Kat Von D on Good Business and Bad Contracts

0:00I recently went on a quick beach trip with my husband for a little couples time and it was perfect. We sat in the sun, swam in the ocean, and generally just tried to get to that place of deep relaxation where your shoulders actually drop a few inches. Do you know what else can give you that feeling? Co-hosting with Airbnb. Trust me on this one. Hosting your home on Airbnb while you're away from home is a great way to make some extra cash and make sure your home is working as hard as you do. But knowing where to start can feel overwhelming. That's where co-hosts come in. These are local experts who can help make hosting even easier by taking care of all the little details back home while you're off enjoying yourself.

0:40Co-hosts can handle everything from staging your space to communicating with guests to offering on-site support so nothing interferes with your time away from home. Whether you're living the digital nomad life or just taking a well-deserved reset, I love this for you. Looking to get started? Find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. I once interviewed the CEO of a credit bureau, and he confessed that his assistant has a better credit score than he does. Why? Because she's more organized. Yep, even the head of the credit bureau can use a little help in the credit score department. If you can, too, then listen up, because Chime has a card that can help you do just that.

1:19Chime turns everyday spending into real rewards and progress. Not like old school banks that charge you overdraft and monthly fees. Built for you, not the 1%. Imagine cash back and credit building with your own money, finally on the same card. No annual fees, no interest, and no strings attached. And when you get qualifying direct deposits, you get 1.5 % cash back on eligible Chime card purchases. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to Chime.com slash MNN.

1:54That is Chime.com slash MNN.

2:16Your financial journey shouldn't be a solo mission. Am I right? I am. You need a banking partner who's genuinely invested in your success story. U.S. Bank gets it. They don't just show up for your account opening and then ghost you. If you're saving for that engagement ring, they're cheering you on. If you're buying your first home, they're right there with you. If you're planning for retirement, they're still your biggest supporter. It's about having a financial teammate who believes in your potential and backs it up with real tools and real people who actually care. See what genuine partnership looks like at usbank.com because together we're unstoppable.

2:53That's the power of us. Equal housing lender. Member FDIC. Trademark 2025 U.S. Bank. I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab.

3:14If your dream job lands in front of you, you'd take it, right? You might even take it no questions asked without reading the fine print. That's exactly what happened to Kat Von D, tattoo artist and entrepreneur. Kat recently sat down with Nelly Galan on her M &N podcast Moneymaker, Mi Mundo Rico, to talk about the dreamy contract she signed that turned into a complete and utter nightmare and how she got out of it. If you know Kat from Miami Inc. and LA Inc., you are in for a surprise because she is so much more than what you saw on TV. And for anyone interested in turning their hobby into a jobby, Kat is the master and has lessons for days.

3:55Welcome to Moneymaker, the podcast that gives you the tools to enrich your life in every sense of the word. I'm your host, Nelly Gallant. Let's get started. So Kat Mundy, I'm so, I can't even believe I'm here with you. you have i mean you're latina i'm latina so you can imagine that latinos follow other latinos and i've just loved everything you've done now you're a singer yeah you're a goat tattoo you're the goat in tattoo and you also have had my favorite makeup line i'm obsessed and you've just done so many businesses so i'm just so happy to have you here oh thank you what comes up for me with you because we're both latinas and you're very american yeah is you know that saying follow your bliss and the money will come.

4:39Yeah. Which is very Joseph Campbell. And I think that as Latinas, we also know that that's a little bit entitled and true, but not true because, you know, you follow your bliss. There are many blisses of your life. Some make money and some don't. Yeah. Yeah. You have followed all your blisses and, and also you've done parallel lives where you made money in different ways. So super excited to get the whole scoop from you. So, you know, you were born in Mexico, which I don't know if a lot of people know that about you. I don't think a lot of people know that I'm Latina. That you're Latina, man. You're so Latina.

5:10And your parents were like Argentinos and then they moved to Mexico and then you came from Mexico here. Yeah. I have to ask you because I left school when I was 15 and you left school very young. You're like my parallel life sister. Yes, parallel life. And so my parents lost it. Yeah. And so I know that the Latino parents must have freaking lost it. Yeah. So can you tell us what happened? Yeah. So I was born in Mexico. I was born in a little pueblito que se llama Montemorelos. Yes, of course. It's right next to Monterrey. So, you know, it's like. Norteña. Yeah. From the northern part of Mexico.

