Neil Patel Risked His Parents’ Life Savings… Then Built a $100M Marketing Empire. Here’s How He Did It

34:01How did they react when you started doing that? Then my daughter was pissed at first. And then she cried and was like, you owe me a whole new ice cream bar, but now they accept it. They pay their taxes. They pay their taxes. Okay. And now I've gotten to a point where I don't really eat it. I'll take the bite and I spit it out in the trash. Or like, you know, I'll take a spoon and take it and throw it in the trash. I'm not trying to be wasteful, but I'm trying to teach them. The concept. do you have your kids do they get allowance and would you have them negotiate when they do uh they don't get allowance they only make they get money for doing stuff chores working and stuff like that and we had around the clock help what i mean around the clock help we had nannies at one point from six or seven a.m all the way to like when they go to bed around 7 p.m so it shifts seven days a week and we had cleaners seven days a week eight hours a day and cooks and all that kind of stuff and drivers got rid of driver uh we only have a nanny that helps us out for a few hours in the morning when they have to get to school because the school is quite a bit far away from where we live uh cleaners are part-time and not every single day still close enough to seven days a week.

35:21I think we're at six days. No cook. And mom and dad drives him to school, picks him up, got rid of a lot of our fancy cars. They mainly drive in a Honda Odyssey. My son hates it. He always tells me, you know, our neighbors have a Bugatti. Why don't we have a Bugatti? And I'm like, they make more money. Daddy needs to work and save up. Right. And then the other thing we do now is they do their own chores. So, hey, you take a shower, you spilled water on the floor because you walk around mop it up you know take your clothes put it in the hamper that kind of stuff you don't get paid for hey dad's vacuuming you know i know we have cleaners but i still try to like pick up little stuff after they eat you want to help dad vacuum and clean the table and stuff and help with dishes like drying they don't wash like you'll make money from it two bucks that's typically what we give them for each task my son right now in his piggy bank we counted last night $517.

36:17Damn! So he's saving up. And if you ask him what he's saving up for, he's like, Bugatti, if I can't afford a Bugatti, a Ferrari. Okay, it's so LA that he's six years old and knows what a Bugatti is. Four, four. He's four and he knows what a Bugatti is. My God. So. How do you feel about that? I don't mind. If he wants a Bugatti, I tell him, good for you, you should have goals, go and earn it. You can have anything you want as long as you earn it? Not you can have anything you want as long as you earn it. We're right now trying to teach the concept of you should, if you want something, go and work hard for it.

36:51My wife at the same time spends all her time on philanthropy. She's trying to teach our kids just because you have the money doesn't mean you should keep it for yourself. So like at Christmas, birthdays, she teaches the concept of giving presents to other people like for Christmas. You don't need all these presents. How many people don't have toys and couldn't celebrate? So my wife will take them to volunteer, wrap presents give them to kids and we're trying to teach them the concept just because you have the money doesn't mean you should have everything you want and people who don't have everything or even the basic necessities shouldn't have it for reasons that they can't control so if you look at the United States a lot of the families that struggle are single parent families and they struggle in many aspects, not just money, but education.

37:42When they grow up, there's a lot, a lot of things that have put them at a disadvantage because they don't have some of the aspects that you get from dual earning income households. Right? So my wife looks at that and she loves helping out single mothers because she sees their pain and it's hard. Things like diapers are very expensive. They're not affordable. You don't have to tell me. Right? So we're trying to get our kids to understand that you could buy the Bugatti and we haven't pushed this on our son yet, our daughter more so because she's a little bit older. You can buy the item you really want, but do you really need it?

38:15What is it going to do your life? And after you get it, what's next? Are you really going to be satisfied? Are you going to keep wanting more? But what about that person who can't afford diapers, who couldn't afford that private school tuition that you go to, but they have the IQ and the ability, but they just weren't given the opportunity. If you don't need all this stuff, do you need five vacation homes? No, you could just rent whenever you need it and how can you give back? I'm not saying you have to give everything away, but there's a balance. What is that balance? I think it's gonna be different for each person, but I don't think people need, there are circumstances, but if you're not like an Elon Musk or a Bill Gates, like most people don't need a private plane or to buy one.

