The second reason I wrote two books is because the algorithm treats them differently. The algorithm understands the boy's brain chemistry is heavily dependent on testosterone and dopamine. And the girl's is heavily dependent on estrogen and oxytocin. And the third reason is because culture treats them differently. And we know so obviously how culture treats girls differently and treats boys differently. So in terms of money, culture is always telling boys that they better make a lot of it. And their worth is tied to the cars they have, the house they have, the provisions, the protection they can provide in terms of money.

25:57And culture tells girls now that you can make your own money, which is great. But it's a trap for girls because culture also tells them that you need to be a great mom and you need to stay at home and you need to be there for your family. And you now need to make money. So how is a girl supposed to do everything? I mean, she is only one person. So what is she supposed to do? Okay, so then she figures it out. She's like, I'll make all this money, then I'll have a kid, right? And that's a trap too, because it could be too late or she's exhausted. So she's like, don't worry, I'll freeze my eggs. So she's trying to - You're like looking in my soul.

26:33That's you, right? So now it's like, okay, now I better make money by a certain age, and then I'm going to be a mom. And the poor girl is trying to do everything. And then the stay-at-home mom is like, I'm not making any money. So I'm just a loser. So she apologizes. I'm just a stay-at-home mom. You know, so many times mothers say that. And I go, why are you apologizing? Or the woman who's decided not to be a mother, she's like, I'll never have kids. I'm like, okay, you don't know. She's like, no, I'll never have kids. I'm like, okay, you don't have to. Why are you so fierce? It's okay. She's like, no, I will never.

27:10Okay. There's something there. There's something there. Yeah. Like, how do you know you'll never? Like you're only 30. Like maybe you'll have one. No, I'll never. Like she's so emphatic. And then the one who is 45 and she's not had the kid. She's like, you know, no, I don't regret it. I never think about it. I go, why? Why is it such a big deal? Like it's okay to be messy about it. It's always and never. Yeah, it's always and never. We can be super messy and regret it. It's okay to regret. Like why do we have to be so sure about everything? Like I'm constantly second guessing myself. You know, many times I wanted to have three or four children.

27:48Then I'm like, I'm so glad I didn't have three or four children. And I have one. I'm like, oh, my God, so glad. But the many times I look at her and go, wow, you'd be a different kid if you had siblings. I'm constantly wondering. It's OK. You know, we don't have to be so sure about everything. I think we're afraid of regret. We're afraid to have made a mistake. But life should not be like that. I think we can totally say, my God, the last 10 years of my life have been a colossal mistake. You know, but then this whole philosophy of like, there are no mistakes. And that's true too. There are no mistakes at the end of the day, but it's also okay to have made mistakes.

28:23Like it's both and, right? It's in the way I teach, it's small mind, big mind constantly. There's a world of form where I'm like, oh my God, my nail polish sucks. I need new nail polish now. and it's okay if I have no legs at the end of the day. You know, I'm still alive, right? You can have big mind and small mind, but it's the interplay of both. The form-based world where you care about your mascara and the formless world, which is who cares? Who cares? No one even will ever remember Dr. Shafali. Having both perspective is the way to live in this world. It's tough. It's a tough art. Unless you want to be a monk and give it all up Or unless you want to be an Elon Musk who wants to keep hoarding trillions.

29:09Nicole Lapin:No, I think that balance is really important. Like I said, I went to Hoffman. I've gone to all of these different retreats. And I love living in a self-help world. And it's a bubble. And I just want to live in there forever. And then you have to come to the real world. You can't live in that artificial manufactured utopia. Yeah, but then the real world is also artificial manufactured. There's no escape. The only escape is knowing there's no escape. Pema Chodron wrote a book called The Wisdom of No Escape. Because you're not looking anywhere outside. The only true paradise or escape is here. So everything will bring you back here.

29:48Everything in your life. If you are a human who has empathy, capability, a heart. So there's some who are in the world that have cut off from their heart. So the people ruling our world today are real examples of heartless. They've cut them. They're severed from the heart. There's such a thing.