5:42Yeah. But my family is from Argentina. So we're all kind of mixed up. But my parents were missionaries for the church. So my dad was building hospitals in these little towns where there was no access to hospitals. Just, you know, doing amazing work. And I'm so grateful for that because to me, like my heart is in Mexico. That's like my motherland. So, and I love Argentina too. I'm not, you know, dismissing that side either. But, you know, the way that I speak Spanish is a lot more Mexican. I mean, it's mixed, but you know, so many people don't, they think Latinos are all the same. Yeah. And we all have different accents.

6:12It's like America where you have a Southern accent and whatever. And so it is a little different. Yeah. And then we moved to America in the eighties. I was like, you know, five or six. And then we moved to a little town called Loma Linda, which is two hours, you know, east of LA. And, you know, my parents, they weren't Americanized at all, you know, and I, which I love, you know and my siblings and we we led a pretty humble like modest life went to church you know on the sabbath we were sent the evidence so when i when i started you know falling into the tattoo world i don't think people realize latinos are not into tattoos no i'm now it's a lot more but back then i mean no it's like it's like almost like the only the only two people that get tattoos are like bandilleros or prostitutes yeah it's prostitutes or these gang members right So they really see it as, and by the way, I got into the entertainment business, which to them is, you know, in Latin America, if you're in the entertainment, it's prostitution.

7:11So Latinos don't get it. Yeah, yeah. So I can't imagine your parents during this period. What happened is I got into punk rock music. And so I think that to me spoke on a very like profound level, like just this feeling of being an outsider. And I've always felt that. I felt that within my own family unit. I never really felt like I fit into a lot of places. And, and I don't know if part of that is that like, I am mixed. So it's kind of like, I don't fit in here. I don't fit in there. Like where do I belong? And then this kind of revolutionary music to me was like embraced all of that. And I love that.

7:43It wasn't anything having to do with rebelling. It was more about embracing that like we're outsiders and it's okay. And so I shaved my head into a Mohawk and I think my parents just, that was worse than the tattoos, you know? And because for them, it's like, how are we going to explain it to the church? You know? And I get it. It was very in your face. And at that time there wasn't, you know, people weren't dying their hair. Like this was not considered acceptable. I gave them probably a lot of white hairs, but you know, now they've seen, you know, what I've done with my life and they're very proud of me, but you know, I've apologized for the hell that I put them through and stuff, but that's part of having kids.

8:19Yeah. Well, when you have kids, you realize it, but I think you're talking about something also very important that when you come from another place and you come into this country and then you're a little bit of americana yeah whatever that version of americana is you do feel like weird yeah but in a weird way it's a building block toward a business because sure you also know you understand differences in people and you understand desires in people yeah and you can code switch yeah totally between a latino culture and a this and the punk culture yeah yeah so i look at that in your trajectory yeah yeah no i love that switching yeah i love that yeah that is true.

8:56I mean, I've always, you know, when it comes to building a brand or any kind of project that I, you know, pour myself into, I really come at it from the perspective of being a fan. I know that things can become corporate and they can become big and mainstream, but at the end of the day, I'm a fan of music. I'm the person that will stand in line and buy a ticket. You know, I will buy the artwork. And so if I don't want it, why would I make it? You know, and even though what I like might not be what everybody likes, I know that I'm not alone. There's other people that are outsiders that can relate.

9:25So how did you go from loving punk and loving tattoos for yourself to turning tattoos into a business for you? So I was 14 when I did my first tattoo and I know I did it. I'm cringing for your parents already. Well, it's crazy because I have a son now and he's four and I can't imagine him doing half of the things that I was doing, you know, just like, like living on my own at such an early age and running away and moving across the country on a Greyhound bus and smoking cigarettes. You and our twins. Yeah. I just grew up too fast. So, you know, again, I don't think I would necessarily change a lot of things about, you know, my path, but it's interesting.