38:54You can charter one if you really wanna fly private, right? You don't have to spend 60 million for a plane that's sitting there and barely use. If you're Elon Musk, I get it. But if you're a standard rich person or wealthy person, whatever you want to call it, capital R, little w, you could just charter and you can use some of the other money for good. So because you're such an entrepreneur, if they said to you not$2, it's going to be$3 to dry the dishes. What would you say? I would say why. Why should I give you$3 when I can give someone else$2? So I would say to my son, if he asked me for$3, you say you want$3.

39:36But if I can convince your sister to give it to me for$2, I have someone else who's willing to do it for the same amount. So why should I pay you three? So then he would have to make a pitch. And he makes pitches all the time. So for example, yesterday, my son, when we were counting his money, wanted to turn in $50 of quarters for a$50 bill. Ali had a$100 bill. I started exchanging them for smaller bills because I use them for valet I'm not the best at parallel parking the minivan and as you know in LA there's a lot of parallel parking so I just tend to valet most times so I don't hit cars and when I when I was exchanging the money he said hey you took more and I'm like no I didn't steal any money from you it's even we went through we counted a few times just double check and then he said i'm doing you a favor because i picked his small bills he wanted to give me some of the bigger ones like 20s i wanted more of like the fives and tens and ones and he said because i'm doing you a favor i want two extra dollars and i'm like no i can go to the bank and he's like but you would have to walk to the bank this is you get the money now so then i was like all right and the bank is so close i could have walked but because he's four and that's a good enough argument for four-year-old in my opinion i said sure i gave him the two dollar difference so then i got 98 bucks back for 100 bucks and 50 of it was in quarters this is interesting because it reminds me of something else that you've said this is the idea that in business, you have to understand what the other party wants in order to get a good deal.

41:20So you've said that you would buy your kids a house if they live next door, but not somewhere else. Correct. If they want to live next door to me in LA, same street, I will buy them a house. Same street? That's so aggressive. I'm already looking for the homes on the same street. They're four and six. Yeah, but it's going to cost more 10 years from now. You're going to buy them a house for their future now on your street? No, I'll have them by the house with their own money and their trust. Okay, talk to me about that because you've also said - Assuming the trustees allow it, but yes. Who are the trustees?

41:51Three people, but yeah. Okay, it's an irrevocable trust. Irrevocable trust. It's a dynasty trust. And you've said you regret that. I regret that. Why? The reason I regret that is when I put in the shares of the business, the business was much smaller and it's cash flow. So they A, make cash, but B, the shares are worth a good amount. And I want my kids to still have the hunger where they want to work. And I won't ever tell them that they have money coming from a trust or anything like that. We'll tell them years and years later. They won't listen to this podcast. They won't listen to this podcast because by the time they understand this podcast, you're talking about like 15 years from now, right?

42:34so I just want them to earn it have that drive and hunger and that's a really hard thing to give to kids because they grew up with privilege am I going to cut back on my lifestyle and be like I don't want a theater in my house I don't need a theater in my house but one of my passions as a kid and I always wanted to be in the movie industry I always loved movies and films and television shows I don't really get to watch any of them but I always wanted that that was like a dream as a kid and it works so hard i just want it and when i was on a trip and my wife found a house and she wanted to buy it she's like hey this is a perfect house to check some boxes i forgot where i was i think brazil or something like that i was like if you want it go for it um and when we were going through that process like why should i not have some of the things i've worked so hard for so i could have but then it makes my kids less hungry because they think it's normal it really does so then they don't have the hunger that i had because when i was growing up i had no choice but to figure it out and figure out how to make money because no one was going to give it to it give it to me and i'm not saying i struggled i did not struggle yes i grew up in low income housing and we used to get um free lunch from schools and stuff i forgot what the benefits were called i appreciate the government for giving free uh food to my sister and I and then we also had I had college grants because of low income from parents so I really do appreciate the state and the government for helping me out but where I was getting with this is I had that hunger and drive I didn't have it really tough because eventually my parents saved enough and they were able to give us a leg up because I was able to borrow some of that money for your company yeah yeah but I still had enough hunger and I don't think my kids will have the drive that I did because they don't really have a good sense of reality.

44:27So I'm just trying to teach them a win for me would be if my kids give back and try to help others. I would be very happy with that. So if you could go back, you would have done a revocable instead of irrevocable trust? No, I just would have given them zero and then give it to them as they got older. And then I wouldn't have been able to put as much in the trust because the shares would have been worth more the money would have been you know dollar for dollar usually what people do is they put shares in a company you get valuations but if you know a company's having a good growth rate you're like well 10 years from now it'll be worth a crap load it's great but the problem with that is is i didn't expect the growth rate to keep going and covet to happen and covet really caused the business to boom.