30:10Nicole Lapin:Is that part of why you wanted to raise conscious sons in this world of the bro culture? Yes, the technocrat, the oligarch. Toxic masculinity. The toxic masculinity. That's exactly why. Because I was so tired of looking at these men going, what the heck is wrong with these men? They have no heart. Like, do you see, you know who I'm talking about? Those who are cut off from empathy, cut off from human connection. They're just not wired for that. Their brain is wired differently and they're taking us that way. But that's not the way of most of us. And that's why we need to rebel and fight back. And my book, Raising Conscious Sons, is like, let's raise our sons differently now because we cannot afford to let our sons go into that, into that manosphere, into that kind of thinking where everyone is objectified.

31:00Nicole Lapin:Yeah, I mean, it scares the hell out of me. Like, if you want to get to the heart of any story, you follow the money trail, I believe. And so they're promoting toxic masculinity, but they're also making so much money doing that. And so it's showing this culture, but also that you can make money that way. They are zombifying your sons. Anyone watching, your son is a pawn in the masculine world, the toxic masculine world. They are zombifying young men so that they can control them. You know, I think the way that young boys are talked to about money, too, is like from this power standpoint. And young girls also from this scarcity.

31:40Nicole Lapin:In my fourth book, Miss Independent, we talked a lot about these studies that were done where it starts really, really early in our story about money as young boys or as young girls. I kind of think of it like farts. So young boys think farts are cool. and young girls are told that that's disgusting. And we all grow up with all these digestive problems. I love that. And so I think that when it comes to money, we also have much deep-rooted problems because we were told, oh, that's not. You have to be a good girl. And we don't talk about, good girls don't talk about money like that. Yeah, I think there's tremendous power in teaching our girls, especially about financial literacy and autonomy.

32:22But also we have to be careful that if we come too much from a scarcity mindset that you have to, you have to make it on your own. We're actually in a way teaching her that the world is an unsafe place and you cannot be interdependent, right? That's the sadness of this whole thing is that our desire to acquire money comes from our deep distrust of each other as a community, right? Look at the mansions we all live in and high hedges and we each have our own washing machine. We each have our own car. Actually, all of this tremendous capitalism speaks to a deep paranoia of each other. We've lost interdependence.

33:05That's why we each want our own bank account. Now the husband wants his own. The wife wants her own. The other day I was talking to a woman. She said, you know, in case I get a divorce 10 years from now, I have to start, you know, creating my own pot of wealth. She felt so afraid of her husband. 10 years, she's not going to get a divorce now because she has young kids, but she's in case. She's sleeping with a man who she does not trust and is paranoid about.

33:30Nicole Lapin:I don't know if I've said this on the show, but I actually regret naming that book Miss Independent because I think that there is that interdependence that's really, really important. So being codependent is not great, right? On one side of the spectrum and being completely independent. We do need other people. Right, right. But I like your name. You know why? Because it's still independent. It's at least got the in, you know, and it's not this hyper independence. It's still got, you know, because I think women have also been so controlled by money. Men have controlled women by keeping the purse string.

34:03So we want her to have her hand on the purse string, but we also don't need to teach her to be so afraid to then let it go. She wants to have a family or she needs help, right? We're also teaching women inadvertently that to ask for help is a weakness or to be vulnerable is is to be embarrassed or ashamed. We're teaching her the same masculine message, hyper masculine messages. So we have to be careful. So what's a better message? It's it's hard. You know, we want to teach her that she needs to know she's competent, but she's also capable of creating a community and having a family. And she doesn't need to be afraid of giving up for the other.

34:45You know, it's a tough one for women, you know, and so let's teach her to make her own money, but not get obsessed with it. Let's teach her to want to have a family, but also not to get obsessed with that. Right. Let's let's try to teach her that her worth will come from her own knowing at the end of the day. So she has to decide, you know, maybe she let go of a few millions to have a family. Maybe she'll only have one kid, but she can have a career. She'll have to figure that out in today's confusing and chaotic world.