10:03I'm like, man, at 14, I already knew what I wanted to do. And basically my neighborhood punk rock friend had this like homemade tattoo machine. He said, Hey, you know, I was, I was painting on, on like punk rock jackets at the time. And he's like, you're really good. You know, you draw really well. So you're really an artist. Yeah. I mean, I've always been drawing since I was a kid. My mom said since I could hold a pencil. So he said, Hey, you should tattoo me. And I said, okay. And I didn't know anything about the tattoo industry. I didn't have a point of reference. And I think that that was kind of a good thing.

10:31Most people go through traditional apprenticeship where somebody that's more experienced shows them how to tattoo. And for me, I had no idea what was bad or what was good. I was just doing it. It's kind of liberating in that sense, but I tracked down the first tattoo I ever did. And I, to photograph it when I came out with my first book and oh my god it was like the art was there the heart was there but the the skill and technique the equipment was not there you know so poor person that got that yeah but it also too i mean you know he's that now he has a cat monday tattoo the original yeah so yeah so then i got into my first tattoo shop when i was 16 and that's kind of when i had unlearned a lot of ghetto habits that i picked up along the way and it was you know kind of refreshing to be around like bikers who it wasn't about a business.

11:16It was like, we lived for this art. It's like, yes, it's a profession. Yes. It's a job. It means to the end, but that's not why we do it. You know, we don't do it because we have to do it because we, we, we need to, you know, it's like in you. And I think that's like such an exciting thing. And I don't like to use the word blessing because it's like so contrived sometime, but I really feel blessed that I got to know at an early age what I wanted to do. So then I went to school. I was going to, I went to junior high and then I went to my first two weeks of high school, my freshman year. And then I already knew I wanted to do this for the rest of my life.

11:49So I just dropped out much to my parents' dismay and then dedicated myself to tattooing. And so in that period that you dedicate yourself, because there's one thing of, you know, loving something and then mastering it. So how long did it take you to really feel like grounded in that mastery? A little bit less than 10 years. See? Yeah. I've been hearing that a lot from people. I mean, for me, I didn't make money for 10 years and then it all, I made money. I remember the point where I was like, oh, um, this is becoming second nature. Right. In the beginning I would do tattoos and I'm like, I'm doing a good job, but I could do better and you can always do better.

12:27But there's a point where you're like, okay, I'm doing a portrait tattoo and it really resembles the original or, you know, and it's, it's, I feel satisfied. I feel comfortable in your skin doing it. Like I don't feel afraid in any way. And so I think that took a little longer, but along the way I was making money. I was providing for my family. I was taking on a lot of responsibilities that teenagers shouldn't have to, you know, just growing up way too fast. So you're, you're learning all this. And then how does the first TV show come up? Yeah. So the TV show was interesting. At that point I was already doing portraits and I was already booked out for almost like two years in advance.

12:59It was just, uh, I was really doing great. People in the tattoo world become obsessed with a specific artist. Well, yeah. Um, I mean, I wouldn't call it obsessed. I think that there's an artist for everybody. You know, I have weaknesses. There's things that I don't do because I'm not good at them. And you should go to those people who mastered that, you know, genre of tattooing. But yeah, a lot of people become very loyal to their artists or to a certain style, you know, like I personally always loved black and realism. So that's kind of what I gravitated towards. So I was tattooing, I was in my twenties at that point and I was tattooing at a shop in Hollywood.

13:31You know, I was drinking a lot at the time and partying as 20 year olds do. And I was, I think I was in Finland actually, like at a metal concert, there was like a festival and I was tattooing a bunch of metal bands. And I got the call saying that they wanted me to come out to do this tattoo show. And I was like, who's going to watch that? That's so stupid. Like so boring. Cause we just sit there and we just do this. and that's like the world's most boring show. But then there was a part of me that was like, at the time there was not a lot of female tattooers, you know, I could probably name all of them on two hands.

14:02You know, I felt like a certain sense of responsibility because I know how networks are and like, you're, they're going to hire people based on looks versus like what they're capable of doing. There was a little bit of gatekeeping, I guess, in that sense. And so I said, okay, I'm going to give it a try. And I showed up and, you know, I wasn't familiar with the other artists. Like we didn't know each other and I don't think we had a great chemistry at all. So it was not fun. You know, it was like, I didn't connect with the people in Miami because it's, it's very, it's different. It's different.