45:15And I felt I just gave them too much where they won't be as hungry. I would love to get into your expertise and give our listeners some advice about digital marketing. Down? I'm down. Okay. So let's talk to small business owners, solopreneurs, creators out there. It's a crazy world right now with AI. If you're, let's say, selling a CPG product and you can only pick one area to realistically invest in an email list, a website or Instagram, what are you picking? Email list, Instagram. And what was the other one? Or you're saying pick any? An email list, Instagram or your website. If you because I think a lot of advice around digital marketing assumes that you have unlimited time and unlimited budget.

46:03Yeah, here's the problem. So if you asked me this question 10 years ago, I would say just pick a website and then build your email list over time and then add other channels but even back then if you couldn't do the other channels a website was enough the problem in today's world is instagram tries to keep you in their ecosystem and gets like a cpg company they try to get you to sell their products within instagram so that way the person's still on instagram and they can monetize it again right so that way meta can keep making money from the same user without them leaving if you look at tiktok same if you look at chat gpt uh partnership with stripe i believe it is or shopify if not both etsy etsy stock went up the moment the partnership was announced and they want to make it where you can just buy within chat gpt if you look at city and paypal yes and they're all doing that and if you're doing amazon amazon wants you to be in their ecosystem get people to keep buying so they can add multiple products and stay there and buy more and more instead of going to your website.

47:04And because of that, the sad reality is, is you can't build a business, a large business just off of Amazon or just off of Instagram or just off of TikTok or just off of your website because platforms try to keep you on their platform. So the reality is, is you need to leverage multiple platforms. Now going back to a CPG company is it cpg or we're doing d2c let's start with cpg if you're doing cpg most of them sell through grocery stores right i would push harder on social media at the beginning and whether you want to choose instagram over tiktok because your ideal audience is on instagram or facebook pick whatever one and you can repurpose the content because they all accept the same format now that content won't do as well because it's not natively built for each platform but that's okay.

47:56Something is better than nothing. And that's where I would start. And D to C direct to consumer. Same. I would do the social platforms. Okay. And you say D to C, their social platforms, or I would do Amazon one or the other to start off with. And you say traditional searches dead. Traditional searches dead. So what's alive? Yeah. So to give you guys a perspective, there's over 50 billion searches that happen a day. Uh, Google owns roughly 27 % of the market share with 13.7 billion searches a day uh instagram is at 6.5 billion searches a day youtube's over 3 billion um chat gpt is roughly a billion apple app store for people watching apps or downloading apps 500 uh million searches a day so google is at the top 13.7 uh-huh Instagram is number two.

48:50Almost half of that. Uh-huh. Amazon is over 3 billion. Okay. Or it's over, yeah, over 3 billion. Search on Amazon, of course, is worth more than Instagram because people are looking for a product to buy versus friends. Now, people on Instagram do look for inspirations and products as well, but it's just a much smaller percentage of the searches. The point I'm getting at is searches everywhere. If you think that someone just goes to Google, does a search and buys, you're not wrong, but that's not the only way people search now. They also discover products on Instagram through search and also seeing content.

49:22They discover through searching and asking chat GPT questions. They discover products through searching on the app store or on Twitter or on Pinterest. It's everywhere and you now have to optimize for all the platforms. So you shouldn't buy Google ads anymore. You should still buy Google ads. You should look at Google ads as if you spend a dollar and you can make profit, not revenue, profit, you should keep doing it. but people had the notion before that you just only need Google ads. It doesn't work well anymore to only do Google ads or only optimize for chat GPT or only do Instagram. If trying to build a business that does a few million bucks or even 10,$20 million or 50 million a year, sure, you can only do Google ads or you could only do Instagram.

50:04But if you want to build a big business, you can't just focus on one channel. you mentioned chat gbt how do you think about aeo versus seo it's very similar so we have a diagram on this there's a lot of similarities if you look at google they care more about content quality than let's say a chat gbt but on the flip side a chat gbt cares more about your structure and your clarity on how quickly they can understand the content than let's say Google will. They both care about freshness. How fresh is the content because no one wants to see outdated information. Google cares more about links like other websites linking to you while ChatGPT and LLMs care about mentions.