35:13Nicole Lapin:How do you raise financially responsible, resilient, healthy kids, but also make sure that they're not entitled? And I think this is a big discussion amongst mother friends of mine who have seen their own childhood trauma too, or who didn't come from anything. Like I remember being told only flush the toilet when it's number two to save on water, right? Or close all the lights, turn off all the lights to save on electricity. And now I turn off all the lights. my husband's like what are you doing but for me that feels like i've made it in that way and also i am struggling with the fact that my daughter is a depo baby like i have gotten to a place in my life on my own to a point of success that i'm able to provide for her in a way that i wasn't provided for but how then do i kind of make her struggle because where is that grit where like that got me to where I am?

36:10Nicole Lapin:Where is the balance between giving her enough, giving her what Warren Buffett said, enough so that she can do anything, but not so much that she will do nothing? Yeah, it's very hard. So the way I like to look at it is that because now we've already created this palace, you know, we're living in a palace, we fly in a jet, right? I mean, I'm not saying It's a private jet, but it's palatial. All our indulgences now are over the top, excessive. So given that you live like this, right? Now within that, how can you not give her more? How can you allow for some friction, right? You don't want to take away a beautiful home.

36:51You don't want to take away these beautiful things. So you've earned it. You have a right for it. You want to fly first class? That's great. But how can you within that not keep adding, right? I went to a millionaire's home maybe two years ago. Not only was the house absolutely stunningly gorgeous, a swimming pool, jacuzzi, a hot tub, a boat in the background, a penthouse, a view, right? You got, it's already over the top. So I went to the kid's toy room, okay? I mean, the toy room had levels and layers and ladders. And so that is ridiculous, right? So you can live in excess, but they don't need excess.

37:35They need what they need. So a four-year-old needs very little. A seven-year-old needs just a little more. So how can you restrain them according to their development? And if you're so out of touch, go to a regular four-year-old's house and see what they have to get perspective. Because I think millionaires lose perspective of what is necessary. Yeah. So how do you structure it so they stay motivated? Well, you have to give them only what's necessary.

38:02Nicole Lapin:So do you believe that if you want to fly first class, your kids should fly first class or should they go and coach? I think you've you've messed that one up. So let it go. Like, how is your kid going to go back there with a nanny? So you're going to go all the way back there with, you know, to look at them. It's so that's what I mean. If the structure is five class, you know, five star and high class, go with that. But within the structure, don't add more. So in the first class seat, if the kid says, oh, we're going to Spain. I want to, sorry, I don't want to go to Spain. I want to go to Turkey.

38:34No, we're going to Spain, right? Keep it as limited now within the crazy structure. Don't add more. So say you're giving your five-year-old a fantastic party with a bouncy house and you're doing a beautiful party, but then they say they want to have a visit by Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, right? Then you have to think to yourself, now do they need that? At what point do I draw a line? But if the parent is coming from acute scarcity, they will not draw a line. Listen to this. If they're coming from scarcity, they will not draw a line. You understand? If they feel like it's not good enough or nothing I do is good enough or I want my daughter to have what I never had, they're coming from scarcity.

39:20The more from scarcity you come, the more you will give your child. in a weird way. See, you're giving all, you've created all this because of your scarcity. You didn't need all of it. You didn't need extra. You did it because of your scarcity. So the more scarce you are, the more you're going to give your kid. And the more whole you are, the less you're going to give your kid. So I remember I gave my kid once a Domino's plastic cup for her birthday, right? Because she actually loved it, but she was never allowed to have it because we never went to Domino's. So she would always, I'd love to go to Domino's.

39:55Oh, Domino's pizza. So I got a Domino's pizza and the cup and I gave her the empty cup to keep. And she loved it. Now today, when I tell her that, she goes, that was so cruel of you, mom. That was so mean of you. I said, no, for that age, that was enough. But because I felt whole inside myself, I didn't feel the need to give her a bracelet. I didn't feel the need to give her Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. See, paradoxically, the more whole we are, the more okay we are with our kids sitting, doing nothing. The more empty we are, the more we want to make them an Olympian. We want to make them Mozart.