14:31Like, you know, I really stuck out like a sore thumb, not in a good way, you know? And so I felt, I felt, I felt very isolated and alone, to be honest, I didn't have any friends. And I started just really like diving deeper into my addiction, you know, as a form of coping. And so I started doing a lot of drugs at that time. and at one point I just had enough I just had to get out of it so I got offered my own tv show they want to do a spin-off show in LA LA Inc I agreed to it mainly because it nullified my first contract which I signed completely drunk and it just had a lot of things where I was like signing rights away that you know I should have had a lawyer present I didn't know because I was a young kid and and so I said okay well now I've grown up and I've got a lawyer and I know what I'm gonna do and so I built this shop and shortly after that is when I got sober and that is really when my life turned around and that's like I won't be too preachy about it but it is a big part of my story it's like when I first started tattooing I made an agreement with myself where I said if anything ever gets in the way of my passion that gets cut out during that time I broke up with boyfriends like if they you know they felt I worked too much or whatever it was and then when I realized that like drinking and drugs was getting in the way that's when I was like, I got to break up with drinking and drugs.

15:43And overnight I just stopped. I like cut out all my friends that I drank with and deleted all my drug dealers. Like I stopped going to the places where I used to go. And it was again, this kind of lonely place to be in because I was like figuring out, I didn't have any real friends, you know, even like when I look back at like certain production, when I was filming and I'm like, Oh, they liked me better when I was drunk or when I was wild. Well, because that's good TV, right? That's good ratings. Yeah. And now I like, you know, when people are like, Oh, I watched Ellie and I'm like, like, I get like a little bit cringy because you know, I've grown up a lot.

16:16I'm 40 now. So it's like, I was in my twenties and thirties during that time. So I like myself a lot better now than I was then, but I was really grateful for the opportunity to be on TV because a, I'm not afraid of documenting things. I think documenting things is amazing. I'm like a really crazy obsessive archiver. So So I archive everything. Like I own the first five of everything I've ever made. And we have everything like neatly archived. And I have every line drawing for every tattoo I've ever done. So to me, documenting my life for that decade was amazing. I think that's a really interesting point.

16:52You know, I've spent a lot of time at the Library of Congress. And I noticed the common denominator between successful people is they keep their archives. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting. you know george washington and lincoln kept everything in their life and i think that that's just something interesting to hear from you yeah it's true it's almost like you know yeah that you're gonna need it yeah or i don't know why it's like i think i think at the time i you know i was like i'm never gonna have kids i'm married to my job and all that stuff and i thought like i'm not passing this down to anybody but is this like a legacy is this like my mark you know and to a certain degree and also i get emotionally attached to like you know nostalgia yeah so i like seeing the the growth like i have like the first drawings from when i was a child up until now and it's like wow like i got better and that's like something to be proud of of course but it's interesting because you do a tv show and what no matter what we say let's be honest a tv show is a commercial for your brand yeah of course and it does create a whole other parallel track for you business wise that you could never have scaled to the degree that you scaled it.

17:57So can we talk a little bit about that? I will say that like times have changed since I've been on TV. Like I don't think people watch TV the same way they did as back then. So back then, I mean, we were competing with like shows like Sopranos and then my heart really just kind of broke up with television once it turned into reality because we were like a docu-series at first. It was like more documenting tattoos and the stories behind them. And then it turned into like, okay, now we're competing with Jersey Shore. And there's something for everybody, you know, like there's, I'm not knocking that at all.

18:28I just think like, that's not what I do. And like, I don't have that within me to like make that kind of television. So I saw myself kind of growing out of it at that time. I think like whatever you put out into the world is what you're going to get. So whatever it is that you want to do, put more of that out there, you know? So I don't understand people like on Instagram or on social media now, like putting garbage out or just things that are fleeting because I'm like, that's what you put out. It's what you're going to be demanded of, you know? So like, to me, I like to put out what I like to create.

18:56So I love reading. I love writing. So I started writing books and then I learned how to photograph. And then I started, I photographed my second book. And then I was actually approached for my makeup line. That was never something that I was like, I want to have a makeup line, but actually, but when, you know what, when I saw it, I was like, what a cool kind of brand extension in a weird way because look you have great makeup yourself but also you i don't know i thought your makeup line was very tied like the way you even named yeah like tattoo eyeliner and it was just very appropriate yeah it's a form of self-expression and that's what i was selling i wasn't selling like a beauty standard because i'm like you know a beauty standard you know but it to me it's more just but it was vegan so that's something that was weren't you?