50:52How often are people mentioning you and what is the sentiment around that mention? Is it positive? Is it negative? Right? So they're looking at a lot of similar factors. In essence, SEO on Google is very similar to SEO or AEO, whatever you want to call it, answer engine optimization on chat GPT. There's just some slight nuances. So you have to adapt. I've been pitched a bunch of companies to help me with AEO. I'm so confused, which are legit. How should I put my money into it? If I want somebody to ask their favorite, you know, ChatGPT, Perplexity, Gemini, whoever, what's the best financial podcast out there?

51:33And I want us to show up first, obviously. How should I do that? How can I do that? You get people to mention your podcast. So if a lot of bloggers write articles on how you're the number one financial podcast, all these answer engines like LLMs like ChatGPT and Perplexity and Gemini will say that you're the number one financial podcast. So what about these companies that are pitching me AEO services? Do small businesses need help that way by hiring an agency or a company? They could or they could try to do it on their own. The question is, do they have access to a lot of publishers who would be open to hearing about a story on why that company has an amazing product, service, or a podcast, whatever it may be, and talking about them all over the web?

52:23And that is a big part of answer engine optimization that a lot of people struggle with. Because imagine trying to convince 100 publishers per country, assuming you're going multi-language, or if you're just going English, you would have to do US, Canada, UK, Australia. Like it adds up. And trying to convince 100 publishers in each region, you're going to quickly have 500 articles that you have to convince people to write about on how you're the number one podcast for financial news or financial advice. I mean, all of this stuff is changing so quickly. So if you want to be relevant in AEO, what would be the best course of action now?

53:05And what's the biggest myth that you see out there? Yeah. So the biggest myth is you just need to create a lot of content on your own blog talking about how you're amazing. That works in the short run, but as the algorithms adapt and get smarter, and they do adapt, like Reddit used to get a lot more traffic from chat GPT than they do now. When people announced that Reddit gets less traffic, their stock price went down, right? That's an example of algorithm updating. So people believe you can just publish a lot of content on your own site talking about how you're amazing and you'll do well. That kind of is the case, but it won't last.

53:38That's the biggest myth. The first truth to what you had to do really well with AEO is you had to get other people on other sites to mention you, just like the example I gave you of getting - That's for SEO too. That's for SEO too, but SEO, you want the links, not the mention. Mention and a link are two different things. I can talk about how money rehab is amazing. But if I didn't link, that doesn't really help that much with SEO. If I link, that helps with SEO. Now, if I mention you and link, that helps with SEO and AEO. But I can link to you without mentioning your company name. That helps with SEO because I can link to financial advice and link to you, but not mention money rehab.

54:19Are you following me? Yeah, and that's not going to show up on ChatGPT because - That's not going to help really chat GPT, but that's going to help with SEO. Okay. So you got to get the mentions. You can either do outreach yourself to a lot of people in your space and build relationships or hire someone who has those relationships. The next thing that you have to do is publish really good content. The reason you do well isn't just the promotion side. The real honest truth is your podcast does well because the information is good. That's the most important part. If the information sucked, you can do all the promotion in the world.

54:51You may climb to the top of the charts, but then you're going to fall down. It's just a question of what I'm assuming you agree with this. Totally. You can't market your way out of a product. You can't. So you got to create good content and content that makes you look like authority. These LLMs know that there's a lot of fake information out there. How do they know who's good and who's bad? The only really way is based on their authority. And the reason I say that is there's too many variables that show the good stuff is good and the bad stuff is bad. And I'm going to use politics as an example, or actually I'll use a COVID vaccine, kind of political, but I don't mean to be political.

55:28And I'm not going to give you my opinion on the vaccine, but when the vaccine first came out, would you agree there was a lot of people saying, you can't be an anti-vaxxer. This is great for you. This is what it's going to do. Pfizer is doing this and doctors all saying you need it. I'm assuming you agree with that. For sure. Right? But at this flip side, you also saw a lot of people saying, you can't take the vaccine. There's not enough data on it. It hasn't been researched enough. You're going to get disease. Your fertility is going to go down, all sorts of stuff. Yep. There was enough people on both sides that had the signals of people linking to each viewpoint.