40:31We want to make them a ballet dancer. It comes from our lack inside. If we're okay sitting in tattered shorts, we're okay. See, our hunger for things, our hunger for status, our hunger for a lot of money comes from an emotional hunger, not a physical hunger. So the difference between emotional hunger and physical hunger, we have to constantly examine that inside ourselves.

40:57Nicole Lapin:I saw this beautiful video that you did with your daughter about how she teaches you and you teach her. But what's the lesson around money and your relationship with it that you've seen from her? Well, from all children, if you really look at young children, especially, they don't need anything but you, food, shelter, clothing. Like that's it. They're happy playing with the dishes. They don't need the electronic gadget. They don't need you to buy a baby grand piano. In fact, do not ever make a stupid mistake like that until they're for sure a musician, right? It's our lack that makes us buy all these baubles and gadgets.

41:38I promise you, children are okay with sticks and stones. You were okay with sticks and stones. Oh, yeah.

41:44Nicole Lapin:I mean, she loves all the packaging of the box and not the thing inside the box. So can we keep it simple? How simple can we keep it? And we have to discipline ourselves. That's the discipline. Like, even though you can, does that mean you do? You know, even though you can buy all that, does it mean you do it? And at every stage, my daughter's 23, every stage, even though I can buy her the world, I'm asking, do I need to? Does she need to? The difference between need and want, you know, keep that in line. And what about the conversations that you have with others or your significant other, your partner, your husband around money in front of the kids?

42:27Nicole Lapin:How should you be mindful of that? Well, I think if you and your husband or your partner are in conflict, you try to keep it out and go to therapy because money can tear a couple apart. Money can tear a couple apart. And you want to have some agreements around money. I mean, I've seen families fall apart because of money. They steal from each other. They hide from each other. They lie to each other. I mean, money is like a lover. It's like an extra lover. Like, it's a big deal. They'll cheat with you with money. Financial infidelity is a real thing. So you want to create safety. You want to honestly talk about our money belief systems and put that on the table ideally before you partner with someone.

43:14So can we rank some ways of parenting?

43:16Nicole Lapin:One through ten? Yes. Okay. Fafo parenting. Okay. So is ten the worst? Ten is the best. Oh, ten is the best. So zero. Not Fafo parenting? You would fuck around and find out. I love Fafo parenting. You do? I think, I'll tell you, it's the way you say it. So how do you say it? So the way I interpret it. No, say it. Say it. Like, do you say? How do you say it? Fafo? Yeah, no. Fuck around and find out. Okay, so you say it like that, like fuck around and find out? Or do you say fuck around and find out? Like it depends how you say it, okay? Not in spite. I'm thinking people are saying it in spite. But it's like, okay, she's crying and she's screaming.

43:55Nicole Lapin:She doesn't want to put the jacket on. It's really cold outside. Like, am I going to force her to put the jacket on? No, she's going to find out that it's really cold outside. Yeah, but you know you're not going to do it. You're talking so big. You're not going to do any Fafo parenting. You're just a total mush ball. What is she talking about? I do call her mush. No, but one time, Dr. Shafali, I don't know if you're going to. You're going to carry the coat with you. Are you going to tell me I'm the worst parent? Because I can't wait to hear what you say. Okay. She bit me. Yeah. And I bit her back.

44:29You did?

44:30Nicole Lapin:But in deepness. In just. Yes. But I was like, you're doing this. Here's how this feels to you. But here's the missing piece, okay, in the FAFO. Am I the worst mother? No, you're not the worst mother. I remember my four-year-old told me, I hate you. And I was like, I hate you too. I said that too. So that to me is like FAFO, no? But it was not good. I'll tell you why it wasn't ideal, okay? Here's the thing in FAFO parenting. The kids really don't know what they're saying. They don't know. They're aping us and they're so clueless. So your kid who's crying, I don't want to wear the coat. She doesn't know.