19:37Yeah. I mean, I later like formulated things to be vegan, but to me, originally the, like the purpose of my makeup line was just to show like an artistic expression in a world where like beauty is more defined by like personal aesthetics or something like that, you know? And so I think it was fun, like the first five years. And then after the five years, I feel like it got so big that I just lost control of it. And then I saw the mutation of YouTube happen. And that to me was like, I'm just not anything I want to be a part of. Again, I'm not criticizing anybody's approach to stuff because there's a lot of great entrepreneur YouTubers and influencers.

20:16But is that what I want to contribute to? I knew in my heart that's not what I wanted to do anymore. The last half of owning my makeup line, I was quite miserable, to be honest. You know, it's like kind of just, OK, let's see what we could do. You know, like where's the compromise here? You know, and that's OK. I feel like I got out kind of at the perfect time before the piece of the pie was getting very divided. I have to ask you because, you know, when you put your name on something and then you sell it, you know, so many times they own your name. I know that they've taken your name and now they've turned it into something else.

20:50We basically agreed that like I would take my name back. And at the time I thought, oh, well, it's just my initials. It'll be fine. And now I regret it, you know, because I feel like people still think I own it. and I hate it. Like I have nothing to do with it. Like, I don't know who they're hiring. I don't look at, like, I don't follow them. I don't know what products they're making. And it is hard because people think like, oh, you know, Kat made that. And it's like, I have no idea what the creative direction is. Like, you know, I kind of wish they would change their name. Yeah. So it is. So that's a cautionary tale.

21:22Yeah. Totally. If I could go back in time, that's one thing I would change. I'd be like, just change it to like something else, you know? Right. But it's hard because they're buying a brand, right? Yeah, yeah. So a lot of business information here because you do a show. Yeah. The show is a commercial for a brand that sometimes you can brand extend, but people then come to you. Yeah. And how many people do licenses and do all kinds of stuff? You do them and it sounds great, but they don't always work out. Yeah. And then you have to figure out, you know, did I put my name? Should I have called it something else?

21:52And maybe when we're the first time you do it, you don't think of that. Sure. That it may be a divorce. Yeah. And then somebody else has your name. Right. So like when I did Miami Inc., for example, they owned the rights to my name, my likeness, all my artwork. I mean, that was what I was fighting for because I was like, oh, this is I can't even believe that that's legal. Like, you know, how can somebody own while you're alive your name and likeness, you know? So like meaning that I couldn't do anything with my name without their permission. That's terrible. So then when I did LA Inc., at that point, I got a good lawyer and he was like, oh no, we got to get rid of this deal.

22:28And this is all very cautionary because when you're the brand you're selling versus you come up with a line of which, you know, you now are doing a lot of other business deals. And we'll talk about that. So when you're selling yourself, then it's very connected to you. And if something goes wrong and it's a divorce in business, they own you. And that's happened to a lot of designers, a lot of people. And then the other part of it is that But like, to me, the maybe the more emotionally important part is that when something fails, nobody knows the Wizard of Oz that's behind that's actually running things.

23:03You have to deal with that. Like if the makeup line were to fail now, people would think it's me and it's not. But at the same time, I think like you pick your battles. Well, you know, entrepreneurs, I mean, you think of yourself, I see as an artist, but you're really an artist and an entrepreneur. and I think the entrepreneur part of you has to make mistakes. I've made a million mistakes. I have failed. I tell everybody I have failed more than I succeeded. You only have to succeed two or three times and that's all people remember. But you have to fail to learn to go to the next level. Totally.

23:36So I also love it because you've talked a lot about your entrepreneurial life and also buying homes and all kinds of stuff. Where did you go after this whole makeup thing? Because I know you're doing your own businesses. The makeup stuff started just consuming my whole life. We were based out of San Francisco. So I was flying out there sometimes twice a week. I mean, it was like, just, I didn't really have a life outside of it. Were you still tattooing at that point? Yeah. I was balancing it whenever I was in town, but I haven't done tattoos for money in like, it's been over a decade now. Like I only tattoo my friends and it's more of a gift that I do.