"I Keep Hearing ‘No’—How Do I Pivot Careers Without Giving Up? Coach Me!" with Claire Wasserman

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3:15Hi, I'm Claire Wasserman, the founder and author of Ladies Get Paid, a coaching practice newsletter and podcast dedicated to helping women embrace their worth inside and out. I'm so honored to be guest hosting for Nicole while she's out on maternity leave. Although a bit of a heads up that my hosting, it's slightly different because instead of interviewing my guests, I'm actually coaching them. They'll be calling in cameras off just to protect their identity so that they feel as comfortable as possible to share. That's because I believe that transparency is transformative. And when you can see yourself in someone else's journey, you realize that you're just a little less alone.

3:56So today's guest is Katie, who wants to pivot from being a nurse to going into the tech healthcare field. But she's feeling really demoralized because even though she's getting past a couple of rounds of interviews, they keep telling her that they're going with candidates that have, quote, more traditional experience. I know how that feels. So I give her tips on how to tell her story in a more compelling way, that her skills really are transferable, and that the learning curve will be minimal. I also talked to her about how she can kind of broaden the field of where she's applying to, how to be more creative and more strategic in doing research on what companies are out there.

4:36This is really good for somebody who maybe is considering a career pivot or someone who's in the throes of the job search and is just getting demoralized. Don't worry. I got you. Hey, Katie, thanks so much for joining us today on the podcast. If you can give me some more context to what you're going through and how I can best support you, let's get started. Of course. So my name is Katie and I'm a nurse and I've been working as a nurse manager for the past nine years or so. And I've mostly worked in healthcare, obviously, because it's the most easy profession and field to get into with a background as a nurse, but I'd really love to move into more of a tech role in like healthcare tech companies.

5:21I feel like there's such a boom right now with people really trying to creatively solve problems in wonderful ways with telehealth or with new and unique offerings. And I'd really love to move into more like project or product management with tech roles or in the tech field. And I'm just not totally sure how to do that. So for some additional background, I have interviewed with a couple of companies in the city that I live in and I make it to the hiring manager round and I hear them saying in the interviews, like, oh, I can see that your experience leading a team is relevant to this, but you don't have experience using this technology or you don't have experience actually leading a product team, but you have experience with this kind of team or you have a different experience with project management, but no formal title.

6:16And I guess I would love some, some guidance on the right way forward. Cause I have a master's, I have the experience on my resume that I have and like how to present that in the best light so that people are willing to take a chance on me since I'm a more untraditional candidate frequently applying to these jobs. I wanted to have you on the show because I think a lot of people out there are itching to pivot, but have a lot of questions about, am I going to have to take a pay cut? And also, can I even get the job in the first place? So how do I demonstrate in a compelling way that my skills really are transferable, even if I haven't had the traditional experience or title?

6:55And yeah, it can be a little complicated. So I'm going to do my best to unravel and give you action steps. So the first thing is congratulations on the bravery required to do something different. So I hope that you're feeling proud and can maintain some of that pride as you go through this process. I know it's demoralizing to be rejected, but as long as you are learning, building, growing, doing, feeling, trying, and breaking it down into actionable, reasonable steps for yourself to hold on to that as best as you can throughout this process. Sustaining your energy is everything in this. Okay. So we've got that.

7:36The people who are going to hire you are the ones that you've convinced effectively two things. Number one, that your learning curve will be minimal because nobody wants to take a chance on somebody they can hire an easy fit, right? So we've got to show them that the learning curve is minimal. And I'm going to walk you figure out how to do that in just a minute. The second thing that we want to demonstrate to them is that you being a non-traditional candidate is actually an asset. So instead of it being a thing that we hide, I want to figure out after we've established that the learning curve is minimal, that you bring something extra by being an outsider.

8:15Before I dive into all that, am I on the same page with you where you want to focus today? Yes, that sounds wonderful. Okay, great. So you mentioned a few things already in feedback that you've received, and I'm glad that you've gotten not just rejected in the first round. The reason I'm glad that you've gotten a few rounds in is because you've now established relationships with these hiring managers and whoever else you've met. We have no idea where they're going to go next, and also if another position may open up later down the road. So for you and anyone watching and listening who is in a process of, yes, I've had a few rounds of interviews, but I'm not landing the job.