45:06And I know you think you're teaching her, but you're just teaching her like my mommy can be mean and she should have carried a coat. She should have known that I wouldn't know. She would, they till 10 or 12, they, they, they're clueless. They don't know. So you help them. You help them. Okay. I don't like faithful parenting, but I think, I think it's, it's, you know, they, they need help. They need skills. You can teach them, like, I'm not going to carry the jacket or I'm, you know, and I don't want you to complain when they're seven or eight, but not when they're two or three. So when they're two or three, you can say, I'm going to leave it in the car and then we're going to have to walk back to the car.

45:44Like something intermediate, right? You can't just leave them cold and have them shiver and go, well, I find out now. Like that. I think kids genuinely don't have too much of a brain. So, and you think it's going to teach them, but the hole in their brain is still a hole in their brain. Like they don't have a prefrontal cortex developed. So this is not developing the prefrontal cortex. Time and age develops the prefrontal cortex, right? So you're thinking it's an act of defiance and this will teach you. The prefrontal cortex will still have holes. So this is not teaching you, this is just making me feel cold and think you're mean.

46:26You know?

46:27Nicole Lapin:They don't remember anything until four anyway, right? No, don't worry about it. Okay, so we're good. She doesn't remember you bit her. Now this podcast will remind her. Okay, gentle parenting. Gentle parenting is a strategy, not a big deal. One to ten. It's five or six. It doesn't mean anything. So if you scream at your kid one day, it doesn't mean now you're not a gentle parent. It's just a nice reminder to be kind. No harm in it. But I don't think you need to crucify yourself if you're unkind. But didn't we raise a bunch of snowflakes after that? That's why I think we went too far. You know, like we have to do everything gently and speak gently.

47:06I prefer, of course, conscious parenting, which is not about how you say it, but your whole internal frame. That's what matters. So I can say, oh, it's so good to share. Who cares? Like, what sense does that make? Because I said it nicely. But inside, if I'm truly not a sharer and I'm truly a hoarder, it doesn't matter how nicely I say something, right? It's about who I fundamentally am. So conscious parenting is about who we are, not what we say necessarily.

47:36Nicole Lapin:Okay. Giving an allowance for chores. Giving an allowance for chores. I think that's great. Yeah. So what? Eight, nine? It's fine. Yeah. Let them earn their allowance. I like that. But shouldn't you, everybody in the house? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do that too. and you can give. I mean, they both are okay, like not a big deal. I do believe that kids should participate and contribute basic stuff. But then when we make a long list of chores, you can teach them that that can earn them extra credit, right? They can earn something. But making the bed shouldn't get money. Cleaning up after yourself in the bathroom shouldn't get money.

48:14But mowing my lawn, that could get money, right? But your things that you do to take care of yourself should be part of your participation and contribution in the house. But cleaning the bathroom, taking care of the younger siblings, that's not your necessary responsibility. I will teach you to do it as a job for me.

48:35Nicole Lapin:Yeah, I don't get paid for making my bed. Yeah, you don't get paid for doing the dishes. Okay, conscious parenting. 10 out of 10. I've never seen it not work because it's not a strategy. It's a life philosophy. It's a revolution. It's about the parental transformation. So how can it ever be wrong? It's always asking the parent, what crap are you bringing to the moment? What stuff are you bringing to the moment? So how can it ever be wrong? We end all of our episodes, Dr. Shefali, by asking all of our guests for a final tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. In terms of money, what do you think is the greatest act of love you can give a child?

49:14That money doesn't define you. Money doesn't make you worthier. Money doesn't come to the special or the unspecial or the good or the bad. Money is a currency. It's an instrument. It's a vehicle. Use it as a means to be emotionally free. Don't allow it to enslave you. It's a tool. Yeah. It's a mindset, you know.