56:00That's a signal. There's also a lot of people social sharing each viewpoint as well. The good or not the four backs and pro and the con. Yeah, that's easier to put it. Thank you. And you also had people on television talking about both sides. But if you're just looking from the aspect of time on page, because they have the data from the browsers, if you look at social shares and links, the pro and the cons had both of them. So how do these platforms know which ones to choose? Assuming there's no interference from a third party like a government or something like that saying, hey, we want you to force your hand and choose that, which Zuckerberg came out and said that.

56:37I don't know if you saw that in which the government kind of pushed him to go a certain way with all the COVID stuff. And what I'm getting at is these LLMs, if they're using algorithms and signals, which is what they do, it's hard for them to know what is right or wrong because you have signals on both ends. But if President Trump or Biden or Obama, I'm not trying to skew left or right, say something about marketing, most people will say that's a president. whether left or right a president doesn't specialize in marketing right but if they say look at neil he's really good out he's a marketer and he's saying something about marketing the lms know my background is marketing i've been doing this for 20 years so when i talk about seo i should know more than president trump or president obama or biden but on the flip side if neil wants to talk about politics they'll say hey neil's not a politician what the heck does he about this president trump or president biden or obama they know more about politics than neil does we should take his opinions right and the same goes with politicians who aren't them i don't know much about politics i know there's levels underneath them you know just like there's marketers who are above me and have more experience and are better than me but um whoever that person is these platforms will look at trust and you gotta really put out good content to build that trust and build that authority.

58:07So that way you're respected by the platforms and they keep pushing you. And you can get that trust by follows, continue pushing out good information, having people say good things about you, speaking at events, getting press for your name. This all helps you build up authority. You can do this for an individual and you can do that for a company as well. But they both help you get cited by the LLMs because it creates what's called E, E-E-A-T, experience, expertise, authority, and trust by creating a lot of good information, putting it out there. That's what you're building up that these platforms love.

58:39And let's bring it back to earth. If somebody's side hustle is bringing in like 2K a month, what's an SEO or AEO change that they could make to try and double that money? And if they don't have a huge budget, where would you start? You can go to ChatGPT and use their free app and have them help you write content on things that you think you should educate your potential customer on related to questions they may face. So I'll actually break it down step-by-step to make it super simple. We have a free tool called Answer the Public. You can type in any keyword related to your industry. It shows you all the questions people are typing in and answering.

59:16You can take those keywords, put it into ChatGPT, and ask them to write your article solving that question. Answer the Public will show you what's up and coming and trending on the questions people are asking right now. Not from a year ago, not from five years ago, literally from right now today. You create content on that by asking ChatGPT to write your article on it. You review it to make sure it's accurate. And then you just upload it to your WordPress and click a publish button and ask your friends, no joke, to share it on LinkedIn. And you can share it yourself on LinkedIn and X and some of the social profiles.

59:48You may not get the play that you're looking for, but a lot of these LLMs like ChatGPT have data deals with these players. So then it'll start feeding their system and you will start getting mentioned more. and you can do this for like 10, 20 articles and it doesn't cost any money. And it doesn't matter what website, like it could be your own WordPress. It could be - Yeah, you own WordPress. You can publish it on Tumblr or what's that? I don't think people use Tumblr, but there's another one that one of the Twitter founders created, Ev Williams. I forgot what it was called. Oh, Medium. Medium.

1:00:23You can publish on Medium, right? You can pick whatever you want. You can even publish it on LinkedIn, straight up that article because a lot of these LLMs in Google are pulling from LinkedIn. Okay. And that'll help you get mentioned more because you're talking about your products and your services. I mean, I, as a business owner, worry when I think about investing in SEO or AO, buying ads that I'm lighting money on fire. What's a surefire way to light your money on fire when you're trying to optimize for digital marketing? The surefire way is to start by spending money on ads. ads are great, but the problem that most people have is they haven't figured out their funnel.

1:01:04So you want to build your traffic organically. You want to go on Instagram. You want to go on LinkedIn, build an audience, then promote your two grand a month business. I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean, that's amazing that you're at two grand a month, whoever it may be that's listening and try to get it to three or four grand. You then want to get feedback from your customers. How can I make my product better? What's wrong with my messaging? How can I make it more clear? How can I put in more reviews and ratings to build trust? You'll notice as time, as you start talking to customers, you'll get feedback.