8:52Don't feel like it's all a waste. Okay. It's broadening your network. And listen, I've never gotten a job through a cold application. It's always come through my network and through my relationships. So you are doing that and you're doing it successfully. But how do we take that next leap past the, ooh, okay, you sort of have comparable, but not totally right experience. Let's break it down into as many different areas in which we can nail either the gap you have or the story we're going to tell around the gap. We've got skills. We've got experience. We've got network. What else could we be missing?

9:32Just throw out as many as you can. And by the way, it doesn't have to be what you're missing. It's just the things that they're looking for that they don't want to have to train you on. I mean, it's basically credibility, right? So again, we've got skills, we've got experience, We've got your network, right? Relationships are important. Schooling, maybe. I mean, is there anything else you can think of? I'm not sure. I think that a lot of times people who work in like health tech companies, even though they're further away from the actual healthcare delivery, really like to hear your why. And so I've been applying at a couple of places that are more oncology or cancer care focused.

10:08And I feel like I have a really strong why there as well. My dad passed away from a short battle with cancer four years ago. And that has been really motivating to me to work somewhere really innovative. And that's working to do cutting edge work with caring for people with cancer. And I feel like that's a really strong argument. I'm not just a nurse who is looking for a change. I've got a good story, but that's not always applicable. So that's not always deployed. Okay. Well, we're going to obviously put that front and center. I'm so sorry to hear that that is your story, but I'm also so happy that you can leverage it for growth.

10:45Yay. Seriously. Yes. My dad would be happy. Okay. So here's the best way I think you can work backwards from anything that you might potentially be, quote, missing. And tell me if you've done any of this. Have you spoken to people who have the jobs that you want or people who are doing similar things? And by speaking to them, I don't just mean, oh, what do you like about your job? What I want you to do when you talk to these people is ask them what is difficult about their job. What skills have they felt that they've really needed to learn and leverage to not only solve the challenges of their job, but to be excellent?

11:22I want you to dig into the details of that because you'll then work backwards from those details and speak to them, literally specifically speak to them in your cover letter, in your interview, in whatever kind of exchange you're having. you will acknowledge the fact that yes, you are making a pivot. However, you have spoken to, let's just say five or eight or 10 people who've been in the trenches for some time in doing this work and told you that the three biggest skills that they've used or whatever it is, you know, it's making sure that the person who's hearing you understands that this isn't just about aspirations.

12:07It's about the obstacles in the way of the aspiration. So what is difficult about this job? And chances are what was difficult was probably not, I don't know, learning how to use a platform or a piece of software. It was probably the soft skills, right? It's probably going to be things that when you hear them, you go, oh, I totally have a story for that. I have a great example of how I've done that. Tell me though, is this resonating? Have you tried it? and what do you feel? Yes, I have spoken with a couple of different project and product managers. I actually am married to a product manager, but he is much more tech focused.

12:42So that I've been learning about what he's been doing for the past 10 years, but it's a lot different than the work I would want to be doing. And I've talked with a product manager that works for a health insurance company and done a lot of talking with her very recently about what leads people to be successful in that role. And something that she said that I really felt hopeful about was someone who's a clear communicator and able to drive meetings forward is a key skill that they need that her current team lacks. And that is something I feel like I have in spades. I am always the person in the meeting going, okay, we've talked about all these things, but what are we doing next?

13:23Okay, we're meeting again in two weeks. Who is going to have what piece of this puzzle done by then? what's getting in our way of getting these things moving forward. So that's been really great. And then I've also spoken with a long-term project manager in a large manufacturing type company, and she had wonderful things to say about not necessarily needing a certification to be qualified for the position and really using how to think and how to solve problems to your advantage of looking for dependencies, looking for things that are unforeseen problems that a member of your team might miss that you need to make sure get addressed so that the project can move forward.