1:01:34You take that feedback and you improve your business. When I say improve your business, not just your product and service, but also your messaging, your images, because they'll tell you what issues they have with your product or your company or why they chose to buy from you. And if you could make the changes that they're talking about, assuming you get enough feedback, so you're making changes based on the majority, not just based on one person, what you'll find is your conversion numbers will go up. When I say conversion numbers, if 100 people visit your website and only 100, one buy, that's a 1 % conversion.

1:02:04Now, if on average two buy, you're at 2%. When you're able to convince more people who saw your, you know, your storefront to actually go through the door and make a purchase, it's much more easier to make your ads profitable because you have a higher conversion rate. Because before, if you're spending$10 for a customer, now two people are actually buying so if you spent ten dollars and got a hundred visitors and only one bot you spent ten dollars for a customer now because you've optimized your site two out of a hundred buy now you spent ten dollars for two customers which is five bucks a customer which make your unit economics better what if i want to hire you how much is it uh me directly or my company your company sure so uh we have an s &b division and people can pay us all the way in the low thousands of dollars a month all the way up to we have packages well into the millions of dollars what if i want to hire you i've had really good offers well into the eight figures a year including stock comp from uh well-known companies that everyone uses every single day and you've said now?

1:03:19No, because then it takes away the freedom and flexibility in life. Also, what am I going to do with the money? My wife's good. But what if I ask you so nicely and put you on a show? Usually when people ask me really nicely, I'd be like, I don't want to work for anyone, but I'll help you out for free. And then I just give them advice and then they learn. And then, you know, it also gives me things to do throughout the day. And you do give advice on your social. So if somebody wants to ask you a question, Like you're answering stuff all the time. Usually my team is just to be very transparent. But yeah, someone is answering the questions.

1:03:54Well, thank you for all this free advice. I feel like if we were on the clock, I would get a bill that I would not want. So Neil, we end all of our episodes by asking our guests for a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. It can be anything. A final tip on saving, investing, digital marketing, growth marketing. Sure. I'm going to give you guys a money tip if that's okay. to the right place yes i i had a conversation with um my trainer the other day and he's telling me how he's paying off his home faster and i'm meeting a lot of people in the last few months of like you know we think things are going to start picking up i'm going to start trying to pay off my home faster i'm like you got a two percent interest rate that you had from years ago do not pay off your home drag it out as long as you can if you have an interest rate that's dirt cheap do not pay off your home first that should be the last thing because you'll make more money just keeping your money in a bank account if you want no risk and pay off high yield account sure uh then you would from paying off your home or you make more money if you're just willing to put in the s &p 500 and just hold it for five ten years not a year not two years because things can go down but you know and i'm not i'm not saying i'm guaranteeing this i just want to give that asterisk but typically if you look at education education the s &p produces better returns than 2%.

1:05:12If you just look at historically, you're better off putting your money in there from a historical standpoint than paying off cheap debt. And I don't know why a lot of people want to be debt free. And they believe that's freedom. And they're trying to pay off really cheap debt. And that's like one of the worst things you can do financially. Even me, I have a mortgage, believe it or not, because I get really killer deals on mortgages. Like my mortgage, did you You know, there's banks that have programs. I use CABC. I can change my mortgage rate anytime I want by just calling them for$1 ,500. They will change the rate to whatever new market rate is, and they're aggressive on rates.

1:05:49But it could be more on their private banking side that they do that. So you're borrowing against, I'm assuming, securities to get your mortgage? Home. Yeah, so like assets. I have a traditional mortgage, but a lot of banks will just do interest only for me. So I never have to pay down the principal and the rate is so cheap because I'm not paying like 6 % or whatever most people are paying. So what you're talking about is the 6 % rule. So if your debt is lower than 6%, it's more advantageous to invest in the historic 7 % to 10 % return that you would get in the stock market. So it's a simple rule.

1:06:28so or let me rephrase right now based on today's uh 10-year right because mortgages are based off a 10-year i can probably get a mortgage rate of around 4.7 something percent interest only on a mortgage if i believe i can make more than 4.75 percent why wouldn't i just keep reinvesting my money somewhere else right but we're telling your trainer would be like the six percent or 5 % threshold like anything below that yes don't and and they have debt on other things like they got new veneers and they're paying higher rates on their veneers and I'm like pay the money off on the veneer and they're trying to train me and get me to lift more weights and I'm just getting really bothered that they're paying off a home at 2 % instead of their veneers which much higher and I'm like I'm just getting really irritated and I'm like pay off your car loan first I'm like This is backwards.

1:07:25It's the money we have right there.