14:04And I've been trying to think of more and more examples in my current work of how to illustrate that when asked in interview questions, what kind of things I can relate for my previous jobs to these new project manager roles. Okay. So if I asked you based on these new positions that you're applying for, do you feel confident that you could tell me the three biggest challenges that this role has to solve? I think I have more work to do with my network, hearing more from people specifically in these health tech companies. I think I need to get closer to what they are dealing with on a day-to-day basis to be able to speak to that.

14:45Really do intense research because they'll also be impressed that you did the research. So, you know, let alone the story that you tell, the fact that you went and talked to all of these people, that you're self-aware enough to recognize that, yes, there will be a learning curve, but you did your homework. You did your due diligence to minimize how much of a learning curve that is, and that you are explicitly calling out to them saying, hey, listen, taking a chance on me is not going to be as big of a leap as you think it is, because I have spoken to these people. And also, if you're getting feedback about certain things that they feel like you are lacking, how do you speak to that upfront?

15:22So don't make them ask you, right? Because then you're sort of more in a defensive position, but really as part of like your opening case, and I'm a really big believer that when having these kinds of conversations with both employers, but also just people we network with in general, they kind of only remember how we started the conversation and also how we end it. And so it's your opening case and your closing case is reiterating to them very specific points It's usually bucketed, right? So here are the three major challenges in the research that I did, you know, that I'm going to come across in this role.

15:53And here are examples in the ways that I've approached these kinds of challenges in my current position. And by the way, in the stories that you tell, right, like I'm the person in the meeting who always asks about the next steps. I love that. The next thing I would say, though, is, and if this is possible for you, what was the impact? Like what happened next after that? And if you can help the other person visualize that scene as best as possible. So even mentioning things like what was at stake, right? Like when you worked on this project or had this meeting or whatever the experience was, you know, the investment that the company was making in your time and energy that because of the fact that you were focusing on this, why did that matter?

16:37Right. So let's like pump up the drama also in the story that we tell. And none of this is lying, by the way. all of this, you know, it's all true. It's just, can you express it in maybe a more compelling way that honors, you know, the truth of the situation. Okay. So minimizing the learning curve. Now, if they keep saying, all right, well, you haven't had the title, you can say, well, yes, I may have not had that specific title, but, you know, again, based off of everything that we've discussed in the research I've done, these are the areas in which, you know, my skills are transferable. And then you would transition into why being an outsider gives you an advantage, actually.

17:18And not just this bullshit, like, trust me, being an outsider gives you an advantage. No, you have to give an example. So that's something we could maybe even brainstorm here. So an advantage to being an outsider, giving an example of that. So if there's ever been an experience you've had, where, you know, whether you were taking some time off, and you came back, and you had fresh eyes, you really want to help the other person visualize it as best as you can. So not speaking in these like broad abstract terms, but okay, in this experience, you know, we were all trying to figure out this solution and no one could.

17:50And then, you know, whatever it was, I had two days off and then I came back and I had this aha moment, or I don't know, Katie, if there's anything that's coming to mind for you, where you could show me how in hopefully your professional experience, that outside perspective has been helpful for you. In my current position that I am currently working in, I was hired as someone who had all of the administrative soft leadership skills that they needed, but was lacking specific experience in my current specialty in healthcare. So I had all of the other background was really solid, but I was really new to my current specialty, the physiology, the anatomy, the expectations of care.

18:34That was very new. And I feel like my newness to it really helped ask some clarifying questions so that we could really better create a great client experience. So the clients coming into our care, they are also not experts in that specialty. They have new diagnoses. They're encountering this kind of care provider for the very first time. How do we make sure that they, too, understand what's expected of them? How do we make sure that they understand what to expect of their providers? And I feel like I helped add a lot of clarity and not just have us work in this echo chamber of everyone who is an expert in the specialty.

19:14I think that's great.

19:20Hold onto your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. And now for some more Money Rehab.

19:33reassuring them that the learning curve will be more minimal with you than they might imagine is demonstrating an example from the past in which you were new, right? So what you just shared with me, even though it was more of an example for why does an outsider perspective give you an advantage, I like that it also kind of does double duty of I was new, right? So that's also something to have in your back pocket prepared. Maybe even mention like really freaking hard things that I'm sure you had to do, right? That's going to now put into pretty nice perspective. I'm sure the things you would be doing for a tech company are not as difficult to learn as the things you would learn for nursing.

20:09Are we talking about life or death circumstances here? By the way, my son is medically complex and has had multiple open heart surgeries. So I am like, I'm all about the nurses and the doctors, mostly the nurses. And that makes me feel like, well, I just send newsletters for a living. Like, you know, so you can sort of make a joke about it. Like, hey, you know, I had to learn these things and, you know, I love learning. I'm all about learning. And I'm sort of looking forward to not having to learn when there's a life or death situation. Or, you know, you can kind of point out the absurdity. Have you ever managed somebody before?

20:39You're like, well, I've kept people alive, you know? So if maybe there's a way to weave in some humor, again, the self-awareness is so critical. And it sounds like you really do have that already within you. It's just being able to connect the dots explicitly for them about why, again, minimal learning curve and benefit to being an outsider. The third thing here is your why. Now, you can tell a beautiful story about it, and that's fine, but we want to now take it to the next level, which is, it's going to sound funny the way I say this, but why does your why matter? Like, why does that matter to them?

21:17Why does it matter for your work? Is that something that you do when you talk about your reasons for wanting to go into this field? Do you then connect the dots to how it affects the work you do? And of course, that is the impact on the business bottom line, ultimately. I think so. I feel like I could speak to the fact that when working in the hospital or outpatient or on the supposed front lines of patient care, there's typically a 8 to 15 year practice gap. that we're all working under where the best practices or new research comes out and it takes the average outpatient center or hospital eight to 15 years to be implementing that new cutting edge care.

22:05And for whatever reason, there are a lot of obstacles in the way of that. And I really want to be working on the cutting edge of the care. I want to be on the front end of finding out the best solutions and finding a faster way to get that information to providers, to get those practices to touch patients even faster. Because with how much our population is aging, how much we're all changing, we don't have that time to waste. And our healthcare system can't afford for providers to be practicing with 8 to 15-year-old information when they could be making amazing advances in their patient's care today, if they had access to the right information and the right protocols for care?

22:55Yes, but why you? Okay. I was like, I got stuck. Yeah. Like all of that was great. I'm like, that all makes sense, but it's not connected to you. And you're trying to make the point that you are the higher, you're the special higher, not that there is a need for this thing to be done and that you believe in the need. You've seen the need, but why does it make it a benefit to them that you know this? You don't need to answer that question, but I really want to push you and everybody watching and listening because I've worked with thousands and thousands of job seekers. Oftentimes I hear the first part of the answer, okay, where I go, yes, that is correct.

23:31And, right, we've got to now show them how you do that in your way and how that's an impact on their bottom line or how that's, you know, going to help them. Before, though, we dig too deep down that road. I want to talk about the jobs that you are applying to. I have suggestions for where I think maybe you should be looking that are going to say yes to you much quicker than other people. Not specific company names, I'm sorry to say, but kind of categories of companies. And by the way, anyone listening or watching, this is relevant to you too, no matter what industry or role that you have or want to be in.

24:08Before I talk about that, though, maybe you tell me, how did you decide which jobs to look at or which companies to be researching? It really has been depending on the job listing and the job description posted, because I feel like product and project manager can be so many different things at so many different companies. And I don't want ones, I clearly am not qualified for ones that need Python or SQL or like knowing programming languages. I'm clearly not going to be the right fit for that. So I'm not going to waste my time, but I'm looking for ones that are specifically like have healthcare experience or tech experience or management experience, or ones that are looking for people manager experience and tech experience or healthcare experience.

24:54Ones that have from the get-go broader requirements that I could fit into, but I might not be their typical candidate, but it's been tough because every title can mean so many different things at different companies. So I'd love additional suggestions. So my suggestion it's a little bit radical. I would not be looking at open job postings. Okay. I mean, fair enough. Have a Google alert up, you know, compile it into a spreadsheet, but chances are it's too late because a lot of these jobs, when they're listed, they're already in motion, filling the role, whether internally or through relationships.